NationStates Jolt Archive

I was just curious if this is love or not. If a boyfriend tells his girlfriend to love him or he is going to physically harm her, is that love? I am getting the message from scripture that that is the case. I should strive to be like God Yes? OR should I do as God says and not as he does? The reason I ask is the lesson that God is giving me in scripture. He created us and then says if we do not do as he says and we do not love him then he is going to cast us into an eternal hell with fire and torture. For some reason it just strikes me as tyranical in nature and not really loving but I have been told not to doubt the word of God so this must be true love to threaten people and make them love you or else.

I figured maybe what we consider abusive boyfriends are really very loving and just acting like God does.

That's not love - it's coercion

I was just curious if this is love or not. If a boyfriend tells his girlfriend to love him or he is going to physically harm her, is that love? I am getting the message from scripture that that is the case. I should strive to be like God Yes? OR should I do as God says and not as he does? The reason I ask is the lesson that God is giving me in scripture. He created us and then says if we do not do as he says and we do not love him then he is going to cast us into an eternal hell with fire and torture. For some reason it just strikes me as tyranical in nature and not really loving but I have been told not to doubt the word of God so this must be true love to threaten people and make them love you or else.

I figured maybe what we consider abusive boyfriends are really very loving and just acting like God does.
Like many others who read the Bible, you have apparently read one small portion. Like many "compiled works," the Bible must be read in its entirety before any specific passage can be understood in context. :)

Like many others who read the Bible, you have apparently read one small portion. Like many "compiled works," the Bible must be read in its entirety before any specific passage can be understood in context. :)


Read the entire thing a couple times. The message seems pretty clear either you are with God or you are against him.

If you are with him you get heaven if you are against him you get hell??

Am I missing something?

Oh yeah then he says he loves you but then he says he hates people too so.

Check out 1 Corinthians 13:
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
Also, Peter:
"Husbands, likewise, dwell with your wives with understanding, giving honor to the wife."
Kind of rules out the whole violence thing. Love is those things. I think (and I'm prepared for others to disagree with me, I don't mind) that the Corinthians passage is a really good description of love, whether you're a Christian or not. That's what I would reach for in a loving relationship.

Check out 1 Corinthians 13:
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
Also, Peter:
"Husbands, likewise, dwell with your wives with understanding, giving honor to the wife."
Kind of rules out the whole violence thing. Love is those things. I think (and I'm prepared for others to disagree with me, I don't mind) that the Corinthians passage is a really good description of love, whether you're a Christian or not. That's what I would reach for in a loving relationship.

OH it keeps no record of wrongs how nice. What a perfect example of a dictator saying here is how you should act but I will keep a record of wrongs and in fact I will send you to eternal hell unless you do as I say.

I guess then God is not love at all not by his own word.

Why strive to be like God? When was the last time he helped you to save a burning building? When was the last time he tried to do *ANYTHING* to help us?


If you are with him you get heaven if you are against him you get hell??

Am I missing something?

Oh yeah then he says he loves you but then he says he hates people too so.

Yes, you're missing something huge. If your a Christian, that's a free ticket to heaven, even if you are a guy who repeatedly abused the chillun', and never repented.

But if you ever becme homosexual, or aren't a Christian, or call Jesus a stoner (hehe, go google it or summat, see what you find) or even worse... BLACK! It's straight to hell. Goodbye!

OH it keeps no record of wrongs how nice. What a perfect example of a dictator saying here is how you should act but I will keep a record of wrongs and in fact I will send you to eternal hell unless you do as I say.

I guess then God is not love at all not by his own word.


Well, no. But one thing that the Bible teaches us all is that God tends to lie a lot. And is a shifty little wanker, too.

It breaks my heart to see my Father and Savior so misunderstood. It isn't God who desires to destroy. He made provision for and desires all to be saved and at the cost of His own life no less. The only way to miss out on that is by personal choice and that choice is to cut one's self off from the only source of life in the universe. You can't really live when you chose that.

He has tried over and over to give us all everything we need and still so many of us refuse Him. I just don't understand how anyone can blame God for the situation. It is sin, evil and willful seperation from God that causes pain, suffering, destruction and death and still people chose to follow Lucifer's deceptions. I is just so sad.

Yes, you're missing something huge. If your a Christian, that's a free ticket to heaven, even if you are a guy who repeatedly abused the chillun', and never repented.

But if you ever becme homosexual, or aren't a Christian, or call Jesus a stoner (hehe, go google it or summat, see what you find) or even worse... BLACK! It's straight to hell. Goodbye!

That's fanaticism you speak of, not true religion.

What everyone else speaks of about how the Bible demands your love of God or else...Well...That is why I don't read the Bible.

The Bible is a text written through the words of man. I will not turn to something so fickle as man to find God. We must find God in ourselves.

Peace be with you.

(Grabs soda...Looks up Yaoi and Yuri mangas)

I was just curious if this is love or not. If a boyfriend tells his girlfriend to love him or he is going to physically harm her, is that love? I am getting the message from scripture that that is the case. I should strive to be like God Yes? OR should I do as God says and not as he does? The reason I ask is the lesson that God is giving me in scripture. He created us and then says if we do not do as he says and we do not love him then he is going to cast us into an eternal hell with fire and torture. For some reason it just strikes me as tyranical in nature and not really loving but I have been told not to doubt the word of God so this must be true love to threaten people and make them love you or else.

I figured maybe what we consider abusive boyfriends are really very loving and just acting like God does.


That's not love. It's a threat. What part of scripture do you get this from? Maybe I can help.

Matthew

That's fanaticism you speak of, not true religion.

What everyone else speaks of about how the Bible demands your love of God or else...Well...That is why I don't read the Bible.

The Bible is a text written through the words of man. I will not turn to something so fickle as man to find God. We must find God in ourselves.

Peace be with you.

(Grabs soda...Looks up Yaoi and Yuri mangas)


Good job Bolol! I have always viewed the Bible as a guidebook, not a rulebook. And yes, it was written by man, but it still has many good principles.

And I agree, that's fanaticism. You beat your children or beat your wife you WILL find God. But not in the sense of salvation. You get me?

Matthew

Well, no. But one thing that the Bible teaches us all is that God tends to lie a lot. And is a shifty little wanker, too.

where, when and how does he lie?? god speaks the truth but PEOPLE cloud his words.

Might I suggest a pastor, priest or theologian who is far more educated on matters of scripture than we are? If you're looking to draw a life moral from biblical scripture, the NS forums aren't really the place to find it, methinks.

Might I suggest a pastor, priest or theologian who is far more educated on matters of scripture than we are? If you're looking to draw a life moral from biblical scripture, the NS forums aren't really the place to find it, methinks.

Haha! Good point. But, that's the beauty. A pastor may be biased, by posting here, you get alot of different viewpoints.

Not saying you shouldn't talk to one however.

I was just curious if this is love or not. If a boyfriend tells his girlfriend to love him or he is going to physically harm her, is that love? I am getting the message from scripture that that is the case. I should strive to be like God Yes? OR should I do as God says and not as he does? The reason I ask is the lesson that God is giving me in scripture. He created us and then says if we do not do as he says and we do not love him then he is going to cast us into an eternal hell with fire and torture. For some reason it just strikes me as tyranical in nature and not really loving but I have been told not to doubt the word of God so this must be true love to threaten people and make them love you or else.

I figured maybe what we consider abusive boyfriends are really very loving and just acting like God does.

Mistakes you make

1) God does not "send" anyone to hell. Hell was created for the devil to be punished in

the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels

people would go to hell anyway. Its not like you would go to heaven if God didnt send you to hell. Its you would go to hell unless God saved you

2) God only asks of us a very basic set of things if we wish to be with him in heaven.

A- That you have sinned/done wrong/been bad etc
B- That you cannot deal with the implications of said sins yourself
C- That you need a power beyond your understanding (God) to deal with it
D- That there is a God beyond your understanding who wants to and can deal with it.
E- Having accepted that you are in the wrong (sinned) you need to do something about it.

There are reasons for these which are simple

A) If you refuse to accept that you are in the wrong, you are being immature, believeing that you are perfect, and on a par with God. I dont think anyone can be as stupid to claim that they have never done anything wrong in their lives.

B) If you believe that you can deal with it yourself then you are very blind and immature, believeing that you can somehow redeem yourself by being good enough for God by your achivements. While your achievements now may be great, they do not remove any previous sins you have done. You cannot remove sins of your own power.

C&D) If you refuse to believe that there is a God and that he can and is willing to help you then what right do you have to expect any help from him. Thats rather like a friend sending you a letter attmepting to console you over a recent traumatic event, you sending a letter back to them saying you refuse to believe they exist and then expecting them to continue being friendly to you. God is there and God is willing. If you dont believe he exists he wont help you. It's the old line "Atheists don't believe in God don't they. Well God doesnt believe in Athiests". Why exactly should God help you if you dont believe he exists and that he can help you.

E) If you are aware of your sin (and if you are not you are very ignorent, see points A and B) and the fact that but do nothing about it, its rather like wearing the same clothes for an entire year despite having a full wardrobe and a fully working washing machine and a years supply of Ariel tablets. If you refuse to do anything about you sin, its akin to not accepting it is there in the first place and that is just ignorent (see point A)

where, when and how does he lie?? god speaks the truth but PEOPLE cloud his words.


The bible ( allegedly the perfect word of God ) says God is a deceiver and basically a liar.

The Bible says (Jeremiah xx, 7) that God is a deceiver. "O Lord (says Jeremiah) thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed."

Jeremiah not only upbraids God with deceiving him, but, in iv, 10, he upbraids God with deceiving the people of Jerusalem. "Ah! Lord God (says he), surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ye shall have peace, whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul."

In xv, 18, the Bible becomes more impudent, and calls God in plain language, a liar. "Wilt thou (says Jeremiah to God) be altogether unto me as a liar and as waters that fail?"

Ezekiel xiv, 9, makes God to say - "If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet." All this is downright blasphemy.

The prophet Micaiah, as he is called, II Chron. xviii, 18-21, tells another blasphemous story of God. "I saw," says he, "the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the hosts of Heaven standing on His right hand and on His left. And the Lord said, who shall entice Ahab, King of Israel, to go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead? And one spoke after this manner, and another after that manner.

Now it will take a book or two and a seasoned apologist to correctly rationalize this further demonstrating that the bible is hogwash.

God has men write a book that requires more special books to decode its true meaning?? I have pretty good reasoning skills and ummm the verses above are pretty clear.

If someone disputes them then I ask why didn't God make himself clear?
If you say it is clear then God is indeed a liar and a deciever.

I vote the bible was written by men for control over the weakminded. When under the light of scrutiny it not only falls short of divine but it is poorly written even by man standard of reasoning.

Let me ask a question.

Eternity? Forever, right?

Does anyone, no matter how evil, deserve to suffer forever for the crimes commited in maybe...75 years.

75 years is a blink compared to eternity.

Let me ask a question.

Eternity? Forever, right?

Does anyone, no matter how evil, deserve to suffer forever for the crimes commited in maybe...75 years.

75 years is a blink compared to eternity.

You do not understand it is not God doing it it is man doing it.

Kinda like this A boyfriend says to his girlfriend with a gun to her head and says "love me or I will shoot you." The girlfriend says " No you tyranical monster never" *BANG* the boyfriend responds " See what you made me do"

Yes as you can see clearly the boyfriend did nothing wrong he did warn her first that he would shoot if she did not love him.

It is entirely the girlfriends fault. The boyfriend begged and pleaded for her to love him but to no avail. **SIGH**

I was just curious if this is love or not. If a boyfriend tells his girlfriend to love him or he is going to physically harm her, is that love? I am getting the message from scripture that that is the case. I should strive to be like God Yes? OR should I do as God says and not as he does? The reason I ask is the lesson that God is giving me in scripture. He created us and then says if we do not do as he says and we do not love him then he is going to cast us into an eternal hell with fire and torture. For some reason it just strikes me as tyranical in nature and not really loving but I have been told not to doubt the word of God so this must be true love to threaten people and make them love you or else.

I figured maybe what we consider abusive boyfriends are really very loving and just acting like God does.
As Eutrusca said, you must read EVERYTHING, not just one miniscule passage and declare that it is the rule.

I'm also curious as to what passage you are reading.

The first thing that no one understands about Christianity is that God does NOT want to send you to hell. He wants you to be in heaven. So you are entirely correct, that isn't love. But that's not God. The circumstances surrounding heaven and himself require that he send you to hell. I'll explain that in a second.
The entire point of Jesus was so that we COULD go to heaven. So many athiests get all upset, and say, "Well, if God wants us to go to heaven, he should have made a way for everyone to get in!" Well, duh, that's what Jesus is. The entire point of his sacrifice was so that everyone could get into heaven. I mean, consider the most often quoted Bible verse, John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he sent his only son, so that anyone who believes in him will not perish, but live forever!" THAT is love.

Now about heaven. Heaven is, of course, perfect! It is paradise, it is everything that Eden was, and more! Not only is Heaven perfect, but you are with a perfect, loving God. A God whose love is so perfect that he is the physical embodyment of love! But if heaven is perfect, that means that if you aren't perfect, you can't be allowed to come in. It's simple math...if you have a million 100%s and you add even one 99%, the average is not longer 100%. That is why even the best person in the world can't get into heaven. It's not about being good, it's about being perfect. Now, God really wants everyone to come to heaven, but he can only let in perfect people. If he lets anyone else in, it won't be perfect anymore, and then it won't be heaven anymore.
Think about Eden. Eden was perfect, and then Adam and Eve sinned...just once, just one sin, and it ruined everything for everyone. One slip, one mistake, and paradise was lost to humanity. God cannot allow that to happen to heaven.
But last time I checked, no one was perfect, so heaven would be a very lonely place. But that's where Jesus comes in. His sacrifice, should you accept it, makes you perfect! Jesus wipes away all the sin of your life and makes you acceptable to heaven. And it's so easy to do, all you have to do is believe in him! So many people accuse God of sending us all to hell, but it's so easy to avoid it! Personally, I don't see what's so hard about just believing in Jesus. Even if it was incredibly unfair, it's still so easy to avoid.

The other thing people fail to realize about Jesus' sacrifice is that it is a gift. It is not something you deserve, it is not something you earn, and God is under no obligation whatsoever to give it to you. Quite frankly, it is our own damn fault we're going to hell (pun intended). So when you curse at God, remember that all you're doing is hurting yourself. God does not need you. Despite attempts to prove otherwise, God's existence does not depend on you believing in him. You have NO RIGHT at all to demand salvation from God. Your salvation depends entirely on whether or not God wants to save you. And if you think that's unfair, A) you don't get anything I've said so far, but more importantly, who are you to tell God what's fair and what's not? You can whine and complain about how mean and nasty God is, but in the end, it's you who's burning in hell, not him. If God wanted to, he could smite you right now, send you to hell, and forget you ever existed. So when you think that believing in Jesus is such a hard thing to do, you might want to try just a bit harder.
Luckily for all of us, God isn't like that. He might not need us, but he definitely wants us. He created us specifically so that he could love us and we could love him. This isn't some case of an egotistical god who wanted subjects to rule over, or a mass of people to worship him and stoke his flaming ego. He wanted to share his glory and power, to share life itself. Yes, he wants us to love him, but he wants to love us back. He's no different than loving parents who want their children to love them back. So even though we deserve to go to hell, every one of us, he gave us a way to avoid hell. He wants us to be in heaven, in paradise, in perfection, with him.

And therein lies the last major point of Christianity that most people, including a great many Christians, don't understand. Christianity is NOT about hell. It is not about avoiding hell, it isn't about just getting into heaven because it's not hell. Jesus did not die so we wouldn't go to hell. Jesus died so that we would go to heaven. Hell is mentioned some 15 times in the entire Bible, 23 including "hades." When you think about the vast number of verses in the Bible, that's not very much. Death, 454. Die, 284. Hate, 75.
Compare that to Heaven, 410! Life, 561. Live, 620. Love, 511. Note also that most of those "death" references will be a physical death, not spiritual. So you can still "die" and go to heaven.
Hell, contrary to popular belief, is not God's threat. He's not waving it over your head, "Love me or else!" He is just showing you the alternative. Yes, you can disobey God, he's saying, but just know that if you do, this is what happens. God isn't punishing you for not loving him! God is punishing you for sinning! "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 6:23). If you never sinned, you wouldn't have to love God or even believe in Jesus, and you could still get into heaven. God doesn't send you to hell in spite, he sends you to hell because, although he is loving, he is also Just. When people do something wrong, they have to be punished for it, and God has to punish you, even though he doesn't want to. Again, this is where Jesus comes in. Jesus took the punishment for you, so you don't have to. You sinned, Jesus died. So again, when you curse God for being unfair, remember that Jesus' situation wasn't very fair either, was it?
God doesn't want you to go to hell because that means you won't be in heaven with him. Remember, he made you so he could share paradise. That's hard to do when you're in hell. God doesn't want you to go to hell, because he doesn't want you to suffer, but even more he wants you to go to heaven to be with him.

So in short, we should be going to hell because we sin, just like a man who steals should go to jail. But God loved us enough to send his son to go to hell for us, wiping us clean so we were pure enough to go to heaven.

Let me ask a question.

Eternity? Forever, right?

Does anyone, no matter how evil, deserve to suffer forever for the crimes commited in maybe...75 years.

75 years is a blink compared to eternity.

You cant say God is reletive. The nature of God is something we cant fully understand. We can understand some but no where near all. Because of the nature of sin and the nature of God this is just. Plus God has given us all rather an easy solution. Jesus's death and the 5 points I have raised combined save you.

As Eutrusca said, you must read EVERYTHING, not just one miniscule passage and declare that it is the rule.

I'm also curious as to what passage you are reading.

The first thing that no one understands about Christianity is that God does NOT want to send you to hell. He wants you to be in heaven. So you are entirely correct, that isn't love. But that's not God. The circumstances surrounding heaven and himself require that he send you to hell. I'll explain that in a second.
The entire point of Jesus was so that we COULD go to heaven. So many athiests get all upset, and say, "Well, if God wants us to go to heaven, he should have made a way for everyone to get in!" Well, duh, that's what Jesus is. The entire point of his sacrifice was so that everyone could get into heaven. I mean, consider the most often quoted Bible verse, John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he sent his only son, so that anyone who believes in him will not perish, but live forever!" THAT is love.

Now about heaven. Heaven is, of course, perfect! It is paradise, it is everything that Eden was, and more! Not only is Heaven perfect, but you are with a perfect, loving God. A God whose love is so perfect that he is the physical embodyment of love! But if heaven is perfect, that means that if you aren't perfect, you can't be allowed to come in. It's simple math...if you have a million 100%s and you add even one 99%, the average is not longer 100%. That is why even the best person in the world can't get into heaven. It's not about being good, it's about being perfect. Now, God really wants everyone to come to heaven, but he can only let in perfect people. If he lets anyone else in, it won't be perfect anymore, and then it won't be heaven anymore.
Think about Eden. Eden was perfect, and then Adam and Eve sinned...just once, just one sin, and it ruined everything for everyone. One slip, one mistake, and paradise was lost to humanity. God cannot allow that to happen to heaven.
But last time I checked, no one was perfect, so heaven would be a very lonely place. But that's where Jesus comes in. His sacrifice, should you accept it, makes you perfect! Jesus wipes away all the sin of your life and makes you acceptable to heaven. And it's so easy to do, all you have to do is believe in him! So many people accuse God of sending us all to hell, but it's so easy to avoid it! Personally, I don't see what's so hard about just believing in Jesus. Even if it was incredibly unfair, it's still so easy to avoid.

The other thing people fail to realize about Jesus' sacrifice is that it is a gift. It is not something you deserve, it is not something you earn, and God is under no obligation whatsoever to give it to you. Quite frankly, it is our own damn fault we're going to hell (pun intended). So when you curse at God, remember that all you're doing is hurting yourself. God does not need you. Despite attempts to prove otherwise, God's existence does not depend on you believing in him. You have NO RIGHT at all to demand salvation from God. Your salvation depends entirely on whether or not God wants to save you. And if you think that's unfair, A) you don't get anything I've said so far, but more importantly, who are you to tell God what's fair and what's not? You can whine and complain about how mean and nasty God is, but in the end, it's you who's burning in hell, not him. If God wanted to, he could smite you right now, send you to hell, and forget you ever existed. So when you think that believing in Jesus is such a hard thing to do, you might want to try just a bit harder.
Luckily for all of us, God isn't like that. He might not need us, but he definitely wants us. He created us specifically so that he could love us and we could love him. This isn't some case of an egotistical god who wanted subjects to rule over, or a mass of people to worship him and stoke his flaming ego. He wanted to share his glory and power, to share life itself. Yes, he wants us to love him, but he wants to love us back. He's no different than loving parents who want their children to love them back. So even though we deserve to go to hell, every one of us, he gave us a way to avoid hell. He wants us to be in heaven, in paradise, in perfection, with him.

And therein lies the last major point of Christianity that most people, including a great many Christians, don't understand. Christianity is NOT about hell. It is not about avoiding hell, it isn't about just getting into heaven because it's not hell. Jesus did not die so we wouldn't go to hell. Jesus died so that we would go to heaven. Hell is mentioned some 15 times in the entire Bible, 23 including "hades." When you think about the vast number of verses in the Bible, that's not very much. Death, 454. Die, 284. Hate, 75.
Compare that to Heaven, 410! Life, 561. Live, 620. Love, 511. Note also that most of those "death" references will be a physical death, not spiritual. So you can still "die" and go to heaven.
Hell, contrary to popular belief, is not God's threat. He's not waving it over your head, "Love me or else!" He is just showing you the alternative. Yes, you can disobey God, he's saying, but just know that if you do, this is what happens. God isn't punishing you for not loving him! God is punishing you for sinning! "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom 6:23). If you never sinned, you wouldn't have to love God or even believe in Jesus, and you could still get into heaven. God doesn't send you to hell in spite, he sends you to hell because, although he is loving, he is also Just. When people do something wrong, they have to be punished for it, and God has to punish you, even though he doesn't want to. Again, this is where Jesus comes in. Jesus took the punishment for you, so you don't have to. You sinned, Jesus died. So again, when you curse God for being unfair, remember that Jesus' situation wasn't very fair either, was it?
God doesn't want you to go to hell because that means you won't be in heaven with him. Remember, he made you so he could share paradise. That's hard to do when you're in hell. God doesn't want you to go to hell, because he doesn't want you to suffer, but even more he wants you to go to heaven to be with him.

So in short, we should be going to hell because we sin, just like a man who steals should go to jail. But God loved us enough to send his son to go to hell for us, wiping us clean so we were pure enough to go to heaven.


It is not a threat?? Hmmm I think I have established through reason that it is indeed a threat.

The biblegod is a tyrant and knows not love if he will send creatures to an eternity of torture for exercising their free will.

Ever think of how unreasonable the bible story is?

God came to Moses? oh yeah and a few other alleged people who claim they heard from God with evidence whatsoever. We are just supposed to take their word for it. Excuse me for not wanting to listen to the rantings of a lunatic that says that God spoke directly to them.

Plus I thought God was fair and his creation was all equal?? If he speaks to you and not to me then that is not equal is it?

I would suggest reading where God sends bears to maul little kids for calling a prophet baldy and tell me how very much he loves and cares for people,

Tell me now how the little children in Sodom were unworthy and deserved to be slain and little infants that could not even know anything.

They were being punished for their parents sins???? I can go on and on with the absurdity of the bible.

I cannot understand how one can reason it reasonable.

You cant say God is reletive. The nature of God is something we cant fully understand. We can understand some but no where near all. Because of the nature of sin and the nature of God this is just. Plus God has given us all rather an easy solution. Jesus's death and the 5 points I have raised combined save you.

Still doesn't seem right...

It is not a threat?? Hmmm I think I have established through reason that it is indeed a threat.

Ok heres a metaphor for you

I was on duty on the Coast Guard Rescue boat the other morning, when I spotted what I thought was drowning woman. A mile or so off shore, she was treading water and looked quite weary and dehydrated. We sped over to help her, but she swam away from the life preservers we tossed her, she wouldn't grab hold of the lifeguard hooks we extended to her, and she swam away from the life raft and swimmers we sent out to help her. It was bizarre.

I asked her if she wanted some help--actually expecting her to be relieved and even grateful, and she screamed "no, go away!"--even though every now and then she would literally sink under water for a few minutes at a time, and come up frantically gasping for air. She said she was "doing fine without help", and that she intended to stay out there forever like that, just "doing fine".

I pointed out to her that she looked exhausted, dehydrated, seemed ready to drown any minute, and that she would be too tired to make it to shore if she waited much later--and she denied it. She said it wasn't really all that bad, that she had made it okay so far on her own, and that she could no doubt keep it up indefinitely.

I told her I thought she obviously needed medical attention, rest, water, and she refused. She said she was her "own person" and that I could not force her to get out of the water. I told her, cautiously--since she would go ballistic whenever I tried to help her--that I didn't think she was in any mental state to be able to make such decisions, and that I would have to subdue her and force her into the boat--for her own good. And you should have heard the curses, threats of lawsuits, murder, suicide from her...as she constantly kept swimming away from our boat and from our every attempt to rescue her...

I kept sending people out, but she kept evading them...I offered and begged and offered and pleaded and offered and implored...and she railed and railed and railed...and always swam away further...and about sundown she went under for the last time...why wouldn't she accept the free help? I'll never know...I was in anguish for weeks and weeks over this senseless loss...



I cannot understand how one can reason it reasonable.

Did you actually READ any of RhynoD's post? I sincerely doubt it from the immiturity of your response. Go read it and then deal with the individual points, rather than just glazing over in a vain attempt to look intellegent.

Still doesn't seem right...

What is wrong with my 5 points exactly. No one seems to quote them so I assume I'm being ignored for no good reason.

The bible ( allegedly the perfect word of God ) says God is a deceiver and basically a liar.

The Bible says (Jeremiah xx, 7) that God is a deceiver. "O Lord (says Jeremiah) thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed."

Jeremiah not only upbraids God with deceiving him, but, in iv, 10, he upbraids God with deceiving the people of Jerusalem. "Ah! Lord God (says he), surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ye shall have peace, whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul."

In xv, 18, the Bible becomes more impudent, and calls God in plain language, a liar. "Wilt thou (says Jeremiah to God) be altogether unto me as a liar and as waters that fail?"
First off, READ THE CONTEXT!
And, just because he's calling God a liar, that doesn't make him right, you know. I can call you any number of things, but just because I say them, it does not make them true. There are many many examples in the Bible of what NOT to do.
Also, there could be some SARCASM in there. Jeremiah was probably ticked at something God did. I need to read it more, but it appears to me that God said something, Jeremiah was stupid and took it the wrong way, and now he's trying to blame God. Note that the heading to that passage is "Jeremiah's Complaint."

Ezekiel xiv, 9, makes God to say - "If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet." All this is downright blasphemy.
S'not what I have. :rolleyes:
" 'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel."

The prophet Micaiah, as he is called, II Chron. xviii, 18-21, tells another blasphemous story of God. "I saw," says he, "the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the hosts of Heaven standing on His right hand and on His left. And the Lord said, who shall entice Ahab, King of Israel, to go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead? And one spoke after this manner, and another after that manner.
Eh? :confused:

Now it will take a book or two and a seasoned apologist to correctly rationalize this further demonstrating that the bible is hogwash.
And it would take five intelligent Christians to demonstrate quite a bit of Atheistic dogma to be hogwash. Bash the Bible all you want, but all the hogwash having to with the Bible is the hogwash of people thinking they're smarter than God.
Oh, and if you don't have anything intelligent to add to the argument, don't bother saying anything.

God has men write a book that requires more special books to decode its true meaning?? I have pretty good reasoning skills and ummm the verses above are pretty clear.
I can understand it pretty well. Perhaps this passage will explain a bit...
11The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
And it's no different than any of the other "classics." I mean, come on! They have entire courses devoted entirely to understanding the hidden meanings of various novels. Cliffsnotes, anyone!?
Personally, I think the symbolism in the Bible is a lot more obvious than say, Great Gatsby.

If someone disputes them then I ask why didn't God make himself clear?
If you say it is clear then God is indeed a liar and a deciever.
That doesn't make any sense. Just because God made it clear, it doesn't mean we always see it.
As I've explained recently to someone on another forum: if you can't understand God, it is a problem with the receiver, not the sender.
And, as I said in my other post, who are you to demand anything from God? Fair or not, he's still God, and you're only hurting yourself.

I vote the bible was written by men for control over the weakminded. When under the light of scrutiny it not only falls short of divine but it is poorly written even by man standard of reasoning.
Actually, any unbiased literary professor will tell you that the Bible is quite unique.
Consider, it was written over millenia by quite a few people who didn't even speak the same language, and yet it all flows very nicely, as if it was written by one person at one time. (Which, BTW, it's been proven to have been written by many people over millenia, so don't bother with that argument).
It's also historically accurate. Miracles and deities aside, it's 100% historically accurate.
It's also scientifically accurate. Thousands of years before people ever learn what your blood actually does, the Bible states that your life is in your blood. (You think this is obvious, but remember that just a few centuries ago, people were being bled to relieve sicknesses). At least 3000 years before Darwin comes along, Genesis puts Creation in a nice evolutionary order...

So, even if you don't believe what the Bible has to say, it is still a unique book, with no other equal. Oh, and don't bother arguing it's not, because I have a book sitting next to me that is entirely about showing the historical validity and accuracy and uniqueness of the Bible.

If a boyfriend tells his girlfriend to love him or he is going to physically harm her, is that love?.
Hey, good idea, that might actually work!

*adds sentence to stalker-notes*

You do not understand it is not God doing it it is man doing it.

Kinda like this A boyfriend says to his girlfriend with a gun to her head and says "love me or I will shoot you." The girlfriend says " No you tyranical monster never" *BANG* the boyfriend responds " See what you made me do"

Yes as you can see clearly the boyfriend did nothing wrong he did warn her first that he would shoot if she did not love him.

It is entirely the girlfriends fault. The boyfriend begged and pleaded for her to love him but to no avail. **SIGH**
You don't understand, as you have the analogy completely backasswards.

A guy loves a girl.

Some other guy is pointing a gun at the girl's head, and says the only way she can live is if the first guy sacrifices himself for her.

The girl says she doesn't need him, that she'll be fine on her own, and won't let him save her.

The guy shoots the girl.

It's the girl's fault.

It is not a threat?? Hmmm I think I have established through reason that it is indeed a threat.

The biblegod is a tyrant and knows not love if he will send creatures to an eternity of torture for exercising their free will.
If you don't have anything intelligent to say...

Ever think of how unreasonable the bible story is?

God came to Moses? oh yeah and a few other alleged people who claim they heard from God with evidence whatsoever. We are just supposed to take their word for it. Excuse me for not wanting to listen to the rantings of a lunatic that says that God spoke directly to them.

Plus I thought God was fair and his creation was all equal?? If he speaks to you and not to me then that is not equal is it?
God speaks to you. You just don't listen. Yelling and screaming does you no good if a man is deaf, and you are quite thoroughly deaf to God.
To use an analogy relevant to NS, God is trying to talk to you and you're using an I.G.N.O.R.E cannon on him.

I would suggest reading where God sends bears to maul little kids for calling a prophet baldy and tell me how very much he loves and cares for people,
I would suggest that you read the background for that story.

Tell me now how the little children in Sodom were unworthy and deserved to be slain and little infants that could not even know anything.
And is there any evidence that those children were sent to hell?
Didn't think so.

They were being punished for their parents sins???? I can go on and on with the absurdity of the bible.
This takes a bit of explanation.
In the OT, before Jesus, there was no forgiveness of sin. The whole sacrificing the goat/sheep thing only covered up the sin. The sin was still there until Jesus died and extended his grace to those before him in time. So your parent's sin, kinda like your parent's debt, is moved on to you.

Think about it, if your parents do something outrageously hideous and everyone hates them, that is going to affect how they feel about you. Until they forget what your parents did, they're going to treat you differently.

I'll leave the explanation at that. If you want more detail, just ask, and I'll try to explain it further.

I cannot understand how one can reason it reasonable.
And I cannot understand how one can reason it unreasonable. What's your point?

It is not a threat?? Hmmm I think I have established through reason that it is indeed a threat.

The biblegod is a tyrant and knows not love if he will send creatures to an eternity of torture for exercising their free will.
He doesn't send them to Hell. When you die, God sees if you're in His book. If you're not, you don't get into Heaven. If you go to a restaurant, and forget to make a reservation, whose fault is it when they don't let you in?

Ever think of how unreasonable the bible story is?

God came to Moses? oh yeah and a few other alleged people who claim they heard from God with evidence whatsoever. We are just supposed to take their word for it. Excuse me for not wanting to listen to the rantings of a lunatic that says that God spoke directly to them.
Every think of how unlikely it would be that a man would lead thousands of children to their deaths in a Crusade? Improbably doesn't mean impossible.

Plus I thought God was fair and his creation was all equal?? If he speaks to you and not to me then that is not equal is it?
He made them equal, they themselves choose to be less than equal. Moses was a good person, which is why God chose him. God never talks to people who call Him tyrannical and make inane comparisons to boyfriends.

I would suggest reading where God sends bears to maul little kids for calling a prophet baldy and tell me how very much he loves and cares for people,
Don't mock a prophet, he's your better. Don't mock a king, he's your better.

Tell me now how the little children in Sodom were unworthy and deserved to be slain and little infants that could not even know anything.
Everyone inhereits a sin nature from their parents. God says you can punish the child for the sins of the father.

They were being punished for their parents sins???? I can go on and on with the absurdity of the bible.
There's a verse in there that says that explicitly. So no, not absurd.

I cannot understand how one can reason it reasonable.
I can't understand how someone can read four verses out of context and think they've realized something that no one else has for 6000 years.

What is wrong with my 5 points exactly. No one seems to quote them so I assume I'm being ignored for no good reason.
You pwned them so they're ignoring you...
Meh, not much you can do about it. :rolleyes:

Basically, they're going with Point A...

Originally Posted by Vangaardia
If a boyfriend tells his girlfriend to love him or he is going to physically harm her, is that love?.

it's worse than that.
He has many groups of girl friends (lucky).
One group are told the only way he'll love them is if they kiss his feet. If they don't he'll hit them.
The next group are told the only way he loves anyone is if they kiss his knees.
If they don't he'll hit them.
The next group are told he'll only love them if they kiss his thighs. If they don't he'll hit them.
I'll stop my examples there to avoid offence ;)
They all think they know how to love him best and are prepared to do violence to the girls who are wrong.
Hey what do I care. To extend the metaphore I'm gay and I don't think he has the power to hit me.
Pagan... see!

First off, READ THE CONTEXT!
And, just because he's calling God a liar, that doesn't make him right, you know. I can call you any number of things, but just because I say them, it does not make them true. There are many many examples in the Bible of what NOT to do.
Also, there could be some SARCASM in there. Jeremiah was probably ticked at something God did. I need to read it more, but it appears to me that God said something, Jeremiah was stupid and took it the wrong way, and now he's trying to blame God. Note that the heading to that passage is "Jeremiah's Complaint."


S'not what I have. :rolleyes:
" 'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel."


Eh? :confused:


And it would take five intelligent Christians to demonstrate quite a bit of Atheistic dogma to be hogwash. Bash the Bible all you want, but all the hogwash having to with the Bible is the hogwash of people thinking they're smarter than God.
Oh, and if you don't have anything intelligent to add to the argument, don't bother saying anything.


I can understand it pretty well. Perhaps this passage will explain a bit...

And it's no different than any of the other "classics." I mean, come on! They have entire courses devoted entirely to understanding the hidden meanings of various novels. Cliffsnotes, anyone!?
Personally, I think the symbolism in the Bible is a lot more obvious than say, Great Gatsby.


That doesn't make any sense. Just because God made it clear, it doesn't mean we always see it.
As I've explained recently to someone on another forum: if you can't understand God, it is a problem with the receiver, not the sender.
And, as I said in my other post, who are you to demand anything from God? Fair or not, he's still God, and you're only hurting yourself.


Actually, any unbiased literary professor will tell you that the Bible is quite unique.
Consider, it was written over millenia by quite a few people who didn't even speak the same language, and yet it all flows very nicely, as if it was written by one person at one time. (Which, BTW, it's been proven to have been written by many people over millenia, so don't bother with that argument).
It's also historically accurate. Miracles and deities aside, it's 100% historically accurate.
It's also scientifically accurate. Thousands of years before people ever learn what your blood actually does, the Bible states that your life is in your blood. (You think this is obvious, but remember that just a few centuries ago, people were being bled to relieve sicknesses). At least 3000 years before Darwin comes along, Genesis puts Creation in a nice evolutionary order...

So, even if you don't believe what the Bible has to say, it is still a unique book, with no other equal. Oh, and don't bother arguing it's not, because I have a book sitting next to me that is entirely about showing the historical validity and accuracy and uniqueness of the Bible.

Great it is a unique book to bad God did not write it.

God made it clear huh?? Then why are there 1000 different denomnations are arguing over parts of the totally clear bible?

Or is it clear to you a special messenger of God perhaps?

The bible is a nationalitic tool of slaughter that does make it quite unique.

The bible is full of lies it says there are unicorns and cockatrices and Satyrs and other mythical monsters just check out the original King James version.

King James is not the right version? Hell they cannot even keep that straight anymore.

The bible was put together by men by a yay and nay vote it is fairy tale with some historical fact smattered inside.

I suggest reading IS. chapters 7 and 8 real good. Tell me what you find.

God is for slavery? That is what the bible says the biblegod is a menace to mankind.

And by the way I am not an atheist. I will leave this for you to chew on.

You form your opinion of God from the account given of Him in the Bible; and I form my opinion of the Bible from the wisdom and goodness of God manifested in the structure of the universe, and in all works of creation. The result in these two cases will be, that you, by taking the Bible for your standard, will have a bad opinion of God; and I, by taking God for my standard, shall have a bad opinion of the Bible.


Thomas Paine.

The biblegod is more like a demon that kills little children whilst they sleep.

Originally Posted by Neo Cannen
What is wrong with my 5 points exactly. No one seems to quote them so I assume I'm being ignored for no good reason.

You pwned them so they're ignoring you...
Meh, not much you can do about it.

Basically, they're going with Point A...


Actually I fell asleep during both lectures. Start agian for me will you.
Oh ZZZzzzzzzzzzzz sorry I keep doing it :)

Great it is a unique book to bad God did not write it.

God made it clear huh?? Then why are there 1000 different denomnations are arguing over parts of the totally clear bible?

The bible is full of lies it says there are unicorns and cockatrices and Satyrs and other mythical monsters just check out the original King James version.

King James is not the right version? Hell they cannot even keep that straight anymore.

I suggest reading IS. chapters 7 and 8 real good. Tell me what you find.

God is for slavery? That is what the bible says the biblegod is a menace to mankind.

And by the way I am not an atheist. I will leave this for you to chew on.

You form your opinion of God from the account given of Him in the Bible; and I form my opinion of the Bible from the wisdom and goodness of God manifested in the structure of the universe, and in all works of creation. The result in these two cases will be, that you, by taking the Bible for your standard, will have a bad opinion of God; and I, by taking God for my standard, shall have a bad opinion of the Bible.


Thomas Paine.

The biblegod is more like a demon that kills little children whilst they sleep.
Actually "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God," so while He didn't write it, He did dictate.

Why are there 100 political parties in America, if there's only best way to do things?

You know, scientists say that at one point there were "dinosaurs," but since I don't see them now they must all be liars.

There is no right version, except the original texts.

I would suggest reading all of IS, so you have some context.

God says if someone invades you and you beat them you can enslave them. Sounds fair to me.

What are you? Buddhist?

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/quotcont.html

Actually, the Bible God is one who rewards children for following Him, and ignores them when they don't. Like any good parent.

Actually "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God," so while He didn't write it, He did dictate.

Why are there 100 political parties in America, if there's only best way to do things?

You know, scientists say that at one point there were "dinosaurs," but since I don't see them now they must all be liars.

There is no right version, except the original texts.

I would suggest reading all of IS, so you have some context.

God says if someone invades you and you beat them you can enslave them. Sounds fair to me.

What are you? Buddhist?

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/quotcont.html

Actually, the Bible God is one who rewards children for following Him, and ignores them when they don't. Like any good parent.


The Children that made fun of elisha the prophet received a most blessed reward. Do did the children of Sodom the infants were rewarded with the most gentle of love.

I am a deist.

He dictated and we do not have the originals. Lets see the copies are in error and we do not have the originals so then it is most unreasonable of anyone to believe them.
The bible is a logical fallacy. The story presented by christians is non-sequitar

God came down to earth in human form.
To sacrifice himself to himself because that is the only way he could convince himself to forgive us for being so sinful?

This is so absurd and beyond ridiculous. Why does a sacrifice mean anything?

Does this make God feel better that I am a sinner?

Why blood?

Here perhaps this will help I found this online.

Why would He need to execute this plan if He already has the will to do so? The whole point is to reconcile God with humanity, right? The very fact that He is willing to go through with this ritual of pain and suffering indicates He already has the desire to forgive, and therefore the whole mission is already accomplished before the ritual is begun. Since God is omnipotent and answers to no one, why not just dispense with the whole superfluous ritual, cut to the chase and say, "You're forgiven."?

Christians sometimes use the "taking our place for our punishment" analogy. Does the President of the United States, when issuing an executive pardon, go to prison instead of the criminal pardoned? No, he just says, "I pardon you" and it's done.

As a side note, the whole concept of how sacrifices in general help anything is also confusing. I've come to understand that the ancient people of this earth (Jewish or pagan) had a very blood-thirsty view of God (or the gods). The gods of ancient times had an unexplainable desire to see things die on their alters. The motivation seems questionable from the perspective of modern sensibilities. How did they benefit from animals being slaughtered on their alters (to say nothing of the morality of such needless sadism)? Why does a sacrifice appease their wrath?


Got to get ready for work be back later :)

"I wanna love you and treat you right;
I wanna love you every day and every night:
We’ll be together with a roof right over our heads;
We’ll share the shelter of my single bed;
We’ll share the same room, yeah! - for jah provide the bread.
Is this love - is this love - is this love -
Is this love that I’m feelin’?
Is this love - is this love - is this love -
Is this love that I’m feelin’?
I wanna know - wanna know - wanna know now!
I got to know - got to know - got to know now![...]"
-"Is This Love", by Bob Marley.

Oh wait, we weren't talking about this "Is this love?", were we?

I was just curious if this is love or not. If a boyfriend tells his girlfriend to love him or he is going to physically harm her, is that love? I am getting the message from scripture that that is the case. I should strive to be like God Yes? OR should I do as God says and not as he does? The reason I ask is the lesson that God is giving me in scripture. He created us and then says if we do not do as he says and we do not love him then he is going to cast us into an eternal hell with fire and torture. For some reason it just strikes me as tyranical in nature and not really loving but I have been told not to doubt the word of God so this must be true love to threaten people and make them love you or else.

I figured maybe what we consider abusive boyfriends are really very loving and just acting like God does.
If someone has to tell you how or why to love them, then you're not doing it right.

Another quote I agree with.

Christianity as antiquity.-- When we hear the ancient bells growling on a Sunday morning we ask ourselves: Is it really possible! This, for a jew, crucified two thousand years ago, who said he was God's son? The proof of such a claim is lacking. Certainly the Christian religion is an antiquity projected into our times from remote prehistory; and the fact that the claim is believed - whereas one is otherwise so strict in examining pretensions - is perhaps the most ancient piece of this heritage. A god who begets children with a mortal woman; a sage who bids men work no more, have no more courts, but look for the signs of the impending end of the world; a justice that accepts the innocent as a vicarious sacrifice; someone who orders his disciples to drink his blood; prayers for miraculous interventions; sins perpetrated against a god, atoned for by a god; fear of a beyond to which death is the portal; the form of the cross as a symbol in a time that no longer knows the function and ignominy of the cross -- how ghoulishly all this touches us, as if from the tomb of a primeval past! Can one believe that such things are still believed?

from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human, s.405, R.J. Hollingdale transl.

Yes Mr Nietzsche they still believe!!

Great it is a unique book to bad God did not write it.
You can keep saying this until you're blue in the face, but the fact remains that that's all you can say. You have no argument, you have a monologue. I don't care to hear a monologue.

God made it clear huh?? Then why are there 1000 different denomnations are arguing over parts of the totally clear bible?[/quote]
People are stupid.

Or is it clear to you a special messenger of God perhaps?
If you read the Bible looking for inconsistencies and lies and hypocracy, that's all you're going to find because that's all you'll let yourself find. That's why we invented the word "bias." If you read the Bible to prove that you can't understand it, you're not going to understand it because you don't want to understand it.

The bible is a nationalitic tool of slaughter that does make it quite unique.
I recall Hitler and Stalin slaughtering plenty of people in opposition to the Bible...
Anything can used as a tool. I could stab someone in the eye with a fork, but that doesn't make forks a bad thing.

The bible is full of lies it says there are unicorns and cockatrices and Satyrs and other mythical monsters just check out the original King James version.
And where did you read that, the Inquirer!?
You find me ONE verse about a unicorn!

King James is not the right version? Hell they cannot even keep that straight anymore.
Personally, I like NIV. I really don't care, though. If anyone has a translation issue, I talk to my Canadian friend (whose friend speaks Greek and Latin) or I talk to my dad, who happens to be a chaplain and has read the original greek/latin texts.

The bible was put together by men by a yay and nay vote it is fairy tale with some historical fact smattered inside.
And how do you know this? Do you even know how the Bible was cannonized, or who did it, or why? Do you even know the criteria they used to determine which books to use?

I suggest reading IS. chapters 7 and 8 real good. Tell me what you find.
I found that it was like a five-year-old trying to read Eistein's theory of relativity.
Just because you don't understand something, that doesn't make it wrong. Isaiah is a very hard book to read and understand.

God is for slavery? That is what the bible says the biblegod is a menace to mankind.
*sigh*
No. No...nononononono.
There is not one verse in the Bible that says slavery is ok.

There is a verse that says that slaves should listen to their masters and masters should be kind to their slaves.
That doesn't mean it's ok to have slaves, it just means be nice to them if you have them.

It's very similar to "turn the other cheek." Just because you're turning your cheek, that doesn't mean it's ok for them to hit you.

And by the way I am not an atheist. I will leave this for you to chew on.
I really couldn't care less.

You form your opinion of God from the account given of Him in the Bible; and I form my opinion of the Bible from the wisdom and goodness of God manifested in the structure of the universe, and in all works of creation. The result in these two cases will be, that you, by taking the Bible for your standard, will have a bad opinion of God; and I, by taking God for my standard, shall have a bad opinion of the Bible.

Thomas Paine.
Thomas Paine obviously didn't look at the right parts of the universe. Whenever I look at the wisdom and goodness of God manifested in the structure of the universe, and in all works of creation, I see a very happy, loving God.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems that it takes a God who can laugh to make something like a platepus.

And what's the relevance of that quote?

The biblegod is more like a demon that kills little children whilst they sleep.
Then it's a good thing I worship God and read the Bible. This biblegod sounds like a pretty nasty thing.

Let me know when you start turning blue.

God is dead.

But Christians are necrophiles.

:D

God says if someone invades you and you beat them you can enslave them. Sounds fair to me.
Not quite, but that's a different argument...

Another quote I agree with.

Christianity as antiquity.-- When we hear the ancient bells growling on a Sunday morning we ask ourselves: Is it really possible! This, for a jew, crucified two thousand years ago, who said he was God's son? The proof of such a claim is lacking. Certainly the Christian religion is an antiquity projected into our times from remote prehistory; and the fact that the claim is believed - whereas one is otherwise so strict in examining pretensions - is perhaps the most ancient piece of this heritage. A god who begets children with a mortal woman; a sage who bids men work no more, have no more courts, but look for the signs of the impending end of the world; a justice that accepts the innocent as a vicarious sacrifice; someone who orders his disciples to drink his blood; prayers for miraculous interventions; sins perpetrated against a god, atoned for by a god; fear of a beyond to which death is the portal; the form of the cross as a symbol in a time that no longer knows the function and ignominy of the cross -- how ghoulishly all this touches us, as if from the tomb of a primeval past! Can one believe that such things are still believed?

from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human, s.405, R.J. Hollingdale transl.

Yes Mr Nietzsche they still believe!!
I love how you're trying to prove of the antiquity of the Bible by quoting a really old, dead guy.

Last time I checked, antiques are worth a lot of money. Just because it's antiquated, it doesn't make it bad, it just makes it old.

BTW, if the Bible is outdated, then that means those things, ya know, the Ten Commandments are outdated, yes?
So things like lying and stealing and killing are ok now? Cuz ya know, last time I checked, those were still really bad things...maybe I'm just too old fashioned...
So all those things like love your neighbor and honor your parents and be nice to those around you are all outdated now. Excuse me for not getting the memo.

Actually a good portion of the ten commandments are more or less against most human practices.

Shall not kill? Tell Dubya.

No stealing? Tell that to spies.

Honor thy father? Oh, oops, daddy was a Manson clone.

Actually I fell asleep during both lectures. Start agian for me will you.
Oh ZZZzzzzzzzzzzz sorry I keep doing it :)
You think I have to be awake to do this? ;)

Haha! Good point. But, that's the beauty. A pastor may be biased, by posting here, you get alot of different viewpoints.

Not saying you shouldn't talk to one however.
Yes, cuz NS is far less biased than a pastor. :rolleyes:
:)

BTW, Neo Cannen and Arammanar, nice posts. It's refreshing to see some intelligence in here.

BTW, Neo Cannen and Arammanar, nice posts. It's refreshing to see some intelligence in here.

Thank you, same to you in your earlier posts.

God Is Dead, and Man has killed him....

You think I have to be awake to do this? ;)
Ha ha .
Thanks for lightening that.
I will defend your right to believe what ever you want and wish you joy in it.
I am a Pagan. Will you do he same for me?
If so then the world is a better place for having us in it. :)

God Is Dead, and Man has killed him....
0nly if he chooses it to be so.

Ha ha .
Thanks for lightening that.
I will defend your right to believe what ever you want and wish you joy in it.
I am a Pagan. Will you do he same for me?
If so then the world is a better place for having us in it. :)
Meh, I can't make you believe anything. I'd like you to be a Christian, but I can't force you.
If paganism makes you happy, well, I wish you the best of luck. You have the right to believe it.

If you have any questions about Christianity, though, just ask.

Read the entire thing a couple times. The message seems pretty clear either you are with God or you are against him.

If you are with him you get heaven if you are against him you get hell??

Am I missing something?

Oh yeah then he says he loves you but then he says he hates people too so.

where does it say he hates people.....

More proof God does not exist.

Ok, here is a question that I'd like to hear people's responses too.

Does a muslim or an atheist deserve to go to Hell?

I'm not asking why they are going to Hell or anything, just if they DESERVE it?

More proof God does not exist.


proving God does not exist is impossible.





don't believe... then prove that God does not exist.

I was just curious if this is love or not. If a boyfriend tells his girlfriend to love him or he is going to physically harm her, is that love? I am getting the message from scripture that that is the case. I should strive to be like God Yes? OR should I do as God says and not as he does? The reason I ask is the lesson that God is giving me in scripture. He created us and then says if we do not do as he says and we do not love him then he is going to cast us into an eternal hell with fire and torture. For some reason it just strikes me as tyranical in nature and not really loving but I have been told not to doubt the word of God so this must be true love to threaten people and make them love you or else.

I figured maybe what we consider abusive boyfriends are really very loving and just acting like God does.
listen to how many Christians speak about God, and you will see a virtually perfect matchup with what abused women say about their abusers:

"He punishes us because He loves us so much."
"It's our fault for making Him angry."
"It's because we are sinful/wicked/imperfect that we are hurt; it's really our fault, not His."
"He doesn't really want to hurt us, we just are bad and He has no choice."
"We don't deserve His love, we are so sinful, but He generously give us love even though we are unworthy."

here's an interesting editorial on the subject:
http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=353

first off the Bible is a collection of inspired texts, not one book. that being said, i dont understand why on earth anyone would take everything in the Bible literally. are some things meant to be taken literally, yes, but all? when people say it is raining cats and dogs, is it really raining cats and dogs? the books of the Bible are just like any other book you may read, they have literary devices. Christ is quoted saying something like: "it is better for a child to have a millstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea, than for him to be led astray." is this true? no. does this mean God/Christ is deceiving us? no. it merely means that God/Christ is making a point, DONT LEAD CHILDREN ASTRAY!!!! this is a perfect example of what happens when one gets caught up in the details of Scripture and lose sight of the main message that God is trying to get across.

proving God does not exist is impossible.





don't believe... then prove that God does not exist.

It's not possible to prove a negative. I don't believe in pink and purple spotted dragons, but I sure can't prove they don't exist.

Ok heres a metaphor for you

I was on duty on the Coast Guard Rescue boat the other morning, when I spotted what I thought was drowning woman. A mile or so off shore, she was treading water and looked quite weary and dehydrated. We sped over to help her, but she swam away from the life preservers we tossed her, she wouldn't grab hold of the lifeguard hooks we extended to her, and she swam away from the life raft and swimmers we sent out to help her. It was bizarre.

I asked her if she wanted some help--actually expecting her to be relieved and even grateful, and she screamed "no, go away!"--even though every now and then she would literally sink under water for a few minutes at a time, and come up frantically gasping for air. She said she was "doing fine without help", and that she intended to stay out there forever like that, just "doing fine".

I pointed out to her that she looked exhausted, dehydrated, seemed ready to drown any minute, and that she would be too tired to make it to shore if she waited much later--and she denied it. She said it wasn't really all that bad, that she had made it okay so far on her own, and that she could no doubt keep it up indefinitely.

I told her I thought she obviously needed medical attention, rest, water, and she refused. She said she was her "own person" and that I could not force her to get out of the water. I told her, cautiously--since she would go ballistic whenever I tried to help her--that I didn't think she was in any mental state to be able to make such decisions, and that I would have to subdue her and force her into the boat--for her own good. And you should have heard the curses, threats of lawsuits, murder, suicide from her...as she constantly kept swimming away from our boat and from our every attempt to rescue her...

I kept sending people out, but she kept evading them...I offered and begged and offered and pleaded and offered and implored...and she railed and railed and railed...and always swam away further...and about sundown she went under for the last time...why wouldn't she accept the free help? I'll never know...I was in anguish for weeks and weeks over this senseless loss...

In the context of what I have seen, in my life at least, I disagree with that situation as being a metaphor for God's message.

I would see it more in the following light, as I posted here
http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8175880#post8175880 but, as far as I could see among the jumble of things, did not get a response:

A man walks out of the house, blindfolded. He can sense his surroundings, through touch and hearing, get along okay with his walking stick and suchlike.

To him, it seems like he's on solid ground, walking along.

There are people around him that say "No! Walk THAT way! That's the direction to go if you want to be saved by the all-loving God! If you don't go that way, when you get tired of walking and want to sit down, you'll feel like you're sitting on nails for all of eternity! And if you DO go that way, when you get tired and sit down you'll find yourself in a lush meadow with 72 virgins!"

He'd be glad to walk that way, except that there are dozens of people around, all pushing him in different directions, as well as some that say that there's really no reason to go in any direction at all, since clearly the ground is solid and isn't going anywhere, and this place is as good as any other.

Now, sure he has "free will" to choose which direction to walk in. But he has no way of knowing which one is right - from around him he hears shouts for one direction, shouts for another direction, shouts for jumping around in circles, shouts for sitting down in place. Everyone around gives their advice, saying that "surely it's obvious I'M right and they're all lying or misguided!" If he goes to one place, people (mostly) point in one direction, and give reasons why they're right; somewhere else, different groups of people point in different directions, and all seem sure that they're right.

Sure, he has "free will" to make a choice. But how is he to make the right one? A coin flip seems as good a way of deciding as any, or maybe he'll just go in the direction he's walking in the first place, or maybe he'll go OPPOSITE the direction he was walking in just to spite the people that pushed him that way, or maybe he'll just go in the direction that the people with the most convincing-sounding arguments are pointing to. Or maybe he'll just go in the direction that seems simplest. Or maybe he'll just go with his gut feeling.

But all of those ways of choosing how to exercise his free will do not necessarily correlate to which direction is the right way to go.

That's what the world seems like to me.

Now, to me, it seems that if the God was omnipotent and all-loving, he would have shown the blindfolded men the "right direction" - he could make the inside of the blindfold have a nice bright sign that tells the man when he is going in the right direction or hear people showing you the right direction, or something like that. Or he could have left an unfakeable message - not something that men could duplicate like an audio recording. Maybe a twenty-meter long sign in Braille out of, say, a material that does not naturally appear anywhere else on Earth and that, for some reason, is immovable. None of those would be out of the power of an omnipotent, all-loving God. None of these would violate the free will of the man to walk in any direction he wished, but it would let him know which one is the one that leads to the good place and which one leads to eternal suffering.

Ok, here is a question that I'd like to hear people's responses too.

Does a muslim or an atheist deserve to go to Hell?

I'm not asking why they are going to Hell or anything, just if they DESERVE it?
You are asking the wrong people, then. Only God can tell what is deserving in regards to Hell.

Ok heres a metaphor for you

I was on duty on the Coast Guard Rescue boat the other morning, when I spotted what I thought was drowning woman. A mile or so off shore, she was treading water and looked quite weary and dehydrated. We sped over to help her, but she swam away from the life preservers we tossed her, she wouldn't grab hold of the lifeguard hooks we extended to her, and she swam away from the life raft and swimmers we sent out to help her. It was bizarre.

I asked her if she wanted some help--actually expecting her to be relieved and even grateful, and she screamed "no, go away!"--even though every now and then she would literally sink under water for a few minutes at a time, and come up frantically gasping for air. She said she was "doing fine without help", and that she intended to stay out there forever like that, just "doing fine".

I pointed out to her that she looked exhausted, dehydrated, seemed ready to drown any minute, and that she would be too tired to make it to shore if she waited much later--and she denied it. She said it wasn't really all that bad, that she had made it okay so far on her own, and that she could no doubt keep it up indefinitely.

I told her I thought she obviously needed medical attention, rest, water, and she refused. She said she was her "own person" and that I could not force her to get out of the water. I told her, cautiously--since she would go ballistic whenever I tried to help her--that I didn't think she was in any mental state to be able to make such decisions, and that I would have to subdue her and force her into the boat--for her own good. And you should have heard the curses, threats of lawsuits, murder, suicide from her...as she constantly kept swimming away from our boat and from our every attempt to rescue her...

I kept sending people out, but she kept evading them...I offered and begged and offered and pleaded and offered and implored...and she railed and railed and railed...and always swam away further...and about sundown she went under for the last time...why wouldn't she accept the free help? I'll never know...I was in anguish for weeks and weeks over this senseless loss...
She was right! Bugger off and let her live her own life, for Brad's sake...!

That YOU feel you can help her is hardly the point. That she might not make it back to land is hardly the point. The point is that she HAS FREE WILL. She is an adult, and free will has nothing to do with God.

You are asking the wrong people, then. Only God can tell what is deserving in regards to Hell.

OMG, what a cop-out of an answer. Just becuase you believe in God doesn't mean you can't have, and express, an opinion of your own. Now, do you, as a person, feel that a Muslim or an athiest, purely based on their beliefs, deserves to suffer for all of eternity?

You can keep saying this until you're blue in the face, but the fact remains that that's all you can say. You have no argument, you have a monologue. I don't care to hear a monologue.

God made it clear huh?? Then why are there 1000 different denomnations are arguing over parts of the totally clear bible?
People are stupid.


If you read the Bible looking for inconsistencies and lies and hypocracy, that's all you're going to find because that's all you'll let yourself find. That's why we invented the word "bias." If you read the Bible to prove that you can't understand it, you're not going to understand it because you don't want to understand it.


I recall Hitler and Stalin slaughtering plenty of people in opposition to the Bible...
Anything can used as a tool. I could stab someone in the eye with a fork, but that doesn't make forks a bad thing.


And where did you read that, the Inquirer!?
You find me ONE verse about a unicorn!


Personally, I like NIV. I really don't care, though. If anyone has a translation issue, I talk to my Canadian friend (whose friend speaks Greek and Latin) or I talk to my dad, who happens to be a chaplain and has read the original greek/latin texts.


And how do you know this? Do you even know how the Bible was cannonized, or who did it, or why? Do you even know the criteria they used to determine which books to use?


I found that it was like a five-year-old trying to read Eistein's theory of relativity.
Just because you don't understand something, that doesn't make it wrong. Isaiah is a very hard book to read and understand.


*sigh*
No. No...nononononono.
There is not one verse in the Bible that says slavery is ok.

There is a verse that says that slaves should listen to their masters and masters should be kind to their slaves.
That doesn't mean it's ok to have slaves, it just means be nice to them if you have them.

It's very similar to "turn the other cheek." Just because you're turning your cheek, that doesn't mean it's ok for them to hit you.


I really couldn't care less.


Thomas Paine obviously didn't look at the right parts of the universe. Whenever I look at the wisdom and goodness of God manifested in the structure of the universe, and in all works of creation, I see a very happy, loving God.
Maybe it's just me, but it seems that it takes a God who can laugh to make something like a platepus.

And what's the relevance of that quote?


Then it's a good thing I worship God and read the Bible. This biblegod sounds like a pretty nasty thing.

Let me know when you start turning blue.[/QUOTE]

Here you go. Unicorns of all things 7: And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
That is Isaiah 34:7 and just too make sure I will post it in original hebrew for you. Because the new translations conviently leave it out.
e)r from (07213)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
R@'em reh-ame'
Parts of Speech TWOT
Noun Masculine 2096a
Definition
probably the great aurochs or wild bulls which are now extinct. The exact meaning is not known.

Translated Words
KJV (9) - unicorn, 9;
NAS (9) - wild ox, 7; wild oxen, 2;


Yeah all the original versions were stated as unicorns. I can pull up the satyrs too and all the other mythical creatures.

where does it say he hates people.....

Romans 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

I have heard some spin doctors try to say he is talking about nations here and not esau specifically OK I'll bite but it still says god hates.

Look it up in context too God HATES Esau period it is black and white.

More bible error Yeah an almighty God would tell his writers to print this.

Rabbits do not chew their cud
LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
'Gerah', the term which appears in the MT means (chewed) cud, and also perhaps grain, or berry (also a 20th of a sheckel, but I think that we can agree that that is irrelevant here). It does *not* mean dung, and there is a perfectly adequate Hebrew word for that, which could have been used. Furthermore, the phrase translated 'chew the cud' in the KJV is more exactly 'bring up the cud'. Rabbits do not bring up anything; they let it go all the way through, then eat it again. The description given in Leviticus is inaccurate, and that's that. Rabbits do eat their own dung; they do not bring anything up and chew on it.

This is the IDIOCY of the bible. I know I know read it in context LMAO.

Rabbits chew cud LOL

Like to see more of the infallible word of god?

To those of a reasonable mind read this and tell me if this is reasonable under scrutiny.

1(A)In the beginning (B)God (C)created the heavens and the earth.

2The earth was [a](D)formless and void, and (E)darkness was over the surface of the deep, and (F)the Spirit of God (G)was [b]moving over the surface of the waters.


3Then (H)God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.


4God saw that the light was (I)good; and God (J)separated the light from the darkness.


5(K)God called the light day, and the darkness He called night And (L)there was evening and there was morning, one day.


6Then God said, "Let there be an (M)expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."


7God made the [c]expanse, and separated (N)the waters which were below the expanse from the waters (O)which were above the expanse; and it was so.


8God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.


9Then God said, "(P)Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let (Q)the dry land appear"; and it was so.


10God called the dry land earth, and the (R)gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.


11Then God said, "Let the earth sprout (S)vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so.


12The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.


13There was evening and there was morning, a third day.


14Then God said, "Let there be (T)lights in the (U)expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for (V)signs and for (W)seasons and for days and years;


15and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.


16God made the two great lights, the (X)greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made (Y)the stars also.


Read what it says then tell me what the error is. This is good exercise in critical learning. There is logical error in the above verses can anyone find it?

But "God" inspired this he inspired horrid logic and fairy tales??? This is so pathetic that the author could not even see the glaring mistake or thought people would be so stupid as to not figure it out LOL.

OMG, what a cop-out of an answer. Just becuase you believe in God doesn't mean you can't have, and express, an opinion of your own. Now, do you, as a person, feel that a Muslim or an athiest, purely based on their beliefs, deserves to suffer for all of eternity?
D'uh. I don't believe in 'God', and it's his final say in his own mythology, so how is it a cop-out?

Hell is not a place.

people are talking about yadda yadda follow god or go to hell, i'd like to say that there's god, and other higher powers, or divine beings, whatever you want to calle them so the whole world is goin' to hell. I choose not to believe any religion, but rather to study it, look at it from an atheist... maybe not quite atheist, rather Agnostic, point of view. And I want to point out, someone said god died for us, my understanding is jesus did... the son of god... bear in mind please, that i come from a religious family so i'm not "preaching" about something i was simply raised on, this is actually my own opinion. some religious people on the other hand don't actually know much about their religion, they only know they were raised to believe in god (i was like that as a child). I don't think a great and kind god can exist with all the hate in our world.

ps. I'm sorry, I sorta went of on a little tantrum, or rant, or whatever you want to call it, but religion is something i feel rather strongly about.

I was just curious if this is love or not. If a boyfriend tells his girlfriend to love him or he is going to physically harm her, is that love? I am getting the message from scripture that that is the case. I should strive to be like God Yes? OR should I do as God says and not as he does? The reason I ask is the lesson that God is giving me in scripture. He created us and then says if we do not do as he says and we do not love him then he is going to cast us into an eternal hell with fire and torture. For some reason it just strikes me as tyranical in nature and not really loving but I have been told not to doubt the word of God so this must be true love to threaten people and make them love you or else.

I figured maybe what we consider abusive boyfriends are really very loving and just acting like God does.

Well maybe God knows better for us than an abusive byfriend...

If we want to be close to God then we have to become blameless (ie covered by JC) and as we all sin then we cannot be close to God other than through JC

Another way off seeing Heaven and HEll (i dono if its right) is that Heaven is being in Gods presence, Hell is to have been in Gods presence but then to be banished from it...

did that help... at all?

Ok, here is a question that I'd like to hear people's responses too.

Does a muslim or an atheist deserve to go to Hell?

I'm not asking why they are going to Hell or anything, just if they DESERVE it?

Everyone DESERVES to go to Hell. We all broke the ten commandments:

Lying
Stealing
Idols
Adultery

However through the LOVE of God we can come to know him (and go to heaven)

EDIT: I only included 4 cuz they were all i could remember and enough to send all of us to Hell

Everyone DESERVES to go to Hell. We all broke the ten commandments:

Lying
Stealing
Idols
Adultery

However through the LOVE of God we can come to know him (and go to heaven)

EDIT: I only included 4 cuz they were all i could remember and enough to send all of us to Hell
LOL.

you are joking, right? you believe the violation of the 10 Commandment is what makes humans worthy of eternal suffering in a torture dimension, BUT YOU CANNOT REMEMBER MORE THAN 4/10?!

dude, if i believed a list of 10 rules was the difference between paradise and hell, i would NEVER forget what those rules are. you people don't even believe what you peddle, do you?

LOL.

you are joking, right? you believe the violation of the 10 Commandment is what makes humans worthy of eternal suffering in a torture dimension, BUT YOU CANNOT REMEMBER MORE THAN 4/10?!

dude, if i believed a list of 10 rules was the difference between paradise and hell, i would NEVER forget what those rules are. you people don't even believe what you peddle, do you?
Can you explain to me the exact quatum theoretics and behaviors responsible for the Big Bang or the precise biological processes that produced the first cell and allowed it to evolve? (from memory, of course)

Didn't think so.

I probably know more about that than quite a few atheists who believe it here on NS.

In any case, you don't have to know everything about some to believe in it.
I have no idea how gravity works, but I certainly believe it does.


That being said, 1) the ten commandments don't determine whether or not you go to hell. They're just some really good ideas. 2) Sin, all sin, determines whether or not you go to hell. 3) As I explained earlier, unless you're perfect, you don't deserve to go to heaven. No one is perfect. 4) I am no more deserving to go to heaven than anyone else. It is only through grace that I will.

To those of a reasonable mind read this and tell me if this is reasonable under scrutiny.

1(A)In the beginning (B)God (C)created the heavens and the earth.

2The earth was [a](D)formless and void, and (E)darkness was over the surface of the deep, and (F)the Spirit of God (G)was [b]moving over the surface of the waters.


3Then (H)God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.


4God saw that the light was (I)good; and God (J)separated the light from the darkness.


5(K)God called the light day, and the darkness He called night And (L)there was evening and there was morning, one day.


6Then God said, "Let there be an (M)expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."


7God made the [c]expanse, and separated (N)the waters which were below the expanse from the waters (O)which were above the expanse; and it was so.


8God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.


9Then God said, "(P)Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let (Q)the dry land appear"; and it was so.


10God called the dry land earth, and the (R)gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.


11Then God said, "Let the earth sprout (S)vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so.


12The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.


13There was evening and there was morning, a third day.


14Then God said, "Let there be (T)lights in the (U)expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for (V)signs and for (W)seasons and for days and years;


15and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.


16God made the two great lights, the (X)greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made (Y)the stars also.


Read what it says then tell me what the error is. This is good exercise in critical learning. There is logical error in the above verses can anyone find it?

But "God" inspired this he inspired horrid logic and fairy tales??? This is so pathetic that the author could not even see the glaring mistake or thought people would be so stupid as to not figure it out LOL.
Why don't you tell what you think the error is. You seem to think you're smarter than anyone else. By all means, share your glorious wisdom.

Can you explain to me the exact quatum theoretics and behaviors responsible for the Big Bang or the precise biological processes that produced the first cell and allowed it to evolve? (from memory, of course)

Didn't think so.

I probably know more about that than quite a few atheists who believe it here on NS.

um, what does that have to do with anything?

1. quantum physics, Big Bang, etc. etc. are physical theories, not ethical laws. they do not tell people how they should act, nor do they give any information at all about morality. they are not in any way comparable to the 10 Commandments.

2. physical laws of the universe are not things that people can simply choose to follow or to not follow. a person may know the 10 Commandments and choose not to follow them, or a person may simply not follow the 10 Commandments because he doesn't know them in the first place. however, a person's knowledge or understanding of the law of gravity will not have any bearing on the fact that they WILL conform to that law; you cannot choose not to be effected by gravity.

3. show me one atheist who believes that failure to understand the Big Bang gets a human thrown into Hell for all eternity.


In any case, you don't have to know everything about some to believe in it.
I have no idea how gravity works, but I certainly believe it does.

how can you possibly believe in the 10 Commandments if you DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE?! we aren't talking about understanding some complex scientific principle, here, we are talking about a list of 10 sentences. you don't have to understand WHY the 10 Commandments are God's will in order to follow them, but you have to KNOW WHAT THEY ARE to be able to follow them.

further more, your understanding of or belief in gravity has no bearing on whether or not gravity will impact your life. on the other hand, your understanding of or belief in the 10 Commandments directly determines the impact that those Commandments will have on your life.


That being said, 1) the ten commandments don't determine whether or not you go to hell. They're just some really good ideas.

perhaps that's your opinion. many people disagree with you. personally, i think all but 4 of them are lousy ideas.


2) Sin, all sin, determines whether or not you go to hell.

again, purely your opinion. stop trying to state your opinion as fact.


3) As I explained earlier, unless you're perfect, you don't deserve to go to heaven. No one is perfect.

i said knock it off.


4) I am no more deserving to go to heaven than anyone else. It is only through grace that I will.
that's your theory. a great many people disagree, and you have no more evidence to support your claims than they have for their own. why waste time making these statements of yours, when they are totally worthless for the purposes of serious discussion?

Here you go. Unicorns of all things 7: And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
That is Isaiah 34:7 and just too make sure I will post it in original hebrew for you. Because the new translations conviently leave it out.
e)r from (07213)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
R@'em reh-ame'
Parts of Speech TWOT
Noun Masculine 2096a
Definition
probably the great aurochs or wild bulls which are now extinct. The exact meaning is not known.

Translated Words
KJV (9) - unicorn, 9;
NAS (9) - wild ox, 7; wild oxen, 2;


Yeah all the original versions were stated as unicorns. I can pull up the satyrs too and all the other mythical creatures.
Isaiah 34:7 (New International Version)
7 And the wild oxen will fall with them,
the bull calves and the great bulls.
Their land will be drenched with blood,
and the dust will be soaked with fat.

So I don't know what you're talking about...I go with NIV, not JKV.
KJV does have some references, but as I said, NJV was translated poetically, not literally.
And remember, a long time ago, we called manatees mermaids...They see a rhino, called it a hebrew word meaning "ox with a horn", millenia later some guy thinks it means "horse with a horn" and, being a poet, he thinks a pretty white horse with a spiral horn and writes down "unicorn".
So just because we think it translates to unicorn, it doesn't mean it actually does. And maybe it does, but that doesn't mean their idea of a unicorn is our idea of a unicorn.
And, as I said, I've heard stranger tales from professional biologists! Stranger things actually live at the bottom of the ocean.

Your own little source says that the exact meaning isn't known. Why do you think that means it's automatically a unicorn?

And, NAS would be the more accurate version. So you're not proving anything here, except that some guy didn't know hebrew as well as he thought he did a long time ago.

"My most recent faith struggle is not one of intellect. I don't really do that anymore. Sooner or later you just figure out there are some guys who don't believe in God and they can prove He doesn't exist, and some other guys who do believe in God and they can prove He does exist, and the argument stopped being about God a long time ago and now it's about who is smarter, and honestly I don't care. I don't believe I will ever walk away from God for intellectual reasons. Who knows anything anyway?"

-- Donald Miller, Blue Like Jazz, p 103.

that's your theory. a great many people disagree, and you have no more evidence to support your claims than they have for their own. why waste time making these statements of yours, when they are totally worthless for the purposes of serious discussion?

You know I am starting to get rearly fed up of you, and a lot of people on here like you. You know who you are. You ask a Chrisitan to explain his or her belief as you see it as making no sense (Justification faith/works confusion, hell, the need for Jesus death, the validity of the Genesis account etc). When said Christian does so you then go on the "YOU HAVE NO PROOF THATS RIGHT" rant. The Christian you asked BELIEVES its right. They nevery claimed to be certian of its truth in reality, thats what faith is. You asked them to explain their belief they did. You then go saying there belief is wrong because it cant be proved. If you thought that WHY DID YOU ASK?

You know I am starting to get rearly fed up of you, and a lot of people on here like you. You know who you are. You ask a Chrisitan to explain his or her belief as you see it as making no sense (Justification faith/works confusion, hell, the need for Jesus death, the validity of the Genesis account etc). When said Christian does so you then go on the "YOU HAVE NO PROOF THATS RIGHT" rant. The Christian you asked BELIEVES its right. They nevery claimed to be certian of its truth in reality, thats what faith is. You asked them to explain their belief they did. You then go saying there belief is wrong because it cant be proved. If you thought that WHY DID YOU ASK?

Easy there. Anyone who needs to denounce your beliefs that badly is just insecure in theirs. Personally, I've stopped listening to intolerant zealots, of any religious affiliation or lack of religious affiliation, quite a while ago.

OMG, what a cop-out of an answer. Just becuase you believe in God doesn't mean you can't have, and express, an opinion of your own. Now, do you, as a person, feel that a Muslim or an athiest, purely based on their beliefs, deserves to suffer for all of eternity?

Lets get this clear. People are not sent to hell because of their beliefs. They are sent because of sin. If you are a Christian, you will have had sin removed of you through Jesus's death and your own acceptence


5 Basic points of salvation. Acceptence of the following: -

1- That you have sinned/done wrong/been bad etc
2- That you cannot deal with the implications of said sins yourself
3- That you need a power beyond your understanding (God) to deal with it
4- That there is a God beyond your understanding who wants to and can deal with it.
5- Having accepted that you are in the wrong (sinned) you need to do something about it.

By doing these things with sincereity, you will then have your sins removed of your soul. Thus you can enter heven. Had you not done these things, you cannot. Simple as that.

Easy there. Anyone who needs to denounce your beliefs that badly is just insecure in theirs. Personally, I've stopped listening to intolerant zealots, of any religious affiliation or lack of religious affiliation, quite a while ago.

Sorry for over arrogence, I just find it stupid that these people ask a question about a faith and then debunk the answer by saying the faith has no proof.

Sorry for over arrogence, I just find it stupid that these people ask a question about a faith and then debunk the answer by saying the faith has no proof.

"And everyone will hate you because of your allegiance to me."
--Mark 13:13 (NLT)

(Now pardon me, for real life beckons.)

Dump the guy, go with budda, he's not that fun to look at shirtless, but at least he's happier ^_^

um, what does that have to do with anything?

1. quantum physics, Big Bang, etc. etc. are physical theories, not ethical laws. they do not tell people how they should act, nor do they give any information at all about morality. they are not in any way comparable to the 10 Commandments.
ANALOGY! Dammit, why is it that no one seems to understand this concept?

2. physical laws of the universe are not things that people can simply choose to follow or to not follow. a person may know the 10 Commandments and choose not to follow them, or a person may simply not follow the 10 Commandments because he doesn't know them in the first place. however, a person's knowledge or understanding of the law of gravity will not have any bearing on the fact that they WILL conform to that law; you cannot choose not to be effected by gravity.
And you cannot choose to be affected by God's law. Despite popular opinion, not believing in God doesn't make him go away. If you don't want to believe in the ten commandments, fine, but that doesn't make them any less authoritative.
I can choose not to follow the speed limit. That does not change the fact that it's still illegal to speed.
And I can choose not to be affected by gravity. I can get in a rocket and get far enough away from earth so that the gravity does not affect me. But, you're right, gravity will always be there. The Ten Commandments will always be there, no matter how much you wish they weren't.

3. show me one atheist who believes that failure to understand the Big Bang gets a human thrown into Hell for all eternity.
Congratulations, you have missed my point entirely.

how can you possibly believe in the 10 Commandments if you DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE?! we aren't talking about understanding some complex scientific principle, here, we are talking about a list of 10 sentences. you don't have to understand WHY the 10 Commandments are God's will in order to follow them, but you have to KNOW WHAT THEY ARE to be able to follow them.
You don't have to know everything the Bible says to believe that the Bible is true. You should probably learn as much as you can of what the Bible says if you're going to believe it, but that doesn't mean you have to.
And s/he never said he followed them. He just said that they should be followed. In fact, he said that everyone breaks them.

AND, if I'm going 5 mph, I can be pretty sure to follow the speed limit, even if I don't know what the speed limit is. You don't have to know what the law is to break or follow it. I haven't killed anyone...Even if I didn't know that I shouldn't kill people, I'm still not killing people.

further more, your understanding of or belief in gravity has no bearing on whether or not gravity will impact your life. on the other hand, your understanding of or belief in the 10 Commandments directly determines the impact that those Commandments will have on your life.
Not really. If you don't believe in the ten commandments, you're still going to hell. You're going to hell even if you do, but that's besides the point.

And guess what. I believe in the ten commandments, which means I don't think I should kill you. I'm not going to kill you because of that (among other reasons...this is an analogy, just go with it). Thus, the ten commandments has, in a small way, affected your life, despite the fact that you don't believe in them.

perhaps that's your opinion. many people disagree with you. personally, i think all but 4 of them are lousy ideas.
Many people would be wrong. And as arrogant as that sounds, my not saying you're wrong doesn't change the fact that you are, in fact, wrong. I fail to see why I should pretend I might be wrong if I clearly think that I'm not.

again, purely your opinion. stop trying to state your opinion as fact.
I will as soon as you stop stating yours as fact.

i said knock it off.
And I am ignoring you. :D
And I will, as soon as you knock it off.

that's your theory. a great many people disagree, and you have no more evidence to support your claims than they have for their own. why waste time making these statements of yours, when they are totally worthless for the purposes of serious discussion?
For the same reason that you wasted your time making those statements of yours that are totally worthless?

"And everyone will hate you because of your allegiance to me."
--Mark 13:13 (NLT)

(Now pardon me, for real life beckons.)
Doesn't mean we have to like it. :headbang:

"And everyone will hate you because of your allegiance to me."
--Mark 13:13 (NLT)

(Now pardon me, for real life beckons.)

That does not excuse people being stupid

That does not excuse people being stupid
Seriously.