NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, kind of. It allowed me to put B.Ed after my name, and means I get paid more than I ever did working in bars. But in terms of educational value, I was really, really disappointed by University. I thought I was going to meet all these really cool people who had strong opinions about things that mattered...instead I found in my first couple of years that it was just an extension of high school. The profs varied so much in teaching ability...some were great, and some were intelligible. Mostly you were on your own, and really, you could learn any of that stuff on your own. Too expensive, and really all you are buying is that piece of paper at the end of it saying you are somehow competent in whatever field you studied. Later on, lots of talk and no action...I dropped out of student politics to get some real work done on political issues...if I had to listen to another argument between the Marxist-Leninists, the Trots and the Anarchists, I would have done someone serious harm.

Anyone currently attending post-secondary? Anyone planning? Anyone out? What are your expectations or experiences?

Still tinkering with my bachelor.

Still tinkering with my bachelor.
Now that's a dumb idea.

I graduated with a degree in English Literature. Oh, what a mistake that was.
And university was a waste of money. All that crap about "teaching you to think" is crap. You either already know how, or you don't - it can't be taught.

Ended up in the Army - got out with some money and went to law school.

Being a lawyer is cool. Even if I screw up, I still get paid.

I dropped out of student politics to get some real work done on political issues...if I had to listen to another argument between the Marxist-Leninists, the Trots and the Anarchists, I would have done someone serious harm.

Wow. I'd kill for some arguing in my politics classes. Nearly everyone agrees with eachother. It sucks.

Although, I do agree with you on your other points...i'll see what this year is like.

University only serves two real purposes (beyond the B* you get to put at the end of your name and demand more money).

1. It teaches you that you do not know as much as you thought you did when you left High-School. You are not as all-knowing as you imagine.

2. It teaches you that professors (and vicariously everyone else) generally know just as little.

Now that's a dumb idea.

I graduated with a degree in English Literature. Oh, what a mistake that was.
And university was a waste of money. All that crap about "teaching you to think" is crap. You either already know how, or you don't - it can't be taught.

Ended up in the Army - got out with some money and went to law school.

Being a lawyer is cool. Even if I screw up, I still get paid.
Whats a dumb idea? Trying to finish my bachelor?

Now that's a dumb idea.

I graduated with a degree in English Literature. Oh, what a mistake that was.
And university was a waste of money. All that crap about "teaching you to think" is crap. You either already know how, or you don't - it can't be taught.

Ended up in the Army - got out with some money and went to law school.

Being a lawyer is cool. Even if I screw up, I still get paid.

How is a bachelor's a dumb idea? You don't go to law school without an undergrad degree. And it's sort of irrelevant what your BA or BS is in, so long as you do well and rock your LSATs.

If you know you're going to be chasing a professional degree that doesn't require specific preparation, why not have fun and do something you like in undergrad?

You might say university was a waste of money, but without it, you wouldn't have gone on to be a cool lawyer.

Whats a dumb idea? Trying to finish my bachelor?

No, but finish it quickly. Otherwise you're wasting your life.

I find it interesting - my personal political opinions mean I get involved in class debates a lot and I have undoubtedly got the coolest library on the planet (3 book cases on nuclear strategy....drool....). The thing that really gets me is the requirement to do all work in reference to other works, which just seems stupid - sure, support your arguments, but it just makes academia so bloody derivative and unoriginal.

Some say it's worth going to uni just for the experience. New people, cheap drinks, experience of self regulation sort of thing.

Wow. I'd kill for some arguing in my politics classes. Nearly everyone agrees with eachother. It sucks.

Although, I do agree with you on your other points...i'll see what this year is like.
I found that the people who should be closest politically (the left spectrum let's say) were the most nitpicky about certain details. The infighting was terrible...just trying to pick a colour for a tuition hike protest sign became a raging battle for Bridget's sake! JUST SHUT UP AND GET OUT THERE!

Plus, who the hell knows what "they want to be when they grow up" just coming out of high school? I went in to University as an English major, then jumped to Anthropology, hated it and started Latin American Studies before finally deciding on Education so I could get the hell out of there. Luckily I did it all within 4 years and managed to take some pretty fun courses...but I was on my way to becoming a professional student. I still know people who, after 10 years at University, are no closer to finishing than they ever were.

You don't learn 'how to think' there...you learn that skipping class is expensive and those that suck up to the profs get the good marks, because with the bell curve, only a few are allowed to excel.

The grad classes were a bit different, but actually easier to BS through.

University only serves two real purposes (beyond the B* you get to put at the end of your name and demand more money).

1. It teaches you that you do not know as much as you thought you did when you left High-School. You are not as all-knowing as you imagine.

2. It teaches you that professors (and vicariously everyone else) generally know just as little.
That's exactly it...I thought I'd meet these really wise people that would show me things I hadn't thought of...philosophy for example...cripes...I thought of all that stuff while I was high in high school...it didn't 'open my mind' any more than too much weed had.

Right now I'm working on a bachelors in biomedical engineering. The people at school are all very smart and I'm a dumbass so I'm learning.

I agree it was an interesting experience...but oh so expensive...I'm still paying off my loans, and looking at going back scares me. Especially since I don't want to go into law to make money (I'd still rather teach), but just to keep myself, and others from getting screwed over.

Have a BSc (Hons) in Criminology. I'm now beginning a PhD - I must be mad, because my BSc was a waste of time and money. It wasn't about Criminology at all, and most (though not all) of the staff teaching on the degree were rubbish.

I would go further and say that there's only one real purpose to university.

1) To get those extra initials that move you up the pay scale.

The other side of it, the Calvino "Why Read the Classics" side, is totally relative. I'd say that I had a good time in both grad and undergrad and that the enviroment was fun and stimulating and an end to itself (I mean the classes and the community, not just the binge drinking and all-nighters and sleep-till-noon freedom, tho' those are hard to knock). But, judging from these posts, there seems to be more disenchantment than satisfaction along these lines. So ultimately, it's just a game in which the stakes are the potential of better employment. Whether you like the game itself isn't related.

I graduated with a degree in English Literature. Oh, what a mistake that was.
And university was a waste of money. All that crap about "teaching you to think" is crap. You either already know how, or you don't - it can't be taught.


University is very much what you, the student make of it. I seriously believe that most people enter university without sufficient preparation. No experience of life, no ability or willingness to question what they are told.

If you are open to learning, then you really can learn to think at university. It is different to secondary education where you have to cram your head full of facts, and no critical distance is allowed. The question is whether someone fresh out of high school is really willing to learn. In most cases they are not, they already think they know it all. This attitude is reinforced by their entering university when others failed.

I think that a compulsory gap, of say three years minimum, between school and university, would seriously improve the experience for most people. Real life has its ways of deflating people's egos.

You can be taught to think. There are many styles and methods of thinking, there are critical techniques that one is unlikely to discover by oneself. There are formal arguments , the understanding of fallacies, the diferentiation between deduction, induction and abduction, which method of reasoning is justified under what circumstances. etc. It may well be that many courses do not touch on this. But that is another matter.

Most people would be better off with the Five-Minute University

I think it boils down to the way we approach University in the West. We think we should go so that we can find a job we'll really, really enjoy. So we go into the Faculty of Arts, and study obscure sh*t that will never make us employable, while our 'dumber' friends do apprenticeships and make more money their first year than we will after our Master's Degree. I could care less if I 'love' my job...I don't plan on living my life at work. I want a job that pays well, doesn't wear me out too much, and gives me time to live my life with my family and friends.

Kids from other cultures know this...or their parents do anyway. Asian kids go into medicine or engineering (stereotype warning...sorry) or pharmacy...so do a lot of Arab or East Indian kids. They study hard, get a useful degree in a job they may not love, but that pays them well so they can enjoy the rest of their non-working hours to the fullest. What the hell can you use a degree in Chaucer for? You have to hope you can be a professor. Most people feel trapped and just keep taking classes...into a Masters, a PhD...hoping at the end of their $100,000 debt that they'll 'love' their job.

I think that a compulsory gap, of say three years minimum, between school and university, would seriously improve the experience for most people. Real life has its ways of deflating people's egos.


I wish I would have waited a while. For sure. If I go back now, it will be with a totally different perspective because my goals are clear, and I'm over the social issues. It would be much more about learning and extending my skills.

Have a BSc (Hons) in Criminology. I'm now beginning a PhD - I must be mad, because my BSc was a waste of time and money. It wasn't about Criminology at all, and most (though not all) of the staff teaching on the degree were rubbish.

I have always wonderd about subjects like Criminology. The only time I ever hear them mentioned is when the sports commentators start talking about the degree courses of the Defensive Tackle for some college team etc.

Sorry if this is insulting, it is not meant to be, but they always come over as being mickey mouse degrees set up to allow brainless gorillas to play for the college.

If you are open to learning, then you really can learn to think at university. It is different to secondary education where you have to cram your head full of facts, and no critical distance is allowed. The question is whether someone fresh out of high school is really willing to learn.
I agree in theory. Unfortunately on my undergraduate course, if you didn't say what the majority of the lecturers told you to say, you were screwed. Buzz-words, PC theories and no independent thought in? Have a first! Look at all sides of the argument, write intelligently but leave the buzzwords out? Um, a 2.2 perhaps.

This is one of the things about which I am most bitter - University is supposed to be about gaining knowledge and developing independent thought, but for the most part this was not the case for me. I had to train myself to tell them what they wanted to hear in order to do well, but feel I cheated myself - and the real meanings of higher education - in doing so.

I found that the people who should be closest politically (the left spectrum let's say) were the most nitpicky about certain details. The infighting was terrible...just trying to pick a colour for a tuition hike protest sign became a raging battle for Bridget's sake! JUST SHUT UP AND GET OUT THERE!

Haha!

Well, I think the reason that there wasn't so much of it is because throughout last year, we didn't have anyone clarify what they really labeled themselves. We just focused on discussing issues, and found that we agreed. I'm sure if I told everyone what my real beliefs were, i'd run into plenty of disagreement, despite previously having found common ground with them.

Although outside my classes, there is a certain Trot group that organised protests about fee increases and the like, and drew quite a crowd. They managed to get a few people onto the student council, which was interesting. I know most of them, and they know me, but i'm a little dubious of them (authoritarians?), so I see what you mean.

Plus, who the hell knows what "they want to be when they grow up" just coming out of high school?

Precisely, I jumped into an Arts degree because the idea of sitting at home and doing nothing didn't appeal to me all that much. I'm not sure it'll lead anywhere, though.

You don't learn 'how to think' there...you learn that skipping class is expensive and those that suck up to the profs get the good marks, because with the bell curve, only a few are allowed to excel.


Hmm, i've noticed the opposite. I skipped most of my Journalism classes, and managed to ace it with a high distinction result. I got lower marks in my other classes, despite going to all of my lectures and classes. Also, i've noticed that the butt-kisser students seem to get poor marks more often than not, and many of them have dropped out already.

I have always wonderd about subjects like Criminology. The only time I ever hear them mentioned is when the sports commentators start talking about the degree courses of the Defensive Tackle for some college team etc.

Sorry if this is insulting, it is not meant to be, but they always come over as being mickey mouse degrees set up to allow brainless gorillas to play for the college.
Well, from my experience, I quite agree! Well, I think in this case the course was set up to keep more bums on seats and off the dole, and played on the popularity of dramas like Cracker and CSI. I had always wanted to be a criminal psychologist, and erroneously believed that Criminology was the same thing. While I believe that our university got the subject matter wrong anyway, I was wrong to believe that even the places that teach 'proper' Criminology were going to teach criminal psychology. I should have done better research, I admit that, and now wish I'd gone to study pure Psychology or Politics - I've ended up back with the latter, so should have just cut out the bullshit and done it in the first place lol.

Most of my education was a waste of time. I knew everything already except for some useless obscure junk about water quality testing. I'd like to go to college, as it would enable me to actually get paid for doing something interesting if I ever got a degree, but failing all four years of high school kind of keeps one out of college, as does having no circadian rhythm.

I've effectively been to four universities (well, three of them were colleges of the University of London, but it amounts to the same thing), so I hope they weren't a waste of time.

At the first one, I had an absolute ball and very properly got kicked out with no degree, but then I had a lot of growing up to do after school, so no complaints. The other three were harder work, but still interesting and/or fun by turns and they gave me the professional qualifications I need for my job, so that's all good.

I guess I got lucky with my lecturers, they were mostly pretty good - some very good indeed.

This is one of the things about which I am most bitter - University is supposed to be about gaining knowledge and developing independent thought, but for the most part this was not the case for me. I had to train myself to telling them what they wanted to hear in order to do well, but feel I cheated myself - and the real meanings of higher education - in doing so.
Absolutely...as long as you knew the right answers, whether you actually believed them or not was irrelevant. With the bell curve (not all Universities use this, but many do), a certain amount of people have to fail, do average, and very few can do really well. It's a numbers thing...so even if you excell, you might not make the cut. The marking is very artificial, and depending on your prof, could be like night and day to the same class taught by another prof. No standards. These profs don't have to know how to teach, they just have to be 'experts' in their fields.

Hmm, i've noticed the opposite. I skipped most of my Journalism classes, and managed to ace it with a high distinction result. I got lower marks in my other classes, despite going to all of my lectures and classes. Also, i've noticed that the butt-kisser students seem to get poor marks more often than not, and many of them have dropped out already.
I mean expensive as in if you factor in the price you're paying for tuition and divide it by the number of classes you have, you get a scary figure. When you skip, you pay that figure anyway......

By butt kisser...well, they can't be the blatant type...but the ones who take the time to 'get to know the prof' can get away with murder...I'll admit I did it a couple of times to get extensions...my god they'll give you an extra six months on an assignment if you have a plausible reason...

I guess my biggest complaint is the idea of 'Higher Education' being anything but an extension of the same (I'm sorry, I have to use this word) propaganda they feed you all through school. The things I have learned, that really moved me, that really blew my mind's doors open were learned on my own, or with others outside of formal education. We lie about our purpose when we advertise higher education...as others have said, it is not about teaching you to think. You might learn some better practices (research, debate and so on), but you can go through all those years with no better understanding of yourself, or the world, than you had before. All the really important things taught in informal situations...

Then again, I'm not sure I'd want to change that...

I guess I feel torn, because I encourage kids all the time to go to University, but I don't think I'm preparing them for life that way.

I mean expensive as in if you factor in the price you're paying for tuition and divide it by the number of classes you have, you get a scary figure. When you skip, you pay that figure anyway......

True. But I view it a different way, i'm only paying for the piece of paper at the end of it all. If I don't need the classes, it doesn't really matter. (We're actually allowed to sit in on whatever lecture we want, provided that we're currently a student...so anything that I don't need to go to can be made up with something I find interesting but am not enrolled in)

By butt kisser...well, they can't be the blatant type...but the ones who take the time to 'get to know the prof' can get away with murder...I'll admit I did it a couple of times to get extensions...my god they'll give you an extra six months on an assignment if you have a plausible reason...

Well, true. I made liberal use of extensions once I found out how easy they are to get...but I wouldn't say I was butt-kissing :) "I'm having a little trouble finishing my essay. Can I have an extension for say-" "Sure! How long would you like? Another week?" "Well, I was only thinking 2 days, but okay then..." :D

There's two things you get from Uni:

- An education: My course (Engineering) I can't teach myself no matter how many books I read. I need to interface with experts and equipment to actually understand it, and this is what Universities provide. They're not schools - they're research institutions that offer study-only internships to the masses. The staff are scientists and experts of their field, not teachers. The teaching you're supposed to do yourself.
You also get a network of friends and colleagues that you need professionally later on and provide support now.

- A great time. My Uni days are the best of my life so far. It's a bridge between the sheltered life at home and the savage real world, lowering you in slowly. And having a hell of a time while you're doing it. So, while you might argue University is a waste of money, it can hardly be called a waste of time.

Where I am, my Governments and the Union pays for most of my education, so, if I learn nothing, it's not my money I'm wasting.

Don't get me started on law school. You take the LSAT to get in, and it has nothing to do with what you'll cover in law school. Then you go to law school, ostensibly to prepare for the bar exam, but you find out that it does nothing of the sort, so you go to other prep courses (to make sure you didn't waste the three years in law school which you actually wasted) so you can pass the bar. While reading through the questions, you note that there is NOTHING on the test that you learned in law school.

I regret going to school. When I started, I was faced with a choice - I had scraped and saved up a meagre amount of money which I could use either to fulfill the dream that others wanted me to live (University) or the dream I wanted to live (travel). Being poor, and of a poor upbringing, I could only afford to make one of the two choices. At the behest of my family and many of my friends, I chose University, and a program which interested me.

Having eight full credit courses a term, it quickly took up all of my time - I started at seven in the morning and often times was there until midnight. For three years, I worked away my life, hour by hour, between the school and the several jobs I had to take to afford both it and the cost of supporting myself. Among other reasons (some of which I will not get into) I lost those three years of my life to that horrible vice, there was no time for living nor for family and friends.

I want that time back. It was a poor investment at the time to have gone to school. I now have three more years of debt to pay off - and have lost three years of my life that I will never get back. My suggestion is that though education is a good thing - there are other roads a person need to travel before walking that path. Take your time, make sure you are chasing your dreams, and not someone elses.

;)

There's two things you get from Uni:

- An education: My course (Engineering) I can't teach myself no matter how many books I read. I need to interface with experts and equipment to actually understand it, and this is what Universities provide. They're not schools - they're research institutions that offer study-only internships to the masses. The staff are scientists and experts of their field, not teachers. The teaching you're supposed to do yourself.
You also get a network of friends and colleagues that you need professionally later on and provide support now.

- A great time. My Uni days are the best of my life so far. It's a bridge between the sheltered life at home and the savage real world, lowering you in slowly. And having a hell of a time while you're doing it. So, while you might argue University is a waste of money, it can hardly be called a waste of time.

Nicely put.

English Major going in to Genre Fiction in a somewhat conservative school...

So. Yeah. Most of my classes are a waste, and ALL of them BAN me from making use of my genres (Mostly fantasy, but I would love a little sci-fi too...).

Unfortunately, in many schools, English means "Teaching Credential", "Poetry" or "Literature"

While I do love Huck Finn, the whole slavery issue isn't new to me. It's not going to help me write about people fighting monsters.

It's all about getting those little letters on my resume`.

- A great time. My Uni days are the best of my life so far. It's a bridge between the sheltered life at home and the savage real world, lowering you in slowly.
That's assuming you've had a sheltered home life....


Where I am, my Governments and the Union pays for most of my education, so, if I learn nothing, it's not my money I'm wasting.
Can I come live with you?

I agree in theory. Unfortunately on my undergraduate course, if you didn't say what the majority of the lecturers told you to say, you were screwed. Buzz-words, PC theories and no independent thought in? Have a first! Look at all sides of the argument, write intelligently but leave the buzzwords out? Um, a 2.2 perhaps.

This is one of the things about which I am most bitter - University is supposed to be about gaining knowledge and developing independent thought, but for the most part this was not the case for me. I had to train myself to tell them what they wanted to hear in order to do well, but feel I cheated myself - and the real meanings of higher education - in doing so.

I suppose I was just stubborn. I got a 2.2, but I also got an education, and an invitation to work for the university while I undertook a masters. A little hypocritical on their part. I could have got a first I suppose, but I was not interested in playing the parrot game.
This does not mean I did anything better or worse than you did, we simply chose different paths.

Oddly, the place where I was most encouraged to use my own personal initiative, learned to work in small teams, and learned leadership skills was the Army.

There's not a lot of room for personal initiative in university. Take my example of English Literture as a major.

Pick any 3rd or 4th year Lit class.

You get to pick the class (let's say it's on Strindberg). Ok, since you can't read all of his work in one semester, the prof (not you) picks the works.
The prof dictates in the lectures what you're supposed to think about the work of Strindberg.

And if you disagree in your papers, or in the essays you write for the test, you will get a bad grade, no matter how cogent your argument.

The only classes I took where argument was permitted were philosophy classes. If you could argue intelligently, you could get a good grade.

I'm having fun in University, so easy.
Double Majoring in Linguistics and History means 2 things;
1) I learn something new (Lingustics)
2) I get free credits on stuff I already know (History)

I don't care if it's a waste of time and cash, at least it's fun.

Oh, and of course we pay so much to go to university just to get a piece of paper in 4 years that says we can make stuff up.

2) I get free credits on stuff I already know (History)


And that would be the second reason why i'm doing an Arts degree :p

Oh, and of course we pay so much to go to university just to get a piece of paper in 4 years that says we can make stuff up.

You only get to make stuff up if you have the letters PhD after your name. Until then they can ask you to prove it. You've been conned somewhere.

You only get to make stuff up if you have the letters PhD after your name. Until then they can ask you to prove it. You've been conned somewhere.

It's okay if you make something up and twist the words of someone with a PhD to support your argument, though. :D

It sounds like most of you attended a really bad college. My experience in university was excellent. Yes, there were people who focused on drinking, sex, and parties, but most of them ended up dropping out and as long as you didnt hang out with them, they didnt affect your life. It wasnt like high school where those people were looked at as somehow superior. In college, I encountered many deep thinkers. I remember many nights spent discussing the nuances of physics, the imperfection of mathematics (something new to students led to believe throughout high school that mathematics is perfect), and above all, history, politics, and philosophy. There is nothing more intellectually stimulating than to have intellectual discussions with others competent enough to hold such discussions. Professors ranged from the terrible to the great. The best professors challenged you, they pushed your buttons and forced you to defend your point of view. They taught you to think critically, to use logic, to see things from the other perspective. They challenged you whenever you made a logical mistake. They taught you, not to see things as they see it (for they would never reveal how they truly feel about a subject), but to defend your point of view. I am very happy with my college education, and I feel that alot of you probably chose institutions that were simply bad.

PS. I did attend the equivalent of an Ivy league college. It is possible my point of view only reflects the most selective of institutions.

Wow. I'd kill for some arguing in my politics classes. Nearly everyone agrees with eachother. It sucks.

Although, I do agree with you on your other points...i'll see what this year is like.
everyone in my politics seminars are too timid to say anything... damn first-years...
so i'm usually the only one who ends up debating things with maybe a couple of other students and the tutor. oh well, it may be a waste of money but it sure as hell beats working a 9 to 5 job :D

It sounds like most of you attended a really bad college. My experience in university was excellent. Yes, there were people who focused on drinking, sex, and parties, but most of them ended up dropping out and as long as you didnt hang out with them, they didnt affect your life. It wasnt like high school where those people were looked at as somehow superior. In college, I encountered many deep thinkers. I remember many nights spent discussing the nuances of physics, the imperfection of mathematics (something new to students led to believe throughout high school that mathematics is perfect), and above all, history, politics, and philosophy. There is nothing more intellectually stimulating than to have intellectual discussions with others competent enough to hold such discussions. Professors ranged from the terrible to the great. The best professors challenged you, they pushed your buttons and forced you to defend your point of view. They taught you to think critically, to use logic, to see things from the other perspective. They challenged you whenever you made a logical mistake. They taught you, not to see things as they see it (for they would never reveal how they truly feel about a subject), but to defend your point of view. I am very happy with my college education, and I feel that alot of you probably chose institutions that were simply bad.

PS. I did attend the equivalent of an Ivy league college. It is possible my point of view only reflects the most selective of institutions.
damn, my uni experience so far is not anywhere near as cool as that. i'd love to debate all manner things with other students, like you describe, but there's simply nobody i know who actually enjoys doing that sort of thing. a mate of mine last year did and we debated things in the pub for hours - but it bored the shit out of everyone else and they just laughed at us, so we stopped and i haven't seen him in months. my flatmate and i do regularly argue about hot topics in the news, politics and sometimes philosophy, but - while i enjoy the chance to debate - i so often pre-empt his arguements it makes holding a decent debate almost impossible, and they often peter out within minutes. if i choose to go along with his pace and arguements, i get bored. :( plus, neither of us are quite sure whether the other is being serious or not :confused:

Anyone currently attending post-secondary? Anyone planning? Anyone out? What are your expectations or experiences?

I'm planning on studying history at uni. Then I want to take the CPE and BVC, then a pupillage with the aim of becoming a barrister and eventually a QC. In terms of my uni experience, I expect it to be challenging, to experience more independance, have the opportunity to debate historical controversy with people who care about it and know what they're talking about, work and have a laugh too. I don't expect it to be perfect, but I know that it's necessary for what I want to do.

Oddly, the place where I was most encouraged to use my own personal initiative, learned to work in small teams, and learned leadership skills was the Army.

There's not a lot of room for personal initiative in university. Take my example of English Literture as a major.

You claim that people can't be taught to think, they either can or can't, then you say that you learned initiative in the Army but not in university?

I'd counter by saying that people with initiative take the initiative, they don't wait until "there's room." So you didn't break any new ground in your Strindberg class. That's not the fault of the university. That's just you not breaking new ground. When I was in undergrad I did an honors thesis on unpublished Hemingway drafts. I had to travel to research libraries and dig in archives. Because the drafts hadn't seen the light of day in fifty years, there weren't any profs riding me about what to think because there wasn't a body of critical work out there yet. Yeah, we'd talk about the materials, but it was back and forth, not empty repetition.

University doesn't stifle initiative. That's in the hands of the individual.

It's okay if you make something up and twist the words of someone with a PhD to support your argument, though. :D

You have just produced the best definition of academic work that I have ever seen. My hero for life.

You have just produced the best definition of academic work that I have ever seen. My hero for life.

*bows* :D

oh well, it may be a waste of money but it sure as hell beats working a 9 to 5 job

True. :p

You only get to make stuff up if you have the letters PhD after your name. Until then they can ask you to prove it. You've been conned somewhere.


You've obviously never heard of an engineering degree.

Wif I had to listen to another argument between the Marxist-Leninists, the Trots and the Anarchists, I would have done someone serious harm.


That would be quite interesting.

Our student politics is really just like a microcosm of the country, if slightly more authoritarian.

We have an election thingy on Monday (I think) and am being pressured to vote. Yet everyone is just the same, fucking pointless, just lets some people feel important.

Me and some freinds were thinking of setting up a Anarchy party (using the slogan "Ain't no government like no government"*), not that they are anarchists. They just think it'll be fun.



*Which I think I first saw used by BWO

You've obviously never heard of an engineering degree.

Engineering is real life stuff, not academic stuff. Academic stuff makes no difference to anyone ever anywhere.

Hence the phrase, "It doesn't matter, it was completely academic anyway"

Engineering is real life stuff, not academic stuff. Academic stuff makes no difference to anyone ever anywhere.

Hence the phrase, "It doesn't matter, it was completely academic anyway"


Still, an engineering degree is aquired via university, and engineers make stuff up. Thus, you go to university to get a piece of paper that says you can make stuff up.

And academic stuff does make a difference to people, the acedemic people.

I'm at Uni
I decided to go to Uni so i'd earn more money afterwards, as most people do.

I'm not disapointed because i had cynical motives, i dont massively care how muuch i learn (altho i'm starting to get really interested in my course - a nice plus).

No, but finish it quickly. Otherwise you're wasting your life.
In what way?

University teaches you a profession. How can it be boring?

I'm going to college next academic year and I'm looking forward to it. And if the people there don't have any strong opinions (which I'm sure they will anyways) I'll just force them too by being very offensive - make them defend something they like however marginally and you generally push them towards one side of the argument.

if you don't think University can teach you anything, you need to go to a better school or pick a better major.

my classes were tough, my profs were (on average) smart enough to not let me get away with a damn thing, and my degrees are already making me money. plus my University experience got me into grad school, where i get free tuition and pull down 21K (after taxes) for about 25 hours of school each week. i get paid to learn stuff i would pay to learn...life don't get much better, in my opinion.

I'm going to college next academic year and I'm looking forward to it. And if the people there don't have any strong opinions (which I'm sure they will anyways) I'll just force them too by being very offensive - make them defend something they like however marginally and you generally push them towards one side of the argument.
Or they'll push your head in a toilet bowl.

I've learned a lot of things in college that I don't think most people could learn on their own.

If you ask me, you get out of it about as much as you put into it.

Or they'll push your head in a toilet bowl.
hon, it's college, not Junior High.

I'm going to college next academic year and I'm looking forward to it. And if the people there don't have any strong opinions (which I'm sure they will anyways) I'll just force them too by being very offensive - make them defend something they like however marginally and you generally push them towards one side of the argument.

Or you'll just irritate them. I've met people who do this and it just makes me not want to share whatever strong opinions I have.

I'm working towards a degree in honours physics right now.

I'm learning a lot. I would learn more if I had time to absorb all the information, I think.

And you're right about the variety of teaching ability. I've had some excellent professors and some that were absolutely terrible. You can tell the ones who are in it solely for the research. However, there are some who are obviously more into the research than the teaching who are nonetheless excellent teachers.

I've also had profs who seemed to think they were too good to be teaching... those are the ones who end up on probation...

I would also like to point out that university is more about what you learn outside of class.

It's almost like a dry run for the real world. Especially if you leave your parent's house for your education. It doesn't prepare you exactly perhaps, but you're forced to develop some of the skills you'll need to be an independantly functioning adult.

In college, I encountered many deep thinkers. I remember many nights spent discussing the nuances of physics, the imperfection of mathematics (something new to students led to believe throughout high school that mathematics is perfect), and above all, history, politics, and philosophy.
Hey, I spent a heck of a lot of time (wait, I still do) talking about these things too...but you know where I discuss them? At the bar, at friend's houses...not at University. I don't know what kinds of classes you had, but all mine were the basic lecture style...even in the grad level classes we couldn't waste a lot of time on discussion (no matter how wonderful or meaningful) because the bottom line is, people are paying for that time, and they tend to get pissed by off-track conversations. Also, not all the people who knew a LOT about physics, or philosophy or whatever were post-secondary students...in fact, the most knowledgable people I know never plan on going to post-secondary. My University was not bad, per se...it fulfilled its mandate...to pass on a degree for money, with a minimum of actual critical thinking...just enough to make it a bit above secondary schooling.

University doesn't stifle initiative. That's in the hands of the individual.
Ah...but do you need to PAY for it...you mentioned in your post that you did a thesis on unpublished Hemingway papers...sounds awesome by the way....but could you not have done that on your own anyway, with some access to the University archives? All I'm saying is, we pay an awful lot for that little piece of paper at the end...and for some people, that paper is useless (I mean, a degree in Soviet Environmental Science????). Why pay for something you can research or study on your own, while you work, and not get into crazy debt? That's what I don't get...we seem to think that going to University will automatically make us more valuable in the workplace, no matter what we study...how many BAs do you know still working in coffee houses or movie theatres? I can introduce you to many.:( Plus, it's going to take them about 15 years to pay off that debt, making the minimum wage that their specialised degree in Ancient Romanian Love Customs.

You've obviously never heard of an engineering degree.
Yeah, I wouldn't want to lump all degrees together...some are more useful than others. But a BA in Underwater Basketweaving, while enjoyable, provides limited employment opportunities. Not that I think University should be a big vocational school...but so bloody expensive...you see my theme here?

University teaches you a profession. How can it be boring?
No, vocational schools train you for a profession. University allows you to study absolutely anything you want, and gives no guarantee that any knowledge you gain will make you employable.

Maybe people really feel like they have to pay for their learning to make it worthwhile....

Yeah, I wouldn't want to lump all degrees together...some are more useful than others. But a BA in Underwater Basketweaving, while enjoyable, provides limited employment opportunities. Not that I think University should be a big vocational school...but so bloody expensive...you see my theme here?

Well, how should the infrastructure, the salaries of the specialist staff, the research facilities, the libraries, the computer networks, and everything else be paid for?

You can pay for it by taxing everyone to provide for the elite, or you can ask for the elite to pay for it themselves. Which seems fairer to you?

I've learned a lot of things in college that I don't think most people could learn on their own.

Name one thing you learned in college that someone with access to the internet, and a public library, couldn't learn on their own for free. One thing.

Name one thing you learned in college that someone with access to the internet, and a public library, couldn't learn on their own for free. One thing.

How to debate.

Name one thing you learned in college that someone with access to the internet, and a public library, couldn't learn on their own for free. One thing.
Multi-variate analysis and multi-level modelling. I could Google for course notes, but I needed a lecturer and a computer lab to work my way through to understanding.

Well, how should the infrastructure, the salaries of the specialist staff, the research facilities, the libraries, the computer networks, and everything else be paid for?

You can pay for it by taxing everyone to provide for the elite, or you can ask for the elite to pay for it themselves. Which seems fairer to you?
A number of countries provide post-secondary education for free. Their economies haven't collapsed.

However, I'm not asking for free tuition really, I'm just thinking about the fact that the most learning, the most meaningful learning I've done has been OUTSIDE University.

How to debate.
Are you serious? You didn't know how to debate until you went to University? I somehow find that hard to believe!

Plenty of people don't learn how to debate effectively, even if they have a University education...do they teach you how to debate in Pharmacy? Yet many people with no formal higher education are able to debate...this is not something limited to the sphere of a post secondary institution.

Multi-variate analysis and multi-level modelling. I could Google for course notes, but I needed a lecturer and a computer lab to work my way through to understanding.
And that's awesome, if that's your learning style...could you NOT also learn this from a text book from a library and some time to really go through the material? Could you not get a computer program to help you with the actual modelling?

What will you use this knowledge for in the future, by the way...I'm not really even sure what it is:). Damn, and I went to University without learning about it! :D

Name one thing you learned in college that someone with access to the internet, and a public library, couldn't learn on their own for free. One thing.
Quantum mechanics.

It's much better having someone who is an expert in the subject explain it to you in a number of ways when you're completely lost. Sure it could be done on one's own, but with no confirmation that they understand and with no way to get another perspective on the subject.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to lump all degrees together...some are more useful than others. But a BA in Underwater Basketweaving, while enjoyable, provides limited employment opportunities. Not that I think University should be a big vocational school...but so bloody expensive...you see my theme here?


As long as you agree that you pay lots of money for university to sit around for four years to get a piece of paper that says you can make stuff up.

Don't misunderstand me...I am in no way anti-education, nor is this a well thought out position on my part, I am simply considering myself to be let's say, unsatisfied with the model of learning presented in most post secondary institutions.

A number of countries provide post-secondary education for free. Their economies haven't collapsed.

However, I'm not asking for free tuition really, I'm just thinking about the fact that the most learning, the most meaningful learning I've done has been OUTSIDE University.

You know nothing is for free. Someone is paying for the university education in Germany. Who? The entire German population of course. Including the coffee bar attendants, the toilet cleaners etc. who have had no benefit from the system at all.

Of course most of your learning has been outside of university, but look at the environment you live and work in. You are a teacher, you mix with other professionals who have a liberal education. Not everyone would have this if they did not go to university.

I worked for 12 years before going to Uni. In that time I learnt many things, but I also could have learnt many degrees of bigotry and prejudice had I come from a less critically aware home background. The quality of what you learn outside of formal education depends upon your peer group. If you are university educated, your peer group tends to be of the same educational level. Discussion over a beer is normally a bit more serious than the latest events in a soap opera, or the best form of potatoes to go with roast pork. If, on the other hand, you stop your education at the end of the secondary level, what type of dsubject is likely to be discussed.
I don't know if Canada has senior proms, but even if it doesn't you can imagine the chit chat in the ladies rest room during the prom. Is that what you really want to hear for the rest of your life?

Credit university with changing your peer group. It almost certainly did, and your life is better for it.

As long as you agree that you pay lots of money for university to sit around for four years to get a piece of paper that says you can make stuff up.
I can agree with that:).

Don't misunderstand me...I am in no way anti-education, nor is this a well thought out position on my part, I am simply considering myself to be let's say, unsatisfied with the model of learning presented in most post secondary institutions.

Lol, I'm in university, and I'm enjoying it. Taking it as far as it will go to (Some day, you will call me Doctor!).
But still, I remain adament in the idea that you only go there to be able to make stuff up.

Credit university with changing your peer group. It almost certainly did, and your life is better for it.
You know who a good portion of my 'peer group' (I use the term loosely, since I tend to hang out with older folks...much like yourself :D ) are? Highschool dropouts. Are they stupid? Uneducated? My god they put me to shame...their learning was influenced by their interests, and it was self-directed and meaningful. A couple of them are tradespeople...you know, blue collar welders and such (who by the way, make more than I do, even with my fancy degree!), but I certainly can't 'outthink' them. I know more about educational theory...and they know more about world history, or physics, or whatever than I. I have a degree, and they have little formal schooling. You see what I mean? It depends on the individual. If University is what you need to get your juices flowing and your mind racing, awesome. But University will not guarantee you wisdom...nothing will. Yet society has less overall respect for those who are not formally educated.

Lol, I'm in university, and I'm enjoying it. Taking it as far as it will go to (Some day, you will call me Doctor!).
But still, I remain adament in the idea that you only go there to be able to make stuff up.

Anyone can make stuff up. What you will achieve is the ability to make stuff up and have other people believe you. This last part is critical, because without it, they will not pay you any money to make stuff up.

Anyone can make stuff up. What you will achieve is the ability to make stuff up and have other people believe you. This last part is critical, because without it, they will not pay you any money to make stuff up.
hmmm...my uncle is a great grifter...maybe he should have a PhD...

And that's awesome, if that's your learning style...could you NOT also learn this from a text book from a library and some time to really go through the material? Could you not get a computer program to help you with the actual modelling?

What will you use this knowledge for in the future, by the way...I'm not really even sure what it is:). Damn, and I went to University without learning about it! :D
Have you ANY idea just how boring statistics text books are? :p I really cannot read them, except as reference material after the learning event. My eyes refuse to fix on the page!

More seriously, I guess, in principle, I could learn the techniques from books and computer tutorials, but it would take an awfully long time without human guidance. They're also effectively 'black box' modelling techniques, too complicated to do without computer processing and software algorithms for the maths, so the learning of what does and does not work involves a large amount of trial and error. Their application is still being learnt so you can't really program a computer with all the answers to potential questions. Left to my own devices, I would probably have ended up with a lot of incorrect conclusions and gaps in my knowledge.

I do use them in my work, yes. Multi-variate techniques are mostly a form of descriptive statistics, largely a sort of 'soft' application of multi-level modelling, which is a development of classical regression analysis. They're used all over the place these days - you may have heard of them in the context of operational research, data mining or things like measuring value added by schools.

By the way Alien, you should tell me to get the hell off the forum...my kids are bored. :p

or things like measuring value added by schools.
hahahhhahaaa...

Anyone can make stuff up. What you will achieve is the ability to make stuff up and have other people believe you. This last part is critical, because without it, they will not pay you any money to make stuff up.


Thus giving you the ability to make stuff up. Since if no one believes you, it doesn't count and you're wasting your time on it.

You know who a good portion of my 'peer group' (I use the term loosely, since I tend to hang out with older folks...much like yourself :D ) are? Highschool dropouts. Are they stupid? Uneducated? My god they put me to shame...their learning was influenced by their interests, and it was self-directed and meaningful. A couple of them are tradespeople...you know, blue collar welders and such (who by the way, make more than I do, even with my fancy degree!), but I certainly can't 'outthink' them. I know more about educational theory...and they know more about world history, or physics, or whatever than I. I have a degree, and they have little formal schooling. You see what I mean? It depends on the individual. If University is what you need to get your juices flowing and your mind racing, awesome. But University will not guarantee you wisdom...nothing will. Yet society has less overall respect for those who are not formally educated.

I think that there is a basic difficulty with the subject you studied anyway. Schools or departments of Education, IMHO, have always been the dwelling places of some of the least competent minds that I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. Closely followed by medical schools, but that is another matter.
University is not just the formal classes and courses. It should be a chance to meet and interact with people from many places, that have many different interests and talents. University does depend upon the individual. But this is because it is up to the individual to take advantage of the opportunities for broadening their scope and range of interests and knowledge. If you go there, attend the class, go get the books from the library, and then go home to study: most of the benefit is lost.

If your peer group did not change then either going to uni did nothing for your life, or you did not want to change your peer group. This could be because you had an exceptional group to start with.

I am not denying the value of the practical knowledge that others, who did not go to university acquire. However you too can acquire this knowledge, they can not just acquire in the same way the knowledge that you now have.

By the way Alien, you should tell me to get the hell off the forum...my kids are bored. :p

Not my job. You will have to be your own conscience. My Kid is asleep. It is 00:24 here.

I think that there is a basic difficulty with the subject you studied anyway. Schools or departments of Education, IMHO, have always been the dwelling places of some of the least competent minds that I have ever had the misfortune to encounter.
Oh God yes...it was like painting and colouring for adults...but that was my last year, just so I could hurry up and get the hell out...a whole year with my brain leaking out my ears...don't let these people near your children....

Well, my own conscience I shall be...have a great night folks!

The problem with too many people these days is they go to University and seem to do a course that is v non specific. I'm at University now doing a BEng.(Hons.)/ MEng. Aeronautical Engineering. This will mean that I am gauranteed a descent job when I leave. Maybe when everyone does the same then university will be usefull but until then please could we not complain about the uselessness of university when you got to uni and do a BA in Physchology!!!

The problem with too many people these days is they go to University and seem to do a course that is v non specific. I'm at University now doing a BEng.(Hons.)/ MEng. Aeronautical Engineering. This will mean that I am gauranteed a descent job when I leave. Maybe when everyone does the same then university will be usefull but until then please could we not complain about the uselessness of university when you got to uni and do a BA in Physchology!!!
Wow...I guess they don't cover English in the BEng program...

By the way, from the title of your post, I assume you have no idea that a BEd is a Bachelor of Education, not a place to sleep. :D