NationStates Jolt Archive

So here we are, neither believing nor disbelieving. We are usually depicted as beign in between two states of affairs. The theists who yell at people for not believing group us in with the atheists and the atheists who yell at people for believing often look down on us too.

I once had a christian and an atheist yell at me to "Pick a side" it was really stupid.

Anyways. Sometimes it's tough when you admit that you don't know in a world where everyone is so certian of everything whether they can prove it or not. So hey, let's just get together here and you know, not be insulted... :)

I can't decide if I should unite with you or not... ;)

Agnosticism w00t: 2x the people to make fun of. :p

lol

Indeed. Plus twice the number of people to debate with... Debating from either side is fun.

Sounds a lot like being bisexual...


....hot...

Sounds a lot like being bisexual...


....hot...

Damn right its hot. We get so many stray laval flows from Hell here in Limbo that we have to take off all our clothes to stay cool.

Well, I'm a non-nudist Agnostic :)

Yeah, but to tell the truth, I'm more of an athiest who gives religion the benefit of the doubt.

I'm an atheist at heart, though the whole ineffability clause throws me off and I continue to doubt both sides.

Sounds a lot like being bisexual...


....hot...
Oh baby. ;)

How about an agnostic who specialises in Taoism? Would you accept that?

How about an agnostic who specialises in Taoism? Would you accept that?
Sure thing!

Buddhism has a special place in my heart afterall.

Yea, that bean bag chair you bought for us Zen guys last month is really great. Thanks Dakini.

How about an agnostic who specialises in Taoism? Would you accept that?

NO.

...

...

I guess Im overuled.

jk btw

even if agnostics don't get into heaven, at least we're right

Finally, a cause we can truly not be sure about believing in!

Agnostics unite! Pleased to join you. I describe myself as a 'Christian Humanist', but who am I kidding? Really I'm just another agnostic.

I'm in. Simply because I'm not arrogant enough to claim to know who or what created the universe, and what they want, if anything, from us.

Actually, I think I'm a Diagnostic. I'm not really sure whether or not I'm not really sure if there is a god. Or not.

Your all nuts.
*Sits in magically appearing bean bag chair.*

Anyways. Sometimes it's tough when you admit that you don't know in a world where everyone is so certian of everything whether they can prove it or not.

Is there, or has there ever been, a living quadruped creature with a horn in the middle of its head which magically cured sick people who touched it?

For the sake of the discussion, lets call this thing a unicorn.

Yay! I'm being accepted!

Agnosticism is a painful thing. It's born of doubt, and remains nestled in the mind - a constant source of doubt for everything that could be comforting. The atheist takes comfort in the laws of nature and the strength of his convictions, and the theist takes comfort in the existence of God and an afterlife and the strength of his convictions.. The agnostic has neither, and cannot choose either, because s/he understands that neither is side is necessarily correct...

It's sad. And hard.

Mmm...I already like this topic.

I am a deeply spiritual person, I believe that everything and everyone has their places in the Universe, and wholeheartedly believe in aliens, demons, angels, even if I haven't seen them. I don't need to sense them, I just know they exist. Just like we do.

However, I am too wishy-washy morally to really feel like I belong in an organized religion. Every religion has its taboos, rituals and beliefs that come alongside it. However, my heart finds itself constantly challenging those beliefs, due to the fact that I am easily stirred emotionally. I tend to be sympathetic and touched when I hear of anyone's personal story, which results in all of my decisions making little to no sense. I am a firm believer in 'there are alway exceptions'

Hence, I tend to be agnostic if anything. I'll shut up now...but nice topic. ^^

-Asylum Nova

Is there, or has there ever been, a living quadruped creature with a horn in the middle of its head which magically cured sick people who touched it?

For the sake of the discussion, lets call this thing a unicorn.

'Do you know, I always thought unicorns were fabulous monsters, too? I never saw one alive before!' 'Well, now that we have seen each other,' said the unicorn, 'if you believe in me, I'll believe in you.' "
---Lewis Carroll; Through the Looking Glass

Agnosticism is a painful thing. It's born of doubt, and remains nestled in the mind - a constant source of doubt for everything that could be comforting. The atheist takes comfort in the laws of nature and the strength of his convictions, and the theist takes comfort in the existence of God and an afterlife and the strength of his convictions.. The agnostic has neither, and cannot choose either, because s/he understands that neither is side is necessarily correct...

It's sad. And hard.


To put it more simply, "Blessed is the mind too small to doubt." Yes?

Agnostic because there is no proof for or against any faith. I am however closer to being atheist due to my irrational dislike of organized religion.

Is there, or has there ever been, a living quadruped creature with a horn in the middle of its head which magically cured sick people who touched it?

For the sake of the discussion, lets call this thing a unicorn.
Well, if you're talking in the entire universe, then it's quite possible.

On this planet, while there is no fossil evidence for such unicorns, a large number of organisms do not get fossilized, thus it is possible for something to die and leave no trace, especially with animals in nature being how they are and scatterning corpses left to the elements...

I can believe in a higher power, a 'god' if you like, but I really don't know who/what this god would be. I've gone from being a Catholic and believing quite strongly in a personal god, to just taking this sort of neutral stance. The teachings of Christ are certainly still to be valued (tolerance, love, compassion, do not judge...), I find the basic concept of Christianity appealing, but I refuse to take the Bible literally and I really don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. So hence, I'm just confused... grrrr.

I dislike organized religion as well. However, my beefs more with the religion rather than the worshippers. Except for Fred Phelps. He's a douche.

I can believe in a higher power, a 'god' if you like, but I really don't know who/what this god would be. I've gone from being a Catholic and believing quite strongly in a personal god, to just taking this sort of neutral stance. The teachings of Christ are certainly still to be valued, I find the basic concept of Christianity appealing, but I refuse to take the Bible literally and I really don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. So hence, I'm just confused... grrrr.

Ive gone from a really irreligious catholic floating back and forth (4th to 7th) to agnostic/atheist (8th and part of 9th) to agnostic (now).

Ive gone from a really irreligious catholic floating back and forth (4th to 7th) to agnostic/atheist (8th and part of 9th) to agnostic (now).

4th to 7th? 8th to 9th? Ga?

I can believe in a higher power, a 'god' if you like, but I really don't know who/what this god would be. I've gone from being a Catholic and believing quite strongly in a personal god, to just taking this sort of neutral stance. The teachings of Christ are certainly still to be valued (tolerance, love, compassion, do not judge...), I find the basic concept of Christianity appealing, but I refuse to take the Bible literally and I really don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. So hence, I'm just confused... grrrr.
Christianity isn't the only thing out there. Explore a little. Most religions advocate love, compassion and a lack of judging in some form or another...

Awesome

I'd give you a high five and yell "score" if you were here.

4th to 7th? 8th to 9th? Ga?

forgot to say Grade :(

Christianity isn't the only thing out there. Explore a little. Most religions advocate love, compassion and a lack of judging in some form or another...

True. But I kinda like the idea of my own personal religion of confusion which only I understand. :p

forgot to say Grade :(

Oh! I see. Yeah, I was a Catholic up until about the age of 13 when I started to question everything. For a short time I was leaning very strongly towards atheism too, calling myself a 'secular humanist', but over the last couple of years I've arrived here.

I dislike organized religion as well. However, my beefs more with the religion rather than the worshippers. Except for Fred Phelps. He's a douche.
My beef is more due to the fact that although I'm not against faith, I really hate it when people believe simply because either a person or a book told them to. I think that if god wants you to believe it will reveal itself to people personally, not through a proxy and not after you read/interact with proxy.

My beef is more due to the fact that although I'm not against faith, I really hate it when people believe simply because either a person or a book told them to. I think that if god wants you to believe it will reveal itself to people personally, not through a proxy.

Yes. That’s frustrating. It’s like… I read this on a box of cereal, does that make it true!?

Yes. That’s frustrating. It’s like… I read this on a box of cereal, does that make it true!?
well it's more like "person of authority says it's true and i'm young and/or ignorant so it must be true!" or "i need to believe so i'm going to go with whatever sounds nice"

Yes! An interesting topic! I agree with Cuddly Bunny about not believing everything you hear from a person/book but I'm also a university student that believes what my profs say and what the textbook tells me. Kind of makes me a hypocrite. :(

I can believe in a higher power, a 'god' if you like, but I really don't know who/what this god would be. I've gone from being a Catholic and believing quite strongly in a personal god, to just taking this sort of neutral stance. The teachings of Christ are certainly still to be valued (tolerance, love, compassion, do not judge...), I find the basic concept of Christianity appealing, but I refuse to take the Bible literally and I really don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. So hence, I'm just confused... grrrr.

Ever hear of the Baha'i Faith?


O SON OF DUST!
All that is in heaven and earth I have ordained for thee, except the human heart, which I have made the habitation of My beauty and glory; yet thou didst give My home and dwelling to another than Me; and whenever the manifestation of My holiness sought His own abode, a stranger found He there, and, homeless, hastened unto the sanctuary of the Beloved. Notwithstanding I have concealed thy secret and desired not thy shame.

(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

well it's more like "person of authority says it's true and i'm young and/or ignorant so it must be true!" or "i need to believe so i'm going to go with whatever sounds nice"

lol. Yeah... it really makes me sad when I hear people say that the Bible is free of error. What pisses me off more though, is how some pick and choose what they interpret as literal. Homosexuality in the Bible is a prime example.

Ever hear of the Baha'i Faith?


O SON OF DUST!
All that is in heaven and earth I have ordained for thee, except the human heart, which I have made the habitation of My beauty and glory; yet thou didst give My home and dwelling to another than Me; and whenever the manifestation of My holiness sought His own abode, a stranger found He there, and, homeless, hastened unto the sanctuary of the Beloved. Notwithstanding I have concealed thy secret and desired not thy shame.

(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

Interesting.

My agnostic status may not last,as I'm thinking of becoming a Prophet and making my own religion :)

I've contemplted it many times, I just lack the time to make a Holy Book with my prophecies. I wouldn't mind the high status and grants for being a "faith-based" organization :)

My beef is more due to the fact that although I'm not against faith, I really hate it when people believe simply because either a person or a book told them to. I think that if god wants you to believe it will reveal itself to people personally, not through a proxy and not after you read/interact with proxy.

Compare God to the life-giving sun that is needed to sustain life, if that sun came to close we would burn up. Therefore the sun's rays bring to earth the energy that is necessary for life. Likewise, God sends Messengers to share with humanity the necessary laws for the betterment of the world.

My agnostic status may not last,as I'm thinking of becoming a Prophet and making my own religion :)

I've contemplted it many times, I just lack the time to make a Holy Book with my prophecies. I wouldn't mind the high status and grants for being a "faith-based" organization :)

Sai Baba!

Good - we aren't here for you to preach at us. Out, foul demon, out :)

JRV - Huh?

As an Antitheist, I spit on you agnostics for being too scared, or too indecisive to be antitheist(Or atheist).

Compare God to the life-giving sun that is needed to sustain life, if that sun came to close we would burn up. Therefore the sun's rays bring to earth the energy that is necessary for life. Likewise, God sends Messengers to share with humanity the necessary laws for the betterment of the world.
Blasphemy! Are you implying that God is limited?:) Seriously though I think a god could reveal himself in ways that will not hurt us. It happens all the time in religious stories.

My agnostic status may not last,as I'm thinking of becoming a Prophet and making my own religion :)

I've contemplted it many times, I just lack the time to make a Holy Book with my prophecies. I wouldn't mind the high status and grants for being a "faith-based" organization :)

You sure can if you want to, and you might even succede for a short time. But I don't if it will last for a day beyond your death.

Good - we aren't here for you to preach at us. Out, foul demon, out :)

JRV - Huh?

Sai Baba...http://www.sathyasai.org/

My views on religon is that: #1. there must be some form of higher being as the world is just too 'perfect', and #2. that all attempts at defining sed higher being (aka religions) are only artistic and intracate representations of man's instinctual need to beleive in some higher entity/guiding force...nothing more...my thought on this being: how can we as miniscule finite human beings even attempt to comprehend the actions and intentions of an infinitely large higher being?

Blasphemy! Are you implying that God is limited?:) Seriously though I think a god could reveal himself in ways that we can understand. It happens all the time in religious stories.

God does reveal Himself though His Messengers. It is through the Messengers that we can more fully understand the purpose of religion.

As an Antitheist, I spit on you agnostics for being too scared, or too indecisive to be antitheist(Or atheist).

I spit on anti-theists for being so closed minded. :D

God does reveal Himself though His Messengers. It is through the Messengers that we can more fully understand the purpose of religion.
Why use messengers when you can talk to everyone at once?

I spit on anti-theists for being so closed minded. :D

Being close minded is fine, when you are right.

I spit on anti-theists for being so closed minded. :D



-AMEN- :D

I spit on anti-theists for being so closed minded. :D

Jeez...I'm getting a bath in this post. Say Baha'u'llah

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/bahai/

To put it more simply, "Blessed is the mind too small to doubt." Yes?

Though it's a painfully derogatory thing to say about someone who has faith in a religion - or faith in anti-religion, so to speak - in life, in the human psychology, that is correct. It's easier to be ignorant and unquestioning than it is to be knowledgable and questioning. You know where you stand in life.. hell, for some, you know what the meaning of life is, the very reason you're here.

There's no certainty in my spirituality, and as a result, I have a lot of fears of that sort. What happens after I die? What if one of the other religions is "correct" and I were to choose the "wrong" one? If there is no God, what logical justification is there for being good or moral? Blah blah blah. The stuff that keeps me awake at night.

Sai Baba seems like a good guru, he does teach tolerance and respect.

GT, I know my religion won't last, I'm not entirely serious. But if my holy book was published, I could actually get a decent following - cults have been started with less. Cults usually collapse because the leader is all the cult has, so after his or her death it is over; since I will be a prophet and not a divine, there will be more of a following and it will survive my death. Soon, the cult will gain a large enough following to become a full-fledged religion! Hey, a guy can dream, right?

Why use messengers when you can talk to everyone at once?

If you talk to everyone at once then there is no freedom of choice, or free will if you will.

Being close minded is fine, when you are right.
can you prove you are right anymore than theists can prove they are?

We aren't here for you to preach at us either. *sticks out tongue*

If you talk to everyone at once then there is no freedom of choice, or free will if you will.
We still have the choice whether to listen, and whether to do what he says or ignore what he tells us.

Sai Baba seems like a good guru, he does teach tolerance and respect.

GT, I know my religion won't last, I'm not entirely serious. But if my holy book was published, I could actually get a decent following - cults have been started with less. Cults usually collapse because the leader is all the cult has, so after his or her death it is over; since I will be a prophet and not a divine, there will be more of a following and it will survive my death. Soon, the cult will gain a large enough following to become a full-fledged religion! Hey, a guy can dream, right?

Sure, dreams are good.

We still have the choice whether to listen, and whether to do what he says or ignore what he tells us.

God is not a physical being. One can think of God as the unknowable essence. He is beyond our true, complete understanding. If God were to appear in His full splendor no human could deny His reality. Just as being too close to the sun would burn us up.

We wouldn't deny his existance, just not do what he says. That choice is always there. Also, why does it matter whether we have free will? There will be plenty of time for that in heaven, right?

If you talk to everyone at once then there is no freedom of choice, or free will if you will.
There is a difference between talking and controlling... Btw what happens if you don't accept god in the Baha'u'llah faith?

There is a difference between talking and controlling... Btw what happens if you don't accept god on the Baha'u'llah faith?

If you don't accept God that is between you and God. It is none of my business. It is almost 2 AM here and I need to go to bed.

God is not a physical being. One can think of God as the unknowable essence. He is beyond our true, complete understanding. If God were to appear in His full splendor no human could deny His reality. Just as being too close to the sun would burn us up.
We may not understand him but he understands us and can let us know him (to our limited extent) w/o the clumsy useage of avatars. Which always cause issues. What with all those bloodthirsty people out there with all those opposing views...

Goodnight.

can you prove you are right anymore than theists can prove they are?

We aren't here for you to preach at us either. *sticks out tongue*

A. Its for the believer to prove, not the non-believer.

B. I dont need proof. I know i'm right. Just like I know im right that there will never be a giant pink bunny drinking out of my pool.

We wouldn't deny his existance, just not do what he says. That choice is always there. Also, why does it matter whether we have free will? There will be plenty of time for that in heaven, right?

In the Baha'i concept of heaven our position in heaven is dependent upon our acquiring virtues in this world. That is where free will comes in. If you accept the concept of the one Creator of all life then you realise that to have even one glimpse of His true reality would remove all possible doubt. There would not be choice. Your soul could not, not recognize it's Creator. It is bedtime for me.

A. Its for the believer to prove, not the non-believer.

B. I dont need proof. I know i'm right. Just like I know im right that there will never be a giant pink bunny drinking out of my pool.
Actually since neither side has resonable proof both sides must show evidence. (ex if "I said pluto has green rabbits" and someone else said "NO! It has purple elfs" we'll both have to show proof)

So here we are, neither believing nor disbelieving. We are usually depicted as beign in between two states of affairs. The theists who yell at people for not believing group us in with the atheists and the atheists who yell at people for believing often look down on us too.

I once had a christian and an atheist yell at me to "Pick a side" it was really stupid.

Anyways. Sometimes it's tough when you admit that you don't know in a world where everyone is so certian of everything whether they can prove it or not. So hey, let's just get together here and you know, not be insulted... :)


Yep, I'm one. I'm only human, and I don't know if there's someone pulling all the strings. Can't quite dismiss him, and can't quite believe in him. So why try?

A. Its for the believer to prove, not the non-believer.

B. I dont need proof. I know i'm right. Just like I know im right that there will never be a giant pink bunny drinking out of my pool.
You mean just like they don't need proof, because they know they are right?

You sure can if you want to, and you might even succede for a short time. But I don't if it will last for a day beyond your death.
I'm sorry, but no one knows what occurs after death. You don't know any better than anyone here.

Stop trying to convert people. It's one thing to talk about your religion, it's another to advertise...

Finally, a cause we can truly not be sure about believing in!
funny, but unfortunately this perpetuates a common misconception about agnostics.

a true agnostic isn't "unsure" about their belief. a true agnostic fully and firmly believes that the existence or non-existence of God is unknowable; that's VERY different from simply being unsure or undecided on the topic.

God is not a physical being. One can think of God as the unknowable essence. He is beyond our true, complete understanding. If God were to appear in His full splendor no human could deny His reality. Just as being too close to the sun would burn us up.
Ed The Purple Unicorn is not a physical being. One can think of Ed The Purple Unicorn as the unknowable essence. He is beyond our true, complete understanding. If Ed The Purple Unicorn were to appear in His full splendor no human could deny His reality. Just as being too close to the sun would burn us up.

i do this not to be insulting, but to show you how pointless and ludicrous your statements are. unless you can supply a single reason why we should believe in your God rather than Ed The Purple Unicorn, you are wasting your time.

Doubt is not restricted to only agnostics.
Faith must be challenged and reaffirmed if it is to be true.

Doubt is not restricted to only agnostics.
Faith must be challenged and reaffirmed if it is to be true.
and how, pray tell, do you "challenge" something for which there can never be any proof? doesn't it pretty much amount to:

"Gee, now that I think about it, these beliefs of mine are a bit odd. I mean, fellows walking on water? Could that be right?"
*ponder ponder ponder*
"Yeah, I think they're right."
*problem solved, curtain, applause*

or possibly the slightly longer version:

"Gee, now that I think about it, these beliefs of mine are a bit odd. I mean, fellows walking on water? Could that be right?"
*goes to visit religious leader who (obviously) does believe in the water-walking and so forth*
"So, Mr. Religious Leader, do these beliefs really make sense?"
"Yes, they do."
*problem solved, curtain, applause*

Agnostic here. I don't believe that any of us have enough knowledge to know if there is a higher being, I'm not so arrogant as to think I know something that I simply cannot know for sure.

and how, pray tell, do you "challenge" something for which there can never be any proof? doesn't it pretty much amount to:

"Gee, now that I think about it, these beliefs of mine are a bit odd. I mean, fellows walking on water? Could that be right?"
*ponder ponder ponder*
"Yeah, I think they're right."
*problem solved, curtain, applause*
Silly Bottle.
As a Christian, I have faith that these things really happened in actual space-time, so if someone were to be able to come up to me and disprove any part of the Bible that they did not interpret incorrectly (and a lot of that goes around), then my belief system would be disproven.
Thus, when some bumpkin who operates off of a humanistic standpoint attempts to prove Macroevolutionary Theory to me, I am obligated to defend my beliefs against that statement or accept the new viewpoint as true.
Being able to intellectually defend one's faith does not remove the faith itself.

Oh, and nothing else makes sense.

A favorite quote of mine relating to Agnosticism:

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear". --Thomas Jefferson

I posted that quote twice today, lol.

Silly Bottle.
As a Christian, I have faith that these things really happened in actual space-time, so if someone were to be able to come up to me and disprove any part of the Bible that they did not interpret incorrectly (and a lot of that goes around), then my belief system would be disproven.

but look at where you are starting:

you ASSUME that what ONE book describes must be factually true, and then expect other people to disprove it. you also decide what the "correct" interpretation of that book is, and thereby rule out the objections of people who interpret it "incorrectly."


Thus, when some bumpkin who operates of a humanistic standpoint attempts to prove Macroevolutionary Theory to me, I am obligated to defend my beliefs against that statement or accept the new viewpoint as true.
Being able to intellectually defend one's faith does not remove the faith itself.
why bring up macroevolution? we are talking about YOUR beliefs. even if macroevolution were 100% proven to be utterly false, that would not mean your beliefs are correct.

indeed, i agree with you that macroevolution should not be blindly accepted, since there is not sufficient compiled evidence to except that theory as Truth at the moment. yet there is many, many times more empirical support for macroevolutionary theory than there is for the existence of a demigod named Jesus who rose from the dead. so on what basis do you argue your points? which sources, apart from the Bible, do you cite?


Oh, and nothing else makes sense.
no offense, but that is easily the most pitiful answer anybody could possibly give on the subject of religion. you are essentially saying that you don't understand more complex explanations, or you simply don't like them, and therefore they cannot be true. the theory of relativity doesn't make a lick of sense to the majority of the people on this planet, but their ignorance doesn't disprove relativity.

One of my favourites:

I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where so many ignorant men are sure -- that is all agnosticism means. -Clarence Darrow

I'll join you. A thread of reason in this troubled forum...

I tend to watch the religious debates for fun. I don't participate-it's not a good idea to make yourself a target.

Anyway, let's see how this all goes. Dakini, might it not be an idea to make a list of the members? Just a thought...

One of my favourites:

I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where so many ignorant men are sure -- that is all agnosticism means. -Clarence Darrow
some of my favorites:

"I have always considered "Pascal's Wager" a questionable bet to place. Any God worth "believing in" would surely prefer an honest agnostic to a calculating hypocrite."
(Alan Dershowitz)

"Well, I tell you, if I have been wrong in my agnosticism, when I die I'll walk up to God in a manly way and say, Sir, I made an honest mistake."
(Henry Louis Mencken / 1880-1956)

Anyway, let's see how this all goes. Dakini, might it not be an idea to make a list of the members? Just a thought...
That thought had never occured to me actually. I'm not sure I'll have time to compile one before I go to work.

but look at where you are starting:

you ASSUME that what ONE book describes must be factually true, and then expect other people to disprove it. you also decide what the "correct" interpretation of that book is, and thereby rule out the objections of people who interpret it "incorrectly."

why bring up macroevolution? we are talking about YOUR beliefs. even if macroevolution were 100% proven to be utterly false, that would not mean your beliefs are correct.

indeed, i agree with you that macroevolution should not be blindly accepted, since there is not sufficient compiled evidence to except that theory as Truth at the moment. yet there is many, many times more empirical support for macroevolutionary theory than there is for the existence of a demigod named Jesus who rose from the dead. so on what basis do you argue your points? which sources, apart from the Bible, do you cite?

no offense, but that is easily the most pitiful answer anybody could possibly give on the subject of religion. you are essentially saying that you don't understand more complex explanations, or you simply don't like them, and therefore they cannot be true. the theory of relativity doesn't make a lick of sense to the majority of the people on this planet, but their ignorance doesn't disprove relativity.
I start with a certain set of presuppositions. My set of presuppositions happens to include the Bible being infallible. I do challenge myself on occasion, I did not intend to imply that I only wait for others to bring up inconsistencies. However, whenever I encounter a different set of beliefs contradictory to my own, of which evolution serves as an example, I must study it and find which is correct, if either of them is indeed correct. To find the 'correct interpretation' of the Bible, I must be careful not to impute my own meaning to it (eisegesis) and to discover the author's intended meaning (exegesis). Jesus isn't a demigod, by the way.
With regards to my final statement about nothing else making sense, the intent was that no other viewpoints that I have come across hold water after I study them in-depth. It is not a lack of understanding as much as it is an understanding of their fallacies.

I feel I should have run with my idea I had a while ago of the 'Bottle ownage count'. Every time Bottle nails some idiot with her vastly superior* intelect, the count goes up one. Bottle's prob too modest for that though.











*not always superior on certain subjects. Like rugby.

I feel I should have run with my idea I had a while ago of the 'Bottle ownage count'. Every time Bottle nails some idiot with her vastly superior* intelect, the count goes up one. Bottle's prob too modest for that though.

*not always superior on certain subjects. Like rugby.
I do apologize if I am coming across arrogantly.

I do apologize if I am coming across arrogantly.
IMO, if your pre-set assumptions include everything in the bible is true, then you've already lost. I'm sure you feel otherwise, but thats where I stand.

That's a good idea, monkeyking.

IMO, if your pre-set assumptions include everything in the bible is true, then you've already lost. I'm sure you feel otherwise, but thats where I stand.
That is the entire point. Our views are contradictory, so both of us cannot be right, and thus we should compare them until we find which one is correct, if either of them is.
This is a very interesting discussion, but being the holier-than-thou ;) Christian that I am, I must go to church. Have a nice day!

Ah the home for me.

I start with a certain set of presuppositions. My set of presuppositions happens to include the Bible being infallible.

you are free to start with certain presuppositions, so long as you recognize that it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to put your faith to any meaningful test if you maintain presuppositions of that sort.

I do challenge myself on occasion, I did not intend to imply that I only wait for others to bring up inconsistencies. However, whenever I encounter a different set of beliefs contradictory to my own, of which evolution serves as an example, I must study it and find which is correct, if either of them is indeed correct.

but you have already concluded the Bible is correct and infallible, so why should you have to study anything? the Bible says macroevolution is not the case...what's to study?


To find the 'correct interpretation' of the Bible, I must be careful not to impute my own meaning to it (eisegesis) and to discover the author's intended meaning (exegesis).

which you naturally do by reading the Bible in its original language, and with all the necessary accompanying historical texts, right?


Jesus isn't a demigod, by the way.

a demigod is, according to my dictionary, a male being, often the offspring of a god and a mortal, who has some but not all of the powers of a god. he also may be a person who is highly honored or revered, a diefied man. if that ain't Jesus, you had better have a good long talk with every major Christian denomination.


With regards to my final statement about nothing else making sense, the intent was that no other viewpoints that I have come across hold water after I study them in-depth. It is not a lack of understanding as much as it is an understanding of their fallacies.
but you DON'T study them in depth. you assume the Bible is infalible, and then conclude that any views that contradict your initial assumption must "not hold water." even if those views have significantly more supporting evidence or logical consistency, your initial assumption of the Bible's accuracy makes it impossible for you to accept them.

like all of us, you are free to believe what you want, but please don't kid yourself; you aren't actually examining alternative theories, and you certainly aren't testing your faith in any meaningful way. that's your choice. just don't lie to yourself (or others) by claiming you test your beliefs...you don't. you hold your beliefs, and you accept or ignore new information based solely on how well it conforms to the conclusions you have already decided to hang on to.

I feel I should have run with my idea I had a while ago of the 'Bottle ownage count'. Every time Bottle nails some idiot with her vastly superior* intelect, the count goes up one. Bottle's prob too modest for that though.

lol, modest? are you kidding?

remember the teachings of the Book of Bottles; each star in the sky is a physical embodiment of a brilliant idea that Bottle has presented, and each star shines with the genius that gave it birth. thunder is the sound of the heavens rejoicing in the superb intelligence of Bottle. for each pearl of wisdom that Bottle chooses to impart to you, you shall sacrifice one goat, hog, or sheep on the alter of Bottle's Great Glory.


*not always superior on certain subjects. Like rugby.Bottle is far too amazing and brilliant to be concerned about the ass-whupping that Bottle would most likely endure if Bottle ever participated in a rugby match. besides, Bottle's honour is defended not on the rugby field, but on the foosball table...all challengers shall be cast down in defeat and disgrace before the awesome might of Bottle's superior foosing!

I'm an agnostic, all right. henever I sit down to lunch with my buds, there is always a fight about religion. My one friend, whose a devout protestant, begins to ask my other friend, who is an atheist, and then they start the fight. I then moderate, if you will. However, my Protestant friend once asked me "Why haven't you chosen a Religion yet?" and I responded "Because I want to explore all my options". He then said "But you know the basics of most religions, why don't you just choose one!" and then I replied "Because I don't know enough!" and then he said "Then why don't you choose the one that has been proven to be right" and I replied "There isn't any that has been proven to be right". Then we switched topic to something about World of Warcraft and spent the rest of the time talking about which is the best game ^^

Ed The Purple Unicorn is not a physical being. One can think of Ed The Purple Unicorn as the unknowable essence. He is beyond our true, complete understanding. If Ed The Purple Unicorn were to appear in His full splendor no human could deny His reality. Just as being too close to the sun would burn us up.

i do this not to be insulting, but to show you how pointless and ludicrous your statements are. unless you can supply a single reason why we should believe in your God rather than Ed The Purple Unicorn, you are wasting your time.

Would you give your live for Ed the Purple Unicorn? Thousands of Baha'is have given their lives for Baha'u'llah when all they had to do was deny their faith. They chose, of their own free will not to deny. One young girl of 16 stepped over the bodies of several of her co-religionist, kissed the rope and placed it around her neck rather than deny her faith. BTW there is only one God. All people who believe in God believe in the same God. The proof is there if you want to take the time and investigate. Read what Baha'u'llah has said. You make think that my statements are pointless and ludicrous. I do not. It is my time to waste and waste it I will. What you do with your time is your business.

my Protestant friend once asked me "Why haven't you chosen a Religion yet?"

they make it sound like you're picking out a hat or a car or something. as though it's perfectly valid to pick whatever suits your fancy, with no consideration for reality. i would respond to them, "Why haven't you chosen which kind of magical fairies you are going to keep as pets?"


He then said "But you know the basics of most religions, why don't you just choose one!"

gee, i guess they aren't very interested in putting serious thought into their life-philosophy, are they? i guess you just need to flip a coin, right?

for me, issues of philosophy or "spirituality" are places where the journey is more important than the final destination. i will spend my life trying to decide how i view the world, how i view my place in it, and how i will construct my ethics and values from my perspectives...to simply skip ahead and plug some random answers into these questions would be dishonest, dishonorable, and morally worthless. to allow other people to give me easy answers to these questions would render my life meaningless and worthless, both to me and to the rest of the world. it horrifies me that so many people consider it the height of morality to do exactly that; to allow themselves to settle for quick, pat answers, and to avoid any serious scrutiny of themselves or their universe.


and then he said "Then why don't you choose the one that has been proven to be right"

so funny it hurts. anybody who believes God can be proven or disproven is living in a dream world. certain particular concepts of God can be disproven through empirical or logical methods, but the certainty of existence of a great big Something can never be established by a human being. anybody who says otherwise is selling something.


Then we switched topic to something about World of Warcraft and spent the rest of the time talking about which is the best game ^^
an equally subjective, but probably more productive, line of discussion :).

Would you give your live for Ed the Purple Unicorn? Thousands of Baha'is have given their lives for Baha'u'llah when all they had to do was deny their faith. They chose, of their own free will not to deny. One young girl of 16 stepped over the bodies of several of her co-religionist, kissed the rope and placed it around her neck rather than deny her faith.

a bunch of people put on white sneakers and killed themselves so they could hitch a ride on a comet. i've encountered a fellow who cut off his leg below the knee because he was completely convinced that it was the will of his pet cat (who was actually an Egyptian goddess, according to him). an idea doesn't become more true just because lots of people believe in it, and it certainly doesn't become more true based on the number of people willing to do stupid things because they believe it.

BTW there is only one God. All people who believe in God believe in the same God. The proof is there if you want to take the time and investigate.

if the proof is there, present it. i have spent a significant portion of my life investigating the divine, and so far you aren't giving me any new information...you're just yammering the same old theistic material and expecting me to take your word for it. theists love to tell non-theists that "the proof is there" and that "you just have to open your mind" or "you just have to find it." it's almost embarassing to watch them at it, since anybody with the brains to put on their own pants will laugh those pants right off at such transparent tactics.


Read what Baha'u'llah has said.

i have, and i wasn't particularly impressed. better than some superstitious material, worse than some. nothing terribly original.


You make think that my statements are pointless and ludicrous. I do not.

that's nice.


It is my time to waste and waste it I will.

yes, aparently you will. if you would like to do something with your time besides wasting it, you might consider actually participating in discussion like an adult instead of stating your opinions as gospel. that way people might see you as something more than a self-righteous crackpot.


What you do with your time is your business.
thanks for letting me know...i would be so lost without you...

Well, if you're talking in the entire universe, then it's quite possible.

On this planet, while there is no fossil evidence for such unicorns, a large number of organisms do not get fossilized, thus it is possible for something to die and leave no trace, especially with animals in nature being how they are and scatterning corpses left to the elements...

There are however historical accounts of human eyewitnesses to the Unicorn. Does that evidence lead you to believe it is more or less likely there are Unicorns?

If you don't mind, while you're answering that, do you believe there was a man who ruled France in the 17th Century named Louis XIV ?

As well, if you don't mind, what values on the certainty scale of "impossible, unlikely, likely, definitely" would you say those two historical facts fall?

So do agnostics actually exist? I can't seem to prove it, myself.

So do agnostics actually exist? I can't seem to prove it, myself.
Roffle - I remember I once wrote a piece of satire in which Bush labeled agnostics (like me) as 'flip-floppers' who should make up their minds about God :D

Roffle - I remember I once wrote a piece of satire in which Bush labeled agnostics (like me) as 'flip-floppers' who should make up their minds about God :D

Awesome! You've heard seen that one video on JibJab where Bush and Kerry sing, right? That was hilarious in a similar way. :D

:confused: So do agnostics actually exist? I can't seem to prove it, myself.

To quote another:I think therefore I think I am? BTW God told me He didn't exist but I'm not sure if it was Him/Her.

:confused:

To quote another:I think therefore I think I am? BTW God told me He didn't exist but I'm not sure if it was Him/Her.

"I think therefore I think I am"? As I recall it was "I think therefore I am" or "cogito ergo sum".

a bunch of people put on white sneakers and killed themselves so they could hitch a ride on a comet. i've encountered a fellow who cut off his leg below the knee because he was completely convinced that it was the will of his pet cat (who was actually an Egyptian goddess, according to him). an idea doesn't become more true just because lots of people believe in it, and it certainly doesn't become more true based on the number of people willing to do stupid things because they believe it.

if the proof is there, present it. i have spent a significant portion of my life investigating the divine, and so far you aren't giving me any new information...you're just yammering the same old theistic material and expecting me to take your word for it. theists love to tell non-theists that "the proof is there" and that "you just have to open your mind" or "you just have to find it." it's almost embarassing to watch them at it, since anybody with the brains to put on their own pants will laugh those pants right off at such transparent tactics.


i have, and i wasn't particularly impressed. better than some superstitious material, worse than some. nothing terribly original.


that's nice.


yes, aparently you will. if you would like to do something with your time besides wasting it, you might consider actually participating in discussion like an adult instead of stating your opinions as gospel. that way people might see you as something more than a self-righteous crackpot.


thanks for letting me know...i would be so lost without you...

If by adult discussion you mean name calling then no doubt you got me there. I don't believe that anyone could read my posts on any subject here and find one example of name calling. Anyway religion is not meant to be the cause of discord, according to Baha'u'llah. So this is my last post in reply to you on this topic.

It seems like Bottle's hit a nerve with Goodthoughts. Although I do agree with Bottle I think it's important that you write in such a way that makes you come off as not pretentious ... unless that's the way that you want to come off and then in that case I'm all for it (cos I for one think it's hilarious).

It seems like Bottle's hit a nerve with Goodthoughts. Although I do agree with Bottle I think it's important that you write in such a way that makes you come off as not pretentious ... unless that's the way that you want to come off and then in that case I'm all for it (cos I for one think it's hilarious).

How does one know what another person finds pretentious?

How does one know what another person finds pretentious?

Oooo. I've never thought about it that way before actually. Thanks for opening my eyes.

How does one know what another person finds pretentious?
Make sure not to use any words longer than 5 letters. If it's longer than that, it must mean something too complex to bother with.

Agnosticism w00t: 2x the people to make fun of. :p
Heh, exactly. :D

Would you give your live for Ed the Purple Unicorn? Thousands of Baha'is have given their lives for Baha'u'llah when all they had to do was deny their faith. They chose, of their own free will not to deny. One young girl of 16 stepped over the bodies of several of her co-religionist, kissed the rope and placed it around her neck rather than deny her faith. BTW there is only one God. All people who believe in God believe in the same God. The proof is there if you want to take the time and investigate. Read what Baha'u'llah has said. You make think that my statements are pointless and ludicrous. I do not. It is my time to waste and waste it I will. What you do with your time is your business.
Your point? If any two-bit group of assholes started rounding up agnostics I wouldn't go out by hanging, instead I'd take a few with me and damn the consequences.

Some religions believe in a life after death. Less extreme denominations tend to view it as the other way round…

So here we are, neither believing nor disbelieving. We are usually depicted as beign in between two states of affairs. The theists who yell at people for not believing group us in with the atheists and the atheists who yell at people for believing often look down on us too.

I once had a christian and an atheist yell at me to "Pick a side" it was really stupid.

Anyways. Sometimes it's tough when you admit that you don't know in a world where everyone is so certian of everything whether they can prove it or not. So hey, let's just get together here and you know, not be insulted... :)

I've only been here for 10 minutes, but I'm loving this site.

Would you give your live for Ed the Purple Unicorn? Thousands of Baha'is have given their lives for Baha'u'llah when all they had to do was deny their faith. They chose, of their own free will not to deny. One young girl of 16 stepped over the bodies of several of her co-religionist, kissed the rope and placed it around her neck rather than deny her faith. BTW there is only one God. All people who believe in God believe in the same God. The proof is there if you want to take the time and investigate. Read what Baha'u'llah has said. You make think that my statements are pointless and ludicrous. I do not. It is my time to waste and waste it I will. What you do with your time is your business.
Again. Pleas stop preaching in the agnostic thread!

If I wanted to be preached at, I would make a new screen name at www.christianity.com and hop right into the middle of one of their forums and announce that i'm not a baptist.

I don't, so I made a thread for all agnostics to gather and discuss issues relevant to agnosticism. I quite frankly, don't care about the bahai faith. I met someone who belonged to it and apparantly, you can't drink. Not even socially. So nuts to that right off the bat.

That thought had never occured to me actually. I'm not sure I'll have time to compile one before I go to work.

I’ll compile it, if you like.

I’ll compile it, if you like.
Be my guest... though I've returned from work, just extremely exhausted... damn 8.5 hour shifts.

I consider myself both an agnostic and an athiest. I don't believe that "God" exists, but I don't think that the existence of said "god" can be proven or disproven.

Here we go:

……..

Dakini (Thread creator.)
New Genoa
Vaelon
Anikian
Down System
Pantylvania
Stroudiztan
JRV
Ravenclaws
Asylum Nova
Cuddly bunny
Equlitus
Windly Queef
Glitziness
Troon
New British Colony
The Lightning Star
Super-power
Picklegnome
Neo-Anarchists
THE LOST PLANET
Damnation and Hellfire

(Note: There may be one or two names I missed out because I wasn’t sure whether they were just commenting on the thread/preaching/arguing or actually saying that they are agnostic.)

(Note: There may be one or two names I missed out because I wasn’t sure whether they were just commenting on the thread/preaching/arguing or actually saying that they are agnostic.)
Yeah, like me.

Again. Pleas stop preaching in the agnostic thread!

If I wanted to be preached at, I would make a new screen name at www.christianity.com and hop right into the middle of one of their forums and announce that i'm not a baptist.

I don't, so I made a thread for all agnostics to gather and discuss issues relevant to agnosticism. I quite frankly, don't care about the bahai faith. I met someone who belonged to it and apparantly, you can't drink. Not even socially. So nuts to that right off the bat.

Just to set the record straight people were posting about religion on this thread before I made any posts. You in fact told someone the following,

"Christianity isn't the only thing out there. Explore a little. Most religions advocate love, compassion and a lack of judging in some form or another... "

The preaching you refer to was a reply to someone, and I believe it was the same person who started to throw insults and called it adult discussion. It seemed rather childish to me, but the individual has a right to their opinion.

Yes, it is true that Baha'is don't use alcohol even socially. Alcoholism is still the biggest drug problem the world has bar none. If you choose to drink that is your right.

If religion isn't relevant to agnosticism then just what is it you are agnostic about?

lol, modest? are you kidding?

remember the teachings of the Book of Bottles; each star in the sky is a physical embodiment of a brilliant idea that Bottle has presented, and each star shines with the genius that gave it birth. thunder is the sound of the heavens rejoicing in the superb intelligence of Bottle. for each pearl of wisdom that Bottle chooses to impart to you, you shall sacrifice one goat, hog, or sheep on the alter of Bottle's Great Glory.

Bottle is far too amazing and brilliant to be concerned about the ass-whupping that Bottle would most likely endure if Bottle ever participated in a rugby match. besides, Bottle's honour is defended not on the rugby field, but on the foosball table...all challengers shall be cast down in defeat and disgrace before the awesome might of Bottle's superior foosing!

Hail.

If I wanted to be preached at, I would make a new screen name at www.christianity.com and hop right into the middle of one of their forums and announce that i'm not a baptist.

Actually, that sounds almost fun...

Just to set the record straight people were posting about religion on this thread before I made any posts. You in fact told someone the following,

"Christianity isn't the only thing out there. Explore a little. Most religions advocate love, compassion and a lack of judging in some form or another... "

The preaching you refer to was a reply to someone, and I believe it was the same person who started to throw insults and called it adult discussion. It seemed rather childish to me, but the individual has a right to their opinion.

Yes, it is true that Baha'is don't use alcohol even socially. Alcoholism is still the biggest drug problem the world has bar none. If you choose to drink that is your right.

If religion isn't relevant to agnosticism then just what is it you are agnostic about?

You obviously don’t get it. This thread is for agnostics to discuss agnosticism. Just like somebody might create a separate thread for Ba-whatever it is-worshippers to discuss their beliefs, and I am sure that you wouldn’t appreciate us coming along and preaching if that was the case.

EDIT: So please, leave us to rant amongst ourselves.

Neo-Anarchist: I added you.

Agnosticism is not sitting on the fence between Atheism and Religion, it's not a failure to pick a side.


It's saying you don't want to join any of the teams already formed.

Add me to the list, I hold agnostic beliefs.

Specifically I don't believe any religion is the true religion. I also don't agree with most professed concepts of "God". I believe that there is some unifying force, plan or higher power, but I think any person is an arrogant fool if they believe that they or their religion know or understand it. I doubt mankind has evolved sufficently to have the capacity to know or understand such things.

So instead of wasting my life whorshipping the uncertain, I spend it trying to learn, improve and evolve myself and our little corner of the cosmos in the hope that such efforts will unfold the unknown to us someday.

Here we go:

……..

Dakini (Thread creator.)
New Genoa
Vaelon
Anikian
Down System
Pantylvania
Stroudiztan
JRV
Ravenclaws
Asylum Nova
Cuddly bunny
Equlitus
Windly Queef
Glitziness
Troon
New British Colony
The Lightening Star
Super-power
Picklegnome
Neo-Anarchists

(Note: There may be one or two names I missed out because I wasn’t sure whether they were just commenting on the thread/preaching/arguing or actually saying that they are agnostic.)

Dammit, spell my name right!

Agnosticism is not sitting on the fence between Atheism and Religion, it's not a failure to pick a side.


It's saying you don't want to join any of the teams already formed.

Add me to the list, I hold agnostic beliefs.

Specifically I don't believe any religion is the true religion. I also don't agree with most professed concepts of "God". I believe that there is some unifying force, plan or higher power, but I think any person is an arrogant fool if they believe that they or their religion know or understand it. I doubt mankind has evolved sufficently to have the capacity to know or understand such things.

So instead of wasting my life whorshipping the uncertain, I spend it trying to learn, improve and evolve myself and our little corner of the cosmos in the hope that such efforts will unfold the unknown to us someday.

Added you.

As for the definition of agnosticism I tend to agree. However I think the word and its meaning meaning have perhaps evolved overtime, in the way it is used anyway.

Lightning: Fixed :D

Don't forget to add me!

Lightning: Fixed :D

;)

Good.

Add me to the list as well

Done.

Looks like I'm in fine company.

I've got a question, how many of you guys have done some kind of study of religion at university?

Looks like I'm in fine company.

I've got a question, how many of you guys have done some kind of study of religion at university?

Well I’m only 16, so not me, though I plan to. Just read and think a lot about it right now.

Well I’m only 16, so not me, though I plan to. Just read and think a lot about it right now.
Vic Uni in Wellington has some darn good courses and the lecturers are great people to sit down and debate with.

Actually, that sounds almost fun...
The mods there are insane, but go ahead.

I got banned twice within a week.

Once was for askign why masturbation was a sin and once was suggesting that this god must be an excellent camp consellor if it can keep everyone entertained for eternity.

They also deleted a number of posts when I tried to correct people on things such as buddhism (someone claimed that buddhists practised idol worship by posting a pic of many monks in meditation, I corrected them, the mods claimed I was preaching buddhism) also, if you try to link from the website www.religioustolerance.org, they will inform you that they do not approve of this website and take down your link. They're nazis, I say.

The mods there are insane, but go ahead.

I got banned twice within a week.

Once was for askign why masturbation was a sin and once was suggesting that this god must be an excellent camp consellor if it can keep everyone entertained for eternity.

They also deleted a number of posts when I tried to correct people on things such as buddhism (someone claimed that buddhists practised idol worship by posting a pic of many monks in meditation, I corrected them, the mods claimed I was preaching buddhism) also, if you try to link from the website www.religioustolerance.org, they will inform you that they do not approve of this website and take down your link. They're nazis, I say.

lmfao! Gee. I must visit...

Looks like I'm in fine company.

I've got a question, how many of you guys have done some kind of study of religion at university?

I'm not old enough to attend university, although I have studied alot of Religions.

Heres my basic "Path towards Agnosticism", as it were.

I was born into a Catholic Family on December 18, 1991. Now, my Father wasn't the most Catholic Person on the Planet, but he was pretty catholic. My Mother was as well, so I get baptized before y'know it. Then, after living alot of my life in this little Catholic world of ours, I am introduced to a whole new religion when I move to Pakistan in 2000.. Now, I had lived in Muslim countries before(Bangladesh. Oh, and my father works for the State Department, so I travel and see alot), but that was too long ago to remember. Here, I saw that the world wasn't as black and white as the Catholic Church made it seem. I was also introduced to a really big library(I went to the International School of Panama, which was arguably the best International School in South Asia at the time), so I read about alot of things. I had a buddy who was agnostic, and he told me what it was like. "Agnoticism is when you believe there is a god, it's just you don't know what religion to follow or you don't believe in any of the religions that are already there." I went to his house alot, to play computer games, play soldier, etc, but that wasn't the only religious influence I got in Pakistan.

One of my best friends was a kid named Alex Loller(or Lollar, I can't remember :(). He was Jewish, so that added another religion to my list. Now, I had always knew that Judaism existed, but I had never really seen it. Now, Alex wasn't the most devout Jew, but his family followed some basic principles, so I learned more about that. Alex was a bit of a creative person(he had this GIGANTIC lego collection, and instead of just building random things, he created a universe. There were villages, castles, wars, demons, the world was destroyed by a god at least three times), so I learned alot from him too.

That lead me to when I decided to be agnostic. It was sometime in 2002 that I decided "Hey, I don't think the Catholic Church is right for me!", and went out on a wave of searching through religions. I still search for this day, and while this may make me less of a hard-core agnostic, I really don't care.

(Yes, I am aware that this post is a jumble of ideas and thoughts, and is almost un-readable. But cut me some slack, it's 12:11 A.M. here!)

Vic Uni in Wellington has some darn good courses and the lecturers are great people to sit down and debate with.

Cool. I’m considering Victoria.

Just to set the record straight people were posting about religion on this thread before I made any posts. You in fact told someone the following,

"Christianity isn't the only thing out there. Explore a little. Most religions advocate love, compassion and a lack of judging in some form or another... "

Yes, this person was saying that they did not agree with religon because they didn't agree with christianity. I pointed out that there are many religions and it never hurts to look into other ways of thinking even if you're not seriously considering practising them, if only to broaden your own mind and experience of the world.

The preaching you refer to was a reply to someone, and I believe it was the same person who started to throw insults and called it adult discussion. It seemed rather childish to me, but the individual has a right to their opinion.
It's not so much the content, but the presentation I object to. Rather than "i believe... " you presented a series of statments saying that "This is how things are" When you do that, it appears preachy.

If religion isn't relevant to agnosticism then just what is it you are agnostic about?
The existence or non-existance of god, life after death, et c. Agnosticism is an admission that one does not have enough knowledge to form an opinion on such things. While there are different takes on this, ranging from a possible sway to either side to a fixed view that it can never be known in this lifetime...
Just because religion incorporates god and the afterlife doesn't mean that everything that involves a god or an afterlife is a religion. Often it gets written as philosophy.

So here we are, neither believing nor disbelieving. We are usually depicted as beign in between two states of affairs. The theists who yell at people for not believing group us in with the atheists and the atheists who yell at people for believing often look down on us too.

I once had a christian and an atheist yell at me to "Pick a side" it was really stupid.

I personally think you should believe or not believe or be unsure all you like. This is what is known as freedom. Some have clouded the meaning of freedom so badly they forget this. Sure I'll make my arguments, but at the end of the day I respect every ones' right to decide for themselves. You are not good nor bad if you believe, don't believe or are indifferent.

Any one screaming at you to believe what they do, is a fraud to any thing they claim to believe. ;)

More power to you agnostics!

I'm personally Catholic, so it would be bad of me to join ya'll. But becuase I'm Catholic I accept ya'll for who you are. And if my faith is the right one... look at it this way.. we believe that not all disbelievers go to hell... some of them go to purgatory and are cleansthed before going to heaven. Always a chance at eternal happiness with us. And if my faith is the wrong one, good luck, because well be in the same boat.

Anyways. Sometimes it's tough when you admit that you don't know in a world where everyone is so certian of everything whether they can prove it or not. So hey, let's just get together here and you know, not be insulted... :)
The thing is, neither the theists nor the atheists are certain of anything, spiritually speaking. What sets them both apart from the Agnostics is their ability to engage in Denial with regard to their own fallible understanding of such transcendent concepts as God, afterlife, and so on. I have chosen a side -- the side of the honest folk who admit they don't know what the other two sides only pretend to know.

On the other hand, there are said to be varying "strengths" of Agnosticism, ranging from strong agnostics that unerringly stick to the "I don't know" philosophy, to weak agnostics who lean heavily toward either theism or atheism but hold out at least a minute chance that the other side might be right. Those theists who claim to believe in God as a comfort, but are able to admit that they don't know for certain that S/He/It is really out there, I would call weak agnostics.

Yes, this person was saying that they did not agree with religon because they didn't agree with christianity. I pointed out that there are many religions and it never hurts to look into other ways of thinking even if you're not seriously considering practising them, if only to broaden your own mind and experience of the world.


It's not so much the content, but the presentation I object to. Rather than "i believe... " you presented a series of statments saying that "This is how things are" When you do that, it appears preachy.


The existence or non-existance of god, life after death, et c. Agnosticism is an admission that one does not have enough knowledge to form an opinion on such things. While there are different takes on this, ranging from a possible sway to either side to a fixed view that it can never be known in this lifetime...
Just because religion incorporates god and the afterlife doesn't mean that everything that involves a god or an afterlife is a religion. Often it gets written as philosophy.

You know I went back and read almost every post from last night and I can't find any examples of anyone starting their posts with, "I believe his..." I was not trying to Preach and I feel that my statements were no more Preachy than many others of agnostics, atheists and other religious believers. My posts were in response to people with questions.

I had a rather long discussion with two individuals that was respectful and at times humorous. We ended with a cordial good night to each other and one person even suggested that we continue the discussion tonight.

I have never told anyone what they should believe. I am willing to share my beliefs with others, in what I hope is a respectful manner. Their reaction to my beliefs is sometimes wildly unpredictable. If my statements last night were considered by anyone as disrespectful for that I apologize. I was recently called a Deceiver by Jesussaves, which I consider to be a great honor.

If their weren't different opinions in this world it would be a very boring place, don't you think? I really doubt if people would keep coming here and posting if they found everyone saying all the time, "Yep, that's exactly what I believe." So lets relax, and agree to disagree.

The existence or non-existance of god, life after death, et c. Agnosticism is an admission that one does not have enough knowledge to form an opinion on such things.

This is indeed the heart of the agnosticism stance. Well stated. I think, though that with some pointed reflection, the premise that you do not have enough information to form an opinion on the existence of the supernatural is within your grasp.

Dakini, I was rather disappointed you ignored my prior questions. Was it due to oversight, or was it intentional ?

If their weren't different opinions in this world it would be a very boring place, don't you think? I really doubt if people would keep coming here and posting if they found everyone saying all the time, "Yep, that's exactly what I believe." So lets relax, and agree to disagree.

*relaxes* I agree.

Also on a completely unrelated note, there's also the variety of agnosticism that doesn't even consider the question of god's existance or non-existance relevant. One prime example is "The Universal Church Triumphant of Apathetic Agnosticism" an organization that i'm sort of unsure about. I don't know if they're serious or not. Kind of funny, either way.

http://www.apatheticagnostic.com

An example of the style of reasoning found:

The aim of this essay is to demonstrate that Apathetic Agnosticism is the only rational position to hold with regard to the question of whether or not there is a God or gods. My reason for writing it, given that as an Apathetic Agnostic I couldn't care less about the answer to this question, is that I am a vain fellow and have nothing better to do today.

You know I went back and read almost every post from last night and I can't find any examples of anyone starting their posts with, "I believe his..." I was not trying to Preach and I feel that my statements were no more Preachy than many others of agnostics, atheists and other religious believers. My posts were in response to people with questions.

I had a rather long discussion with two individuals that was respectful and at times humorous. We ended with a cordial good night to each other and one person even suggested that we continue the discussion tonight.

I have never told anyone what they should believe. I am willing to share my beliefs with others, in what I hope is a respectful manner. Their reaction to my beliefs is sometimes wildly unpredictable. If my statements last night were considered by anyone as disrespectful for that I apologize. I was recently called a Deceiver by Jesussaves, which I consider to be a great honor.

If their weren't different opinions in this world it would be a very boring place, don't you think? I really doubt if people would keep coming here and posting if they found everyone saying all the time, "Yep, that's exactly what I believe." So lets relax, and agree to disagree.

http://www.cotbn.com/Dr.%20Evil.jpg
www.shhh.com ... get out of our fricken thread.

*relaxes* I agree.

Also on a completely unrelated note, there's also the variety of agnosticism that doesn't even consider the question of god's existance or non-existance relevant. One prime example is "The Universal Church Triumphant of Apathetic Agnosticism" an organization that i'm sort of unsure about. I don't know if they're serious or not. Kind of funny, either way.

http://www.apatheticagnostic.com

An example of the style of reasoning found:

Interesting. It's funny because that is what brought me to humanism/agnosticism in the first place, not believing that the existence of god is relevent...

I had an interesting conversation with one of my Christian friends tonight. He told me that agnosticism is stupid and quote, 'unfair'. I asked him exactly what he meant by 'unfair', he replied that it is unfair because nobody can prove whether or not God exists or not and that you just have to have faith...

Heh.

I had an interesting conversation with one of my Christian friends tonight. He told me that agnosticism is stupid and quote, 'unfair'. I asked him exactly what he meant by 'unfair', he replied that it is unfair because nobody can prove whether or not God exists or not and that you just have to have faith...

Heh.

Yeah! You should play by the rules! :rolleyes:

So here we are, neither believing nor disbelieving. We are usually depicted as beign in between two states of affairs. The theists who yell at people for not believing group us in with the atheists and the atheists who yell at people for believing often look down on us too.

I once had a christian and an atheist yell at me to "Pick a side" it was really stupid.

Anyways. Sometimes it's tough when you admit that you don't know in a world where everyone is so certian of everything whether they can prove it or not. So hey, let's just get together here and you know, not be insulted... :)

Agreement never felt that good.

Balance and Neutrality are forgotten virtues. I don't see how 'picking a side' would benefit anyone. So I'll keep sitting on that lovely fence; it's comfortable. :)

Agnostic because there is no proof for or against any faith. I am however closer to being atheist due to my irrational dislike of organized religion.

That's kind of my stance too.

4th to 7th? 8th to 9th? Ga?

Ah okay, grade. It would also be eerily appropriate if he were talking about levels in Dante's hell.

I'm sorry, but no one knows what occurs after death. You don't know any better than anyone here.

Stop trying to convert people. It's one thing to talk about your religion, it's another to advertise...

I believe he referred to what happened on *Earth* after your death, not any supernatural stuff. And this is the one thing he's right on: A new community has but a tiny chance to survive its founder.

Have you ever heard of Volapük (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volap%FCk_language)?

So here we are, neither believing nor disbelieving. We are usually depicted as beign in between two states of affairs. The theists who yell at people for not believing group us in with the atheists and the atheists who yell at people for believing often look down on us too.

I once had a christian and an atheist yell at me to "Pick a side" it was really stupid.

Anyways. Sometimes it's tough when you admit that you don't know in a world where everyone is so certian of everything whether they can prove it or not. So hey, let's just get together here and you know, not be insulted... :)

They're right. Don't be wishy washy.

If I wanted to be preached at, I would make a new screen name at www.christianity.com and hop right into the middle of one of their forums and announce that i'm not a baptist.

I have only one head, and like it too much to stick it in a blender.


A favorite quote of mine relating to Agnosticism:

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear". --Thomas Jefferson

I posted that quote twice today, lol.

Thomas Jefferson ROCKS! As does Thomas Paine! :D

"I think therefore I think I am"? As I recall it was "I think therefore I am" or "cogito ergo sum".

I think I think, therefore I think I am...

They're right. Don't be wishy washy.
... That was a joke, right? Right? Or have you missed the multitude of arguments against this?

... That was a joke, right? Right? Or have you missed the multitude of arguments against this?
Just ignore Castle Creek, most of his/her past posts seemed to be to annoy people.

... That was a joke, right? Right? Or have you missed the multitude of arguments against this?
As an agnostic I cannot honestly say if that "joke" existed or not :D