NationStates Jolt Archive

OR IS IT? *starts hymning*

"Let the heathens spill theirs, on the dusty ground
God will make them pay, for each sperm that can't be found"

Do you think that 'every sperm is sacred', and that the spilling of sperms via masturbation or protected sex is a waste? (Or are you an extreme, like I reckon Jesussaves is, and think that it's MURDER even?) And what about abortion?

I say: Have as much sex as you want. If you can't find a woman to masturbate in - do it yourself. Abortion should be allowed pretty much until the water brakes: unborn children are just potential humans, much like sperms are - they do not have the intellect that separates us from animals and are thus disposable.

What do y'all think?

*fetches popcorn*

OR IS IT? *starts hymning*

"Let the heathens spill theirs, on the dusty ground
God will make them pay, for each sperm that can't be found"

Do you think that 'every sperm is sacred', and that the spilling of sperms via masturbation or protected sex is a waste? (Or are you an extreme, like I reckon Jesussaves is, and think that it's MURDER even?) And what about abortion?

I say: Have as much sex as you want. If you can't find a woman to masturbate in - do it yourself. Abortion should be allowed pretty much until the water brakes: unborn children are just potential humans, much like sperms are - they do not have the intellect that separates us from animals and are thus disposable.

What do y'all think?

*fetches popcorn*

I think we're going to need more popcorn, given the general thrust of your post. We're going to be here a while.

OR IS IT? *starts hymning*

"Let the heathens spill theirs, on the dusty ground
God will make them pay, for each sperm that can't be found"

Do you think that 'every sperm is sacred', and that the spilling of sperms via masturbation or protected sex is a waste? (Or are you an extreme, like I reckon Jesussaves is, and think that it's MURDER even?) And what about abortion?

I say: Have as much sex as you want. If you can't find a woman to masturbate in - do it yourself. Abortion should be allowed pretty much until the water brakes: unborn children are just potential humans, much like sperms are - they do not have the intellect that separates us from animals and are thus disposable.

What do y'all think?

*fetches popcorn*

A can't believe that you just said a fetus is disposable. That's horrible, man. A heartbeat of a fetus can be heard after 21 days of pregancy. I dare anyone to say that a heartbeat does not signify life. Abortion = irrisponsible, plain and simple.

Abstinence is murder.

Abstinence is murder.

*doesn't see the connection*

A can't believe that you just said a fetus is disposable. That's horrible, man. A heartbeat of a fetus can be heard after 21 days of pregancy. I dare anyone to say that a heartbeat does not signify life. Abortion = irrisponsible, plain and simple.
I'm of the opinion that brain activity = life. Mice have a heartbeat. We kill them all the time. Braindead people have a heartbeat, but we pull the plug. I think we should figure out where to draw the line between a fetus and a person by determining when the brain develops sufficiently to think and feel.

Abstinence is murder.

Certainly. Abstinence until marraige is not necessarily murder, however. OMG straw man!

Sorry. I just wanted to be the one to start the fallacy-calling trend in this thread.

I don't regard something as a human being unless a sperm and an egg combine.

If an egg hasn't been fertilized by a sperm, then I'm not going to care.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

I agree absolutely. I think it's a fundamental inconsistency that a fetus is sacred in a way that an unfertilized egg or some spunk in a sock is not. None of the three is a viable organism.

So we got two options, if we're interested in not being hypocritical. Either we begin a national program of mandatory and universal monthly impregnation to prevent wasted eggs (runoff spunk will of course be caught and refrigerated for future use). We'll only need four or five dudes to provide enough gravy, everybody else can keep their supply of precious little swimmers safe and snug downstairs, where God intended them to be. This will of course require a nationwide ban on pornography and, naturally, all movies rated higher than PG-13. And the new line of "boy short" swimsuits.

Or, alternatively, we could shut the fuck up about the precious culture of life and Jimmy Swaggart could continue to blow millions of babies across some hooker's jugs.

Certainly. Abstinence until marraige is not necessarily murder, however. OMG straw man!

Sorry. I just wanted to be the one to start the fallacy-calling trend in this thread.
Oh, I was just quoting the conclusion of an argument very similar to this thread topic. The argument goes that everytime you do not have sex you are preventing a baby from being born. Thus, when a woman refuses to have sex, she is killing an unborn baby. Abstinence is murder. Not something I agree with but a fun little joke. :D

Red herring!

Masturbation feels good. Don't see why something harmless should be a sin, especially if it's fun.

As for babies. Until it develops a nervous system (ie. specialised nervous cells) it is nothing more than a bunch of cells, like the bacteria you kill when you wash your hands.

I demand that the full song is posted right now!

I don't regard something as a human being unless a sperm and an egg combine.

If an egg hasn't been fertilized by a sperm, then I'm not going to care.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Yeah...unless the two have joined, it's not really life.

A can't believe that you just said a fetus is disposable. That's horrible, man. A heartbeat of a fetus can be heard after 21 days of pregancy. I dare anyone to say that a heartbeat does not signify life. Abortion = irrisponsible, plain and simple.

I can understand how it may seem like a very cruel thing to say. I do not think it is however, since as I said it is only a potential human. It is already 'a life', sure, but there's 'life' even in a glass of drinking water. Even though it is slightly different when the baby is already growing - and have gotten quite a bit on the way - in someones womb, I do not consider an unborn child to be worth as much as a human life (and by 'human' I mean someone who has actually been born).

Abortion - irrisponsible? Getting in the situation of being pregnant unwillingly can be irresponsible, yes, but I think it's quite radical to claim all abortion to be irrisponsible. Think: 15 year old girl who raped in a bush, gets pregnant. What shall we do in this scenario? Either way, as far as I am concerned, as long as the potential human life is still growing inside someones womb, it's a part of the womans body - and I think that women should be able to do with their bodies as they please.

OR IS IT? *starts hymning*

"Let the heathens spill theirs, on the dusty ground
God will make them pay, for each sperm that can't be found"

Do you think that 'every sperm is sacred', and that the spilling of sperms via masturbation or protected sex is a waste? (Or are you an extreme, like I reckon Jesussaves is, and think that it's MURDER even?) And what about abortion?

I say: Have as much sex as you want. If you can't find a woman to masturbate in - do it yourself. Abortion should be allowed pretty much until the water brakes: unborn children are just potential humans, much like sperms are - they do not have the intellect that separates us from animals and are thus disposable.

What do y'all think?

*fetches popcorn*

Though as soon as the water breaks, suddenly they're intelligent....we should be allowed to kill new borns and the mentally challenged as well!

I demand that the full song is posted right now!

i agree and also demand that 'i like chinese' be posted

Not a sin.
If it was murder, then most (if not all) guys on here would be guilty of genocide, and that isn't something I like to think about.

every sperm is sacred
every sperm is true...
oh dear god ive forgoten it
i know the bruces song however and allways look on the bright side of life
and the chiken song! :D

Though as soon as the water breaks, suddenly they're intelligent....we should be allowed to kill new borns and the mentally challenged as well!

Dude, that's not what I said. Even I have a limit when I think it's wrong to kill someone. I claim: I don't think you should be able to kill humans at will. I also claim: I don't think a potential human life really counts as a life until it has left the womb and emerged into the world.

alltogether now..Immanual Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable

Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table

David Hume could out consume
Schopenhauer and Hegel

And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel

There's nothing Nietzche couldn't teach ya
'Bout the raising of the wrist
Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed


John Stuart Mill, of his own free will
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill

Plato they say, could stick it away
Half a crate of whiskey every day

Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle
Hobbes was fond of his dram

And Rene' Descartes was a drunken fart
"I drink, therefore I am"

Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed
A lovely little thinker
But a bugger when he's pissed

sorry i got carried away. back to abortion. yes. riskey buisness what?

Don't you people know how to use Google?

DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!

I voted yes for the pure purpose of making not having sex a sin. I want action!!!

Dude, that's not what I said. Even I have a limit when I think it's wrong to kill someone. I claim: I don't think you should be able to kill humans at will. I also claim: I don't think a potential human life really counts as a life until it has left the womb and emerged into the world.

I know dude, just that the way you phrased it originally came off sounding real cold hearted.

Don't you people know how to use Google?

DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!

well it wasnt my favorit of the films anyway

Encore!

I know dude, just that the way you phrased it originally came off sounding real cold hearted.

And intentionally so - what's a thread if everyone is just nodding their heads agreeingly? I want action!

Though as soon as the water breaks, suddenly they're intelligent....we should be allowed to kill new borns and the mentally challenged as well!

well that's what the nazi's said anyway....


hmmm, well to respond to the post - i agree with others that not all fetus's/sperm equal and should all go on to creat babies.

as well as the rape scenario - how about where one fetus must be murdered (well i'm not scared of the phrase - i eat meat so murdering animals is fine in context....and before someone says something - we ARE animals!) to save the other(s) in womb, or where the potential person would be mentally/physically damaged in some way?

i say sperms aren't sacred and should be quite happily scattered over the shower curtain/sock/porn mag or in man/woman/sheep of choice (as long as they're a consenting adult - sheep too)

well it wasnt my favorit of the films anyway

It was my favourite by far. The Search for the Holy Grail was good, but overrated. Same thing goes for Life of Brian, and And Now for Something Completely Different is just a bunch of old sketches from the tv show.

I can understand how it may seem like a very cruel thing to say. I do not think it is however, since as I said it is only a potential human. It is already 'a life', sure, but there's 'life' even in a glass of drinking water. Even though it is slightly different when the baby is already growing - and have gotten quite a bit on the way - in someones womb, I do not consider an unborn child to be worth as much as a human life (and by 'human' I mean someone who has actually been born).

Abortion - irrisponsible? Getting in the situation of being pregnant unwillingly can be irresponsible, yes, but I think it's quite radical to claim all abortion to be irrisponsible. Think: 15 year old girl who raped in a bush, gets pregnant. What shall we do in this scenario? Either way, as far as I am concerned, as long as the potential human life is still growing inside someones womb, it's a part of the womans body - and I think that women should be able to do with their bodies as they please.

Actually I don't think you do understand...If a child gets raped then I understand, and believe that they should have that choice. But, I'd like to tell you the story of this lady who came to my school and talked about abortion...She told this story of a young girl, 15 years old, named Lisa. She wasn't much of a party girl, she had friends and everything, did her homework, obeyed her parents for the most part, and was generally a respectable child. One day, as she is walking home from school, she is grabbed from behind and dragged to an alley and raped. A few days later, she finds out that she is pregnant. She talks to one of her friends, who tells her "I wouldn't have the baby, and I don't think I could stand it; I'd look at that child and see a reminder of the worst day of my life." Lisa talks to another of her friends, who tells her basically the same thing. Eventually, she has made a decision; she is going to have the baby and give it up for adoption. And do you know who Lisa was? The speaker's mother. She thanked her mother for not giving in and ending her life before she could even live it.

Now, go ahead; tell me exactly what is wrong with having the baby and giving it up for adoption?

I'm too lazy to google :p

Thanks dude(tte) :fluffle:

i say sperms aren't sacred and should be quite happily scattered over the shower curtain/sock/porn mag or in man/woman/sheep of choice (as long as they're a consenting adult - sheep too)
Hmmm so you say clean dishes AREN'T on that list?

Actually I don't think you do understand...If a child gets raped then I understand, and believe that they should have that choice. But, I'd like to tell you the story of this lady who came to my school and talked about abortion...She told this story of a young girl, 15 years old, named Lisa. She wasn't much of a party girl, she had friends and everything, did her homework, obeyed her parents for the most part, and was generally a respectable child. One day, as she is walking home from school, she is grabbed from behind and dragged to an alley and raped. A few days later, she finds out that she is pregnant. She talks to one of her friends, who tells her "I wouldn't have the baby, and I don't think I could stand it; I'd look at that child and see a reminder of the worst day of my life." Lisa talks to another of her friends, who tells her basically the same thing. Eventually, she has made a decision; she is going to have the baby and give it up for adoption. And do you know who Lisa was? The speaker's mother. She thanked her mother for not giving in and ending her life before she could even live it.

Now, go ahead; tell me exactly what is wrong with having the baby and giving it up for adoption?

What's wrong with it is you have to sit through bullshit assemblies at school. If that woman hadn't been born, that's a whole hour you wouldn't have wasted.

What's wrong with it is you have to sit through bullshit assemblies at school. If that woman hadn't been born, that's a whole hour you wouldn't have wasted.

Actually, that hour probably would have been wasted doing something entirely different.

I say: Have as much sex as you want. If you can't find a woman to masturbate in - do it yourself.

Oh man, someone is going to be sleeping alone for the next decade!

What's wrong with it is you have to sit through bullshit assemblies at school. If that woman hadn't been born, that's a whole hour you wouldn't have wasted.

Indeed; bullshit assemblies you can actually learn something from.

Although I admit, it was rather boring.

Actually I don't think you do understand...If a child gets raped then I understand, and believe that they should have that choice. But, I'd like to tell you the story of this lady who came to my school and talked about abortion...She told this story of a young girl, 15 years old, named Lisa. She wasn't much of a party girl, she had friends and everything, did her homework, obeyed her parents for the most part, and was generally a respectable child. One day, as she is walking home from school, she is grabbed from behind and dragged to an alley and raped. A few days later, she finds out that she is pregnant. She talks to one of her friends, who tells her "I wouldn't have the baby, and I don't think I could stand it; I'd look at that child and see a reminder of the worst day of my life." Lisa talks to another of her friends, who tells her basically the same thing. Eventually, she has made a decision; she is going to have the baby and give it up for adoption. And do you know who Lisa was? The speaker's mother. She thanked her mother for not giving in and ending her life before she could even live it.

Now, go ahead; tell me exactly what is wrong with having the baby and giving it up for adoption?


Holy shit you are ignorant. By your "logic", impregnating people by raping them is ok, since a human life is worth more than a rape is bad. Holy shit, I didn't know it was like that! Imma go out and rape myself some 15 year old kid right now, since it's OK! Of course that dudette is happy to be a live.

I wasn't planned for, and I'm one lucky prick to be here right now. But you know what? So is everyone. "We are all winners" since we managed to beat millions and millions of competing sperms to that egg.

What's wrong with it is you have to sit through bullshit assemblies at school. If that woman hadn't been born, that's a whole hour you wouldn't have wasted.

AHAHAHAH - Right on the money, mate!

I sperm does not exibit all characteristics that define wether something is biologicly alive, while an embyo does. More than that, it is Human Life. The destruction of Human life for the mere convience of others is a crime.

Am I allowed to Abort the life of the guy in the next Cubical so I can get that promotion instead of him?

Am I allowed to Abort the life of the school bully who just likes to shove people around?

Am I allowed to Abort the life of my parrents in order to collect my iheretence?

For that matter, are people allowed to abort the life of a retarded child because it is a physical and emotional strain on their lifestyle?

No, I'm not. Why? Because we value human life. I see a ferilized embyo as no different. It is human and it is alive, destroying it intentionaly is Murder.

There are, naturaly, exceptions if the pregnancy is threatening the mother's life, but then it is not a matter of protecting life, but chooseing 1 life over another, which is a difficult choice in itself.

Holy shit you are ignorant. By your "logic", impregnating people by raping them is ok, since a human life is worth more than a rape is bad. Holy shit, I didn't know it was like that! Imma go out and rape myself some 15 year old kid right now, since it's OK! Of course that dudette is happy to be a live.

I wasn't planned for, and I'm one lucky prick to be here right now. But you know what? So is everyone. "We are all winners" since we managed to beat millions and millions of competing sperms to that egg.

Did I ever say that raping someone is ok? No, I didn't. Rape is possibly the worst crime to commit, it scars emotionally and physically. I was trying to make a point; although I think that rape victims should be able to have an abortion, I commend this woman for having the courage to go through with birth.

And, you still haven't answered my question: What is wrong with giving birth and giving the child up for adoption if you don't want it? Nothing.

Yar, I spill me syrup over the booty.

Yar, women who have abortions are sluts who are going to Davey Jones's locker!

I can't believe that a forum like this (which is a pretty ridiculous topic to talk about in the first place--no one is going to change anyone's minds) has a topic heading quoting the best comedy troupe to have left the British shores...

And to have the two topics coinside...weird and sad...

With that said, I would like to second whoever said that they wanted to see the I Like Chinese lyrics, and I would like these followed up with either "I Bet You They Won't Play This Song On The Radio" or "Sit On My Face". Also, I can google, but I know the songs almost well enough to post them from memory...I just feel that others should be enlightened to their presence.

I sperm does not exibit all characteristics that define wether something is biologicly alive, while an embyo does. More than that, it is Human Life. The destruction of Human life for the mere convience of others is a crime.

Not by your definition, no, since abortion is legal in most parts of the world.

Am I allowed to Abort the life of the guy in the next Cubical so I can get that promotion instead of him?

Am I allowed to Abort the life of the school bully who just likes to shove people around?

Am I allowed to Abort the life of my parrents in order to collect my iheretence?

Are you allowed to amputate your arms if you want to? Yes - bing, you hit the jackpot. An unborn child is a part of a womans body. We are all just big blobs of cells anyway, that an undeveloped child should have a higher conscious comparable to that of humans is to me BS.

For that matter, are people allowed to abort the life of a retarded child because it is a physical and emotional strain on their lifestyle?

If it's before that child is born - yes, they are.

There are, naturaly, exceptions if the pregnancy is threatening the mother's life

Eh? What about a raped 15 year old kid who would comitt suicide if she would be forced to go through with giving birth to the child of her rapist?

Indeed; bullshit assemblies you can actually learn something from.

Learn something from? Some lady throws you a tearjerker and that's education? Get the hell out. Why don't they bring in some young girls who had all the potential in the world, who got knocked up, and put everything on hold to care for the kid as a single mom and wind up unfulfilled, bitter, and baby-ridden crones by twenty-six, plagued by a condition known as "Huggie fingers" and the grinding poverty caused by the impossibility of meeting the expense of childcare while working some shitty part time job. Or why not get some testimonials of the fabulous American foster home system, so that everyone knows just how great it is to be put up for adoption.

This "assembly" was nothing more than a very blunt instrument of propaganda. I sincerely hope you don't go to public school.

Yar, I spill me syrup over the booty.

Yar, women who have abortions are sluts.

you are one swashbuckling son of a gun.

and it was me who wanted the chinese lyrics. in fact, let's just get the entire 'Monty Python Sings' cd

A can't believe that you just said a fetus is disposable. That's horrible, man. A heartbeat of a fetus can be heard after 21 days of pregancy. I dare anyone to say that a heartbeat does not signify life. Abortion = irrisponsible, plain and simple.

I completely and utterly agree. by the time they are 4 months they have a soul. you want to know the way they give abortions to babies of 8 months? they open up the mother...the take out the unborn HUMAN BEING...they sick a needle of some sort in its head..and have that suck out its internal organs. If youre going to have sex without protection..expect a child.

Holy shit you are ignorant. By your "logic", impregnating people by raping them is ok, since a human life is worth more than a rape is bad. Holy shit, I didn't know it was like that! Imma go out and rape myself some 15 year old kid right now, since it's OK! Of course that dudette is happy to be a live. No, thats a compleatly wrong interpretation of what he said. His point was that abortion, even from a pregnancy due to rape, is murder. Rape is still bad, and the son of a bitch should be put away, but just because you had a traumatizeing experience doesn't give you the right to kill someone.

I wasn't planned for, and I'm one lucky prick to be here right now. But you know what? So is everyone. "We are all winners" since we managed to beat millions and millions of competing sperms to that egg. True, so why should you destroy the life of that embyo that was lucky enough to be conceaved in the first place? What right does anyone else have to say wether an unborn child should be stripped of the right to life?

Learn something from? Some lady throws you a tearjerker and that's education? Get the hell out. Why don't they bring in some young girls who had all the potential in the world, who got knocked up, and put everything on hold to care for the kid as a single mom and wind up unfulfilled, bitter, and baby-ridden crones by twenty-six, plagued by a condition known as "Huggie fingers" and the grinding poverty caused by the impossibility of meeting the expense of childcare while working some shitty part time job. Or why not get some testimonials of the fabulous American foster home system, so that everyone knows just how great it is to be put up for adoption.

This "assembly" was nothing more than a very blunt instrument of propaganda. I sincerely hope you don't go to public school.


Yar, put the baby up for adoption, we need a new shipmate after me pirates go overboard

well that's what the nazi's said anyway....


hmmm, well to respond to the post - i agree with others that not all fetus's/sperm equal and should all go on to creat babies.

as well as the rape scenario - how about where one fetus must be murdered (well i'm not scared of the phrase - i eat meat so murdering animals is fine in context....and before someone says something - we ARE animals!) to save the other(s) in womb, or where the potential person would be mentally/physically damaged in some way?

i say sperms aren't sacred and should be quite happily scattered over the shower curtain/sock/porn mag or in man/woman/sheep of choice (as long as they're a consenting adult - sheep too)

Either you're a cannibal [which is cool with me] or that is some wicked 'context'

And intentionally so - what's a thread if everyone is just nodding their heads agreeingly? I want action!

Well if there is one kind of thread where I avoid the action, it's abortion threads, i'm just here to make jokes :) See above for example!

I see a ferilized embyo as no different. It is human and it is alive, destroying it intentionaly is Murder.

You see it incorrectly. Until it pokes its little head out mommy's punani, a fertilized embryo isn't alive. It's a parasite. It's an organ. It can't survive on its own, so if it is a living animal, it is a failure. An embryo is alive when it can survive.

I think we're going to need more popcorn, given the general thrust of your post.
Cute!! :cool:

I can't believe that a forum like this (which is a pretty ridiculous topic to talk about in the first place--no one is going to change anyone's minds) has a topic heading quoting the best comedy troupe to have left the British shores...

Well, you know what? Might as well give up on discussing anything, anywhere - ever. Changing someones mind in a discussion forum is no more easy than changing someones mind in a real life discussion - not if you take what you read and type seriously in an internet forum. Atheists vs. Religious = nothing has ever come out of this debate on the internet, and nothing ever will come out of it either. But what's the difference between when an Atheist and a Relgious person are discussing their faiths in real life? Eh?

And, you still haven't answered my question: What is wrong with giving birth and giving the child up for adoption if you don't want it?

To answer that question: If you *want* to do that, nothing is of course wrong with it. Being *forced* to do it would be cruelty beyond description, however. You should be given the choice.

The grand britania - Awesome. Bravo!

I believe that abortion is fine - so long as it's done humanely. If someone wants an abortion, the chances are good that that baby would not have a good childhood and (I don't mean this offensively! *is flamed wildly*) may end up doing the exact same thing as their parents. As someone pointed out, people kill mice. Although I hate it when it's done cruelly or unnecessarily, if the mouse was going to be killed/miserable anyway, I agree that a painless killing is reasonable. (On that same note, I find it vaguely ironic that a lot of the people who are against abortion are avid hunters... *cough*)

Oh, and the sperm thing? Good GRIEF.

No, thats a compleatly wrong interpretation of what he said. His point was that abortion, even from a pregnancy due to rape, is murder. Rape is still bad, and the son of a bitch should be put away, but just because you had a traumatizeing experience doesn't give you the right to kill someone.

True, so why should you destroy the life of that embyo that was lucky enough to be conceaved in the first place? What right does anyone else have to say wether an unborn child should be stripped of the right to life?

At least someone got the gist of what I said. :)

You see it incorrectly. Until it pokes its little head out mommy's punani, a fertilized embryo isn't alive. It's a parasite. It's an organ. It can't survive on its own, so if it is a living animal, it is a failure. An embryo is alive when it can survive.

ok so to you ..this means that a child cannot survive until the age of 8-9 since it cannot support itself? or am i completely misconstruing this...

[\QUOTE]And, you still haven't answered my question: What is wrong with giving birth and giving the child up for adoption if you don't want it? Nothing.[/QUOTE]

Nothings wrong with it except the huge strain on the adoption services at the moment anyway, why overwhelm it even more with children of rpe victems who will just live in a hostel for 18 yrs and then get kicked out into the big bad world.

The reason that Abortion was legalised in Britain was due to the increasing number of deaths due to botched abortions done in back allys or ifections piced up when they were having the abortion, it was legalised because it was going to happen so why not give people safe and clean enviroments and professionals to have it done by.

I feel that there is a sertain stage in development where the feotus dose change from being a collection of cells to being a human life. According to current British law 21 weeks is the latest an abortion can take place, but this is going to be reduced as resent tests have shown the feotuses yawning, sucking thumbs and even using the mothers bladder as a trampoline. I am i favour of abortion but at a resonable cut off point unless the child is mentaly anf physicaly impeared.

I completely and utterly agree. by the time they are 4 months they have a soul. you want to know the way they give abortions to babies of 8 months? they open up the mother...the take out the unborn HUMAN BEING...they sick a needle of some sort in its head..and have that suck out its internal organs. If youre going to have sex without protection..expect a child.

Newsflash: Not everyone who goes through with an abortion got pregnant due to unprotected sex. Condoms and p-pills do not always work, there is a margin of error. Also, there's the rape scenario. Furthermore, what proof do you have that they have "souls" when they are 4 months, and where did you read it? The Onion?

why should you destroy the life of that embyo that was lucky enough to be conceaved in the first place? What right does anyone else have to say wether an unborn child should be stripped of the right to life?

What right does anyone have to forbid a woman from doing what she wants with her body, including chopping off her arms or killing whatever living organisms connected to her being? I think it's pretty funny when men wants to forbid abortion even though we cannot ever grasp what it would be like to go through with an unwanted pregnancy.

As previously stated, an unborn child is still only potential human life. Do you think it's human life as soon as the sperm penetrates the egg?

Not by your definition, no, since abortion is legal in most parts of the world. So I should be allowed to kill anyone I desire and it wont matter? I am aware of the hipocracy of haveing laws against murder but not haveing laws against abortion. That was actualy my point: the hoppocracy of it all.

[Are you allowed to amputate your arms if you want to? Yes - bing, you hit the jackpot. An unborn child is a part of a womans body. We are all just big blobs of cells anyway, that an undeveloped child should have a higher conscious comparable to that of humans is to me BS. Did I say anything about a higher level of conciousness? No I didn't. Can you amputate your arms if you want? No you cant, you's be placed in a mental institution for "your own protection". The fetus is not just another apendage of the woman, it is an indevidual organism that is atatched(albeit, parisiticly) to another organism for a period of time. Even after birth, it is tied to the mother through the umbilical cord, and dependence on milk even after that.

If it's before that child is born - yes, they are. But that child has not chance of obtaining a higher level of conciousness!! It has not right to life!!!

For those not aware, that was sarcasm, showing this fool that he is being a hippocritical jackass.



Eh? What about a raped 15 year old kid who would comitt suicide if she would be forced to go through with giving birth to the child of her rapist? She needs serrious mental help, as she is obbviously not cappable of makeing a rational decission.

I believe it should be the agreed consent of both partners whether to keep it or not, assuming both had agreed to having sex in the first place. After all, you wouldn't want some old geezers in Washington to tell you how to raise your child, would you?

:gundge:

That just looks... wrong.

ok so to you ..this means that a child cannot survive until the age of 8-9 since it cannot support itself? or am i completely misconstruing this...

That's not the point, the point is that a fertilized embryo is much like a parasite and thus disposable.

ok im leaving this...the frustration is overwhelming me. and obviously ...some guys seem to think what its like to go through child birth. i realize that some births can be due to a condom or a birth control pill that doesnt always work. what im trying to get through to you people is that its wrong. even the Bible says it. why dont you try reading it ?

so are newborns until they are about 8-9 years old.

Learn something from? Some lady throws you a tearjerker and that's education? Get the hell out. Why don't they bring in some young girls who had all the potential in the world, who got knocked up, and put everything on hold to care for the kid as a single mom and wind up unfulfilled, bitter, and baby-ridden crones by twenty-six, plagued by a condition known as "Huggie fingers" and the grinding poverty caused by the impossibility of meeting the expense of childcare while working some shitty part time job. Or why not get some testimonials of the fabulous American foster home system, so that everyone knows just how great it is to be put up for adoption.

This "assembly" was nothing more than a very blunt instrument of propaganda. I sincerely hope you don't go to public school.

Personally, I'd tell them girls that they shouldn't have been boozing up and letting the captain of the football team nail them at 15. Obviously the captain of the football team never amounts to shit in life, while if she had of banged the local computer genius, they'd be rich by now and it would be some nanny who speaks three words of english with the Huggie fingers right about now.

BTW this is a JOKE reply, so don't gimme any of this 'what if they were raped' crap, most of the time rape has nothing to do with it anyway and if they were raped I obviously wouldn't say these things to them, what kind of cold-hearted son-of-a-bitch do you people think I am? :D

Well, stone me and call me Onan!

ok im leaving this...the frustration is overwhelming me. and obviously ...some guys seem to think what its like to go through child birth. i realize that some births can be due to a condom or a birth control pill that doesnt always work. what im trying to get through to you people is that its wrong. even the Bible says it. why dont you try reading it ? I don't mean to sound calyst, and I take it that you agree with me that Abortion is wrong, but this brings up a point that I would like to express

I don't care what it's like to go through childbirth, discomfort and pain do not excuse murder.

Did I say anything about a higher level of conciousness? No I didn't.

Then what are you arguing about?

Can you amputate your arms if you want? No you cant, you's be placed in a mental institution for "your own protection".[quote]

I suggest you get Discovery channel, and start watching it a bit. I saw a documentary a while ago on people who actually *chose* to amputate completely healthy limbs like legs and arms. I agree that these people were nutcases, but they seemed completely normal, and were walking (or, later, rolling along in wheelchairs) the streets just like you and me.

[quote]The fetus is not just another apendage of the woman, it is an indevidual organism that is atatched(albeit, parisiticly) to another organism for a period of time.

So is a parasite.

Even after birth, it is tied to the mother through the umbilical cord, and dependence on milk even after that.

But that child has not chance of obtaining a higher level of conciousness!! It has not right to life!!!

For those not aware, that was sarcasm, showing this fool that he is being a hippocritical jackass.

That's your way of trying to make a point? Kay, good effort sonny, but it didn't get through.

She needs serrious mental help, as she is obbviously not cappable of makeing a rational decission.

Are you talking to me? I'm all man, baby.

I sperm does not exibit all characteristics that define wether something is biologicly alive, while an embyo does. More than that, it is Human Life. Why? Because it's made of multiple cells? Because it's surviving in a human woman? (At this point it sounds a tad like a yeast infection ...) What makes a clutch of grown cells Human Life?
The destruction of Human life for the mere convience of others is a crime.

Am I allowed to Abort the life of the guy in the next Cubical so I can get that promotion instead of him?

Am I allowed to Abort the life of the school bully who just likes to shove people around?

Am I allowed to Abort the life of my parrents in order to collect my iheretence?

For that matter, are people allowed to abort the life of a retarded child because it is a physical and emotional strain on their lifestyle?

No, I'm not. Why? Because we value human life. I see a ferTilized embyo as no different. It is human and it is alive, destroying it intentionaly is Murder.
Because you do not have a time travel machine (TMK) and did not contribute the sperm/egg needed to create any of those particular bastards. Also, it's kind of hard to abort in the 107th trimester or so.
As far as the kid goes, the above applies, but if you know you can't give your mentally disabled kid the life/love/expensive shit it needs prior to delivery, abortion is a viable option. If you've already had the kid, some hospitals do have programs where the differntly-abled bunble of joy can grow up shitting itself with other kids whose folks couldn't deal. For the most part, however, one is SOL.

There are, naturaly, exceptions if the pregnancy is threatening the mother's life, but then it is not a matter of protecting life, but chooseing 1 life over another, which is a difficult choice in itself.
Hm. Potential life that if it is threatening the mother's life may very well die before the age of reson itself or a certified life… I'm sorry, that may have been harsh.

what im trying to get through to you people is that its wrong. even the Bible says it. why dont you try reading it ?I very much doubt there is any point in the bible where abortion is discussed or mentioned. Not in the last place because it wasn't a procedure they could do.

ok so to you ..this means that a child cannot survive until the age of 8-9 since it cannot support itself? or am i completely misconstruing this...

No, I'm saying that the fetus cannot survive outside the womb until the sixth or seventh month and thus is not a viable organism.

I'm saying that the "heartbeat" thing quoted left and right is totally arbitrary. A kid can't hit a sweet fadeaway jumper until he turns ten, and as far as I can tell, that's a surer sign of life than a heartbeat.

I'm saying that all the crap about "beating hearts" and the "culture of life" is some headtrip bullshit concocted by people who can't mind their own damn business. I may have been skating over this stuff before, but that's only because I'm campaigning for NS nicest guy. Abortion is a big friggin decision. First, foremost, and only, it is a decision that belongs to the lady who's most directly affected by it. This means self-righteous asswads need to stop interfering a) with laws and b) by trying to impose their God-mandated morality by booking criminal assemblies at schools. Period.

But this argument has been made again and again. So I'm trying Japfetish's approach and now I'm going to start imposing my morality, one which dictates consistency. So, all you self-righteous puds: Either shut up or start saving your jizz.

I completely and utterly agree. by the time they are 4 months they have a soul. you want to know the way they give abortions to babies of 8 months? they open up the mother...the take out the unborn HUMAN BEING...they sick a needle of some sort in its head..and have that suck out its internal organs. If youre going to have sex without protection..expect a child.

As long as you are talking facts, did you know that there is absolutly no physical or scientifical proof that anything even remotely close to what a soul is usually defined as even exists? Also, 'unborn' human being? If it hasn't been born, are you sure its human?

On another note, unborns, embryos, fetuses, etc, are just masses of cells forming into another organism. Are you saying that it should be illegal to wash your hands, poke someone, or do anything that would kill the cells of a different organism, or a fellow human being?

Well, stone me and call me Onan!The problem with Onan wasn't that he spilled his seed, but that he refused to impregnate his brothers widow (which he was duty-bound to do).

I very much doubt there is any point in the bible where abortion is discussed or mentioned. Not in the last place because it wasn't a procedure they could do.

ok well it is in the Bible. trust me...i dont know how it is in there...but ive seen it.

I prefer late abortions... let's say, some 30 years after birth... *gets Steyr AUG*

what im trying to get through to you people is that its wrong. even the Bible says it. why dont you try reading it ?

STFU and GTFO. I wish people would stop thinking that that book of fairytales is actually a reliable source for anything. I respect people of all religions as long as they keep them to themselves.

ok im leaving this...the frustration is overwhelming me. and obviously ...some guys seem to think what its like to go through child birth. i realize that some births can be due to a condom or a birth control pill that doesnt always work. what im trying to get through to you people is that its wrong. even the Bible says it. why dont you try reading it ?

I couldn't understand half of that, but seeing as how you keep talking about how guys don't know what it's like to be a woman, pregnant etc, I am assuming you have been pregnant, obviouly either giving birth or having an abortion, at some point in your life?

Why? Because it's made of multiple cells? Because it's surviving in a human woman? (At this point it sounds a tad like a yeast infection ...) What makes a clutch of grown cells Human Life? A little thing called "DNA".

Because you do not have a time travel machine (TMK) and did not contribute the sperm/egg needed to create any of those particular bastards. Also, it's kind of hard to abort in the 107th trimester or so.
As far as the kid goes, the above applies, but if you know you can't give your mentally disabled kid the life/love/expensive shit it needs prior to delivery, abortion is a viable option. No, it's not, adoption, however, is.


Hm. Potential life that if it is threatening the mother's life may very well die before the age of reson itself or a certified life… I'm sorry, that may have been harsh. It is life, but sometimes life must be sacrificed in order to preserve life. It is not a decission I would be comfortable makeing, but sometimes such a decission must be made.

ok im leaving this...the frustration is overwhelming me. and obviously ...some guys seem to think what its like to go through child birth. i realize that some births can be due to a condom or a birth control pill that doesnt always work. what im trying to get through to you people is that its wrong. even the Bible says it. why dont you try reading it ?

Oh well, if the Bible says it bad then lets all do what the Bible says, Jebodia you go Grab the wood stakes, i'll go round up the witches. After the burning we'll all go love thy neighbour!!! :fluffle:

Hypocracy of the Bible me thinks!!!

As a side note, it's been my personal observation that the most vehement pro-lifers tend to be young males, say high school to middle 20s. I'm curious as to how this board supports or refutes this observation.

So if you don't mind contributing, I'll even start. 26, male, pro-choice.

ok well it is in the Bible. trust me...i dont know how it is in there...but ive seen it.If there is anything remotely like it in there, it's a matter of interpretation. Trust me..
The whole concept of induced abortion didn't exist at that time. And you can't really fault women for natural abortions (which are quite natural, and quite frequent.)

18, Male, Pro life for non-religeous, moral reasons.

I'm of the opinion that brain activity = life. Mice have a heartbeat. We kill them all the time. Braindead people have a heartbeat, but we pull the plug. I think we should figure out where to draw the line between a fetus and a person by determining when the brain develops sufficiently to think and feel.

Why should we? Who are we to determine which humans qualifies as "persons" and which don't?

Hey, while we are at it, why don't we kill all the retards aswell. Since they have very low brain activity and IQ. I think we should start by killing ALL the Americans, since I think being an American doesn't qualifiy you for being a person.

Masturbation feels good. Don't see why something harmless should be a sin, especially if it's fun.

As for babies. Until it develops a nervous system (ie. specialised nervous cells) it is nothing more than a bunch of cells, like the bacteria you kill when you wash your hands.

No, bacteria is bacteria. A baby is a human being, a homo sapiens.

16, Male, Pro choice

Are you talking to me? I'm all man, baby.

No, he was talking about the 15 year old preggers chick who wanted to kill herself....

So I guess, you are all 'unable to read', BABY!


NOTE : sorry, I'm just being a moron, don't take this too seriously.

:gundge: <==== Saved up his sacred man-juices for so long, they changed colour! KA-CHING!

[QUOTE=Japfetish]I can understand how it may seem like a very cruel thing to say. I do not think it is however, since as I said it is only a potential human. It is already 'a life', sure, but there's 'life' even in a glass of drinking water. Even though it is slightly different when the baby is already growing - and have gotten quite a bit on the way - in someones womb, I do not consider an unborn child to be worth as much as a human life (and by 'human' I mean someone who has actually been born).[/qoute]

Potential human? What are you talking about? That baby, is a homo sapiens. A human. Yes, its not as developed as a human of say, age 23. But its still a human, no doubt. What else would it be?

I mean, if we start judging humans on what level of development they are currently in, then I say we start killing all those annoying 5 year olds aswell!

No, he was talking about the 15 year old preggers chick who wanted to kill herself....

So I guess, you are all 'unable to read', BABY!


NOTE : sorry, I'm just being a moron, don't take this too seriously.

:gundge: <==== Saved up his sacred man-juices for so long, they changed colour! KA-CHING!

Man, why didn't you throw up the mormon flag sooner? I would have cooled it with the c-u-r-s-i-n-g. Just kidding. I wouldn't.

19, Male, Pro Choice.

Abortion - irrisponsible? Getting in the situation of being pregnant unwillingly can be irresponsible, yes, but I think it's quite radical to claim all abortion to be irrisponsible. Think: 15 year old girl who raped in a bush, gets pregnant. What shall we do in this scenario? Either way, as far as I am concerned, as long as the potential human life is still growing inside someones womb, it's a part of the womans body - and I think that women should be able to do with their bodies as they please.

Oh please, don't give me that. Every pro-abortionists starts whining about rape and incest as soon as someone starts talking about Abortion. Here's a fact for you, those situations don't even count for 1% of all abortions. In those cases abortion could be considered a measure, but fact is most abortions are done under such circumstances.

And what says its a part of the womens body just because its inside her? Heck, if I stick my finger in your ass is my finger then a part of your body? Is my finger then YOURS to do which as you wish?

A little thing called "DNA".

No, it's not, adoption, however, is.


It is life, but sometimes life must be sacrificed in order to preserve life. It is not a decission I would be comfortable makeing, but sometimes such a decission must be made.

EVERY THING HAS DNA YOU ANALY RETENTIVE SHIT, EVEN KIWI HAVE DNA!!!

(As a side note, next time someone tells you we are 99.9% ape, just remind them we are also 70% Bannana as well)

(16, female, prochoice)

Mabye this will settle things. Everyone keeps mentioning "life" so here is the definition:

Main Entry: life
Pronunciation: 'lIf
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural lives /'lIvz/
Etymology: Middle English lif, from Old English lIf; akin to Old English libban to live -- more at LIVE
1 a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings -- compare VITALISM 1 c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction
2 a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual b : one or more aspects of the process of living <sex life of the frog>
3 : BIOGRAPHY 1
4 : spiritual existence transcending physical death
5 a : the period from birth to death b : a specific phase of earthly existence <adult life> c : the period from an event until death <a judge appointed for life> d : a sentence of imprisonment for the remainder of a convict's life
6 : a way or manner of living
7 : LIVELIHOOD
8 : a vital or living being; specifically : PERSON <many lives were lost in the disaster>
9 : an animating and shaping force or principle
10 : SPIRIT, ANIMATION <there was no life in her dancing>
11 : the form or pattern of something existing in reality <painted from life>
12 : the period of duration, usefulness, or popularity of something <the expected life of flashlight batteries>
13 : the period of existence (as of a subatomic particle) -- compare HALF-LIFE
14 : a property (as resilience or elasticity) of an inanimate substance or object resembling the animate quality of a living being
15 : living beings (as of a particular kind or environment) <forest life>
16 a : human activities b : animate activity and movement <stirrings of life> c : the activities of a given sphere, area, or time <the political life of the country>
17 : one providing interest and vigor <life of the party>
18 : an opportunity for continued viability <gave the patient a new life>
19 capitalized, Christian Science : GOD 1b
20 : something resembling animate life <a grant saved the project's life>

16, male, Prochoice

The reason I'm curious about this age thing is because I used to work down the road from a planned parenthood center and there were always protestors outside. There was a big clump of families (kids too) that were marching against the center, usually on behalf of a local Baptist church. On the other side were a few young women and dudes. But watching this clinic, it seemed like the number one drive-by heckler (of the pro-choice picket) was young dudes.

It seems to be an interesting exception to the old maxim that folks turn more conservative with age.

Man, why didn't you throw up the mormon flag sooner? I would have cooled it with the c-u-r-s-i-n-g. Just kidding. I wouldn't.

Lol, when I first read that I'm thinking....'Why is he calling me a mormon?'

Cursing rules, swear your fucking head off man!

16, male, pro-choice

edit: enjoys long walks on the beach

EVERY THING HAS DNA YOU ANALY RETENTIVE SHIT, EVEN KIWI HAVE DNA!!!

(As a side note, next time someone tells you we are 99.9% ape, just remind them we are also 70% Bannana as well) Holly shit, how fucking stupid are you? The DNA deffines what is and isn't a member of the Homo Sapient species. and for the reckord, the closest I've heard human DNA being to ape is 98%, but I havn't ever confirmed it. Considering how many genes we have, 2% is quite a lot of difference.

A skill for you to learn: Reading comprehention

(As a side note, next time someone tells you we are 99.9% ape, just remind them we are also 70% Bannana as well)(as a sidenote to that sidenote, DNA is far from being the whole story. The machinery that reads the DNA code is at least as important. The exact same sequence of DNA can be used to produce different proteins in different organisms, or even at different sites in the same organism)

The reason I'm curious about this age thing is because I used to work down the road from a planned parenthood center and there were always protestors outside. There was a big clump of families (kids too) that were marching against the center, usually on behalf of a local Baptist church. On the other side were a few young women and dudes. But watching this clinic, it seemed like the number one drive-by heckler (of the pro-choice picket) was young dudes.

It seems to be an interesting exception to the old maxim that folks turn more conservative with age.

What says males can't be against abortion. The whole concept of the baby being somehow "owned" by the mother is absurd.

Holly shit, how fucking stupid are you? The DNA deffines what is and isn't a member of the Homo Sapient species. It so isn't. The concept of 'human being' existed long before the concept of 'DNA'. And so logically it must have been defined before, and thus not in terms of, DNA.

I am personally against abortion. However, I am also open-minded enough to not push my beliefs against other people. And I do not want to see people jumping down stairwells or going to uncertified doctors to kill their babies; I'd rather they just get an abortion. Being against abortion and telling other people not to have abortion are two different things, and I am only the former.

Also, to those who want abortion illegalized, I have an anology: the banning of alcohol. Plenty of people were against alcohol and they banned it. But that didn't work out so well, did it? People just kept doing it, but illegaly. It just made things worse, so it was legalized again. That's the story in a nutshell. The same thing will happen to abortion if it's made illegal because hey, history repeats itself.

It so isn't. The concept of 'human being' existed long before the concept of 'DNA'. And so logically it must have been defined before, and thus not in terms of, DNA.

The concept of DNA has always existed, its just that it wasn't "discovered" until recently.

EVERY THING HAS DNA YOU ANALY RETENTIVE SHIT, EVEN KIWI HAVE DNA!!!

(As a side note, next time someone tells you we are 99.9% ape, just remind them we are also 70% Bannana as well)

I think he was refering to the fact the unborn babies [I forget how to spell feotus? pheoteus? let alone the plural....phetouii?] have the same DNA structure as you or me, regular human beings....as opposed to women carrying a monkey or a banana [or both] and then it coming out as a human once it's born :)

(as a sidenote to that sidenote, DNA is far from being the whole story. The machinery that reads the DNA code is at least as important. The exact same sequence of DNA can be used to produce different proteins in different organisms, or even at different sites in the same organism)

I'm well aware of that, i was simply pointing out the fact that just because soming has a high persent rate dosn't meen that it nessisaraly that close.

Every pro-abortionists starts whining about rape and incest as soon as someone starts talking about Abortion. Here's a fact for you, those situations don't even count for 1% of all abortions.

Admittedly, the rape cases are not as common as the cases of people who just have had some good unprotected sex, or had a condom brake or a p-pill not do what it was supposed to do. Still, the point remains that a woman should be able to do what she wants with her body.

And what says its a part of the womens body

Eh? Well, for one, as you mentioned yourself, it's actually something growing inside her. We are all big walking blobs of living organisms, though we consider ourselves as beings of one consciousness. An unborn kiddo is, as has been stated many a times, much like a parasite.

Heck, if I stick my finger in your ass is my finger then a part of your body? Is my finger then YOURS to do which as you wish?

Hell yeah. Nice metaphor by the way.

I am personally against abortion. However, I am also open-minded enough to not push my beliefs against other people. And I do not want to see people jumping down stairwells or going to uncertified doctors to kill their babies; I'd rather they just get an abortion. Being against abortion and telling other people not to have abortion are two different things, and I am only the former.

Also, to those who want abortion illegalized, I have an anology: the banning of alcohol. Plenty of people were against alcohol and they banned it. But that didn't work out so well, did it? People just kept doing it, but illegaly. It just made things worse, so it was legalized again. That's the story in a nutshell. The same thing will happen to abortion if it's made illegal because hey, history repeats itself.

No, thats talk with no facts. Facts is that in states where abortion has been illegalized, like Poland, abortions have drastically gone down. Not up, but down.

Oh please, don't give me that. Every pro-abortionists starts whining about rape and incest as soon as someone starts talking about Abortion. Here's a fact for you, those situations don't even count for 1% of all abortions. In those cases abortion could be considered a measure, but fact is most abortions are done under such circumstances.

And what says its a part of the womens body just because its inside her? Heck, if I stick my finger in your ass is my finger then a part of your body? Is my finger then YOURS to do which as you wish?
I should certainly hope thet your finger did not grow in my ass due to spem being deposited there. Although birth-by-shit would be efficient, I hate to think of the poor ass sex loving community who, all this time, thought that they were free from the dangers of making spawn.

And just because some feel the need to point out the most outrageous situations to get thy attention does not stop you from being a droning fat-kidneyed ryon. (I've been itching that one all day.)

Holly shit, how fucking stupid are you? The DNA deffines what is and isn't a member of the Homo Sapient species. and for the reckord, the closest I've heard human DNA being to ape is 98%, but I havn't ever confirmed it. Considering how many genes we have, 2% is quite a lot of difference.

A skill for you to learn: Reading comprehention

I work at the MRC in Cambridge, the same building that DeoxyrhiboseNeuclaicacid (DNA) was first discoverd to have a double Helix structure, i think you will find that every living thing has DNA. If you would like me to explain futher, please just ask!

A Skill for YOU to Learn: Talking about what you know about ;)

Only because they didn't have the scientific understand to know what causes the difference between species.

My point in my last post was that a particular set of DNA is unique to the Homo Sapien species and is what creates those characteristics that define a human. The poster I responded to made it sound like I thought that Humans were the only ones with DNA, which, simply put, is retarded.

From a biological perspective, DNA determins species, and since many pro-abortion people tend to claim that it is religion that causes people to be opposed to abortion rather than science, I prefer to take the scientific route in my arguemnts to poit out the flaws in the opposing side.

Might be a bit late to point this out, but there was a skit in the Monty Python movie The Meaning of Life by this name that consisted of a family of, oh, 80 people, singing a song called "Every Sperm is Sacred."

I am personally against abortion. However, I am also open-minded enough to not push my beliefs against other people.

Dude, isn't that sort of contradictory?

No, thats talk with no facts. Facts is that in states where abortion has been illegalized, like Poland, abortions have drastically gone down. Not up, but down.

That is only because abortions require much more complex methods and equipment than drinking alcohol.

Admittedly, the rape cases are not as common as the cases of people who just have had some good unprotected sex, or had a condom brake or a p-pill not do what it was supposed to do. Still, the point remains that a woman should be able to do what she wants with her body.

Thats saying that baby is a part of her body.



Eh? Well, for one, as you mentioned yourself, it's actually something growing inside her. We are all big walking blobs of living organisms, though we consider ourselves as beings of one consciousness. An unborn kiddo is, as has been stated many a times, much like a parasite.

No, that doesn't work. Because according to your argument, newborn babies are parasites aswell. They can't survive without getting daily breastfeeding from their mothers. They are exactly like parasites aswell. Would you like to come out here and say that its okay to kill newborn babies?

The unborn kiddo has a consciousness aswell. The mother choosed to have that baby grow in her (again, not counting rape). If going by that I could say I should own anyone walking on my land, or that the state should own anyone using the sidewalk.



Hell yeah. Nice metaphor by the way.

Seriously, think of it this way. Think about sex. Does the women I enter own my dick too?

That is only because abortions require much more complex methods and equipment than drinking alcohol.

So? Thats how it works. When you ban abortion (except in the most extreme cases) abortion goes down and the silent murder stops.

Dude, isn't that sort of contradictory?
How arrogant are you, dude? Just because you believe in something doesn't mean you have to push it on everybody.

I personally loathe abortion and everything it stands for, but I'd still give a woman the choice... after making her realise that she's actually killing something.

I work at the MRC in Camridge, the same building that DeoxyrhiboseNeuclaicacid (DNA) was first discoverd to have a double Helix structure, i think you will find that every living thing has DNA.

A Skill for YOU to Learn: Talking about what you know about ;)I do know what I'm talking about, you lack the coprehention to notice that I meant that the organisms DNA "tells" us what species it is from, not that humans are the only things with DNA.

You are apparently simply a moron, much more so than most of the pro-abortion croud.

lets just all say one group agrees with abortion and the other doesnt and we'll all call it quits

I should certainly hope thet your finger did not grow in my ass due to spem being deposited there. Although birth-by-shit would be efficient, I hate to think of the poor ass sex loving community who, all this time, thought that they were free from the dangers of making spawn.

And just because some feel the need to point out the most outrageous situations to get thy attention does not stop you from being a droning fat-kidneyed ryon. (I've been itching that one all day.)

Man, if you wan't do admit to being fucked in the ass, do it somewhere else.

Thats saying that baby is a part of her body.

Tadaaa!

No, that doesn't work. Because according to your argument, newborn babies are parasites aswell. They can't survive without getting daily breastfeeding from their mothers. They are exactly like parasites aswell. Would you like to come out here and say that its okay to kill newborn babies?

Firstly, I never made that argument. Newborn babies are indeed very dependant of their mothers, but they are not physically leeches any longer since they are no longer attached.

The unborn kiddo has a consciousness aswell.

So does mice and caterpillars. Your point being?

Seriously, think of it this way. Think about sex. Does the women I enter own my dick too?

Did your dick spring to life inside those women? Does it grow there and leech of their bodies?

No, that doesn't work. Because according to your argument, newborn babies are parasites aswell. They can't survive without getting daily breastfeeding from their mothers. They are exactly like parasites aswell. Would you like to come out here and say that its okay to kill newborn babies?


Parasites are things that live directly off of another organism, feeding from the contents of their system.

Breastfeeding is just taking something that would normally have left anyway.

The concept of DNA has always existed, its just that it wasn't "discovered" until recently.No, DNA 'always' existed, the concept of it didn't exist untyill DNA was discovered. A concept doesn't exist until it is conceived of. Just like a breath doesn't exist untill it's breathed, or a life untill it's lived etc..

Might be a bit late to point this out, but there was a skit in the Monty Python movie The Meaning of Life by this name that consisted of a family of, oh, 80 people, singing a song called "Every Sperm is Sacred."

Yeah, sorry, we covered that already, much fun was had by all :)

You are apparently simply a moron, much more so than most of the pro-abortion croud.
All extremists are morons. Both sides, on every issue - and especially on this one.

Yeah, sorry, we covered that already, much fun was had by all :)
Haha, thanks. I appreciate someone taking the time to mention that.

Tadaaa!



Firstly, I never made that argument. Newborn babies are indeed very dependant of their mothers, but they are not physically leeches any longer since they are no longer attached.

So? Physically doesn't count for shit, they are still technically parasites since they can't survive without almost contact feeding of their mother.



So does mice and caterpillars. Your point being?


Mice and caterpillars aren't humans.



Did your dick spring to life inside those women? Does it grow there and leech of their bodies?

Spring to life? Yes. Grow and leech? No. Its still just all definitions, what says the mother gets the right to own the baby just because it grows inside her? Using that argument I should get to own a helluva lot of things, like that cat walking over my grass right now.

not that this is related, but hey, Japfetish, do you live in Boulder? I think i saw you mention the Onion.

I do know what I'm talking about, you lack the coprehention to notice that I meant that the organisms DNA "tells" us what species it is from, not that humans are the only things with DNA.

You are apparently simply a moron, much more so than most of the pro-abortion croud.

Your words sir were "DNA deffines what is and isn't a member of the Homo Sapient species." So it is you who do not know what they are talking about, however I am fairly sure that your oppinion has become as polerised as mine on the issue of DNA and what it dose or dose not do, so i suggest we simply agree to dissagree like gentlemen.

Parasites are things that live directly off of another organism, feeding from the contents of their system.

Breastfeeding is just taking something that would normally have left anyway.

No, breastfeeding is the only non-synthetical means of survival for a newborn baby.

No, DNA 'always' existed, the concept of it didn't exist untyill DNA was discovered. A concept doesn't exist until it is conceived of. Just like a breath doesn't exist untill it's breathed, or a life untill it's lived etc..

Thats a question of definitions. Important thing is humans have always had DNA that identified them as humans.

Firstly, I never made that argument. Newborn babies are indeed very dependant of their mothers, but they are not physically leeches any longer since they are no longer attached. They are just as attatched to their mother in the way as a leech is to it's host. It is a sepperate organism from conception, and continues to be a paracite untill about a year after it is born.

So does mice and caterpillars. Your point being? So I can kill you because you are no differnt than a catipiller.


Did your dick spring to life inside those women? Does it grow there and leech of their bodies? I sprang to life and leached off my mother, it doesn't give her the right to kill me now, does it?

That is only because abortions require much more complex methods and equipment than drinking alcohol.

A coat-hanger is only slighly more complex than a drinking glass.

All extremists are morons. Both sides, on every issue - and especially on this one.

Well I think its sad that being pro-life, pro LIFE is considered extremist...

Your words sir were "DNA deffines what is and isn't a member of the Homo Sapient species." So it is you who do not know what they are talking about, however I am fairly sure that your oppinion has become as polerised as mine on the issue of DNA and what it dose or dose not do, so i suggest we simply agree to dissagree like gentlemen.
OK, you're a fool. I agree with you about what DNA does, that's something you have failed to realize. My arguement with you is claiming my ignorance on the topic due to your own lack of reading comprehention. That is all.

A coat-hanger is only slighly more complex than a drinking glass.
Anyway, who said that outlawing abortion would not be an act of taking away the rights of the mother in which the fetus grows? Shouldn't she be able to chose the fate of something that is pretty much a parasite?

How arrogant are you, dude? Just because you believe in something doesn't mean you have to push it on everybody.

True, but if that belief is a belief of an oppressing nature (ie, abortion should be illegal, jews should be forbidden to ride public transportation, etc) I claimed it to be contradictory to say that you don't want to 'force your opinions' on anyone.

I personally loathe abortion and everything it stands for, but I'd still give a woman the choice... after making her realise that she's actually killing something.

Good, then what's the problem?

not that this is related, but hey, Japfetish, do you live in Boulder? I think i saw you mention the Onion.

Heh, actually no, that's just something I picked up on these forums. In reality I am a Swede living in Prague, and English is my fourth language (Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, English, German, Czech in total) so I apologize for any language blunders I might be making. I'm also trying to type pretty rapidly in order to keep up with this thread - it's quite a challenge, hehe.

All extremists are morons. Both sides, on every issue - and especially on this one. A pro-life extreamist is someone who bombs an abortion clinic, which I highly doubt anyone here is. It is hippocritical to murder in the sake of preventing murder.

Well I think its sad that being pro-life, pro LIFE is considered extremist...
"Pro-life" is simply a buzz word. It's not like letting a mother choose whether or not they want to endure the troubles of childbirth is "pro-death".

Man, if you wan't do admit to being fucked in the ass, do it somewhere else.
Are you really this daft, or is this a mind-fuck?

The point. lovely, is that a z/e/f is created withing the femal of the species. You finger [attachted to you or otherwise] did not grow out of my [or anyone else's] ass to-my-knowledge. Thus, a fetus which parasites off of a woman is not the same as your fully developed and mostly unchanging finger in anyone's ass.

I adjorn, for the pasta is burning, but do call your mother and thank her with heartfelt joy for carrying you to term.

, actually no, that's just something I picked up on these forums. In reality I am a Swede living in Prague, and English is my fourth language (Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, English, German, Czech in total) so I apologize for any language blunders I might be making. I'm also trying to type pretty rapidly in order to keep up with this thread - it's quite a challenge, hehe.

Oh, just wondered. Man, that is a lot of languages.

OK, you're a fool. I agree with you about what DNA does, that's something you have failed to realize. My arguement with you is claiming my ignorance on the topic due to your own lack of reading comprehention. That is all.

Very well, despite the very bad humour in which you took my attempt at reconsiliation of our argument I shall accept. However in such a spirit I shall point out Sir that I have realised that you agree with me, so hence the attempt at ending the obviously non-sensical disagreemnet we were having.

Thats a question of definitions. Important thing is humans have always had DNA that identified them as humans.Probably true.
I wouldn't totally exclude the possibility of two different types of organisms havign the same DNA though. But the chance of that occurring naturally is much, much, smaller than the chance of two people having the same DNA. It'd been an interestign thing to try to engineer though, just as a proof of concept (to show the importance of the cellular machinery over DNA).

OK, you're a fool. I agree with you about what DNA does, that's something you have failed to realize. My arguement with you is claiming my ignorance on the topic due to your own lack of reading comprehention. That is all.

Very well, despite the very bad humour in which you took my attempt at reconsiliation of our argument i shall accept. However, being in such in such a spirit I shall point out Sir that I realised that you agree with me, so hence the attempt at ending the obviously non-sensical disagreemnet we were having.

Anyway, who said that outlawing abortion would not be an act of taking away the rights of the mother in which the fetus grows? Shouldn't she be able to chose the fate of something that is pretty much a parasite?


Well that's the whole pro-choice arguement really, the question is weather or not the foetus is deserved of rights and if their right to life [if they have that right] is allowed to encroach on the mother's right to what she has in her womb. Ofcourse, this doesn't include all the religious crapola but that doesn't belong anywhere near a discussion about a topic which isn't related to religion at all.

Anyway, who said that outlawing abortion would not be an act of taking away the rights of the mother in which the fetus grows? Shouldn't she be able to chose the fate of something that is pretty much a parasite?

No, its a human being. A human being in a different stage of development, yes, but still a human being.

You see it incorrectly. Until it pokes its little head out mommy's punani, a fertilized embryo isn't alive. It's a parasite. It's an organ. It can't survive on its own, so if it is a living animal, it is a failure. An embryo is alive when it can survive.

That statement is inaccurate. There are plenty of babies who can survive, hence they are either born or ripped out prematurely. It's wrong to say the baby has to come out of the woman to be considered alive. If it were to be taken out, instead of aborted at 8 months (which is an extremely disgusting process) then the baby can usually go on living normally. However, instead of just delivering the baby, they kill it, because many are selfish and don't want anyone else to have their baby.

Well that's the whole pro-choice arguement really, the question is weather or not the foetus is deserved of rights and if their right to life [if they have that right] is allowed to encroach on the mother's right to what she has in her womb. Ofcourse, this doesn't include all the religious crapola but that doesn't belong anywhere near a discussion about a topic which isn't related to religion at all.

How, tell me, is it that something that cannot think or make its own decisions, should have that kind of right?

Are you really this daft, or is this a mind-fuck?

The point. lovely, is that a z/e/f is created withing the femal of the species. You finger [attachted to you or otherwise] did not grow out of my [or anyone else's] ass to-my-knowledge. Thus, a fetus which parasites off of a woman is not the same as your fully developed and mostly unchanging finger in anyone's ass.

I adjorn, for the pasta is burning, but do call your mother and thank her with heartfelt joy for carrying you to term.

Of course not, it was just a dumb metaphore to shed some light on the subject. Its not the same no, but its another definition. Trying to value human life trough definitions is a dangerous path.

How, tell me, is it that something that cannot think or make its own decisions, should have that kind of right?

I don't know.

*Goes of to to kill all retards.

Probably true.
I wouldn't totally exclude the possibility of two different types of organisms havign the same DNA though. But the chance of that occurring naturally is much, much, smaller than the chance of two people having the same DNA. It'd been an interestign thing to try to engineer though, just as a proof of concept (to show the importance of the cellular machinery over DNA).

W/e, the important thing is that we can prove that a human is infact, a human.

What do you mean by "spilling sperm in vain"? :confused:

That statement is inaccurate. There are plenty of babies who can survive, hence they are either born or ripped out prematurely. It's wrong to say the baby has to come out of the woman to be considered alive. If it were to be taken out, instead of aborted at 8 months (which is an extremely disgusting process) then the baby can usually go on living normally. However, instead of just delivering the baby, they kill it, because many are selfish and don't want anyone else to have their baby.

Exactly, should further be noted that when you come out of your mothers ponani you are still a parasite for months to come.

If it was a sin and if there is a god, I would have been smoten by now.

Very well, despite the very bad humour in which you took my attempt at reconsiliation of our argument i shall accept. However, being in such in such a spirit I shall point out Sir that I realised that you agree with me, so hence the attempt at ending the obviously non-sensical disagreemnet we were having.
I don't take well to people challengeing me in that manner. Challenge my ideals, morals, or politics. Those kinds of challenges I enjoy because I gain insight into opposing possions and offen come out dedicated to my beliefs even stronger than before.

However, you challenged my intelegence and knowledge in a way that implied a lack therof on your part. That just struck a nerv.

The thing is, pro-abortionists are trying to decide which humans get the value of being a human and which don't get that value according to their own invented scale. This is bad. Why?

Because going down that same road, I can invent my own scale and use it justify everything from slavery to rape. I can say that all white men aren't really persons and thus can be killed/enslaved at will, because their skin is less resistant to intense sunlight.

The thing is, pro-abortionists are trying to decide which humans get the value of being a human and which don't get that value according to their own invented scale. This is bad. Why?

Because going down that same road, I can invent my own scale and use it justify everything from slavery to rape. I can say that all white men aren't really persons and thus can be killed/enslaved at will, because their skin is less resistant to intense sunlight.

That is not my argument. It is a fact that unborns cannont think and make their own decisions. People who have been born, can. It is that simple. And yes, even retards can make some of their own decisions.

Exactly, should further be noted that when you come out of your mothers ponani you are still a parasite for months to come.

More like years to come. 18 years usually at least.

That is not our argument. It is a fact that unborns cannont thing and make their own decisions. People who have been born, can. It is that simple. And yes, even retards can make some of their own decisions.

No, thats very, very wrong. Very mentally retarded people cannot make their own decisions. Some retards can make some of their own decisions, yes, but they still don't have complete contrl over themselfs. However, babies develop the capability to make their own decisions far before most countries deadline abortion stop (like 24 weeks or so).

Even so, what gives you the right to start measuring humans after their intelligence? Because again, I can use the same argument to start killing of random dumb people in my school for being less smart then me.

On another note, how much of what you are saying you believe is based on religion?

I don't take well to people challengeing me in that manner. Challenge my ideals, morals, or politics. Those kinds of challenges I enjoy because I gain insight into opposing possions and offen come out dedicated to my beliefs even stronger than before.

However, you challenged my intelegence and knowledge in a way that implied a lack therof on your part. That just struck a nerv.

I appologise, I Realise I very was tactless in my original challenge of you. This was due to a case of misstaken identity, and i am truly sorry. I enjoy a healthy discussion as much as you appear to do and am sure that if we were to return to the subject matter then we could have a very informative debate. You say that your resons for your Pro life stance are not religious, what 'interlectual' reasons do you have for coming to your conclusion?

Rabbits can think and make choices too. Yet I we shoot them for fun.

No, thats very, very wrong. Very mentally retarded people cannot make their own decisions. Some retards can make some of their own decisions, yes, but they still don't have complete contrl over themselfs. However, babies develop the capability to make their own decisions far before most countries deadline abortion stop (like 24 weeks or so).

Even so, what gives you the right to start measuring humans after their intelligence? Because again, I can use the same argument to start killing of random dumb people in my school for being less smart then me.

People that retarded should be, um, exposed of, because at that severity all they can do is hinder others in society.

On another note, how much of what you are saying you believe is based on religion?

I'm religous, I won't deny that. Though this isn't based on religion, its based on human value.

How, tell me, is it that something that cannot think or make its own decisions, should have that kind of right?

Don't ask me, I'm just adjudicating this arguement and taking the piss out of people's posts where I see fit.

I'll pose this scenario however.....what if foetuses were intelligent and had the ability to choose weather they were born normally or also had the option to burst out of the mother's body, totally descimating and obviouly fatally wounding the mother.

Would pro-choice-ers allow the baby this option, as it's their choice and the mother is essentially just a bunch of cells the foetus was feeding off?

Would pro-lifers support this practice as the child has as much right to fight for it's life as much as a normal person would, even if it endangers the mother's life?

Could the baby be tried for Murder, seeing as it's a potential human and not actually part of actual human jurisdiction? Would less teenagers go around having unprotected sex, with the fear of these womb-buster babies? Is this all a random and insane joke?

People that retarded should be, um, exposed of, because at that severity all they can do is hinder others in society.

Great, then lets start removing the immigrants aswell. Also, the sick and injured. And while we are at it why don't we round up and shoot all those annoying old ladies that only suck up money and complain all the time?

I'm religous, I won't deny that. Though this isn't based on religion, its based on human value.

Human value is based off ones beleifs, aka religion, am I not correct?

Don't ask me, I'm just adjudicating this arguement and taking the piss out of people's posts where I see fit.

I'll pose this scenario however.....what if foetuses were intelligent and had the ability to choose weather they were born normally or also had the option to burst out of the mother's body, totally descimating and obviouly fatally wounding the mother.

Would pro-choice-ers allow the baby this option, as it's their choice and the mother is essentially just a bunch of cells the foetus was feeding off?

Would pro-lifers support this practice as the child has as much right to fight for it's life as much as a normal person would, even if it endangers the mother's life?

Could the baby be tried for Murder, seeing as it's a potential human and not actually part of actual human jurisdiction? Would less teenagers go around having unprotected sex, with the fear of these womb-buster babies? Is this all a random and insane joke?

Thats just crazy. Just-crazy. Human value is the most important, if the above was true alot of people would have to make alot of hard choices between the mother and baby's life.

Human value is based off ones beleifs, aka religion, am I not correct?

No, you are not correct. Its influenced by one's religion if you are religious, but not entirely based on it ( atleast not for me ). I'd like to think that atheists have some concept of human value aswell.

Great, then lets start removing the immigrants aswell. Also, the sick and injured. And while we are at it why don't we round up and shoot all those annoying old ladies that only suck up money and complain all the time?

Thats not what I said. What I did say was that anyone who cannot make any sort of their own decision, i.e. someone who just sits there staring at the wall, should be hindering society.

Thats not what I said. What I did say was that anyone who cannot make any sort of their own decision, i.e. someone who just sits there staring at the wall, should be hindering society.

You said they should be disposed of since they are hindering society. Following that logic we should dispose of everything else that hinders society aswell, inlcuding immigrants, old ladies and sick people.

No, you are not correct. Its influenced by one's religion if you are religious, but not entirely based on it ( atleast not for me ). I'd like to think that atheists have some concept of human value aswell.

If that is the case, what is it based on other than your, or anyone elses, sole beliefs?

If that is the case, what is it based on other than your, or anyone elses, sole beliefs?

My respect for the value of human life.

Great, then lets start removing the immigrants aswell. Also, the sick and injured. And while we are at it why don't we round up and shoot all those annoying old ladies that only suck up money and complain all the time?

These old ladys you speak of have worked throughout their lives, payed taxes and like so that you can have an education, police force (and depending in which country you live in) a National Health Service. Immigrants take the job no one else wants and are a incredible boost to the economy, however immigrents that don't work should be booted back to which ever country they came from rather than leech of others. The sick and injured will heal won't they, and if not then they will either have family members who will look after them, they will be able to look after them selves or a socsial service group will help them, or if worst comes to worst they will die, but personaly i dont see what people are so scared of when it comes to death.

Abstinence is murder.
how tru! Screw all yall (only the 'yalls' that are girls, and no i am not a hick)

These old ladys you speak of have worked throughout their lives, payed taxes and like so that you can have an education, police force (and depending in which country you live in) a National Health Service. Immigrants take the job no one else wants and are a incredible boost to the economy, however immigrents that don't work should be booted back to which ever country they came from rather than leech of others. The sick and injured will heal won't they, and if not then they will either have family members who will look after them, they will be able to look after them selves or a socsial service group will help them, or if worst comes to worst they will die, but personaly i dont see what people are so scared of when it comes to death.

Yeah, thats just a few attempts at trying to excuse the existence of the above groups of people. Surf into some random fucknut anti-immigrant party site (like the BNP's site) and I'm sure they could show you that immigrants were only a liability and didn't provide anything good. I'm not going to argue against these people's right to exist since I belive they all have the right to exist.

True, I belive leechin immigrants should be dealt with harsher aswell ( I'm an immigrant myself ) but I'm not sayint that we should be allowed to KILL them.

The thing is yet again you take upon yourself to value people and their right to exist based on your own scale. You think some people have less right to exist then others. Thats whats wrong.

Yeah, thats just a few attempts at trying to excuse the existence of the above groups of people. Surf into some random fucknut anti-immigrant party site (like the BNP's site) and I'm sure they could show you that immigrants were only a liability and didn't provide anything good.

The thing is yet again you take upon yourself to value people and their right to exist based on your own scale. You think some people have less right to exist then others. Thats whats wrong.

No, that is what is reality. Some people are not as viable as others, finacialy or social. We would all like to think think that every human has as much right to life as the next but the truth is in the real world people do have more value to society then others and ergo if it comesdown to it - Life.

For Example, a 90 yr old lady wants a heart transplant, it will prolong her life 1 year. A 4 yr old boy wants a heart transplant, it will prolong his life 40 years a heart becomes available, sutible for both, who gets it? By your logic there is no aswere, neither is more important then the other so neither shoud get the heart.

Thats just crazy. Just-crazy. Human value is the most important, if the above was true alot of people would have to make alot of hard choices between the mother and baby's life.

Yes, it is hella-crazy. Ok, for something serious then...

Does anyone here actually feel than when an abortion takes place or a person is in the situation of needing/wanting an abortion that it is a positive thing?

Does anyone in here not feel that preventing these situations from ever happening would be far better than having to worry about weather women have to choice to get abortions or not?

No, that is what is reality. Some people are not as viable as others, finacialy or social. We would all like to think think that every human has as much right to life as the next but the truth is in the real world people do have more value to society then others and ergo if it comesdown to it - Life.

Yes, and thats what I want to change. I'm not saying thats not the way it is, I'm saying its not right.

For example, we could eradicate all the poor people of this world and the world would no doubt be a better place. No more money spent on charity, no more hobo's polluting the streets, no more aid etc.

Or, we could kill of all the Arabs and repopulate the oil wells around the Middle-east with robots instead. Or, we could kill a few hundred thousand Japanese to take the pressure of the real estate market.

Yes, it is hella-crazy. Ok, for something serious then...

Does anyone here actually feel than when an abortion takes place or a person is in the situation of needing/wanting an abortion that it is a positive thing?

Does anyone in here not feel that preventing these situations from ever happening would be far better than having to worry about weather women have to choice to get abortions or not?

Problem is today's society is twisted far beyond that. Today people don't give a shit if they kill babies. Here in Sweden, the first thing a woman is asked ( regardless of her social status ) when she is diagnosed pregnant is if she wants to keep "it".

People actually do think its a positive thing. A one-night stand, a 27 year old succesful business woman getting pregnant, and everyone thinks its a positive thing that she doesn't "ruin her life" by getting a baby.

Yes, and thats what I want to change. I'm not saying thats not the way it is, I'm saying its not right.

For example, we could eradicate all the poor people of this world and the world would no doubt be a better place. No more money spent on charity, no more hobo's polluting the streets, no more aid etc.

Or, we could kill of all the Arabs and repopulate the oil wells around the Middle-east with robots instead. Or, we could kill a few hundred thousand Japanese to take the pressure of the real estate market.

I agree with what your saying, getting rid of world povity is important and people should try and change it, BUT (back on the original subject matter) the idea that an un born child has as much right, if not more, then the fully developed mother to choose is rediculouse.

ok im leaving this...the frustration is overwhelming me. and obviously ...some guys seem to think what its like to go through child birth. i realize that some births can be due to a condom or a birth control pill that doesnt always work. what im trying to get through to you people is that its wrong. even the Bible says it. why dont you try reading it ?

Why should I give a damn what the bible says?

Every sperm is sacred,
every sperm is swell,
every spem deserves a chance
to spend a life in hell :D

Problem is today's society is twisted far beyond that. Today people don't give a shit if they kill babies. Here in Sweden, the first thing a woman is asked ( regardless of her social status ) when she is diagnosed pregnant is if she wants to keep "it".

People actually do think its a positive thing. A one-night stand, a 27 year old succesful business woman getting pregnant, and everyone thinks its a positive thing that she doesn't "ruin her life" by getting a baby.

When people see the ACT of getting an abortion as positive, then we need to start looking at the cause of the problem and preventing it, instead of debating about what is the the best solution for what is essentially a band-aid a long time after the owund has killed you.

If people see the ABILITY to get an abortion as positive, I can understand that side of the discussion. It's the NEED for abortions that I find hard to understand being a positive in any way, shape or form.

Every sperm is sacred,
every sperm is swell,
every spem deserves a chance
to spend a life in hell :D

Yeah, I've actually thought about that a fair amount, and if these Christian fundies believe so strongly about it, wouldn't it be more humane of to abort all fetuses so they all go to heaven, rather than living and being given the chance to sin?

Sperm are alive. Eggs are alive. Why do you people insist that it's only life when they are combined? Apparently life only matters when it's human life. Fuck that, we have more than enough humans on this planet already. If someone kills an animal, it's no big deal. But if someone kills an unborn fetus, it somehow is? It's the same damn thing, get rid of the double standard.

That statement is inaccurate. There are plenty of babies who can survive, hence they are either born or ripped out prematurely. It's wrong to say the baby has to come out of the woman to be considered alive. If it were to be taken out, instead of aborted at 8 months (which is an extremely disgusting process) then the baby can usually go on living normally. However, instead of just delivering the baby, they kill it, because many are selfish and don't want anyone else to have their baby.

If it is well devoped enough to live outside the womb, then the doctor is legally bound to try to save it. The idea that if it comes out living the doctor kills it is groundless propaganda put out by anti-choice activists.

Hmm if you don't masturbate the sperm dies and your body reabsorbs it. So if jacking off is murder then not doing so is cannibalism...

I believe abortion should be allowed until brain activity can be detected. Afterwards only serious health issues should allow abortion.

I agree with what your saying, getting rid of world povity is important and people should try and change it, BUT (back on the original subject matter) the idea that an un born child has as much right, if not more, then the fully developed mother to choose is rediculouse.

Why? Because the baby has less intelligence?
You know whats ridicolous and plain out evil? People approving of murder.

If it is well devoped enough to live outside the womb, then the doctor is legally bound to try to save it. The idea that if it comes out living the doctor kills it is groundless propaganda put out by anti-choice activists.

No, read up before you go making stupid claims. Fact is most of the ways that kill the babies include lots of pain and suffering for the baby. Infact, it happens in cases where you abort the baby by taking it out that it still has spasms and quivers, in which case the doctors leave it do die on a small metal plate. Die of coldness.

Seriously, what the fuck did you think? That abortion was all pretty? Its murder, murder isn't pretty.

Killing is a natural part of living. Get over it.

Anyone care for a nice bowl of fetus soup?

Hmm if you don't masturbate the sperm dies and your body reabsorbs it. So if jacking off is murder then not doing so is cannibalism...

I believe abortion should be allowed until brain activity can be detected. Afterwards only serious health issues should allow abortion.

So you belive we also should measure who should live and who should not live according to their intelligence?

That sounds good to me.

So you belive we also should measure who should live and who should not live according to their intelligence?

That is how we live life everyday. We have no very little problem killing animals since their less intelligent and we have no problem killing plants since they show no intelligence

No, read up before you go making stupid claims. Fact is most of the ways that kill the babies include lots of pain and suffering for the baby. Infact, it happens in cases where you abort the baby by taking it out that it still has spasms and quivers, in which case the doctors leave it do die on a small metal plate. Die of coldness.

Seriously, what the fuck did you think? That abortion was all pretty? Its murder, murder isn't pretty.

Not a stupid claim. You read something factual instead of inflammatory crap from Operation Rescue.

Abortions near the point of viability are performed only in extreme medical emergencies when the woman's life is threatened. A tiny fraction of these cases result in live-born infants, who are given all care necessary to sustain their lives.

It's not murder, and open heart surgery is not pretty. It's hardly a reason to make it legal.
The brain structures and nerve-cell connections that characterize the thinking and feeling parts of the brain are not completed until between the 7th and 8th months of gestation. Only after 30 weeks to the brain waves show patterns of waking consciousness when pain can be perceived. The reflex actions that are present before this stage do not indicate ability to feel pain. Abortions virtually never occur after 24 weeks.

Originally Posted by Bitchkitten
If it is well devoped enough to live outside the womb, then the doctor is legally bound to try to save it. The idea that if it comes out living the doctor kills it is groundless propaganda put out by anti-choice activists.

What do you think partial-birth abortion is?

The doctor doesn't kill it after it comes out. It's killed so it can be removed.

Well this thread has been fun [well, sometimes] but I have to sign off now as I have things to do. Hopefully this thing will end soon before going too far down hill. Enjoy :)

If our good-God-and-his-incomplete-story-book-beliefing friends here would care half as much for the human life that is starving due to economical interests of our Christian countries or the human life (containing the right DNA, fetched the soul etc.) that is dying as a collateral damage due to oil interests of God's own country, this world would be a better place ;)

Or at least try to care as much for Your next as You pretend to care for the unborn. It wont be as easy though.

If a woman has good reasons to abort a child, we might trust her to have good reasons.

What do you think partial-birth abortion is?

Partial birth abortions are extremely rare and only done when there is great danger to the mother's life or health.
91% of abortions are done in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, and only 4% after 16 weeks. Tests showing birth defects are not done until the 16th week; and some women do not discover they're pregnant until this time. Most late abortions are done for health reasons. Ironically, restrictive laws pushed by the anti-choice activists, such as mandatory parental involvement and cutoff of Medicaid for poor women's abortions, cause delay and lead to increased numbers of late abortions.
The Supreme Court rules that states may prohibit abortion in the their trimester, unless a woman's life or health is endangered. Only .9% of abortions are performed after 20 weeks, and none after 24 weeks. After 24 weeks, an emergency condition, e.g. toxemia, of the woman could end in an induced premature birth, with survival of both mother and infant as its goal.

I appologise, I Realise I very was tactless in my original challenge of you. This was due to a case of misstaken identity, and i am truly sorry. I enjoy a healthy discussion as much as you appear to do and am sure that if we were to return to the subject matter then we could have a very informative debate. You say that your resons for your Pro life stance are not religious, what 'interlectual' reasons do you have for coming to your conclusion? My exact words were Non-religeous(because I am agnostic, more or less), but still haveing to do with morality. There are also several intelectual reasons, and suppose I should address those as well.

I belive that noone has the right to kill someone else that is not a threat to somone else's right to live(IE: Self deffence). I would not like it if I were arbirarily executed because I had a job someone else wanted, or some other hopelessly selfish reason. I value human life because I am a member of the human species, and haveing no respect for human life means that I have no respect for my own life. One can have a sence of Right and Wrong without religeon.

There are reasons to ban Abortion from a Darwinian aspect as well. As a species, we are obligated to attempt to contine our species and avoid extinction. Ecourageing the destruction of human life reduces the value of human life. If human life is not valued, people are more likely to kill other people if they can get away with it, which is self destructive for a species, and increases the risk of extinction in the end. I do not want my species to enter extiction.

The arguement that those that abort will abort themselves out of the Gene Pool does not apply here because this kind of behavior is not hereditary in either a genetic or family sense(A father teaches his son skills his father taught him, and his father before him).

However, why I am against killing has little to do with the bassis of the abortion arguement. The main arguement, in the end, is not weather killing is right or wrong, but weather the embyo/fetus classifies as living human, which it does by nearly all scientific deffinitions. I feal that the Pro-choice lobby's only motivation is overpowering selfishness. They would be willing to kill a child because in inconveniences the mother. The only reason they can get away with such behavior is because they have convinced enough people that the fetus is not human, or is only a part of the mother, or other such bullshit which anyone with a scentific and logical understanding can debunk.

If you feal that killing a child or someone else who can't live on their own is moral because they incovenice "real" humans, come out and say it, otherwise I belive you are only deludeing yourself.

I am now finished on this thread because I have said all that I have to say. Judgement on who is right and who is wrong is left up to every indevidual that reads this thread. The possitions have been taken, the arguments have been made. Use your judgment.

I belive that noone has the right to kill someone else that is not a threat to somone else's right to live(IE: Self deffence). I would not like it if I were arbirarily executed because I had a job someone else wanted, or some other hopelessly selfish reason.

You don't think comparing getting executed because someone else wants your job is slightly different than choosing not to give birth to a potential human child due to various reasons? Such as that you would not be able to support the child, it would have a terrible childhood and good chances to becoming a bankrobber/crackwhore.

There are reasons to ban Abortion from a Darwinian aspect as well. As a species, we are obligated to attempt to contine our species and avoid extinction.

Our species isn't threatened by extinction due to lack of childbirths. What threatens our species if anything is that the planet is becoming overpopulated.

Ecourageing the destruction of human life reduces the value of human life. If human life is not valued, people are more likely to kill other people if they can get away with it, which is self destructive for a species, and increases the risk of extinction in the end. I do not want my species to enter extiction.

So you think that abortion is equal to walking around on the streets murdering people? Do you also think that masturbation is murder? Every sperm is a potential human life!!!111 Every sperm is sacred!!111

I feal that the Pro-choice lobby's only motivation is overpowering selfishness.

Got that right. Liberty is such selfish...

They would be willing to kill a child because in inconveniences the mother. The only reason they can get away with such behavior is because they have convinced enough people that the fetus is not human, or is only a part of the mother, or other such bullshit which anyone with a scentific and logical understanding can debunk.

Logic has *nothing* to do with moral, and you think abortion is wrong due to moral reasons, not logical ones. Lets say you are a pregnant mother who doesn't want to give birth to a fetus inside you. Logic suggests that you get rid of it; dispose of it. Logic does *not* suggest "Since killing is wrong, and the fetus is a living being, killing it would be wrong". It If it were as you say, that everyone who is 'enlightened' should 'know' that abortion is wrong, it would be illegal. But it isn't.

If you feal that killing a child or someone else who can't live on their own is moral because they incovenice "real" humans, come out and say it, otherwise I belive you are only deludeing yourself.

Uhm, that's been what I've been saying all along, even though I assume that by 'child' you mean fetus - not a child in the actual world, but an uncomplete one growing in someones womb.

Every time I see this thread I get the song in my head! DAMN YOU SPAWN OF SATAN....

And people can do whatever they want with their sperm. Free the sperm!

Ehehe... I'm actually listening to the song right now in my portable mp3 player. It is a completely timeless classic.

And that is coming from someone who is a full time student of classical composition ;)

I have The Lumberjack Song on my computer. :)

A can't believe that you just said a fetus is disposable. That's horrible, man. A heartbeat of a fetus can be heard after 21 days of pregancy. I dare anyone to say that a heartbeat does not signify life. Abortion = irrisponsible, plain and simple.
I think that cow's heartbeat can also be heard. I still don't have any problems eating them...

Ehehehe, exactly.

I'm glad for all the sperms I get. I think I need a daily dose of it to stay happy.
Sometimes there's too much of it but as long as my bf is happy I'm ok about it.

I have to live with the fact that none of those wasted sperms will help to create a baby inside of me.
But I guess that two or three of them will get lucky in the future.

*Only just arrived so haven't read all 14+ pages*

Sperm are not sacred. Sperm are sex cells and are only important when joined with an egg to create an embryo. If the sex cells were important and sacred on their own then women wouldn't have periods. Or something like that.

It's being discussed further up the thread so I'll give my two cents about abortion too :D. I personally don't agree with it but I think it should be up to the individual to decide.

I hope there's some sort of valid point in there somewhere. I'm too tired to really look that hard and put one it.

That is how we live life everyday. We have no very little problem killing animals since their less intelligent and we have no problem killing plants since they show no intelligence

No, we have no problem killing them since they aren't HUMAN.

If every sperm is sacred then that's pretty bad news considering that even in unprotected sex, only one of the millions of sperm can actually fertilise the ovum. Worse still, if done at the wrong time, no fertilisation will occur at all!

Not a stupid claim. You read something factual instead of inflammatory crap from Operation Rescue.

Abortions near the point of viability are performed only in extreme medical emergencies when the woman's life is threatened. A tiny fraction of these cases result in live-born infants, who are given all care necessary to sustain their lives.

It's not murder, and open heart surgery is not pretty. It's hardly a reason to make it legal.
The brain structures and nerve-cell connections that characterize the thinking and feeling parts of the brain are not completed until between the 7th and 8th months of gestation. Only after 30 weeks to the brain waves show patterns of waking consciousness when pain can be perceived. The reflex actions that are present before this stage do not indicate ability to feel pain. Abortions virtually never occur after 24 weeks.

So? I'm just trying to get this right, you want us to kill people measured on how intelligence/brain active they are? You feel its okay to kill other humans because they aren't as smart as the rest of us?

Because the above is just a scale, saying that its ok with abortion because the baby doesn't have fully developed brain waves. I could use the same argument to kill all people below 13 years since their eye sight isn't fully developed.

So? I'm just trying to get this right, you want us to kill people measured on how intelligence/brain active they are? You feel its okay to kill other humans because they aren't as smart as the rest of us?

Because the above is just a scale, saying that its ok with abortion because the baby doesn't have fully developed brain waves. I could use the same argument to kill all people below 13 years since their eye sight isn't fully developed.

I don't think she's talking about intelligence, I think she's talking about sentience.

I loved that movie...

hummmm hum hum ,hum hum

oh, you just caught me singing, well i think its utter murder and capital punishment should be the only punishment for protected sex and masturbation, kill those damn w**kers , read psalm 58 and 140 for ideas







nah , its fine really, jerk till red 'n' raw

You don't think comparing getting executed because someone else wants your job is slightly different than choosing not to give birth to a potential human child due to various reasons? Such as that you would not be able to support the child, it would have a terrible childhood and good chances to becoming a bankrobber/crackwhore.

Again, not being able to support the child doesn't even account for 1% of all abortions.



Our species isn't threatened by extinction due to lack of childbirths. What threatens our species if anything is that the planet is becoming overpopulated.

Then we could use your genious argument to start killing Chinese and Indians.



So you think that abortion is equal to walking around on the streets murdering people? Do you also think that masturbation is murder? Every sperm is a potential human life!!!111 Every sperm is sacred!!111

Potential human life doesn't count for shit. Its only POTENTIAL, a baby IS human life.



Got that right. Liberty is such selfish...

So where's the baby's liberty then? Hm? Did it ASK to be conceived? No, it didn't have a say in anything. Your libery is facist liberty.



Logic has *nothing* to do with moral, and you think abortion is wrong due to moral reasons, not logical ones. Lets say you are a pregnant mother who doesn't want to give birth to a fetus inside you. Logic suggests that you get rid of it; dispose of it. Logic does *not* suggest "Since killing is wrong, and the fetus is a living being, killing it would be wrong". It If it were as you say, that everyone who is 'enlightened' should 'know' that abortion is wrong, it would be illegal. But it isn't.

Thats a flawed argument. I think we all here can agree that killing other people is wrong, thus logic says you shouldn't kill babies because you shouldn't do things that are wrong.



Uhm, that's been what I've been saying all along, even though I assume that by 'child' you mean fetus - not a child in the actual world, but an uncomplete one growing in someones womb.

"Human" is the word you were looking for. Human, no matter what stage of development. As I said before, want to go judge people of their stage of development I can kill exactly who I want since we all develop troughout life up until the point that we die of old age.

I don't think she's talking about intelligence, I think she's talking about sentience.

Its related, to the point that its almost the exact same thing.

Its related, to the point that its almost the exact same thing.

Except that they are completely different things.

Except that they are completely different things.

Intelligent beings are sentient. The reason humans are sentient, is because we are the most intelligent.

Yar, I spill me syrup over me booty.

Yar, I spill me syrup over me booty.
:confused:
That must require some interesting contortions...

Intelligent beings are sentient. The reason humans are sentient, is because we are the most intelligent.

All rectangles are squares, therefore all squares are rectangles.

Oh... wait. Nevermind, I was using BAD LOGIC. Silly me.

*waits for someone to totally miss the point*

:rolleyes:

All rectangles are squares, therefore all squares are rectangles.

Oh... wait. Nevermind, I was using BAD LOGIC. Silly me.

*waits for someone to totally miss the point*
I think that circles aren't squares. Is that bad logic too?
:p

I think that circles aren't squares. Is that bad logic too?
:p

Heh... now you've gone and confused people. Including me (for a brief period of time) (and hey, it's 3am, I'm allowed to be confused). You get a cookie for making me reread a sentence three times and then going "Oh... right" :p

Hopefully this will put a stop to this daft debate, wherein people claim that 'DNA' defines something as human (FUN FACT: Your feces contain HUMAN DNA. Evidently it requires a lot more than human DNA to be considered human. Well, in most cases, I guess. Exceptions may be made for a select few anti-abortion world leaders)

Heh... now you've gone and confused people. Including me (for a brief period of time) (and hey, it's 3am, I'm allowed to be confused). You get a cookie for making me reread a sentence three times and then going "Oh... right" :p

Hopefully this will put a stop to this daft debate, wherein people claim that 'DNA' defines something as human (FUN FACT: Your feces contain HUMAN DNA. Evidently it requires a lot more than human DNA to be considered human. Well, in most cases, I guess. Exceptions may be made for a select few anti-abortion world leaders)

Feces IS human. Its NATURAL, human. However, feces are not a Human.

Masturbation feels good. Don't see why something harmless should be a sin, especially if it's fun.

As for babies. Until it develops a nervous system (ie. specialised nervous cells) it is nothing more than a bunch of cells, like the bacteria you kill when you wash your hands.

Man!...Don't you realize there is a magical ghost on a cloud that has a very serious interest in what you do in your bed alone at night!?!?

You mean by wanking I am committing murder? :eek:

What if you don't plan on having kids or adopting? Is spilling sperm then less offensive?