NationStates Jolt Archive

Now for an addition to the 'Most hated world Leader' poll

Sudan

I don't hate any of those countries as countries, or hate the people in general of any of those countries.

I voted Cuba because Castro's regime is in my opinion the most despotic at the moment. 20 years ago I would have voted Russia, but nowadays it's looking a lot better.

nowadays it's looking a lot better.They're more US-friendly.

I should have included North Korea. Oh well..

I should have included North Korea. Oh well..

and Syria

What an ignoramous. You don't even have North Korea on the list.

I hate France purely because of Jacques Chirac. It seems to me that I shouldn't hate an entire nation because of one man, but people voted for him, which I suppose gives me a reason.

USA is a close second for a number of reasons, the list of which is very long.

They're more US-friendly.

I'm English. I couldn't care less about whether a country is US-friendly or not.

Russia is looking better because the standard of living has increased. People aren't slaves any more. People are buying, selling, prospering.

The US naturally.

What an ignoramous. You don't even have North Korea on the list.
Read through the posts. Just vote for others.

I don't hate countries.

I really hate the UK, for what they recently did to Rhodesia, and for the pressure they put on the formerly democratic South Africa to collapse into a communist one-party dictatorship.

Also, I don't think I can ever forgive England for their horribly atrocious conduct during the Boer War.

I have plenty of reasons to hate England, without even touching on their crimes against the American and German people, it is still a massive list.

I mostly hate the English government, I don't hold much against the English people, except that by tolerating their governments, and putting them into power, they enable more atrocities to occur.

I don't hate countries..

.
How about governments?

I don't hate any of those countries as countries, or hate the people in general of any of those countries.

I voted Cuba because Castro's regime is in my opinion the most despotic at the moment. 20 years ago I would have voted Russia, but nowadays it's looking a lot better.

Yeah, Russia is much better since all the stuff in it that's worth anything became owned by about 10 people, Moscow became the city with the most billionaires in the world, and the majority of the population are skint subsisters.

I really hate the UK, for what they recently did to Rhodesia, and for the pressure they put on the formerly democratic South Africa to collapse into a communist one-party dictatorship.

Also, I don't think I can ever forgive England for their horribly atrocious conduct during the Boer War.

I have plenty of reasons to hate England, without even touching on their crimes against the American and German people, it is still a massive list.

I mostly hate the English government, I don't hold much against the English people, except that by tolerating their governments, and putting them into power, they enable more atrocities to occur.

hate away. i think england doesn't mind being hated by someone of your calibre.

I don't hate countries.

Agreed. How do you find it in yourself to hate an entire nation? I can see disagreeing with certain policies or leaders, but hating the whole country?

As I said, I mean the government of the country. Naturally, it's hard to bear a grudge against an entire population.

How about governments?

Computer says nooo.

I don't hate countries.

Nor do I. I only rarely hate people, and then only if they have done something really bad and deserve it.

How about governments?

I dislike conservative, right-wing governments, and violent regimes and religious governments. In my opinion politics and religeon should never be combined. But I try not to hate stuff, judgement does no good.

edit: formatting & typo

Yeah, Russia is much better since all the stuff in it that's worth anything became owned by about 10 people, Moscow became the city with the most billionaires in the world, and the majority of the population are skint subsisters.

Yes, there are now more extremely rich capitalists, but the whole rest of the population no longer have to submit to the will of a tyrannical government which can dish out life and death as it sees fit. Even normal people are opening small businesses - shops, farms, even just street-peddling businesses, but at least they're allowed to keep their earnings.

I really hate the UK, for what they recently did to Rhodesia, and for the pressure they put on the formerly democratic South Africa to collapse into a communist one-party dictatorship.

Also, I don't think I can ever forgive England for their horribly atrocious conduct during the Boer War.

I have plenty of reasons to hate England, without even touching on their crimes against the American and German people, it is still a massive list.

I mostly hate the English government, I don't hold much against the English people, except that by tolerating their governments, and putting them into power, they enable more atrocities to occur.

What is this noob on about?

Can someone please explain what we did to Rhodesia and since when was South Africa a communist dictatorship?

And our crimes against America and Germany? What planet are you on?


Also it don't half piss me off when clueless people keep on calling the UK 'England'.. why do we have to take the rap solely for everything? The UK is made up of 4 countries.

What is this noob on about?

Can someone please explain what we did to Rhodesia and since when was South Africa a communist dictatorship?

And our crimes against America and Germany? What planet are you on?


Also it don't half piss me off when clueless people keep on calling the UK 'England'.. why do we have to take the rap solely for everything? The UK is made up of 4 countries.

You don't have the right to have Scotland, Northern Ireland, or Wales, thus your kingdom ought rightfully only be England.

One day Scotland will be free from the yoke of England and the Anglican church. (And it ought right to be)

Can someone please explain what we did to Rhodesia and since when was South Africa a communist dictatorship?

And our crimes against America and Germany? What planet are you on?




1) Arming ZANU and ZAPU (Zimbabwe anti-government terrorists in Rhodesia)

2) Instigating said terrorists against the Rhodesian people.

3) Conspiring to keep the Rhodesian government in international isolation and unable to obtain the necessary war supplies and unable to bring their goods to market to sell to raise funds.

4) Instigation of coloreds and blacks in South Africa to go from peaceful to vengeful.

5) The Boer War and the first use of concentration camps in history, ever. In which no less than 20,000 Boer women and children perished.

6) The terror bombing of Dresden in WW2 when the war was already basically won, and the city was just a massive center for refugees fleeing from the approaching Russian barbarian armies which had already raped and pillaged their way across Europe.

7) Arming Indians in colonial America and instigating them against Americans.



I could go on all day, with modern examples and examples going back centuries. I think I made my point though, yes?

You don't have the right to have Scotland, Northern Ireland, or Wales, thus your kingdom ought rightfully only be England.

One day Scotland will be free from the yoke of England and the Anglican church. (And it ought right to be)


It's a United Kingdom.. They are not ruled by England, the British parilament is made up of people from all over the UK.

You aren't making any sense what so ever.. Scotland free from the Anglican Chruch? Eh????

Now are you going to explain what we did to Rhodesia and what our crimes against the American and German people were please?

And tell us when South Africa became a communist dicatorship.

I dislike conservative, right-wing governments, and violent regimes and religious governments. In my opinion politics and religeon should never be combined.

So you vote the US? (Religions eat your brains...)

DA, you disappoint me, you realise Israel was on that list right?

4) Instigation of coloreds and blacks in South Africa to go from peaceful to vengeful.

Vengeful? See, wanting to be treated like human beings and not pack animals isn't being vengeful. If non-white South Africans were vengeful, they would have kicked all the whites out when apartheid fell, or repossessed all their assets.

And tell us when South Africa became a communist dicatorship.
For him, left of fascist = communist.

So you vote the US? (Religions eat your brains...)

I didn't vote. If the poll would've asked what countries you disliked, maybe I would've voted for the US. But since I've never been there I don't know if I can form an accurate opinion.

DA, you disappoint me, you realise Israel was on that list right?


Given the choice of Israel and the UK, I really can't say I hate Israel the country, more so the government. I don't dislike the idea of a Jewish homeland, I just want to see folks willing to accept the idea of a white homeland (we used to call it Europe). All groups ought to have their homelands, places to be safe, can you understand and accept this?

The UK is a place I simply detest, the British governments, since the last 100 years or so, have been responsible for killing more whites in the world than anything else. Either directly or indirectly. They claim to be for Western civilization but then they go out and put Boers into camps, or they start a war with the Kaiser and kill Germans. Britain really needs to get her act together and stop destroying the West.

It's a United Kingdom

And tell us when South Africa became a communist dicatorship.


1994

3) Conspiring to keep the Rhodesian government in international isolation and unable to obtain the necessary war supplies and unable to bring their goods to market to sell to raise funds.

Necessary war supplies?


6) The terror bombing of Dresden in WW2 when the war was already basically won, and the city was just a massive center for refugees fleeing from the approaching Russian barbarian armies which had already raped and pillaged their way across Europe.

Rofl.

VoteEarly wouldn't happen to be Scottish, would they? ;)

And tell us when South Africa became a communist dicatorship.

1994

Do you really believe this? why do you believe it? is it because you know absolutely nothing? who told you this? i don't understand.

I didn't vote. If the poll would've asked what countries you disliked, maybe I would've voted for the US. But since I've never been there I don't know if I can form an accurate opinion.

You got a point. I was only joking.

What is this noob on about?
Noob?
Him?
He's been around much longer than I have even, and this is just his latest incarnation.

Vengeful? See, wanting to be treated like human beings and not pack animals isn't being vengeful. If non-white South Africans were vengeful, they would have kicked all the whites out when apartheid fell, or repossessed all their assets.


www.africancrisis.org

How about farm attack them and rape them en masse, and drive many out?

Almost 2 million white South Africans have packed up and left since democracy and security ended in South Africa in 1994.

They're being slowly driven out by a calculated campaign of terror and violence, under the guise of "just rising crime".

1-3 million rapes per year in South Africa (the exact figures will never be known since the gov't there outlawed publishing them, but these are based on international estimates)

Whites are about 12% of the SA population but about 50% of all murder victims.

Imagine if blacks in one given city in the USA were 10% of the population, but 80% of the murder victims, the NAACP and all the rest would be up in arms shouting about "The man".

1) Arming ZANU and ZAPU (Zimbabwe anti-government terrorists in Rhodesia)

2) Instigating said terrorists against the Rhodesian people.

3) Conspiring to keep the Rhodesian government in international isolation and unable to obtain the necessary war supplies and unable to bring their goods to market to sell to raise funds.

4) Instigation of coloreds and blacks in South Africa to go from peaceful to vengeful.

5) The Boer War and the first use of concentration camps in history, ever. In which no less than 20,000 Boer women and children perished.

6) The terror bombing of Dresden in WW2 when the war was already basically won, and the city was just a massive center for refugees fleeing from the approaching Russian barbarian armies which had already raped and pillaged their way across Europe.

7) Arming Indians in colonial America and instigating them against Americans.



I could go on all day, with modern examples and examples going back centuries. I think I made my point though, yes?

Hold on hold on... you are bringing up so called 'atrocities' that range from 50- hundreds of years ago.. why are those events any reason for you to hate the UK now?

And why have you singled out the UK when there are dozens of countries with bloody histories like France, Belgium, Spain, USA.. and dozens of countries with appalling human rights right now.

Now stop spewing ridiculous bullshit about a country you obviously know nothing about.

Which country are you from?

6) The terror bombing of Dresden in WW2 when the war was already basically won, and the city was just a massive center for refugees fleeing from the approaching Russian barbarian armies which had already raped and pillaged their way across Europe.


Those damn barbarians, defending their homeland against Nazi invasion!

Which country are you from?


Where am I from or where am I now?

These are issues of wealth and poverty and a legacy of violence left by years of colonialism. If you want to feel like a poor persecuted white man that's fine, but I can't attempt to argue with you.

Most victims of violent crime in SA are actually black. *shock horror* Yes, black people have a racist vendetta against THEMSELVES!

You're an idiot.

Those damn barbarians, defending their homeland against Nazi invasion!


Stalin had a plan, in 1943 he was going to invade central Europe, it was either attack the USSR in 1941, or lose the chance to do it and have Europe swept up in the tide of communism and tyranny. Although the tyranny Hitler brought wasn't much better, at least it wasn't communism.

the country i feel most passionately about is my own: America.

i have more things i hate about America than about any other country, because i live here and i experience this country and i know so much more about this country. however, there are also more things i love about America than any other country, for exactly the same reasons.

i can't claim to hate any country i haven't lived in, and i've only lived in America. i don't hate America as a whole, but there are things i hate and things i work desperately to change. and, of course, the only reason i feel so strongly about those things is because i care so much about America...if i didn't give a damn, i wouldn't hate a thing.

Whites are about 12% of the SA population but about 50% of all murder victims.

Murder is often motivated by a desire to rob. how much of the property is owned by whites?


Imagine if blacks in one given city in the USA were 10% of the population, but 80% of the murder victims, the NAACP and all the rest would be up in arms shouting about "The man".
And racist morons would be up in arms shouting "see how black people kill each other".

These are issues of wealth and poverty and a legacy of violence left by years of colonialism. If you want to feel like a poor persecuted white man that's fine, but I can't attempt to argue with you.

Most victims of violent crime in SA are actually black. *shock horror* Yes, black people have a racist vendetta against THEMSELVES!

You're an idiot.


Zulu and Xhosa, different tribes in SA who hate each other. They're not the same ethnic group, thus when they kill each other, it is racism and bigotry.

Where am I from or where am I now?


both.

could you please answer my other queries as well.

Murder is often motivated by a desire to rob. how much of the property is owned by whites?


And racist morons would be up in arms shouting "see how black people kill each other".


75% of all farm attacks in South Africa, nothing is taken but the farmer's life and quite often his wife and daughters purity...

I hate my country, and the drink culture that has swept across it. Yep, I'm talking about the UK.

I don't like going outdoors now as there are so many dangerous criminals out and about, and in my town it's out of control. As soon as I can, i'm moving to sweeden.

both.

could you please answer my other queries as well.


I don't really care to tell you. You're a smart boy, aren't you? Take a few guesses.

It was in my old profile, "USA" so it's a good bet I'm currently in the USA. But my new profile doesn't say that, so I'll update.

I hate countries that have their armies spread across the world and pretend that they are the angels who are going to save the world by making it more friendly towards their own country and its urge for further economic dominance. The Neocon concept of imperialism is scary.

But I think I'd hate even more a country where VoteEarly would be president. ;)
<no flame intended, just a fact>

I don't really care to tell you. You're a smart boy, aren't you? Take a few guesses.

You're from South Africa? ah the country that brutally oppressed blacks up until recently.

Seriously you are a moron, and I think you're a racist. You seem to hate the UK for putting pressure on South Africa to end apartheid.

Stalin had a plan, in 1943 he was going to invade central Europe, it was either attack the USSR in 1941, or lose the chance to do it and have Europe swept up in the tide of communism and tyranny. Although the tyranny Hitler brought wasn't much better, at least it wasn't communism.

Communism is from satan himself, right? Why, it must be, otherwise we wouldn't be fighting it?

Zulu and Xhosa, different tribes in SA who hate each other. They're not the same ethnic group, thus when they kill each other, it is racism and bigotry.

Those tensions do NOT fiuel the majority of crime in SA. I spent the first 14 years of my life there. I know what I'm talking about, unlike you.

As for the farm things- I agree with IH in that there's a DESIRE to rob, I mean white people still own the majority of farms. I'm sure that african people feel dispossessed in their own country. I'm not excusing rape or murder, I'm just saying there's more to it than you think.

You got a point. I was only joking.

noes

The UK is a place I simply detest, the British governments, since the last 100 years or so, have been responsible for killing more whites in the world than anything else. Either directly or indirectly. They claim to be for Western civilization but then they go out and put Boers into camps, or they start a war with the Kaiser and kill Germans. Britain really needs to get her act together and stop destroying the West.
Oh sorry, I guess we'll take our uncorrupted democracy and replace it with a facist deictatorship so common in western civilisations. I guess that we'll have to stop defending countries that we have protective alliances with, and halt these constant invasions of white territories. Some people would say that Islamic radicalism is destroying the west, but our country doing it for them?

75% of all farm attacks in South Africa, nothing is taken but the farmer's life and quite often his wife and daughters purity...

i don't think you can give any authoritative sources for this random statement.

Those tensions do NOT fiuel the majority of crime in SA. I spent the first 14 years of my life there. I know what I'm talking about, unlike you.

As for the farm things- I agree with IH in that there's a DESIRE to rob, I mean white people still own the majority of farms. I'm sure that african people feel dispossessed in their own country. I'm not excusing rape or murder, I'm just saying there's more to it than you think.


So they rob people, but in the process, burn them alive, bathe them in acid, "necklace" them with a tire soaked in oil and lit on fire... When you rob somebody, you take their money and leave, you don't skin them alive or butcher them...

And as I said, 75% of farm attacks are solely murder or rape based, there is nothing taken.

And it's not their country to feel dispossessed in, it's the rightful land of the Boer.

it's the rightful land of the Boer.
GRRRRRRRRRR.

Stalin had a plan, in 1943 he was going to invade central Europe, it was either attack the USSR in 1941, or lose the chance to do it and have Europe swept up in the tide of communism and tyranny. Although the tyranny Hitler brought wasn't much better, at least it wasn't communism.

I'm not defending communism or Stalin, I'm not a fan of either.

I just thought it was hilarious to refer to them as the "Russian barbarian armies".

Russian invaders! (http://images.art.com/images/products/large/10102000/10102051.jpg)

Oh sorry, I guess we'll take our uncorrupted democracy and replace it with a facist deictatorship so common in western civilisations. I guess that we'll have to stop defending countries that we have protective alliances with, and halt these constant invasions of white territories. Some people would say that Islamic radicalism is destroying the west, but our country doing it for them?
Where do you live? Do you really have a uncorrupted democracy? I want it too!

Yes, I am British and proud of our political system, although totally uncorrupted is taking it a little too far. First past the post is far more effective than the American system.

So they rob people, but in the process, burn them alive, bathe them in acid, "necklace" them with a tire soaked in oil and lit on fire... When you rob somebody, you take their money and leave, you don't skin them alive or butcher them...

You have no authoritative sources for this. Necklacing was actually more common as a punishment by the ANC of (black) political rivals


And as I said, 75% of farm attacks are solely murder or rape based, there is nothing taken.

As I said, you just made that up


And it's not their country to feel dispossessed in, it's the rightful land of the Boer.

To talk about ownership of countries is absurd. The zulus and xhosa were there first, and there are more of them, but neither of these facts gives them a right to call it "their" country. The fact that european settlers came with guns doesn't give white south africans a right to the country either.

What's a boer?

Where do you live? Do you really have a uncorrupted democracy? I want it too!

UK national democracy seems very very clean, when I look at some european countries, and the US.

I don't hate countries for their history; I don't think that's fair.

You can't pay for your father's sins forever.

You have no authoritative sources for this. Necklacing was actually more common as a punishment by the ANC of (black) political rivals



As I said, you just made that up



To talk about ownership of countries is absurd. The zulus and xhosa were there first, and there are more of them, but neither of these facts gives them a right to call it "their" country. The fact that european settlers came with guns doesn't give white south africans a right to the country either.

What's a boer?


I knew that about necklacing, but it has still been done to whites.


Facts about crime in SA: http://groups.msn.com/censorbugbear/farmnewssa.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=36&LastModified=4675442070550693438


Europeans arrived in the Cape in the 1650s, Cape Town was founded in 1652, there were no blacks even in central South Africa at the time, all were located in the northern regions, barely even inside modern day SA at the time. The land was basically totally empty. Anyway, to believe it wasn't the land of the Boer, intended by God to be such, you'd have to ignore the fact that God predestinated the Boer to live in South Africa, and His special covenant with the Boer.

Boer are the rightful owners of South Africa, don't ask me to define a word you ought to know the definition of.

You know what VoteEarly, I PITY you, that you were brainwashed by all that propaganda the government fed white South Africans, that you can't see the common humanity of people.

VoteEarly is a white South African who moved to the USA, he hates Britain for putting pressure on South Africa to end apartheid and the brutal oppression of blacks.

UK national democracy seems very very clean, when I look at some european countries, and the US.

Oh, he was referring to the UK. No probs there, 'cuz if I recall right Finland is the most non-corrupted country in the world. :D So I'm not moving to UK.

I'm half expecting to be called a 'coolie' anytime soon.

(It's a derogatory term for South African Indians- a connection to our labourer past)

VoteEarly makes me feel like crying with laughter. Get your head out of your racist arse and stop spewing bullshit about a topic you have little to no knowledge of.

he hates Britain for putting pressure on South Africa to end democracy and thus empower brutally oppressive black communists (ANC) to kill the Boer.


That would be true, but you didn't say that. Had you said it, I'd say, "Yes!", "Yes!", You're right for once."

I'm half expecting to be called a 'coolie' anytime soon.

(It's a derogatory term for South African Indians- a connection to our labourer past)


I don't flame people on the forum, get on MSN and I'll be happy to oblige though. :D

Anyway, to believe it wasn't the land of the Boer, intended by God to be such, you'd have to ignore the fact that God predestinated the Boer to live in South Africa, and His special covenant with the Boer.

Oh, he forgot to mention that to me. Well next time he calls I'll ask him 'bout it...

God damn voteearly...how can u hate the UK when u live in a country that has bombed all the countries below since WW2. The stuff your talking about happened ages ago. Oh and you say we did bad stuff to the Germans? Well they're not exactly angels are they lol...the whole invading Poland thing etc...they've almost invaded as many countries as the US. Sure we've done our fair share of crap like the slave trade, boer war crap but the Germans have done the gas chambers the slaughter of 6 million jews, the americans have naplamed kids and dropped 2 atomic weapons. I'm sure there is a more evil country than the United Kingdom. Oh and you say that we shouldn't have Scotland? If the people didn't want Prime Minister Blair as their PM then they would all vote for the Scottish National Party and would be independent...except they haven't have they? Northern Ireland has a protestant majority over Catholics who want to remain Brits. And Wales...well u know...:P
1. China 1945-46
2. Korea 1950-53
3. China 1950-53
4. Guatemala 1954
5. Indonesia 1958
6. Cuba 1959-60
7. Guatemala 1960
8. Congo 1964
9. Peru 1965
10. Laos 1964-73
11. Vietnam 1961-73
12. Cambodia 1969-70
13. Guatemala 1967-69
14. Grenada 1983
15. Libya 1986
16. El Salvador 1980s
17. Nicaragua 1980s
18. Panama 1989
19. Iraq 1991-2003
20. Sudan 1998
21. Yugoslavia 1999
22. Afghanistan 1998, 2001-2002
23. Iraq 1998 - 2003

1. China 1945-46
2. Korea 1950-53
3. China 1950-53
4. Guatemala 1954
5. Indonesia 1958
6. Cuba 1959-60
7. Guatemala 1960
8. Congo 1964
9. Peru 1965
10. Laos 1964-73
11. Vietnam 1961-73
12. Cambodia 1969-70
13. Guatemala 1967-69
14. Grenada 1983
15. Libya 1986
16. El Salvador 1980s
17. Nicaragua 1980s
18. Panama 1989
19. Iraq 1991-2003
20. Sudan 1998
21. Yugoslavia 1999
22. Afghanistan 1998, 2001-2002
23. Iraq 1998 - 2003



Propaganda and lies, most of those countries, at the time, deserved bombing.

Libya was blowing up night clubs in Germany and blew up commercial airliners, at least 1 that is known. Thus they had it coming.

#21 though, didn't deserve it, for sure. Neither did #19, #20, #23, or #22.

Anyway, to believe it wasn't the land of the Boer, intended by God to be such, you'd have to ignore the fact that God predestinated the Boer to live in South Africa, and His special covenant with the Boer.

Ooooh, I forgot about God's special covenant with the Boer.

I don't flame people on the forum, get on MSN and I'll be happy to oblige though. :D

You barbarian (http://www.filmsinreview.com/Images/A_G/conan.jpg) , you.

Propaganda and lies, most of those countries, at the time, deserved bombing.


so where's the propaganda/lies?

You barbarian , you.

Teehee.

And VoteEarly, I AM on msn, but I'm too busy talking to decent human beings. Sorry.

so where's the propaganda/lies?


Well for starters, the USA was in a WAR with Korea and Vietnam during those years, so bombing is only a natural thing to do! How would you wage a war, fire insults at them? Bombard them with warnings and "now you really ought to talk peace with us" crap? No! You bomb them into the stone age!

Well for starters, the USA was in a WAR with Korea and Vietnam during those years, so bombing is only a natural thing to do! How would you wage a war, fire insults at them? Bombard them with warnings and "now you really ought to talk peace with us" crap? No! You bomb them into the stone age!

You stupid hypocrite.

Read what you just said to yourself then go back and read the reasons why you hate the UK.

most of those countries, at the time, deserved bombing.


LOL

Guess what? You deserved 9/11 :)

LOL

Guess what? You deserved 9/11 :)



Yah, so what else is new? 911 was the righteous indignation of a wrathful God, upon a reprobate, hedonistic, and sinful people.

Yah, so what else is new? 911 was the righteous indignation of a wrathful God, upon a reprobate, hedonistic, and sinful people.

Oh dear.. you really are a crackpot aren't you..

God doesn't exist so he'd find that hard.

It was actually 19 muslims who hate America and everything it stands for :)

Oh dear.. you really are a crackpot aren't you..

Nah, just a Calvinist. ;)

Yah, so what else is new? 911 was the righteous indignation of a wrathful God, upon a reprobate, hedonistic, and sinful people.

I'm not a christian, so maybe I can't understand God's mysterious ways too well, but why would God side with Bin Laden? Isn't Bin Laden vehemently anti christian? What kind of retarded God would be responsible for the sucess of those who opposed him?

I'm not a christian, so maybe I can't understand God's mysterious ways too well, but why would God side with Bin Laden? Isn't Bin Laden vehemently anti christian? What kind of retarded God would be responsible for the sucess of those who opposed him?


God used Bin Laden and the NWO Bush regime (the folks behind the attacks) to punish the American people for their sinful ways.

God used Bin Laden and the NWO Bush regime (the folks behind the attacks) to punish the American people for their sinful ways.

Have you any idea how ridiculous you sound?

Yah, so what else is new? 911 was the righteous indignation of a wrathful God, upon a reprobate, hedonistic, and sinful people.
He wasn't very angry 'bout those things, he only tried to hit Bush. (Or so he told me...)

I am dumbfounded by the hypocritical, moronic nonsense coming from VoteEarly. First he claims the Uk is evil for bombing Germany, then states that the USA should bomb its enemies into the stone age. And what is this 'divine covenant' between God and the Boers? What are you talking about?! Not to mention the 9/11 post, how deranged are you VoteEarly?

I am dumbfounded by the hypocritical, moronic nonsense coming from VoteEarly. First he claims the Uk is evil for bombing Germany, then states that the USA should bomb its enemies into the stone age. And what is this 'divine covenant' between God and the Boers? What are you talking about?! Not to mention the 9/11 post, how deranged are you VoteEarly?

He's perhaps one of those white guys in America with too many guns and too little compassion of themselves. They often blow their brains out sooner or later according to the suicide statistic.

Please repent your sins and move along VoteEarly. :fluffle:

God used Bin Laden and the NWO Bush regime (the folks behind the attacks) to punish the American people for their sinful ways.

Because the freemasons were busy fighting the saucer people who wanted to clone humans aboard their ship in order to have them fight against the other aliens who wanted to stop the robot-president from reaching "the level beyond human"! Because God was trying to punish the Zionist conspiritors by handing them over to the secret underground network of mutant vampire hunters who had stolen the magical blah blah blah

Because the freemasons were busy fighting the saucer people who wanted to clone humans aboard their ship in order to have them fight against the other aliens who wanted to stop the robot-president from reaching "the level beyond human"! Because God was trying to punish the Zionist conspiritors by handing them over to the secret underground network of mutant vampire hunters who had stolen the magical blah blah blah

Lol.

*Turns on we didnt start the fire* oh yeah *Starts getting his political Ideas and dances around*

saudi arabia

He's perhaps one of those white guys in America with too many guns and too little compassion of themselves. They often blow their brains out sooner or later according to the suicide statistic.

Please repent your sins and move along VoteEarly. :fluffle:

I own a few guns, and I live in America, and I have compassion.

:fluffle:

Still not dead, am I?

Don't paint people with a wide brush - just because he's fatuous doesn't mean he owns a lot of guns.

It has come to the opinion of I, that VoteEarly was doing it on purpose to annoy those which would listen to him/her/it.
Any way, how can country? Its more disliking the current policies of its Government.
Its also become fashionable to claim to hate America.
And.... it that VoteEarly really does have such fews, they should be hanged, drawn and quartered. Its the merciful thing to do.

They claim to be for Western civilization but then they go out and put Boers into camps, or they start a war with the Kaiser and kill Germans.

That has to be one of the most stupid things I've ever heard anyone say regarding world history. Are you a professional ignoramous or something?

Because the freemasons were busy fighting the saucer people who wanted to clone humans aboard their ship in order to have them fight against the other aliens who wanted to stop the robot-president from reaching "the level beyond human"! Because God was trying to punish the Zionist conspiritors by handing them over to the secret underground network of mutant vampire hunters who had stolen the magical blah blah blah

Don't forget the involvement of Cthulhu and the Gnomes of Zurich. :D

Stalin had a plan, in 1943 he was going to invade central Europe, it was either attack the USSR in 1941, or lose the chance to do it and have Europe swept up in the tide of communism and tyranny. Although the tyranny Hitler brought wasn't much better, at least it wasn't communism.

Communism is so much better the Nazism, you have no idea.

"Arming Indians in colonial America and instigating them against Americans."

The British may have armed them, but the American government(Canadian too) wiped them out. Thats so much better

Communism uses the people as slave labour living in abhorent conditions with regular purges to wipe out the interlectual, making them think that they are equal. So much better? I think not...

Communism is so much better the Nazism, you have no idea.

Nazism wasn't Nazism until the Holocost started. Before that, Germany was prosperous. When Germany was conquering the Great Depression, Russia was sending countless hordes to Siberian work camps. Yeah, Communism is just wonderful.

I voted China.

What took hold in Russia was not Communism (to say it was is a common misconception). The second revolution took place too soon after the first for it to be Communism, and anyone who doesn't believe me needs to refresh their Marxism.

Nazism wasn't Nazism until the Holocost started. Before that, Germany was prosperous. When Germany was conquering the Great Depression, Russia was sending countless hordes to Siberian work camps. Yeah, Communism is just wonderful.

I voted China.

So what was Nazism before it was Nazism? :confused:

I'm not defending Russia, Russia was not Socialist or Communist. The USSR was a horrible dictatorship. Communism is about impowering the people, not slave labour.

I can't believe someone is defending Hitler and Fascist Germany. Fascism is about authoritian one man rule and Nazism is about Totalitrian rule and race superority.

Don't forget the involvement of Cthulhu and the Gnomes of Zurich. :D

Yeah, I'm sorry.

...who had stolen the magical space helmet which Soviets built to deflect the call of Cthulhu, and hidden it deep in the Swiss countryside in a secret underground bunker built by Lee Harvey Oswald to hide the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was responsible for 9/11 after he was allowed to use his time machine by the Gnomes (Illuminati who were strongly tied to the masons, not all masons, just the elite illuminati masons) and tried to go back in time to assassinate Jesus and recover the ark of the covenant (the famous Boer covenant, not the Israelite one) but accidentally went forward and had to steer towards the towers to avoid an alien tractor beam which was attacking his craft, his time machine which had been commandeered by the Gnomes because they thought they could use it to spread mason propaganda in the form of subliminal messages in TV commercials which told people to rise and kill in order to cover up the fact that Hitler and Jesus were actually still alive in their genetic laboratory which was hidden under the pentagon to disguise the fact that I'm dragging this joke too far so I'll stop.

So what was Nazism before it was Nazism? :confused:
I forget the name. Something Socialist.

oh wow. the U.S. is the most hated country. I'm surprised

[/sarcasm]

I forget the name. Something Socialist.

National Socialism?

Or, in german, Nationalsozialismus?

I can't believe someone is defending Hitler and Fascist Germany. Fascism is about authoritian one man rule and Nazism is about Totalitrian rule and race superority.
I'm not defending Hitler, I'm defending the good things he did with Germany after he came to power. Before Hitler, Germany was the country worst hit by the depression, when Hitler came to power, he completly changed that. Stalin killed 23 Million Russians, Hitler killed like 6 Million Jews.

National Socialism?

Or, in german, Nationalsozialismus?
Ja, but Nazism became assoiated with Killing after the holocoust, before that, National Socialism was assoiated with Strictly Governed Prosperity.

Ja, but Nazism became assoiated with Killing after the holocoust, before that, National Socialism was assoiated with Strictly Governed Prosperity.
Nazism IS National Socialism. Make no mistake, they are both the same.

Ja, but Nazism became assoiated with Killing after the holocoust, before that, National Socialism was assoiated with Strictly Governed Prosperity.

Basically, a type of totalitarianist fascism, which supported as key parts of its ideology, racism, social darwinism and imperialism.

I'm not defending Hitler, I'm defending the good things he did with Germany after he came to power. Before Hitler, Germany was the country worst hit by the depression, when Hitler came to power, he completly changed that. Stalin killed 23 Million Russians, Hitler killed like 6 Million Jews.
*Cough*

Other (please specify)



How?

Russia is looking better because the standard of living has increased.
You must be joking. Have you looked at the statistics? Hell, have you even been to Russia? Or talked to an average Russian?

There's a good reason why virtually all Russian political parties with an ounce of public support are saying they want to bring back the Soviet Union, you know...

People aren't slaves any more.
Ask the Russians. Most of them are far more poor and miserable - and therefore less free - in capitalism than they've ever been in the Soviet Union.

Basically, a type of totalitarianist fascism, which supported as key parts of its ideology, racism, social darwinism and imperialism.

Darwinism relies on the idea that natural selection will breed out any genuine deficiencies in the human race. Killing everyone from certain races actually goes against darwinism, because it intervenes with the natural selection process.

As for the racism and imperialism though, I think you've got Nazism pretty well sussed.

I'm not defending Hitler, I'm defending the good things he did with Germany after he came to power. Before Hitler, Germany was the country worst hit by the depression, when Hitler came to power, he completly changed that. Stalin killed 23 Million Russians, Hitler killed like 6 Million Jews.
Yeah, Hitler only killed 6 Million Jews... and nearly 30 million OTHER people (20 million of whom were civilians).

Yeah, Hitler only killed 6 Million Jews... and nearly 30 million OTHER people (20 million of whom were civilians).
Are we talking WWII Casualties here?

[QUOTE=Dogburg]Russia is looking better because the standard of living has increased.
You must be joking. Have you looked at the statistics? Hell, have you even been to Russia? Or talked to an average Russian?

There's a good reason why virtually all Russian political parties with an ounce of public support are saying they want to bring back the Soviet Union, you know...


Ask the Russians. Most of them are far more poor and miserable - and therefore less free - in capitalism than they've ever been in the Soviet Union.

I didn't post all of that. I think you messed up your quote tag placement. Anyway, Russians may still be poor and miserable, but the difference is, they now have freedom of choice and are more able to get themselves out of poverty and misery. Since the Soviet Union pretty much outlawed individual prosperity, they didn't have that chance until 15 years ago.

I voted Cuba because Castro's regime is in my opinion the most despotic at the moment.
Again, you must be joking. As far as dictators go, Castro is pretty much the most benevolent in the world today - and certainly one of the most benevolent in history. The total number of people killed by Castro during his 45 years in power is less than the number of Iraqi civilians killed by the US in less than 2 years of occupation. Furthermore, Castro's worst human rights abuses consist of putting dissenting journalists in jail for a couple of years. BIG DEAL - the USA used to do that in the 50's, too.

Darwinism relies on the idea that natural selection will breed out any genuine deficiencies in the human race. Killing everyone from certain races actually goes against darwinism, because it intervenes with the natural selection process.

I said Social Darwinism, the ideology that uses the concept of natural selection to rationalise the oppression of the weak by the strong, or the poor by the rich, or some variation on that them. In the case of the Nazis, it was the dominance of the Aryan race over everyone else who Hitler didn't like.

Yeah, Hitler only killed 6 Million Jews... and nearly 30 million OTHER people (20 million of whom were civilians).
Way exaggerated. Most of these casualties were in China, not by Hitler.
Many were Russians. Many were Germans. Victims of the war. It is still not clear how many jews exactly died during Hitler's dictatorship. While the victim numbers of WW2 seem to be corrected upwards all the time, the German victims however are being corrected downwards. I suggest, you find historically accurate and undisputed numbers. You'll not find any.

I didn't post all of that. I think you messed up your quote tag placement.
Sorry about that - I went back and fixed it.

Anyway, Russians may still be poor and miserable...
You don't seem to understand... they're far more poor and miserable than they've ever been since WW2.

...but the difference is, they now have freedom of choice and are more able to get themselves out of poverty and misery.
Yeah, right. In theory, slaves in ancient Rome also had the possibility of getting themselves out of slavery - but it was insanely difficult and few ever managed it. In a similar manner, Russians are theoretically free to get themselves out of poverty and misery, but it is insanely difficult and few ever manage it.

Since the Soviet Union pretty much outlawed individual prosperity, they didn't have that chance until 15 years ago.
I don't know what you mean by "outlawed individual prosperity", but individual citizens of Russia WERE more prosperous in Soviet days. I can dig up the numbers from the CIA World Factbook to prove it if you don't believe me.

Are we talking WWII Casualties here?
Hitler's victims aren't divided between "jews in concentration camps" and "WW2 casualties". Millions of civilians were slaughtered in occupied Russia (for example), without ever being taken anywhere near a concentration camp.

Hmm. DOn't hate any country. It's just a plot of land. But I hate what some people are doing to others in the country, like ethnic cleansings in Africa and stuff. :(

I voted Cuba because Castro's regime is in my opinion the most despotic at the moment.
More so than China, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Uzbekistan or Iran?

I think China has the worst government.

Again, you must be joking. As far as dictators go, Castro is pretty much the most benevolent in the world today - and certainly one of the most benevolent in history. The total number of people killed by Castro during his 45 years in power is less than the number of Iraqi civilians killed by the US in less than 2 years of occupation. Furthermore, Castro's worst human rights abuses consist of putting dissenting journalists in jail for a couple of years. BIG DEAL - the USA used to do that in the 50's, too.

Immediately after the revolution, didn't Castro send thousands to death camps? He routinely jails all the dissenters he can lay his hands on. And his regime has pretty much outlawed emmigration, so nobody who opposes the government can leave his totalitarian hole. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've done a little research to try and back up my claims, and while I haven't found a resource with reliability which satisfies me yet, a few different sources have been mentioning 73000 as a Castro kill-count. If it's an accurate figure, that's pretty heavy for "one of the most benevolent in history".

More so than China, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Uzbekistan or Iran?


I reckon I would have picked North Korea had it been on there. Cuba just struck me as one of the more notoriously despotic on the list.

Immediately after the revolution, didn't Castro send thousands to death camps? He routinely jails all the dissenters he can lay his hands on. And his regime has pretty much outlawed emmigration, so nobody who opposes the government can leave his totalitarian hole. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've done a little research to try and back up my claims, and while I haven't found a resource with reliability which satisfies me yet, a few different sources have been mentioning 73000 as a Castro kill-count. If it's an accurate figure, that's pretty heavy for "one of the most benevolent in history".


I think your info's wrong. Imediatly after getting into power Castro introduced a literacy policy that required every citizen of Cuba to personally write a letter to him to show that they could read and write.
I think he even wrote back, but that I'm unsure of.

I voted for Israel. I'm not anti-semitic but I am anti-zionist. The creation of the state of Israel was possibly the most short sighted act of the last century.

"Hey guys, I have this great idea - let's take a persecuted, disenfranchised race and give them a homeland by disenfranchising another whole race and surrounding them with people who hate them".

I really hate the UK, for what they recently did to Rhodesia, and for the pressure they put on the formerly democratic South Africa to collapse into a communist one-party dictatorship.

Also, I don't think I can ever forgive England for their horribly atrocious conduct during the Boer War.

I have plenty of reasons to hate England, without even touching on their crimes against the American and German people, it is still a massive list.

I mostly hate the English government, I don't hold much against the English people, except that by tolerating their governments, and putting them into power, they enable more atrocities to occur.

Apartheid South Africa wasn't exactly what I'd call democratic. Moreover, the U.S. was just as guilty when it came to destroying Rhodesia.

He [Fidel Castro] routinely jails all the dissenters he can lay his hands on.
Hardly! Do you remember when he fell from a stage last year? A crew from the BBC went through the streets of Havana showing people the footage of his fall and asking them what they thought about it. One woman said Castro was getting old and should step down from power. If Cubans can say that not just in public, but on sattelite television without being the least bit afraid, I don't think there's much "oppression" going on.

And his regime has pretty much outlawed emmigration, so nobody who opposes the government can leave his totalitarian hole.
Emmigration isn't outlawed - just made very difficult. Of course, there's only one nation that Castro doesn't want Cubans emmigrating to, and that's the USA. All people who flee Cuba head towards the USA. This should make you pause and think. Cuba is surrounded by capitalist countries. Of those capitalist countries, the USA is the hardest to get into. It would be infinitely easier for a Cuban to get into Mexico, or Jamaica, or the Dominican Republic, or any other island in the Carribean. Yet no Cubans are trying to get into those countries. You know why? Because life in Cuba is better than life anywhere else in Central America. It's much worse than life in the United States, of course, but that doesn't mean much - after all, life in Mexico is even worse, but you don't hear people calling Mexico a "hell hole" or hating its leader.

The USA and Cuba are extremely different in terms of size, history, and just about everything else. On the other hand, Cuba has a lot of things in common with its Central American neighbors. And if Castro can give his people a better life than they could have in any of those neighboring countries, he's ok in my book.

I've done a little research to try and back up my claims, and while I haven't found a resource with reliability which satisfies me yet, a few different sources have been mentioning 73000 as a Castro kill-count. If it's an accurate figure, that's pretty heavy for "one of the most benevolent in history".
73 thousand, even if it were an accurate figure, would put Castro in something like the 50th place among dictators from the 20th century (in terms of body counts). And when you consider that this number is spread out over 45 years, he might score even lower. Lots of dictators killed 100 thousand people or more.

Of course, the problem is that even 73 thousand is a highly exaggerated body count for Castro. If you like statistics, please see this very detailed list (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat6.htm) and scroll down to "Cuba". Here, I'll cut and paste the relevant section for you (it mentions events and different sources that give different body counts):

* Fidel Castro regime (1959- )
o Skidmore: 550 executions in 1st six months of 1959
o Gilbert: more than 2,000 executed.
o WHPSI: 2,113 political executions 1958-67
o Hugh Thomas, Cuba, or, the pursuit of freedom (1971, 1988): "perhaps" 5,000 executions by 1970.
+ In addition, Thomas cites (unfavorably: "... does not command confidence")
# Cuban Information Service, 1963:
* 2875 executed after trial
* 4245 executed w/o trial
* 2962 killed fighting Castro's regime.
# Caldeville (1969)
* 22,000 killed or died in jail.
* 2,000 drowned fleeing
o 27 Dec. 1998 AP (published in Minneapolis Star Tribune and Buffalo News, et al.):
+ cites Hugh Thomas: 5,000 might have beeen executed by 1970
+ "... in recent years, capital punishment has been rare."
o Cuban American National Foundation (1997): 12,000 political executions (http://www.canfnet.org/english/faqfutur.htm)
o 11 Dec. 1998 New Statesman: 18,000 killed or disappeared since 1959 (citing Cuban American Nat'l Foundation)
o Mario Lazo, Dagger in the Heart : American Policy Failures in Cuba (1968):
+ 15,000 put to death by 1967.
+ 35,000 refugees drowned (based on a 75% mortality, which seems high. cf. Vietnamese and Haitian death rates.)
+ Total: 50,000
o Rummel (1959-87):
+ Executions: 15,000
+ Boat people drowned: 51,000 (based on a 75% mortality. See above)
+ Died in prison: 7,000
+ TOTAL: 73,000
o 22 Feb. 1999 Houston Chronicle (editorial by Agustin Blazquez): 97,000 deaths caused by Castro. This number seems to have originally come from an unpublished study by Armando Lago [http://www.nocastro.com/archives/gohome.htm], which now apparently estimates a death toll of 116,730-119,730, the bulk of whom (85,000) disappeared at sea. [http://www.cubanueva.com/cubahoy/politica/1211_COSTOHUMANO-REVOLUCION.htm] Like most sources that only appear in editorials and Internet, be careful.
o ANALYSIS: The dividing line between those who have an ax to grind and those who don't falls in the 5,000-12,000 range.

There you have it. Castro killed between 5,000 and 12,000 people in 45 years. That's less than the total number of murders that happen in the USA during an average year.

I think your info's wrong. Imediatly after getting into power Castro introduced a literacy policy that required every citizen of Cuba to personally write a letter to him to show that they could read and write.
I think he even wrote back, but that I'm unsure of.

Forcing everyone to write letters is still mildly totalitarian, albeit slightly more absurd than killing them. I guess I don't really such a leg to stand on if the extent of his human rights abuses involved forced writing. Still, I'm almost certain he must have killed at least a few hundred political dissenters, which is still a gross human rights abuse.

Like I said, I would have picked North Korea had it been an option.

The country I hate most? Zimbabwe.

I really hate the UK, for what they recently did to Rhodesia

Don't hate the whole country because of that. Remember, many Brits supported the Rhodesian cause. Hating the UK just because of the actions of one man (Harold Wilson) would be like hating the U.S. just because of GWB.

73 thousand, even if it were an accurate figure, would put Castro in something like the 50th place among dictators from the 20th century (in terms of body counts). And when you consider that this number is spread out over 45 years, he might score even lower. Lots of dictators killed 100 thousand people or more.


Yes, if the poll question had involved regimes from the past as well, Castro's killing would be a picnic, considering the likes of Hitler and Stalin. I assumed the poll was asking about countries in their current state, so I disregarded Russia and the like's former human rights problems and considered their present day situation. China in the mid 20th century was an abbotoir, but in recent years I'm pretty sure they've been relaxing their paranoid killing.

And as for 5000-12000, that's still a huge number of people for a government to kill, even if it did happen over a long period of time. Castro certainly isn't the worst leader in history, as I explained in the previous paragraph, but his present day regime was one which I considered worse than those of the US, France, the UK, and most of the other options on there.

Oh god I hate Wales.

By the way, if you want to see a good analysis of the "Who was the worst murderer of the 20th century?" discussion, click here: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

By the way, if you want to see a good analysis of the "Who was the worst murderer of the 20th century?" discussion, click here: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm
lol

I really hate the UK, for what they recently did to Rhodesia, and for the pressure they put on the formerly democratic South Africa to collapse into a communist one-party dictatorship.

Also, I don't think I can ever forgive England for their horribly atrocious conduct during the Boer War.

I have plenty of reasons to hate England, without even touching on their crimes against the American and German people, it is still a massive list.

I mostly hate the English government, I don't hold much against the English people, except that by tolerating their governments, and putting them into power, they enable more atrocities to occur.

At least they have ebough sense not to support Blair...

Yes, if the poll question had involved regimes from the past as well, Castro's killing would be a picnic, considering the likes of Hitler and Stalin. I assumed the poll was asking about countries in their current state, so I disregarded Russia and the like's former human rights problems and considered their present day situation. China in the mid 20th century was an abbotoir, but in recent years I'm pretty sure they've been relaxing their paranoid killing.

And as for 5000-12000, that's still a huge number of people for a government to kill, even if it did happen over a long period of time. Castro certainly isn't the worst leader in history, as I explained in the previous paragraph, but his present day regime was one which I considered worse than those of the US, France, the UK, and most of the other options on there.
I can think of over a dozen present-day countries whose leaders are far worse than Castro in terms of total deaths caused, even though most of them have been in power for far less time than Castro has (for example North Korea, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Burma, a whole bunch of African countries, and so on... even Bush killed more Iraqi civilians in his 2 year occupation than the number of people Castro killed during his entire time in power). However, except for China and the USA, none of those countries were on the poll, so you might have a point.

On the other hand, there's always the "Other" option...

There you have it. Castro killed between 5,000 and 12,000 people in 45 years. That's less than the total number of murders that happen in the USA during an average year.


Oh yeah and you are going to compare the population of the U.S. to Cuba who in 1959 had only 6 million people. Besides 12,000 is such a small amount of people anyway. [/sarcasm]

Oh yeah and you are going to compare the population of the U.S. to Cuba who in 1959 had only 6 million people. Besides 12,000 is such a small amount of people anyway. [/sarcasm]

That's a point. Maybe Castro didn't go Stalin-style with his purges simply because he didn't have enough people in his country to do so. Given the scales involved, Castro's "% of population murdered" might be quite significant in comparison with those of other totalitarian leaders.

I guess North Korea, or better: the North Korean government is the worst at this moment. They are brainwashing the whole population.
The worst country is, I think Somalia. There is no goverment at all, but total anarchy.

Oh yeah and you are going to compare the population of the U.S. to Cuba who in 1959 had only 6 million people.
Ok, let's see how much is 12,000 out of 6 million (notice that I'm taking the high end of the estimate, and assuming they were all killed at once, when in reality they died over a period of 45 years).

12,000 / 6,000,000 = 0.002

Besides 12,000 is such a small amount of people anyway. [/sarcasm]
If you want to go into the body count business, you have to remain objective and impartial. 5,000-12,000 people is a very small number of deaths by all imaginable standards.

That's a point. Maybe Castro didn't go Stalin-style with his purges simply because he didn't have enough people in his country to do so. Given the scales involved, Castro's "% of population murdered" might be quite significant in comparison with those of other totalitarian leaders.
See my post right above this one. Even if we go by % of population murdered, Castro still scores at the bottom of the list of dictators. (and by the way, if we use the same method for Russia and China, Stalin and Mao score much lower than if we go by absolute numbers - they killed so many people precisely because they ruled such big countries)

Ok, let's see how much is 12,000 out of 6 million (notice that I'm taking the high end of the estimate, and assuming they were all killed at once, when in reality they died over a period of 45 years).

12,000 / 6,000,000 = 0.002


If you want to go into the body count business, you have to remain objective and impartial. 5,000-12,000 people is a very small number of deaths by all imaginable standards.

5000-12000 is a horrific death toll for a government to dish out to its innocent citizens. By all imaginable standards, except more totalitarian ones.

Governments I strongly dislike

- North Korea

- Turkmenistan - A strange country

"Democratic Party of Turkmenistan or DPT [Saparmurat NIYAZOV]
note: formal opposition parties are outlawed" - How Ironic

- Zimbabwe

Goverments I generally dislike

-Iran
-Syria
-Israel
-China
-Cuba

Government i'm neutral towards

- Almost everyone else

Castro is a wuss compared to Stalin, Hilter, Mao and others.

5000-12000 is a horrific death toll for a government to dish out to its innocent citizens. By all imaginable standards, except more totalitarian ones.

My point exactly.

5000-12000 is a horrific death toll for a government to dish out to its innocent citizens.
Most of those citizens were convicted and executed as a result of criminal trials. Of course, that doesn't mean the trials were fair, and I expect that many of those people were innocent, but it would be an exaggeration to say that all of them must have been innocent.

And, again, I have to point out that when you compare Castro with other dictators, he is among the least bad of them all. There are quite a few democratic leaders, too, who killed more people than Castro ever did.

By all imaginable standards, except more totalitarian ones.
Not really. More than 12,000 people are killed in car accidents in the USA every year. More than 12,000 people are killed by individual murderers in the USA every year. More than 12,000 Iraqi civilians were killed since the war officially ended.

See what I mean?

Castro is a wuss compared to Stalin, Hilter, Mao and others.

Ian Huntley is a wuss compared with Jack the Ripper. He's still a murderer.

Not really. More than 12,000 people are killed in car accidents in the USA every year. More than 12,000 people are killed by individual murderers in the USA every year. More than 12,000 Iraqi civilians were killed since the war officially ended.

See what I mean?

Car crash victims aren't murdered by a single governmental entity. Nor are individual murder victims. And there's a difference between thousands of political dissenters killed by a government and thousands of casualties in a war.

Ian Huntley is a wuss compared with Jack the Ripper. He's still a murderer.

(Applause)

Ian Huntley is a wuss compared with Jack the Ripper. He's still a murderer.
Problem: Virtually every political leader in the history of the Earth is responsible for at least a handful of innocent deaths. So if you argue that killing one innocent man is enough to make a government or other organization evil, then you'd better start calling just about all the governments, corporations and other large organizations in the world "evil"...

Car crash victims aren't murdered by a single governmental entity. Nor are individual murder victims. And there's a difference between thousands of political dissenters killed by a government and thousands of casualties in a war.
A death is still a death. Are you saying that some ways of killing people are more acceptable than others? Killing a few thousand political dissidents (something Castro did) is somehow worse than, for example, burning alive a few hundred thousand innocent citizens of Desden? (something Winston Churchill did)

And there's a difference between thousands of political dissenters killed by a government and thousands of casualties in a war.


So I take it there's a difference between Iraqi civillians and American civillians based solely on who's invading who?

Civillian deaths are civillian deaths, if you want to use them as a backing, you better acknowladge them in every case as having the same merit, otherwise all you're doing is disrespecting the dead.

Dostanuot Loj, Your living in Dartmouth? Sweet, I'm in Halifax.

I really hate the UK, for what they recently did to Rhodesia, and for the pressure they put on the formerly democratic South Africa to collapse into a communist one-party dictatorship.

Also, I don't think I can ever forgive England for their horribly atrocious conduct during the Boer War.

I have plenty of reasons to hate England, without even touching on their crimes against the American and German people, it is still a massive list.

I mostly hate the English government, I don't hold much against the English people, except that by tolerating their governments, and putting them into power, they enable more atrocities to occur.

You have been watching too many Hollywood movies on English history it seems.
You don't hate the Germans for what they did to the Jews but you hate they British for not actually INTENTIONALLY setting up kill camps?
And their conduct in the Boer was hardly as bad as many other country's conduct, Belgium for example.
And really, what great crimes against the American have the British commited?

I knew that about necklacing, but it has still been done to whites.


Facts about crime in SA: http://groups.msn.com/censorbugbear/farmnewssa.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=36&LastModified=4675442070550693438


Europeans arrived in the Cape in the 1650s, Cape Town was founded in 1652, there were no blacks even in central South Africa at the time, all were located in the northern regions, barely even inside modern day SA at the time. The land was basically totally empty. Anyway, to believe it wasn't the land of the Boer, intended by God to be such, you'd have to ignore the fact that God predestinated the Boer to live in South Africa, and His special covenant with the Boer.

Boer are the rightful owners of South Africa, don't ask me to define a word you ought to know the definition of.

Losing to the bloody Boer's was one of the worst things Britain has done.

Problem: Virtually every political leader in the history of the Earth is responsible for at least a handful of innocent deaths. So if you argue that killing one innocent man is enough to make a government or other organization evil, then you'd better start calling just about all the governments, corporations and other large organizations in the world "evil"...

I don't think I ever used the subjective term "evil". But yes, by my reckoning, most world governments are corrupt to some degree, which is why I advocate minimal government control in all areas of public life.

As for the war casualties thing, yes, Iraqi lives are just as important as American or British lives. My point was the context. A country murdering their own citizens is in my view less morally acceptable than a country responsible for deaths in a warzone. By the way, Saddam was one of the former.

The US of A. too many goddam reasons.

I don't think I ever used the subjective term "evil". But yes, by my reckoning, most world governments are corrupt to some degree, which is why I advocate minimal government control in all areas of public life.
Of course, if minimal government actually leads to far more suffering than your average social democratic state (which it does), then it defeats the whole point of having "minimal government" in the first place. If your cure kills the patient along with the disease, it's a bad cure.

"[What Hayek] does not see, or will not admit, is that a return to 'free' competition means for the great mass of people a tyranny probably worse, because it is more irresponsible, than that of the State."
- George Orwell

As for the war casualties thing, yes, Iraqi lives are just as important as American or British lives. My point was the context. A country murdering their own citizens is in my view less morally acceptable than a country responsible for deaths in a warzone. By the way, Saddam was one of the former.
If the deaths in the warzone were completely unnecessary (such as in the case of Dresden), then I consider them morally equivalent to a country killing its own citizens.

I hate Andorra. I mean, I really hate 'em. I'm not sure why........Okay, so they are more of a Principality, but I hate 'em. :mp5: :sniper:


Luxembourg is just askin' for it too.

...Luxembourg is just askin' for it too.

WHAT! :mad:

WHAT! :mad:
They are small and easy to beat up. :D ;)

Of course, if minimal government actually leads to far more suffering than your average social democratic state (which it does), then it defeats the whole point of having "minimal government" in the first place. If your cure kills the patient along with the disease, it's a bad cure.


Democratic states tend towards more restricted governments, since people would rather be "oppressed" by corporations which don't, in reality have any kind of forceful hold on their lives whatsoever than to be oppressed by a government (like that of Fidel Castro) which does have legal jurisdiction over them.

Don't try and prented that Castro is some great defender of democracy. I'm attacking totalitarianism by condemning his regime, his style of government being the antithesis of democracy (which is a system based on choice and free will).


If the deaths in the warzone were completely unnecessary (such as in the case of Dresden), then I consider them morally equivalent to a country killing its own citizens.

Fair enough. In Dresden we acted with moral indecency. We had just undergone five years of merciless battery by the tyrant that those people voted for. Of course, this doesn't justify the actions of the British, but it at least gives a reason for our brazen acts.

Politically speaking, if it could be said that I "hate" any of the listed nations, it would most likely be Israel. I just think they aren't overly deserving of the coddling the US and Great Britain give them. I think what happened during the Holocaust was horrific, but that was Jews from Germany and Austria, not Israelis. And they tried their best to play catch-up with the nazi ethnic cleansing by doing a little ethnic cleansing of their own (www.alnakba.org). They're a nation that didn't earn its own identity or sovereignty, it was handed to them. Yeah, I know that people say they stood alone during the Arab-Israeli war, but that ignores the fact that they were also practically given a much superior military, along with training and equipment, by the Americans and the British, not to mention that there were also troops involved in that war from other nations on the side of Israel, so they didn't stand nearly as alone as history tries to paint. I just honestly think they are a long way from deserving what they were handed. Also, the argument that they have an historical claim on that land is completely bunk. Nobody has an historical claim on any land if they abandon it. If you want a claim on the land, stay there, it's that simple.

Every country that isn't in my region. Bitches. I guess this means every single country that isn't me, but who's counting?

France, for producing Charles du Fucking Gaulle.

I spit on his name, memory, grave, children, children's children, children's children's children, etc....

Don't mess with Canadian unity, you dead arrogant French swine.

What's a boer?
The Boers are the decendents of the Dutch farmers, mainly from Zeeland, that where settled at the cape by the Dutch East Indies Company (VOC). They founded Cape Town in 1652 as a station for their ships sailing to the Indies to replenish their food and water supplies.
And neither the Zulus or the Xhosa lived at the Cape during that time.

And neither the Zulus or the Xhosa lived at the Cape during that time.

Well no, but the San did.

The US....that wasn't a hard one.

I find it astounding that France has more votes than China. That's appauling. And I voted for the US, but no one can call me biased against it, because I live here! And I hate what the fucking voters did! I'm not old enough to vote so you can't blame me, for this mess. And that's why I hate America more than anyother country, becuase they way we've been screwed over by Bush and Co.

I really dont have *cough*Syria*Cough*.... as I was sayin I really dont have a country that I hate the most.

Well no, but the San did.
But how many people ever heard of them? And it's not like they were living there in peace and harmony up untill the arrival of the Boers.

I don't really hate any country. But I hate some governments. Like the US government and the North Korean government. Same fascism, different methods.


And I'd just like to add that VoteEarly is one of the most fascist morons I've ever seen. He's obviously a descendant of the dutch colonizers that went to south africa and enslaved and killed millions of natives. I'm guessing that they are the "De Boer"s.

He's a lunatic people, just ignore him.

I'm English. I couldn't care less about whether a country is US-friendly or not.

Russia is looking better because the standard of living has increased. People aren't slaves any more. People are buying, selling, prospering.
But the Russians lived longer under soveit rule than they do now so mabey the living has increased for politicians and mafiyas
any way the county i hate the most is (drum roll) Saudi Aribia with 9-11 aand all and about france i doudt any of the people who say they hate france have ever been there it a pretty nice place and i dont see how anyone could hate it except for right wingers and bush idolizers

But the Russians lived longer under soveit rule than they do now so mabey the living has increased for politicians and mafiyas


Got a source for that? And I doubt that all those Zeks and Gulag residents lived longer under Soviet rule than they would now.

Got a source for that? And I doubt that all those Zeks and Gulag residents lived longer under Soviet rule than they would now.
Here ya go.
http://www.personalmd.com/news/a1998031010.shtml

Mmm, shock therapy.

Here ya go.
http://www.personalmd.com/news/a1998031010.shtml

Mmm, shock therapy.

Fair enough. At least they're drinking themselves to death instead of being worked to death building canals and the like, though.

But how many people ever heard of them? And it's not like they were living there in peace and harmony up untill the arrival of the Boers.
Well it seems they were until they were wiped out by small pox.
http://www.come2capetown.com/newsletter/sept/the_city.htm
Like many north american tribes. If they died quickly enough by not putting up a fight then we've never heard of them.

But how many people ever heard of them? And it's not like they were living there in peace and harmony up untill the arrival of the Boers.

What does that have to do with anything? They were still there...

And btw, the San are still around in very small numbers, EGR.

I can't help but notice the lack of Southern countries. I know no one really could hate them but what about the Kiwis or Aussies? S. Africians for Aparthiad(sp) etc... It seems communist vs capitalist and mid-east in fighting based.
I really hate the UK, for what they recently did to Rhodesia, and for the pressure they put on the formerly democratic South Africa to collapse into a communist one-party dictatorship.

Also, I don't think I can ever forgive England for their horribly atrocious conduct during the Boer War.

I have plenty of reasons to hate England, without even touching on their crimes against the American and German people, it is still a massive list.

I mostly hate the English government, I don't hold much against the English people, except that by tolerating their governments, and putting them into power, they enable more atrocities to occur.
Yeah, sure. And you studied politics where? KKK Klown Kollege? Or some other extremist yankee doodle dandy group got you by the short and curlies?