NationStates Jolt Archive

Let's say you had the opportunity to reform and perfect the world we currently live in --- at a cost. You had to kill a certain number of people in order to accomplish the task. This spurs the many questions:

Would you do it?
How many would you be willing to kill?
Over hong a period would you be willing to have this occur?
What type of people would you be willing to kill ?
How horribly would you be willing to have people killed?
Would the "perfect" society still be good, despite its basis?

This poll is simply based on numbers under whatever assumptions you make from the questions.


And no, I'm not a mass murderer. I'm an existential nihilist who, though effected by the Holocaust, is still quite aware of the far more devastating affects of overpopulation in the world... Though if I had the chance, I'm not sure I'd be willing to do it.

Would I do it? Most likely not.

I would never kill any number of people for a cause. If I kill someone, it's going to be for the sake of killing them. Not in the sense of revenge, as it's a cause itself.

So I guess my answer is 'none'. However, if someone else were to use that method to 'perfect' the world (and it worked), I wouldn't imagine the world would be any less perfect because of the method itself.

/incoherent rambling

you forgot the more than 75% option

I'm just saying that there is a whole stigma about killing, yet we kill numerous people everyday, whether by euthanasia, abortion, capital punishment, negligence, crime, wars, etc.
PLUS, we still have many to blame for the things that lead to these problems that cause the deaths of others.

The bottom line is, there are too many people in the world, and my fanatical nihilistic view on the whole thing is, since you're going to die anyways, why not die now in order for future generations to live better. You could have a plack if that makes you feel any better as your body is consumed by bacteria and your conscience bleeds into nothingness...

It's either that or enforcing a one child law.

Then again, it's all pointless as the omniverse will implode and it will be all for not...

Let's say you had the opportunity to reform and perfect the world we currently live in --- at a cost. You had to kill a certain number of people in order to accomplish the task. This spurs the many questions:

Would you do it?
How many would you be willing to kill?
Over hong a period would you be willing to have this occur?
What type of people would you be willing to kill ?
How horribly would you be willing to have people killed?
Would the "perfect" society still be good, despite its basis?

This poll is simply based on numbers under whatever assumptions you make from the questions.


And no, I'm not a mass murderer. I'm an existential nihilist who, though effected by the Holocaust, is still quite aware of the far more devastating affects of overpopulation in the world... Though if I had the chance, I'm not sure I'd be willing to do it.
I live in a perfect world, so my answer is "none."

Saipea:Let's say you had the opportunity to reform and perfect the world we currently live in --- at a cost. You had to kill a certain number of people in order to accomplish the task. This spurs the many questions:

Would you do it? I dunno
How many would you be willing to kill? i dunno
Over hong a period would you be willing to have this occur? until no more children were harmed
What type of people would you be willing to kill ? rapists and child abuser/molesters
How horribly would you be willing to have people killed? torture
Would the "perfect" society still be good, despite its basis? i dunno

This poll is simply based on numbers under whatever assumptions you make from the questions.


And no, I'm not a mass murderer. I'm an existential nihilist who, though effected by the Holocaust, is still quite aware of the far more devastating affects of overpopulation in the world... Though if I had the chance, I'm not sure I'd be willing to do it.

Peechland:
I'm a child advocate and have zero tolerancy for the above mentioned crimes. So before you label me nuts....just keep that in mind.

Which isnt what the thread author was looking for probably....

The good of society does not override the rights of a single individual.

The good of society does not override the rights of a single individual.
Booya.

Would you do it?
Yes, I would

How many would you be willing to kill?
as many as it took

Over hong a period would you be willing to have this occur?
as long as it took

What type of people would you be willing to kill ?
pretty much anyone, including myself

How horribly would you be willing to have people killed?
take a wild guess, (I'm a little bit of a sadist if tha helps, minus the part of getting sexual pleasure from it)

Would the "perfect" society still be good, despite its basis?
no, it would be flawed, because nothing can be perfect

Would you do it?
Yes, I would

How many would you be willing to kill?
as many as it took

Over hong a period would you be willing to have this occur?
as long as it took

What type of people would you be willing to kill ?
pretty much anyone, including myself

How horribly would you be willing to have people killed?
take a wild guess, (I'm a little bit of a sadist if tha helps, minus the part of getting sexual pleasure from it)

Would the "perfect" society still be good, despite its basis?
no, it would be flawed, because nothing can be perfect
This is a dangerous (and scary) attitude.

Would you do it?
Yes, I would

How many would you be willing to kill?
as many as it took

Over hong a period would you be willing to have this occur?
as long as it took

What type of people would you be willing to kill ?
pretty much anyone, including myself

How horribly would you be willing to have people killed?
take a wild guess, (I'm a little bit of a sadist if tha helps, minus the part of getting sexual pleasure from it)



Would the "perfect" society still be good, despite its basis?
no, it would be flawed, because nothing can be perfect


:eek:

In a perfect world with no bad things, no one could appreciate its perfection. I say none because it would actually make the world worse.

Fun questions. Here I go:

!!!Fantasy Alert!!! -- !!!!Not to be construed as actual threats!!!



Would you do it?

Yes.


What type of people would you be willing to kill?

In order to make the world a better place, my political enemies would need to be exterminated. In general, this means conservatives. Not all conservatives, just the ones who are real trouble makers.

For example, my friend Mike may live, but I see no redeeming value in Sean Hannity's existence.


How many would you be willing to kill?

I am compiling a list. It would be alot.


Over hong a period would you be willing to have this occur?

The slower the better. This will instill fear in their hearts.

How horribly would you be willing to have people killed?

Not real horribly. Certain executions would just be strategic business while others would be more fun. This would not be a holocust -- more like the end of The Godfather on a larger scale. A "purge" if you will.


Would the "perfect" society still be good, despite its basis?

Interesting dilema: This society may end up "good," but it would never be "perfect" because of its violent origins.

The national motto would be:
Never let perfect be the enemy of good.


:sniper:

This is a dangerous (and scary) attitude.
I Know it is, but there are a select few people that I couldn't bring myself to kill, sad to say my mother is not on that list.

I live in a perfect world, so my answer is "none."

That's nice, the 50+% of the world that's starving due to their ignorance, stupidity, and overpopulation aren't living in a perfect world. The homeless people in your city aren't living in a perfect world. Your friend with 2 siblings who doesn't get enough attention from a father who drinks because there wasn't enough room or money for him to go to school doesn't live in a perfect world.
You are a sick individual who doesn't deserve or value his location and circumstance in existence.

I'm just saying that there is a whole stigma about killing, yet we kill numerous people everyday, whether by euthanasia, abortion, capital punishment, negligence, crime, wars, etc.
PLUS, we still have many to blame for the things that lead to these problems that cause the deaths of others.

The bottom line is, there are too many people in the world, and my fanatical nihilistic view on the whole thing is, since you're going to die anyways, why not die now in order for future generations to live better. You could have a plack if that makes you feel any better as your body is consumed by bacteria and your conscience bleeds into nothingness...

It's either that or enforcing a one child law.

Then again, it's all pointless as the omniverse will implode and it will be all for not...
Since you're going to die anyways, why not kill yourself now? this very moment? Go on... go ahead... I'll wait. No rush.... except of course the population stress... You're taking up valuable air!! Hurry up! We don't have unlimited resources!

That's the great thing about nihilists --if they really believe what they preach, there wouldn't be anymore of them!

That's nice, the 50+% of the world that's starving due to their ignorance, stupidity, and overpopulation aren't living in a perfect world. The homeless people in your city aren't living in a perfect world. Your friend with 2 siblings who doesn't get enough attention from a father who drinks because there wasn't enough room or money for him to go to school doesn't live in a perfect world.
You are a sick individual who doesn't deserve or value his location and circumstance in existence.
No, no, no... they're starving due to YOU! You're taking up all the air! and food! and water! and Internet time!

Peechland:
I'm a child advocate and have zero tolerancy for the above mentioned crimes. So before you label me nuts....just keep that in mind.

Which isnt what the thread author was looking for probably....
I liked your other answer, better. :-)

:eek:

No. I'm a humanist, i love mankind in spite of everything. I'm also a pacifist, i don't know if anything could make me abandon that belief system. I realize there is an over population problem, but the better solution to that is to educate people, especially those in third world countries about birth control, not kill people already here. Though if people volunteered to make the sacrifice, that would be different. I don't believe in perfection anyway, even hypothetically it's hard to imagine. I also think it would be boring.

I Know it is, but there are a select few people that I couldn't bring myself to kill, sad to say my mother is not on that list.

That is sad. I mean, you sound like me several years ago.

I could never bring myself to kill anyone directly, but if I had the ability to do it magically... I'd do it, killing anyone or everyone (even those I held dear), for the good of the future of the world (cause the first century of generations would be 'kind of' sad and depressed). Because I know that we all die anyways, and that death is just the same as never being born.
Death is not bad, and it certainly shouldn't scare anyone, religious or not.

Since you're going to die anyways, why not kill yourself now? this very moment? Go on... go ahead... I'll wait. No rush.... except of course the population stress... You're taking up valuable air!! Hurry up! We don't have unlimited resources!

That's the great thing about nihilists --if they really believe what they preach, there wouldn't be anymore of them!

I always look forward to these inane comments. Why not kill myself?

1. I'm smarter, wiser, and better than you, so you deserve to die more
2. The perfect world would never come into being, ergo being a hypothetical
3. I'm only a nihilist on my bad days
4. Why play a video game if you'll beat it anyways?
5. See 1, because that's an awefully good point. The world needs more intelligent people, not automatons and baby poppers.

In a perfect world with no bad things, no one could appreciate its perfection. I say none because it would actually make the world worse.
The great thing about perfection when it comes to "a world" is that we cannot define it.

Everything is as it should be.

I always look forward to these inane comments. Why not kill myself?

1. I'm smarter than you, and you deserve to die more
2. The perfect world would never come into being, ergo being a hypothetical
3. I'm only a nihilist on my bad days
4. Why play a video game if you'll beat it anyways?
5. See 1, because that's an awefully good point.
If you were truly smarter than her, you would have had fewer "e's" in awfully.

Now now children, lets not turn this into a flame fest.

The great thing about perfection when it comes to "a world" is that we cannot define it.

Everything is as it should be.
I think we can all agree this world is imperfect. I don't know what perfect is, but it isn't this.

For example, my friend Mike may live, but I see no redeeming value in Sean Hannity's existence.
On behalf of the Sean Hannity Existence Society, new formed and duely consecrated, I hereby declare Rule Number One: you shall not kill Sean.

No. I'm a humanist, i love mankind in spite of everything. I'm also a pacifist, i don't know if anything could make me abandon that belief system. I realize there is an over population problem, but the better solution to that is to educate people, especially those in third world countries about birth control, not kill people already here. Though if people volunteered to make the sacrifice, that would be different. I don't believe in perfection anyway, even hypothetically it's hard to imagine. I also think it would be boring.

Damn right. But how about equity? Giving people born into existence anywhere a fair shot at life? Clear the slate for this generation, noone wins this round, the next one we start again, with child limits so that we don't fuck up the availability of shelter, food, education, liberties, etc.

I liked your other answer, better. :-)

:eek:


crap...Ive gone and ruined youre angelic image of me havent I? ;)

Now now children, lets not turn this into a flame fest.

...or a spelling bee.

The point is that those quips are the most obnoxious and purile that rationalists have to put up with.

crap...Ive gone and ruined youre angelic image of me havent I? ;)

Not mine. Bad people would obviously be the first to die, although, that's not much different from as it is now. We also kill babies in the form of fetuses... and of course, I doubt there are many vegetarians posting.

That is sad. I mean, you sound like me several years ago.

I could never bring myself to kill anyone directly, but if I had the ability to do it magically... I'd do it, killing anyone or everyone (even those I held dear), for the good of the future of the world (cause the first century of generations would be 'kind of' sad and depressed). Because I know that we all die anyways, and that death is just the same as never being born.
Death is not bad, and it certainly shouldn't scare anyone, religious or not.

So wait... as long as you don't have to actually bloody your own hands, you'll kill people.

Ugh. Ughughughughugh.

Anyone who believes other people should die should be FORCED to do it up close and personally, with all the blood and gore that that requires. See how little you value human life after you have to end it and deal with that.

If you aren't willing to kill them yourself, you shouldn't be advocating their death at all.

So wait... as long as you don't have to actually bloody your own hands, you'll kill people.

Ugh. Ughughughughugh.

Anyone who believes other people should die should be FORCED to do it up close and personally, with all the blood and gore that that requires. See how little you value human life after you have to end it and deal with that.

If you aren't willing to kill them yourself, you shouldn't be advocating their death at all.
some people would like that

1. I'm smarter, wiser, and better than you, so you deserve to die more.

Is that sort of belief even possible if you're truly a nihilst? I always thought nihilism led almost inevitably to subjectivism in those respects. We certainly don't yet have any sort of objective test for intelligence, and such things as wisdom and "goodness" don't really figure into that worldview at all, do they?

Not mine. Bad people would obviously be the first to die, although, that's not much different from as it is now. We also kill babies in the form of fetuses... and of course, I doubt there are many vegetarians posting.

Huh. 'Bad people'. I'm sorry, I didn't realise what I was arguing with. Evidently I should just stop taking this seriously right this second before I have to throttle something.

No, no, no... they're starving due to YOU! You're taking up all the air! and food! and water! and Internet time!

Despite my (and every standardized and non-standardized test I've taken) high opinion of myself, I'm only going to have two children.The idiots in the south with 8+ children, let alone 3 or 4, are the ones that cause these problems.

I always look forward to these inane comments. Why not kill myself?

1. I'm smarter, wiser, and better than you, so you deserve to die more
2. The perfect world would never come into being, ergo being a hypothetical
3. I'm only a nihilist on my bad days
4. Why play a video game if you'll beat it anyways?
5. See 1, because that's an awefully good point. The world needs more intelligent people, not automatons and baby poppers.
No, dear...
1. You're smarter, wiser, and better than your own philosophy.
2. The perfect world is what exists; hence, what exists and is real overrides any hypothetical postulation.
3. Bahehe.
4. Video games are not real. Play the ones you can't beat! They're more fun!
5. The world needs less 'intelligent people' and more 'people who think'. I cite Jed Clampet as an example, and if anyone dares dispute me, I can just point them to various episodes. He was a wise man, dispite his circumstances.

Despite my (and every standardized and non-standardized test I've taken) high opinion of myself, I'm only going to have two children.The idiots in the south with 8+ children, let alone 3 or 4, are the ones that cause these problems.

Easy greasy.....I'm in the South. I just went through this with Jaystan :(

Is that sort of belief even possible if you're truly a nihilst? I always thought nihilism led almost inevitably to subjectivism in those respects. We certainly don't yet have any sort of objective test for intelligence, and such things as wisdom and "goodness" don't really figure into that worldview at all, do they?

I define "goodness" as usefulness. A serial killer who writes good poetry is better than most of his victims, just like Degas or Carroll are better than most children in the world, who really should have been aborted.

And I'm not a real nihilist; only on my bad days.

some people would like that

Yes. This is true. In fact, I'm one of them. But it still enrages me when people talk about how they're going to use death to 'fix' things while proving that they're selfish, insecure people. If they TRULY believed their cause was true, they wouldn't need to sever themselves from the killing. All it proves is that they KNOW the other people don't deserve to die, and don't want to deal with the ensuing cognitive dissonance. It's disgusting.

I think we can all agree this world is imperfect.
I'm sorry; I have to disagree.
I don't know what perfect is, but it isn't this.
Then you're not looking hard enough.

...or a spelling bee.

The point is that those quips are the most obnoxious and purile that rationalists have to put up with.
The quips make a valid argument. And to presume that you're smarter than someone you've never met is fairly facetious.

That is sad. I mean, you sound like me several years ago.

I could never bring myself to kill anyone directly, but if I had the ability to do it magically... I'd do it, killing anyone or everyone (even those I held dear), for the good of the future of the world (cause the first century of generations would be 'kind of' sad and depressed). Because I know that we all die anyways, and that death is just the same as never being born.
Death is not bad, and it certainly shouldn't scare anyone, religious or not.
We live in a harsh world, and people need to be sacraficed. I mean their are people willing to beat their own children, their are people willing to molest their own children.Their are also people willing to slit a dog's throat, and hang it from a tree. I feel these people should die. Society isn't helping either, it has become a fest for "I'm cooler than you, this is the latest trend, you need to be this way!" this attitude creates outcasts, and these people are shunned, because they can't afford to be with the latest, or they have thick glasses. So society needs a total revamp, how else can this be accomplished except through a mass murder?

And if your wondering I only fit one of these descriptions of people, and have witnessed the dog one.

On behalf of the Sean Hannity Existence Society, new formed and duely consecrated, I hereby declare Rule Number One: you shall not kill Sean.


If ever given the chance with no consequences, I would not hesitate to pull the trigger. There would have to be no consequences because I would need to tell everyone and everybody about it.

Sigh... Maybe one day... :rolleyes:

crap...Ive gone and ruined youre angelic image of me havent I? ;)
Yes!

No!

Both!
:fluffle:

I'm sorry; I have to disagree.

Then you're not looking hard enough.
Perfect is something that cannot be improved upon. There are many ways to improve the world.

5. The world needs less 'intelligent people' and more 'people who think'. I cite Jed Clampet as an example, and if anyone dares dispute me, I can just point them to various episodes. He was a wise man, dispite his circumstances.

And if you thought, you would admit that your question was as obnoxious as my responses, and... you would agree that there are too many poeople in the world and something has to give.

And I reiterate, the world is not perfect, as any person with empathy can plainly see.

If ever given the chance with no consequences, I would not hesitate to pull the trigger. There would have to be no consequences because I would need to tell everyone and everybody about it.

Sigh... Maybe one day... :rolleyes:

Ha, pull the trigger eh? Funny you should use a gun as the hypothetical weapon... the sort of weapon that severs the mental connection between your action and their death. Ditch the gun and imagine using a knife and getting up close and personal. If you couldn't do that, you shouldn't be killing the other person in the first place.

Ugh. Ughughughughugh.
Very eloquently put.

David Suzuki would be proud.

Very eloquently put.

David Suzuki would be proud.
Do not mock me, or I shall pelt you with pink My Little Ponies.

:p

We live in a harsh world, and people need to be sacraficed. I mean their are people willing to beat their own children, their are people willing to molest their own children.Their are also people willing to slit a dog's throat, and hang it from a tree. I feel these people should die. Society isn't helping either, it has become a fest for "I'm cooler than you, this is the latest trend, you need to be this way!" this attitude creates outcasts, and these people are shunned, because they can't afford to be with the latest, or they have thick glasses. So society needs a total revamp, how else can this be accomplished except through a mass murder?

And if your wondering I only fit one of these descriptions of people, and have witnessed the dog one.

You're motivation is being a social outcast? Weak.
Sound more like Columbine than altruistic motives.

Sorry your world sucks, but I hear Africa is a bit worse this time of year...

Ha, pull the trigger eh? Funny you should use a gun as the hypothetical weapon... the sort of weapon that severs the mental connection between your action and their death. Ditch the gun and imagine using a knife and getting up close and personal. If you couldn't do that, you shouldn't be killing the other person in the first place.
I would be willing to do it with a knife, as a matter of fact I dream of torturing a family to death that used me as a medium for further advancement in todays society. Fucking liers, What they did was just wrong, and I am still suffering for their lies.

You're motivation is being a social outcast? Weak.
Sound more like Columbine than altruistic motives.

Sorry your world sucks, but I hear Africa is a bit worse this time of year...
no, being beaten by my mother. I got along fine with the people in school, I have 20/20 vision, am tall, and according to others not bad looking.

I would be willing to do it with a knife, as a matter of fact I dream of torturing a family to death that used me as a medium for further advancement in todays society. Fucking liers, What they did was just wrong, and I am still suffering for their lies.


oh my.....

:(

Do I have to make the world perfect? Only I'd hate to live in a perfect world, but I really would like to be the cause of death of 75%.

I would be willing to do it with a knife, as a matter of fact I dream of torturing a family to death that used me as a medium for further advancement in todays society. Fucking liers, What they did was just wrong, and I am still suffering for their lies.

Hrm, revenge is a pretty poor motive. Killing them would make you just as bad as they are, if not worse. Not something you should want to aspire to.

Ha, pull the trigger eh? Funny you should use a gun as the hypothetical weapon... the sort of weapon that severs the mental connection between your action and their death. Ditch the gun and imagine using a knife and getting up close and personal. If you couldn't do that, you shouldn't be killing the other person in the first place.

Or a lethal injection needle. Or abortion tongs (or whatever the fuck people use). Or wearing a condom. Or dying of old age.

Death is the end that awaits us all, and while I love using knives yet am scared of blood and feel faint thinking of hurting a bad person, let alone a friend or loved one or myself, I realize that death is necessary, and in this stage of the earth's existence, a good many deaths at that.

Ha, pull the trigger eh? Funny you should use a gun as the hypothetical weapon... the sort of weapon that severs the mental connection between your action and their death. Ditch the gun and imagine using a knife and getting up close and personal. If you couldn't do that, you shouldn't be killing the other person in the first place.



OK. Now does this knife have to be sharp or should it be a dull butter knife? Or perhaps a rusty spoon?

Hand me something reasonable and I'd still do it. It's for a cause! ;)

I would be willing to do it with a knife, as a matter of fact I dream of torturing a family to death that used me as a medium for further advancement in todays society. Fucking liers, What they did was just wrong, and I am still suffering for their lies.
And yet you have internet access to complain about it. Sounds like you've got it real rough.

...or a spelling bee.

The point is that those quips are the most obnoxious and purile that rationalists have to put up with.
To continue the "spelling bee" theme - it is "puerile". Your amazing intelligence that qualifies you to exist above all others is, apparently, flawed.

We live in a harsh world, and people need to be sacraficed. I mean their are people willing to beat their own children, their are people willing to molest their own children.Their are also people willing to slit a dog's throat, and hang it from a tree.
And they all have something to learn.

You can be their teacher, or their executer. Which one seems more practical?

And yet you have internet access to complain about it. Sounds like you've got it real rough.
I don't like complaining about it. I was just throwing it out there. I never said I had it tough, I was saying that lots of people are scum, hell, for my views on this, I probably am scum too. I don't care.

If ever given the chance with no consequences, I would not hesitate to pull the trigger. There would have to be no consequences because I would need to tell everyone and everybody about it.
There are never no consequences. Everything, due to the phenomenon of time, has consequences.

Is Sean really that bad?

Or a lethal injection needle. Or abortion tongs (or whatever the fuck people use). Or wearing a condom. Or dying of old age.

I don't know whether to laugh or add you to my ignore list. Firstly, I'm against the death penalty because I don't think 'justice' should be confused with 'revenge'. Secondly, elective abortions occur usually before the infant even counts as an organism, let alone as a human. Wearing a condom kills no one, that's retarded. Dying of old age isn't, you know, death caused by another person.

Death is the end that awaits us all, and while I love using knives yet am scared of blood and feel faint thinking of hurting a bad person, let alone a friend or loved one or myself, I realize that death is necessary, and in this stage of the earth's existence, a good many deaths at that.

If you believe that, turn it on yourself and leave others to their delusion of a life worth living. If there are too many people for the Earth, the Earth will deal with it. Don't imagine for a second that you have any right to dictate who dies and who doesn't, just because you've identified the problem.

Perfect is something that cannot be improved upon. There are many ways to improve the world.
Like what? Or are you talking about the actions of individual humans?

Do not mock me, or I shall pelt you with pink My Little Ponies.

:p
:fluffle:

Let's make a pact not to give in to nihilists.

Yes. This is true. In fact, I'm one of them. But it still enrages me when people talk about how they're going to use death to 'fix' things while proving that they're selfish, insecure people. If they TRULY believed their cause was true, they wouldn't need to sever themselves from the killing. All it proves is that they KNOW the other people don't deserve to die, and don't want to deal with the ensuing cognitive dissonance. It's disgusting.

I'm both selfish (as is everyone, and if you deny this you are a fool) and insecure (I blame my upbringing), yet I believe the cause is true.

Noone deserves to die. Noone has the right to say that someone should die, even murderers or rapists. People don't choose their place in the world.

But everyone dies, and in 100 years all of the people killed would have died anyways...


...I'm glad to say I'm not as resolute or decided in my opinions as some of the other people who posted.

I have no right to judge, but man, some of you guys are nucking futs.

oh my.....

:(

But look Peechland!

no, being beaten by my mother. I got along fine with the people in school, I have 20/20 vision, am tall, and according to others not bad looking.

His mother beat him! Doesn't that mean you want to kill and torture her too?

Would you do it? I dunno
How many would you be willing to kill? i dunno
Over hong a period would you be willing to have this occur? until no more children were harmed
What type of people would you be willing to kill ? rapists and child abuser/molesters
How horribly would you be willing to have people killed? torture
Would the "perfect" society still be good, despite its basis? i dunno

Or are you only willing to kill them as long as they are a faceless mass, not individuals?

And they all have something to learn.

You can be their teacher, or their executer. Which one seems more practical?

An executer is certainly more economical, but as it stands, I plan on being an educator.

II have no right to judge, but man, some of you guys are nucking futs.
Thank you.
Hopefully I will get my ass shipped off to Iraq, and get shot. I think it sounds like fun.

[QUOTE=N American Alliance]If ever given the chance with no consequences, I would not hesitate to pull the trigger. There would have to be no consequences because I would need to tell everyone and everybody about it.QUOTE]
There are never no consequences. Everything, due to the phenomenon of time, has consequences.

Is Sean really that bad?


Yes. Yes, he is. And I knooooww there would be consequences in the general sense -- that's why I would kill him! What I meant was I would not going jail for it. He's not worth that.

Like what? Or are you talking about the actions of individual humans?
Many technological advancements. We're still bound by mortality and a lack on infinite power.

Doesn't that mean you want to kill and torture her too?

Yes, but she is dying a slower and more painfull death as we speak. She has cancer, it started as breast cancer then came back years later and now has spread to most of her body.

If you believe that, turn it on yourself and leave others to their delusion of a life worth living. If there are too many people for the Earth, the Earth will deal with it. Don't imagine for a second that you have any right to dictate who dies and who doesn't, just because you've identified the problem.

I don't know who doesn't, but I certainly know who does: Most of the world, including me --- and I'm pretty high on the chart already.

An executer is certainly more economical, but as it stands, I plan on being an educator.
Executer - no. Executioner - yes. Though you did quote the original mistake ...

Educator? *Shudder* I do not want you teaching my children. You might do something like the teacher that just shrugged when a child asked if stealing was wrong - didn't want to make a value judgement there.

Thank you.
Hopefully I will get my ass shipped off to Iraq, and get shot. I think it sounds like fun.

Unless you're just mocking my learning process.

I'm both selfish (as is everyone, and if you deny this you are a fool) and insecure (I blame my upbringing), yet I believe the cause is true.

Blame your upbringing all you like - you've just admited that you are, and that, instead of working to change it, you just play the blame game. As for being selfish, well, there are ways to keep it in check. Your attitude of 'eh, everyone does it, so why should I change' speaks volumes.

Noone deserves to die. Noone has the right to say that someone should die, even murderers or rapists. People don't choose their place in the world.

But everyone dies, and in 100 years all of the people killed would have died anyways...

So why do YOU get to decide they die? If they die anyway, you have no excuse whatsoever to feel justified in killing them now.


...I'm glad to say I'm not as resolute or decided in my opinions as some of the other people who posted.

I have no right to judge, but man, some of you guys are nucking futs.

Indeed. No right to judge, but you do anyway. How telling.

But look Peechland!



His mother beat him! Doesn't that mean you want to kill and torture her too?



Or are you only willing to kill them as long as they are a faceless mass, not individuals?

Shaed....I 've stated my stance on child abusers/rapists/molesters more than once on here and I'm sorry if you dont like my stance. But I think they should be given the same treatment as the child received. The two people from Florida who beat those 7 kids with a hammer, pulled their toenails out with a pair of pliers, starved them so badly that the two 14 year old twins weighed 36 lbs and 38 lbs.........I dont believe people who can torture an innocent child to that degree can be rehabilitated or deserve a 3-5 year hotel stay with free cable, meals and basketball courts at the local state prison. If that makes me disgusting to you.....so be it.

Yes, but she is dying a slower and more painfull death as we speak. She has cancer, it started as breast cancer then came back years later and now has spread to most of her body.

Oh no, that was directed at Peechland.

*gives a cookie to make up for the confusion*

Many technological advancements. We're still bound by mortality and a lack on infinite power.
And yet, it is mankind who uses technology, so it boils down to the actions of individual humans...

Executer - no. Executioner - yes. Though you did quote the original mistake ...

Educator? *Shudder* I do not want you teaching my children. You might do something like the teacher that just shrugged when a child asked if stealing was wrong - didn't want to make a value judgement there.

Was it a typo? I'm executing a change in policy and the flow of the world.

And I also expected the reaction to my profession of seeking that sort of profession.

I'd make a damn good teacher, and when it comes down to it, I'm probably more sensitive than you. Just because I talk the talk doesn't mean I'm willing to follow through, and I certainly don't condone stealing, unless it is conducive to the whole.

Oh no, that was directed at Peechland.

*gives a cookie to make up for the confusion*
OOH a cookie!

Shaed....I 've stated my stance on child abusers/rapists/molesters more than once on here and I'm sorry if you dont like my stance. But I think they should be given the same treatment as the child received. The two people from Florida who beat those 7 kids with a hammer, pulled their toenails out with a pair of pliers, starved them so badly that the two 14 year old twins weighed 36 lbs and 38 lbs.........I dont believe people who can torture an innocent child to that degree can be rehabilitated or deserve a 3-5 year hotel stay with free cable, meals and basketball courts at the local state prison. If that makes me disgusting to you.....so be it.

Awww Peech, I don't think you're disgusting at all. I also have rather extreme views on child-molesters (my personal solution would simply be to have them totally removed from my society. Exiled. As long as they never get the chance to do it again, I'd be satisfied).

But anyway, sorry you thought it was a direct attack on you :(
I just like prodding people's views in debates. It's very, VERY rare for it to turn into something personal.

Shaed....I 've stated my stance on child abusers/rapists/molesters more than once on here and I'm sorry if you dont like my stance. But I think they should be given the same treatment as the child received. The two people from Florida who beat those 7 kids with a hammer, pulled their toenails out with a pair of pliers, starved them so badly that the two 14 year old twins weighed 36 lbs and 38 lbs.........I dont believe people who can torture an innocent child to that degree can be rehabilitated or deserve a 3-5 year hotel stay with free cable, meals and basketball courts at the local state prison. If that makes me disgusting to you.....so be it.
What is gained, if the revenger acts exactly the same as the 'criminals' did? Who is the 'criminal' then?

I'd make a damn good teacher, and when it comes down to it, I'm probably more sensitive than you. Just because I talk the talk doesn't mean I'm willing to follow through, and I certainly don't condone stealing, unless it is conducive to the whole.

And let me guess... you're in a position to decide when it's 'conductive to the whole', 'mm?

Ahh you silly people with your black and white, egocentric views. So amusing and yet so utterly, utterly depressing.

What is gained, if the revenger acts exactly the same as the 'criminals' did? Who is the 'criminal' then?

*gives an uber-cookie for eloquence*

I have to quote that in future debates on this. My views condensed to one sentence.

And yet, it is mankind who uses technology, so it boils down to the actions of individual humans...
Thus making the world imperfect.

...you just play the blame game.Your attitude of 'eh, everyone does it, so why should I change' speaks volumes.

Indeed. No right to judge, but you do anyway. How telling.

(The above quote is only to show that prejudices are unavoidable)

(The following is a conclusion)

I only put my idea out there. I would never ever ever ever act upon it, and would be completely against it if I had the chance --- it's simply that some days the problems of the world are so overwhelming that you want o kill the faceless masses that you know are dumber than you, then off yourself for being such an egotistical and hypocritical asshole.

*gives an uber-cookie for eloquence*

I have to quote that in future debates on this. My views condensed to one sentence.

Why? That was a total cliche. And yes, I am jealous of your blind praise.

Ahh you silly people with your black and white, egocentric views. So amusing and yet so utterly, utterly depressing.
maybe I'm weird, but I come here to NationStates and find such things a relief from depression...

Why? That was a total cliche. And yes, I am jealous of your blind praise.

You get praise for starting a debate I can sink my teeth into that ISN'T about abortion or gay marriage.

*gives Saipea cake because she's run out of cookies*

And let me guess... you're in a position to decide when it's 'conductive to the whole', 'mm?

Ahh you silly people with your black and white, egocentric views. So amusing and yet so utterly, utterly depressing.

I'd rather you help me break out of them than simply throw insults at me. :(

And no, I'd listen to only the best and the brightest, the smartest and the wisest, which is neither you nor myself... Then again, morals are subjective, so we all lose.

Awww Peech, I don't think you're disgusting at all. I also have rather extreme views on child-molesters (my personal solution would simply be to have them totally removed from my society. Exiled. As long as they never get the chance to do it again, I'd be satisfied).

But anyway, sorry you thought it was a direct attack on you :(
I just like prodding people's views in debates. It's very, VERY rare for it to turn into something personal.

I'm sorry...I misunderstood. I'm really not a bad person although my opinions on this matter might make one think I've gone off the deep end. I have a 6 year old daughter and an 8 month old son and when I read a story like that.....it makes me think 'what if that happened to my children?" And I immediately go into a rage. Children are my weakness, my passion....and I feel they need to be protected and saved from these horrible acts. I cant fathom what causes an individual to inflict pain upon a helpless child. They cant defend themselves against an adult....so those who do these things are spineless cowards. An 11year old girl here in my town was raped and beaten so badly by her moms boyfriend....he CUT her genitalia with a knife and then sewed it back with fishing line, put her in a clothes dryer and turned it on. She was in the hospital for weeks and I cant imagine she will ever heal emotionally. Its stuff like that that makes me say what I say about how those people should be tortured endlessly.

I hope we are still :fluffle: friends.

You get praise for starting a debate I can sink my teeth into that ISN'T about abortion or gay marriage.

*gives Saipea cake because she's run out of cookies*

I don't like cake. Cake sucks. *makes a new thread*

No hard feelings?

SCARY STORY

Those people need to die. They are a waste of food, air, space, time, and effort. Just stick the needle in and say, "Better luck on your next incarnation!"

And yes, I'd willingly kill those people, though I'd be scared to look at them because I might catch whatever 'fantastical' problem they have.

Thus making the world imperfect.
See, this is where you're wrong. The person who acts in revenge has a choice whether to act *like* the criminal or not.

If they choose to do so, it propagates the bad energy, the bad 'karma', or the bad feelings. But this may lead to more good.

I am totally undecided on the 'wrongness' of predestination/fate. Things that seem horrible at first glance can turn out to have such a bright side. Is this coincidence? Is there such a thing as coincidence? I don't know.

I am an astrologer who never consults the stars.

I am a "believer in god" who never consults the god.

I'm not sure I want to know.

I don't like cake. Cake sucks. *makes a new thread*

No hard feelings?

No hard feelings at all. Let me see what else I have *rummages*
Chocolate? Hard candy? Caramel? Something which appears to be gingerbread of some sort?

maybe I'm weird, but I come here to NationStates and find such things a relief from depression...

That's weird. You want relief from depression? Live, stop thinking. Thinking leads to more depression... or... if you're lucky like me... burnout. Then you're at the end of a tunnel over looking a pit, seeing that everything everyone's said before about life is true, and then you really do go off and live it to the fullest. And you take medicine, if you have chronic depression (like me).

No hard feelings at all. Let me see what else I have *rummages*
Chocolate? Hard candy? Caramel? Something which appears to be gingerbread of some sort?

Gingerbread! Gingerbread! ::bounce::

I don't like cake. Cake sucks. *makes a new thread*

No hard feelings?
Well I don't like cookies, but I was nice and accepted it

See, this is where you're wrong. The person who acts in revenge has a choice whether to act *like* the criminal or not.

If they choose to do so, it propagates the bad energy, the bad 'karma', or the bad feelings. But this may lead to more good.

I am totally undecided on the 'wrongness' of predestination/fate. Things that seem horrible at first glance can turn out to have such a bright side. Is this coincidence? Is there such a thing as coincidence? I don't know.

I am an astrologer who never consults the stars.

I am a "believer in god" who never consults the god.

I'm not sure I want to know.
I don't think you meant to quote me, but if you did...um...I disagree.

What is gained, if the revenger acts exactly the same as the 'criminals' did? Who is the 'criminal' then?


I think I see it more as an eye for an eye thing in regards to children. If I was raped, I wouldnt run out and search the world over for my attacker just so I could take a drill to his lower region and then set fire to him. I'd recover and move on and probably be ok. I'm an adult and I have the capacity to deal with something like that. A child, say 6 years old, doesnt even know what sex is. They look to adults for protection, comfort, someone to trust. When something so unspeakable happens, like rape, I cant even imagine what the child must be thinking. Not to mention that they are not physically developed enough to even handle the act itself. How can they recover from that? They might. But they shouldnt have to. No child should have to suffer. Whether its from cancer, starvation, or abuse. I therefore believe that an adult who hurts a defensless child, should be held to a higher degree of punishment. Its not revenge....its the punishment fitting the crime.

I'm sorry...I misunderstood. I'm really not a bad person although my opinions on this matter might make one think I've gone off the deep end. I have a 6 year old daughter and an 8 month old son and when I read a story like that.....it makes me think 'what if that happened to my children?" And I immediately go into a rage. Children are my weakness, my passion....and I feel they need to be protected and saved from these horrible acts. I cant fathom what causes an individual to inflict pain upon a helpless child. They cant defend themselves against an adult....so those who do these things are spineless cowards. An 11year old girl here in my town was raped and beaten so badly by her moms boyfriend....he CUT her genitalia with a knife and then sewed it back with fishing line, put her in a clothes dryer and turned it on. She was in the hospital for weeks and I cant imagine she will ever heal emotionally. Its stuff like that that makes me say what I say about how those people should be tortured endlessly.

I hope we are still :fluffle: friends.

'Course we are! :fluffle:

And if it helps, I feel exactly the same way when I hear about sociopaths who kill people's pets, or people who drown kittens. If I ever have children, I'm sure I'd feel exactly the same way. Hell, I'm sure most mothers would.

I just tend to jump at the chance to point out that hurting other people because they've hurt someone else tends to leave you walking a very fine line. What if you hurt someone who was actually innocent? Wouldn't that make you exactly as bad as the people you're trying to punish?

That's why my method involves just simply ostracising them, and keeping the torture and hatred in my head where it can't undermine my position.

Once it was discovered that all those people were killed for X ideal, I imagine there would be a backlash against that ideal. Unless you had some complete control over the world, the people would be replaced eventually. The world's problems are structural, cultural, natural, economic, etc. Not merely individual. And, if you did have god-like control, though, there'd be better ways to solve the world's problems than mass murder.

And internet misanthropy is cheap and dull.

I don't think you meant to quote me, but if you did...um...I disagree.
I quote you universally!

You're like, the universal quoter person!

You should be honoured!

I quote you universally!

You're like, the universal quoter person!

You should be honoured!
Honored I am. That's right, no u for you. Honored and bloody confused.

Once it was discovered that all those people were killed for X ideal, I imagine there would be a backlash against that ideal. Unless you had some complete control over the world, the people would be replaced eventually. The world's problems are structural, cultural, natural, economic, etc. Not merely individual. And, if you did have god-like control, though, there'd be better ways to solve the world's problems than mass murder.

And internet misanthropy is cheap and dull.

Helluva first post. You get a gold star.

(no, not sarcasm. Some of us like encouraging intelligent debaters, is all)

'Course we are! :fluffle:

And if it helps, I feel exactly the same way when I hear about sociopaths who kill people's pets, or people who drown kittens. If I ever have children, I'm sure I'd feel exactly the same way. Hell, I'm sure most mothers would.

I just tend to jump at the chance to point out that hurting other people because they've hurt someone else tends to leave you walking a very fine line. What if you hurt someone who was actually innocent? Wouldn't that make you exactly as bad as the people you're trying to punish?

That's why my method involves just simply ostracising them, and keeping the torture and hatred in my head where it can't undermine my position.


I might be up for collecting said offenders and putting them in a big room together and making them listen to Sam Kinnisons voice on a loud speaker 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Thats torture surely.

I prefer physical torture, But if you wanna do that more power to you

I prefer physical torture, But if you wanna do that more power to you


well, you read my previous posts. You can see thats my first choice.

well, you read my previous posts. You can see thats my first choice.
as you should be able to tell that this is my first choice.

I think I see it more as an eye for an eye thing in regards to children. If I was raped, I wouldnt run out and search the world over for my attacker just so I could take a drill to his lower region and then set fire to him. I'd recover and move on and probably be ok. I'm an adult and I have the capacity to deal with something like that. A child, say 6 years old, doesnt even know what sex is. They look to adults for protection, comfort, someone to trust. When something so unspeakable happens, like rape, I cant even imagine what the child must be thinking. Not to mention that they are not physically developed enough to even handle the act itself. How can they recover from that? They might. But they shouldnt have to. No child should have to suffer. Whether its from cancer, starvation, or abuse. I therefore believe that an adult who hurts a defensless child, should be held to a higher degree of punishment. Its not revenge....its the punishment fitting the crime.
Recovery is specific to the individual.

I agree; there should be no one harming others, but there is absolutely no way to prevent it. Even laws enacted are not intended to prevent it. There is wrong enacted in this world, and there are people who 'bleed' because of it.

This is not an imperfect world. I have a few friends who would be shocked to hear me say such a thing, but it is a personal belief I have never voiced to them. Even the worst of acts has some sort of "silver lining". People's spirits are strengthened by adversity; people's ideals are strengthened by conflict; people's bodies are strengthened by pain.

So who's worst? The nihilist or the masochist?

So who's worst? The nihilist or the masochist?

The sadist who stabs you all and then runs away to play with kittens and MLPs, obviously

>.>
<.<

The sadist who stabs you all and then runs away to play with kittens and MLPs, obviously

>.>
<.<
I resent that, I'd finish the job off before I played with the kittens.

Recovery is specific to the individual.

I agree; there should be no one harming others, but there is absolutely no way to prevent it. Even laws enacted are not intended to prevent it. There is wrong enacted in this world, and there are people who 'bleed' because of it.

This is not an imperfect world. I have a few friends who would be shocked to hear me say such a thing, but it is a personal belief I have never voiced to them. Even the worst of acts has some sort of "silver lining". People's spirits are strengthened by adversity; people's ideals are strengthened by conflict; people's bodies are strengthened by pain.

So who's worst? The nihilist or the masochist?


I think you and I did this on a previous thread. I agree....I am stronger today for my previous adversities. I went to the school of "Hard Knocks". So yes it can make one stronger. Or it can make one commit suicide. I do not believe that a child can benefit in any way if they are sexually abused. Growing up poor might make them appreciate the value of a dollar, getting beaten up on the playground by another kid for smart mouthing might make them think before they speak....but I see no lesson to be learned or spirit strengthened when a 6 year old is raped by a 40 year old. Call me crazy, but I just dont.

The sadist who stabs you all and then runs away to play with kittens and MLPs, obviously

>.>
<.<
Oh, Brad... and me working for the government.

Save the Kittens!

I think you and I did this on a previous thread. I agree....I am stronger today for my previous adversities. I went to the school of "Hard Knocks". So yes it can make one stronger. Or it can make one commit suicide. I do not believe that a child can benefit in any way if they are sexually abused. Growing up poor might make them appreciate the value of a dollar, getting beaten up on the playground by another kid for smart mouthing might make them think before they speak....but I see no lesson to be learned or spirit strengthened when a 6 year old is raped by a 40 year old. Call me crazy, but I just dont.
I think I did this before, but I'll do it again.. the "lesson" of child molestation could be for the child, or for the molester to learn. Such lessons are for a consciousness to learn, and people only fully gain consciousness when they 'grow up' (which might be at varying ages, from 6 to 26). There is no set rule that can be used in all instances, to say that someone (a consciousness) benefits. The trick is for the objective observer to recognize the pattern and acknowledge it..

That's the astrologer in me, so I'll quit now.

I think I did this before, but I'll do it again.. the "lesson" of child molestation could be for the child, or for the molester to learn. Such lessons are for a consciousness to learn, and people only fully gain consciousness when they 'grow up' (which might be at varying ages, from 6 to 26). There is no set rule that can be used in all instances, to say that someone (a consciousness) benefits. The trick is for the objective observer to recognize the pattern and acknowledge it..

That's the astrologer in me, so I'll quit now.

Yeah....I guess I'm just not willing to let a child be used as a teaching tool...especially if the lessons involve sexual abuse. I still love you Willamena.

I've said this elsewhere but: I don't think we live in the "best of all possible worlds," and I think that that sort of thinking can be dangerous since it justifies things that are clearly unjust. If everybody gets what they deserve, there's no reason to right any wrongs.

I don't think that there is an afterlife to balance out evil deeds, nor do I think good requires evil and, as far as "that which does not kill me only makes me stronger," well, there are plenty of people who have been crippled, traumatized, or in fact killed.

Anyway, to try to bring it back to the thread, I think there are problems in the world but killing people isn't terribly useful. If anything, killing millions or billions of people (even handpicked) would throw the world into chaos.

I think I did this before, but I'll do it again.. the "lesson" of child molestation could be for the child, or for the molester to learn. Such lessons are for a consciousness to learn, and people only fully gain consciousness when they 'grow up' (which might be at varying ages, from 6 to 26). There is no set rule that can be used in all instances, to say that someone (a consciousness) benefits. The trick is for the objective observer to recognize the pattern and acknowledge it..

That's the astrologer in me, so I'll quit now.
And yet full grown adults who were molested when they were little still break down when talking about it. I'm sorry but there is no lesson for the child to learn there. I mean I have a hard time talking about my experiences with my mom to someones face, You can ask my two closest friends, when I told them I broke down crying, and I'm a 17 year old male. Molestation is totally different.

Yep, I'd do it.

I'd be willing to kill the total population of the world - 1.

As long as it takes, though if I did it right, maybe 45 seconds + time for the radiation to take its course.

Everyone who tries to force their values upon me.

Think Neutron bomb, death from radiation sickness, very painful, takes a few days.

Would it be good, yes. Would it be perfect, no, I'm not perfect.

Yeah....I guess I'm just not willing to let a child be used as a teaching tool...especially if the lessons involve sexual abuse. I still love you Willamena.
"Teaching tool", that's an important concept. I recognize that it's a difficult concept, one that sucks immensely. Yet, if someone can benefit in the grand scheme --say, their consciousness is elevated from one that doesn't realise the harm they do to one that not only realises the harm but makes amends for it --isn't that worth something? anything? and if the victim her- or himself can acknowledge this, why can't others?

I've said this elsewhere but: I don't think we live in the "best of all possible worlds," and I think that that sort of thinking can be dangerous since it justifies things that are clearly unjust. If everybody gets what they deserve, there's no reason to right any wrongs.
So the "best of all possible worlds" is one in which "everyone gets what they deserve"? Who, then, decides what they deserve? God isn't going to decide. Granted the jury system at least leaves it to 12 individuals to decide --a modest sampling --but even that can be corrupted (thank you, Tom Hanks!).

I don't think that there is an afterlife to balance out evil deeds, nor do I think good requires evil and, as far as "that which does not kill me only makes me stronger," well, there are plenty of people who have been crippled, traumatized, or in fact killed.

Anyway, to try to bring it back to the thread, I think there are problems in the world but killing people isn't terribly useful. If anything, killing millions or billions of people (even handpicked) would throw the world into chaos.
I agree; killing people indiscriminately is not a solution. And killing people discriminately is not a solution. How about a lottery?

"Teaching tool", that's an important concept. I recognize that it's a difficult concept, one that sucks immensely. Yet, if someone can benefit in the grand scheme --say, their consciousness is elevated from one that doesn't realise the harm they do to one that not only realises the harm but makes amends for it --isn't that worth something? anything? and if the victim her- or himself can acknowledge this, why can't others?

It's easy to find some small abstract teaching value in any atrocity, any event. The question is, though, whether or not that value is worth the price paid. I think the answer is no and there's a terrible imbalance here...

Also, aren't there other, better ways this "lesson" could be taught? And, in a perfect world, wouldn't it be something that would just already know?

So the "best of all possible worlds" is one in which "everyone gets what they deserve"? Who, then, decides what they deserve? God isn't going to decide. Granted the jury system at least leaves it to 12 individuals to decide --a modest sampling --but even that can be corrupted (thank you, Tom Hanks!).


I agree; killing people indiscriminately is not a solution. And killing people discriminately is not a solution. How about a lottery?

There's no God or grand jury that could decide what everyone deserves.

But recognizing an injustice and correcting it are two very different things.

And yet full grown adults who were molested when they were little still break down when talking about it. I'm sorry but there is no lesson for the child to learn there. I mean I have a hard time talking about my experiences with my mom to someones face, You can ask my two closest friends, when I told them I broke down crying, and I'm a 17 year old male. Molestation is totally different.
I'm not making this personal --I refuse to make this personal. My comments are not about you. I'd like to think that you acknowledge that. If you do, then would you also acknowlege that you do not speak for all the victims out there. If you were molested, then, while you are not required to acknowledge that you learned any lesson, you cannot discount that the rapist learned a lesson, and you cannot discount that you might yet learn a lesson from it.

I don't give up easily. Neither should you.

It's easy to find some small abstract teaching value in any atrocity, any event. The question is, though, whether or not that value is worth the price paid. I think the answer is no and there's a terrible imbalance here...
I can understand that, I really can. But this is the very essence of forgivance.

Also, aren't there other, better ways this "lesson" could be taught? And, in a perfect world, wouldn't it be something that would just already know?
What possible ways would be better than reality?

There's no God or grand jury that could decide what everyone deserves.

But recognizing an injustice and correcting it are two very different things.
Yes! That's called repentance.

I'm not making this personal --I refuse to make this personal. My comments are not about you. I'd like to think that you acknowledge that If you do, then would you also acknowlege that you do not speak for all the victims out there. If you were molested, then, while you are not required to acknowledge that you learned any lesson, you cannot discount that the rapist learned a lesson, and you cannot discount that you might yet learn a lesson from it.

I don't give up easily.
Your right I don't speak for everyone, some people can handle it, but that is a severe minority. I just recently went through a support group, and it invovled teaching the horrors of abuse like that. Since I was young they decided it was imperative that they engraved this into my mind, because a majority of abusers were abused as children. The statistics show like 98% of those who were abused as children can't handle it. I have trouble even talking about abuse to another person. I get all tight and nervous, my voice changes a little, and my eyes start to water. Even though I succesfully put up a tough guy front when talking about anything else, mainly because after my mom beat me I shut out all emotions for everything.

How about a lottery?

Been there, read that. The story demonstrates why it's far worse to be random than prejudicial in killing.

I can understand that, I really can. But this is the very essence of forgivance.


What possible ways would be better than reality?

Let's say that I want a banana dangling from the ceiling, several feet beyond my reach. Instead of hoping that the banana will eventually fall, I can stack things, get on top of them, and reach the banana. In this scenario I have imagined and created a better reality, one in which I get the banana I need.

And, in a better if not perfect world, someone would have intercepted the abuser before they abused someone and taught them a lesson using therapy or some other means. Or that abusive tendency wouldn't exist. I can't think of any reason why these options are impossible, in a perfect world.

Also, if there's no way to be better than the reality we have, then how are these lessons useful at all? Why should the world change if it's already perfect? Shouldn't it just enjoy a perfect stasis?

Your right I don't speak for everyone, some people can handle it, but that is a severe minority. I just recently went through a support group, and it invovled teaching the horrors of abuse like that. Since I was young they decided it was imperative that they engraved this into my mind, because a majority of abusers were abused as children. The statistics show like 98% of those who were abused as children can't handle it. I have trouble even talking about abuse to another person. I get all tight and nervous, my voice changes a little, and my eyes start to water. Even though I succesfully put up a tough guy front when talking about anything else, mainly because after my mom beat me I shut out all emotions for everything.
The "lesson" I spoke of is not necessarily about the victim "handling it." It is about whose mentality is altered by the experience, who benefits by it. That could be the victim, the assailant, or an "objective" observer, or an observer 2000 years removed from the incident.

The "lesson" I spoke of is not necessarily about the victim "handling it." It is about whose mentality is altered by the experience, who benefits by it. That could be the victim, the assailant, or an "objective" observer, or an observer 2000 years removed from the incident.
and the abuser benefits, by filling their own needs, and the victim (more than likely) takes the end of the brunt, and lives most of the rest of their life in fear.

Let's say that I want a banana dangling from the ceiling, several feet beyond my reach. Instead of hoping that the banana will eventually fall, I can stack things, get on top of them, and reach the banana. In this scenario I have imagined and created a better reality, one in which I get the banana I need.
I saw that, on a Planet of the Apes movie, when they had returned to Earth!

You have manipulated reality in this perfect world. Go you!

And, in a better if not perfect world, someone would have intercepted the abuser before they abused someone and taught them a lesson using therapy or some other means. Or that abusive tendency wouldn't exist. I can't think of any reason why these options are impossible, in a perfect world.
Okay, so you would propose that in the perfect world all people would have precognition? Then the abuser would also know that people were going to intercept him. Or do you propose that in the perfect world only the "nice" people would have have precognition?

Also, if there's no way to be better than the reality we have, then how are these lessons useful at all? Why should the world change if it's already perfect? Shouldn't it just enjoy a perfect stasis?
Um, the lessons are useful if they alter someone's thinking from something 'bad' or 'neutral' to something more along the lines of 'good'? *happy happy joy joy*

Ah! What if changing is what makes perfect world? Otherwise, whose standards determine what is perfect?

I said no more than 5% becuase if you get rid of the worst people, the ones who are really to blame for our wolrd's poor current condition , then it would be a lot harder for people with their values system to arise. The country with most killed (by proportion and possibly total) would be America. And nobondy call me an indignant jerk from Europe (I live in the US). We are the most inefficient, lazy, wasteful, and stubborn nation in the world. The world's richest would go first and their vast amounts of capital would be used to help the people worst off.

and the abuser benefits, by filling their own needs, and the victim (more than likely) takes the end of the brunt, and lives most of the rest of their life in fear.
So 'fulfilling needs' is a successful outcome?

There is something to be learned there, too.

I said no more than 5% becuase if you get rid of the worst people, the ones who are really to blame for our wolrd's poor current condition , then it would be a lot harder for people with their values system to arise. The country with most killed (by proportion and possibly total) would be America. And nobondy call me an indignant jerk from Europe (I live in the US). We are the most inefficient, lazy, wasteful, and stubborn nation in the world. The world's richest would go first and their vast amounts of capital would be used to help the people worst off.
What if we're all to blame? Not just the Americans, mind, but every living person who is conscious?

I am incapable of envisioning a perfect world that I would be able to live in. My "perfect" world would be inherently imperfect. I find joy in the persuit and reward, things that cannot be had in a perfect world. For there to be reward, there must also be punishment. For persuit there must be missery and pain.

That being said, createing my "refined" world would involve killing of about 75% of the population in one way or another. You see, my refined world would be one of small communites struggleing to survive. People are at their best when the chances of their survival are at their worst.

A species with lowered survival opertunities will adapt and evolve, resulting in a stronger species as a whole that is more prepared to survive in the long run. In a society that assures survival, a species will stagnate or even regress, which means if something caticlismic happens, as is statisticly inevitable on a long enough timeline, the species may very well become extict, especialy if the main skilles learned are those of takeing what other create. On the other hand a species that must constantly adapt and work together for it's very survival will have a better chance of surviveing as a species, and caticlysmic events will be less of a shock.

Perfection is in itself a weakness because chaos will always exist, and even the perfect system can be corrupted.

So 'fulfilling needs' is a successful outcome?

There is something to be learned there, too.
yes it is, but at what cost did they do to fulfill this need? They totally ruined someones life. If it weren't children, I wouldn't have such a big buff with it, but I don't really want people to have to face the fear of being abused for their entire life. I wasn't beaten until I was older, and the short amount of time I have had, and the mass of people who I have met tell me that no lesson is learned fo the victim, and the only lesson learned learned for the abuser is that "this feels good, and it's easy, I can do this more" which only compounds the problem.

I am incapable of envisioning a perfect world that I would be able to live in. My "perfect" world would be inherently imperfect. I find joy in the persuit and reward, things that cannot be had in a perfect world. For there to be reward, there must also be punishment. For persuit there must be missery and pain.
Well done!!! :fluffle:

Oh, well, there's the rest of what you said, too..

yes it is, but at what cost did they do to fulfill this need? They totally ruined someones life. If it weren't children, I wouldn't have such a big buff with it, but I don't really want people to have to face the fear of being abused for their entire life. I wasn't beaten until I was older, and the short amount of time I have had, and the mass of people who I have met tell me that no lesson is learned fo the victim, and the only lesson learned learned for the abuser is that "this feels good, and it's easy, I can do this more" which only compounds the problem.
No, it's not about fulfilling needs. The fulfillment of immediate needs is rarely an end result --more often a means to an end.

Thank you for the compliment.

No, it's not about fulfilling needs. The fulfillment of immediate needs is rarely an end result --more often a means to an end.
and you lost me

I


Okay, so you would propose that in the perfect world all people would have precognition? Then the abuser would also know that people were going to intercept him. Or do you propose that in the perfect world only the "nice" people would have have precognition?



That's not what I said.

I think it takes a lot of faith to assume that somehow, some way, everything is turning out for the best. There's no evidence that it is and anyone can point to something and imagine a situation in which it could be better.

That being said, createing my "refined" world would involve killing of about 75% of the population in one way or another. You see, my refined world would be one of small communites struggleing to survive. People are at their best when the chances of their survival are at their worst.

A species with lowered survival opertunities will adapt and evolve, resulting in a stronger species as a whole that is more prepared to survive in the long run. In a society that assures survival, a species will stagnate or even regress, which means if something caticlismic happens, as is statisticly inevitable on a long enough timeline, the species may very well become extict, especialy if the main skilles learned are those of takeing what other create. On the other hand a species that must constantly adapt and work together for it's very survival will have a better chance of surviveing as a species, and caticlysmic events will be less of a shock.

Perfection is in itself a weakness because chaos will always exist, and even the perfect system can be corrupted.

Social Darwinism is long out of fashion. I don't think you'll find very many among actual evolutionary scientists.

People are at their best when their chances of survival are at their worst? I don't think this is the case... People can be pretty despicable when they are desperate.

As far as survival goes... Well, we're living longer on average than ever, so our chances of survival are pretty high and our population is higher than it's ever been so we are at our most successful from an evolutionary standpoint. So, nope. We might have our problems but we're still a great weed species.

No, it's not about fulfilling needs. The fulfillment of immediate needs is rarely an end result --more often a means to an end
and you lost me
Well, is any fulfillment of need ever the end of a story? Does the story end when D’Artagnan becomes a Musketeer? Is the story over when Luke Skywalker rescues the Princess? I think not.

That's not what I said.

I think it takes a lot of faith to assume that somehow, some way, everything is turning out for the best. There's no evidence that it is and anyone can point to something and imagine a situation in which it could be better.
Is is the method to achieve what you proposed: "in a better if not perfect world, someone would have intercepted the abuser before they abused someone and taught them a lesson using therapy or some other means."

This could only be achieved if there was foreknowledge of the abuser's intent.

It does take faith to assume that everything is turning out for the best, and I have that faith.

Well, is any fulfillment of need ever the end of a story? Does the story end when D’Artagnan becomes a Musketeer? Is the story over when Luke Skywalker rescues the Princess? I think not.
thats my point, he'll get it into his head that he can continue doing what he was doing, and he will scar more people.

Is is the method to achieve what you proposed: "in a better if not perfect world, someone would have intercepted the abuser before they abused someone and taught them a lesson using therapy or some other means."

This could only be achieved if there was foreknowledge of the abuser's intent.

It does take faith to assume that everything is turning out for the best, and I have that faith.

Precognition isn't the only way a society could conceivably find and treat its abusers before they act.

Anyway, I don't think this optimistic philosophy is terribly useful. It seems directed less at solving any of the world's problems and more at shoring up a particular belief system.

But I'm going to bed...

...live the rest of their life in fear...

...face the fear of being abused for their entire life...
thats my point, he'll get it into his head that he can continue doing what he was doing, and he will scar more people.
And my point was that those --the emotional states of either the victim or the abuser --are not end results, just bumps along the road.

I wasn't beaten until I was older, and the short amount of time I have had, and the mass of people who I have met tell me that no lesson is learned fo the victim, and the only lesson learned learned for the abuser is that "this feels good, and it's easy, I can do this more" which only compounds the problem.
The lesson for the victim isn't being beaten (I've had to make this point before, and it never fails to surprise me that that's what people would conclude from a victim having "a lesson".) You said it yourself: facing the fear.

Let's say you had the opportunity to reform and perfect the world we currently live in --- at a cost. You had to kill a certain number of people in order to accomplish the task. This spurs the many questions:

Would you do it?
How many would you be willing to kill?
Over hong a period would you be willing to have this occur?
What type of people would you be willing to kill ?
How horribly would you be willing to have people killed?
Would the "perfect" society still be good, despite its basis?

This poll is simply based on numbers under whatever assumptions you make from the questions.


And no, I'm not a mass murderer. I'm an existential nihilist who, though effected by the Holocaust, is still quite aware of the far more devastating affects of overpopulation in the world... Though if I had the chance, I'm not sure I'd be willing to do it.

I'm a pragmatic realist, I'm afraid.

And that means, if I could make a sustainable Utopia for the few, I would certainly be willing to sacrifice the many.

I voted for 75%. Partially because of all the suffering in third (and first for that matter) world countries around the world, partially because I dislike fundamentalist religious-types, and partially because my immense Id says that I must become the alpha-male of the pack (that means I'd have to kill a lot of people to become the first pick :p ), and partially because I dislike globalization (but only subconsciously, I really like the internet while I'm awake.)

I can understand that, I really can. But this is the very essence of forgivance.


Forgiveness is over-rated.

So wait... as long as you don't have to actually bloody your own hands, you'll kill people.

Ugh. Ughughughughugh.

Anyone who believes other people should die should be FORCED to do it up close and personally, with all the blood and gore that that requires. See how little you value human life after you have to end it and deal with that.

If you aren't willing to kill them yourself, you shouldn't be advocating their death at all.

In respect of those we are loosely terming 'bad people' here... by which (scanning the thread) we seem to be meaning those elements of society that kill and harm children, rapists, murderers, etc... i.e. persons harmful to community, and not (in my opinion) worth the 'cost' (in terms of their evil) to justify their existence (in terms of their positive societal effects):

In the case of those loosely defined by THAT version of 'bad people', I would gain no pleasure from the acts - but would be absolutely prepared to terminate, personally, every single one of those people.

In the cases of most, I would be willing to provide a quick, surgically precise, and sterile end.

Would you do it?
How many would you be willing to kill?
Over hong a period would you be willing to have this occur?
What type of people would you be willing to kill ?
How horribly would you be willing to have people killed?
Would the "perfect" society still be good, despite its basis?


Yes.
No more than necessary.
I think 7 or 8 generations should do it.
Murderers, rapists, most criminals in general, those who couldn't or refuse to contribute to society(not including children), religous fanatics. There are more just cannot think of them.
Death would be quick and painless.
It is impossable to be perfect, although it would be an improvement.