NationStates Jolt Archive

Why is it “eternal suffering”
Something a Christian friend said for some reason sparked off a thought… though to understand the point of view we have to have some axioms (even if I don’t believe them I can at least try to understand the axioms)
1) god is omnipotent
2) god is omni loving
3) god is all knowing
4) god is omni present
Now this is not an argument on why he sent you to hell in the first place (there are some major issues with that I know but this is not the argument for the day)

Now lets say you were bad … and god sent you to hell (or you sent you to hell however you choose to see it)
Why is it eternal suffering ? (again depends on your definition of what hell is … a lot of people see the traditional fire lake sort of thing while others think it is just a separation from god)
Why do you have to stay there eternally? Would you not think an all loving god would pay attention and see that you are genuinely sorry and genuinely start believing in him? Would he then not save them?
(trying real hard not to distain someone that needs worship so much that he would eternally punish those who don’t)
Why does he not save those who may have fallen but have discovered the error of their ways?

I can't see how it can be eternal suffering. Because if you know you there forever, eventually you'll adapt and get used to it surely. If you know there's no way out, you'll eventually learn and find ways to cope with the levels of pain.
Unless it's done that you don't realise it's happening over and over again. But the only way to do that is by erasing your short-term memories (much like Guy Pearce in 'Memento'). But if they did that to you, you wouldn't realise it's eternal and would constantly forget the previous tortures. So it wouldn't be that bad really.

I can't see how it can be eternal suffering. Because if you know you there forever, eventually you'll adapt and get used to it surely. If you know there's no way out, you'll eventually learn and find ways to cope with the levels of pain.
Unless it's done that you don't realise it's happening over and over again. But the only way to do that is by erasing your short-term memories (much like Guy Pearce in 'Memento'). But if they did that to you, you wouldn't realise it's eternal and would constantly forget the previous tortures. So it wouldn't be that bad really.
Intresting way to thing of adaptation to envyroment :)

In 1999 the Pope dismissed the notion of heaven and hell being physical realms, which in turn led people to question the credibility of the religion-wrought papal system. You can find the source by googling "pope heaven hell not real" (here's one, if you like: http://www.ovrlnd.com/Cults/poprejectshell.html). The interesting thing is that every source I've found so far cites the Bible to explain why the Pope is apparently wrong in his denial of these realms. The reason so many cling so fervently to this idea of heaven and hell?

Because for many people, living a good life for the sake of a good life is not enough. They need to believe in physical states after death for two reasons: 1) it gives justification to their sense of morality and 2) it reassures them that their lives are not meaningless. People need to think that their lives are full of meaning - this is why so many believe in fate, and it explains the fanaticism of the religious right; by waging minor crusades for marriage definitions, religion in schools, and, hell, even things like the elimination of New Age religion, contraceptives, and Pepsi (as there are some who find the Pepsi symbol too similar to the yin yang, and thus a threat to Occidental religion) these people are carving out reasons for living. These self-determined "missions" give them the drive and fervour they need to live out their lives; it gives them a sense of (supposedly divine) purpose.

And what I find most troubling about this whole philosophy can be encapsulated in the belief that "if Jesus is not your Lord and Savior, you are on your way to hell" (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/hellreal.htm), or even just the idea that Jesus alone is the way to eternal life. I find this loathsome not only because of how black-and-white it is, but also because this whole doctrine suggests that threat of hell (or no eternal life) is needed for people to follow the teachings of Jesus. How sorry a state is that, that people need the promise of reward or threat of punishment to live a good life?

Moreover, how viable is the threat of "eternal suffering," as your post asks? One thing I could never comprehend as a child was the utter unoriginality of the religious afterlife. You live in this world for a quantifiable amount of time, committing a quantifiable amount of rights and wrongs, and then when you kick the bucket you're committed to eternal suffering or eternal bliss? Putting aside what is meant by "suffering" or "bliss" (because this is a tremendous point of contention; many religious even believe that heaven involves the detachment of soul from identity, so that you live in bliss without having any memory of your life on earth... and to that I say how is that any different from atheism, and the belief that your life ends when you die; if you don't know who you are or were, can it really be said that you're still alive?)... putting this question aside, we're left wondering... well, you're living forever - then what? What in the name of blazes do you do for infinity? Either way, I'd expect you'd have to go mad - a happy delirious if there's a heaven, and a delusional mad if there's a hell - and, in that case, are you not still detached from all previous identity? Don't you eventually lose it? And, if so, haven't you lost who you are; isn't that the same as just pushing up daisies?

For these reasons, I find the reward/punishment system of religious teachings to be a flawed one. As a humanist, I believe in living a good life for the sake of a good life - being good to your neighbour, and being just and honest in all your practices, without expectation of any reward. I don't believe in life after death - all the more reason, I feel, to live this one as best as we can, because everyone around us is just as lost as we are, and the only way to get through it is to get through it together. Mind you, I do acknowledge that there are many religious people who likewise practise goodness without thought of reward or potential punishment. I find these people tremendously worthy of admiration.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, regardless of the definition of "eternal suffering," if we're only doing acts of kindness for fear of punishment or in hopes of reward, how pure can these acts ever truly be?

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. Hugs and love to everyone reading this. And pass a hug along to at least one other person today, eh? It's amazing how even the smallest good deed can make a big difference. Peace, guys.

In 1999 the Pope dismissed the notion of heaven and hell being physical realms, which in turn led people to question the credibility of the religion-wrought papal system. You can find the source by googling "pope heaven hell not real" (here's one, if you like: http://www.ovrlnd.com/Cults/poprejectshell.html). The interesting thing is that every source I've found so far cites the Bible to explain why the Pope is apparently wrong in his denial of these realms. The reason so many cling so fervently to this idea of heaven and hell?

Because for many people, living a good life for the sake of a good life is not enough. They need to believe in physical states after death for two reasons: 1) it gives justification to their sense of morality and 2) it reassures them that their lives are not meaningless. People need to think that their lives are full of meaning - this is why so many believe in fate, and it explains the fanaticism of the religious right; by waging minor crusades for marriage definitions, religion in schools, and, hell, even things like the elimination of New Age religion, contraceptives, and Pepsi (as there are some who find the Pepsi symbol too similar to the yin yang, and thus a threat to Occidental religion) these people are carving out reasons for living. These self-determined "missions" give them the drive and fervour they need to live out their lives; it gives them a sense of (supposedly divine) purpose.

And what I find most troubling about this whole philosophy can be encapsulated in the belief that "if Jesus is not your Lord and Savior, you are on your way to hell" (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/hellreal.htm), or even just the idea that Jesus alone is the way to eternal life. I find this loathsome not only because of how black-and-white it is, but also because this whole doctrine suggests that threat of hell (or no eternal life) is needed for people to follow the teachings of Jesus. How sorry a state is that, that people need the promise of reward or threat of punishment to live a good life?

Moreover, how viable is the threat of "eternal suffering," as your post asks? One thing I could never comprehend as a child was the utter unoriginality of the religious afterlife. You live in this world for a quantifiable amount of time, committing a quantifiable amount of rights and wrongs, and then when you kick the bucket you're committed to eternal suffering or eternal bliss? Putting aside what is meant by "suffering" or "bliss" (because this is a tremendous point of contention; many religious even believe that heaven involves the detachment of soul from identity, so that you live in bliss without having any memory of your life on earth... and to that I say how is that any different from atheism, and the belief that your life ends when you die; if you don't know who you are or were, can it really be said that you're still alive?)... putting this question aside, we're left wondering... well, you're living forever - then what? What in the name of blazes do you do for infinity? Either way, I'd expect you'd have to go mad - a happy delirious if there's a heaven, and a delusional mad if there's a hell - and, in that case, are you not still detached from all previous identity? Don't you eventually lose it? And, if so, haven't you lost who you are; isn't that the same as just pushing up daisies?

For these reasons, I find the reward/punishment system of religious teachings to be a flawed one. As a humanist, I believe in living a good life for the sake of a good life - being good to your neighbour, and being just and honest in all your practices, without expectation of any reward. I don't believe in life after death - all the more reason, I feel, to live this one as best as we can, because everyone around us is just as lost as we are, and the only way to get through it is to get through it together. Mind you, I do acknowledge that there are many religious people who likewise practise goodness without thought of reward or potential punishment. I find these people tremendously worthy of admiration.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, regardless of the definition of "eternal suffering," if we're only doing acts of kindness for fear of punishment or in hopes of reward, how pure can these acts ever truly be?

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. Hugs and love to everyone reading this. And pass a hug along to at least one other person today, eh? It's amazing how even the smallest good deed can make a big difference. Peace, guys.
Defiantly a well thought out post thank you

I to find the unoriginality in the definitions (at least what you can make of all the different individual beliefs) a bit of a contention point with logically believing in thus for stated places.
Essentially most religions boil down to the happiest place they can think of or the worst place, when they think of something worse they add it to the definition of one … or if they don’t think that heaven is as happy as it could be they make changes to what is included in it.

The truely baffling thing is that suffering is a state of mind. Adopt a cheery attitude and forget your troubles, and there's no torture that hell can put you through that you *have to* suffer.

The truely baffling thing is that suffering is a state of mind. Adopt a cheery attitude and forget your troubles, and there's no torture that hell can put you through that you *have to* suffer.
*wistiling from a cross*

"always look on the bright side of life ..."

*wistiling from a cross*

"always look on the bright side of life ..."
"Peter! I can see your house from here."

"Peter! I can see your house from here."
By george I think he's got it :D

Well, eternal suffer can stll be just and merciful if God says so.
Don't ask.
Only the unfaithful ask.

The truely baffling thing is that suffering is a state of mind. Adopt a cheery attitude and forget your troubles, and there's no torture that hell can put you through that you *have to* suffer.

What about boredom?

Anyway, you should all follow the ancient Egyptian religion. At least that didn't have a hell, only an uncomfortable place. With a way out.
(unless you were a *real* asshole, in which case you got eaten)

Well, eternal suffer can stll be just and merciful if God says so.
Don't ask.
Only the unfaithful ask.
I am unfaithful so I ask how can it be merciful (hope this was a joke)

You dare asking only because of your lack of understanding God's grace?
It is merciful because God says so. Full stop.
Now if you still believe otherwise, you're on your way to hell where all the people went who bothered pious christians with their silly questions.

(Yes, this is a joke because I can't understand too how the suffer-part fits into the image of a loving and merciful God. But indeed, the main answer I've heard from christians were bibel quotes and that it makes sense because God says so.)

( But indeed, the main answer I've heard from christians were bible quotes and that it makes sense because God says so.)

Sounds depressingly familiar. Try quoting the various other versions of the bible at them to confuse them. The Jewish Ten Commandments are in a different order, and are worded VERY differently, to keep in with the whole 'Dark and Vengeful' thing. I always liked God in the old testament, when he was a right twat and acted like anyone that powerful would. Take that, Sodom! Screw you, Gamorrah!

*snip*

Fantastic post, welcome to NS.

It should be noted that Christianity is a religion of the meek. Most of the laws of Christianity not included in the ten commandments revolve around insecurities.

As for hell, Christians need a God to punish sinners, just as a flock of sheep needs a shepherd to shoot the wolf.

It should be noted that Christianity is a religion of the meek. Most of the laws of Christianity not included in the ten commandments revolve around insecurities.

As for hell, Christians need a God to punish sinners, just as a flock of sheep needs a shepherd to shoot the wolf.

At the sermon on the mount:

Spectator I: I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".
Bearded Man's Wife: Aha, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
Bearded Man: Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
Wiseguy: See, if you hadn't been going on we'd have heard that, Bignose.
Bignose: Hey, say that once more, I'll smash your bloody face in!
Wiseguy: Oh, better keep listening, might be a bit about "Blessed are the Bignoses".
Brian: Oh, lay off him!
Wiseguy: Oh, you're not so bad yourself, conkface. Where are you two from? Nose City?
Wiseguy: One more time, mate, I'll take you to the fucking cleaners!
Bignose's Wife: Language! And don't pick your nose!
Bignose: I wasn't going to pick my nose! I'm gonna thump him!
Spectator II: Hear that, blessed are the Greek!
Bearded Man: The Greek?
Spectator II: Hmm. Well, apparently he's going to inherit the earth.
Bearded Man: Did anyone catch his name?
Bignose's Wife: You're not gonna thump anybody!
Bignose: I'll thump him if he calls me "Bignose" again!
Wiseguy: Oh, shut up, Bignose!
Bignose: Ha, right! I warned you! I really will slug you! Saaah...
Bignose's Wife: Oh, it's "the meek!" Blessed are the meek! Oh, that's nice, innit? I'm glad they're getting something because they have a hell of a time down here.

-Snip!-

Hmm...Fantastic post. I hope to see more of their like from you in the future.

At the sermon on the mount:

Spectator I: I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".
Bearded Man's Wife: Aha, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
Bearded Man: Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
Wiseguy: See, if you hadn't been going on we'd have heard that, Bignose.
Bignose: Hey, say that once more, I'll smash your bloody face in!
Wiseguy: Oh, better keep listening, might be a bit about "Blessed are the Bignoses".
Brian: Oh, lay off him!
Wiseguy: Oh, you're not so bad yourself, conkface. Where are you two from? Nose City?
Wiseguy: One more time, mate, I'll take you to the fucking cleaners!
Bignose's Wife: Language! And don't pick your nose!
Bignose: I wasn't going to pick my nose! I'm gonna thump him!
Spectator II: Hear that, blessed are the Greek!
Bearded Man: The Greek?
Spectator II: Hmm. Well, apparently he's going to inherit the earth.
Bearded Man: Did anyone catch his name?
Bignose's Wife: You're not gonna thump anybody!
Bignose: I'll thump him if he calls me "Bignose" again!
Wiseguy: Oh, shut up, Bignose!
Bignose: Ha, right! I warned you! I really will slug you! Saaah...
Bignose's Wife: Oh, it's "the meek!" Blessed are the meek! Oh, that's nice, innit? I'm glad they're getting something because they have a hell of a time down here.


Lol the second python quote :) none the less ... the best thing ever for a nation that is the head of the monty python region :)

Eternal suffering. I think it is exactly what it says it is. A lake of fire, fire, pain, burning. I can attest to fire being the most painful thins I have endured. I've been shot, stabbed, spinal tapped, numeous bones broken, but nothing was as painful as when my arm caught on fire. It hurt when it happened, and on and on..i throbbed, i throbbed through the vicodin. it was terrible. I think we also have memories. We remember happy times and fell even worse because those times seem like yesterday.

Another thing is that if you're there for eternity, eventually you'll probably go completely insane (either through pain or through boredom). In which case it would stop hurting you, as you (as the rational person you are now) would no longer exist.

Actually that reminds me of a drem I had once where I died and my consciousness left my body. Because I no longer had a body in which to feel or move or see, I just sort of floated in darkness, unaware of what was around me, unable to communicate with anyone. If this is what happens when we die, I think eventually you would go mad, and perhaps create the place you most feel is apt for you in order to cope with your crushing loneliness. Your own personal Hell or Heaven.
Just a thought.

Another thing is that if you're there for eternity, eventually you'll probably go completely insane (either through pain or through boredom). In which case it would stop hurting you, as you (as the rational person you are now) would no longer exist.

Actually that reminds me of a drem I had once where I died and my consciousness left my body. Because I no longer had a body in which to feel or move or see, I just sort of floated in darkness, unaware of what was around me, unable to communicate with anyone. If this is what happens when we die, I think eventually you would go mad, and perhaps create the place you most feel is apt for you in order to cope with your crushing loneliness. Your own personal Hell or Heaven.
Just a thought.
Deffinatly a different way to think about things

In 1999 the Pope dismissed the notion of heaven and hell being physical realms, which in turn led people to question the credibility of the religion-wrought papal system. You can find the source by googling "pope heaven hell not real" (here's one, if you like: http://www.ovrlnd.com/Cults/poprejectshell.html). The interesting thing is that every source I've found so far cites the Bible to explain why the Pope is apparently wrong in his denial of these realms. The reason so many cling so fervently to this idea of heaven and hell?

Because for many people, living a good life for the sake of a good life is not enough. They need to believe in physical states after death for two reasons: 1) it gives justification to their sense of morality and 2) it reassures them that their lives are not meaningless. People need to think that their lives are full of meaning - this is why so many believe in fate, and it explains the fanaticism of the religious right; by waging minor crusades for marriage definitions, religion in schools, and, hell, even things like the elimination of New Age religion, contraceptives, and Pepsi (as there are some who find the Pepsi symbol too similar to the yin yang, and thus a threat to Occidental religion) these people are carving out reasons for living. These self-determined "missions" give them the drive and fervour they need to live out their lives; it gives them a sense of (supposedly divine) purpose.

And what I find most troubling about this whole philosophy can be encapsulated in the belief that "if Jesus is not your Lord and Savior, you are on your way to hell" (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/hellreal.htm), or even just the idea that Jesus alone is the way to eternal life. I find this loathsome not only because of how black-and-white it is, but also because this whole doctrine suggests that threat of hell (or no eternal life) is needed for people to follow the teachings of Jesus. How sorry a state is that, that people need the promise of reward or threat of punishment to live a good life?

Moreover, how viable is the threat of "eternal suffering," as your post asks? One thing I could never comprehend as a child was the utter unoriginality of the religious afterlife. You live in this world for a quantifiable amount of time, committing a quantifiable amount of rights and wrongs, and then when you kick the bucket you're committed to eternal suffering or eternal bliss? Putting aside what is meant by "suffering" or "bliss" (because this is a tremendous point of contention; many religious even believe that heaven involves the detachment of soul from identity, so that you live in bliss without having any memory of your life on earth... and to that I say how is that any different from atheism, and the belief that your life ends when you die; if you don't know who you are or were, can it really be said that you're still alive?)... putting this question aside, we're left wondering... well, you're living forever - then what? What in the name of blazes do you do for infinity? Either way, I'd expect you'd have to go mad - a happy delirious if there's a heaven, and a delusional mad if there's a hell - and, in that case, are you not still detached from all previous identity? Don't you eventually lose it? And, if so, haven't you lost who you are; isn't that the same as just pushing up daisies?

For these reasons, I find the reward/punishment system of religious teachings to be a flawed one. As a humanist, I believe in living a good life for the sake of a good life - being good to your neighbour, and being just and honest in all your practices, without expectation of any reward. I don't believe in life after death - all the more reason, I feel, to live this one as best as we can, because everyone around us is just as lost as we are, and the only way to get through it is to get through it together. Mind you, I do acknowledge that there are many religious people who likewise practise goodness without thought of reward or potential punishment. I find these people tremendously worthy of admiration.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, regardless of the definition of "eternal suffering," if we're only doing acts of kindness for fear of punishment or in hopes of reward, how pure can these acts ever truly be?

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. Hugs and love to everyone reading this. And pass a hug along to at least one other person today, eh? It's amazing how even the smallest good deed can make a big difference. Peace, guys.
Thank you, peace to you as well. Good post.
Too bad i didn't see you post on Heikoku's "Come and get me pseudo-christians" thread, it was very interesting.

Faith based on fear of hell-fire or other punishment is no kind of faith at all. Faith is supposed to be putting others over yourself, but when you're only faithful out of some visceral, gut reaction inspired by fear of your own pain, your faith will be superficial at best and self-serving at worst.

Any Christians who are reading these posts, I hope, came to God out of a genuine desire to follow in Jesus' example of helping others.

Living in the Midwest all my life, I've had a dose of "scaring people into Heaven." At Halloween, churches sponsor incredibly graphic and violent haunted houses. At these, the kids inevitably see a storyline that goes something like: a group of 4 kids go on a road trip. Two of them are drunk, including the driver. They all die in an accident and the two that drank get thrown into Hell while the 2 good kids who "fell in with the wrong crowd" go to Heaven.

I even saw one (aptly called "The Nightmare") where a young girl gets hurt in a relationship (after having premartial sex, no less) and kills herself in grief over the breakup. But she doesn't just kill herself. She points a gun to her head, the lights go out, the audience hears a loud report, they feel wet splatters on their faces and when the lights go up, her lifeless body lies on the bed.

Isn't it amazing how these churches can decry Hollywood's evil movies and then sponsor such an incredibly violent scene--and market it to youth groups? All to scare people into salvation.

People who really believe it's their duty to make sure as many people get into Heaven as possible will stop at nothing. It's degrading the lengths they will go to. I can't talk to members of my family today because they believe I'm going to Hell. That's all they want to talk to me about. They can't sleep at night because of it. It's sad. I wish I could tell them I'm not going to Hell, but all the answers they need are in a 2000-year-old book whose word is infinitely more valuable than mine.

I'm convinced the belief in Hell is quite possibly the worst thing going in today's religions. Frankly, if there's to be any unity, Hell's got to go!

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about this, but isn't "outer dark" the official stance of the Catholic Church re: damnation? I vaguely remember this from a Newsweek special issue on "Conceptions of Hell" that I read while waiting for some extrememly painful dental work.