NationStates Jolt Archive

After reading the post one the location of Eden, something bubbled up in the morass I call my mind.

If God is omniscient, He knows all that will happen throughout the course of humanity.

God creates man and places him in the garden of Eden. At this point, God must know Adam and Eve will eat the fruit from the tree, against God's wishes.

God sees them eat the fruit, punishes them (e.g. painful childbirth and other such afflictions) and casts them out of Eden.

If God is omniscient, he knew they would eat the fruit, and yet he still places them in the garden of Eden and still punishes them.

Why bother putting them in Eden then? Why not just start out with the painful childbirth and such, somewhere else in the world? Why give them a taste of bliss and then scold and punish them for something God "knew" they would do?

Why bother putting them in Eden then? Why not just start out with the painful childbirth and such, somewhere else in the world? Why give them a taste of bliss and then scold and punish them for something God "knew" they would do?

Additional, philosophical question:
If Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before eating the fruit, how could they know what they were doing was wrong ?
Yes, I can give some decent arguments towards this myself, but I like to see the debate ;)

Simple. God is omniscient, and so is aware of each of the infinite number of potentialities that can befall any one individual or group. Time, looking like a line, is actually composed of an infinite number of potential threads, each of which is seen in every detail by God. When Adam was tempted and ate the apple, he chose his path, of a possible number set by God. Having given human beings Free Will, strings exist which are contrary to God's Will.. choosing one of these strings for yourself or for your nation may or may not cause God to find it prudent to intervene, as he did in the Garden.

Geeze, I thought you guys new this stuff. :rolleyes:

Additional, philosophical question:
If Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before eating the fruit, how could they know what they were doing was wrong ?
Yes, I can give some decent arguments towards this myself, but I like to see the debate ;)

More questions are certainly welcome! :D

Simple. God is omniscient, and so is aware of each of the infinite number of potentialities that can befall any one individual or group. Time, looking like a line, is actually composed of an infinite number of potential threads, each of which is seen in every detail by God. When Adam was tempted and ate the apple, he chose his path, of a possible number set by God. Having given human beings Free Will, strings exist which are contrary to God's Will.. choosing one of these strings for yourself or for your nation may or may not cause God to find it prudent to intervene, as he did in the Garden.

Geeze, I thought you guys new this stuff. :rolleyes:

Heh heh, its certainly more plausible than the other answers I've heard to the question (usually just some mumbling followed by, I'll find out in heaven). Thanks for the insight. But shouldn't a truly all-seeing, all-knowing God know the exact thread that will be taken? Doesn't God know the exact path that would be followed?

Heh heh, its certainly more plausible than the other answers I've heard to the question (usually just some mumbling followed by, I'll find out in heaven). Thanks for the insight. But shouldn't a truly all-seeing, all-knowing God know the exact thread that will be taken? Doesn't God know the exact path that would be followed?

Sure, God knows what will happen in the future, and He can pull your file at any time. Since God exists outside of time and space, as well as inside of it, He can negotiate any thread with as much or as little attention as He sees fit, but Free Will is indeed the sole limit to God's power, as any intervention, should it force a person to "change" threads, would BE the future, thus immediately creating a second thread conceptually, simply by God's ability to (or not to) affect the individual soul. Therefore, God may sees the future in potentialities, not in terms of a single reality.

Simple. God is omniscient, and so is aware of each of the infinite number of potentialities that can befall any one individual or group. Time, looking like a line, is actually composed of an infinite number of potential threads, each of which is seen in every detail by God. When Adam was tempted and ate the apple, he chose his path, of a possible number set by God. Having given human beings Free Will, strings exist which are contrary to God's Will.. choosing one of these strings for yourself or for your nation may or may not cause God to find it prudent to intervene, as he did in the Garden.

Geeze, I thought you guys new this stuff. :rolleyes:
Only if you abide by the “multiverse” theory but multiple timeline theory has never really been proven either way

Sure, God knows what will happen in the future, and He can pull your file at any time. Since God exists outside of time and space, as well as inside of it, He can negotiate any thread with as much or as little attention as He sees fit, but Free Will is indeed the sole limit to God's power, as any intervention, should it force a person to "change" threads, would BE the future, thus immediately creating a second thread conceptually, simply by God's ability to (or not to) affect the individual soul. Therefore, God may sees the future in potentialities, not in terms of a single reality.

If he cannot see the future in a single reality then he simply is not omnipotent. Then that makes the bible contradict itself in which case the story of Adam and Eve just that a story.

Another point on this subject I took from another website.

Did God create us as sinful beings?

Christians say "no", that sin came into the world by man. This is where my brain starts to hurt over the definition of "sin". As I understand it, "sin" is basically acting in any way other than how God would have me act. In other words, it is the exercise of free will. Correct? If so then we can use the following logic to assert that God made me a sinful being:

If A=B and C=B than A=C.

If God gave me free will, and sin is the exercise of free will, than God made me sinful.

So God is therefore guilty and Adam and Eve never had a chance.

If he cannot see the future in a single reality then he simply is not omnipotent. Then that makes the bible contradict itself in which case the story of Adam and Eve just that a story.

The existence of infinite potentialities doesn't give God any less power to choose whichever He sees fit. This would include the option of one or multiple futures, occuring simultaneously over themselves or separately.

If God is omniscient, he knew they would eat the fruit, and yet he still places them in the garden of Eden and still punishes them.


Well ... every parent knows that their children will misbehave ... it doesn't mean the parent won't punish the child when it does.

The existence of infinite potentialities doesn't give God any less power to choose whichever He sees fit. This would include the option of one or multiple futures, occuring simultaneously over themselves or separately.

This is a true dichotomy either God does know which thread was pulled or he does not.

It does not matter if there are one billion threads or possiblities what matters is does God know ultimately which one is pulled and the end result.

If he know the end result then logic would dictate that he is at fault.

If he does not know then he is not omnipotent.

Either God knew before he created man or he did not know which is it?

Well ... every parent knows that their children will misbehave ... it doesn't mean the parent won't punish the child when it does.
But not every parent has the power to modify the world around their kids. Nor do they have the foresight as to the exact when why and how that it will happen. (not every parent gives a vague story one day and then randomly beats their kids 5 years later because of it either ... nor do parents kill their offspring because of one mistake (no sane parent anyway))

Nor do they have the foresight as to the exact when why and how that it will happen.

Don't be so sure ... I can predict my kids as well as I can predict myself. Parents are very smart.

This is a true dichotomy either God does know which thread was pulled or he does not.

It does not matter if there are one billion threads or possiblities what matters is does God know ultimately which one is pulled and the end result.

If he know the end result then logic would dictate that he is at fault.

If he does not know then he is not omnipotent.

Either God knew before he created man or he did not know which is it?

As long as there is God, there is no 'end result,' unless God chooses not to exist at some point. No past or future reality is outside of God's power to alter, create or destroy, and so no "final" reality exists as long as God exists, except by His fully-cognizant choice to leave it that way.

Don't be so sure ... I can predict my kids as well as I can predict myself. Parents are very smart.
And do you choose to still leave things that could hurt them lying about when you predict they can hurt themselfs with it?

As long as there is God, there is no 'end result,' unless God chooses not to exist at some point. No past or future reality is outside of God's power to alter, create or destroy, and so no "final" reality exists as long as God exists, except by His fully-cognizant choice to leave it that way.

But shouldn't God's actions be predetermined. Whenever there is a choice, one option will be better than the other. We have free will because a) not all of us always want to do the best thing and b) those of us who do can not always tell which is the best thing to do. But God will always do the best thing, and He can never make a mistake. While nothing is outside of God's power, there is only one path that He can take, as if He does not take the best path then He cannot be God.

As long as there is God, there is no 'end result,' unless God chooses not to exist at some point. No past or future reality is outside of God's power to alter, create or destroy, and so no "final" reality exists as long as God exists, except by His fully-cognizant choice to leave it that way.

Ok so you do not believe in the biblegod then because the description you are giving is nothing like the biblegod.

And do you choose to still leave things that could hurt them lying about when you predict they can hurt themselfs with it?

Hurt? No. Give them the opportunity to make the right/wrong choices? Yes. Completely sheltering and coddling a child will lead to an adult who cannot handle the world around them.

Ok so you do not believe in the biblegod then because the description you are giving is nothing like the biblegod.

Prophesy is a prediction of God's actions. The covenant between God and Man, delivered through Christ is a prophesy and an account of the nature of God. If you believe this to be true, then you are a Christian. But even one who has faith that God will, as promised, act in the way it has been said He will act, it is no contradiction to say that He is bound to that action. Allowing that God has infinite power of any conceptual potentiality doesn't entail that the prophesy is incorrect - it is within God's capabilities to fulfill it.

Hurt? No. Give them the opportunity to make the right/wrong choices? Yes. Completely sheltering and coddling a child will lead to an adult who cannot handle the world around them.
Yeah but unlike a learning experience where if you do wrong you get to learn that it is wrong in this case you learn you are wrong you are dead and burning in hell hardly learning experience

Prophesy is a prediction of God's actions. The covenant between God and Man, delivered through Christ is a prophesy and an account of the nature of God. If you believe this to be true, then you are a Christian. But even one who has faith that God will, as promised, act in the way it has been said He will act, it is no contradiction to say that He is bound to that action. Allowing that God has infinite power of any conceptual potentiality doesn't entail that the prophesy is incorrect - it is within God's capabilities to fulfill it.


So then God can defy his own word? Then his word is therefore not to be trusted.

Also God sacrificed himself to himself to somehow atone for man acting within his free will. This makes no logical sense it is not reasonable.

Where is your source for believing this is true? The bible? Well God can alter it at a whim so it is therefore invalid as a true source.

So then God can defy his own word? Then his word is therefore not to be trusted.

Also God sacrificed himself to himself to somehow atone for man acting within his free will. This makes no logical sense it is not reasonable.

Where is your source for believing this is true? The bible? Well God can alter it at a whim so it is therefore invalid as a true source.

He can, but this is not to say He will. I'm not too sure who other than God it would be better to trust ultimately, and a promise from God, while not outside His power to break, would seem to be prudent to believe, if your faith leads you to believe it has been made.

I'm off to the shower and then to work. Good talking to everyone, and I'll check this thread later. :)

Edit: It should be said that no opinion of mine on this thread is endorsed by any organized church... if it weren't obvious.

He can, but this is not to say He will. I'm not too sure who other than God it would be better to trust ultimately, and a promise from God, while not outside His power to break, would seem to be prudent to believe, if your faith leads you to believe it has been made.

I'm off to the shower and then to work. Good talking to everyone, and I'll check this thread later. :)

This promise comes from where? The bible? We have already decided it is not trustworthy as God can change his mind. plus the bible says he cannot change so which is it?

Malachi 3:6 says “ For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” And finally, James 1:17 tells us “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.”


It appears that either God is a liar or whoever wrote that is a liar. I will go with the writer is a liar and the bible is false the biblegod is tyrannical creature invented by man to hold fear over those that lack reason.

Hurt? No. Give them the opportunity to make the right/wrong choices? Yes. Completely sheltering and coddling a child will lead to an adult who cannot handle the world around them.

This is definitly a matter of harm, if one considers Christian belief. These people are putting their souls in peril. Regardless of whether it gives them the chance to choose right and wrong, if the parent analogy is continued, God should not have put them there.

That'd be like a parent leaving a young child in a room with rat poison on a table, figuring "well, this will help them learn and grow, regardless of the result."

This is definitly a matter of harm, if one considers Christian belief. These people are putting their souls in peril. Regardless of whether it gives them the chance to choose right and wrong, if the parent analogy is continued, God should not have put them there.

That'd be like a parent leaving a young child in a room with rat poison on a table, figuring "well, this will help them learn and grow, regardless of the result."
Like I said sheltering too much is bad but this is a life or death (of not only you but all your decedents) little more riding on this then a parent teaching their kid

Not to mention that they could not “learn” from being able to die they make the mistake it is over with for all eternity

Yeah but unlike a learning experience where if you do wrong you get to learn that it is wrong in this case you learn you are wrong you are dead and burning in hell hardly learning experience

Adam and Eve aren't banished to Hell, just to Earth. God didn't even banish Cain to Hell, merely to immortality. As a matter of fact, I don't think anything is banished to Hell until Revelations where it speaks of Jesus (not God) sending people into eternal fire. Go figure.

The whole banishment from Eden thing is understandable as a parental punishment. I mean, you got your kids there, they've grown, they're hangin' around, and then they do the ONE THING you've told them not to do.

So, you kick them out of the house for a while - we're not talkin' young kids here. But why punish them for thousands of generations? That's what makes no sense to me.

It would be like if my kids had kids and I punished my grandkids for something my kid did. To paraphrase a great Gnostic philosopher, it's about time for God to lean out the window and say, "Adam! Come in and wash your face. It's time for supper."

The Creation/Fall story reads a bit differently in Hebrew, but the perpetual punishment idea is still in there.

While searching on the subject, I found another interesting passage in the Bible:

"No one whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off may be admitted into the community of the Lord. No child of an incestuous or adulterous union may be admitted into the community of the Lord, nor any descendant of his even to the tenth generation." (Deuteronomy 23:2-3).

That's quite odd...an all-loving God won't allow an enuch into his presence...that would mean that because of some freak accident, a person could be severed from the Christian god forever. In the second part of the verse, an innocent child is barred from heaven. Another interesting site for all:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/errancy.shtml

After reading the post one the location of Eden, something bubbled up in the morass I call my mind.

If God is omniscient, He knows all that will happen throughout the course of humanity.

God creates man and places him in the garden of Eden. At this point, God must know Adam and Eve will eat the fruit from the tree, against God's wishes.

God sees them eat the fruit, punishes them (e.g. painful childbirth and other such afflictions) and casts them out of Eden.

If God is omniscient, he knew they would eat the fruit, and yet he still places them in the garden of Eden and still punishes them.

Why bother putting them in Eden then? Why not just start out with the painful childbirth and such, somewhere else in the world? Why give them a taste of bliss and then scold and punish them for something God "knew" they would do?

Because they still have the freedom and right to live their lives and make their choices, even if they are poor ones. God didn't make us robots or only allow those who would be completely faithful to Him for eternity to come into existence. He allows us to chose our allegience.

While searching on the subject, I found another interesting passage in the Bible:

"No one whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off may be admitted into the community of the Lord. No child of an incestuous or adulterous union may be admitted into the community of the Lord, nor any descendant of his even to the tenth generation." (Deuteronomy 23:2-3).

That's quite odd...an all-loving God won't allow an enuch into his presence...that would mean that because of some freak accident, a person could be severed from the Christian god forever. In the second part of the verse, an innocent child is barred from heaven. Another interesting site for all:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/errancy.shtml


Where does it say that? The Bible dicates only that infidels are not allowed into the community, and sinners against his name.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2023:1-3;&version=9;

After reading the post one the location of Eden, something bubbled up in the morass I call my mind.

If God is omniscient, He knows all that will happen throughout the course of humanity.

God creates man and places him in the garden of Eden. At this point, God must know Adam and Eve will eat the fruit from the tree, against God's wishes.

God sees them eat the fruit, punishes them (e.g. painful childbirth and other such afflictions) and casts them out of Eden.

If God is omniscient, he knew they would eat the fruit, and yet he still places them in the garden of Eden and still punishes them.

Why bother putting them in Eden then? Why not just start out with the painful childbirth and such, somewhere else in the world? Why give them a taste of bliss and then scold and punish them for something God "knew" they would do?
1. Choice. God doesn't want to force us to worship him. He was giving them the choice to sin.
2. Just because he knew, it doesn't make it his fault. I know that someone is going to flame me for saying this, but that doesn't mean it's my fault they flamed me.

God is omniescent, but omniescense doesnt mean that he chooses to intervene in all of the worlds affairs. God is a symbol that we follow, not so much a divine deity and ruler of the universe. He gave Adam and Eve the choice to stay divine or to follow a different path. Omniescense doesnt nessacarily mean he knows everything about all.

Another intersting question is what exactly did God mean when It said 'man has become like us' after Adam an dEve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. This statement makes it seem like humanity obtained far more than sin and death from that act. It is also interesting that God kicked them out of Eden so that they wouldn't be able to eat of the Tree of Life and gain immortality, almost of if it was afraid of that possibility.
Perhaps the rule was meant to prevent humans from becomming God's equals.

Because they still have the freedom and right to live their lives and make their choices, even if they are poor ones. God didn't make us robots or only allow those who would be completely faithful to Him for eternity to come into existence. He allows us to chose our allegience.
even if they are incapable
*goes and puts knife on counter allowing 4 year old to use what he has had no experience with*

of course you all realize that the story of adam and eve is an allegory, a religious myth set to explain why life sucks. its not meant to be taken literally.

but in any case, if we just were set outside the garden, suffering hunger, pain, nakedness, etc. we would be being unjustly punished by god for something we didnt even DO. wheres the fairness of that?

even if they are incapable
*goes and puts knife on counter allowing 4 year old to use what he has had no experience with*

They were mature enough to understand that death and the knowledge of evil was not a good thing. They chose, with informed consent, to believe a lie rather than to believe God.

of course you all realize that the story of adam and eve is an allegory, a religious myth set to explain why life sucks. its not meant to be taken literally.

but in any case, if we just were set outside the garden, suffering hunger, pain, nakedness, etc. we would be being unjustly punished by god for something we didnt even DO. wheres the fairness of that?

You're entitiled to your opinion. I humbly disagree. I do believe it was a literal reality. For my arguments to that affect, please look up my old posts.

They were mature enough to understand that death and the knowledge of evil was not a good thing. They chose, with informed consent, to believe a lie rather than to believe God.
But then we get in the argument of not having experience nor comparison capability to really KNOW what they were deciding
(but eventually we will argue this to the point where someone was just be “god is omnipotent so he just made them know” and we will argue some more including if they truly know why did they decide)

You're entitiled to your opinion. I humbly disagree. I do believe it was a literal reality. For my arguments to that affect, please look up my old posts.
ya ya fine

but doesnt my point stand? that it would have been wrong for god to skip the garden of eden part just because he knew how it would turn out? that it would be punishing us for something we didnt do?

After reading the post one the location of Eden, something bubbled up in the morass I call my mind.

If God is omniscient, He knows all that will happen throughout the course of humanity.

God creates man and places him in the garden of Eden. At this point, God must know Adam and Eve will eat the fruit from the tree, against God's wishes.

God sees them eat the fruit, punishes them (e.g. painful childbirth and other such afflictions) and casts them out of Eden.

If God is omniscient, he knew they would eat the fruit, and yet he still places them in the garden of Eden and still punishes them.

Why bother putting them in Eden then? Why not just start out with the painful childbirth and such, somewhere else in the world? Why give them a taste of bliss and then scold and punish them for something God "knew" they would do?

yes I agree completely....I think the reason Christians give is that it was a test for humankind........although, havign said that.....if he knew what the outcome of his test was going to be, what'ds the point in it? lol hmmm

1. Choice. God doesn't want to force us to worship him. He was giving them the choice to sin.
2. Just because he knew, it doesn't make it his fault. I know that someone is going to flame me for saying this, but that doesn't mean it's my fault they flamed me.


God doesn't want to force us?? UMMM it is the ultimate ultimatum. Either worship me or suffer for eternity.

That is force by manner of reason you simply cannot escape reason.

Like I posted on the other thread.

If a boyfriend holds a gun to his girlfriends head and says love me and she says no and shoots her then it is not his fault he can say "See what you made me do"

This is exactly what the biblegod is doing he is holding hell to our heads and either love me or else you get hell. If I say no then the biblegod says "See what you made me do."

They were mature enough to understand that death and the knowledge of evil was not a good thing. They chose, with informed consent, to believe a lie rather than to believe God.

How the hell do you CHOOSE to believe in a lie?

Especially since they'd never heard of the concept?

And why the bloody would the deity in question let in a villain?

yes I agree completely....I think the reason Christians give is that it was a test for humankind........although, havign said that.....if he knew what the outcome of his test was going to be, what'ds the point in it? lol hmmm

They then go on to talk about free will though.
(Oh Cress, could you go to the SPAM page a minute)

of course you all realize that the story of adam and eve is an allegory, a religious myth set to explain why life sucks. its not meant to be taken literally.
Haha! I'm sorry... "Life sucks" is not what it's about. Death is not something to be feared or dispised. It is a natural end to life.

Go foot fungus!

ya ya fine

but doesnt my point stand? that it would have been wrong for god to skip the garden of eden part just because he knew how it would turn out? that it would be punishing us for something we didnt do?

Partially correct at least. I believe that God corrects/chastens those He loves, like a parent with a child. Notice though, that He was not vengful with Adam and Eve, and that rather than destroy or even just allowing them to suffer the imidiate natural consequence of cutting themselves off from Him by their sins, He made a way for them to be forgiven and accepted back into His family that allowed both for His Love/Mercy and His Justice/Law to co-exist. He did that by dying in their place. Yes, He gave them reminders of sin in His curses, but He also provided them the ultimate hope that sin would ultimately be destroyed.

But then we get in the argument of not having experience nor comparison capability to really KNOW what they were deciding
(but eventually we will argue this to the point where someone was just be “god is omnipotent so he just made them know” and we will argue some more including if they truly know why did they decide)


Yes, UT, you and me could go round and round with this subject for eternity I suppose. IMO there is enough evidence in the story to suggest that they knew, but I suspect you disagree. The why, IMO, they chose to believe a lie rather than to believe God. Ultimately, that is a choice all of us will have to make at some point in life.

This whole things could have been avoided if the tree of life didn't exist in Eden. So why was it there? Why does christian mythos state that a tree no man should touch was on earth? Was this only a test? Do you think it had any other purpose?

I'm sorry, I'm sure Christans will disagree, but after reading the bible I can only come to one conclusion. God is a jerk. I've read the book, and interpret it far differently than Christians do. Anybody in that position with that kind of power that does those things is an egomaniacal jerk. He encourages mass murder, slavery and a host of other crimes. And he picked some real losers as his favorites. He changed the rules frequently and if he liked you, you could literally get away with murder. But hey, he might be a nice guy if medicated properly.

I'm sorry, I'm sure Christans will disagree, but after reading the bible I can only come to one conclusion. God is a jerk. I've read the book, and interpret it far differently than Christians do. Anybody in that position with that kind of power that does those things is an egomaniacal jerk. He encourages mass murder, slavery and a host of other crimes. And he picked some real losers as his favorites. He changed the rules frequently and if he liked you, you could literally get away with murder. But hey, he might be a nice guy if medicated properly.
The first time I read the Old Testament, the violence turned my stomach. That was before I saw "Alien" and started off on my trek of appreciating action movies.

Everything in the bible would seem a whole lot more logical if it were just assumed from the start that god was a jerk. Then it wouldn't be nearly so hard to explain his actions.

Everything in the bible would seem a whole lot more logical if it were just assumed from the start that god was a jerk. Then it wouldn't be nearly so hard to explain his actions.
Thats why sometimes I think good old school greek and roman gods made more sense ... gods that were powerfull but some mean and some corrupt and some angry and some peacefull and some forgiving
Would fit reality a lot better then a one "all everything good but nothing bad" god