NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, I screwed up the last thread...let's try again, sorry!

How 'okay' are you with LGBTT (Lesbian/gay/bisexual/transgendered/transexual) people? Maybe it's just the people I hang around with, but most people I know are fine, or at least indifferent, not hostile.

Do you consider yourself LGBTT friendly (as in you REALLY tolerate their lifestyle, not just admit it exists), or do you disapprove of their sexuality/state of being?

(I've taken out the word lifestyle, since it's been pointed out as not really appropriate.)

NOTE: I included age groups to see if some groups are more LGBTT friendly than other age groups...just curious!

I was not aware that LGBTT folk had a defined lifestyle. I thought that like strightforward heterosexuals their sexual option did not necessarily define a lifestyle.
Those that I like, I like; those that I don't, I don't. Their sexual behaviour is irrelevant.
(Ain't cut and paste wonderful)

Who cares? Different strokes for different folks.

Note I took that word out:). The question boils down to: do you think LGBTT are WRONG (in the sense that they are aberations and should not exist or be allowed to be 'open'), or are you okay with them, regardless of their sexuality or other issues, and take them as people, just as flawed or beautiful as the rest of us?

Although I don't exactly go "Yay, diversity!" I'm fine with it.
In reality, I don't really care about what people get up to in the bedroom, although I do tend to get rather angry at people who do 'care' about what other people get up to in the bedroom.

LGBTT

One of my brothers has recently come out as transgendered. I was always fairly certain that's what he was...wait, before I go into this, I ought to define a few terms so there is no confusion.

LGBT: Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual/Transgendered/Transexual

Most people know what lesbian, gay and bisexual are, but there is some confusion when we get to transgendered and transexual.

Transgendered is someone with the physical attributes of one sex, who feels more the other gender. My people call them two-spirited...male/female in spirit. Transexuals have actually had operations or hormone therapy to BECOME the other gender. Of course, the people that are generally let out of LGBTT are the intersexed: those born with ambiguous genitalia (not true hermaphrodites, with BOTH sets of genitalia) who historically have been assigned a gender (though now the trend is to NOT resort to surgery and see how things turn out).

Anyway.

So my brother has come out as transgendered. I'm very happy he's done so...but, stereotypically, my father is having a lot of trouble with this. He is not homophobic to any large extent...but he HAS gotten a little more intolerant with age. I think he could understand gay. Gay he gets. Transgendered, he's having a little more trouble with. He keeps going back to sexuality..."Does this mean you like girls, or guys, or both?" My brother has only had girlfriends up until now, and I'm not sure either if he has any attraction to me...he just feels more female than male. (You'd never guess...my brother is 6'4" and very stocky...but he loves those hippy broomstick skirts:))

Well, seeing as I'm two of the letters out of LGBTT, you could say I'm pretty okay with it.
:D

I treat them as anyone else. I am bi myself. I am 14.

NOTE: I included age groups to see if some groups are more LGBTT friendly than other age groups...just curious!
It's not going to help, because you can't see the connection between the range and the vote.
:D

Who cares? Different strokes for different folks.

I bring this up, because suicide rates among LGBTT adolescents is still much higher than for any other group, especially in Alberta, Canada, where I am from. The number one put down in school is 'Fag', even though most kids don't really get it. It was here that a gay teacher was fired for being gay...took his case to court and won, but attitudes toward LGBTT people are still pretty hostile in many parts. It's not okay to be racist publicly, but it is still okay in many parts to be anti-LGBTT.

Transgendered is someone with the physical attributes of one sex, who feels more the other gender. Transexuals have actually had operations or hormone therapy to BECOME the other gender.
Shouldn't be that they simply ARE a gender and that the body got it wrong? So that, when they undergo the operation, they 'become' their own gender?

Or am I just being too nitpicky-y?

Well, seeing as I'm two of the letters out of LGBTT, you could say I'm pretty okay with it.
:D
This was something else I was wondering about...if you are physically male, but feel female (transgendered), and you are attracted to men, are you gay, or straight transgendered? I know it sounds silly, and why we have such a need to put labels on people, I don't know, but really...

It's not going to help, because you can't see the connection between the range and the vote.
:D
Sh*t, that's a good point. I'm not thinking that well today...

Oh well...it will at least give me an idea of what age group is responding most...for whatever use that is. Duh.

Actually, unless you make it a public poll, you won't know HOW MANY of each age group voted for which choice -- simply how many of each age group voted.

Shouldn't be that they simply ARE a gender and that the body got it wrong? So that, when they undergo the operation, they 'become' their own gender?

Or am I just being too nitpicky-y?
I'm fine with that definition. However, my brother has no intention of having surgery...he's fine the way he is.

Who am i to care who people feel attracted to? Its not as if they can help it anyway, so turning all bigot isnt going to change anything

two of my best mates from school turned out to be gay, didnt mean i didnt consider them "less" mates, just that they werent interested in girls

ive never met anyone whos transgendered, but who am i to stop people from being happy and doing what they want with their lives?

This was something else I was wondering about...if you are physically male, but feel female (transgendered), and you are attracted to men, are you gay, or straight transgendered?
Well, if you're a girl who likes boys, I'd say you're straight. The fact that the body doesn't fit with the mind is fairly inconsequential.

I'm fine with that definition. However, my brother has no intention of having surgery...he's fine the way he is.
Is he going to dress as female or what then?

Actually, unless you make it a public poll, you won't know HOW MANY of each age group voted for which choice -- simply how many of each age group voted.
*smacks herself with a frozen trout*

I know, I know...I wanted to make it anonymous, but I ended up shooting my poll in the foot. Is there any way to change that?

Well, if you're a girl who likes boys, I'd say you're straight. The fact that the body doesn't fit with the mind is fairly inconsequential.
thats what i would think

never met any bisexual, transgendered, or transexual people, and only a few lesbian or gay people. frankly, i don't care. their sexuality is none of my business.
if a gay dude started hitting on me (unlikely :p ) i would politely tell him to get lost, but certainly wouldn't resent or be hostile to him or other gays.

i 'tolerate' their lifestyle in that i really don't care.
i'm 19 btw.

Is he going to dress as female or what then?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Of course, girls can wear whatever...skirts, pants, pantyhose or soccer jerseys, while men are supposed to stick to 'manly' clothes. In any case, sometimes he dresses in 'feminine' clothes (don't think lace and high heels here...he's into the broomstick skirts mostly), and other times he just dresses like he always has. He's not into makeup, or 'woman' hairdos...he likes some jewlery but who can say if it's men's jewlery or women's...

Aww, damn. I already gave an honest answer, so I can't say TEH GHEYS ARE TEH ICKY AND WRONG!11!!!!eleven!!1!!!11!!

There is likely some range between


Bad People
YAY


by making it polar you distort the result. Personally I'd vote for "Who cares - do onto others what they want done."

Well, seeing as I'm two of the letters out of LGBTT, you could say I'm pretty okay with it.
:D

Ya know, most people would be happy with just the one, greedy you. I've decided that you're too diverse for my liking. nah, just kidding.


Yup, sinuhue. I'm same as your brother, except not as tall, and certainly not as open about it to my family. And I'll be going for the whole surgery thing.
I doubt it'd go down so well... whilst completely not bothered about homosexuality, my family are not quite the pinnacle of tolerance with transexuals/transgendered.

Of course, personally speaking, it doesn't bother me in the least how other people live their lives.

See, so far I'm getting pretty tolerant messages from you folks...where are all the ones who find it offensive to their religious beliefs, or believe that it's a choice, not an issue of genetics, and therefore something LGBTT can change? Even my mother in law thinks LGBTT teachers are a bad influence...it's a subject we no longer discuss because it gets too heated...

Cripes...just look at the whole gay-marriage issue and see how much bigotry is out there (or at least very vocal).

It's an issue, I think, because kids are still scared to come out (especially in rural areas), and families aren't always understanding or supportive. It's becoming more normalised, but it's still a dangerous thing to be for many people.

There's a lot of whitewash out there to make homophobia not look like what it is: hatred. Look at the whole Matthew Shepard trial...they're saying it was a meth crazed act, not a homophobic one now.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Of course, girls can wear whatever...skirts, pants, pantyhose or soccer jerseys, while men are supposed to stick to 'manly' clothes. In any case, sometimes he dresses in 'feminine' clothes (don't think lace and high heels here...he's into the broomstick skirts mostly), and other times he just dresses like he always has. He's not into makeup, or 'woman' hairdos...he likes some jewlery but who can say if it's men's jewlery or women's...
sounds fair enough to me

Although I don't exactly go "Yay, diversity!" I'm fine with it.
In reality, I don't really care about what people get up to in the bedroom, although I do tend to get rather angry at people who do 'care' about what other people get up to in the bedroom.

Same.

Though those that rub it in my face that they should be accepted annoys me.

There is likely some range between


Bad People
YAY


by making it polar you distort the result. Personally I'd vote for "Who cares - do onto others what they want done."
Because frankly, if you don't really care, you aren't going to go out there and gay bash, or say they should choose to be straight, or that they are disgusting perverted people. If you disapprove, you may choose to do these things, or you may choose to disapprove silently, but you still disapprove. You don't have to celebrate LGBTT people if you 'don't care', so maybe I'd take out the YAY, since it introduces a degree of active support that you may not feel.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Of course, girls can wear whatever...skirts, pants, pantyhose or soccer jerseys, while men are supposed to stick to 'manly' clothes. In any case, sometimes he dresses in 'feminine' clothes (don't think lace and high heels here...he's into the broomstick skirts mostly), and other times he just dresses like he always has. He's not into makeup, or 'woman' hairdos...he likes some jewlery but who can say if it's men's jewlery or women's...
It always vaguely annoys me that women get so much more variety in the types of clothing, materials and cuts than men. You have no idea how hard it is to get mens flared trowsers compared to womens. My brother finds the same and as he is a skinny bugger he sometimes buys womens trousers. Now strictly speaking that is cross dressing but the point is that clothes are just a covering to keep us warm and make us look different. It really shouldn't matter what someone wears.

Ya know, most people would be happy with just the one, greedy you. I've decided that you're too diverse for my liking. nah, just kidding.


Yup, sinuhue. I'm same as your brother, except not as tall, and certainly not as open about it to my family. And I'll be going for the whole surgery thing.
I doubt it'd go down so well... whilst completely not bothered about homosexuality, my family are not quite the pinnacle of tolerance with transexuals/transgendered.

Of course, personally speaking, it doesn't bother me in the least how other people live their lives.
People think transgendered/transexual and "Pricilla, Queen of the Desert" floats before their eyes....

Same.

Though those that rub it in my face that they should be accepted annoys me.
What do you mean by 'rub it in your face'? I've been accused of doing that (though I'm not LGBTT, I support people who are, actively), by refusing to let insults of 'faggot' pass in my classroom or amongst staff members. I wouldn't let my kids say, 'chink', nor would I say nothing if a coworker said it. Is that too in your face?

(curious as to your perception, not baiting)

It always vaguely annoys me that women get so much more variety in the types of clothing, materials and cuts than men. You have no idea how hard it is to get mens flared trowsers compared to womens. My brother finds the same and as he is a skinny bugger he sometimes buys womens trousers. Now strictly speaking that is cross dressing but the point is that clothes are just a covering to keep us warm and make us look different. It really shouldn't matter what someone wears.
I agree...just look at the sheer number of women's clothes compared to men. Definate gender bias. My brother used to tell guys in bars (who were threatening him or questioning his skirt) that "Hey, men in most cultures wear skirts...Indonesians, Phillipinos, even the Scotts...so what? We should lose out because we're Canadian?"

I remember back in the 90s there were a lot of straight guys wearing hippy skirts, trying to break out of the gender-defined dress code. It was pretty neat.

Luckily my brother is big enough to defend himself though when the odd drunken idiot gets too 'offended'.

Ya know, most people would be happy with just the one, greedy you. I've decided that you're too diverse for my liking. nah, just kidding.
Oh noes, I've used up another letter that somebody else might need!
:D
Yup, sinuhue. I'm same as your brother, except not as tall, and certainly not as open about it to my family. And I'll be going for the whole surgery thing.
I doubt it'd go down so well... whilst completely not bothered about homosexuality, my family are not quite the pinnacle of tolerance with transexuals/transgendered.
Wait, am I reading this right?
You have gender identity disorder?

One thing that always bug me is womens clothes are always prettier. Ive got no urge to dress in them cos theyre not my style. But im still offended that no-one can be arsed to make mens clothes that are as nice. I want a wider range of coats dammit :P.

In other news... as a gay man living as i do, i sometimres find it strange to find a straight person... whenever that happens i always think "Wo now, im getting too deep here, its time to spend a little time with some of my straight frei--- damn"

NOTE: I included age groups to see if some groups are more LGBTT friendly than other age groups...just curious!
I'm 61 ( soon to be 62 ) and I'm fine with whatever people do with their own lives, including LGBTTs. Especially in the case of gays, there seem to be some indications that it's genetic as opposed to a "choice." A good friend of mine discovered that he was "gay" at about age 14 and knowing what this young man went through at school leads me to believe that no one would ever choose to be subjected to that kind of torment.

I'm not 100% sure what I would do/say if one of my grandchildren were gay, but I would like to think that I would still love them and accept them for who/what they are.

I'm 61 ( soon to be 62 ) and I'm fine with whatever people do with their own lives, including LGBTTs. Especially in the case of gays, there seem to be some indications that it's genetic as opposed to a "choice." A good friend of mine discovered that he was "gay" at about age 14 and knowing what this young man went through at school leads me to believe that no one would ever choose to be subjected to that kind of torment.

I'm not 100% sure what I would do/say if one of my grandchildren were gay, but I would like to think that I would still love them and accept them for who/what they are.
i just wish more "older" people shared your view :)

It is worth bearing in mind that most men are conditioned at an early age by peer pressure to actively repress their own feminine natures. This usually continues into adulthood and is the cause of vicious discrimination against men who are not masculine "enough". Effectively they are trying to compensate for having a feminine side by abusing those who they perceive as having too much of one. The ludicrous thing is that eveyone has personality attributes that are traditionally regarded as belonging to the other gender but somehow it has become something that is seen as wrong or abnormal. People should learn to like themselves before deciding who they hate.

Indeed, neo. I've not been told I do yet by a professional, but I've known since I was about 12, and it's the one thing that's led me into two quite severe depressions one after the other.

But I'm also a complete bundle of neurosis', which prevents me from doing basically bugger all about it.

when you're convinced that basically everyone that you talk to has some magic hotline to your close friends and family, then it tends to limit your movement options. Of course, when I rationalise that particular part of my insanity, it lessens for a little while.

One thing that always bug me is womens clothes are always prettier. Ive got no urge to dress in them cos theyre not my style. But im still offended that no-one can be arsed to make mens clothes that are as nice. I want a wider range of coats dammit :P.

In other news... as a gay man living as i do, i sometimres find it strange to find a straight person... whenever that happens i always think "Wo now, im getting too deep here, its time to spend a little time with some of my straight frei--- damn"
Hahahaa...we do get caught up with certain people sometimes...at one point I had to say, "I can hardly speak English anymore, maybe I should get friends outside of my Spanish circle!"

It is worth bearing in mind that most men are conditioned at an early age by peer pressure to actively repress their own feminine natures. This usually continues into adulthood and is the cause of vicious discrimination against men who are not masculine "enough". Effectively they are trying to compensate for having a feminine side by abusing those who they perceive as having too much of one. The ludicrous thing is that eveyone has personality attributes that are traditionally regarded as belonging to the other gender but somehow it has become something that is seen as wrong or abnormal. People should learn to like themselves before deciding who they hate.
"You cannot know another until you know yourself"
-I forgot who the hell this is a quote from, and I probably butchered it too. Oh well.

Indeed, neo. I've not been told I do yet by a professional, but I've known since I was about 12, and it's the one thing that's led me into two quite severe depressions one after the other.
Well, at least the 50% rule hasn't yet claimed you as a victim...

It is worth bearing in mind that most men are conditioned at an early age by peer pressure to actively repress their own feminine natures. This usually continues into adulthood and is the cause of vicious discrimination against men who are not masculine "enough". Effectively they are trying to compensate for having a feminine side by abusing those who they perceive as having too much of one. The ludicrous thing is that eveyone has personality attributes that are traditionally regarded as belonging to the other gender but somehow it has become something that is seen as wrong or abnormal. People should learn to like themselves before deciding who they hate.
I agree...things are not so cut and dry. I think we all have elements of each gender in us, but we are forced early on into one gender identity, and woe to him or her that dares step outside those boundaries! I think women have been able to make some ground in that department...we can take non-traditional jobs and do non-traditional things, but men still have a way to go...just think of the whole "Meet the Parents" running joke about Fokker being a 'male nurse' ha ha. Why is that even amusing to some people?

Well, at least the 50% rule hasn't yet claimed you as a victim...

50% rule? I'm confused.

50% rule? I'm confused.
So am I

just think of the whole "Meet the Parents" running joke about Fokker being a 'male nurse' ha ha. Why is that even amusing to some people?
i found it funny not because of the fact he was a male nurse, but because of the way he was treated by other people, it summed up societys reaction pretty well, and with humour too

Indeed, neo. I've not been told I do yet by a professional, but I've known since I was about 12, and it's the one thing that's led me into two quite severe depressions one after the other.

But I'm also a complete bundle of neurosis', which prevents me from doing basically bugger all about it.

when you're convinced that basically everyone that you talk to has some magic hotline to your close friends and family, then it tends to limit your movement options. Of course, when I rationalise that particular part of my insanity, it lessens for a little while.
My brother has suffered severe depression since around 12 as well. It has worried the hell out of my mother, but I forced her to take his suicide threats seriously, and he got counselling. Now, granted, he didn't feel free to talk about his gender issues, but just being able to say, "I feel different" helped. We sent him to Europe for a while when he really got in a funk (the money was supposed to go to college, but he doesn't seem interested, so I convinced my parents he needed a change of scenery). It really helped for him to get out and be anonymous for a while. This announcement has been many, many years in the making, and I'm glad he's just come out with it. He is SO much happier right now, though I know he'll go through some more rough patches in the future...we all do. Not having to hide who you are to the people closest to you relieves a lot of tension. I no longer worry I'm going to be woken up one night by someone telling me my brother has killed himself.

50% rule? I'm confused.
"A transsexual person, born to all appearance within a given physical sex, is aware of being of a gender opposite to that physical sex. This conflict, between gender identity and physical sex, is almost always manifest from earliest awareness, and is the cause of enormous suffering. It is common for transsexuals to be aware of their condition at preschool ages.

This agony can and does lead to self destruction unless treated. The incredible difficulties that surround achieving treatment are themselves often agonizing, the sum total of which can play havoc with the lives of the gender dysphoric. Indeed, it is apparent that some fifty percent of transsexuals die by age 30, usually by their own hand. This morbidity is known as the 50% Rule."

Ignorance was, to a large extent, bliss.

To those of you who are lesbian, gay, transgendered or transexual, or know someone who is...what do you think could be done in schools to help STOP the number of suicides and serious depressions among LGBTT youth? How do teachers deal with the issue, and what could be done to reach out? Ideas?

I agree...things are not so cut and dry. I think we all have elements of each gender in us, but we are forced early on into one gender identity, and woe to him or her that dares step outside those boundaries! I think women have been able to make some ground in that department...we can take non-traditional jobs and do non-traditional things, but men still have a way to go...just think of the whole "Meet the Parents" running joke about Fokker being a 'male nurse' ha ha. Why is that even amusing to some people?
This is true. For example ALL men can tell if another guy is good looking or sexy. Any man who says they can't means they are not prepared to say. Doesn't make you gay, just means you can see what any one else can and are able to make a judgement on it. As for the male nurse joke...cringe inducingly crass.

i found it funny not because of the fact he was a male nurse, but because of the way he was treated by other people, it summed up societys reaction pretty well, and with humour too
I agree the reactions were funny...not the actual position itself. It's very true to life though...men still are ridiculed for taking certain jobs.

To those of you who are lesbian, gay, transgendered or transexual, or know someone who is...what do you think could be done in schools to help STOP the number of suicides and serious depressions among LGBTT youth? How do teachers deal with the issue, and what could be done to reach out? Ideas?
I don't know. I know my main problem in school couldn't be changed by any possible method I can think of, since my problem was the other students. Depression won't really be able to be stopped very well, I wouldn't think, judging by the whole "Holy fucking shit I'm the wrong gender!" bit of it...

To those of you who are lesbian, gay, transgendered or transexual, or know someone who is...what do you think could be done in schools to help STOP the number of suicides and serious depressions among LGBTT youth? How do teachers deal with the issue, and what could be done to reach out? Ideas?
Nothing, it is not a problem at school level. Anyimprovement requires a deep routed change in society that can only be achieved by concerted effort on the part of a large part of society and takes time.

However i have high hopes that such a change IS taking place already.

Nothing, it is not a problem at school level. Anyimprovement requires a deep routed change in society that can only be achieved by concerted effort on the part of a large part of society and takes time.
Ah, I was trying to say something like that, but messed up miserably. Now I don't have to go back and fix it. Yay!
:fluffle:

"A transsexual person, born to all appearance within a given physical sex, is aware of being of a gender opposite to that physical sex. This conflict, between gender identity and physical sex, is almost always manifest from earliest awareness, and is the cause of enormous suffering. It is common for transsexuals to be aware of their condition at preschool ages.

This agony can and does lead to self destruction unless treated. The incredible difficulties that surround achieving treatment are themselves often agonizing, the sum total of which can play havoc with the lives of the gender dysphoric. Indeed, it is apparent that some fifty percent of transsexuals die by age 30, usually by their own hand. This morbidity is known as the 50% Rule."
I think (and the stats tend to back me up) that gays and lesbians (and bis, who may or may not have more difficulty since the straights don't like them, and sometimes the gay and lesbian community won't accept them) tend to have more role-models and acceptance than transgendered or transexual people. People want things cut and dried, and no straying..."CHOOSE A GENDER" kind of thing. Why? Why should people have to choose? What difference does it make?

Ah, I was trying to say something like that, but messed up miserably. Now I don't have to go back and fix it. Yay!
:fluffle:
Thats what im here for (lie)

BTW can I just say thanks for a conversation interesting and sane enough to post in. First time I bothered for a couple of months or more.

I don't know. I know my main problem in school couldn't be changed by any possible method I can think of, since my problem was the other students. Depression won't really be able to be stopped very well, I wouldn't think, judging by the whole "Holy fucking shit I'm the wrong gender!" bit of it...
That's what I mean though...teachers generally step up and deal with racist remarks or behaviour, but very often, homophobia is tolerated. How could teachers better help LGBTT students deal with other students and visa versa? (All this while still respecting the beliefs of others)

I think (and the stats tend to back me up) that gays and lesbians (and bis, who may or may not have more difficulty since the straights don't like them, and sometimes the gay and lesbian community won't accept them) tend to have more role-models and acceptance than transgendered or transexual people.
certainly here anyway thats true

I know many people who would never say "look! theres a gay person" but i remember walking to the bus from school one day with a group of friends (including a gay person) and someone noticed a woman who looked...manly to day the least.

The first thing anybody said once we had moved on a bit was "oh my god did you see the tranny? thats sick"...my reply was "and?"..."dude, its just wrong" :rolleyes:

those same people fully tolerate and accept gays, and have gay friends

That's what I mean though...teachers generally step up and deal with racist remarks or behaviour, but very often, homophobia is tolerated. How could teachers better help LGBTT students deal with other students and visa versa? (All this while still respecting the beliefs of others)
Again, youve seen all the government posters in school, and all the things teachers tell you to think and do. But you sitll only really listen to what your peers think and do. And they get their influences from outside school, from older children. The teachers can do very little really, the problem is one that can only be solved by everyone.

"A transsexual person, born to all appearance within a given physical sex, is aware of being of a gender opposite to that physical sex. This conflict, between gender identity and physical sex, is almost always manifest from earliest awareness, and is the cause of enormous suffering. It is common for transsexuals to be aware of their condition at preschool ages.

This agony can and does lead to self destruction unless treated. The incredible difficulties that surround achieving treatment are themselves often agonizing, the sum total of which can play havoc with the lives of the gender dysphoric. Indeed, it is apparent that some fifty percent of transsexuals die by age 30, usually by their own hand. This morbidity is known as the 50% Rule."

I see... I used to be self-destructive (to the point of attack) but I've never been suicidally inclined, which I'm thankful for. Basically everything else, but never suicidal.
Personally, I think a lot of problems could be solved by purposefully trying not to make a big deal out of them. Of course, there's always going to be someone who does, which complicates EVERYTHING, but if people acted like it was no big thing, then it would eventually be like that. Think about it. After people stopped saying "oh my, there's a black kid in this school", no-one cared if there was or not, it was just the case, nothing more.

I know of one school district that doesn't target LGBTT youth directly, but rather ALL students 'at risk' for whatever reason. They started a mentorship program, so that a student was paired with a teacher or support staff member, and had a space to go when they were feeling low, (a place in the classroom for instance) or could spend a lunch hour or whatever just hanging out with that person. At first, few LGBTT students came forward, but it seems all it took was putting a rainbow flag on the window of participating classrooms, and suddenly quite a few were using the program. They are trying to create connections with kids who are at risk of depression, suicide or whatever...even the really needy kids get to use it, because hell, if they're that needy, there's a reason for it (ignored at home, socially inept, ect). Drop out rates have been cut in half after two years of this.

That's what I mean though...teachers generally step up and deal with racist remarks or behaviour, but very often, homophobia is tolerated. How could teachers better help LGBTT students deal with other students and visa versa? (All this while still respecting the beliefs of others)
I don't know. That's mostly because almost all of the teachers I've had/been around have been apathetic, uncaring, and mostly bigoted themselves. They hadn't even conquered the racism problem yet, and I have never had the experience of a teacher really dealing with a big problem. So basically, I have nothing to say but I'm taking a really long time to say it.

That's what I mean though...teachers generally step up and deal with racist remarks or behaviour, but very often, homophobia is tolerated. How could teachers better help LGBTT students deal with other students and visa versa? (All this while still respecting the beliefs of others)
I would suggest that the biggest problem is that it is a discrimination that a majority of society still tend to pasively agree with. For example only yesterday in a radio article about HIV in immigrants an otherwise educated contributor said that HIV only moved to the heterosexual population when immigrants from Africa with HIV came to the UK. The thing that angered me most was that no one thought this worth challenging and it was just ignored. While attitudes like that are still seen as not being passive discrimination then society as a whole will continue to allow active discrimination.

certainly here anyway thats true

I know many people who would never say "look! theres a gay person" but i remember walking to the bus from school one day with a group of friends (including a gay person) and someone noticed a woman who looked...manly to day the least.

The first thing anybody said once we had moved on a bit was "oh my god did you see the tranny? thats sick"...my reply was "and?"..."dude, its just wrong" :rolleyes:

those same people fully tolerate and accept gays, and have gay friends
Yes, i have to admit that whilst i accept transgenders and transexuals as having a right to do whatever they like, and wouldnt insult them specifically, as a group it is very hard to resist the odd jibe. But then i do the same to lesbians and gays to, im pretty much indescriminate in that respect come to think of it.

I see... I used to be self-destructive (to the point of attack) but I've never been suicidally inclined, which I'm thankful for. Basically everything else, but never suicidal.
I'm glad for you. The 50% rule has nearly claimed me as a statistic more than once.
Personally, I think a lot of problems could be solved by purposefully trying not to make a big deal out of them. Of course, there's always going to be someone who does, which complicates EVERYTHING, but if people acted like it was no big thing, then it would eventually be like that. Think about it. After people stopped saying "oh my, there's a black kid in this school", no-one cared if there was or not, it was just the case, nothing more.
The problem is getting people to stop caring. It's like the situation with black people, it took a long time to work it out of the general populace's minds, and it still isn't even fully gone.

I see... I used to be self-destructive (to the point of attack) but I've never been suicidally inclined, which I'm thankful for. Basically everything else, but never suicidal.
Personally, I think a lot of problems could be solved by purposefully trying not to make a big deal out of them. Of course, there's always going to be someone who does, which complicates EVERYTHING, but if people acted like it was no big thing, then it would eventually be like that. Think about it. After people stopped saying "oh my, there's a black kid in this school", no-one cared if there was or not, it was just the case, nothing more.
You've brought up a really good point. "Not making a big deal out of things"...often that is taken to mean that LGBTT people (or anyone different for that matter) shouldn't be so OPEN or OUT about themselves...that they are making too much of a deal about themselves. I don't think any of that would be necessary if the rest of the people were really fine with it...if it wasn't a big deal, who would bother having gay parades (well, then again, they are pretty fun, but...)? We need to make this an open issue so that kids don't feel isolated (yes, and adults too) and resort to destructive behaviour. Seriously. Gay boys are four times more likely to kill themselves than straight ones. That isn't coincidence. If it was a non-issue, and people just thought it was normal (or at least common enough to warrant no reaction), it would go a long way to helping kids come to terms with their identities and sexuality.

The problem is getting people to stop caring. It's like the situation with black people, it took a long time to work it out of the general populace's minds, and it still isn't even fully gone.

Yeah, it's a real problem, but I feel that it's really going to be one that persists for an age, then practically disappears overnight. I really think the press is to blame for a lot of it though, because it gives gay/transexuals special coverage, but in a "my, how novel" kind of way... I mean, when national papers run stories on transexuals who've gotten married because of a legal loophole, I think... it must have been a really slow day when you run a full page story on a wedding. It's that kind of coverage that I feel does no favours.

I don't know. That's mostly because almost all of the teachers I've had/been around have been apathetic, uncaring, and mostly bigoted themselves. They hadn't even conquered the racism problem yet, and I have never had the experience of a teacher really dealing with a big problem. So basically, I have nothing to say but I'm taking a really long time to say it.
:) So none of your teachers really dealt with the issue. That's what I'd like to change. Too many teachers are, as you say, bigoted themselves. A school is the last place that should be allowed, yet I can tell you from experience, you face a lot of pressure and resentment as a teacher FROM OTHER TEACHERS when you try to make these things an issue. Well, tough. I for one intend to keep raising shit if it means my, that's right MY kids (students) don't get so lost they go and blow their brains out.

Sorry...a little emotional there...we lost a boy last year to suicide, who wasn't gay but had been teased constantly and called gay. It was really, really horrible and I don't ever want to go through that again.

I would suggest that the biggest problem is that it is a discrimination that a majority of society still tend to pasively agree with. For example only yesterday in a radio article about HIV in immigrants an otherwise educated contributor said that HIV only moved to the heterosexual population when immigrants from Africa with HIV came to the UK. The thing that angered me most was that no one thought this worth challenging and it was just ignored. While attitudes like that are still seen as not being passive discrimination then society as a whole will continue to allow active discrimination.
Agreed. We can't just passively support LGBTT folks, it needs to be active. It's the same with racism or any form of bigotry...your silence adds to the idea that these ideas are 'ok'. If the bigots can just go on saying and doing terrible things with no repercussions, there will be no change.

Sorry...a little emotional there...we lost a boy last year to suicide, who wasn't gay but had been teased constantly and called gay. It was really, really horrible and I don't ever want to go through that again.
Which brings us back to the idea that there is a large problem to do with how society defines men and women and the false equation of macho to masculinity or passivity to femininity.

I always find it wierd to think of poeple who dont accept LGBTT stuff, i live just around people who are either female or one of the above and have, somehow, shut everything else out of my world. It just sounds wierd that such hatred would be practically institutionalized. Perhaps the golden future of acceptance i mentioned is further off than i thought. I just need to wiat for the generation above me to die, because you know that the middle classes now will rule the world of the future, and i am really interested to see what we come up with.

OK i fucked that post up, but take from it what you will.

I'm glad for you. The 50% rule has nearly claimed me as a statistic more than once.
I for one am very glad it hasn't.

The problem is getting people to stop caring. It's like the situation with black people, it took a long time to work it out of the general populace's minds, and it still isn't even fully gone.
People need to care before they stop caring. Confusing. Yes. It needs to be an active issue before it becomes a non-issue. Slavery never would have gotten rid of itself...it took action and it took a serious change in attitudes. Now slavery is reprehensible (though still practiced in less obvious, but just as terrible ways). It is a non-issue. People do not have slaves, and no one (but a few crackpots) say we should. The same goes for race and sexuality, and gender identity. Sh*t needs to be raised, before the dust can ever settle. At some point, people will just say 'mah, whatever'...but not until these issues are normalised. That means exposure first. Which is what makes it so difficult...the people who deal with it now are fighting an uphill battle...just as the anti-slavery, or civil-rights folks were. It's so, so much easier to just let things slide....

But it isn't right.

I kinda dislike LGBTTs because everyone of them I know is psychotic. If I met a sane LGBTT I would not mind them in the slightest.

because you know that the middle classes now will rule the world of the future, and i am really interested to see what we come up with.




I maintain that Greg Dyke is, and always will be, supreme ruler of the world, and if not the world, oceania. All hail big brother! may all your edicts be booming and glorious.
*hums oceania, tis for thee*

I've had the exact opposite situation though. Virtually every single person who I know, or associated with, was the same. moderately well off, extreme socialite.... it was like meeting people off of a production line, so I felt more than a little isolated.

Which brings us back to the idea that there is a large problem to do with how society defines men and women and the false equation of macho to masculinity or passivity to femininity.
Trust me, as a feminist, I absolutely agree gender is a sticky and stupid issue that also needs dealing with. Yes, society needs to change as a whole, and it will take time, and it will take hard work, and there will be setbacks, and victories, and more setbacks. What won't work is doing nothing.

I'm just getting all fired up and inspired here...maybe I should go have breakfast!:)

I kinda dislike LGBTTs because everyone of them I know is psychotic. If I met a sane LGBTT I would not mind them in the slightest.
What do you mean by psychotic?

Trust me, as a feminist, I absolutely agree gender is a sticky and stupid issue that also needs dealing with. Yes, society needs to change as a whole, and it will take time, and it will take hard work, and there will be setbacks, and victories, and more setbacks. What won't work is doing nothing.

I'm just getting all fired up and inspired here...maybe I should go have breakfast!:)
I think that one of the problems caused by issue politics is that there is a lack of connected thinking. These issues are all connected and link those who want a fairer society for LBGTT and for women. Ironically I believe that sorting this would actually lead to a society with happier straight men in it too.

Me too, maybe I should go home and be sweet to my loved one :D

I for one am very glad it hasn't.


People need to care before they stop caring. Confusing. Yes. It needs to be an active issue before it becomes a non-issue. Slavery never would have gotten rid of itself...it took action and it took a serious change in attitudes. Now slavery is reprehensible (though still practiced in less obvious, but just as terrible ways). It is a non-issue. People do not have slaves, and no one (but a few crackpots) say we should. The same goes for race and sexuality, and gender identity. Sh*t needs to be raised, before the dust can ever settle. At some point, people will just say 'mah, whatever'...but not until these issues are normalised. That means exposure first. Which is what makes it so difficult...the people who deal with it now are fighting an uphill battle...just as the anti-slavery, or civil-rights folks were. It's so, so much easier to just let things slide....

But it isn't right.


supreme concurrance to both statements. Echoed my sentiments exactly, much as I don't like the situation.

(though as an aside, NA, would it surprise you if it was you who has prompted me to be so frank with myself and actually motivate me enough to begin to do something about it? It's true. I'd kinda began to just live my life as I am and forget about the whole thing and accept that I'd have extreme periods of depression. From many angles it's the easy option for me. But then I (still admittedly, vaguely) got to know you, and you really made me realise that that plan is a non-starter before I really started to move on as much as I'd be able to. You did, also, prompt my second, way deeper depression... but you probably saved my life. Gushing, and full of cliche, but true. Does it make you feel awkward? :D )

i just wish more "older" people shared your view :)
Me too, my friend, me too. :(

one ran away from home, is on a million diffrent kind of drugs and as a child did many illegal things. Another hates pretty much everyone he meets whether they know he is gay or not. The one I am around most of the time hates her parents and thinks he is one of the worst off people in the world when her parents will not get her a new CD and she does not want to work when she grows up she just wants to be a bum. The that bugs me the most his this 14 year old guy who smokes and drinks way to much and the only reason he will dislike somebody is if they are happy for most of the day.

i found it funny not because of the fact he was a male nurse, but because of the way he was treated by other people, it summed up societys reaction pretty well, and with humour too
My older son is a Nurse, and a finer young man you'd never meet! I really have trouble with those who poke fun at "male nurses." I mean, here's someone who makes good money, performs a very valuable service, works very hard, and goes the extra mile for those in pain. What more could anyone ask of a career???

Sorry...a little emotional there...we lost a boy last year to suicide, who wasn't gay but had been teased constantly and called gay. It was really, really horrible and I don't ever want to go through that again.
I understand what happened with that kid...
It's hard to not try to erase yourself in some situations. Like when you come into school after being out for a week with bandages on your arms, and everyone immediately knows what happened. The teacher's don't give a fuck, and they just yell at you a bit for not being there because some important test happened. During lunch, you get dragged out behind the school and get the shit kicked out of you, and the other boys are calling you weak, calling you stupid, saying you're some worthless faggot. That you should go and finish the job. They manage to somehow rip a bandage, and they run at the sight of blood. They say they want to kill you, but they luckily can't go through with it. You manage to get to the nurse and get rebandaged before anything particularly bad happens. Other than the bloodstain on your favorite pair of pants that wrecks them permanently. The nurse asks how it happened, and you tell them every little bit, thinking you've finally found someone who might care just one tiny fraction of a bit, someone whose cold heart could be swayed. Some sort of help. But no, you have a history of past self-destructive events, and it gets written up to your psychiatrist as another self-injury. Your dad dosn't give a fuck, he's too busy struggling with his own self-imposed problems to notice that every single day you're dying a little bit more. Friends? Hell no. Anyone who befriended you would probably be in a hospital within a week.You get home, and decide you need to do something, anything, to try to distract yourself. You pick up a book. Whoops, your glasses break as you're walking into your room, one of the punches landed almost snapped the frame and you didn't notice, and the strain was finally too much. You get to spend to next three days unable to participate in class properly since your vision is so bad you can't even recognize your fellow students without glasses. You run out of saved money the same week, and get to begin your oh-so-fun methamphetamine withdrawal. You end the week by taking a bunch of your father's blood pressure meds and hoping your heart stops.

Sorry, I needed to vent. Needed to talk to somebody, anybody. Anything is better than talking to myself, talking to these walls, to everybody who isn't here.

one ran away from home, is on a million diffrent kind of drugs and as a child did many illegal things. Another hates pretty much everyone he meets whether they know he is gay or not. The one I am around most of the time hates her parents and thinks he is one of the worst off people in the world when her parents will not get her a new CD and she does not want to work when she grows up she just wants to be a bum. The that bugs me the most his this 14 year old guy who smokes and drinks way to much and the only reason he will dislike somebody is if they are happy for most of the day.
To be honest that sounds like a mixture of issues to do with age, sexuality and a whole bunch of other things. Any or all of them could have turned out exactly the same regardless of sexual orientqation

I think that one of the problems caused by issue politics is that there is a lack of connected thinking. These issues are all connected and link those who want a fairer society for LBGTT and for women. Ironically I believe that sorting this would actually lead to a society with happier straight men in it too.

Me too, maybe I should go home and be sweet to my loved one :D
Yeah, it drives me nuts when people say, "CHOOSE AN ISSUE ALREADY! Deal with feminism, or poverty, or the environment, but for the love of Andy, choose!"

Why would I separate issues that are so interconnected? I deal with issues from a gendered perspective, therefore I deal with issues as a feminist. I also deal with issues as a minority woman, as a mother, as someone who lives in the country, as a Canadian, and as a raving, maniac lefty. We are encouraged to fight one issue off against the other...it's education vs. health care, or race vs. gender...what crap.

Sorry, I needed to vent. Needed to talk to somebody, anybody. Anything is better than talking to myself, talking to these walls, to everybody who isn't here.
Go ahead and vent your spleen as much as you need.

[snip because of length]
thats...wow

talk about it all you want, i dont honestly think anybody would mind in anyway whatsoever.

and if they do, theyre assholes

one of my best friends (who was gay) went through pretty much the same thing....:(

supreme concurrance to both statements. Echoed my sentiments exactly, much as I don't like the situation.

(though as an aside, NA, would it surprise you if it was you who has prompted me to be so frank with myself and actually motivate me enough to begin to do something about it? It's true. I'd kinda began to just live my life as I am and forget about the whole thing and accept that I'd have extreme periods of depression. From many angles it's the easy option for me. But then I (still admittedly, vaguely) got to know you, and you really made me realise that that plan is a non-starter before I really started to move on as much as I'd be able to. You did, also, prompt my second, way deeper depression... but you probably saved my life. Gushing, and full of cliche, but true. Does it make you feel awkward? :D )
Actually, it should make NA feel very, very happy...you can't possibly know how much that can mean to someone. I know I wasn't the main person in my brother's life that stopped him from killing himself...a girlfriend was. If she hadn't been there, I would have lost him. You rock, NA!

Yeah, it drives me nuts when people say, "CHOOSE AN ISSUE ALREADY! Deal with feminism, or poverty, or the environment, but for the love of Andy, choose!"

Why would I separate issues that are so interconnected? I deal with issues from a gendered perspective, therefore I deal with issues as a feminist. I also deal with issues as a minority woman, as a mother, as someone who lives in the country, as a Canadian, and as a raving, maniac lefty. We are encouraged to fight one issue off against the other...it's education vs. health care, or race vs. gender...what crap.
As a fellow raving, maniac lefty I totally agree. Here the big thing is green issues and globalisation. Nobody ever stops and says, shit, d'ya think it might all be linked?

one ran away from home, is on a million diffrent kind of drugs and as a child did many illegal things. Another hates pretty much everyone he meets whether they know he is gay or not. The one I am around most of the time hates her parents and thinks he is one of the worst off people in the world when her parents will not get her a new CD and she does not want to work when she grows up she just wants to be a bum. The that bugs me the most his this 14 year old guy who smokes and drinks way to much and the only reason he will dislike somebody is if they are happy for most of the day.

Stop and read back over the descriptions you have just given. Do any of these people seem like happy, adjusted people to you? Is that BECAUSE they are LGBTT, or because they are extremely confused, not accepted, and hating themselves? People don't just turn miserable and hateful for no reason. Even normal, white, straight kids usually have a reason to get depressed. Does that make these people psychotic, or just people who don't have support or coping skills to deal with bigotry and their own identity confusion?

I understand what happened with that kid...
It's hard to not try to erase yourself in some situations. Like when you come into school after being out for a week with bandages on your arms, and everyone immediately knows what happened. The teacher's don't give a fuck, and they just yell at you a bit for not being there because some important test happened. During lunch, you get dragged out behind the school and get the shit kicked out of you, and the other boys are calling you weak, calling you stupid, saying you're some worthless faggot. That you should go and finish the job. They manage to somehow rip a bandage, and they run at the sight of blood. They say they want to kill you, but they luckily can't go through with it. You manage to get to the nurse and get rebandaged before anything particularly bad happens. Other than the bloodstain on your favorite pair of pants that wrecks them permanently. The nurse asks how it happened, and you tell them every little bit, thinking you've finally found someone who might care just one tiny fraction of a bit, someone whose cold heart could be swayed. Some sort of help. But no, you have a history of past self-destructive events, and it gets written up to your psychiatrist as another self-injury. Your dad dosn't give a fuck, he's too busy struggling with his own self-imposed problems to notice that every single day you're dying a little bit more. Friends? Hell no. Anyone who befriended you would probably be in a hospital within a week.You get home, and decide you need to do something, anything, to try to distract yourself. You pick up a book. Whoops, your glasses break as you're walking into your room, one of the punches landed almost snapped the frame and you didn't notice, and the strain was finally too much. You get to spend to next three days unable to participate in class properly since your vision is so bad you can't even recognize your fellow students without glasses. You run out of saved money the same week, and get to begin your oh-so-fun methamphetamine withdrawal. You end the week by taking a bunch of your father's blood pressure meds and hoping your heart stops.

Sorry, I needed to vent. Needed to talk to somebody, anybody. Anything is better than talking to myself, talking to these walls, to everybody who isn't here.
I would have befriended you and would then have dared anyone to bother you in any way. I've always been a warrior and probably will be until the day I die. I'm usually a really good one to have on your side; it's that "warrior mentality" I suppose, plus I have one bad mo'fo of a right upper-cut! :D

Oh noes, I've used up another letter that somebody else might need!
:D


Don't worry. You can have my share of letter. :D

supreme concurrance to both statements. Echoed my sentiments exactly, much as I don't like the situation.

(though as an aside, NA, would it surprise you if it was you who has prompted me to be so frank with myself and actually motivate me enough to begin to do something about it? It's true. I'd kinda began to just live my life as I am and forget about the whole thing and accept that I'd have extreme periods of depression. From many angles it's the easy option for me. But then I (still admittedly, vaguely) got to know you, and you really made me realise that that plan is a non-starter before I really started to move on as much as I'd be able to. You did, also, prompt my second, way deeper depression... but you probably saved my life. Gushing, and full of cliche, but true. Does it make you feel awkward? :D )
:eek:
I actually had a good effect on someone's life?
Thats... wow. Usually, when people are influenced by me, they end up dead.
Oh fuck, I'm being a general wet blanket here. I'm very happy that I've made some sort of general positive impact on somebody.
:fluffle:

To be honest that sounds like a mixture of issues to do with age, sexuality and a whole bunch of other things. Any or all of them could have turned out exactly the same regardless of sexual orientqation

You could be right. I still have not met a LGBTT that was not like those people I mentioned above. Once again, if I meet a sane one I would be able to get along with them. It might be because I go to a small school and I'm just getting the bad apples. I'm going to go to Comunity College for the summer semesters with 15000 people there, If I meet a LGBTT that is smart and not anto-social and all those things then I will quickly change my mind about these issuses.

:eek:
I actually had a good effect on someone's life?
Thats... wow. Usually, when people are influenced by me, they end up dead.
Oh fuck, I'm being a general wet blanket here. I'm very happy that I've made some sort of general positive impact on somebody.
:fluffle:
If it is of any use whatsoever I have always enjoyed your posting here. You are one of the people who's threads I will make a point of reading.

If it is of any use whatsoever I have always enjoyed your posting here. You are one of the people who's threads I will make a point of reading.
ditto

*snip*
I'm glad you ARE talking. Christ, this is what I mean...for whatever reason, whether it is an LGBTT issue, or anything else, people need to be listened to. We fail to do that so often in schools, in friendships, in relationships. I was suicidal for being a half-breed...the whites didn't want me and the natives said I was too white. Then when I started trying to make my own way, it got worse. Little things built up...a missed bus, homework forgotten, a fight with a friend...I lived my entire teen years (and into my early twenties, though I'm only 26 now) being as self-destructive as my timid nature could make me...doing as many drugs as I could find, drinking way beyond my capacity, doing dangerous sports even though I was terrified...sleeping with anyone I could find to give myself some self-worth. My husband was the first person I could talk to...and we didn't even talk about all the things I'd done, just how I felt. That was all I needed for all those years. Does that mean I couldn't have talked to my parents? I never tried...they had their own problems and I didn't want to make them worse. It's ironic though that my experience made me so aware of what my brother was going through, and that my parents were able to actively help him...they don't even know what I went through.

All it takes is one person to give a damn. To really listen, and not just judge you by your actions. To be active and help instead of hoping someone else will do it.

Ay Neo, you've stirred up a lot of feelings I thought I was done with, but this is really making me want to get back out there and DO something for real, something that counts and kick some serious ass when people ignore the danger signs...

Stop and read back over the descriptions you have just given. Do any of these people seem like happy, adjusted people to you? Is that BECAUSE they are LGBTT, or because they are extremely confused, not accepted, and hating themselves? People don't just turn miserable and hateful for no reason. Even normal, white, straight kids usually have a reason to get depressed. Does that make these people psychotic, or just people who don't have support or coping skills to deal with bigotry and their own identity confusion?

They were all excepted and no one made fun of them or anything not untill they became anti-social. I do definity think that are not happy people at all and those "normal" white straight kids are not sane if they are hatefull and miserable all the time.

I am quite sad I have to go offline now. :(
This is the first time anything on a forum has truely moved me. Look after yourselves people. :fluffle:

I'm glad you ARE talking. Christ, this is what I mean...for whatever reason, whether it is an LGBTT issue, or anything else, people need to be listened to. We fail to do that so often in schools, in friendships, in relationships.

I completely agree with you! I know to many people who don't listen at all. They only acknowledge any communication they receive with a simple "ok" or with a nod of the head, even if its an important personal issue.

:eek:
I actually had a good effect on someone's life?
Thats... wow. Usually, when people are influenced by me, they end up dead.
Oh fuck, I'm being a general wet blanket here. I'm very happy that I've made some sort of general positive impact on somebody.
:fluffle:

And you had no idea about it... always the way with these things, eh?
Still, you could frame my post and then force people to see it and then photograph and upload the facial responses to give me a chuckle?

As to your rant.... that's horrible... I managed to avoid it by being a better actor than I give myself credit for, though I doubt that's any help. Though for some reason I couldn't avoid it whenever I got a haircut... people seemed to think that when I had short hair I became so hilarious that they couldn't contain themselves. Whilst I couldn't even pretend to have gone through what you have, I know what it's like when thirty people burst out laughing at you for no good reason, just because you happened to walk into class. (of course, I probably didn't help matters by breaking down in tears whenever that happened, but never mind.)


group mentality sucks.

They were all excepted and no one made fun of them or anything not untill they became anti-social. I do definity think that are not happy people at all and those "normal" white straight kids are not sane if they are hatefull and miserable all the time.

How do you know there were accepted everywhere they were? Did their parents accept them? Did they even know they were LGBTT? How do you know no one EVER made fun of them? Were you always with them? Do you seriously think that unhappiness is only caused by mental illness? Have you never been unhappy about something? Calling someone insane, or psychotic because they are hurting, or anti-social because they choose to reject what has already rejected them is ignoring the real issue. You say you knew these people, but were you ever their friend? Did you ever ask what was wrong? Did you even care?

I'm sure plenty of those people were smart, and nice, and interesting, but you couldn't see it, and they probably couldn't either. That's not mental illness, that's life. We are social creatures, and we need other people, not just to stand there and watch us, but to BE with us, to interact with us, and above all, care about whether we live or die. You don't know the circumstances that made these people act in such ways, but it certainly is more complicated than psychosis.

I know these people and I talk with them and listen to them. They were made fun of less then I was for have such pale skin. They don't have problems with their parents (except for one whos parents are just irresponsible but do except them and what not). People are always trying to interact with them and most people don't know that thay are gay and such. People are always trying to talk with them and become friends with them. When people ask them why they are up set for so much of the time they give petty little reasons and will not explain things to people and alow us to listen and understand. For that I think they are not quite that sane but like I said earlier I might have gotten the bad apples. Don't get me wrong, when ever I meet a LGBTT person I don't just give up on them because the rest of the ones I know are completely anti-social and what not, I always try to be friends with them and takl to them, everytime.

I do think that the only reasons someone whould be unhappy pretty much all the time even when good things are happening are A. They took WAY to many drugs B. They are physically abused very very often (and some people I know who get beaten up alot or have family hit them are not chronicly unhappy people) C. This one seems to be the very worst, They are told constantly they are incapable of doing something or are not alowed to help you (this affects little kids alot, just telling them they are not able to help because they are small or what ever will make them sad quickly) or D. they are insane.

I find it so funny that something as deceptively simple as this forum can have such a great effect on our lives. That every thing I say, every word I type can fool with the flow of another's life. Maybe even snuff it out. I'm just glad I didn't cause a death.

I's funny how I feel now. Rather pathetic, actually. I feel completed. I've never really had a net positive effect on someone else's life, at least not great enough to compare with my mistakes. I've been directly responsible for the suicides of others, and I'm not proud. Death seems to follow me. What's funny is, now I feel something I've never felt before.
I guess you could call it closure. I feel like if I were to collapse now, dying from a heart attack, I wouldn't regret it.
Thank you, Jordaxia. You've made my day, if not my month by showing me I still have some worth.

Note to everyone:
If I say something that sounds like I'm going to kill myself, I don't really mean it. I'm clinging to life. I still have hope, and I still have much to atone for. I always wanted to help people. I wanted to be a doctor. But no, I can't. For most of my life until I began my self-destructive phase I was so terrified of blood I would faint, so I never got the proper beginning for it. I'm too forgetful to be a doctor, and my mental illnesses don't help either. Also, I have a trenor in my hands so bad I doubt I would be able to perform any sort of surgery without fucking up. So I guess I have to find another means of atonement...

Don't worry. You can have my share of letter. :D
-And you can have my share of cat litter ... used! :D

I do think that the only reasons someone whould be unhappy pretty much all the time even when good things are happening are A. They took WAY to many drugs B. They are physically abused very very often (and some people I know who get beaten up alot or have family hit them are not chronicly unhappy people) C. This one seems to be the very worst, They are told constantly they are incapable of doing something or are not alowed to help you (this affects little kids alot, just telling them they are not able to help because they are small or what ever will make them sad quickly) or D. they are insane.
What about E. They are clinically depressed?

This is a brilliant thread. When I noticed its length originally, I assumed some people had come to be critical, but am heartened to see that it is not the case - that many people out there actually are tolerant and caring.

I would respond to specific points, but previous posters have already said anything I wanted to add. Just wanted to state how cool reading all your thoughts was :)

I's funny how I feel now. Rather pathetic, actually. I feel completed. I've never really had a net positive effect on someone else's life, at least not great enough to compare with my mistakes.
That you know of.

I've been directly responsible for the suicides of others, and I'm not proud.
How are you directly responsible? Did you physically help them end their lives? No one can be directly responsible for someone else's actions. Suicide is a terrible thing that stains everyone with shame, anger and guilt. That's normal. But you can only do what you are capable, at that moment, of doing to help someone else. When you are down in that dark, deep pit of despair, no amount of pleading or reaching out can touch you...you feel alone even in a crowd of people who love you. You can not see a way out. Others can try, and please, please keep trying, but they can't force a person to make a different choice.

If I say something that sounds like I'm going to kill myself, I don't really mean it. I'm clinging to life. I still have hope, and I still have much to atone for. I always wanted to help people. I wanted to be a doctor. But no, I can't. For most of my life until I began my self-destructive phase I was so terrified of blood I would faint, so I never got the proper beginning for it. I'm too forgetful to be a doctor, and my mental illnesses don't help either. Also, I have a trenor in my hands so bad I doubt I would be able to perform any sort of surgery without fucking up. So I guess I have to find another means of atonement...
It sounds like you could really help people by looking at your own experiences, and acknowledging that people NEED help other than purely medical...social work or mentoring is a draining, hard job, but it can make a real difference...

So can just living life and lending an ear.

How are you directly responsible? Did you physically help them end their lives? No one can be directly responsible for someone else's actions. Suicide is a terrible thing that stains everyone with shame, anger and guilt. That's normal. But you can only do what you are capable, at that moment, of doing to help someone else. When you are down in that dark, deep pit of despair, no amount of pleading or reaching out can touch you...you feel alone even in a crowd of people who love you. You can not see a way out. Others can try, and please, please keep trying, but they can't force a person to make a different choice.
Here, examples:
I met a girl who was very friendly. We grew close over the space of a year. We were like sisters. Of course, then I accidentally let out to the entire school that she was lesbian. Her parents hated her for it, she was ostracized by the school. Within a month, she was laying under six feet of cold earth. And I got a nice mention on her suicide note too.

One of my friends I had stayed in contect with since early childhood in Texas moved up to Vermont. We were closer than ever, until one day when he told me that he was severely depressed and he didn't know who to tell, and thought since I was depressed and had managed to deal with it that I might know who he should turn to. I told him not to give up, and that I could get him an appointment at the counseling center I went to, and for free too. He was realy grateful for my advice. As we were parting, he made a comment about feeling like suicide or harming himself. I made a joke referencing those with suicidal impulses as weak, and I was sure he'd recognize it as a joke, since he well knew that I was severely depressed. Well, turns out he took it seriously. He didn't show up at school on that Monday, and I thought it was since his parent's were away for a few days and he missed the bus or something. I got there, and the door was unlocked. it was quiet inside. I walked upstairs, and found him dead. He had written a note specifically to me as well, which was how I realized that he took my bad joke seriously.

Okay, I agree I wasn't solely responsible, but I had a large influence.

It sounds like you could really help people by looking at your own experiences, and acknowledging that people NEED help other than purely medical...social work or mentoring is a draining, hard job, but it can make a real difference...
The medical route was the one I always found interesting, and the only one I ever felt like I had a chance with. I can't relate to others well, and I'm bad at saying the right things. I tried to mentor a little boy for the Big Brothers Big Sisters program, but I couldn't handle it and had to bow out. That was terrible, since helping this child was one of the few things I could ever get committed to. But I couldn't deal with it. Mostly, my attempts at helping others have ended in defeat.
So can just living life and lending an ear.
I suppose that's the most I can really do right now.

NA if it helps at all: my dad has been suicidal at times in my life and came close to doing it. I have talked with him about it then and now when he is coping. He was at great pains to tell me that from his point of view he saw it as a fundamentally selfish act that he considered for his own sake. He wanted me to understand that nothing I could or had said or done would have any effect on his decision either way. He felt that it was something uniquely personal and private to him.

I can't really answer any of the options you gave. I'm fine with them as people and don't believe governments should in any way restrict their behavior. I have friends that fit into more than one of the groups you mentioned.

I don't believe that any sexual behavior other than manogamous sexual behavior between a husband(married male) and wife (married female) is moral or sanctioned by God/the Bible. This doesn't change the fact that I should care about them just as I would any other sinful human being and since we are all sinful, that means I should treat them the same as I would anyone else.

I am very LGBTT friendly and argue for their rights to equal treatment under the law. I am old enough to be aware that I cannot change the way people feel about things they do not understand, but the law is a different matter all together.

Incidently, my brother is homosexual as are most of my close friends.

*snip*
It sounds like you've really been through some terrible things. I won't lie and say you didn't have any influence on these people, but I will remind you that you were certainly not the deciding factor in their deaths. That could have been anything...you know yourself that when you are down, even small things can be the final straw. Your friend wasn't ready to be outed, and the backlash was terrible for her. That doesn't mean she killed herself because you outed her...if she had been outed and her parents had been supportive, if her peers had been fine with it, if, if, if...she made that final decision, and it was certainly based on many things, not just your actions. We're human, we make mistakes...and we have to live with them if we choose to live. That's what makes life so hard.

A girl I grew up with was abused by her brother. She told me about it after 16 years, one drunken night, and in my shock, I wrote about it in my journal. Someone read it, and soon the story was out. I had to call her before she heard it from someone else and explain what had happened, so she would be prepared. She hasn't spoken to me since. She didn't kill herself, but that guilt will always be with me. Guilt lingers. It doesn't mean we are fundamentally bad people, or even people who act badly. We are flawed, and we screw up, and guess what, we'll keep screwing up along the way. In the meantime, we can be as honest as possible with ourselves and with others, and we can ask for help when we're hurting, and try to help when others are hurting, but in the middle of the night, when we wake with our conscience stinging, and our heart aching, we only have ourselves. Learning to live with that ultimate loneliness without going mad is the ultimate endurance test.

I have lost many friends and relatives to suicide (it's an unfortunate fact that native suicide rates, especially completions are much higher than the national average). I've felt like following them sometimes, and I've been angry at their weakness, then devastated by their absence, then paralised by guilt about not stopping it somehow, and I have no doubt I'll go through it again in the future. I can try, I can be aware, I can offer my help, but I can't decide for someone else whether they choose life or death. I can't give myself that power, no matter how much I wish I could. Neither can you.

It's okay to feel like sh*t about it. It's okay to question and analyse your actions, and to feel guilt. It's okay to wish it different, but you can't internalise it and make it a flaw in yourself. Their deaths do not make you fundamentally good or evil, right or wrong, perfect or flawed.

Edit: I'm sorry for sounding so preachy. It's hard to explain this. I just want you to know that your worth comes from within, not without...sounds cliche, I know.