NationStates Jolt Archive

The level of debate on NS sometimes seems to me really weird. I'd never expect to have a serious argument IRL on topics like "Is homosexuality wrong?" or "Is premarital sex wrong?" with anyone under the age of 50. Nor have I ever met anyone IRL who isn't pretty certain that man-made climate-change is happening. When a couple of schools in the UK wanted to teach that "evolution is a theory and we believe in creation" the media/public reaction was that they were wacko but what the hey, not to have a huge debate about "intelligent design" in the serious newspapers.

There are arguments here about interracial marriage, about racial superiority, about religious superiority, all stuff that just appears to be settled where I come from.

My point is that on the whole in these arguments, it seems to be a stack of americans with 10% of non-americans on one side, and a stack of americans and 90% of non-americans on the other.

So am I anti-american, or are there really a huge number of americans who have these opinions that seem to be based on ignorance and weird religious values?

Or is the 50% of americans that love bush actually right, and me and my liberal continent that unquestioningly believed liberal softsoap?

I mean it, what are they playing at?

im going to run with "it seems to be a stack of americans with 10% of non-americans on one side, and a stack of americans and 90% of non-americans on the other. "

mainly because i agree with your other viewpoints

I think what you are picking up on is that America increasingly has a problem of religious fundamentalism. It is only to be expected that the majority of outside observers, looking in, would find plenty to laugh at. One sees similar debates concerning the values of other countries with a significant fundamentalist movement.

mainly, bush used fear and religion to win, so there are about 49% who actually buy the republican line. also, his approval rating plummeted below 50% a few weeks after the election, once more people realized they ahd been lied to. as to whether a lot of americans are just ignorant, that is probably true. we worry more about one of those trashy shows on tv rather than the fact that our casualties from iraq has exceeded *10,000. most people, i believe, are honestly doingwhat they feel is right, but they have let intrenched dogma cloud their own conscience. by the way, that 90% and 10% thing got me confused. it may be because i just woke up, but could you simplify it?

*casualties include wounded.

Congratulations to Independent Homsteads for embarking on his first journey to see what more there is beyond the borders of his little village. Good job squirt, that's the spirit. :fluffle:

Maybe soon you'll even dare to have another opinion than your parents, that'll be the day! :D

America also has a problem about way the people use their brain.. most just pick slogans and treat those things like their authentic thoughts..

What i've seen so far here is people saying: "Yeah, bush sucks but Kerry would be much worse"... y? I know of bush's involvment with binladins and oil industry, not to mention haliburton... while haven't heard nothing similar about Kerry...so pleas, someone explain me why bush is considered better... why kerry is treated like some kind of inept? you got some facts to support this?

Another thing i heard is "bush is good cus he doesn't govern by polls" if that means that he sees the polls (aka what people wants) and then do whatever he wants... that from my point of view is the exact opposite of democracy... If u vote someone u should hope that he does something you want, not the total opposite.... what's going on with you people?

I really don't get it

by the way, that 90% and 10% thing got me confused. it may be because i just woke up, but could you simplify it?



I think that was implying that most non-Americans side with the liberal. Which is about right. Damned conservatives. *Grumbles*.

Congratulations to Independent Homsteads for embarking on his first journey to see what more there is beyond the borders of his little village. Good job squirt, that's the spirit. :fluffle:

Maybe soon you'll even dare to have another opinion than your parents, that'll be the day! :D

Yes, congratulations. You've made it further than most Americans ever will. :)

Congratulations to Independent Homsteads for embarking on his first journey to see what more there is beyond the borders of his little village. Good job squirt, that's the spirit. :fluffle:

Maybe soon you'll even dare to have another opinion than your parents, that'll be the day! :D

... If he is writing here that means he sees with his own eyes that something is wrong... i don't understand what makes you think you have some kind of "global awareness" or smth...

what about your opinion?

I think this perception stems from the facts that the political spectrum of the US is essentially a two party system and the oh so liberal democrats would be considered middleground in most european countries.

The level of debate on NS sometimes seems to me really weird. I'd never expect to have a serious argument IRL on topics like "Is homosexuality wrong?" or "Is premarital sex wrong?" with anyone under the age of 50. Nor have I ever met anyone IRL who isn't pretty certain that man-made climate-change is happening. When a couple of schools in the UK wanted to teach that "evolution is a theory and we believe in creation" the media/public reaction was that they were wacko but what the hey, not to have a huge debate about "intelligent design" in the serious newspapers.

There are arguments here about interracial marriage, about racial superiority, about religious superiority, all stuff that just appears to be settled where I come from.

My point is that on the whole in these arguments, it seems to be a stack of americans with 10% of non-americans on one side, and a stack of americans and 90% of non-americans on the other.

So am I anti-american, or are there really a huge number of americans who have these opinions that seem to be based on ignorance and weird religious values?

Or is the 50% of americans that love bush actually right, and me and my liberal continent that unquestioningly believed liberal softsoap?
Hmmm. Quite a mouthful there.

There are indeed a number of Americans who believe in "creationism" and who are anti-abortion, and who believe that homosexuality is wrong. I'm not trying to justify their positions on these issues, but you should try to remember that most of them have been taught these things since birth. It takes a great deal of personal strength to take each of your beliefs out and examine them critically, and not many people can do it.

Bush is quite hilarious. He wants to achieve peace through war. USA is the nation that has invaded more countries than any other. However, sometimes I hear them (Americans...) babbling something like : "We're against terrorism. The war on terrorism will continue." For Christ sake, Bush is worse than a terrorist. He doesn't kill himself with a bomb, so he just keeps on coming. One of my teacher said to me about 3 years ago, when she visited the sates, that her friends (the ones who she was visiting...) told her that a big percentage of Americans were close-minded, ignorant and just followed the flock. I can't believe USA is a world potence...

Is it possible that there is simply more diversity of opinion in the US than there is in those countries where free debate is less of a tradition?

Americans in general seem to me to have a wider and flatter distribution of opinions than some countries - and are much less susceptible to 'taking a good opportunity to shut up'.

In much of Europe for example, someone who has a 'politically incorrect' opinion keeps it to himself. In America he buys a billboard.

Remember that in a forum like this, people only comment if they CARE about the issue - so if 95% of the population thinks its a boring/settled argument, the people that post are either the fringe or those who like to bait the fringe.

America does have a fairly strong Fundamentalist movement - nowhere near enough to win an election with, but certainly a force. Are those people not entitled to a viewpoint?

(I'm in the second category with respect to bait above, please watch for the hook.)

You will find varying opinions on any of these issues with any large group of people. If you have truly never met anyone who's opinion is different from your own you travel in very limited circles and likely should get out more. When any two people always agree one of them is not needed at all.

Anti-American? No, I believe you, as am I, are anti-stupidity. The right wing agenda in the US is leading to a Theocracy. I as an American am trying to help remove the blinders of my fellow country men. The so-called land of the free is systematically losing constitutional rights through such bills as the "Patriot Act" and gay marriage amendments (in the works). By the way isn't it ironic that a bill that wipes out so many fundamental rights be called the "Patriot Act". That's like calling cyanide gas "funny fumes". I digress.

USA is the nation that has invaded more countries than any other.

Thats an interesting claim, any chance you can back it?

Perhaps we could list those countries America has ever invaded, and compare it to - say - England, France, Germany, Spain, Russia... or do invasions only count if they happened last year?

Honest debate should start with honesty.

Some of the people on this forum clearly feel America is doing wrong in the world - OK you get an opinion too - but don't deny the same right to an opinion to those who lost people in New York.

What about those who lost people in Hiroshima. or Nagasaki, or Osaka, Kobe, Tokyo, North Vietnam, etc etc... Terror is a tool of war, has always been, will always be. Honestly, I think the Americans should stop whining about New York, it's getting annoying.

Anti-stupidity, I like that.

I do think that the excuse that people have heard things and have been taught certain points of view since is rather weak. That would imply that most people are nothing else but mindless sheep (which would prove Hitler's statement right "The large mass of people are stupid and blind"). Just because I have been told certain things in my youth doesn't mean I'm forced to stick with those for the rest of my life. Most people are just too lazy to do something about it. Most... are just sheep.

Is it possible that there is simply more diversity of opinion in the US than there is in those countries where free debate is less of a tradition?

Americans in general seem to me to have a wider and flatter distribution of opinions than some countries - and are much less susceptible to 'taking a good opportunity to shut up'.

In much of Europe for example, someone who has a 'politically incorrect' opinion keeps it to himself. In America he buys a billboard.

Remember that in a forum like this, people only comment if they CARE about the issue - so if 95% of the population thinks its a boring/settled argument, the people that post are either the fringe or those who like to bait the fringe.

America does have a fairly strong Fundamentalist movement - nowhere near enough to win an election with, but certainly a force. Are those people not entitled to a viewpoint?

(I'm in the second category with respect to bait above, please watch for the hook.)

ohhh..... bait. HELL NO! NOT IF IT CREATES INTOLERANCE!!! (hoping the hook does not pinch!)

Anti-American? No, I believe you, as am I, are anti-stupidity. The right wing agenda in the US is leading to a Theocracy. I as an American am trying to help remove the blinders of my fellow country men. The so-called land of the free is systematically losing constitutional rights through such bills as the "Patriot Act" and gay marriage amendments (in the works). By the way isn't it ironic that a bill that wipes out so many fundamental rights be called the "Patriot Act". That's like calling cyanide gas "funny fumes". I digress.
You are seriously reality-challenged. What freedoms have you lost? Tell me.

Hmmm. Quite a mouthful there.

There are indeed a number of Americans who believe in "creationism" and who are anti-abortion, and who believe that homosexuality is wrong. I'm not trying to justify their positions on these issues, but you should try to remember that most of them have been taught these things since birth. It takes a great deal of personal strength to take each of your beliefs out and examine them critically, and not many people can do it.

I understand that someone can be religious in an extreme way or believe that homosexuality is wrong but I think that it isn't enough to stop other people from being different. Even if I were strongly against religion and if i had the majority...i wouldn't feel right to stop others from believing... as long as a thing doesnt harm other people why don't let others do it? Abortion is a risky point since a life is involved but heck...who cares about homosexuality? if u dont want to be it fine, just don't bother people who are

I think Europeans actually liked the Soviet Union. They seemed lost for a few years without someone around to hate, so once they found someone else to hate, they are happy again.

Or maybe Europeans are mad that the US does not want to be as left as they are? Sure, why not. But suppose it did happen? Then what? They would still be pissed off.

Europeans NEED to hate SOMEONE. Jews, Soviets, Germans, the US, anyone.

ohhh..... bait. HELL NO! NOT IF IT CREATES INTOLERANCE!!! (hoping the hook does not pinch!)

We certainly wouldn't want someone to decide that some opinions are 'a priori' right, and others are 'a priori' wrong... and to then declare those wrong ones to be "intolerant" right?

Wouldn't that attitude seem... well intolerant?

[QUOTE=Greater Yubari]What about those who lost people in Hiroshima. or Nagasaki, or Osaka, Kobe, Tokyo, North Vietnam, etc etc... Terror is a tool of war, has always been, will always be. Honestly, I think the Americans should stop whining about New York, it's getting annoying./QUOTE]

Well thats sort of the point. There is a war underway. America didn't start it. You may not like the way they are fighting it, they don't like the way the other side is fighting it. Terror is a weapon both are using. War is evil, all parties get dirty.

If you want to end the mess prevent the next war, its too late for this one.

Thats an interesting claim, any chance you can back it?

Perhaps we could list those countries America has ever invaded, and compare it to - say - England, France, Germany, Spain, Russia... or do invasions only count if they happened last year?

Honest debate should start with honesty.

Some of the people on this forum clearly feel America is doing wrong in the world - OK you get an opinion too - but don't deny the same right to an opinion to those who lost people in New York.

Germany had it's stupidity moment but it is over in a way we all know. England, spain, france occupied during colonialism...ther wasn't things like human rights... in this "modern" era america is with no doubt the most war-loving nation... russia now is an american creation... same behaviour tho less power...



I think Europeans actually liked the Soviet Union. They seemed lost for a few years without someone around to hate, so once they found someone else to hate, they are happy again.

Or maybe Europeans are mad that the US does not want to be as left as they are? Sure, why not. But suppose it did happen? Then what? They would still be pissed off.

Europeans NEED to hate SOMEONE. Jews, Soviets, Germans, the US, anyone.


Actually i liked CCCP... And never hated none of this groups...well maybe 5x% of the last one...



You are seriously reality-challenged. What freedoms have you lost? Tell me.


Want one? Patriotic act made intromission in private life quite an easy thing... it's not vs terorism because there are still low security measures on planes, low coast security etc...it's just to keep track of people who think differently

I think that was implying that most non-Americans side with the liberal. Which is about right. Damned conservatives. *Grumbles*.

lol. I'm conservative. At least, I guess to you I'd be British Fundamentalist Conservative Evangelical Christian who thinks Bush was better than Kerry....thing is, you'd be right......
"And in the last days it shall be as the days of Noah" :P. Liberals are banging up a bunch of immoral laws...
I know I'm gonna get hammered.....ah well, I'm a MILITANT Christian :sniper:

We certainly wouldn't want someone to decide that some opinions are 'a priori' right, and others are 'a priori' wrong... and to then declare those wrong ones to be "intolerant" right?

Wouldn't that attitude seem... well intolerant?

Yes. I personally won't tolerate intolerance. If a political group beleives that genocide is an acceptable form of population control, or that certain groups are inferior, or try to inspire hatred, then I would say, ban the party.

Freedom of speech is all very nice and good, but in the US don't you have the freedom of movement? Yet is this not restricted to certain people, if they have cause certain offences? (please correct if wrong). So why not for speech?

I understand that someone can be religious in an extreme way or believe that homosexuality is wrong but I think that it isn't enough to stop other people to be different. Even if I were strongly against religion and if i had the majority...i wouldn't feel right to stop others from believing... as long as a thing doesnt harm other people why don't let others do it? Abortion is a risky point since a life is involved but heck...who cares about homosexuality? if u dont want to be it fine, just don't bother people who are

I happen to be religious in an extreme way then. There's no way you can persecute homosexuals and I wouldn't think that a good idea. I just don't think they should be given the status of marriage, cos homosexual sex is NOT marriage.....
and abortion is murder. lol. THAT's gonna make a bunch of people mad.

I happen to be religious in an extreme way then. There's no way you can persecute homosexuals and I wouldn't think that a good idea. I just don't think they should be given the status of marriage, cos homosexual sex is NOT marriage.....
and abortion is murder. lol. THAT's gonna make a bunch of people mad.

Uh, you can't give them status of christian marriage because it's something only church can do but you can treat in the same way a straight couple and a gay couple...that's civil union and church should stay out of this.

Freedom of speech is all very nice and good, but in the US don't you have the freedom of movement? Yet is this not restricted to certain people, if they have cause certain offences? (please correct if wrong). So why not for speech?

First - I'm not American (for the record).

There are all kinds of reasonable limits on freedom of speech. You are advocating restrictions on freedom of thought - a very different thing.

Even excepting that argument though, you can't argue intolerance as a cure for intolerance. If people do not have the right to say things that may offend others... well we both need to shut up right?

I think Europeans actually liked the Soviet Union. They seemed lost for a few years without someone around to hate, so once they found someone else to hate, they are happy again.

Or maybe Europeans are mad that the US does not want to be as left as they are? Sure, why not. But suppose it did happen? Then what? They would still be pissed off.

Europeans NEED to hate SOMEONE. Jews, Soviets, Germans, the US, anyone.

Europeans do not need to hate someone. And Europe isn't full of heavily left wing countries. It contains a wide variety of left wing and right wing governments. If Europe thinks America is too right wing, it is because America is veering on being extremist right wing.

You guys are horrible people with you USA bashing. The Americans should be allowed to do anything they want because they're bigger than you(so get in their belly). As everyone knows, without the US The world would be wasted and all be speaking German or Russian..... :rolleyes: /sarcasm

Europeans do not need to hate someone. And Europe isn't full of heavily left wing countries. It contains a wide variety of left wing and right wing governments. If Europe thinks America is too right wing, it is because America is veering on being extremist right wing.

Any chance that where an individual sits on the (arbitrary) left-right scale would prejudice their view of where the center was?

If you are correct - IF - then Americans would see you all a lefty, and you'd see them as a righty.

As I am correct... naturally... I think you're both lefties. Bush is a commie! Kerry was worse. When can we get a conservative in the white house?

(Ducks out to do some real work now)

Europeans NEED to hate SOMEONE. Jews, Soviets, Germans, the US, anyone.
Let me answer this in the kind words you deserve: Grow a brain, fuckwit.

Any chance that where an individual sits on the (arbitrary) left-right scale would prejudice their view of where the center was?

If you are correct - IF - then Americans would see you all a lefty, and you'd see them as a righty.

As I am correct... naturally... I think you're both lefties. Bush is a commie! Kerry was worse. When can we get a conservative in the white house?

(Ducks out to do some real work now)

I would define the centre of the scale to be in the middle in respect to governments throughout the world, and most people would agree that in comparison to the rest of the world America is towards the right end of the scale.

I think Europeans actually liked the Soviet Union. They seemed lost for a few years without someone around to hate, so once they found someone else to hate, they are happy again.

Or maybe Europeans are mad that the US does not want to be as left as they are? Sure, why not. But suppose it did happen? Then what? They would still be pissed off.

Europeans NEED to hate SOMEONE. Jews, Soviets, Germans, the US, anyone.


This is a bit crazy, but with a kernal of truth.

All nations seem to pick another to point at and say you are bad. (sometimes justified, sometimes not)

For some reason people in the US like to pick on France.

Germans seem to hate Turks.

It goes on and on.

First - I'm not American (for the record).

There are all kinds of reasonable limits on freedom of speech. You are advocating restrictions on freedom of thought - a very different thing.

Even excepting that argument though, you can't argue intolerance as a cure for intolerance. If people do not have the right to say things that may offend others... well we both need to shut up right?

no i believe in restriciting freedom of speech. Your thoughts are your own, until you attempt to influence others. but even when i beleive in such an extreme restriction it is only regarding insightment to hatred and such.

what is funny is how they(conservatives) use biblical quotes to justify the war. now, i supported the afghan war, because that one we could decisively link to the terroristcell responsible for 9/11. but saddam was pretty much keeping to himself, and that would have been fine by me. now, he did kill innocent people, and he was a dictator, but we should have told the un, 'hey, this guy is doing bad things o his citizens. he may not be responsible for 9/11, or even linked to them, but this guy shouldn't be in power anymore. how 'bout we up the sanctions at least, or send in peacekeepers, in order for tere to be a real election?" but we didn't. we said he was osama's friend, and we were gonna get him with or without the un. big mistake. i guess i got off track, back to the religious conservatives. this one pastor guy was on fox and prasied god in 'helping' wipe out the insurgents, terrorists, etc. now, if you have read the old testament, god does do that stuff, but in the new testament, god decides to rule w/ a light touch. that's why he said 'forgive(love) your enemies...turn the other cheek...blessed are the peacemakers..." sorry this is so long, and thanks for explaining that to me.

I would define the centre of the scale to be in the middle in respect to governments throughout the world, and most people would agree that in comparison to the rest of the world America is towards the right end of the scale.

Well by that definition you could be correct.

By that definition Democracy itself is a pretty aberrant tradition - not sure that that's a useful measure.

America describes itself, since its inception, as a new and different kind of nation. It is based entirely on a fairly simple (and at the time radical) set of rules. Interestingly they (in their literal form) are the advocacy set of the modern liberal.

If I was in a room where the vast majority of people were disposed to X, and I was disposed to Y - then either I'm wrong, the room is, or we both are. But the number of people in the room does not 'a priori' determine which it is. If a million people say something stupid, its still stupid.

Were I, say, advocating religious tolerance at the Nuremberg rallies in the late 30's I'd be extremely (possibly fatally) politically incorrect. In my value system however - I'd still be morally correct. Interesting things happen when political correctness and moral correctness collide.

The level of debate on NS sometimes seems to me really weird. I'd never expect to have a serious argument IRL on topics like "Is homosexuality wrong?" or "Is premarital sex wrong?" with anyone under the age of 50. Nor have I ever met anyone IRL who isn't pretty certain that man-made climate-change is happening. When a couple of schools in the UK wanted to teach that "evolution is a theory and we believe in creation" the media/public reaction was that they were wacko but what the hey, not to have a huge debate about "intelligent design" in the serious newspapers.

There are arguments here about interracial marriage, about racial superiority, about religious superiority, all stuff that just appears to be settled where I come from.

My point is that on the whole in these arguments, it seems to be a stack of americans with 10% of non-americans on one side, and a stack of americans and 90% of non-americans on the other.

So am I anti-american, or are there really a huge number of americans who have these opinions that seem to be based on ignorance and weird religious values?

Or is the 50% of americans that love bush actually right, and me and my liberal continent that unquestioningly believed liberal softsoap?

Out of experience, and not out of a sense of religious idiocy, I can say that I believe that for most people, premarital sex is a mistake (based on the fact that most people can't dissociate the emotion from the act, and someone eventually gets hurt - I'll skip the pregnancy and potential for disease since those are avoidable).

I don't have any problem with homosexuality - it's natural. I do have a problem with promiscuity - no matter who does it - but there are times and places for promiscuity.

I am religious - but I believe it's a personal matter. I talk to God every night and he never talks about you.

It's possible to believe in evolution, and still believe that God set the whole thing in motion. It's possible to believe in the Big Bang theory and still believe that God set the whole thing in motion.

There is plenty of interracial marriage in the US. So I don't know where you get your impression from. I am a product of interracial marriage. From 1960. In the US. And I am in an interracial marriage. My third. In the US.

I go to fundamentalist Pentacostal churches - on a regular basis - and I have NEVER heard anything about gays, interracial marriage, or creationism on Sunday - from the first service to the last Bible class.

I, like other Pentacostals, am there for MY relationship with God. Not someone else's perceived sins.

And yes, I carry a gun all the time. Statistics in our area show a radical drop in violent crime as a result. So it's settled - we think that in our area, civilians carrying guns deters violent crime.

Maybe you need to come to America and stay six months at my house. You might get a different opinion.

The level of debate on NS sometimes seems to me really weird. I'd never expect to have a serious argument IRL on topics like "Is homosexuality wrong?" or "Is premarital sex wrong?" with anyone under the age of 50. Nor have I ever met anyone IRL who isn't pretty certain that man-made climate-change is happening. When a couple of schools in the UK wanted to teach that "evolution is a theory and we believe in creation" the media/public reaction was that they were wacko but what the hey, not to have a huge debate about "intelligent design" in the serious newspapers.

There are arguments here about interracial marriage, about racial superiority, about religious superiority, all stuff that just appears to be settled where I come from.

My point is that on the whole in these arguments, it seems to be a stack of americans with 10% of non-americans on one side, and a stack of americans and 90% of non-americans on the other.

So am I anti-american, or are there really a huge number of americans who have these opinions that seem to be based on ignorance and weird religious values?

Or is the 50% of americans that love bush actually right, and me and my liberal continent that unquestioningly believed liberal softsoap?

It might serve to point out that debates and socially excepted norms can flow back and forth. Expanding and contracting. Right now the US's tolerance of "left wing" ideas has contracted sharply, while "right wing" ideas have achieved a new zenith of popularity as their power has expanded.

That's all. Many liberals in the US are looking to Europe like a man stumbling out of the shower to answer the phone; "Sorry, you've caught me at a bad time." Give the US some time, and these problems will be at a NEW stage; maybe they'll get more right wing, but more likely we'll see a return to center within several years.

The simplest way to look at these problems are, "Will this work?" Governments that was too far to one side of the political spectrum are weaker than centrist ones. The extremes are unstable by their very nature, look at Afganistan, the former USSR, etc. All throughout the last 4 years we've seen increasing problems with corruption in the US. How much longer can this go on before we must return to more asture ways of living?

Right now, the right wing is in ascension, but they've taken far too much dirty laundry along with them. Sooner or later someone will have to clean house; and the pointless metaphors will stop ;).

Europeans NEED to hate SOMEONE. Jews, Soviets, Germans, the US, anyone.Let me answer this in the kind words you deserve: Grow a brain, fuckwit.
Let me answer this with a comment from a moderator.

Stop it with the ad hominem attacks, Jester III. While we're at it, stop it with the trolling, Baraga.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Moderator Team

Uh, you can't give them status of christian marriage because it's something only church can do but you can treat in the same way a straight couple and a gay couple...that's civil union and church should stay out of this.

Uh-uh. What about gay adoption? that's what comes out of that. Any kid with that kinda background would have some problems. You know, "you mama and yo' ma". That's just sick.

Want one? Patriotic act made intromission in private life quite an easy thing... it's not vs terorism because there are still low security measures on planes, low coast security etc...it's just to keep track of people who think differently

Still didn;t give one. And he said what freedoms have you lost. If it was true what you said, why isn;t Ward Churchill behind bars? Michael Moore? Answer me that. And don;t say because it is too public, because abviously you don't think a "despotic oppressive" government would care what the media did. Or that they would change the media.