NationStates Jolt Archive

I was reading about fat admirers who are apparently men who prefer fat women. As odd as that sounds, I read on more and apparently, they say that the whole "thin is healthy" thing is some kind of politically motivated anti-feminist thing and that there is no real evidence that being overweight is unhealthy. I really don't know what to think. That is not just pseudoscience in the same vein as creationism is regarded by proponents of the theory of evolution, it is downright dangerous. What do you think of the issue?

one classic statement
"beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

This coming from the guy who likes big butts?

Anyway, no matter what the issue is, there is always some batshit insane opinion that people try to get out to the masses. This just happens to be another one of them.

And hell, if it were true, I'd proudly call myself an anti-feminist as I grab a loudspeaker and shout at all the fat people eating at McDonalds.

Depends what you mean by over-weight.

It really is quite a vague term.

This coming from the guy who likes big butts?

Yeah, I know, but I certainly don't pretend that it is healthy. It gives me a lot of guilt. Actually, though, some FAs prefer some very high weight levels that make me look normal in comparison.

Depends what you mean by over-weight.

It really is quite a vague term.
over-weight
adj.

Weighing more than is normal, necessary, or allowed, especially having more body weight than is considered normal or healthy for one's age or build.

over-weight
adj.

Weighing more than is normal, necessary, or allowed, especially having more body weight than is considered normal or healthy for one's age or build.

Well since healthy is largely moot and normal depends on the community....

Well since healthy is largely moot and normal depends on the community....

How is health moot?

PS. What is the point of the large Cyrillic zh in your sig?

How is health moot?

Different experts say different things: ergo moot.

I do have to admit, wrong, say there is no guilt involved here, that I do not like skinny women. Give me something to hold onto, don't give me the impression that you will snap into little pieces at the slightest breeze.

How is health moot?
By that I didn't mean morbid obesity may/may not be healthy.

I meant the point that being over-weight starts becoming unhealthy.

And moot was the wrong word.

By that I didn't mean morbid obesity may/may not be healthy.

I meant the point that being over-weight starts becoming unhealthy.

And moot was the wrong word.

I was under the impression that being overweight was defined as being at a weight that is unhealthy.

I was reading about fat admirers who are apparently men who prefer fat women. As odd as that sounds, I read on more and apparently, they say that the whole "thin is healthy" thing is some kind of politically motivated anti-feminist thing and that there is no real evidence that being overweight is unhealthy. I really don't know what to think. That is not just pseudoscience in the same vein as creationism is regarded by proponents of the theory of evolution, it is downright dangerous. What do you think of the issue?
the medically determined "ideal weight" for any given individual may not necessarily match up with a model-skinny appearance. however, i can personally assure you that medically determined ideal weights ARE scientifically valid, if measured accurately; they account for more than the raw weight of a person, by factoring in bone mass, fat-muscle-tissues ratio, gender, age, and many other factors. using BMI or simple pounds/kilos is not a good idea, since one 6'0" person may be at their ideal weight when they weigh 25 pounds more than another 6'0" person.

I was under the impression that being overweight was defined as being at a weight that is unhealthy.

And when does it start being unhealthy.

Please ignore me, trust me. This is the beginning of a circle.

the medically determined "ideal weight" for any given individual may not necessarily match up with a model-skinny appearance. however, i can personally assure you that medically determined ideal weights ARE scientifically valid, if measured accurately; they account for more than the raw weight of a person, by factoring in bone mass, fat-muscle-tissues ratio, gender, age, and many other factors. using BMI or simple pounds/kilos is not a good idea, since one 6'0" person may be at their ideal weight when they weigh 25 pounds more than another 6'0" person.

I was thinking the same thing. So you agree with me that FA claims are bad science?

I was reading about fat admirers who are apparently men who prefer fat women. As odd as that sounds, I read on more and apparently, they say that the whole "thin is healthy" thing is some kind of politically motivated anti-feminist thing and that there is no real evidence that being overweight is unhealthy. I really don't know what to think. That is not just pseudoscience in the same vein as creationism is regarded by proponents of the theory of evolution, it is downright dangerous. What do you think of the issue?
Arguing over what is "normal" with regards to sexuality is a futile debate, if some guy likes fat chicks lucky him, he probably doesn't have much competition to worry about.

As far as what is healthy, too skinny is a million times better than too fat. All the leading causes of death heart disease, cancer, stroke, are all more likely to occur the bigger you are. You are better off the thinner you are within reasonable limits.

Arguing over what is "normal" with regards to sexuality is a futile debate, if some guy likes fat chicks lucky him, he probably doesn't have much competition to worry about.

I wouldn't say that myself. Some sexual orientations are immoral, at least according most ethical codes, pædophilia, for example.

As far as what is healthy, too skinny is a million times better than too fat. All the leading causes of death heart disease, cancer, stroke, are all more likely to occur the bigger you are. You are better off the thinner you are within reasonable limits.

I was thinking the same thing. It seems my suspicion of bad science was right all along.

I was thinking the same thing. So you agree with me that FA claims are bad science?
it depends on which claims you are talking about. it is perfectly good science to report trends; saying that people who have above a certain height-weight ratio are more likely to suffer ill effects related to obesity is accurate and a fair statement. however, to say that ALL individuals who excede a certain BMI are unhealthy is untrue and unsupported by data.

it depends on which claims you are talking about. it is perfectly good science to report trends; saying that people who have above a certain height-weight ratio are more likely to suffer ill effects related to obesity is accurate and a fair statement. however, to say that ALL individuals who excede a certain BMI are unhealthy is untrue and unsupported by data.

Basically, they were saying that the claim that being overweight or obese is unhealthy is politically motivated and not actually supported by science.

Basically, they were saying that the claim that being overweight or obese is unhealthy is politically motivated and not actually supported by science.
current standards for what is considered "obese" or "overweight" can be misleading. however, being MEDICALLY overweight is most definitely a health risk, and has well-proven negative impacts on an individual's body, quality of life, and life expectancy.

current standards for what is considered "obese" or "overweight" can be misleading. however, being MEDICALLY overweight is most definitely a health risk, and has well-proven negative impacts on an individual's body, quality of life, and life expectancy.

Yup, the question is whether it is worth the time and effort to refute FA bad science.

As far as what is healthy, too skinny is a million times better than too fat. All the leading causes of death heart disease, cancer, stroke, are all more likely to occur the bigger you are. You are better off the thinner you are within reasonable limits.

Being obese is bad for you, there is no doubt about that, but being excessively underweight is at least as bad for you. There is a wide ranfge of weight for any given heigth and biotype that, if you stay within it, will not prejudice your health.
What is worrying is that the socially acceptable norm for weight is heading rapidly for the bottom limit of this weight range. Any error on the light side has a serious chances of damaging your long term health. (Metabolic system, renal functions, brain functions etc.) Basically there is not a sufficient reserve of energy to take a person from one meal to the next without starting to burn essential materials. (Note I am talking about weight, not fat, excess muscle weight can and will be used before critical materials)
The ideal would be to return to the standards of the 1950s, but any movement away from Überthin would be good.

I was under the impression that being overweight was defined as being at a weight that is unhealthy.
I was under the impression overweight meant overweight, ie the asinine ratio of height to weight some doctor got payed too much money to make up

Being obese is bad for you, there is no doubt about that, but being excessively underweight is at least as bad for you. There is a wide ranfge of weight for any given heigth and biotype that, if you stay within it, will not prejudice your health.

I'm not arguing that being too thin is healthy, of course.

What is worrying is that the socially acceptable norm for weight is heading rapidly for the bottom limit of this weight range. Any error on the light side has a serious chances of damaging your long term health. (Metabolic system, renal functions, brain functions etc.) Basically there is not a sufficient reserve of energy to take a person from one meal to the next without starting to burn essential materials. (Note I am talking about weight, not fat, excess muscle weight can and will be used before critical materials)
The ideal would be to return to the standards of the 1950s, but any movement away from Überthin would be good.

What was the standard of the 1950s?

... fat women...

How do you define fat? What's sexy?

I bet most guys here'll agree this is acceptable:
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00150/afp_anna_nicole_smi_150685a.jpg

Personally, I'd rather have the cushioning:
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,233771,00.jpg

But there are limits, for health reasons if no other, right?
http://www.borndigital.com/ag/anna.jpg

Seriously, though - the "ideal" woman in the media is not what a great many men like, and of course everyone should try to love themselves as they are, but it's irresponsible for these "fat acceptance" groups to go over the line and claim that serious obesity isn't bad for you.

I was reading about fat admirers who are apparently men who prefer fat women. As odd as that sounds, I read on more and apparently, they say that the whole "thin is healthy" thing is some kind of politically motivated anti-feminist thing and that there is no real evidence that being overweight is unhealthy. I really don't know what to think. That is not just pseudoscience in the same vein as creationism is regarded by proponents of the theory of evolution, it is downright dangerous. What do you think of the issue?


That most definitely depends on how you live and eat. As long as you have healthy cholestorol levels and stay active, being overweight isn't as bad as being thin technically. I am a big guy and my sister is very little. I am healthier than her in so many ways that it isn't even funny. It also depends on genetics and overall metabolism, plus risk for diabetes and heart disease. The point is though, fat or skinny, as long as you're happy and healthy, who gives a shit?

Matthew

I'm not arguing that being too thin is healthy, of course.

What was the standard of the 1950s?

I can not put numbers on it, I am sure that somebody here will have details somewhere. What I can do is give you an image (http://www.pageantopolis.com/World/World_1955_group_2.jpg) of the ideal female figure in 1955 for our Western culture.

EDIT: I also found this

“In the 1890s, women wore false thighs and hips to create the curvy, voluptuous look, but by the 1920s, they were opting for clothes that would create a boyish figure,” Mintz said. “In the 1950s, Marilyn Monroe’s 5-foot-6, 140-pound body was ideal, while in 1967, women longed for Twiggy’s 5-foot-7, 91-pound frame.”
source (http://web.missouri.edu/~news/tips/march02tips.html)

Basically, they were saying that the claim that being overweight or obese is unhealthy is politically motivated and not actually supported by science.

It is more HOW it is presented that is more politically motivated. For instance, someone who is technically into the overweight category but gets adequate levels of exercise will tend to be healthier than a normal weight person who doesn't get exercise. Also, maintaining weight at moderately overweight levels is healthier than a constant weight gain/loss/gain cycle. If a person could lose the extra weight and keep it off, then it would be healthier but the stress caused by the gain/lose cylce is far more hazardous to health than the extra weight.

Also, and this is just personal, doctors are more and more prescribing dangerous drugs and risky surgeries when the health benefits of those don't outweigh the risk factor caused by the level of 'overweightedness'' they are used for (in other words, the 'cure' is riskier).

Then there is the switch to BMI as a measuring tool, which totally overlooks muscle mass and bone density, body variations, etc.

So while being overweight is less healthy than being a proper weight (although probably more healthy than being chronically underweight), the way 'overweight' is now determined and the way that certain facts are hidden is political in that it strongly favors the diet industry over science.

So yeah, the FA's are probably pushing the facts, but so is the medical/diet industry.

How do you define fat? What's sexy?

I bet most guys here'll agree this is acceptable:
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/ar...smi_150685a.jpg

Personally, I'd rather have the cushioning:
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,233771,00.jpg

But there are limits, for health reasons if no other, right?
http://www.borndigital.com/ag/anna.jpg

Seriously, though - the "ideal" woman in the media is not what a great many men like, and of course everyone should try to love themselves as they are, but it's irresponsible for these "fat acceptance" groups to go over the line and claim that serious obesity isn't bad for you.

What about health, though? Where was she healthiest at?

You can be overweight and still be healthy, but it's pretty damn rare to be obese and be healthy.

Overweight people have a higher likelihood of diabetes, heart disease, hypertension etc BUT just as you've run into smokers who don't have lung cancer or bronchitis, you will find overweight people without those problems.

I know everyone thinks that fat people are all lazy pigs who eat chocolate bars and McDonalds everyday, but surprise, surprise, there are also fat people who eat lots of fruits and vegetables, exercise, and avoid stress. These are the Rubenesque type of people that used to be considered beautiful a few centuries ago.

Body type has a lot to do with it. For example, Inuit people have always tended towards the short and stocky. And they never had a serious problem with diabetes until they were exposed to modern junk food.

Look, I'm not talking about beer guts and rolls of abdominal fat, that is definately not healthy, I'm talking a higher percentage of body fat over the entire body. I'm talking about people with resting heart rates of 70 and a blood pressure of 120/80. Hell, some of the people I'm talking about do bicycle touring trips over 500 kms. In four and a half days. And they are definitely healthier than anorexics and bulemics with too low blood pressure, who are likely to faint if they need to do anything physical. Who eat so little they are constantly fatigued and can't think anymore.

There are extremes at both ends. What you may not realize is that the room in the middle may be larger than you think.

Look, I'm not talking about beer guts and rolls of abdominal fat, that is definately not healthy,

What about big butts?

Apparantly, the biological reason why men like big brests and big hips is that big hips equal an ability to bear a child and big breasts indicate an ability to milk a child well. Mind you, I consider that view a little over simplified as I dont think all men find big breasts and big hips attractive. Although there is an intersting notion called waist to hip ratio.

Apparantly the oestrogen-beauty-fertility connection rears its head again in studies where men decide if a woman's body is sexy or not. Dr Devendra Singh from the University of Texas, points out that while testosterone encourages weight to be put on around the stomach, oestrogen lays it down around the buttocks and thighs, so full buttocks and a narrow waist send out the same message as the ideal face: ''I'm full of oestrogen and fertile."

I was under the impression that being overweight was defined as being at a weight that is unhealthy.

Hardly. According to the generally accepted standard, virtually every NFL running back is overweight, and you'd be hard pressed to find one of them who's unhealthy.

Hardly. According to the generally accepted standard, virtually every NFL running back is overweight, and you'd be hard pressed to find one of them who's unhealthy.

True. Maybe I should clarify that I mean fat rather than muscle.

Apparantly, the biological reason why men like big brests and big hips is that big hips equal an ability to bear a child and big breasts indicate an ability to milk a child well. Mind you, I consider that view a little over simplified as I dont think all men find big breasts and big hips attractive. Although there is an intersting notion called waist to hip ratio.

But modern men don't think of women as child factories anymore. How the theory work now?

Hardly. According to the generally accepted standard, virtually every NFL running back is overweight, and you'd be hard pressed to find one of them who's unhealthy.

On the other hand, it's pretty rare for football players to live into their sixties, nevermind their nineties.

On the other hand, it's pretty rare for football players to live into their sixties, nevermind their nineties.

That just says something about the risks involved in high impact sports, (or could it be drug use) and nothing about longevity being restricted to those who are within a very narrow weight band.

But modern men don't think of women as child factories anymore. How the theory work now?

It works because, when it comes to choosing women, men simply don't think at all. We generally react as driven by our instincts and hormones. Now these are selected, by evolution (or God), to give preference to big hipped, narrow waisted women. Breast size preference I think is just pure personal fetish.

It works because, when it comes to choosing women, men simply don't think at all. We generally react as driven by our instincts and hormones. Now these are selected, by evolution (or God), to give preference to big hipped, narrow waisted women. Breast size preference I think is just pure personal fetish.

Then how you do account for the differing standards of beauty in cultures and fetishes?

I was reading about fat admirers who are apparently men who prefer fat women. As odd as that sounds, I read on more and apparently, they say that the whole "thin is healthy" thing is some kind of politically motivated anti-feminist thing and that there is no real evidence that being overweight is unhealthy. I really don't know what to think. That is not just pseudoscience in the same vein as creationism is regarded by proponents of the theory of evolution, it is downright dangerous. What do you think of the issue?
It's not in the same vein; creationism is not provable or disprovable. This theory is flat out wrong. Obesity leads to heart disease, etc. It's been proven a million times over.

Maybe this is all just like that movie Shallow Hal. Anyone seen it?

It's not in the same vein; creationism is not provable or disprovable. This theory is flat out wrong. Obesity leads to heart disease, etc. It's been proven a million times over.

That's what I thought, but they say that the scientists have been bought off by the diet industry.

That's what I thought, but they say that the scientists have been bought off by the diet industry.

So they're really going to stick to their belief huh.

That's what I thought, but they say that the scientists have been bought off by the diet industry.
they are mistaken or lying, in that case.

that's a popular way for many people to get around scientific evidence that contradicts their positions: they LOVE to claim that the researchers have all been bought. while it is always good to look at who is funding a given research project, you should also be very, very suspicious of anybody who claims that vast quantities of independent research were all corrupted by an evil conspiracy.

they are mistaken or lying, in that case.

that's a popular way for many people to get around scientific evidence that contradicts their positions: they LOVE to claim that the researchers have all been bought. while it is always good to look at who is funding a given research project, you should also be very, very suspicious of anybody who claims that vast quantities of independent research were all corrupted by an evil conspiracy.

Indeed. So they really are promoting some irresponsible ideas.

Indeed. So they really are promoting some irresponsible ideas.
yeah. it's GOOD to remind people that not all measures of "fat" or "thin" are medically sound, but it is VERY BAD to try to claim being medically overweight is perfectly healthy; indeed, the definition of "overweight" in the medical world is weighing more than is healthy for you!

yeah. it's GOOD to remind people that not all measures of "fat" or "thin" are medically sound, but it is VERY BAD to try to claim being medically overweight is perfectly healthy; indeed, the definition of "overweight" in the medical world is weighing more than is healthy for you!

So you think I should call them on their bullshit?

I'm trying to debate them, but they just keep attacking science. They insist that the scientists have all been bought off.

I was reading about fat admirers who are apparently men who prefer fat women. As odd as that sounds, I read on more and apparently, they say that the whole "thin is healthy" thing is some kind of politically motivated anti-feminist thing and that there is no real evidence that being overweight is unhealthy. I really don't know what to think. That is not just pseudoscience in the same vein as creationism is regarded by proponents of the theory of evolution, it is downright dangerous. What do you think of the issue?

Being overweight is very unhealty. Don't let some self-concious fatties tell you otherwise. You don't have to be anorexic...just be fit. You live longer and have a much happier life.

Being overweight is very unhealty. Don't let some self-concious fatties tell you otherwise. You don't have to be anorexic...just be fit. You live longer and have a much happier life.

I know, but no matter what I do, they just won't give in. They keep giving me the same "diet conspiracy" bullshit.

But modern men don't think of women as child factories anymore. How the theory work now?

On a subconsious level.

Being overweight is very unhealty. Don't let some self-concious fatties tell you otherwise. You don't have to be anorexic...just be fit. You live longer and have a much happier life.

Being moderately overweight isn't particularly unhealthy, it's morbid obesity that is unhealthy. I remember a medical study established that a stable moderate overweight was more healthy than losing/gaining weight all the time, like most women do (because you see, 95 percent of diets fail in the long term, it's official statistics). If you poll women, a significant percentage will say they consider they have a weight problem while they have not (well, i don't know about the US, that was a european poll). And since you talk about anorexia, it's statistically a lot more dangerous than obesity. And even in the cases overweight is really a therat to health (not as frequent as said) the problem is that moralitic approach of weight. You know - being fat is baaaad, social rejection by lecturing people and such.

Being moderately overweight isn't particularly unhealthy, it's morbid obesity that is unhealthy. I remember a medical study established that a stable moderate overweight was more healthy than losing/gaining weight all the time, like most women do (because you see, 95 percent of diets fail in the long term, it's official statistics). If you poll women, a significant percentage will say they consider they have a weight problem while they have not (well, i don't know about the US, that was a european poll). And since you talk about anorexia, it's statistically a lot more dangerous than obesity. And even in the cases overweight is really a therat to health (not as frequent as said) the problem is that moralitic approach of weight. You know - being fat is baaaad, social rejection by lecturing people and such.

True, though I see FAs arguing that obesity isn't unhealthy. In addition, I realize fad diets don't do any good. However, I believe in a thing called hard work. If you don't like being overweight, eat right and exercise. Don't put the blame on "scientific bias" and claim there is nothing wrong.

As for anorexia, last time I checked, there are more people with obesity than with anorexia.

I like a thick girl, I don't like a fat girl.
I like a thin girl, I don't like a toothpick.

""thin is healthy" thing is some kind of politically motivated anti-feminist thing and that there is no real evidence that being overweight is unhealthy"

Whoever said this was probably a 400 pound, man hating, butch female, over opinionated, self-righteous, poor excuse for a feminist and needs to go fornicate themselves with barbed wire wrapped around a stick. It's not their fault that everyone thinks they're disguesting and an emtionly unattractive person, it's everyone else's fault for thinking that way!

I love jolly fat people , I hate miserable fat people who blame everyone else.

I just can't stand the whole denial of science thing. The conspiracy theories and personal anecdotes are begining to get on my nerves.