NationStates Jolt Archive

This was a bit of a shock for me, I mean, I dont normally look at South America as anything more than that big blobby thing below Mexico.
Today I ran across a refrence to Brazilian aircraft carriers (Bought from Britain), further investigation reveals that Brazil says it can produce fuel for nuclear submarines.
So, could this mean nukes?
I personally find it a bit scary that theres a nuclear weapon in South America period.
Oh...and apparently Argentina has aircraft carriers as well.
True, this is all military, but could it be that Brazil is trying to get its share of the world stage? Certainly they have the capability, especialy if they figured out that they could make a huge amount of money through medical exports (Rather than cutting the rainforest down to make room of unsuccesful farms...not to get too 'save the rainforest'ey), and they have plenty of space to expand into.
And, very important, they have an interesting flag O_O

Yeah our flag is great, but you should hear our national anthem (http://www.scapin.org/brazilian_anthem.htm)

About time someone noticed the little region called South America. Yes we do have nuclear power stations, yes we do have aircraft carriers, yes we even have a space program. But shh. we don't want Bush to notice. ;)

Yes, and Japan and Brazil have both agreed to support each other's bids for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council.

Brazil already is a world power. They are working very hard in the G-20 and the WTO to get a better deal for non-European, non-North American countries. They've done an excellent job of building alliances and support from their neighbours, and recognize that the 'smaller' nations can't solve all of their domestic problems without recognition and fair play from the world's larger powers.

Brazil does some work with nuclear material, but the IAEA has had quite a bit of free reign with inspection. They've found nothing for the past twenty years.[

However, Brazil is a rising power. After the US, it is the most powerful nation in the Western Hemisphere. It is a growing economic giant, and is flexing its political muscle. It is regarded as the leader of Third World economic interests, and is the reason the FTAA doesn't exist yet.

Brazil already is a world power. They are working very hard in the G-20 and the WTO to get a better deal for non-European, non-North American countries.
So hopefully that means they don't have a fetish for Japan.

Brazil does some work with nuclear material, but the IAEA has had quite a bit of free reign with inspection. They've found nothing for the past twenty years.
However, Brazil is a rising power. After the US, it is the most powerful nation in the Western Hemisphere. It is a growing economic giant, and is flexing its political muscle. It is regarded as the leader of Third World economic interests, and is the reason the FTAA doesn't exist yet.

It is not the lone reason that the FTAA, or what is known here as ALCA, does not yet exist. The USA has to bear its share of the blame, by wanting to impose unfair conditions.

I still think it has way too many problems to be anything but a middle power. It is surrounded by corrupt governments, in a very unstable area of the world, wouldnt take much to plunge it into chaos. It has a massive crime + poverty problem.

And while growing economically and it is on of the top ten largest economies in the world because it is such a large nation, not because suddenly the average person is affluent...

It is not the lone reason that the FTAA, or what is known here as ALCA, does not yet exist. The USA has to bear its share of the blame, by wanting to impose unfair conditions.
If you are reffering to the agricultural subsidies, they certainly can be negotiated, especially since Bush is eager to cut them. But otherwise, I see no reason for FTAA not to go through.

And while growing economically and it is on of the top ten largest economies in the world because it is such a large nation, not because suddenly the average person is affluent...

The average person doesn't have to be affluent for a nation to be a world power. Take the former Soviet Union or today's China, for example.

Brazil may not be in the G-8 or the EU, but they have a great deal of influence on other countries. They're not a super power (obviously, as there is only one right now), but they're definitely up there and getting more influential all the time.

I still think it has way too many problems to be anything but a middle power. It is surrounded by corrupt governments, in a very unstable area of the world, wouldnt take much to plunge it into chaos. It has a massive crime + poverty problem.

And while growing economically and it is on of the top ten largest economies in the world because it is such a large nation, not because suddenly the average person is affluent...

The poverty problem is trying to be addressed. Crime is no worse here than in the US.
It and the surrounding area has survived a series of financial attacks originating from the first world currency traders and rating agencies such as Standard and Poors, endemic political interferance from the first world, some natural disasters, and the transition from dictatorship to democracy without falling into chaos. The economies in South america are beginning to stabilise, the political systems are maturing past that initial phase of "the every man and his dog" party.
Unfortunately we are beginning to appear on the long distance radar screen, so we can expect some flack.
Brazil has strong trading links with China, The EU, most of South America and with North America. We are the worlds largest producer of steel, we may have, though no-one seems sure of this, an extensive reserve of oil in the ground, both on land and off shore. We have extensive hydropelectric power systems, we are shifting over to an alcohol based car fuel system. All in all, I do not think we have too many problems.

Where we do have big problems to resolve is in the justice system which makes a comatose tortoise look like an olympic sprint champion, and in our financial services sector which is too greedy by far. We also have an overstuffed civil service and a culture of personality politics which need to change.

Yes, Brazil is definitely becoming more prominent in the world, and personally I don't really care if they do get nukes (it's not like they have any enemies). I also support their (and Japan's) bid to be placed on the Security Council permanently, preferably by booting off a few pointless EU countries. We'll also need to make room for India soon ;)

South America isn't the craphole it's made out to be.

If you are reffering to the agricultural subsidies, they certainly can be negotiated, especially since Bush is eager to cut them. But otherwise, I see no reason for FTAA not to go through.

No. Steel subsidy, restriction on import quantities into the USA, cotton, orange juice, capital transference, financial services etc. etc. It is typical US negotiating. Stack the deck completely, then offer a few sops and say that the other side is not willing to negotiate.
Unless the whole thing is renegotiated from scrap, Brazil is unlikely to sign. We do not actually need our trade with the US. Remove our exports to them and we still have a balance of trade surplus. We do not depend upon the US for military technology or anything really. (Films and crap TV maybe, but that is optional)

What this means is that Brazil can not have its arm twisted into signing a treaty or agreement which does not interest it. There is also the slight problem that the current ruling party here PT (Partido dos Trabalhadores, Worker's Party) is politically opposed to the US in almost everything. 2006 we have a presidential election. Let us see what happens then.

Brazil? A world power? I have a Brazilian friend; he's told me good things about the place. Sounds cool; I approve.

--The Jovial States of Cogitation
NationStates Self-Proclaimed Court Jester

...

Seriously, though, it does sound cool.

Yes, Brazil is definitely becoming more prominent in the world, and personally I don't really care if they do get nukes (it's not like they have any enemies). I also support their (and Japan's) bid to be placed on the Security Council permanently, preferably by booting off a few pointless EU countries. We'll also need to make room for India soon ;)

South America isn't the craphole it's made out to be.

well the areas I have been in sure are crap holes.

well the areas I have been in sure are crap holes.

Where did you go?

The average person doesn't have to be affluent for a nation to be a world power. Take the former Soviet Union or today's China, for example.

Brazil may not be in the G-8 or the EU, but they have a great deal of influence on other countries. They're not a super power (obviously, as there is only one right now), but they're definitely up there and getting more influential all the time.


I think a former thread addressed some of this, i would pick india as the next major power IMO

No. Steel subsidy, restriction on import quantities into the USA, cotton, orange juice, capital transference, financial services etc. etc. It is typical US negotiating. Stack the deck completely, then offer a few sops and say that the other side is not willing to negotiate.
Unless the whole thing is renegotiated from scrap, Brazil is unlikely to sign. We do not actually need our trade with the US. Remove our exports to them and we still have a balance of trade surplus. We do not depend upon the US for military technology or anything really. (Films and crap TV maybe, but that is optional)

I'm not entirely a fan of US trade policy, but I support free trade, and the last two presidents were the first two to seriously attempt it. At the very least, Brazil needs to give it a chance. But I'm hopeful that the current president will be booted out this year.
What this means is that Brazil can not have its arm twisted into signing a treaty or agreement which does not interest it. There is also the slight problem that the current ruling party here PT (Partido dos Trabalhadores, Worker's Party) is politically opposed to the US in almost everything. 2006 we have a presidential election. Let us see what happens then.
Well, fine. But many, many other nations are interested in signing this treaty, especially Colombia, Ecuador, and the Central American states. In the future, though, Brazil may regret not joining. The FTAA is hoped by some to one day evolve into a common marketplace that will rival the EU's. But I guess that's just more power for us Americans.

Where did you go?

Lima, rio, not many places, granted..

well the areas I have been in sure are crap holes.

There are crapholes in South America, but it's a big place outside of the guerilla battlefields. There are plenty of places that, while not necessarily as rich as us in North America, are quite nice in their own way. It does get annoying hearing some of them complain about first world "tyranny" etc. all the time, though.

Lima, rio, not many places, granted..

Rio sucks big time. Tourist trap with drug gangs. Avoid it. Lima, I can't comment from experience but I've not heard anything good about it.

OK. I am going to get myself lynched here for saying this, but you should try Buenos Aires. In Brazil try Curitiba, Porto Alegre, Maceió, Manaus, Salvador, for big cities. For holidays anywhere on the coast in the North East, Try Jericoacoara if you are adventurous, or Costa de Sauipe if you want luxury. Inland go to the Pantanal. A place called Bonito is a good place to start.

It goes on forever. No, here is not a dump. Big, noisy, polluted, crime ridden cities are dumps anywhere in the world.

I'm not entirely a fan of US trade policy, but I support free trade, and the last two presidents were the first two to seriously attempt it. At the very least, Brazil needs to give it a chance. But I'm hopeful that the current president will be booted out this year.

We would happily agree to a multilateral free trade agreement. It is just that that is not what the USA is offering. The FTAA is free trade for the USA here, with barriers against trade there. No not acceptable. Free trade is free trade for all, not just some.

Well, fine. But many, many other nations are interested in signing this treaty, especially Colombia, Ecuador, and the Central American states. In the future, though, Brazil may regret not joining. The FTAA is hoped by some to one day evolve into a common marketplace that will rival the EU's. But I guess that's just more power for us Americans.

As above, if it were a multilaterally equivalent treaty, like the EU agreement, then we would have no problem. It is just that the US wants to hold some particular products and services out of the agreement. Those that are financially vulnerable in the USA. Even this might be acceptable if other nations could introduce such exclusions, but the US refuses to consider this. It is not a matter of more power to the americans, that does not really bother us the way you appear to think. It is a matter of fair negotiation. Now Coloumbia, Ecuador and the small central americn states such as Nicaragua, Guatemala and so on, depend much more heavily on their trade with the US. The more economically powerful South American countries: Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela, and Paraguay do not like the treaty the way it is. It is not just Brazil.

As above, if it were a multilaterally equivalent treaty, like the EU agreement, then we would have no problem. It is just that the US wants to hold some particular products and services out of the agreement. Those that are financially vulnerable in the USA. Even this might be acceptable if other nations could introduce such exclusions, but the US refuses to consider this. It is not a matter of more power to the americans, that does not really bother us the way you appear to think. It is a matter of fair negotiation. Now Coloumbia, Ecuador and the small central americn states such as Nicaragua, Guatemala and so on, depend much more heavily on their trade with the US. The more economically powerful South American countries: Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela, and Paraguay do not like the treaty the way it is. It is not just Brazil.
It's better than what stands now, where everything is subject to rampant subsidies and tariffs on both sides.

It's better than what stands now, where everything is subject to rampant subsidies and tariffs on both sides.

Maybe, that does not mean that we should be signatories to an unfair treaty, does it?

Maybe, that does not mean that we should be signatories to an unfair treaty, does it?
If it's better than what you have, yes. Brazil and the US aren't heavy trading partners now, but under a free trade agreement, Brazilian manufactuers can send far more products into the world's most lucrative market. Most nations would starve their people if it meant a free trade agreement with the US. Okay, maybe not that far, but you get my point.

If it's better than what you have, yes. Brazil and the US aren't heavy trading partners now, but under a free trade agreement, Brazilian manufactuers can send far more products into the world's most lucrative market. Most nations would starve their people if it meant a free trade agreement with the US. Okay, maybe not that far, but you get my point.

You are still missing the point. The agreement, as it stood, did not give us free trade with the US, it only gave the US free trade with us, and the other South American countries. That would starve our people, literally.

I am afraid to say that, to Brazil, you are not the most lucrative market, because of the barriers that exist and would have continued existing after the FTAA agreement. For us the EU is far more lucrative, as is Asia as a whole.

Anyway. This is not supposed to be a thread about ALCA, nor is it supposed to be another bash the US thread. I will close my side of this discussion with the comments that if the US wishes to trade fairly with us, we will listen and consider the proposals. We are like that. If they wish to impose a biased agreement, then we will simply say no thank you. The original FTAA proposal came from the USA, it was rejected. If they wish to propose something different, fair enough, if they wish to insist on a proposal that others did not agree to, they will simply be ignored.

Hey guys, my dad is the president of a huge orange juice co. in Florida, and he knows alot about Brazil because he deals with them near constantly.......

I don't know much, but I can see it becoming a world power....they have the land, they have the manpower, they have the economic stability,...Brazil would definetly be my choice....even though my dad has to go through them to keep his groves up and running, and he has sort of a grudge against Brazil, even he admitts that he thinks it'll be a huge world power.

I have one question though if anyone can answer it.....i think my dad said somthing about this i'm not sure....

Cars can run on gasoline or an alchohol-based fuel down there? It sounded pretty crazy, just flip a switch, kind of thing....i don't know
you all seem to know a lot though

Cars can run on gasoline or an alchohol-based fuel down there? It sounded pretty crazy, just flip a switch, kind of thing....i don't know
you all seem to know a lot though

Well I live in Brazil. See that little location thing under my nick, it's true in my case.
In the 1970s Brazil had a vast excess crop of sugar cane. Now we could have turned it all into cachaça and got very drunk, but no, the government at the time, a military dictatorship, wanted us to be independent of the OPEC crap that was going on. So they funded research into alcohol as a fuel for internal combustion engines. It turns out that it works pretty well, actually gives out more HP than gasoline, but there are some drawbacks. It does not work well in cold weather. 20 degrees celsius (mid 70s farenheit) is OK but below this it tends to stutter. So we had cars that ran on alcohol. Now this menat that the consumer had to chose, when buying a car, between gasoline or alcohol. It stayed like that fro 25 years. Oh, our gasoline here has up to 20% alcohol added to it as well.
Recently the car manufacturers have developped what they call "flex" power. These are engines that will automaticaly adjust to run on gasoline, alcohol or any mix between. You need to change the injection mixture and the spark timing as the mixture changes, which is possible with electronic injection and computer controlled timing.
I hope this answers your question.

Oh, the alcohol is not drinkable.

well the areas I have been in sure are crap holes.
What places were those again, hmmm? Alberta boy...you better not be lying.... :p

Edit: Lima, Rio...okay, I can only speak for Lima. Lima is psychotic! Lima is a huge, huge slum. You have to drive for hours to find the affluent neighbourhoods (and yes, they exist), but for the most part, Lima is the ugliest city I've even seen...but I did meet some good people there:) Anywho...don't judge a continent by a few cities. Man, people don't judge Canada by Toronto (I hope)!

It sucks that Brazil also has the largest external debt in the world...something like $735 billion...yikes! Who needs a free trade agreement when IMF loan requirements can tie Lula's hands anyway?

Yeah, I remember when they exported the Puma from Brazil in the 70's. Technically you could order it with the alcohol engine in Canada, but given there was nowhere to buy it nor is it a useful fuel up here - no-one did.


It was a fun little car though.

It sucks that Brazil also has the largest external debt in the world...something like $735 billion...yikes! Who needs a free trade agreement when IMF loan requirements can tie Lula's hands anyway?

Yeah Its a pig. But rather than whinge about it, we are simply building a powerful enough economy to wipe it out. We are actually inside of all the IMF targets, and still have leeway in the budget for some social programs.
How? By keeping military spending in check, by cutting out some of the corruption (a load more to go yet) and by being fiscally responsible through all levels of government.

A lesson that certain other countries could certainly use.

Yeah, I remember when they exported the Puma from Brazil in the 70's. Technically you could order it with the alcohol engine in Canada, but given there was nowhere to buy it nor is it a useful fuel up here - no-one did.


It was a fun little car though.

It still is here. No new ones available but lots of old ones running around.

No. Alcohol is not going to work very well where the diesel fuel freezes. :(

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