NationStates Jolt Archive


Why do conservatives support the Bush foreign policy: an interesting article

Swimmingpool
15-02-2005, 22:32
James Pinkerton writes an interesting analysis of the cost of the Bush-Blair globalist vision.

I recommend reading the original article here (http://www.techcentralstation.com/020205A.html) because it contains interesting links within the text. But if you can't wait, I'll quote it all for you.

'W' is for Wilson?

George W. Bush and Tony Blair are out to change the world. If they have their way, the future will be more democratic but also more big-spending statist -- including, inevitably, here in the US.

The President has announced that his ultimate goal is "ending tyranny" around the world. But the Prime Minister, reflecting his own leftist views, insists that the world's peoples can't be truly free unless they also enjoy material minimums. So the emerging division of labor between the two leaders becomes clear: Bush will be in charge of the tough talk and the tough action -- nailing not only Saddam Hussein, but also, hopefully, other nogoodniks, including Osama Bin Laden and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. And for his part, Blair will back up Bush on foreign policy, even as he, Blair, prods Bush to spend more and regulate more -- a lot more. Blair hopes that this Anglo-American alliance will end to poverty in Africa, as well as global warming. But it's more likely that political effects aside, this joint crusade for "planet change" prove to be an economically disastrous global boondoggle.

But for now, the ambitious Bush-Blair vision received a big boost from the Iraqi election turnout on Sunday. Both leaders went on worldwide TV to praise the voting millions.

Of course, a few worrywarts, such as Newsweek's Fareed Zakaria, noted that "elections are not democracy", in that mere majoritarianism doesn't guarantee, for example, property rights and the rule of law. But most Americans are too busy cheering the news to worry about the un-democratic "democracies" that Zakaria cited in his piece, such as Russia and Nigeria.

Much more typical, in his blissfully ahistorical enthusiasm, was Mike Bayham, whose opinion piece for GOPUSA.com was entitled "Iraq's Great Leap Forward." Nobody seems to have told either Bayham or the website's headline writer that the original Great Leap Forward was one of the worst man-made calamities of all time. Or maybe Bayham & Co. don't care about the past and its lessons; as one Bush intimate told The New York Times, "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality."

Besides, plenty of others have joined in the Bush-cheering, from some surprising quarters. The Washington Post, which endorsed John Kerry, trilled these notes of editorial affection for Iraq's voters and the policy behind them: "Their votes were an act of courage and faith -- and an answer to the question of whether the mission in Iraq remains a just cause." And the Democratic Leadership Council added this: "The Iraqi transition to self-government is a prospect that should unite all Americans, and all friends of peace and democracy."

To be sure, the Post's edit page and the DLC are "neocon" Democratic, but their enthusiastic support for Bush's policy is a reminder that internationalist interventionism has deep roots in both parties -- and in truth, much deeper roots in the Democratic Party.

No wonder, then, that Bush's foreign policy is commonly called "Wilsonian"; on Monday, I Googled the words "Bush" and "Wilsonian" and got 34,000 hits.

For neoconservatives, most of them ex-Democrats, Wilsonianism is catnip, recalling the days when their ancestral party stood for robustly remaking the world. But more traditional conservatives and libertarians might reflect for a moment on just who Wilson was, asking themselves whether they really want the 43rd President to walk in the 28th President's footsteps.

Wilson was a religious perfectionist who won World War One, but then lost the peace at the Versailles conference in 1919 and then, later that same year, lost the politics of his hoped-for New World Order when the US Senate refused to join the League of Nations.

Yet for those with a limited-government orientation, Wilson's domestic record is equally noteworthy. During his first term, the president was merely a liberal Democrat; he ushered in the Federal Reserve Board, the Federal Trade Commission, and a small federal income tax. But after he was re-elected, in 1916, he swung far to the left. World War One, declared just a month after his second inauguration, was his rationale for Big Government, followed by Bigger Government. Citing the war emergency, he raised the top income tax rate from seven percent to 77 percent; yet when the war ended in 1918, he refused to lower that punitive and counter-productive top rate.

The Cato Institute's David Boaz further details Wilsonomics:

"In two short years President Woodrow Wilson and Congress created the Council of National Defense, the United States Food Administration, the United States Fuel Administration, the War Industries Board, the Emergency Fleet Corporation, the United States Grain Corporation, the United States Housing Corporation, and the War Finance Corporation. Wilson also nationalized the railroads. It was a dramatic leap toward the megastate we now struggle under, and it could not have been done in the absence of the war."

During the Wilson administration, war was the health of the state. In fact, there's little doubt that Wilsonian progressives, operating with pre-Soviet enthusiasm for central planning, would have nationalized much of the US economy, had they been able.

Happily, instead, a public backlash -- the Republican Party won the Congress in the 1918 midterms and the White House two years later -- forced a de-nationalization of the railroads and thwarted the Fabianization of America.

Yet Wilson and his "ism" endured, mostly inside the Democratic Party. John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson fought the Vietnam War on Wilsonian grounds; it was a war of choice, waged in the name of American ideals. And Jimmy Carter was a thoroughgoing Wilsonian, in sharp contrast to his realpolitiking Republican predecessors. In his 1977 inaugural address, Carter used the words "human rights" or some close variant six times, compared to precisely zero such uses in Richard Nixon's inaugural just four years before.

Yet Carter's idealism pales next to George W. Bush's. On January 20, 2005, the reinaugurated president said "freedom" 27 times, and "liberty" 15 times.

Indeed, on Fox News' "Special Report" on Sunday night, Fred Barnes of The Weekly Standard said that Bush had "totally seized the mantle of idealism" from the Democrats. Barnes is no doubt right about that.

But Bush might have seized more than most Republicans realize; in the chortling words of neocon Robert Kagan, Bush's foreign policy goals are "the antithesis of conservatism."

Of course, the Iraq elections are a fruit of this antithetical-to-conservatism conservatism. Yet the perspectivally empowered might recall with a weary sigh a giddy headline in the September 14, 1967 edition of The New York Times: "U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote: Officials Cite 83% Turnout Despite Vietcong Terror." Only later did Americans learn that South Vietnamese democracy was a weak reed, indeed.

Meanwhile, what of Bush's domestic policy? In January 2004, libertarian-minded Republican political operative Steve Moore rallied a group of conservatives to oppose Bush's "drunken sailor" budget. Yet while the prospect of a John Kerry presidency zipped Moore's loyal lip for the rest of that election year, the fact remains that federal spending has soared under the leadership of this Republican president and two Republican congresses.

Ah, many conservatives say in defense of their W., that was then. Bush had to get re-elected. But now, in his second term, it will all be different. Bush will clamp down on spending, they promise, even as he moves ahead on the privatization -- or, as party-liners call it, personalization --of Social Security.

Well, maybe. But it's going to be a steeply uphill fight. Don't take my word for it: here's National Review's Bushophilic Ramesh Ponnuru, writing right here in TechCentralStation, gently telling the "personalizers" to downsize their expectations.

In fact, history shows that US presidents achieve their domestic goals, if they achieve them at all, in their first term. By their second four term, commanders-in-chief typically grow bored of the hurly-burly of pork, patronage, and parochialism; they yearn to make their mark on the larger canvas of the whole wide world. Such plans, of course, always involve spending more money.

Moreover, presidential persona aside, a basic political reality cuts against cutting back the size of government. What reality is that? War is collective. Sacrifice is communal. And when blood is being spilled in the name of the country, it's hard to advance a politics based on anti-statism and individualism. Arguments that free enterprise expands the economic pie are as valid in wartime as in peacetime, but the simple reality is that war-politics are different. That difference was expressed by British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, who had been a minor socialist before World War One. But after he moved to Number 10 Downing Street in 1916, he proved to be the lion of British victory in the Great War; In 1918, he outlined his homefront mission in these ringing terms: "What is our task? To make Britain a fit country for heroes to live in." Thus did wartime collectivism and communalism gave birth to peacetime cradle-to-grave welfarism.

Lloyd George's words might seem ominous to American conservatives, preoccupied, as they are, with limiting the take of the state. But to Tony Blair, such professed compassion is the sweetest music of domestic politics and policy. Blair is all about the collective and the communal, nationally and internationally; his additional mission -- and he has decided to accept it, is to sell that vision to Bush.

But first, Blair must win re-election this year. Interestingly, with the opposition parties moribund and marginal, Blair's main rival is a fellow Labourite, Gordon Brown, Chancellor of the Exchequer. The two men might sit at the same governing table, but they are rivals nonetheless. And much of their rivalry is aimed at answering the question, "Who can spend more on foreign aid?"

So last month Brown called for a "Marshall Plan" for Africa that would lead to an extra $500 billion in aid. And for his part, at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Blair called for a "quantum leap forward" in African aid -- at least he didn't say "Great Leap Forward."

Will that money be well spent? Or will it simply go down a rathole, like most of the trillions spent since World War Two? Those questions aren't being asked, mostly because the Labour Party, institutionally uncomfortable with a wartime alliance with a Republican American president, is looking for a way to express pure, unadulterated, no-questions-asked liberalism.

Meanwhile, other leaders are getting into the aid-upsmanship game. French President Jacques Chirac has called for a worldwide AIDS tax, and immediately gained the support of Gerhard Schroeder, although the German chancellor has said that he also supports the British aid plan.

Sadly, the Americans have fallen out of the habit of imposing rigorous cost/benefit analysis on foreign aid expenditures. After all, in Iraq, the emphasis has been on getting the money out the door; the US is trying to spend $18.4 billion on parks and playgrounds and other projects with Great Society rapidity. No wonder, then, that the Americans seem to have misplaced $9 billion in Iraq. With a track record such as that, who are we to complain about other countries' careless aid programs?

So the US will find itself tractor-beamed by the Europeans and the Rest of the World -- or ROW, as it's called in Washington -- into many various big-spending plans, Marshall as well as martial. As Blair said at Davos: "If America wants the rest of the world to be part of the agenda it has set, it must be part of their agenda too." And that'll cost us.

Indeed, if America doesn't write blank checks for foreign aid, the alternative is vastly worse. In his 3000-word speech at Davos, Blair devoted approximately a quarter of his talk to the issue of global warming. And on the homefront, a key Democratic supporter of the Global War on Terror, Sen. Joe Lieberman, is also a strong supporter of drastic action on warming. So what to do? Given the hideous expense and dubious utility of any Kyoto-like deal, Bush will likely seek to massage Blair, Lieberman, et al. by spending more money -- including more money on climate change "research."

What won't prove to be an option is to stiff Blair completely, on both foreign aid and global warming. If Bush wants to keep what remains of alliances with key countries -- especially if he wishes to overcome strong opposition from European countries, including Blair's Britain, to possible military action against Iran -- he will have to pony up more money. That's simple politics; sometimes you have to give in order to get.

Thus we see the working alliance between the Labour leader and the Republican leader. Every time the US president declares himself to be vitally concerned about delivering democracy to the peoples of the world, Blair will remind him that Uncle Sam must care about the nutrition, health, and economic development of those same people. To put it bluntly, paternalism is a seamless web. Of course, Bush supporters will argue that bringing democracy will bring about prosperity and self-reliance. And they might be right, although the past record of externally induced democratic and economic transformation is spotty. But as we wait for the hoped-for positive results from US arms and aid, America will not be able to wriggle off the costly hook.

So that's the bottom line: in the process of building an enduring Wilsonian coalition to support strenuous internationalism, Bush will likely end up moving left on domestic policy, just as Wilson did. After all, to keep his bipartisan support, Bush will have to throw occasional bones to the likes of The Washington Post and the Democratic Leadership Council. And as he does, he will likely reap heaps of praise for "growing in office," thus strengthening the pro-spending cycle.

Perhaps Wilson's contemporary, H.L. Mencken, was too harsh when he declared, "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." Or maybe he had it exactly right.

In any case, Mencken is dead, and alas, there's no contemporary figure able to replicate his incisively libertarian vituperation. And so in the absence of effective criticism from the right or the left, Bush will likely join Blair in the creation of a new welfare-warfare paradigm across the globe. The US will provide the grand ideology of freedom, enforced by a costly Pentagon, while the UK will further coax Americans to pay for the world's wellbeing. This new course for the 21st century will certainly be expensive, it will probably prove heartbreaking, it might possibly evince moral clarity -- and it will definitely not be conservative.

Check out this one too:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27822-2005Jan21.html
Swimmingpool
15-02-2005, 22:50
come on, how is this not a hot topic?

bump
Fimble loving peoples
15-02-2005, 22:52
come on, how is this not a hot topic?

bump

I got kinda bored after the first 5 or 6 paragraphs. From what I saw though, it seems to represent Blair as some form of shrewd mastermind, rather than an arse-kissing fool.
Straughn
15-02-2005, 22:55
Thanks for the post. Maybe a few folks will take the time to read, and maybe people like Skapedroe will hop on and point out the similarities with New World Order principles.
Vittos Ordination
15-02-2005, 22:56
I read the whole thing and found it informative and enjoyable, but I have no idea what to say about it.
Vittos Ordination
15-02-2005, 22:57
Perhaps Wilson's contemporary, H.L. Mencken, was too harsh when he declared, "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." Or maybe he had it exactly right.

This was a fantastic line.
Swimmingpool
15-02-2005, 23:04
This was a fantastic line.
He's probably right. Mind you, the parallels between the neocon policy and the traditional Statist/Progressive Left in America are interesting, and have not gone unnoticed by me before.

The difference, the reason why liberals despise Bush, is that the modern Left is not Statist, but liberal, unmilitarist and peace-loving.
Armed Bookworms
15-02-2005, 23:05
come on, how is this not a hot topic?

bump
Lessee, looks at Vietnam, and completely fails to mention the only real reason we lost was because a bunch of voting idiots reacted to the news and CP's propoganda. Assumes that all of Wilson's ideas were bad just because europe was full of idiots and he wanted to nationalize the economy. Last time I checked Bush wasn't nearly the same concerning the economy, and europe's still full of idiots, backed by the complete morons in the UN
Swimmingpool
15-02-2005, 23:08
Lessee, looks at Vietnam, and completely fails to mention the only real reason we lost was because a bunch of voting idiots reacted to the news and CP's propoganda. Assumes that all of Wilson's ideas were bad just because europe was full of idiots and he wanted to nationalize the economy. Last time I checked Bush wasn't nearly the same concerning the economy, and europe's still full of idiots, backed by the complete morons in the UN
Flamalicious.
Armed Bookworms
15-02-2005, 23:13
Flamalicious.
*blinks* I would hope you might think me of much greater capacity for flaming if that were truly my intent.
Domici
15-02-2005, 23:20
I read the whole thing and found it informative and enjoyable, but I have no idea what to say about it.

Personally I tuned out (yet oddly kept reading) after the article postulated that Bush and Blair hoped to end poverty in Africa when it's been England and America that have been keeping Africa poor.

One dictator comes to power, borrows tons of cash from the IMF and makes retarted trade deals selling gold and diamond mines for pennies on the dollar, then the next dictator comes to power and we tell him that he's still responsible to the IMF for the last dictators debts and must honor his land deals. Then it's pointed out to him that the last guy wasn't going to and that's why he's the last guy.
Armed Bookworms
15-02-2005, 23:22
Personally I tuned out (yet oddly kept reading) after the article postulated that Bush and Blair hoped to end poverty in Africa when it's been England and America that have been keeping Africa poor.
Wait a minute here. What country is the biggest diamond company in the world from again? And who's fucking with the Ivory Coast? And what diamond company flooded the market and drove prices down when Zimbabwe tried to set up competition?
Swimmingpool
15-02-2005, 23:27
*blinks* I would hope you might think me of much greater capacity for flaming if that were truly my intent.
You probably are, but I was disappointed that your response to the article was not more intellectually stimulating.

All you did was accuse Europeans of being chronic idiots, the UN of the same, and Nixon voters being panicky. Nothing really worthwhile.
Vittos Ordination
15-02-2005, 23:31
Lessee, looks at Vietnam, and completely fails to mention the only real reason we lost was because a bunch of voting idiots reacted to the news and CP's propoganda. Assumes that all of Wilson's ideas were bad just because europe was full of idiots and he wanted to nationalize the economy. Last time I checked Bush wasn't nearly the same concerning the economy, and europe's still full of idiots, backed by the complete morons in the UN

Don't want to get into Vietnam, and I didn't get the idea that the author thought Wilson's ideas for Europe were bad, whereas they were just failures.

But I did notice that he was making a very incorrect correlation between Bush's economic plan and Wilson's. Wilson was borderline socialist, Bush on the other hand, is capitalist to the hilt.
Domici
15-02-2005, 23:34
Wait a minute here. What country is the biggest diamond company in the world from again? And who's fucking with the Ivory Coast? And what diamond company flooded the market and drove prices down when Zimbabwe tried to set up competition?

I was under the impression that most of the diamond trade was controlled by DeBeers and is run through England.

But ya, the rest of Europe gets its fair share of fucking with Africa too. I didn't mean to imply that they don't, just that the rest of Europe isn't really relevant to the article.
Constantinopolis
15-02-2005, 23:36
Mind you, the parallels between the neocon policy and the traditional Statist/Progressive Left in America are interesting, and have not gone unnoticed by me before.
When exactly did the Left support tax cuts for the rich, the privatization of social security, and other assorted pro-big business policies?
Domici
15-02-2005, 23:37
But I did notice that he was making a very incorrect correlation between Bush's economic plan and Wilson's. Wilson was borderline socialist, Bush on the other hand, is capitalist to the hilt.

Well, Adam Smith, widly regarded as the inventor of capitalism said "it is the natural inclination of business leaders to conspire to produce conditions that reduce trade. In these circumstances it is the function of government to restore freedom of trade." i.e. True capitalism means that big business gets regulated otherwise trade won't really be free.
Constantinopolis
15-02-2005, 23:39
But the Prime Minister, reflecting his own leftist views...
Hahahahahahahahaha!! Tony Blair, a leftist? ROFLMAO!!! That really made my day. Great joke.
Swimmingpool
15-02-2005, 23:40
When exactly did the Left support tax cuts for the rich, the privatization of social security, and other assorted pro-big business policies?
Fair enough, they never did, but I suppose Bush has to maintain some credibility that he's a Republican.

I'm not saying that Bush is the return of the old Statist Left, but you must admit that there are many similarities.
Swimmingpool
15-02-2005, 23:50
Hahahahahahahahaha!! Tony Blair, a leftist? ROFLMAO!!! That really made my day. Great joke.
Yeah, I've noticed that a lot of conservative Americans think he's a liberal.
Vittos Ordination
15-02-2005, 23:51
Well, Adam Smith, widly regarded as the inventor of capitalism said "it is the natural inclination of business leaders to conspire to produce conditions that reduce trade. In these circumstances it is the function of government to restore freedom of trade." i.e. True capitalism means that big business gets regulated otherwise trade won't really be free.

I agree completely with that, but Wilson's actions were more of a wealth redistribution for the poor's sake, not the free market's sake.
Swimmingpool
15-02-2005, 23:53
I agree completely with that, but Wilson's actions were more of a wealth redistribution for the poor's sake, not the free market's sake.
Or rather, for the war's sake too.
Tharkhad
16-02-2005, 00:00
When exactly did the Left support tax cuts for the rich, the privatization of social security, and other assorted pro-big business policies?

I believe the idea behind Bush's tax cut was to cut taxes for all of Americans, and not based on their economic status. Again liberals like to point and say that ONLY the rich got tax cuts when that isn't true. My father works for himself as a tax consultant/accountant and makes roughly $50,000 USD a year. Because of Bush's tax cuts hes been able to more easily expand his business.
The IDC
16-02-2005, 00:05
Asside from outside meddling i would guess that africa's major problem is a totaly anacronistic tribal form of governance.
Llandor
16-02-2005, 00:13
Yeah, I've noticed that a lot of conservative Americans think he's a liberal.

But then, by American standards, he probably is. I mean, we have this crazy extreme-left free healthcare thing! We're all communists!
I heard Michael Howard wasn't allowed to attend some Republican-sponsored event because he was 'too left-wing' :D
Nimharamafala
16-02-2005, 02:49
But then, by American standards, he probably is. I mean, we have this crazy extreme-left free healthcare thing! We're all communists!
I heard Michael Howard wasn't allowed to attend some Republican-sponsored event because he was 'too left-wing' :D

Yeah, I was talking to an American about politics before the election and I mentioned that I was not a huge fan of Bush. This American explained to me that the only reason I felt that way was because I've grown up in a Communist country, and I'm from Canada.
Mystic Mindinao
16-02-2005, 02:57
This is true. The neocons consider Wilsonianism as their ideaological predecessor. I would classify myself as one. However, unlike Wilson, I am not a statist. I believe that a liberal (and prefferably democratic) government be placed in power in a nation, and given the support it needs to rule a country, but little else. That's because little else needs to be done. So long as the government supports a free market, one will grow, and it will improve everyone's lives. This is what happened all around the planet, and makes this system far superior to fascist collectivism.
Upitatanium
16-02-2005, 07:03
Perhaps Wilson's contemporary, H.L. Mencken, was too harsh when he declared, "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." Or maybe he had it exactly right.

This reminds me...did anyone play Half-Life 2?
Swimmingpool
18-02-2005, 20:29
But I did notice that he was making a very incorrect correlation between Bush's economic plan and Wilson's. Wilson was borderline socialist, Bush on the other hand, is capitalist to the hilt.
Actually I would dispute Bush's credibility as pro-capitalist. He's definitely more so than Wilson, but there are some policies which don't fit well into a free market ideology.

*corporate welfare
*willingness to institute protectionism
*massive spending, deficits
*regulation of businesses to fit his "morality"-based agenda

there's probably more that I can't think of now.
Vittos Ordination
18-02-2005, 20:39
Or rather, for the war's sake too.

Most of his presidency was spent trying to keep the US out of the war. His "New Freedom" policies occured a few years before America entered the war.

Actually I would dispute Bush's credibility as pro-capitalist. He's definitely more so than Wilson, but there are some policies which don't fit well into a free market ideology.

*corporate welfare
*willingness to institute protectionism
*massive spending, deficits
*regulation of businesses to fit his "morality"-based agenda

there's probably more that I can't think of now.

I will agree with you there, he is actually hurting the free market, and in a sense is not a capitalist. But in the sense that he has bent over backwards to help big business and corporations, and the fact that he has never known anything besides the corporate lifestyle, he is a fat cat capitalist.

Wilson on the other hand, had many of his actions governed by his hatred of the elite class.
Constantinopolis
18-02-2005, 21:57
I'm not saying that Bush is the return of the old Statist Left, but you must admit that there are many similarities.
You can find similarities between any two random ideologies if you look hard enough... and a desire to spread your particular system of government around the world is pretty commonplace.

I believe the idea behind Bush's tax cut was to cut taxes for all of Americans, and not based on their economic status. Again liberals like to point and say that ONLY the rich got tax cuts when that isn't true. My father works for himself as a tax consultant/accountant and makes roughly $50,000 USD a year. Because of Bush's tax cuts hes been able to more easily expand his business.
Even if we accept that as true, can you tell me why Bush couldn't just give a tax cut to the middle class, and instead just HAD to give a tax cut that vastly favoured the rich and bankrupted the country?

So long as the government supports a free market, one will grow, and it will improve everyone's lives. This is what happened all around the planet...
Yes, just look at countries like Argentina and Russia. The free market did wonders for them - Argentina looks like it set the world record for "fastest fall from first world to third world status"! Yes indeed, the free market is wonderful.

[/sarcasm]

...and makes this system far superior to fascist collectivism.
Just out of curiosity, where's the "collectivism" in fascism? I was under the impression that "collectivism" means something that actually involves - you know - a collective. So where's this collective in fascism? I certainly don't see it anywhere. In fact, all fascist dictatorships were ruled by an individual with absolute power, and the collective (that is, the people) had no power.

Actually I would dispute Bush's credibility as pro-capitalist. He's definitely more so than Wilson, but there are some policies which don't fit well into a free market ideology.
"Free market ideology" is only really supported by silly brainwashed kids (otherwise known as "libertarians") who have an almost religious faith in the free market despite all the evils it has caused and despite basic economic knowledge that shows why a purely free market could never work.

In the real world, politicians are either pro-worker or pro-business. Being a "pro-capitalist" means being pro-business (helping out your rich corporate buddies), and Bush certainly fits that profile.
Vittos Ordination
18-02-2005, 22:06
You can find similarities between any two random ideologies if you look hard enough... and a desire to spread your particular system of government around the world is pretty commonplace.

Some of the similarities are stretches, but both wished to expand the government for moral reasons.

Even if we accept that as true, can you tell me why Bush couldn't just give a tax cut to the middle class, and instead just HAD to give a tax cut that vastly favoured the rich and bankrupted the country?

I don't want to argue this.

Yes, just look at countries like Argentina and Russia. The free market did wonders for them - Argentina looks like it set the world record for "fastest fall from first world to third world status"! Yes indeed, the free market is wonderful.

Those are very far from a free market, and had very strong external forces that led to their decline.

Just out of curiosity, where's the "collectivism" in fascism? I was under the impression that "collectivism" means something that actually involves - you know - a collective. So where's this collective in fascism? I certainly don't see it anywhere. In fact, all fascist dictatorships were ruled by an individual with absolute power, and the collective (that is, the people) had no power.

Agree with you there.

"Free market ideology" is only really supported by silly brainwashed kids (otherwise known as "libertarians") who have an almost religious faith in the free market despite all the evils it has caused and despite basic economic knowledge that shows why a purely free market could never work.

And most economists and western nations. But what do they know.

The answer to that is: More than you.

In the real world, politicians are either pro-worker or pro-business. Being a "pro-capitalist" means being pro-business (helping out your rich corporate buddies), and Bush certainly fits that profile.

There is a hasty generalisation there. If you are going to make one, make a good one and say that most politicians are pro-politician.
Armed Bookworms
18-02-2005, 22:29
This reminds me...did anyone play Half-Life 2?
Of course. Why, Wilson remind you of Breen?
Vittos Ordination
18-02-2005, 22:54
Why do all of my favorite threads die a slow, agonizing death?
Swimmingpool
19-02-2005, 04:33
Why do all of my favorite threads die a slow, agonizing death?
bizump
Swimmingpool
19-02-2005, 04:36
And most economists and western nations. But what do they know.
Not true. They support markets, but not entirely free ones. Almost every western nation supports the WTO, which is in favour of protectionism to keep the third world impoverished.