NationStates Jolt Archive

An abortifacient is an agent (as a drug) that induces or causes abortion. These abortion-causing chemicals and devices kill babies in the first few days of their lives. The Pill, the Mini-Pill, Depo-Provera, Norplant, the "morning after pill" (emergency contraception) and the IUD are publicized as simply preventing ovulation (releasing an egg from the woman's ovary) and conception. The truth is that these drugs also alter the lining of the womb so that the newly conceived child cannot attach himself or herself to the wall of the uterus or womb. If a baby cannot implant in the lining of the womb to receive nourishment, he or she dies. Other abortifacients, RU-486 and methotrexate break down and destroy the baby's surroundings after he or she has implanted in the mother's womb, taking away the baby's nourishment and the hormone (progesterone) that the baby requires for growth and development. Once the little boy or girl is dead, a second chemical causes contractions and the dead baby is pushed out of the mother's womb. Birth control kills.

I don't care if people eat "babies" in the first few days after conception. They haven't developed a brain yet. No brain = not human to me.

For the uninitiated!

That 'baby'/'boy or girl' he's talking about?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/Shaed/zygote.jpg

Yeah.

That way of thinking could be put to several players on NS, hehe.

I say we should be able to eat babies within the first year of birth.

Nothing but juicy white meat.

The girlfriend uses birth control, and once they make a safe male form of the pill I will use it. And no, There is nothing you could do to prevent us from using it.

The appearance of the baby doesn't matter. Those four cells have separate DNA from their mother. They are human in their own right.

Abortion is good.

The appearance of the baby doesn't matter. Those four cells have separate DNA from their mother. They are human in their own right.
I don't consider anything that can't think or feel to be human. Brain dead people have living cells full of uniqe DNA too. Is pulling the plug murder?

I say we should be able to eat babies within the first year of birth.

Nothing but juicy white meat.

No flavour at that age....need a long hard marinade first....

No flavour at that age....need a long hard marinade first....
Watch how long you marinade them. The flesh is very tender already. Marinade too long and the meat begins to get a gelatinous consistency.

The girlfriend uses birth control, and once they make a safe male form of the pill I will use it. And no, There is nothing you could do to prevent us from using it.

Unless you live in a small town in America, where pharmacists are hiding behind the 'conscientious objector' clause to REFUSE to fill birth-control scripts. Even if they're needed for reasons other than birth control, and even though *pharmacists* should have no right to overrule a *doctor's* prescription.

Luckily it's not a wide-spread practice here in Australia, because I'd be leaving a trail of bloody carnage if it was.

The appearance of the baby doesn't matter. Those four cells have separate DNA from their mother. They are human in their own right.

Oh look...I just pulled out a strand of hair from my head....loaded with DNA...must be human....Guess I'll call him Harry....DOH!!!

I don't consider anything that can't think or feel to be human. Brain dead people have living cells full of uniqe DNA too. Is pulling the plug murder?

It depends. They're brain dead, right? So, are we using the "heart stop and no breathing" definition of dead or the "no brain waves" defintion of dead?

Watch how long you marinade them. The flesh is very tender already. Marinade too long and the meat begins to get a gelatinous consistency.

Cool!!! Jello!!!!

The appearance of the baby doesn't matter. Those four cells have separate DNA from their mother. They are human in their own right.
Identical twins have identical DNA. Which one, or are both not human?

Oh look...I just pulled out a strand of hair from my head....loaded with DNA...must be human....Guess I'll call him Harry....DOH!!!

But that strand of hair has the same DNA as you do. The DNA of that fetus is separate from its mother.

The appearance of the baby doesn't matter. Those four cells have separate DNA from their mother. They are human in their own right.

Uh... they don't even qualify as a separate organism at that point. Take a biology course before you try making statements that require science to back them up.

Also! Even if they were a separate human, no human gets to use another humans organs other ANY circumstances - why exactly should a clump of cells with no nervous system or sentience be given more rights than any other human? And why should women be the only ones to lose the right to their organs, and ONLY when they're pregnent?

It depends. They're brain dead, right? So, are we using the "heart stop and no breathing" definition of dead or the "no brain waves" defintion of dead?
A brain dead human is still chock full of living cells. The heart is often still pumping. Just can't think or feel because too much of the brain is destroyed.

Identical twins have identical DNA. Which one, or are both not human?

They both are. They have separate DNA from their mother. So they are both individuals.

They both are. They have separate DNA from their mother. So they are both individuals.
What about a cancerous tumor taken from a woman's body. It has different DNA. It's human tissue too. My appendix has different DNA from my mother. If it gets inflamed should I not get it removed?

Unless you live in a small town in America, where pharmacists are hiding behind the 'conscientious objector' clause to REFUSE to fill birth-control scripts. Even if they're needed for reasons other than birth control, and even though *pharmacists* should have no right to overrule a *doctor's* prescription.

Luckily it's not a wide-spread practice here in Australia, because I'd be leaving a trail of bloody carnage if it was.

It's not as widespread as is thought. Most pharmacys are ok about filling birth control scripts. The only that woun't carry Birth control is wal-mart.

But that strand of hair has the same DNA as you do. The DNA of that fetus is separate from its mother.

LOLOL!!!!! ummmm......do some reading/learning then come back

They both are. They have separate DNA from their mother. So they are both individuals.

But they have the same DNA as each other (at least, at the zygote stage - eventually mutations occur which make them different, but that's not really relevent).

If a zygote is only a human because it has different DNA to the mother, then DNA is what defines a human Therefore identicle twins are one person (bonus fact! They come from one egg, too. So it's a matter of 'sperm meets egg, becomes two identicle humans).

Uh... they don't even qualify as a separate organism at that point. Take a biology course before you try making statements that require science to back them up.

Also! Even if they were a separate human, no human gets to use another humans organs other ANY circumstances - why exactly should a clump of cells with no nervous system or sentience be given more rights than any other human? And why should women be the only ones to lose the right to their organs, and ONLY when they're pregnent?

I apologize if anyone finds this too crass. Don't forget, the woman made the choice to have sex. She could have chosen to use a condom or not had sex at all.

I apologize if anyone finds this too crass. Don't forget, the woman made the choice to have sex. She could have chosen to use a condom or not had sex at all.
Or perhaps stayed at home unless accompanied by a male relative so she wouldn't be raped.

I apologize if anyone finds this too crass. Don't forget, the woman made the choice to have sex. She could have chosen to use a condom or not had sex at all.
Or she could have been raped. Or the condom could have broken. Or any number of other things.

I apologize if anyone finds this too crass. Don't forget, the woman made the choice to have sex. She could have chosen to use a condom or not had sex at all.

And if she DID use a condom? Don't you go making assumptions, because they make you look stupid if they're incorrect.

What about a cancerous tumor taken from a woman's body. It has different DNA. It's human tissue too. My appendix has different DNA from my mother. If it gets inflamed should I not get it removed?

A cancerous tumor isn't human. It may be made of human tissue, but it's not human.

What is a human? That seems to be central to the debate.

I approve of birth control, but not of abortion. IMO, it isn't human until the sperm and egg unite.

A cancerous tumor isn't human. It may be made of human tissue, but it's not human.

What is a human? That seems to be central to the debate.
So why is a mass of undifferentiated cells human?

I don't agree with Abortion Given the chance, i prolly wouldnt do it. But hey, everyone has their own choice and opinions...

A cancerous tumor isn't human. It may be made of human tissue, but it's not human.

What is a human? That seems to be central to the debate.

Yes. And so far every defintion you've come up with would HAVE to include the tumour.

In science you can't just say "This is the way I want to define it, and that's it". There has to be logic buried in there somewhere.

And actually, whether it's human or not is utterly meaningless. No human would be allowed to use a woman's womb for their own nutrition against her will. There's no logically consistent reason why a clump of cells should get this right when no other human does

Unless you're just out to punish women for sex, that is. In which case, carry on.

But hey, everyone has their own choice and opinions...


This is by far one of the best things I have seen in this thread yet.

I approve of birth control, but not of abortion. IMO, it isn't human until the sperm and egg unite.

Reread first thread - occasionally Birth Control will not stop and egg being released. If that egg gets fertilised, the hormone levels that are caused by the Birth Control will terminate the zygote.

Commando2
Member


Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 324
I stopped reading there

I stopped reading there

Hey, now. He's just a 13-year-old kid that needs to re-think his positions a little.

Haloman
Quite Deadly


Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 474
Hey, now. He's just a 13-year-old kid that needs to re-think his positions a little.
I stopped..........



Just kidding. Is he really 13? And yeah, he seriously needs to rethink his positions a little

I stopped..........



Just kidding. Is he really 13? And yeah, he seriously needs to rethink his positions a little

Yeah, I think he said so in one of his first posts. I think he has the right mindset, he just doesn't think things through on a logical perspective.

And by right mindset, I mean RIGHT mindset.

Yeah, I think he said so in one of his first posts. I think he has the right mindset, he just doesn't think things through on a logical perspective.

And by right mindset, I mean RIGHT mindset.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiight

Yeah, I think he said so in one of his first posts. I think he has the right mindset, he just doesn't think things through on a logical perspective.

And by right mindset, I mean RIGHT mindset.

I can only hope you somehow managed to fail to write '-wing' twice.

Because otherwise your post makes me sad :(
(and every time you make me sad, God kills a kitten.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/Shaed/kitty.bmp
Please... think of the kittens :()

God damn you people and your dry senses of humor.

Yes, of course I meant right wing. But he's correct on many things, I just think he takes them way too far.

God damn you people and your dry senses of humor.

Yes, of course I meant right wing. But he's correct on many things, I just think he takes them way too far.

Wayyyyyyyyyy too far. Like, 'outer atmosphere' too far. 'In space, no one can hear you claim abortion is wrong' type far.

Actually I'm 17 why does everyone think I am 13? I can see Jesussaves being 13 due to his grammar but me?

Actually I'm 17 why does everyone think I am 13? I can see Jesussaves being 13 due to his grammar but me?
Jesussaves is way too funny to be 13. I'd bet he's about 30 or so.

Actually I'm 17 why does everyone think I am 13? I can see Jesussaves being 13 due to his grammar but me?

*slaps forehead*

Damnit, your views would be tolerable coming from a 13 year old. Why did you have to ruin that?

well seeing as he is 17, I'm not going to give him time to go through puberty. I've decided he is just a plain religious nut

*slaps forehead*

Damnit, your views would be tolerable coming from a 13 year old. Why did you have to ruin that?
agreed

Actually I'm 17 why does everyone think I am 13? I can see Jesussaves being 13 due to his grammar but me?
Claiming you are 17 is an insult to 17 year olds everywhere. Just as this is an insult to you. Just because a thing has different DNA from the thing it came from doesn't make it a human. Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation. As such it can alter DNA. You do not have the same DNA you did yesterday. Your arm has different DNA from your nose.

Claiming you are 17 is an insult to 17 year olds everywhere. Just as this is an insult to you. Just because a thing has different DNA from the thing it came from doesn't make it a human. Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation. As such it can alter DNA. You do not have the same DNA you did yesterday. Your arm has different DNA from your nose.

Ooooooh! I like you. *gives Pongoar a cookie for making a great, previously un-made point*

I don't agree with Abortion Given the chance, i prolly wouldnt do it. But hey, everyone has their own choice and opinions...

I personally couldn't have said it any better. good job.

oo, oo, oooo, what age am i?

oh, and on the abortion matter, i personally think it is wrong

oo, oo, oooo, what age am i?
I've never seen a post by you before, but since you care so much I guess 15

I've never seen a post by you before, but since you care so much I guess 15

why 15?

Claiming you are 17 is an insult to 17 year olds everywhere. Just as this is an insult to you. Just because a thing has different DNA from the thing it came from doesn't make it a human. Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation. As such it can alter DNA. You do not have the same DNA you did yesterday. Your arm has different DNA from your nose.
and your mitochondria have TOTALLY different DNA from your cellular DNA, and they always have! it is human DNA, it is unique, and it is quite distinct from cellular DNA. i guess that means that our mitochondria are also babies, living inside our cells, and we are murdering piles of babies every time we shed a single cell because each cell may contain many mitochondria.

if unique human DNA = a unique human person, then every single one of us is a mass murderer.

why 15?
I was basing it off the fact that you wanted people to guess. most people over 20 don't really care about how old others think they are. Also the fact that you didn't contribute to the subject at hand in that post, yet included it in the next one, which would have been easily edited into the first one.

Make Love not Babies

I was basing it off the fact that you wanted people to guess. most people over 20 don't really care about how old others think they are. Also the fact that you didn't contribute to the subject at hand in that post, yet included it in the next one, which would have been easily edited into the first one.

hmmm... i was just bored and was skimming through the threads but... ok

Make Love not Babies

wouldn't that slowly destroy human population on earth?

hmmm... i was just bored and was skimming through the threads but... ok
considering I have never seen one of your posts before I think idid a pretty good job. Damni tnow you got me wondering, how old are you?

wouldn't that slowly destroy human population on earth?

at least you wouldnt have to put someone through college

How the Pill Works

Combination pills contain both estrogen and progestin, hormones that are made naturally by a woman's body. The pill simply increases those dosages. Combination pills work by preventing a woman's ovaries from releasing eggs (ovulation). They also thicken the cervical mucus, which keeps sperm from joining with an egg, on the rare occasion where ovulation occurs anyway. In the even more rare event that a sperm joins with the egg, the thickening of the cervical mucus also keeps the egg from clinging to the uterine wall. A pregnancy cannot occur unless the egg joins to the wall, which is where the developing embryo gets its nutrients. Until the egg attaches to the wall, (called implantation) the woman IS NOT be considered pregnant, since even if a woman doesn't use birth control pills, a combined egg and sperm may not join to the uterine wall. (Yes, there are extremely rare cases of a fertilized egg joining to a fallopian tube, but that is considered an abnormal ectopic pregnancy.)

Progestin-only pills usually work by thickening the cervical mucus. Sometimes they prevent ovulation.

Birth control pills prevent ovulation 70-97% of the time, depending on whose stats you believe. On the rare occasion that a woman on contraceptives does ovulate, remember, eggs only live for one day. They are only released once per month. If they are not fertilized within 12-24 hours or so, they are reabsorbed by the woman's body. So even if the woman does ovulate while on the pill, what are the chances that she is going to have sex within the right time period? If the sperm are released in the right time period, they are slowed down by the thickened cervical mucus. This increases the likelihood that the sperm will be killed in the naturally acidic environment of the vagina. (Even if no birth control is used, millions of little sperm die long before the ever reach the egg.)

Once a few brave sperm reach the egg, there are further barriers. Every egg is surrounded by protective cells and many little sperm buddies are lost trying to clear the way to the actual ova. If not enough sperm survived the earlier ordeals, fertilization does not occur.

Anyway, what I am trying to show you is just how hard it is to get pregnant if you are correctlyusing birth control pills. The odds are very much stacked against it, even if you accept the 30% chance of ovulation touted by the anti-contraception crowd. Which I don't. This is why only 3 out of 1000 women wil get pregnant using the Pill (as long as they use it properly).

To the kids out there that have been told that the pill is an abortificant:

Simply, no, it is not. The hormones in the birth control pill do not 'terminate' the zygote. They are simply higher levels of hormones that already naturally occur in every woman's body. It simply improves a woman's defenses against getting pregnant. Remember, pregnancy does not occur until the fertilized egg has been implanted in the uterine lining. Women's bodies already have many natural buffers against getting pregnant, which are more effective in some women than others. What the birth control pill does is make those defenses stronger.

Birth control pills also have other preventative uses. They are also prescribed for (or to prevent):

# cancer of the lining of the uterus

# cancer of the ovaries

# ectopic pregnancy

# iron deficiency anemia that can result from heavy menses

# noncancerous breast growths

# osteoporosis

# ovarian cysts

# premenstrual symptoms, as well as related headaches and depression

A pharmacist who refuses to fill a prescription for a birth control pill may actually be refusing a patient medication intended to prevent her from getting cancer.

Of course, you can also now get contraceptive shots, patches, and rings, all of which work much the same way as the pill, it's just administered in another way.

<snip for length>

I... I think I love you.

*takes notes of wording and points in between idolising Equus*

considering I have never seen one of your posts before I think idid a pretty good job. Damni tnow you got me wondering, how old are you?

ho, ho, hoo, wouln't you like to know....

I... I think I love you.

*takes notes of wording and points in between idolising Equus*

Aw...thanks!

As a woman interested in not being pregnant, I like to know how things work.

And I really hate it when people say that birth control is the same as abortion, I have no idea how the anti-contraceptive crowd managed to brainwash so many doctors and pharmacists. They should [i]know how contraceptives prevent pregnancies. Don't they study pregnancy in school? But no, they get taken in by the 'pill terminates zygote' myth too. Go figure.

ho, ho, hoo, wouln't you like to know....
and with that said, I've quit caring.

<snip> Birth control kills.

Okie. I applaud you having an opinion. However, I will give you a little grey area to work with.

What about married people?

I have three children and that is enough. Should my wife be forced to squeeze out a new baby every year until death or menopause? Should my wife be forced to have unnecessary removal of her uterus? Should I be forced to have an unecessary vasectomy?

Should my wife and I abstain from sexual relations until she reaches menopause?

No ... I don't think so. We'll keep the pill, thanks. I'm sorry if you find us immoral for that, but thems the breaks.

As soon as I can afford one, I am getting a vasectomy.

As soon as I can afford one, I am getting a vasectomy.

Kudos! See how easy it is to let people have a choice?

I will not get a vasectomy, AnarchyeL will get a vasectomy.

Nobody is calling either of us a sinner or baby killer, nobody is throwing rocks at our houses, everybody is perfectly happy with the whole business and are getting on with their own lives without a care in the world concerning the choices we have made.

Now why, oh tell me why, are we allowed to make a simple choice without anyone getting all up in arms about it? Because we have penises? Well that's just retarded.

Either fight to ban vasectomies as strongly as you fight to ban abortion (they are, after all, the same thing - removal and destruction of cells), or LET PEOPLE FUCKING CHOOSE!

To Commando2: I absolutely promise you that not one single woman in the history of the world who has made the difficult choice to have an abortion has had any affect on your life whatsoever. Let women choose.

*starts the chant* LET WOMEN CHOOSE! LET WOMEN CHOOSE! LET WOMEN CHOOSE!

Kudos! See how easy it is to let people have a choice?

I will not get a vasectomy, AnarchyeL will get a vasectomy.

Nobody is calling either of us a sinner or baby killer, nobody is throwing rocks at our houses, everybody is perfectly happy with the whole business and are getting on with their own lives without a care in the world concerning the choices we have made.

well duh, because you guys are supposed to be out having actual lives, while women are supposed to do NOTHING but have and rear children. ever.

Now why, oh tell me why, are we allowed to make a simple choice without anyone getting all up in arms about it? Because we have penises?
you don't have the uterus, and that's the key. the Lord made women to gestate and suffer, dagnabbit, and that's what them womenfolks oughter be doing!

An abortifacient is an agent (as a drug) that induces or causes abortion. These abortion-causing chemicals and devices kill babies in the first few days of their lives. The Pill, the Mini-Pill, Depo-Provera, Norplant, the "morning after pill" (emergency contraception) and the IUD are publicized as simply preventing ovulation (releasing an egg from the woman's ovary) and conception. The truth is that these drugs also alter the lining of the womb so that the newly conceived child cannot attach himself or herself to the wall of the uterus or womb. If a baby cannot implant in the lining of the womb to receive nourishment, he or she dies. Other abortifacients, RU-486 and methotrexate break down and destroy the baby's surroundings after he or she has implanted in the mother's womb, taking away the baby's nourishment and the hormone (progesterone) that the baby requires for growth and development. Once the little boy or girl is dead, a second chemical causes contractions and the dead baby is pushed out of the mother's womb. Birth control kills.

Murder would be if I stabbed you in the throat, possibly while people video taped it.

Birth control primarily works by preventing an ovum from being released, it also thickens the uterine lining, preventing implantation, should an egg be released and fertillized. Given that the egg isn't guaranteed to become fertilized, and already has a high chance of not implanting anyways no one can logically argue that birth control counts as abortion.

Do yourself a favour, read some Ayn Rand, some Chomsky and maybe some Marx then go get laid and maybe try some E, come back and tell me all this crap is still true.

Do it for humanity. :fluffle:

Do yourself a favour, read some Ayn Rand, some Chomsky and maybe some Marx then go get laid and maybe try some E, come back and tell me all this crap is still true.

Do it for humanity. :fluffle:

This is the first time I've ever seen someone recommend Ayn Rand with MArx and Noam Chomsky in the same breath. I may not survive it.

[has heart attack and dies]

Where do you kids get this stupid, inaccurate information from, anyway?
Abstinance only education

Abstinance only education

And that certainly is the truth. I was recently informed that if I had sex, I would have a 1 in 25 chance of dying. All brought to you by absinance only education.

Damn...I am really sorry that I missed the begining of this thread...Could've been fun!

My Two Cents: A egg is just an egg, a sperm is just a sperm. But when they come together...something magical happens...NOT!!!

Don't give me any of that "miracle of life" crap. It's just a chemical reaction, and it ain't living yet!

shall i close it...
women choice.period

This is the first time I've ever seen someone recommend Ayn Rand with Marx and Noam Chomsky in the same breath. I may not survive it.

[has heart attack and dies]

It's all about developing your own point of view, the more different perspectives one has learned about the more angles they can attack parodoxes (parodoxi?) in their own beliefs.

I think I have a reliable solution to the problem that doesn't require much painful debate and philosophy:

Women need to stop being such sluts!

jesus christ!

And another thing; all these people trying to argue that "oh, it's still in the womb so it's not immoral", "it's technically not a human so it's okay", "it won't feel it or have an opinion so it's okay" -- What a bunch of pussies!

are you that afraid of a connotation?

Killing something is killing something. whether it's a human or a hippo or a single cell. if it's organic, or has the potential for life, and you terminate that, then you've killed something. you've murdered.

I don't see how preventing something that will be alive is any different from killing it after it's alive, or after it's outside of a vagina, or WHATEVER. It doesn't matter, stop tapdancing, take off those stupid little shoes! Get back to the point (if there is one)

Now I, personally, don't favour abortion or birth control. Not because I think that all life is "precious".... but because I know that all life is meaningless. Your life is not more valuable than a rape victim's fetus, or some slut's sputum. The Pope's life has exactly as much purpose and significance as the bacteria on his anus--that is, none. The use of abortion and birth control is arrogant, and almost always hypocritical. All morality is realitve, so any attempt within a convention of society or even a personal opinion to draw a line between the right to life and the right above life has no grounding and it will only cause problems. because it's all fictional.

Humans, as well as many other animals, are intelligent because we're social. Because we cooperate with other people, we've been able to evolve complex traits for and about those cooperations. And that makes us smart in ther head! Doink!

Empathy, morality, etc..

This means that we're capable of understanding that living things are all equally alive, and so they deserve that which comes with living (the most basic and important of those prerogatives being survival) no more or less than something else that is alive. So we can respect these imaginary rights that we came up with, because if we don't (if we kill when we don't want to be killed for example) then it means we don't respect the right. and the only reason we have the right in the first place is because we're all equal. therefore, if we do not respect the right for one person (or animal, or organism) then it means we also do not respect (deserve) it for ourselves. in which case you can be sentenced to the death penalty, and nobody will give a damn about your ass. (except me, because although i'm principled, i'm also hypocritically empathetic)

but then of course i understand that like i said, survival is the most important thing. so if a person thinks that having the child will kill them, then they would kill the child (or anything else) regardless of the morality involved. in which case it may be assumed that since the organism threatens the life os the person (the existence of the living fetus threatens the life of the mother for example) that the organism then does not deserve the same right to live, because it is not respecting it.

Priorities.

So what's my point? final summation?

Women need to stop being so slutty!

I've just unintentionally shown that my entire theory is self defeating, so i guess.... the morality is relative and imaginary, and so it can't be considered in absolute terms. so i think the only thing that would actually be at least a semi-solution is to get women that have some goddamn self control, and understanding. I don't think that people should have a right to choose unless they're capable of making the right choices. And if the consequence of this girl's obsession with her wet loins is that things are getting killed in the process, then there's something that obviously needs to be done. And since there isn't a real "right" or "wrong" answer, all we can hope to do is educate everyone and let them make an intelligent decision on their own.

Plus, if we can put that into practice, we won't need any damn politics to be involved! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

I say let's celebrate my profound ideas by slaughtering an entire farm, and holding a feast in honor of my selfless and honorable brilliance!

:squashes a bug:


~mr popular

An abortifacient is an agent (as a drug) that induces or causes abortion. These abortion-causing chemicals and devices kill babies in the first few days of their lives. The Pill, the Mini-Pill, Depo-Provera, Norplant, the "morning after pill" (emergency contraception) and the IUD are publicized as simply preventing ovulation (releasing an egg from the woman's ovary) and conception. The truth is that these drugs also alter the lining of the womb so that the newly conceived child cannot attach himself or herself to the wall of the uterus or womb. If a baby cannot implant in the lining of the womb to receive nourishment, he or she dies. Other abortifacients, RU-486 and methotrexate break down and destroy the baby's surroundings after he or she has implanted in the mother's womb, taking away the baby's nourishment and the hormone (progesterone) that the baby requires for growth and development. Once the little boy or girl is dead, a second chemical causes contractions and the dead baby is pushed out of the mother's womb. Birth control kills.

So, when are you going to start sending hate-mail to fertility doctors? Many women who want to get pregnant can produce ovum perfectly capable of being fertilized, but other medical problems prevent the implantation of the otherwise perfectly viable fertalized ovum. These women have sex for years before knowing that they are for the mostly infertile, then when they go to fertility clinics they take drugs to help overcome this problem - the whole time purposely timing their sex so that conception will happen all the while knowing the the poor innocent little fertilized ovum has a very tiny chance of actually implanting :eek: The immorality :eek:

Or when are you going to ban women from using NSAID's (aspirin, acetaminophen) the chances of non-implantation and even miscarriage later in preganancy rise dramatically if these common, sometimes over the counter pain killers which are the best if not only non-narcotic form of pain relief for certain conditions are taken during after an egg is fertilized, *especially right around the time of fertilzation* (and hey, no light bulb goes off letting a woman know when she is able to concieve or has just concieved), and the chance is even greater that the ovum will not implant or a miscarriage will happen. But what is the suffering of women if the life of a 'baaay-beeee' is saved, eh?

Oh wait, what the hell I am even thinking?!?!?! We should stop letting women have sex at all, because a great number of fertilized ovum never implant in the first place!!! All women who have sex without first removing their ovaries are potential murderers!!!!11one1!!!! :eek:

I think I have a reliable solution to the problem that doesn't require much painful debate and philosophy:

Women need to stop being such sluts!
...... snip - (feel free to imagine what )


Yeah! Because everyone knows that women really reproduce by asexual cell division just like amoeba do and due to the super-secret feminist conspiracy to overthrow the world- purposely time that cell division so that it happens after heterosexual sex so that they can sue men for child-support :headbang:

Yeah! Because everyone knows that women really reproduce by asexual cell division just like amoeba do and due to the super-secret feminist conspiracy to overthrow the world- purposely time that cell division so that it happens after heterosexual sex so that they can sue men for child-support :headbang:
Wait a minute, wouldn't the super-secret evil Bush conspiracy put a stop to any secret feminist agenda? :D

RU-486 is not the morning after pill, it is the abortion pill, as many call it. That is the only thing Commando was right about in his post. I think women should be allowed to take it, i am pro-choice, i just wanted to point out the difference. Like a surgical abortion, it destroys a fetus once a woman is already pregnant. There is a morning after pill, but it is not RU-486, they are different.

They are both evil though.

They are both evil though.
yeah, they are evil, like how loving somebody for a reason other than making babies is evil, and like how seeing a boob is evil, how education is evil, and how eating shellfish is evil...

anybody else find themselves wondering if this issue is really just a language problem? maybe "evil" means "healthy, good, or fun" in the language these people speak.

An abortifacient is an agent (as a drug) that induces or causes abortion. These abortion-causing chemicals and devices kill babies in the first few days of their lives. The Pill, the Mini-Pill, Depo-Provera, Norplant, the "morning after pill" (emergency contraception)

None of these are capable of produceing an abortion.

An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. If you're pregnant, the pill, morning after pill, depo prova will not do anything but fuck with the hormones the embryo is getting. It won't induce an abortion.

These things prevent fertilization and implantation. Pregnancy does not begin until implantation, thus no pregnancies are teriminated with any of these drugs.

The truth is that these drugs also alter the lining of the womb so that the newly conceived child cannot attach himself or herself to the wall of the uterus or womb. If a baby cannot implant in the lining of the womb to receive nourishment, he or she dies.

1. A zygote is not a baby.
2. More than 50% of fertilized ovum don't attach themselves anyways.
3. The truth of the matter is that this does not constitute an abortion.

Other abortifacients, RU-486 and methotrexate break down and destroy the baby's surroundings after he or she has implanted in the mother's womb, taking away the baby's nourishment and the hormone (progesterone) that the baby requires for growth and development. Once the little boy or girl is dead, a second chemical causes contractions and the dead baby is pushed out of the mother's womb.

Now these are abortion pills.

Birth control kills.
No, it does not.

RU-486 is not the morning after pill, it is the abortion pill, as many call it. That is the only thing Commando was right about in his post. I think women should be allowed to take it, i am pro-choice, i just wanted to point out the difference. Like a surgical abortion, it destroys a fetus once a woman is already pregnant. There is a morning after pill, but it is not RU-486, they are different.

Rereference the first post - it mentions, the Pill, Depro, IUD's etc - pretty much any form of birth control but the condom and all the most effective forms that a female can use without male cooperation.


Edit: To Rangerville: I misread what you said. Sorry. But the fact of what Commando is against still stands

RU-486 is not the morning after pill, it is the abortion pill, as many call it. That is the only thing Commando was right about in his post. I think women should be allowed to take it, i am pro-choice, i just wanted to point out the difference. Like a surgical abortion, it destroys a fetus once a woman is already pregnant. There is a morning after pill, but it is not RU-486, they are different.
Of course, with RU-486, it is important for women to take this under strict doctor supervision. Often the embyro does not expel itself and remains in the uterus to rot, causing an infection. A visit to the doctor should be required to make sure the product of conception has been expelled.

Women need to stop being such sluts!

And the men who fuck them are just perfectly alright?

You are also aware, I hope, of the numbers of married women who seek abortions, correct?

Killing something is killing something. whether it's a human or a hippo or a single cell. if it's organic, or has the potential for life, and you terminate that, then you've killed something. you've murdered.

Is your head itchy!

Goodness! You just massacred thousands of scalp cells when you scratched your head!

And really, unless you're vegetarian, you have no right to make this particular argument. Hell, you actually have to be a fruitinitarian really. Plants are life too.

Now I, personally, don't favour abortion or birth control. Not because I think that all life is "precious".... but because I know that all life is meaningless. Your life is not more valuable than a rape victim's fetus, or some slut's sputum. The Pope's life has exactly as much purpose and significance as the bacteria on his anus--that is, none. The use of abortion and birth control is arrogant, and almost always hypocritical. All morality is realitve, so any attempt within a convention of society or even a personal opinion to draw a line between the right to life and the right above life has no grounding and it will only cause problems. because it's all fictional.
How is preventing conception immoral?

Women need to stop being so slutty!

Men need to stop being such whores who pressure women into unprotected sex or promise "I'll pull out"

Yes, of course. As with anything like that, a woman should have supervision from her doctor if she chooses to use it.

I did read the first post and i know that Commando tried to lump RU-486 in with birth control, which is misinformed, because it is different from birth control. Stating that it is the morning after pill, or a form of it, is also misinformed though. When i said Commando was right, i simply meant that he was right when he said RU-486 causes abortions, because it does. None of those other things he mentions do though.

Yes, of course. As with anything like that, a woman should have supervision from her doctor if she chooses to use it.

I did read the first post and i know that Commando tried to lump RU-486 in with birth control, which is misinformed, because it is different from birth control. Stating that it is the morning after pill, or a form of it, is also misinformed though. When i said Commando was right, i simply meant that he was right when he said RU-486 causes abortions, because it does. None of those other things he mentions do though.

Yeah, I edited but i guess not before you saw it. Sorry about misreading your post.

Birth Control and abortifacients are not completely the same. Yes, abrotifacients are Birth Control, but Birth Control also includes the pill, condoms and pulling out early. So.. next time label your thread better! Yar!

As for whether or not abortion itself is good, industrialized western nations/states that have abortion either outlawed or have it very difficult to attain have serious problems with poverty, education [or the lack thereof] and violence... like the entire state of Mississippi, for example.

Difficult to say what's "good" and "bad."

I think the person who made the thread was under the impression that we were unaware of the second mode of action of hormonal birth control.

Well I certainly wasn't, and I'm on the pill. W00t, lets go kill some babies! *pops pill*

Edit: While we're on the topic of killing "babies" does everyone know about the Yuzpe method? It's a way (albeit with lowish effectiveness) of using the OCP as a morning after type pill.

Yeah! Because everyone knows that women really reproduce by asexual cell division just like amoeba do and due to the super-secret feminist conspiracy to overthrow the world- purposely time that cell division so that it happens after heterosexual sex so that they can sue men for child-support :headbang:

Seeing as how I've never been a woman, I obviously am not wise to the Rad-Fem's disgusting secrets. However! You mentioned heterosex and suing men for child support. which brings up the interesting point i had implied, and now i see i should have stated in my original post..

It's naturally the man's job to chase the woman, and it's the woman's job to look good enough to chase, as well as decide for who, how long, and for what reward she will let herself be caught. It worries me that a sex obsessed media and culture could override a fundamental part of a person's psychology like that. that's basically all i wanted to get accross in the whole post

If women had self respect and were educated, then I think the problem would be solved. There's no stopping men from being men. Becuase what makes a man, a man, is the need to spread ya seed. In other words the cock takes precedence, and that's pretty much the end of the argument

if it was truly a man's fantasy world, there would be an endless population of petite, young, healthy, fertile females to impregnate, that were completely willing,lacking any self respect or concern. One after the other, fucking from the most attractive on down the most barely acceptable while squinting your eyes, all the way to the point of exhaustion, and most likely blacking out or drowning in your own romantic chemicals.

And that is what I see us coming to. And even though I'm a man, the person in me (in my opinion, men and women are extremely similar in terms of what each person is like. (Men have nipples, women have a clitoris, we're really not all that separate). but that when sex is brought up is the only time it's necessary to be one gender or the other, otherwise we can drop the feminine or masculine egos and just be equal people.) still sees that it is wrong, and will cause so many problems in the world for us all. The overpopulation, the atrophy, the complacency... it would be death to the species, maybe the planet

So ya see, when I say "Women need to stop being so goddamn slutty" (and I did fail to say this outright for some reason, must be my big male ego) the point i'm actually trying to get accross is that they need to stop submissing to the sick depraved fantasies of men. They should be their own person, respect their minds and their bodies by being a little more cautious and selective about who they let themselves be naked and vulnerable with. Maybe, just consier, for 5 or 10 minutes, about who they're going to be exchanging fluids with. Fluids MEANT to create a baby. Just because the times and attitudes have changed, doesn't mean biology has somehow reformed along with it. We still need to accept what we're made of, and the purposes of the functions we have

sex isn't the only problem either. People in america and other places have become so apathetic that they'll literally put any infected, feces laden, poison-processed "food" into their mouths and expect that because it's the current available food that they're told to eat, that the systems of their body will just assume the same thing, and change,

but it's not the case.... so then you have the shits like a muthafucker!

anyhoo

My point, to sum it up, was just that you can't be yourself and know the best for you, if you let yourself be an appliance for someone else. Whether you're a device for sexual fantasy, for social manipulation, an instrument for politics, culture, corporation, etc.

In other words: Don't be a tool.

thanks for the response to my post! much appreciated

take care

~mr popular

Np Violets and Kittens, i'm sorry i didn't notice your corrections.