NationStates Jolt Archive

I have lived and worked in Japan for five years, my wife is Japanese and so are many of my friends. Many of my students are high school and jr. high school students. They aren't as smart as you'd think.
I remember back home (the US) constantly be told how great Japanese students are, how much smarter they were then American students. I generally believed this until I actually met some. Sure they can do math
equations and spit out a science answer but for Godssake don't ever ask them one question, "Why?"
It is drilled into them during their education never to question or ask why. I have had a few students who did an exchange year in the US or Australia and they come back hating and dreading the Japanese system. Not because of extra work but because they are not allowed to question anything or discuss anything. One of them had a teacher tell her to shut up because she was bothering her by asking a question about why something was done.
I would never want a child of mine to go through the Japanese system. It simply teaches students to do mindless, repetative tasks in order to prepare them for a future working for a company doing mindless repetative tasks for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. That is basically what my wife's job was.
Much of the educational debate from the US side seems to be a "grass is always greener" thing. Well, I have seem one of the other hills and it has a hell of a lot of patches of dirt.

Hmm...Actually, I've found the same thing to be true of Europe, as well.

It's not unlike us Koreans. I wonder what kind of person I would be today if I didn't have an experience studying abroad in Canada. Not that I'm saying everyone educated in Korea are so, uh, dull, but I can clearly see your point, and even relate somewhat.

Well if you're going to be doing a mindless repetitive job, what better things to do in school than learn to be good at mindless repetitive tasks?

I don't want to say at all that Japanese, or Asians for that matter are stupid robots. I have a lot of great, fun, smart friends over here, I just feel bad for them going through such a machine like educational system.
I think the US model is too undemanding of students. I wish there was a hybrid that infused the strengths of both systems.

So you are complaining that they are being schooled to be prepared for a job? Why are you complaining? They should do that shit in America. All of elementary and highschool is preparation for college and college jsut gives you skills to hopefully get a job. At not point in time are you ever being prepared for your career exactly

So you are complaining that they are being schooled to be prepared for a job? Why are you complaining? They should do that shit in America. All of elementary and highschool is preparation for college and college jsut gives you skills to hopefully get a job. At not point in time are you ever being prepared for your career exactly

not complaining they are being prepared to do a job, complaining how they are being prepared to do a job.

Side question, Why do you hate cows? So tasty, so easily pushed over.

Hmm...Actually, I've found the same thing to be true of Europe, as well.

really, i've never noticed that although i had never heard one of my classmates ask the teacher 'why' because either the teacher doesn't know or the answer would've been way too confusing

You bring up a fascinating inside look, 31. This reminds me of something I've noticed in my experience with the entertainment Japan exports. Robots seem to be an eerily common factor. I have yet to see a major Japanese entertainment export that doesn't in some way feature the robot. For example, gundams and zords on TV, heavy synthesizer content in Japanese pop music, and innumberable references to high technology in video games such as "I love the smell of machinery" in Final Fantasy 7 and "high technology reigns" in Final Fantasy 6. I'm beginning to wonder if Japanese society collectively feels some sense of kinship with the robot. Especially considering how tightly many aspects of Japanese life (like school) are run, I don't think it would be that surprising.

You bring up a fascinating inside look, 31. This reminds me of something I've noticed in my experience with the entertainment Japan exports. Robots seem to be an eerily common factor. I have yet to see a major Japanese entertainment export that doesn't in some way feature the robot. For example, gundams and zords on TV, heavy synthesizer content in Japanese pop music, and innumberable references to high technology in video games such as "I love the smell of machinery" in Final Fantasy 7 and "high technology reigns" in Final Fantasy 6. I'm beginning to wonder if Japanese society collectively feels some sense of kinship with the robot. Especially considering how tightly many aspects of Japanese life (like school) are run, I don't think it would be that surprising.

Freaky! But as I think about it, there are lots of "robots" in Japanese-made games, anime, and syndicated TV shows for kids. :rolleyes:

Hmm...Actually, I've found the same thing to be true of Europe, as well.
Europe isn't a country.

Based on the results of the PISA study, which measures the ability to do /applied/ tasks, Finland has nothing to be shamed of, being the best in every category.

I never said that. I mean as a whole, Europe's educational systems are similiar to the Japanese one's, meaning that while they score high on tests, its only as a result of rote, robotic memorization.

So you are complaining that they are being schooled to be prepared for a job? Why are you complaining? They should do that shit in America. All of elementary and highschool is preparation for college and college jsut gives you skills to hopefully get a job. At not point in time are you ever being prepared for your career exactly

The issue is not that they're being prepared for a job. The issue is that they're taught to never question authority. That's a scary thought. Makes it really easy for the next madman to get into power. Nothing against Japan, but just a general observation.

I never said that. I mean as a whole, Europe's educational systems are similiar to the Japanese one's, meaning that while they score high on tests, its only as a result of rote, robotic memorization.
Again, you're saying that Europe is a country.

In the PISA study, there is no help in memorizing anything. The problems are like "find the shortest route", according to a table of distances an a graph, and then "write an itinerary". There is absolutely no room for succeeding by rote memorization alone in there.

This has something to do with the difference in philosophy between the West and the East. In the West, we've developed certain ideas of rationality, of reason, of logic and of empiricism. This are thing that were introducted to the East, not developed there. That's an important difference.

Also, the Japanese education system in grade school and high school stresses the group over the individual; the same class of children is always together, in the same room. The teachers simply switch rooms when the period ends. This is to encourage people to work within the group, to support the whole.

Japanese economics if an example of this kind of collectivist way of thinking at work. Everyone works hard together in order to accomplish a goal without every questioning the direction they're headed in, and because of this, they accomplish what their leaders want quickly and efficiently. That's how they bounced back so quickly after WWII.

This is related to the kind of robotic, unquestioning mind you're saying is developed in the Japanese mind. The group works best, in a manner of speaking, when everybody is collectively working and not causing any disruption. Whereas Westerners tend to believe in the strength of the individual human mind; in Genius.

I'll be studying in Japan next year, if all things go according to plan, at Hiroshima University. I'll have an even better view on the matter then.

Again, you're saying that Europe is a country.

In the PISA study, there is no help in memorizing anything. The problems are like "find the shortest route", according to a table of distances an a graph, and then "write an itinerary". There is absolutely no room for succeeding by rote memorization alone in there.
I'm saying Europe in general. It's not one country, but many base similarities pervade througout. And I'm sorry, I didn't realize that PISA was different from standard tests.

I have lived and worked in Japan for five years, my wife is Japanese and so are many of my friends. Many of my students are high school and jr. high school students. They aren't as smart as you'd think.
I remember back home (the US) constantly be told how great Japanese students are, how much smarter they were then American students. I generally believed this until I actually met some. Sure they can do math
equations and spit out a science answer but for Godssake don't ever ask them one question, "Why?"
It is drilled into them during their education never to question or ask why. I have had a few students who did an exchange year in the US or Australia and they come back hating and dreading the Japanese system. Not because of extra work but because they are not allowed to question anything or discuss anything. One of them had a teacher tell her to shut up because she was bothering her by asking a question about why something was done.
I would never want a child of mine to go through the Japanese system. It simply teaches students to do mindless, repetative tasks in order to prepare them for a future working for a company doing mindless repetative tasks for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. That is basically what my wife's job was.
Much of the educational debate from the US side seems to be a "grass is always greener" thing. Well, I have seem one of the other hills and it has a hell of a lot of patches of dirt.

I've been in Japan almost 14 years now (it will be 14 years Martch 31).

I've spent my whole time in education in some form (1 year as an exchange student at a 2 year college, 2 years as a teacher at an English "specialty school", and 11 years outside the formal school system - private language schools, corporate traing contracts, etc.).

My comment? Bingo! The cause, however, has more to do with history than has been suggested.

The Chinese impact on Japanese culture in general, and education in particular is enormous.

It has been suggested that the first real contacts between China and Japan left Japan with an ideal of the best and highest. This is often seen in Japan's propensity to copy things.

Secondly, the influance of Confucian concepts (especially emphasized rote learning and not questioning authority) has been quite strong.

Finally, not related to China, the somewhat totalitarian Edo Shogunate largely changed Japanese culture, quashing what remaining ideas of independence there was.

and the us education system teaches never to question the rightness of us philosphy.they both exist to create drones.merely they do it diffrently.

What's "U.S. philosophy," Rasados?

and the US education system teaches never to question the rightness of US philosphy.they both exist to create drones.merely they do it diffrently.
Not really . . . my AP US History IH teacher, a staunch conservative/Republican, *constantly* forces us (through discussion) to question the whole system our Constitution we've set up . . . I've now discovered a number of problems, and am trying to figure out the way to improve on them

I have lived and worked in Japan for five years, my wife is Japanese and so are many of my friends. Many of my students are high school and jr. high school students. They aren't as smart as you'd think.
I remember back home (the US) constantly be told how great Japanese students are, how much smarter they were then American students. I generally believed this until I actually met some. Sure they can do math
equations and spit out a science answer but for Godssake don't ever ask them one question, "Why?"
It is drilled into them during their education never to question or ask why. I have had a few students who did an exchange year in the US or Australia and they come back hating and dreading the Japanese system. Not because of extra work but because they are not allowed to question anything or discuss anything. One of them had a teacher tell her to shut up because she was bothering her by asking a question about why something was done.
I would never want a child of mine to go through the Japanese system. It simply teaches students to do mindless, repetative tasks in order to prepare them for a future working for a company doing mindless repetative tasks for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. That is basically what my wife's job was.
Much of the educational debate from the US side seems to be a "grass is always greener" thing. Well, I have seem one of the other hills and it has a hell of a lot of patches of dirt.

I have some suspicion about your story. I think it is fabricated. How about a wedding photo and a present day photo.

Having taught in Hong Kong now for 7 months, I can agree with you about the Asian educational system. The emphasis is almost solely on studying for the next test and regurgitating facts. They're only good at maths because it's drilled into them from an early age. They're learning things at Yr9 that isn't taught until Yr11 in New Zealand.
If you were to ask them to come up with as many uses for a paper clip in 60 seconds (and I have), you'll be lucky to get 5 - and they'll all be connected with clipping things together. Creative thinking is not taught or encouraged.
However I think that's due to several factors. Sure there's social emphasis on passing the 'hard' subjects (I mean hard as tangible like maths or science as opposed to arts), but also the class sizes here (and throughout Asia) are generally 40-50 students. Even in Yr13. In NZ by Yr13, schools usually try to set a limit of 10-12 students p/class so each student can get individual attention by the teacher if necessary and has a chance to ask questions.
As a teacher, the only effective way to teach that many is by lecturing and have them copy from the board. If I was to spend 10 minutes helping one student, that's very unfair to the other 49 in the class. It also creates a situation where chaos could ensure because I'm ignoring what the other 49 students are doing. As a result their reading and writing skills are excellent but their speaking skills are shocking.
Class sizes are this big from Yr1 right through. So Students are taught right from their first day at school to sit quietly and copy the work from the board.
So everything is set up to enforce passive learning - societal expectations, teaching techniques and class sizes.

As an aside, I was talking to a music promotor the other day about this problem and he mentioned a friend of his who's a Radio DJ. The DJ had this great idea of getting two groups of (HK born) students in - one group who had been taught overseas, and the 2nd who had been through the HK education system - and seeing if their really was a difference between the two when given problems that needed creative solutions.
It was a complete failure and he scrapped the idea after a couple of shows, because the HK-educated students couldn't come up with any creative ideas at all and would rarely say a word. The other group were gregarious and really enthusiastic and would come up with all sorts of cool crazy ideas.
Which kinda proves it's not an 'Asian' thing, it's just an Educational system thing.

Maybe a reason why Asian's are more Industrious? People who think less but use their hands more are good workers for menial boring tasks. And you need them too. Hence outsourcing. :D

IMO, lots of smart Asians would already be overseas, and the one's in US are the smarter one's because of tight immigration standards.

I'm saying Europe in general. It's not one country, but many base similarities pervade througout. And I'm sorry, I didn't realize that PISA was different from standard tests.
You'll have to state which European countries you refer to. I agree on the point that in some European countries, there are "class systems" and various other problems that hinder creative thinking.

One thing special to Finland, which shows in the PISA results, is that the teacher's qualification is a Master's degree from an university, and the salary is comparatively high. I think that this could be limiting factor for many countries: the teachers simply don't know enough about the field they're teaching in, and then cannot encourage creativity, because they can't control it.

But I doubt that in some European countries, the system would be as bad as in Japan. What I've been informed by a teacher who went to Japan, their day-time schools are only for meeting friends and hanging out. They don't really learn anything at school, when compared to Europe. Then, at evenings, they go to expensive prep classes where they then actually learn something.

Fascinating. This answers some huge questions. So the reason they know so many kanji isn't due to some counterintuitively high intelligence but a form of brainwashing. The high rates of paraphilia and other psychological disorders may also have a root in this totalitarianism.

Maybe a reason why Asian's are more Industrious? People who think less but use their hands more are good workers for menial boring tasks. And you need them too. Hence outsourcing. :D

IMO, lots of smart Asians would already be overseas, and the one's in US are the smarter one's because of tight immigration standards.

I've seen people bringing their family to North America, because their kids weren't doing well in school enough to go to college. Not that I'm saying everyone's like that, of course. :cool: But I've definitely seen such cases. Not to mention that I've seen tons of Asian kids hanging out only with "their own kind", hence not improving their English enough to keep up with the schoolwork.

I don't want to say at all that Japanese, or Asians for that matter are stupid robots. I have a lot of great, fun, smart friends over here, I just feel bad for them going through such a machine like educational system.
I think the US model is too undemanding of students. I wish there was a hybrid that infused the strengths of both systems.

If the present system keep cutting on Art, Gym and Music courses we could find ourselves with the japanese sytem in no time. Except our students wil be too apathetic to learn and would suck.

Whereas Westerners tend to believe in the strength of the individual human mind; in Genius.
Interesting thing in regards to that is the emphasis on the individual's strength in many animes. Of course there is the counter to this in the form of team animes(usually featuring transforming robots).

Hmm...Actually, I've found the same thing to be true of Europe, as well.

I dont know what part of Europe you are talking about but I am in the UK and I spend a good 60-70% of my time in class listening to other peoples questions and the answers to them or asking questions myself and listening to the answers.

Well, Finland is far different from most European countries. The Finnish were always rather strange. I guess when I refer to Europe, it's mainly concerning continental Europe (with the exception of Finland, and possibly the Netherlands/Holland), especially Eastern Europe.