NationStates Jolt Archive

9 + 4 perfectly good reasons why the United States of America is the finest nation on the planet. It's not perfect, nothing is. It's full of flaws, but it's still better than anything anyone else can whip up.
PS: I'm talking about the country, not the Bush administration.

Here goes...

Reason nr.1: Americans in general.

Some people critisize the US government, sure, but some also say they don't like americans in general. That's not ok. That's silly, depressing, foolishness based on ignorance and stupidity. Close your eyes, picture an american. What do you see? A pale fat guy gorging fast food? Guys from Dawsons Creek? Blonds with more silicone than flesh on their bodies?

Delete those images, think of this instead:
A guy called Ezra. He has large curly hair and he sometimes wears a classic indian dress (that's indian as in Asia, not native). He makes leprecauns by filling holes in the ground with cement. He loves his mother which has two dogs that keep shedding their fur.

Is Ezra the typical american? The answer is yes, as much as anyone else. There is no such thing as the typical american. It doesn't exist. I could say something about their openness, selfirony, tolerance or the taxi drivers that sing. But it would be pointless. There is no typical american because the whole "point" behind the USA is that everybody is different from eachother. It's said that america is "all about diversity". They are all indeviduals living widely different lives.

So the next time you meet an american, don't spit on him; it might be Ezra.


Reason nr.2 the others who hate America

The others are bad news. Hussein, the Teheran ayatollahs, Taliban, Kim Jong Il of North Korea, Slobodan Milosevic. Are you with these guys or the US? Answer. Now.


Reason nr.3 Michael Moore

It took an american to make us laugh of all the silly americans. Not a frenchie, or a kraut, or a gook.
It was Michael Moore from Flint, Michigan. With laughter he has awoken a dormant, sort of trendy political and civil awareness. He reminded us that the giants are people too.


Reason nr.4 the constitution

The fourth of July 1776. Members of the continental congress gather in Philadelphia. Thomas Jefferson is there along with John Adams and Benjamin Franklin. It has gone no more than two days since the heads of the nation decided to declare themselves independent from England. Jefferson wrote (don't remember the exact words): "All people a created as equals, they have been given unbreakable right from their maker. Among these are the rights for life, freedom and the right to seek fortune."

This is the foundation of a genuine american government and way of life. Where all men are equal under God, all have equal rights for property and freedom (this isn't communism though, if you want something, WORK for it).

The job given to the state is to secure these rights. If it's not doing its job, the people can get a new state, a new government.


Reason nr.4b the states

Eleven years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence comes the Union Bill (or somesuch) declaring that the states and the union will share the power. The equal organs of government will balance eachother: The Congress, the Supreme Court and the President of the United States of America.
And it was by copying the United States that the western world became what it is today.


Reason nr.5 the Marshall-aid

Please don't tell me that you don't know what this is...
It was suggested in 1947, by George Marshall that the US start a program to help rebuild Europe. An economic crisis had to be averted to prevent Eurpoe from falling into the clammy hands of the Soviet Union. The Marshall-aid became the ikon of foreign-aid.


Reason nr.6 Antirascism

Europe doesn't like to admit it, but in the fight agains rascism, the US is way ahead of us. Can you imagine a black minister of foreign-affairs in England? Or Norway? Two of the most powerful people in the Bush-administration are black. One of them is even a woman.


Reason nr.7 "It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. And that government of the people... for the people... by the people... shall not perish from this earth."

A strange, clumsy guy with long arms and legs, a full beard and a penetrating voice. This man is, on the 19th of november 1863 standing on the national cemetery of Gettysburg, Pensylvania. A great battle had been fought, and there was Abraham Lincoln, the man who thought slavery was wrong.
Raised in Kentucky, no official education, he studied law alone and made himself a name as an Illinois attorney. He enters politics, he claims slavery is wrong. He becomes president, the south withdraw from the union. The civil war has started.

Halfway through the war he is at Gettysburg giving a speech. There was another man there, Edward Everett, believed to be the best speaker in the state. Everett spoke for almost two hours before Lincoln had his turn. Lincoln spoke for under two minutes. Does anyone remember Everetts speech?

Two years later he was assasinated in a DC. theater.


Reason nr.8 the country

After only one century, the nation was a model after which all other nations were built. Gotta love that.


Reason nr.9 Woody Allen

I rightly don't know why I added this twit. This little goof with glasses. Why should such a helpless faggot be on this list? Maybe to remind you that he is an american too. He's not a powerful cowboy or a tv-tough-guy. He not one of those who talk loudely or one of the white-trash housewives on Oprah. Hell, he's never even been on "Friends". The "Woody Allens". They're everywhere. They are plentyful and dorky. You see them in the university or on the street, walking in circles, going nowhere in particular. They look like Woody Allen, all ready to jump off as sperm nr.3. They look like a russian wuss and bittersweet little figurines full of parody, slapstick, filosophy, trivial nothings and the bigger questions.


Reasons given by citizens of the United States of America:

1. After 225 years, the nation still has that "new-country-smell".

2. Some of their finest presidents were americans. *clever smile*

3. None of their current or previous leaders live in caves.

4. If anyone ever teaches a monkey to drive, it'll probably be an american.

Reason nr.2 the others who hate America
The others are bad news. Hussein, the Teheran ayatollahs, Taliban, Kim Jong Il of North Korea, Slobodan Milosevic. Are you with these guys or the US? Answer. Now.


If I'm not "with" the US, I'm automatically "with" "these guys"?

Reason nr.6 Antirascism
Europe doesn't like to admit it, but in the fight agains rascism, the US is way ahead of us. Can you imagine a black minister of foreign-affairs in England? Or Norway? Two of the most powerful people in the Bush-administration are black. One of them is even a woman.


And you think that there are no black men or women in the British Government?

Until recently, the Home Secretary was a blind man. I guess that makes the UK ahead in fighting discrimination against the disabled.

Most of those are ok, but defending race relations within america is pushing it a bit. Sure they had their 'everyone is equal' speal, but how long until everyone actually was? When did Rosa parks do her bit on the bus? 50 years ago? I don't agree with the 'If I'm not with the US, I must be with all these other people who aren't with the US either' bit.

Reason nr.6 Antirascism

Europe doesn't like to admit it, but in the fight agains rascism, the US is way ahead of us. Can you imagine a black minister of foreign-affairs in England? Or Norway? Two of the most powerful people in the Bush-administration are black. One of them is even a woman.
Errmm... right... you do realise that the US passed laws against the Jews Pre-WWI, and they only gave blacks the vote in the 1960s. Britain (I dont know about the other european counties, but I suspect the same) never passed segregation laws since slavery was abolished in the Empire, some decades before the US abolished it. There are only black people in the US presidential advisor cadre because you dont vote for them, they are appointed. There wont be a black US President for decades to come at least. On a similar note, there has never been a female or Jewish US president *points to Margret Thatcher and Benjamin Disraeli*.

bla bla bla my country ba bla bla racism bla bla bla.
This post is a joke right?

"Reason nr.8 the country

After only one century, the nation was a model after which all other nations were built. Gotta love that."

Errr... no.

"Reason nr.2 the others who hate America

The others are bad news. Hussein, the Teheran ayatollahs, Taliban, Kim Jong Il of North Korea, Slobodan Milosevic. Are you with these guys or the US? Answer. Now."

I also don't buy into this "You either support our made up enemy and hate us or you love us and support everything we do and hate them" It isnt as simple as that.

9 + 4 perfectly good reasons why the United States of America is the finest nation on the planet. It's not perfect, nothing is. It's full of flaws, but it's still better than anything anyone else can whip up.
PS: I'm talking about the country, not the Bush administration.


I think you just summed up why everyone hates America. They think they are better than everyone else.


Reason nr.1: Americans in general.

Some people critisize the US government, sure, but some also say they don't like americans in general. That's not ok. That's silly, depressing, foolishness based on ignorance and stupidity. Close your eyes, picture an american. What do you see? A pale fat guy gorging fast food? Guys from Dawsons Creek? Blonds with more silicone than flesh on their bodies?

Delete those images, think of this instead:
A guy called Ezra. He has large curly hair and he sometimes wears a classic indian dress (that's indian as in Asia, not native). He makes leprecauns by filling holes in the ground with cement. He loves his mother which has two dogs that keep shedding their fur.

Is Ezra the typical american? The answer is yes, as much as anyone else. There is no such thing as the typical american. It doesn't exist. I could say something about their openness, selfirony, tolerance or the taxi drivers that sing. But it would be pointless. There is no typical american because the whole "point" behind the USA is that everybody is different from eachother. It's said that america is "all about diversity". They are all indeviduals living widely different lives.

Typical American's are also increadably ignorent of the rest of the world. My Sociology teacher was on holiday in America once and when talking to two American guys in a lift, neither of them knew where Europe was or where Ireland was. And its not just an isolated case.

http://www.watchingyou.com/stupidamericans.html

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/358DB587-E977-4CBA-BEC9-84957169B63B.htm

http://www.amerispan.com/travel/Article_Detail.asp?Article_ID=140

http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200109/msg00385.html


Reason nr.2 the others who hate America

The others are bad news. Hussein, the Teheran ayatollahs, Taliban, Kim Jong Il of North Korea, Slobodan Milosevic. Are you with these guys or the US? Answer. Now..

Just looking at North Korea for a moment. Why do they hate you? Because you view their ideology as stupid and evil and have done everything you can to leave them powerless. America is stomping round the world making sure no one can have nuclear weapons desipte the fact it has them itself. Wouldn't it be much safer to simpley begin disarming slowly yourself, making everyone else feal at ease.


Reason nr.3 Michael Moore

It took an american to make us laugh of all the silly americans. Not a frenchie, or a kraut, or a gook.
It was Michael Moore from Flint, Michigan. With laughter he has awoken a dormant, sort of trendy political and civil awareness. He reminded us that the giants are people too.


We in Britain have been laughing at you for a long time. Its just being American, you were ignorent of everyone else execept your own satirists. Al Murry, the Pub landlord "Ah, the American dream. You know why Britain hasn't got a dream? Because Britain's awake! Thats why"

Reason nr.4 the constitution

The fourth of July 1776. Members of the continental congress gather in Philadelphia. Thomas Jefferson is there along with John Adams and Benjamin Franklin. It has gone no more than two days since the heads of the nation decided to declare themselves independent from England. Jefferson wrote (don't remember the exact words): "All people a created as equals, they have been given unbreakable right from their maker. Among these are the rights for life, freedom and the right to seek fortune."

This is the foundation of a genuine american government and way of life. Where all men are equal under God, all have equal rights for property and freedom (this isn't communism though, if you want something, WORK for it).

The job given to the state is to secure these rights. If it's not doing its job, the people can get a new state, a new government.

And you think this is special why? You know there are a lot of other countries which have just as democratic (often more so) system than you (Switzerland is one example of a more democratic country than America)


Reason nr.4b the states

Eleven years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence comes the Union Bill (or somesuch) declaring that the states and the union will share the power. The equal organs of government will balance eachother: The Congress, the Supreme Court and the President of the United States of America.
And it was by copying the United States that the western world became what it is today..

The House of Commons, the house of Lords, the Monarchy and the Judicary. Quoting organs of government and claiming them to be supiror is not impressive

Reason nr.5 the Marshall-aid

Please don't tell me that you don't know what this is...
It was suggested in 1947, by George Marshall that the US start a program to help rebuild Europe. An economic crisis had to be averted to prevent Eurpoe from falling into the clammy hands of the Soviet Union. The Marshall-aid became the ikon of foreign-aid.

Had you been in range of German bombers and had half your continent under Soviet rule you would of needed economic help as well. Please dont make yourself out to be good because of your situation.


Reason nr.6 Antirascism

Europe doesn't like to admit it, but in the fight agains rascism, the US is way ahead of us. Can you imagine a black minister of foreign-affairs in England? Or Norway? Two of the most powerful people in the Bush-administration are black. One of them is even a woman.

*Ahem*

Vigalante hunting of Mexiacan's ring any bells. Why exactly should a contry be judged on how anti raceist it is by the number of minority members in it's government. That to me shows signs of positive discrimination, the fact that you proclaim that as a triumph. Also the reason we may have more problems with raceism is that Europe is a lot less geographicly isolated than America.


Reason nr.7 "It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. And that government of the people... for the people... by the people... shall not perish from this earth."

A strange, clumsy guy with long arms and legs, a full beard and a penetrating voice. This man is, on the 19th of november 1863 standing on the national cemetery of Gettysburg, Pensylvania. A great battle had been fought, and there was Abraham Lincoln, the man who thought slavery was wrong.
Raised in Kentucky, no official education, he studied law alone and made himself a name as an Illinois attorney. He enters politics, he claims slavery is wrong. He becomes president, the south withdraw from the union. The civil war has started..

Halfway through the war he is at Gettysburg giving a speech. There was another man there, Edward Everett, believed to be the best speaker in the state. Everett spoke for almost two hours before Lincoln had his turn. Lincoln spoke for under two minutes. Does anyone remember Everetts speech?

Two years later he was assasinated in a DC. theater.
.

Tsar Alexander II freed more slaves than Abrabham Lincon, and much earlier too.


Reason nr.8 the country

After only one century, the nation was a model after which all other nations were built. Gotta love that.


Ok, this is why we hate your country. You think that you are the model for everyone else NEWSFLASH. Your democracy was based on British democracy and your language is English and your primary ethnic group decends from European immigrants. If any one aspires to anything then its Europe (I dont believe they do though. I believe that frankly the rest of the world would like America and Europe to be keeping out of their business and let them develop their own way). Europe built America, so dont go saying you built everyone else and that makes you better because by that logic Europe is better than you.

Reason nr.9 Woody Allen

I rightly don't know why I added this twit. This little goof with glasses. Why should such a helpless faggot be on this list? Maybe to remind you that he is an american too. He's not a powerful cowboy or a tv-tough-guy. He not one of those who talk loudely or one of the white-trash housewives on Oprah. Hell, he's never even been on "Friends". The "Woody Allens". They're everywhere. They are plentyful and dorky. You see them in the university or on the street, walking in circles, going nowhere in particular. They look like Woody Allen, all ready to jump off as sperm nr.3. They look like a russian wuss and bittersweet little figurines full of parody, slapstick, filosophy, trivial nothings and the bigger questions.

And? What exactly is special about that. There are people like this everywhere.


Reasons given by citizens of the United States of America:

1. After 225 years, the nation still has that "new-country-smell".


Yes, 225 years is a long time for a countries existance. Compared to say Europe and China who have been established civilised and developed countries/continents for, oh say 5 or 6 millienia. America is just an enthusiastic upstart.


2. Some of their finest presidents were americans. *clever smile*


(Sarcastic tone of voice) "Ha ha". Not if you take their liniages into account. Since you have had no native Amerian presidents if anything all your presidents were European


3. None of their current or previous leaders live in caves.


Very mature. Maybe its because you blew up their houses.


4. If anyone ever teaches a monkey to drive, it'll probably be an american.

And you are proud of that why?

9 + 4 perfectly good reasons why the United States of America is the finest nation on the planet. It's not perfect, nothing is. It's full of flaws, but it's still better than anything anyone else can whip up.
PS: I'm talking about the country, not the Bush administration.

Here goes...

Now if you said great or fine I wouldn't do this but finest. Here we go.

Reason nr.1: Americans in general.

Some people critisize the US government, sure, but some also say they don't like americans in general. That's not ok. That's silly, depressing, foolishness based on ignorance and stupidity. Close your eyes, picture an american. What do you see? A pale fat guy gorging fast food? Guys from Dawsons Creek? Blonds with more silicone than flesh on their bodies?

Delete those images, think of this instead:
A guy called Ezra. He has large curly hair and he sometimes wears a classic indian dress (that's indian as in Asia, not native). He makes leprecauns by filling holes in the ground with cement. He loves his mother which has two dogs that keep shedding their fur.

Is Ezra the typical american? The answer is yes, as much as anyone else. There is no such thing as the typical american. It doesn't exist. I could say something about their openness, selfirony, tolerance or the taxi drivers that sing. But it would be pointless. There is no typical american because the whole "point" behind the USA is that everybody is different from eachother. It's said that america is "all about diversity". They are all indeviduals living widely different lives.

So the next time you meet an american, don't spit on him; it might be Ezra.

There are nicer people(in general) then americans.


Reason nr.2 the others who hate America

The others are bad news. Hussein, the Teheran ayatollahs, Taliban, Kim Jong Il of North Korea, Slobodan Milosevic. Are you with these guys or the US? Answer. Now.

The others who hated the USSR

the ithes are bad news. Hitler, Mussolini, Franco. Are you with these guys or the USSR?
Answer. Now.


Reason nr.3 Michael Moore

It took an american to make us laugh of all the silly americans. Not a frenchie, or a kraut, or a gook.
It was Michael Moore from Flint, Michigan. With laughter he has awoken a dormant, sort of trendy political and civil awareness. He reminded us that the giants are people too.

He's ok but theres better from other countries I'm sure (remeber you said finest)

Reason nr.4 the constitution

The fourth of July 1776. Members of the continental congress gather in Philadelphia. Thomas Jefferson is there along with John Adams and Benjamin Franklin. It has gone no more than two days since the heads of the nation decided to declare themselves independent from England. Jefferson wrote (don't remember the exact words): "All people a created as equals, they have been given unbreakable right from their maker. Among these are the rights for life, freedom and the right to seek fortune."

This is the foundation of a genuine american government and way of life. Where all men are equal under God, all have equal rights for property and freedom (this isn't communism though, if you want something, WORK for it).

The job given to the state is to secure these rights. If it's not doing its job, the people can get a new state, a new government.

I do agree with gun ownership it protects that.

Reason nr.4b the states

Eleven years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence comes the Union Bill (or somesuch) declaring that the states and the union will share the power. The equal organs of government will balance eachother: The Congress, the Supreme Court and the President of the United States of America.
And it was by copying the United States that the western world became what it is today.

Name a few that copyed the US?

Reason nr.5 the Marshall-aid

Please don't tell me that you don't know what this is...
It was suggested in 1947, by George Marshall that the US start a program to help rebuild Europe. An economic crisis had to be averted to prevent Eurpoe from falling into the clammy hands of the Soviet Union. The Marshall-aid became the ikon of foreign-aid.

that was nice of you thanks


Reason nr.6 Antirascism

Europe doesn't like to admit it, but in the fight agains rascism, the US is way ahead of us. Can you imagine a black minister of foreign-affairs in England? Or Norway? Two of the most powerful people in the Bush-administration are black. One of them is even a woman.

Yes I can imagine that easily, the only reson that there isn't is because there are more black people in america then in europe. Tell me can you imagine an arab in any important position in the US?


Reason nr.7

Yay a history lesson!


Reason nr.8 the country

After only one century, the nation was a model after which all other nations were built. Gotta love that.

Again, Name a few!


Reason nr.9 Woody Allen

I rightly don't know why I added this twit. This little goof with glasses. Why should such a helpless faggot be on this list? Maybe to remind you that he is an american too. He's not a powerful cowboy or a tv-tough-guy. He not one of those who talk loudely or one of the white-trash housewives on Oprah. Hell, he's never even been on "Friends". The "Woody Allens". They're everywhere. They are plentyful and dorky. You see them in the university or on the street, walking in circles, going nowhere in particular. They look like Woody Allen, all ready to jump off as sperm nr.3. They look like a russian wuss and bittersweet little figurines full of parody, slapstick, filosophy, trivial nothings and the bigger questions.

Yeah you make some of the best films

Reasons given by citizens of the United States of America:

1. After 225 years, the nation still has that "new-country-smell".

2. Some of their finest presidents were americans. *clever smile*

3. None of their current or previous leaders live in caves.

4. If anyone ever teaches a monkey to drive, it'll probably be an american.?? Ok? So, Americans said that did they?

Verythankyou Neo Cannen. You destroyed his entire progapana-induced argument.

I have nothing against Americans, but I really dont like the nation all that much.

Here goes...

Reason nr.1: Americans in general.


I agree - many americans are good people. I have many friends in the states. However, far too many americans have an overly patriotic, even nationalistic fervour that I'm not comfortable with. Your first paragraph displays some of those features.


Reason nr.2 the others who hate America

The others are bad news. Hussein, the Teheran ayatollahs, Taliban, Kim Jong Il of North Korea, Slobodan Milosevic. Are you with these guys or the US? Answer. Now.


This is flawed. Hussein and the Taliban were supported by the US for quite some time. Milosevic didn't have anything particularly against the US, as far as I know.

How about Lula of Brazil, Chavez of Venezuela, Schroeder of Germany, or Chirac of France, to name a few?

And do you really want a list of odious leaders who have supported the US?


Reason nr.3 Michael Moore

Agreed. There need to be more people like him on the left side of the political spectrum, or fewer on the right, to achieve some sort of a balance.

Reason nr.4 the constitution

Agreed, although you seem to be mixing up the Declaration of Independence (1776) and the Constitution (1789).

Reason nr.4b the states

And it was by copying the United States that the western world became what it is today.

*Shrug*. I don't think the comment that the western world has copied the US is supportable though.


Reason nr.5 the Marshall-aid

Please don't tell me that you don't know what this is...
It was suggested in 1947, by George Marshall that the US start a program to help rebuild Europe. An economic crisis had to be averted to prevent Eurpoe from falling into the clammy hands of the Soviet Union. The Marshall-aid became the ikon of foreign-aid.


The US was not really being altruistic with the Marshall plan, just foresighted. Viable foreign markets were always going to be vital for growth of both US and world economies.


Reason nr.6 Antirascism

Europe doesn't like to admit it, but in the fight agains rascism, the US is way ahead of us. Can you imagine a black minister of foreign-affairs in England? Or Norway? Two of the most powerful people in the Bush-administration are black. One of them is even a woman.

Does this mean the Phillippines, Pakistan, India, Haiti, Rwanda, Indonesia, Argentina, Sri Lanka, Israel, and New Zealand are ahead of the US in women's rights (among many others - a full list can be found here (http://womenshistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa010128a.htm)).

Ok, I'll give you New Zealand.


Reason nr.7 "It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. And that government of the people... for the people... by the people... shall not perish from this earth."

A strange, clumsy guy with long arms and legs, a full beard and a penetrating voice. This man is, on the 19th of november 1863 standing on the national cemetery of Gettysburg, Pensylvania. A great battle had been fought, and there was Abraham Lincoln, the man who thought slavery was wrong.
Raised in Kentucky, no official education, he studied law alone and made himself a name as an Illinois attorney. He enters politics, he claims slavery is wrong. He becomes president, the south withdraw from the union. The civil war has started.

Halfway through the war he is at Gettysburg giving a speech. There was another man there, Edward Everett, believed to be the best speaker in the state. Everett spoke for almost two hours before Lincoln had his turn. Lincoln spoke for under two minutes. Does anyone remember Everetts speech?

Two years later he was assasinated in a DC. theater.


I've long thought he's one of the most overrated leaders in US history. He precipitated a war which generated more US casualties than every conflict until the Vietnam war put together. Over what? Over the right of the souther states to secede. Surely there were other ways.

Slavery, if you look deeper into the issue, was just an excuse - not even as pivotal as "Weapons of Mass Destruction".

There are several presidents I respect and think did good work. He isn't one of them though.


Reason nr.8 the country

After only one century, the nation was a model after which all other nations were built. Gotta love that.


That's a very wide-sweeping claim, and is unsupported by the facts.


Reason nr.9 Woody Allen


I agree, although I don't see why you vilified him in your description.


I would have included:
- the wilderness areas. The scenery of the american west is my favourite, bar none.

- Austin, Texas. A hotbed of liberalism in a place as conservative as Texas makes it a fantastic place to live.

- The American work ethic

Not a frenchie, or a kraut, or a gook.

Reason nr.6 Antirascism

Anyone else see irony here?

Anyone else see irony here?

Nope, I don't see a single flaw in his argument whatsoever. :rolleyes:

And you think that there are no black men or women in the British Government?

Until recently, the Home Secretary was a blind man. I guess that makes the UK ahead in fighting discrimination against the disabled.

Aaaaaaah , but blindness didn't stop him having mucky rudies with a married women. A heartless money grabbing low life scum bag slut but still a married women. Go on son, shame he stepped down, thought the guy waqs great.

The guy that started this thread has major issues. I think he may have a white hood, but no crosses as he has burnt them all.

Does this mean the Phillippines, Pakistan, India, Haiti, Rwanda, Indonesia, Argentina, Sri Lanka, Israel, and New Zealand are ahead of the US in women's rights (among many others - a full list can be found here (http://womenshistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa010128a.htm)).

Ok, I'll give you New Zealand.



First country to give women the vote was...

First country to give women the vote was...
Australia. Well... New Zealand was lishglty ahead, but Aus also gave them the right to stand for parliament.

Anyone else see irony here?
What is this "irony" you speak of?
It sounds anti-American.
You a commie or sumthin'?

:D

Ack! I noticed that at the last minute. See my editted post.

What is this "irony" you speak of?
It sounds anti-American.
You a commie or sumthin'?

:D

No, no, it's "You a frenchie or sumthin'?"

Geez. You're so 1980's. ;)

No, New Zealand actually. :)

That was my point :p


Kate Shepard is on the $10 note for her work to make it happen, heh.

9 + 4 perfectly good reasons why the United States of America is the finest nation on the planet. It's not perfect, nothing is. It's full of flaws, but it's still better than anything anyone else can whip up.
PS: I'm talking about the country, not the Bush administration.

Here goes...

Reason nr.1: Americans in general.

Some people critisize the US government, sure, but some also say they don't like americans in general. That's not ok. That's silly, depressing, foolishness based on ignorance and stupidity. Close your eyes, picture an american. What do you see? A pale fat guy gorging fast food? Guys from Dawsons Creek? Blonds with more silicone than flesh on their bodies?

Delete those images, think of this instead:
-snip longwinded description-
So the next time you meet an american, don't spit on him; it might be Ezra.


Reason nr.2 the others who hate America

The others are bad news. Hussein, the Teheran ayatollahs, Taliban, Kim Jong Il of North Korea, Slobodan Milosevic. Are you with these guys or the US? Answer. Now.


Nice way to skip over a point. "Some people *cough*don't like the American government*cough* but most people really hate America because they're either religious extremists or because of an unrealistic idea of what the "typical American" is.

First country to give women the vote was...

The Insignificance of Monkeypimp?

Oh, I guess you mean NZ. I actually saw a doco recently that talked about the problems men were having in business there because of the predominance of women in senior roles. Too funny.

That was my point :p


Kate Shepard is on the $10 note for her work to make it happen, heh.


Ah, Prae was too slow to change his post :p

But yeah. Yay New Zealand!

America didn't really do anything first, it's just militarily powerful and so its citizens think it did.

America didn't really do anything first, it's just militarily powerful and so its citizens think it did.

To be fair, that's not really true either. People in the US have done some pretty impressive things in many areas. Think Edison, the Wright brothers, much of the computer industry, and so on. The US government as a nation has a rather less spectacular record though.

9 + 4 perfectly good reasons why the United States of America is the finest nation on the planet. It's not perfect, nothing is. It's full of flaws, but it's still better than anything anyone else can whip up.
PS: I'm talking about the country, not the Bush administration.


Okay, there was reason #1 to dislike America: their general self-importance.

Reason nr.1: Americans in general.

- I don't dislike all Americans. No one save for true fanatics hate all Americans. Unfortunately, to the outside world, there seems to be a majority of white, fat, lazy, ignorant, gun-toting, bible-thumping rednecks. This sort of people tends to get on people's nerves. Of course all Americans aren't like that, but that's what the world sees.

Reason nr.2 the others who hate America

- Guilt by association. Irrelevant argument.

Reason nr.3 Michael Moore

- Many non-Americans have criticized America in more or less humorous ways, but none of them get any attention in the states because, guess what, they're not American. Also, there is naturally more credibility in a person who actually lives there and experiences it.

Reason nr.4 the constitution

Reason nr.4b the states

Reason nr.5 the Marshall-aid

- Historical curiosa that has no application to the world today. All nations have their own history and periods of varying relationships with other nations. The state of the world today is what's relevant for this argument.

Reason nr.6 Antirascism

- Guess what? There are countries in the world that actually have a WOMAN as President/Prime Minister/etc. Golly.

In case you haven't noticed it, there is still a lot of discrimination and discrimination in the US. Not only based on ethnicity, but also religion and, of course, sexual preference. Many European countries are far ahead of the US on this front.

Reason nr.7 "It is rather for us to be here dedicated..."

- More historical curiosa.

Reason nr.8 the country

-You claim here that other nations were built as a model to the US. No. Just, no.

Reason nr.9 Woody Allen

- "And the award for most pointless argument goes to..."

The last four "reasons" I won't even dignify with a response.

Again, as others have said, we don't hate Americans, we dislike the fact that you, as you demonstrate here, believe yourselves to be better than the rest of the world. To most Americans there is only the US and "foreign countries". You cite lots of history and think it makes America special, but many other countries have a LOT more history, if you could be bothered to read about it. Heck, most Americans don't even know their OWN history (ie misconceptions about WWII etc.

Your nation is not best in the world. No nation is. Get over it.
[/Rant]

America didn't really do anything first, it's just militarily powerful and so its citizens think it did.

It was the first Country to make me believe in cowboys.

To be fair, that's not really true either. People in the US have done some pretty impressive things in many areas. Think Edison, the Wright brothers, much of the computer industry, and so on. The US government as a nation has a rather less spectacular record though.
The computer was largely a British and German invention, as was the internet. America was just the only one rich enough to develop it. Meh.

The computer was largely a British and German invention, as was the internet. America was just the only one rich enough to develop it. Meh.

That is certainly true. It doesn't diminish the accomplishments of the many people that made great progress in the area though.

(Heavily edited for space)
Reason nr.1: Americans in general.
pale fat guy gorging fast food? Guys from Dawsons Creek? Blonds with more silicone than flesh on their bodies?
A guy called Ezra.
Is Ezra the typical american? The answer is yes, as much as anyone else.
So the next time you meet an american, don't spit on him; it might be Ezra.

One slightly dumb guy that does nothing useful is the best counter argument that you have against the three examples you cite? Not the best of arguments.
I don't hate americans who have some respect for others anyway.

Reason nr.2 the others who hate America

The others are bad news. Hussein, the Teheran ayatollahs, Taliban, Kim Jong Il of North Korea, Slobodan Milosevic. Are you with these guys or the US? Answer. Now.

Neither.


Reason nr.3 Michael Moore

It took an american to make us laugh of all the silly americans. Not a frenchie, or a kraut, or a gook.
It was Michael Moore from Flint, Michigan. With laughter he has awoken a dormant, sort of trendy political and civil awareness. He reminded us that the giants are people too.

MM is the archetypal american the rest of the world loves to hate. Arrogant, insensitive and hypocritical. No better than Bush.


Reason nr.4 the constitution
And the blind devotion to a piece of paper with a few outdated rules.


Reason nr.4b the states
Divide the power equally and get nothing done at all. The western world has not copied the US. Study some history of non US countries please.


Reason nr.5 the Marshall-aid
Reason number 2 then. About 50 years ago, but it was appreciated. It did mean however that the aggressor in WWII actually benefitted, in the long run, from its actions.


Reason nr.6 Antirascism

Europe doesn't like to admit it, but in the fight agains rascism, the US is way ahead of us. Can you imagine a black minister of foreign-affairs in England? Or Norway? Two of the most powerful people in the Bush-administration are black. One of them is even a woman.

Racism is still prevalent in the streets. Bush appointing a couple of token individuals does not stop this. Oh, and the rest of the world is not just Europe.


Reason nr.7 Lincoln spoke for under two minutes. Does anyone remember Everetts speech?

Two years later he was assasinated in a DC. theater.

His assasination is a reason to be proud of America? Seriously, good public orators have existed in almost all countries. Churchill, being as good an example as any.


Reason nr.8 the country

After only one century, the nation was a model after which all other nations were built. Gotta love that.
No it was not, and the belief that it was is one of the fundamental reasons for the dislike of the USA


Reason nr.9 Woody Allen

The possibility of the little man succeeding may be one of the few good things about the USA, but you could have found a better example, and it is not exclusive to the USA.




Reasons given by citizens of the United States of America:

1. After 225 years, the nation still has that "new-country-smell".

2. Some of their finest presidents were americans. *clever smile*

3. None of their current or previous leaders live in caves.

4. If anyone ever teaches a monkey to drive, it'll probably be an american.

No comment really needed for these.

It was the first Country to make me believe in cowboys.

But the Gaúchos in South America were there first.

I'm an American I and agree with very little this post has to say. Don't listen to him. Some of us in the USA actually know our own history as well as that of the rest of the world. Hes just a flag waving kook who doesn't know what he is talking about.

It is to be hoped the original post was very much tongue in cheek. Hilarious though

Yet another reply:

Reason nr.1: Americans in general.

Yes there are some nice people in America, but for every nice one theres a bunch of ill educated greedy biggots.


Reason nr.2 the others who hate America

Theres a huge proportion of Europeans who hate America with a vengance. I doubt most of them support any of the regimes in your list. I guess you have believed your media too much.


Reason nr.3 Michael Moore

Michael More - we have hundreds of people like him in our media, Mark Thomas for example here in the UK is far more researched, funny and controversial in his material. The difference is we are allowed to criticise our cultures without death threats, being called traitors etc, its called freedom of speech.


Reason nr.4 the constitution

OK, you win over the UK on that one, but your'e loosing yours at the hands of the NeoCons, plus just because you have a good one, it doesn't mean it is used correctly, it isnt, otherwise why was the arpathied in the US untill recently?


Reason nr.4b the states

???? That would be like saying that our Kindoms made our union so great. Meaningless!!!


Reason nr.5 the Marshall-aid

So, you sit back utill the last minute profiteering from the Nazis (google Prescott Bush or 'Hitlers Angel) and then come into the war, yes you have bought us, clever you.


Reason nr.6 Antirascism

This is just so laughable. America has to be one of the more racist countries on this earth. Your cities are divided into different enclaves, ours tend to be more mixed. BTW the first black member of parliament in the UK? Dadabhai Nairoji, when? 1892!!!!!! Isolated case? Three more followed before the 1900s. I think it was more than fifty years before black people where even allowed to sit next to whites on busses.


Reason nr.7 "It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. And that government of the people... for the people... by the people... shall not perish from this earth."

Just hollow words, So what? Read the Magna Carta.


Reason nr.8 the country

The UK wasn't, and yours was built on a combination of the UK and France's democratic model.


Reason nr.9 Woody Allen

I love him, without your homophobic racist biggoted Amercan take on him.

Shall we just agree that the original post was a biased piece of writing, littered with logical fallacies, and leave it at that?

Come on give the Americans a break. They can be proud of their nation, but I accept they do make huge claims about what they have done without supporting facts.
Oh and Marshal aid, the Uk did not receive any because it was with held becasue we had the cheek to vote in a left wing government. Sorry America we will stop being democratic so we don't upset your sensibilities. If you would care to narrow the political spectrum right down to a narrow right of centre band I'm sure the rest of the world will follow.

I would have thought it better to show just how strong the feelings against the original post are within America, and outside. And to show the differing views on why.

Shall we just agree that the original post was a biased piece of writing, littered with logical fallacies, and leave it at that?
agreed

Come on give the Americans a break. They can be proud of their nation, but I accept they do make huge claims about what they have done without supporting facts.
Indeed they can, but I wish they'd stop claiming their version of things is better / more original that that of others, when it is obviously not.

Oh and Marshal aid, the Uk did not receive any because it was with held becasue we had the cheek to vote in a left wing government. Sorry America we will stop being democratic so we don't upset your sensibilities. If you would care to narrow the political spectrum right down to a narrow right of centre band I'm sure the rest of the world will follow.
The US withheld Marshall aid to bankrupt Britain and in doing so destroy the British Empire. They succeeded.

Indeed they can, but I wish they'd stop claiming their version of things is better / more original that that of others, when it is obviously not.


The US withheld Marshall aid to bankrupt Britain and in doing so destroy the British Empire. They succeeded.
yep great mates they were, took the jet engine, radar, our supersonic research etc..

Shall we just agree that the original post was a biased piece of writing, littered with logical fallacies, and leave it at that?

Oh, okay. But disillusioning delusional dimwits is just so much fun! Just like alliteration. :)

Oh, okay. But disillusioning delusional dimwits is just so much fun! Just like alliteration. :)

I must admit, it is jolly good fun.

1: If the majority are like Ezna, then how come the majority of your nation voted for Bush? How come the states that voted for Bush did so because of their ridiculous religious beliefs, and how come the same states that fought to retain slavery all voted for Bush?

2: What an idiotic point. I can only speak for my own country here, but I know most people I know in Ireland are pretty sick of America now. I think the rest of the world probably is too. Take the French for example, you really shiat on them. Doesn't mean we hate America though.

3: Yeah. Crap. You're right. You have a liberal political commentator. I was so wrong about your country. Sorry.

4: France did it first.

4b: What the heck are you talking about? No other country I know has states in the fashion America does. And I'm not aware of any country with a political structure the same as America's.

5: Yeah... I remember that well. When Europe was up for auction and the Soviets actually had a chance to take posession of us because of our economic crisis. Yeah that was it. Thanks.

6: The reason Norways doesn't have a black foreign-minister is that there aren't any black people in Norway, maybe a hundred thousand or so at most. You might as well question why there aren't many black politicians in Japan. America happens to have a much larger black population than other western countries. And I might remind you that you have yet to have a female even run for president, while England has already had a female Prime-Minister, and Ireland has had female presidents for nearly two decades now.

7: What is your point? A regular guy changed the course of politics? You honestly believe that is unusual? (Michael Collins in Ireland, Adolf Hitler in Germany are examples)

8: I once again don't see your point. Do you think no countries had governments or democracies before America did it? Most existed centruries before America was even discovered. It's common knowledge that it was the French revolution which first set forth the principles of equality and freedom.

9: The main reason I like America is becuase of it's musicians, etc. But every country has entertainers.

Fair enough, defend America from everyone saying it's a disgrace. But there's no reason to go around declaring it's the freaking best thing in the universe. There are a LOT of problems with America. Great country, but a lot of problems.

Look, it's rather stupid to hate an ENTIRE NATION as a result of what 1) one of its moronic citizens posted on an internet message board, and 2) the actions of its government. I don't hate the ENTIRE NATION of Saudi Arabia just because the hijackers were all from there, nor do I hate all Moslems just because there are some religious extremists. I hate some people for their choice in actions and words. To hate America because you feel that, in general, its people are nationalists and arrogant is to be rather nationalist and arrogant yourself. All nations have over-patriotic, arrogant people, not just America. It's just that in America, more of them have access to the internet and more free time on their hands. Give us a break.

I dont hate America. I intensely dislike the Bush administration and idiot nationalists who thing America is the pinacle of civlisation. I know and like many Americans, even a lot of Republicans, but the kind of person who posts these things I dont particularly like.

I don't think anyone in this thread said they hated all of America, yet anyway.

Reason nr.1: Americans in general.

America is probably the most culturally, ethnically, lifestylee and economically (in terms of the various levels of economic power of its citizens) diverse nations on the planet. The fact that there are quite a lot of kooks in america is one logical follow-on from US insistence on individuality. The fact that there are a huge number of ignorant, selfcentred, selfish citizens in america is another.

So the next time you meet an american, don't spit on him; it might be Ezra.

In Europe we're taught to be tolerant of foreigners, to ask questions first and shoot later.

Reason nr.2 the others who hate America


Pardon? If I criticise america, I'm a fan of saddam hussein? I hear that the Taliban thought murder and heroin are bad things. So are you with the Taliban? huh? Answer now.

Reason nr.3 Michael Moore I think America discovered Michael Moore around the time of bowling for columbine, when was that 2001? In 1994 and 1995 he was making programs about the US for British TV because american TV wouldn't give him any airtime. I remember one particular program (the series was called Michael Moore's TV Nation) that made an impression on me. He went around somewhere middle-sized, not backwoodsy or metropolitan, to ask people about working in the land of the free. Not a single person who was working in a shop, store, gas station, drive thru etc would talk to him. They all said they weren't allowed. Made me think.



Reason nr.4 the constitution All men are created equal, except the black ones. Do you think that there weren't any representative democracies before 1776? Really?


Reason nr.4b the states
...
The equal organs of government will balance eachother
...
And it was by copying the United States that the western world became what it is today.

OK, you *do* think that the US invented parliamentary democracy. Bless. It didn't. Nor did it invent multiple-house democracy. Look it up.


Reason nr.5 the Marshall-aid

Prevent europe from falling into the hands of the soviets? if that's what the marshall plan was trying to do, it failed (east germany, poland, hungary, romania...) Notwithstanding, thanks for the cash, USA.


Reason nr.6 Antirascism

yeah, americans just love malcolm x and mlk don't they? Why didn't britain have a massive civil rights movement in the 60s? oh yeah it's because we didn't really need one, not as far as the law goes. As far as the opinions of the population at large go, what's the membership of far-right and white power organisations in britain? mainland europe particularly eastern europe is considerably more racist than the uk, however america as the most diverse nation on earth contains a lot of the most extreme movements.
Incidentally, the uk has lots of black ministers.


Reason nr.7

THis reason apparently is the Gettysburg address? the US is great because once one guy spent 2 minutes saying something sensible? If a dutch person says something sensible for 3 minutes, can the netherlands be the greatest nation on earth please?


Reason nr.8 the country

After only one century, the nation was a model after which all other nations were built. Gotta love that.


You already said that, and it still isn't true.


Reason nr.9 Woody Allen

Woody allen is funny as fuck. the fact that you think you're celebrating inclusiveness in your nation by calling him a russian wuss faggot going nowhere in particular demonstrates your obsession with racism, macho nonsense etc, not mine. If woody allen read the nonsense you have written above, I think he'd be as amused and also saddenned as I am.


4. If anyone ever teaches a monkey to drive, it'll probably be an american.

it probably was.

Come on give the Americans a break. They can be proud of their nation, but I accept they do make huge claims about what they have done without supporting facts.
Oh and Marshal aid, the Uk did not receive any because it was with held becasue we had the cheek to vote in a left wing government. Sorry America we will stop being democratic so we don't upset your sensibilities. If you would care to narrow the political spectrum right down to a narrow right of centre band I'm sure the rest of the world will follow.

I was going to say i didn't think the UK got any marshall aid, but i couldn't find a source to prove it. Yay NianNorth. Thankyew.

Well Thallon. I don't hate Americans per say, I try to judge them on a person by person basis. My observations lead me to belive I like about 1 in 4 properly and can get on with about 3 in four (by biting my toungue, pretending to be Christian, keeping my 'pinko lefty' views to myselves etc. I don't have to do this in any other country, you get accepted that as a foreigner you have different views, and they tend to get listened to).

I do however, hate (ok strongly disslike) the state of America. I hate the political system that pretends to be democratic and advocate free speech which at the same time jailed people with left wing politics and publicly calls people traitors for questioning their government. I hate the 'America is wonderfull and the envy of the world' attitude that prevails in the media which the poster of this thread spouts from every pore. I hate the greedy consumption and the 'its my right to screw the rest of the world so I can be comfortable' attitude of the average consumer. I could go on for a very long time here.......

I could say similar things about the political systems of Saudi, Israel, Noth Korea, Russia ..... But America is the one that tries to force the rest of the world to accept their system by force of economics and military might, and seemingly, the one with the most arrogant citizens.

Oh and yeah I remember that Moore prog in the early/mid 90s. It was eventually played on some us channels, but it was a sensored version. Do you remember the 15min bit on the end that was for broadcast only outside of the US? It wasnt even that hard hitting was it?

Reason nr.2 the others who hate America

The others are bad news. Hussein, the Teheran ayatollahs, Taliban, Kim Jong Il of North Korea, Slobodan Milosevic. Are you with these guys or the US? Answer. Now.

Yay for manichean world views?

Reason nr.3 Michael Moore

It took an american to make us laugh of all the silly americans. Not a frenchie, or a kraut, or a gook.
It was Michael Moore from Flint, Michigan. With laughter he has awoken a dormant, sort of trendy political and civil awareness. He reminded us that the giants are people too.

Meh, we've been taking the piss out of you for years.

Reason nr.4 the constitution

The fourth of July 1776. Members of the continental congress gather in Philadelphia. Thomas Jefferson is there along with John Adams and Benjamin Franklin. It has gone no more than two days since the heads of the nation decided to declare themselves independent from England. Jefferson wrote (don't remember the exact words): "All people a created as equals, they have been given unbreakable right from their maker. Among these are the rights for life, freedom and the right to seek fortune."

This is the foundation of a genuine american government and way of life. Where all men are equal under God, all have equal rights for property and freedom (this isn't communism though, if you want something, WORK for it).

Yes that wonderful document that states that Black are only 3/5ths human.


Reason nr.4b the states

Eleven years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence comes the Union Bill (or somesuch) declaring that the states and the union will share the power. The equal organs of government will balance eachother: The Congress, the Supreme Court and the President of the United States of America.
And it was by copying the United States that the western world became what it is today.

Sure :rolleyes:


Reason nr.5 the Marshall-aid

Please don't tell me that you don't know what this is...
It was suggested in 1947, by George Marshall that the US start a program to help rebuild Europe. An economic crisis had to be averted to prevent Eurpoe from falling into the clammy hands of the Soviet Union. The Marshall-aid became the ikon of foreign-aid.

Or a way to consolidate American dominance, you decide.

Reason nr.6 Antirascism

Europe doesn't like to admit it, but in the fight agains rascism, the US is way ahead of us. Can you imagine a black minister of foreign-affairs in England? Or Norway? Two of the most powerful people in the Bush-administration are black. One of them is even a woman.

Hmm.
http://www.montserratreporter.org/pics/Baroness%20amos-jpg.jpg Britains Leader of the House of Lords (Previously Minister for Overseas Developement iirc) and President of the Council
http://www.gnn.gov.uk/MediaPath/Paul%20Boateng%20MP_0003.jpgOur Chief Secretary to the Treasury.

We also had a female head of state Ages ago, and a female PM a couple of decades ago.

Not that any of this means anything


Reason nr.7 "It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. And that government of the people... for the people... by the people... shall not perish from this earth."

A strange, clumsy guy with long arms and legs, a full beard and a penetrating voice. This man is, on the 19th of november 1863 standing on the national cemetery of Gettysburg, Pensylvania. A great battle had been fought, and there was Abraham Lincoln, the man who thought slavery was wrong.
Raised in Kentucky, no official education, he studied law alone and made himself a name as an Illinois attorney. He enters politics, he claims slavery is wrong. He becomes president, the south withdraw from the union. The civil war has started.

Halfway through the war he is at Gettysburg giving a speech. There was another man there, Edward Everett, believed to be the best speaker in the state. Everett spoke for almost two hours before Lincoln had his turn. Lincoln spoke for under two minutes. Does anyone remember Everetts speech?

And immediately after the Gettysburg Address Lincoln though it a failure. Again how does this prove anything?

Reason nr.8 the country

After only one century, the nation was a model after which all other nations were built. Gotta love that.

Umm, no. Considering that many nations were already established and have their own tradition.
Reasons given by citizens of the United States of America:

1. After 225 years, the nation still has that "new-country-smell".

Despite the fact that the modern US is completely different to the one envisanged by the Founders?

They'd probably have a fit if they were still alive.

lolololol

This was the funniest thing I've read in a year. Manipulating facts to suit your truth. Fun.

A little aside...I lived in Europe for a year, and while there I met some Americans (2 of whom became great friends of mine). While traveling with a group of them, they asked me to help them lie and say they were from Canada! They were too embarassed to say they were from the US. But, *I* was so embarassed by their loud, obnoxious behavior that I just couldn't bring myself to do it. They were most often too busy observing how the countries weren't the US to appreciate them.I was very glad to have a big Canadian flag on my backpack.

I like how this is one big, "We hate America!" thread, yet every non-American who posted's opinion doesn't matter. Their government will still continue to do as the Americans want, and if not?

We'll sanction or tariff you into the Stone age. =)

America is the single greatest country to ever exist in the world, and you're just pretentious Europeans. It's okay, us Americans have learned to accept your arrogance. We understand that you're elitist hypocrites, with really no basis for any claims that you make, and that our standard of living is far better.

I like how this is one big, "We hate America!" thread, yet every non-American who posted's opinion doesn't matter. Their government will still continue to do as the Americans want, and if not?

We'll sanction or tariff you into the Stone age. =)

America is the single greatest country to ever exist in the world, and you're just pretentious Europeans. It's okay, us Americans have learned to accept your arrogance. We understand that you're elitist hypocrites, with really no basis for any claims that you make, and that our standard of living is far better.
I'm hoping you aren't serious...
A big "We hate America" thread? All I've seen is people debunking the claims the original poster made. In fact, many went so far as to state specifically that they do not hate America.

I'm hoping there was a hint of sarcasm I missed here?

I like how this is one big, "We hate America!" thread, yet every non-American who posted's opinion doesn't matter. Their government will still continue to do as the Americans want, and if not?

We'll sanction or tariff you into the Stone age. =)

America is the single greatest country to ever exist in the world, and you're just pretentious Europeans. It's okay, us Americans have learned to accept your arrogance. We understand that you're elitist hypocrites, with really no basis for any claims that you make, and that our standard of living is far better.
What are you a Nazi? Because thats the attitude they had! And
NO ONE IN THIS THREAD HAS SAID THEY HATE AMERICA

Reason nr.8 the country

After only one century, the nation was a model after which all other nations were built. Gotta love that

He's right.
Many countries in the previous century were modeled after US (or at least they declared so):
The Shah's Iran.
Iraq in the 70/80's
Post soviet afghanistan...

Shall i keep listing other countries? :rolleyes:

Besides that, i like many american people, there are many great guys there.
The only problems is that they destroyed their education system and now we are witnessing the results.

I like how this is one big, "We hate America!" thread, yet every non-American who posted's opinion doesn't matter. Their government will still continue to do as the Americans want, and if not?

We'll sanction or tariff you into the Stone age. =)

America is the single greatest country to ever exist in the world, and you're just pretentious Europeans. It's okay, us Americans have learned to accept your arrogance. We understand that you're elitist hypocrites, with really no basis for any claims that you make, and that our standard of living is far better.Then I'll throw full bottles of coca cola down the street and I'll rename my freedom Donald's. You can't stop me, I swear I'll do it.
ah ha!
You see I don't joke, you must be very scared now.

I like how this is one big, "We hate America!" thread, yet every non-American who posted's opinion doesn't matter. Their government will still continue to do as the Americans want, and if not?

We'll sanction or tariff you into the Stone age. =)

America is the single greatest country to ever exist in the world, and you're just pretentious Europeans. It's okay, us Americans have learned to accept your arrogance. We understand that you're elitist hypocrites, with really no basis for any claims that you make, and that our standard of living is far better.

Far better standard of living? In America?!! Ha! That's got to be the funniest thing I've read all day. As for sanctions and tariffs... I seem to recall the American government trying to put extra tariffs on European steel because American steel sucks and can't compete. That didn't last very long at all, did it? Face it: The US is dependant on imports, whether you like it or not.

I like how this is one big, "We hate America!" thread, yet every non-American who posted's opinion doesn't matter. Their government will still continue to do as the Americans want, and if not?

We'll sanction or tariff you into the Stone age. =)

America is the single greatest country to ever exist in the world, and you're just pretentious Europeans. It's okay, us Americans have learned to accept your arrogance. We understand that you're elitist hypocrites, with really no basis for any claims that you make, and that our standard of living is far better.

I'm not from Europe.

Sorry guys, but Americans are simply going to have to claim this one. Considering most of Europe critisized us well into the early sixties about how we allowed 'far too much race mixing' in our country, and they scoffed at the horror that was a mixed marraiage, only to suddenly turn around and critisize us for being racists during the sixties.

Any problems you see with American race relations is simply due to the fact that WE HAVE DIFFERENT RACES IN THIS COUNTRY. Sorry, but Britain is one of the more diverse countries in Europe, and a token Black guy catering my food or a token Indian walking down the street doesn't count as diverse. Nor does it count as equal. Race in England just seems like an issue swept under the carpet, no one asks why some jobs are filled with only certain types of people, 'it's just the way it is'.

The way Europe is dealing with the Arab Immigration is horrendous. They have ALOT to learn about tolerance and divirsity and I'm not about to hear them give ME a lesson when - and this is the first time they've had a minority large enough to actually cause 'race issues', the Arabs - they ban head scarves in schools and then tell me I'm racist.

-J

'Sorry guys, but Americans are simply going to have to claim this one. Considering most of Europe critisized us well into the early sixties about how we allowed 'far too much race mixing' in our country, and they scoffed at the horror that was a mixed marraiage, only to suddenly turn around and critisize us for being racists during the sixties.'

I think youre quoting Enoch Powell, who was villified for his speaches.

And calling France the whole of Europe is like saying that because California legislated so and so, the US did. And the UK has far more integrated cities than the US, have you ever walked round London or Manhester, it aint one token Indian ill tell you!! For that matter ever been to Athens, Marsailles ....

Sorry guys, but Americans are simply going to have to claim this one. Considering most of Europe critisized us well into the early sixties about how we allowed 'far too much race mixing' in our country, and they scoffed at the horror that was a mixed marraiage, only to suddenly turn around and critisize us for being racists during the sixties.

Any problems you see with American race relations is simply due to the fact that WE HAVE DIFFERENT RACES IN THIS COUNTRY. Sorry, but Britain is one of the more diverse countries in Europe, and a token Black guy catering my food or a token Indian walking down the street doesn't count as diverse. Nor does it count as equal. Race in England just seems like an issue swept under the carpet, no one asks why some jobs are filled with only certain types of people, 'it's just the way it is'.

The way Europe is dealing with the Arab Immigration is horrendous. They have ALOT to learn about tolerance and divirsity and I'm not about to hear them give ME a lesson when - and this is the first time they've had a minority large enough to actually cause 'race issues', the Arabs - they ban head scarves in schools and then tell me I'm racist.

-J

The thing is we're not saying our nation is the best in the world!

Are you going to say that Americans don't need to learn about tolerance and divirsity? (dem a-rabs/moslems?)

On the ban that was one country and
The French banned all religious icons in schools!

And on the UK
Hmm.
http://www.montserratreporter.org/pics/Baroness%20amos-jpg.jpg Britains Leader of the House of Lords (Previously Minister for Overseas Developement iirc) and President of the Council
http://www.gnn.gov.uk/MediaPath/Paul%20Boateng%20MP_0003.jpgOur Chief Secretary to the Treasury.

I'm hoping you aren't serious...
A big "We hate America" thread? All I've seen is people debunking the claims the original poster made. In fact, many went so far as to state specifically that they do not hate America.

I'm hoping there was a hint of sarcasm I missed here?

So, it's okay to make the worst possible claims about something, then say, "Oh, but I don't hate it." and somehow, that's okay? Give me a break.

That's as bad as people going, "Erggh, stupid black people!"

Then following it up with, "But I'm no racist!"

How can the USA be more diverse then europe?! We are 35 countries!(37 includin Russia and Turkey) ;) :p


So, it's okay to make the worst possible claims about something, then say, "Oh, but I don't hate it." and somehow, that's okay? Give me a break.

That's as bad as people going, "Erggh, stupid black people!"

Then following it up with, "But I'm no racist!"
Ehh, no we're saying that most of his points are wrong and that America isn't the best country in the world. Thats a long way from hate!

How can the USA be more diverse then europe?! We are 35 countries!(37 includin Russia and Turkey) ;) :p



Everyone knows that diversity is exclusively about the colour of your skin.

Sorry guys, but Americans are simply going to have to claim this one. Considering most of Europe critisized us well into the early sixties about how we allowed 'far too much race mixing' in our country, and they scoffed at the horror that was a mixed marraiage, only to suddenly turn around and critisize us for being racists during the sixties.

Any problems you see with American race relations is simply due to the fact that WE HAVE DIFFERENT RACES IN THIS COUNTRY. Sorry, but Britain is one of the more diverse countries in Europe, and a token Black guy catering my food or a token Indian walking down the street doesn't count as diverse. Nor does it count as equal. Race in England just seems like an issue swept under the carpet, no one asks why some jobs are filled with only certain types of people, 'it's just the way it is'.

The way Europe is dealing with the Arab Immigration is horrendous. They have ALOT to learn about tolerance and divirsity and I'm not about to hear them give ME a lesson when - and this is the first time they've had a minority large enough to actually cause 'race issues', the Arabs - they ban head scarves in schools and then tell me I'm racist.

-JSorry man but this is bullshit.
Muslim immigration is not something new in France. We have many arabs and many jews (10% of the population each). We also have a lot of blacks from Africa because France (and England and Spain and Portugal) was a colonial country (in case you don't know your history France created the US actually and imported black men there) (about 20%).
We have a lot of experience with dealing with this, especially we have a lot of experience with terrorism.
And we have banned religious symbols in schools because we have a hell lot of experience when dealing with religion, more than 1000 years of experience. We are now a secular country, something the US should learn from instead of always thinking it invented everything.
Of course, you don't know anything since you burnt all the books which talked about France or renamed them to talk about freedom...

Everyone knows that diversity is exclusively about the colour of your skin.
OH! I'm so stupid :headbang: ;)

The way Europe is dealing with the Arab Immigration is horrendous. They have ALOT to learn about tolerance and divirsity and I'm not about to hear them give ME a lesson when - and this is the first time they've had a minority large enough to actually cause 'race issues', the Arabs - they ban head scarves in schools and then tell me I'm racist.


Er, no actually. France banned ALL religious symbols from schools. They didn't just ban Muslim religious symbols, like the headscarf.

So, it's okay to make the worst possible claims about something, then say, "Oh, but I don't hate it." and somehow, that's okay? Give me a break.

That's as bad as people going, "Erggh, stupid black people!"

Then following it up with, "But I'm no racist!"
Whoa, who's making the worst possible claims here? I don't see anybody making negative claims about America, just refuting the points the original poster made. Unless I've misread?

So, it's okay to make the worst possible claims about something, then say, "Oh, but I don't hate it." and somehow, that's okay? Give me a break.

That's as bad as people going, "Erggh, stupid black people!"

Then following it up with, "But I'm no racist!"
So you're saying that pointing out glaring factual errors is akin to Racism?

So, it's okay to make the worst possible claims about something, then say, "Oh, but I don't hate it." and somehow, that's okay? Give me a break.

That's as bad as people going, "Erggh, stupid black people!"

Then following it up with, "But I'm no racist!"

Could you give us a few examples of these terrible claims that people are making? And don't just say "read the thread", I want some examples of what you think are unacceptable claims.

How can the USA be more diverse then europe?! We are 35 countries!(37 includin Russia and Turkey)

Everyone knows that diversity is exclusively about the colour of your skin.

Brazil, the champion of diversity, yeah :D

To be fair, that's not really true either. People in the US have done some pretty impressive things in many areas. Think Edison, the Wright brothers, much of the computer industry, and so on. The US government as a nation has a rather less spectacular record though.
Ah the Wright brothers, second to get a plane flying, quite an accomplishment indeed!

I like how this is one big, "We hate America!" thread, yet every non-American who posted's opinion doesn't matter. Their government will still continue to do as the Americans want, and if not?

We'll sanction or tariff you into the Stone age. =)
Well it's great to know that you dont appear to support honest ethical dealings. You've come along and said that the US government, will use tarrifs to stop other nations' democratically elected leaders, abiding by the wishes of their constituents...all this while your government demands everyone else engage in free trade (ie trade without tarrifs) and claims to be spreading democracy... :rolleyes:

You clearly dont value democracy much if you think it is worthwhile sacrificing it for economic incentives...personally your government can continue to play dirty with their petty tarrifs for all I care. I doubt very much that our giving into your government will actually see an end to the tarrifs on our primary exports to the States, the fact is too many of your farmers get grumpy when it appears they might have to compete openly with ours.

Sorry guys, but Americans are simply going to have to claim this one. Considering most of Europe critisized us well into the early sixties about how we allowed 'far too much race mixing' in our country, and they scoffed at the horror that was a mixed marraiage, only to suddenly turn around and critisize us for being racists during the sixties.
No they dont get to claim that one either. Mixed marraiges have been par for the course around these here parts for well over a century, maybe if the States had headed that way in the 1860's.....

So, it's okay to make the worst possible claims about something, then say, "Oh, but I don't hate it." and somehow, that's okay? Give me a break.
In the first place, it's not relevent because so far as I can tell, the worst possible claims have not been made. In the second place, yes it is ok to make honest and truthful observations about something. In fact considering the alternatives are to lie, or to bury one's head in the sand and hope it goes away, it's better than 'ok', it's recommended in fact.

That's as bad as people going, "Erggh, stupid black people!"

Then following it up with, "But I'm no racist!"
No, it's not.

Can anyone wire me some money so I can get a plane ticket out of here?

America is the single greatest country to ever exist in the world, and you're just pretentious Europeans.

Hark, the wisp of double standards is in the air.

I'd pick europe over america anytime

Any problems you see with American race relations is simply due to the fact that WE HAVE DIFFERENT RACES IN THIS COUNTRY. Sorry, but Britain is one of the more diverse countries in Europe, and a token Black guy catering my food or a token Indian walking down the street doesn't count as diverse. Nor does it count as equal. Race in England just seems like an issue swept under the carpet, no one asks why some jobs are filled with only certain types of people, 'it's just the way it is'

Do you LIVE in Britain. Do you KNOW anything about it's diversity. I would ask you to apologise NOW for the extremely genralising comments that you have made in regards to British diversity.


The way Europe is dealing with the Arab Immigration is horrendous. They have ALOT to learn about tolerance and divirsity and I'm not about to hear them give ME a lesson when - and this is the first time they've had a minority large enough to actually cause 'race issues', the Arabs - they ban head scarves in schools and then tell me I'm racist.


That was France. Not Europe as a whole. And kindly note that they banned not just headscarfs but ALL RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS. They did not ban Muslim dress, they banned all religious articles of clothing. I dont know why they did it but they did. And also the Arab minorities in France and the rest of Europe are not new. They are greater now though because your country has angered them so much that they have attacked you and now they stand out. There are more of them now proberbly because of Iraq and non of them wanting to live in a warzone, come to us. Also there is a good reason why we have more race problems than you do. Europe is a lot less geographicaly isolated than America. I don't know if you have looked at a map (Given American records on Geography I wouldn't be suprised if you couldnt find Ireland) but Europe has a direct land connection to the Middle East and not a lot of water seperating it. The only two nations you share a land border with are Canada and Mexico, neither of which many of your school children can find on a map. And don't accuse us of intollerance. At least we dont have vigalanties patroling our border with M-16's and shooting all those who cross the border into the country, unlike a certian border between Central and North America I could mention.

At least we dont have vigalanties patroling our border with M-16's and shooting all those who cross the border into the country, unlike a certian border between Central and North America I could mention.

My response: I find that quite a bit fallacious.

Or I could take your approach:

I would ask you to apologise NOW for the extremely genralizing comments that you have made in regards to American tolerance!

I would ask you to apologise NOW for the extremely genralizing comments that you have made in regards to American tolerance!

Unlike other posters, I have made no comments that are not backed up with facts or studies. I seems to me that many of the American posters on here (and indeed many Americans in general) are indoctrinated with the idea that they are the best in the world and that no other country is remotely as good as them. If you want to see the backing of my comments about the geography ineptness, see my original post on page 1.

I'm shocked that there are at least six pages required to discuss what could've been described in 18 words or less:

"The good thing about America is that eventually, it too will be a thing of the past."

Michel Moore represents the "good stuff" about America??? MICHAEL MOORE??? :eek:

I'm shocked that there are at least six pages required to discuss what could've been described in 18 words or less:

"The good thing about America is that eventually, it too will be a thing of the past."

:mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5:

:mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5:

The strength of your argument overwhelms me not in the least. That you respond with guns not words confirms my sense where America, and Americans are concerned.

Thank you, drive through.

My response: I find that quite a bit fallacious.


What, that there are vigilanties patroling the Mexico-US border. Check it out, its real.

http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=27327

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/american-border-patrol.html

http://www.rtfcam.org/report/volume_23/No_1/article_6.htm

There is a lot more out there

The strength of your argument overwhelms me not in the least. That you respond with guns not words confirms my sense where America, and Americans are concerned.

Thank you, drive through.


I think he is saying that if the United States goes down, it's not above taking everybody else out with it.

What, that there are vigilanties patroling the Mexico-US border. Check it out, its real.

http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=27327

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/american-border-patrol.html

http://www.rtfcam.org/report/volume_23/No_1/article_6.htm

There is a lot more out there

THats some scarey shit!

I think he is saying that if the United States goes down, it's not above taking everybody else out with it.

I've been seeing it happen all around me for years now. The US is going down, and it is dragging everybody else down with it. I'd fully expect them, in the face of some dilineable 'end', to scorch the rest of the planet for having the audacity to think it could muddle its' way through without them holding all our collective leashes.

:mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5:

Doing your best to dispell those stereotypes about Americans, I see.

I've been seeing it happen all around me for years now. The US is going down, and it is dragging everybody else down with it. I'd fully expect them, in the face of some dilineable 'end', to scorch the rest of the planet for having the audacity to think it could muddle its' way through without them holding all our collective leashes.


Hopefully we at least get to "survive" as radioactive zombies when all the bombing is ove rwith

What, that there are vigilanties patroling the Mexico-US border. Check it out, its real.

http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=27327

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/american-border-patrol.html

http://www.rtfcam.org/report/volume_23/No_1/article_6.htm

There is a lot more out there

No big surprise here. How many of the poor SOBs being collared by these thugs are actually being 'handed over to authorities' and how many are being summarily beaten or worse by these xenophobes?

And hello. Again. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in. But I go away, now.

Au revoir.

No big surprise here. How many of the poor SOBs being collared by these thugs are actually being 'handed over to authorities' and how many are being summarily beaten or worse by these xenophobes?

And hello. Again. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in. But I go away, now.

Au revoir.


I'd love to arm those crossing the border so that they could at least have somewhat of a fair fight against these guys.

THats some scarey shit!

Whats worse is that its real and the American government isn't doing very much about it. Bush is going on about the terrorism everywhere else in the world, and is obsessed with locking up unlawful combatants, but I would submit that some of the most obvious unlawful combatants are on his nations doorstep, trying not to let people in.

(On a funny note, it is interesting how there is a Northern drift in North America. All the Mexiacans want to go to America and all the Americans want to go be Canadian when they go anywhere else)

No big surprise here. How many of the poor SOBs being collared by these thugs are actually being 'handed over to authorities' and how many are being summarily beaten or worse by these xenophobes?

And hello. Again. Just thought I'd throw my two cents in. But I go away, now.

Au revoir.

??? I thought you'd left ???

Stick around Dobbsie.

I'd love to arm those crossing the border so that they could at least have somewhat of a fair fight against these guys.

Yeah that'd work.

??? I thought you'd left ???

Stick around Dobbsie.

I said I'd still lurk and maybe post once in a while. But no, fellow Sub-G...not yet anyway.

Whats worse is that its real and the American government isn't doing very much about it. Bush is going on about the terrorism everywhere else in the world, and is obsessed with locking up unlawful combatants, but I would submit that some of the most obvious unlawful combatants are on his nations doorstep, trying not to let people in.

(On a funny note, it is interesting how there is a Northern drift in North America. All the Mexiacans want to go to America and all the Americans want to go be Canadian when they go anywhere else)

Yeah I'd love to see a militia from the U.S. go after Bush. It'sd be interesting to see hwo that plays out.

That is a funny thing. Canada is so awesome though, so that makes a lot of sense.

Whats wierd to me is that people don't want to stay in Mexico and live a much simpler life.

Yeah that'd work.


lol probably not but I don't want the immigrants to be the only ones with casualties

Ok DT.

How about they require law enforcement officials to be on-scene to verify and account for the actions of these vigilante groups?

Whats worse is that its real and the American government isn't doing very much about it. Bush is going on about the terrorism everywhere else in the world, and is obsessed with locking up unlawful combatants, but I would submit that some of the most obvious unlawful combatants are on his nations doorstep, trying not to let people in.


Huh, that's funny, because the Mexican Government doesn't seem overly concerned either: The Mexican government, through its consulates in Arizona, announced that it would keep a careful eye on the activities of the Minutemen, and would legally challenge any wrongdoing.

Yup, when another nation's people kill and cowboy mine I'd give them a careful eye, too...:rolleyes:


(On a funny note, it is interesting how there is a Northern drift in North America. All the Mexiacans want to go to America and all the Americans want to go be Canadian when they go anywhere else)
Hm, I don't know many Americans that want to go to Canada, actually.

Hm, I don't know many Americans that want to go to Canada, actually.

My American friends in Canada wish they knew fewer who feel that way...

I know several people who want to move to Canada.

Hm, I don't know many Americans that want to go to Canada, actually.

I didnt say they wanted to "go" to Canada. I read this story in the Times about how Americans are buying this pack called "how to be Canadian" which is basicly a way of engrossing you with Canadian culture in order not to be asscociated with lots of the negative ideas about Americans.

I didnt say they wanted to "go" to Canada. I read this story in the Times about how Americans are buying this pack called "how to be Canadian" which is basicly a way of engrossing you with Canadian culture in order not to be asscociated with lots of the negative ideas about Americans.

That strikes me as being singularly pathetic.

I agree with damn near everything in the original post (save the Michael Moore deal, but there exists a thing such as free speech).

There is a reason why so many people risk their lives to enter my country (yes, I proudly claim it to be my own, unlike the ungrateful people that over-criticize it while hiding behind the basic rights afforded to them by said institution). People want to be free and work for a better life. American ideals allow people to do that the best.

The reason why we are hated so much worldwide is the fact that we have it good and other people don't. If they had it good, they wouldn't take their own time and whine about a country of which they (as foreigners) have no control over. They'd be worried about their own country and it's own problems.

What country was the first criticized for not shipping enough aid to the tsunami viticims of Asia? Was it the French? Russia? Mexico?

No. The world expected the wealthy Americans to help these people in their time of need. They expected America to bail them out. All despite the fact that most world-wide despise and/or hate America.

Oh, and the UN? America provides a full one-quarter of the annual funding. Despite the fact that there are 176 other countries in the UN.

In other words, when it comes down to punches, they expect us to save everybody from everything. And yet we are evil. Can you say hypocrites?

Yes, I am proud to be an American. Yes, there are some issues that need to be addressed and problems need to be solved. But by and by we have it good here. We are free to speak our mind; we are free to make our own choices.

The only people afraid of freedom are the tyrannical and unrighteous. The idea of freedom is a constant reminder that their days are numbered.

For all those naysayers out there that are undoubtedly going to take what I have said out of context and try to morph my "logical fallacies" into their own political agenda, I say don't waste your time. Because you see, I am a true American. I understand that the world envies us, hates us, and expects us to protect them all at the same time.

But then I know that at least one person envies the US out there, so feel free to show everybody that you are jealous. :-D

I understand that the world envies us, hates us, and expects us to protect them all at the same time.

Gee thanks, dad. Adoptive dad. Uh- guy who suddenly decides to play dad.

Funny, I didn't ask for a daddy.

Anyone else see irony here?

and how about this person calling Woody Allen a "f*ggot"?

I find that pretty offensive as well as the other slurs this person used.

What is this person's nationality, anyway?

And by the way, I'm an American :( and I must say that I absolutely disagree with this person's reasoning. However, I think maybe it's a joke. Because, really, can someone be so ignorant?

. o ( well, of course someone can be that ignorant, after all I live in America, I should know better ) :D

Gee thanks, dad. Adoptive dad. Uh- guy who suddenly decides to play dad.

Funny, I didn't ask for a daddy.

Then don't expect anything from the US next time a foreign country has a crisis.

Don't expect the UN to have their HQ in the US.

Don't expect the US to be too concerned if and when a country invades another.

Don't expect the US to help should, god forsake, another Hitler or Stalin comes to power.

You might not have asked for the US to do its part, but other people have, and whether you like it or not, you have benefitted from said help. :-D

Then don't expect anything from the US next time a foreign country has a crisis.

Don't expect the UN to have their HQ in the US.

Don't expect the US to be too concerned if and when a country invades another.

Don't expect the US to help should, god forsake, another Hitler or Stalin comes to power.

You might not have asked for the US to do its part, but other people have, and whether you like it or not, you have benefitted from said help. :-D


I wish I could not expect these things.

I wish the US would isolate itself and work on it's own problems first.

AS An American I don't think it is too much to ask.

Then don't expect anything from the US next time a foreign country has a crisis.

Okay, will do, dad. Me and my friends promise not to do anything stoopid :rolleyes:

Don't expect the UN to have their HQ in the US.

Alright dad, we'll move the clubhouse into the backyard *sigh* Hey, Canada can we use your treehouse for club meetings? OK DAD we got that one figured out!

Don't expect the US to be too concerned if and when a country invades another.

But dad, you've NEVER been concerned when that happens...except those people from the oil company...the ones you met at the country club. Sheik-something-or-other...but I thought that was a kingdom or something, not a country...

Don't expect the US to help should, god forsake, another Hitler or Stalin comes to power.

Okay, dad seeya - have fun staying at home like you always wanna do.

You might not have asked for the US to do its part, but other people have, and whether you like it or not, you have benefitted from said help. :-D

Always gotta throw in the guilt before I go out and have a good time, dontcha dad? Sheesh. Next you'll be telling me how much discomfort I caused mom being born. Seeya later. This place is dullsville - have fun polishing your gunrack, or waxing your boots, or whatever it is you do to entertain yourself, dad.

I wish I could not expect these things.

I wish the US would isolate itself and work on it's own problems first.

AS An American I don't think it is too much to ask.

And as an American I believe that current world relations do not support your beliefs.

Look at the middle east. Besides supporting Israel and buying oil, we have done very little to spur the hatred currently being spewed from terrorist organizations.

It can be argued that our very interest in the middle east being stable has caused our current predicament, but we need oil for our economy to survive. On top of that, we need a stable middle east to maintain cheap affordable oil. Leaving the situation alone will breed nothing but problems.

So you see, as with any great nation that chose isolationism in the past, it doesn't always work.

Okay, will do, dad. Me and my friends promise not to do anything stoopid :rolleyes:



Alright dad, we'll move the clubhouse into the backyard *sigh* Hey, Canada can we use your treehouse for club meetings? OK DAD we got that one figured out!



But dad, you've NEVER been concerned when that happens...except those people from the oil company...the ones you met at the country club. Sheik-something-or-other...but I thought that was a kingdom or something, not a country...



Okay, dad seeya - have fun staying at home like you always wanna do.



Always gotta throw in the guilt before I go out and have a good time, dontcha dad? Sheesh. Next you'll be telling me how much discomfort I caused mom being born. Seeya later. This place is dullsville - have fun polishing your gunrack, or waxing your boots, or whatever it is you do to entertain yourself, dad.

You just proved that even with a respectable conversation there will be those that cannot rationally explore an idea without acting completely immature. Congratulations.

I'm sorry if your relationship with your alleged father was not on the best of terms. Is that my problem? No? Okay then.

Don't come running to daddy with problems he's already warned you about. You make your own decisions, and you must stick with them.

It's called responsibility. And, if you were even slightly mature, you'd see that responsibility is required in the world scene.

Ezra is a typical American?

I thought it was more like this guy?

http://www.heritech.com/pridger/images/patriot.gif

You just proved that even with a respectable conversation there will be those that cannot rationally explore an idea without acting completely immature. Congratulations.

I'm sorry if your relationship with your alleged father was not on the best of terms. Is that my problem? No? Okay then.

Don't come running to daddy with problems he's already warned you about. You make your own decisions, and you must stick with them.

It's called responsibility. And, if you were even slightly mature, you'd see that responsibility is required in the world scene.

And you've just proved that the US is sick - having a paternalistic attitude towards other nations, like an overprotective parent. Except you're not our parent. You aren't anyone's parent. Not even an adoptive parent. You're like some weirdo from the bus station. But since you want so badly to be everybody's, realize this:

No child loves the restraints and prohibitions thrown at them by their parents - no matter how well-intentioned.

This has nothing to do with my own biological parent. It has everything to do with American martyrdom.

Then don't expect anything from the US next time a foreign country has a crisis.

Took long enough for Bush to even recognise the last crisis, and he DID ask for about

Don't expect the UN to have their HQ in the US.

The US INSISTED that the UN was on their soil. Like they do with just about everything.

Don't expect the US to be too concerned if and when a country invades another.

You usually aren't. Except, of course, when you're the ones doing the invading. Usually on false pretences.

Don't expect the US to help should, god forsake, another Hitler or Stalin comes to power.

No worries. Probably be IN the US anyway. Or at least in the CIA.

Oh, and what exactly did the US do against Stalin? I remember! NOTHING.

You might not have asked for the US to do its part, but other people have, and whether you like it or not, you have benefitted from said help. :-D

Yes, people benefit from the US's help. It's just that your government is so damned smug about it. And it offers conditional help, anyway.

And don't try and hide from all the despicable things the US has done. Perverting the course of numerous democracies, including those of Italy and Australia (both of which were allies of America at the time). Oh, and Greece. Indonesia. Chile. Laos. Cambodia. Grenada. Guatemala. Iran. The Dominican Republic.
Or perhaps the support of brutal dictators, like Suharto (who's slaughtered a full third of the population of East Timor, and who you put into power by overthrowing a fairly elected government), Saddam Hussein (did he just fool you for the initial 20 years of hi reign?), Savimbi (Angola. It's in Africa, for the geographically challenged) D'Aubuisson (the priest killer in El Salvador), ANY middle eastern monarch you can think of (so democratic), Noriega (Panama).....

First off, I will openly admit that I am an American. Although there has been a lot of issues with things related to Americanism, there are still some things I still stand for.


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Cited from: http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html


This alone is pretty self-explanatory and clear. This is the reason that my ancestors chose to immigrate to the United States, four generations ago. They saw the nation as one that held promise to build a life for themselves, to make their own name, no matter how insignificant it may be. This thougt pattern has been thusly handed down through the generations. However, as the kind of person I am, I will state that I have been disgusted by a number of things that Americans, or the American government has turned into these days. It disgusts me to even claim that they are Americans, wheras, if you define it by the standards that the Forefathers lived by, they are not Americans anymore, but rather Americans who've become ensnared in corporatism. Corporatized Americans, if you will.

As for the whole Superpower thing, I think it's a crock of shit. So we have weapons that go boom... big deal. So did empires of the past, the chinese with gunpowder, etc.

In a sense, if you consider what the forefathers created this nation upon, then the inevitable truth is this:

America has become that which it used to hate so much. It freed itself from the tyrannical rule of King George III of Great Britain. Yet, hardly 225 years later, America has become another tyrannical empire (an empire of commercialism)! America has become its own hypocrite in a sense.

To conclude, I think the United States is long overdue for a global overhaul, in regards to economy, world activites, etc. We need to return to the humble lives of our forefathers, who were simply content to live for family and home. We need to get rid of the pride that has us ensnared, and has us touting the big stick of world police. Screw that, let the rest of the world take care of itself. Take care of your own first, and AFTERWARDS, if you have the means to, assist the world.

I can only picture the United States as a bodybuilder that's worked only his arms (military might) and his neck (ego) but has failed to strengthen his legs (intranational issues).

the finest nation? lol, yeah right... see, I'm glad not to be born there.

*rolls eyes at flag-waving little patriots with no life*

Don't expect the UN to have their HQ in the US.

well, since most of the UN's members are not american, i would suggest it actually makes sense to house its headqarters near the majority of its member nations... say... europe?

Don't expect the US to be too concerned if and when a country invades another.

since when has america been particuarly interested about that anyway? oh wait... unless their assets are in danger, then they are the first in there landing tanks on the beaches :|

Don't expect the US to help should, god forsake, another Hitler or Stalin comes to power.

and what the hell did america do last time eh? sit on its butt untill it started loosing its own citizens :|

no matter that the european allies had been fighting for about THREE YEARS ON OUR OWN before america finally decided to help out. i will admit that the materials and supplies were a great help to the war effort pre america joining, but since we were paying for them anyway...

even without the USA joining the war, the euopean allies could have held a stalemate for quite a while longer, and indeed continued the attition of the axis forces.

and i would also like to say one of the reasons the rest of the world, in particular england and a large proportion of europe, are so annoyed with america is the attitude which give them the 'right' to claim that they won the first and second world wars single handed.

america helped, and helped in a big way, but their roll in terms of millitary power was not totaly vital to the winning of the wars.

the vilification, and stereotyping of the very few 'allied' soldiers portrayed in american films does even more damage to america than you would think. and just for the records, america did not break any of the enigma codes, and you did not invent the computer :|

You might not have asked for the US to do its part, but other people have, and whether you like it or not, you have benefitted from said help. :-D

and when does that help arrive? when america looks like it will have some of its property destroyed, or when it can be shamed into doing something it should be doing to help anyway.

america has done a great deal in the latest asian quake/tidal wave, but mostly to help better its PR relations and secure more political allies than any desire to help i would imagine :|

and responding to the first post, where it states something like 'all other countries are based on our system of goverment'. do you even know what say... a comunist system of goverment looks like? or a dictatorship? oh wait, a large percentage of the worlds goverments are not based on 'american' ways... hang on though... isnt the american system created from... OMG! he system that europe has used for centuries!

america has been in existance to a blink of the time the civilisations of europe have. we have done and outgrown the 'empire' stages of our nations. america seems to want to start, or continue that spirit on :|

Reason nr.5 the Marshall-aid

Please don't tell me that you don't know what this is...
It was suggested in 1947, by George Marshall that the US start a program to help rebuild Europe. An economic crisis had to be averted to prevent Eurpoe from falling into the clammy hands of the Soviet Union. The Marshall-aid became the ikon of foreign-aid.

That is exactly the point, the americans only did that because they didnt want Europe under control by or extremly chummy with the U.S.S.R the americans only did it for their own interests not any one elses

Reason nr.6 Antirascism

Europe doesn't like to admit it, but in the fight agains rascism, the US is way ahead of us. Can you imagine a black minister of foreign-affairs in England? Or Norway? Two of the most powerful people in the Bush-administration are black. One of them is even a woman.
Come on u cant seriously say that the americans are further ahead in race relations than anyone else on the sole basis you have 2 black people in senior government. Remember it was the Europeans (The British mainly i think) who got slavery abolished in the first place the US only got rid of apartheid/segregation when martin luther king began his protests. And finally yes i can imagine a black person in the British Government the only reason there isnt might possibly be because of the fact that no black people want to be in government

Then don't expect anything from the US next time a foreign country has a crisis.
Like we are that naive. If it is the world that is so eager for US help rather than the US being eager to stick their finger in every pie that might prove profitable to have a finger in, kindly explain why an event as horrific and catestrophic as the Tsunami was according to the US secretary of state, an 'opportunity' for the US...

Don't expect the UN to have their HQ in the US.
Again I doubt many people are naive enough to expect the US to give up an inch of it's strangle hold on the UN.

Don't expect the US to be too concerned if and when a country invades another.
As a result of our democratically elected government, democratically following the mandate given to it by it's electors, we have already been pretty much told to 'shove it' on this front. That didnt stop us helping you in Afghanistan, nor did our charitable decision to help in Afghanistan, despite the US's attempt to pervert our democratic processes by pulling a 'if you dont play how I want, I'm taking my bat and ball and you cant play with me or my stuff anymore' temper-tantrum, prevent the US from completely ignoring our government's stipulation that our troop movements be kept secret. Funnily enough publishing the secret movements of your allies troops on a website, renders them somewhat less secret...

Dont expect the US to help should, god forsake, another Hitler or Stalin comes to power.
As I recall the last time a Hitler or Stalin came to power, the world was pretty much on it's own as far as the US was concerned, so long as the US itself was left alone.

You might not have asked for the US to do its part, but other people have, and whether you like it or not, you have benefitted from said help. :-D
The US has asked for the help of others, and has benefitted from said help...what exactly do you imagine this proves?

america has been in existance to a blink of the time the civilisations of europe have. we have done and outgrown the 'empire' stages of our nations. america seems to want to start, or continue that spirit on :|

So America is ensnared in it's own imperialistic views and wishes to continue it. Didn't your empires think the same way too, way back then?

So America is ensnared in it's own imperialistic views and wishes to continue it. Didn't your empires think the same way too, way back then?

Even if they did, way back when, it just underscores how sad and pathetic it is to see America making the same mistakes in the present, apparently oblivious to the fate of all empires. America has entered a decadent period. But don't expect Mr. Bush to utter, 'Apres nous la deluge'.

He possesses neither the irony, nor the senses of history or occasion, to deliver un bon mot.

So America is ensnared in it's own imperialistic views and wishes to continue it. Didn't your empires think the same way too, way back then?

not being alive at the time of our empire, and indeed any time immediatly after it, i would not know.

perhaps you would get a better idea from speaking with an american gov't spokesman/woman :|

i would say though that just like america is doing now, the european 'superpowers' of the day justified empire building as 'gods work' for the nation as an excuse for land and resource grabbing. infact, just like america does today, just in slightly more diplomatic ways.

however, unlike america, we actually modernised and educated the populance of those countries we 'made' and then promptly took over. i will admit that because of the prevading religious beleifs at the time, they treatment of natives was not too great, but at least we build infrastructure, hospitals for sick natives, schools to educate them. we introduced new farming methods, new tools, and technology. unfortuanatly when we kindly decided to hand back the countries we created, the natives had not learnt enough self control and hence a large portion of africa is in continual civil war :|

i would suggest that unlike current US policies, we did a damn fine job of bringing 'modern' life to otherwise 'primitive' people. whether that was a good thing or not, i cannot say.

now, the eurpopean powers have gotten over our 'empire' days, and now seek peace with the world. we do not activly try to interfear with foriegn powers, nor do we threaten smaller nations with force of arms or trade embargos if they do not do what we want.

as far as i can see, that puts us several rungs above the USA on the social ladder.

and so, to answer your actual question, yes, america is 'ensnared in it's own imperialistic views and wishes to continue it'

Reason nr.6 Antirascism

Europe doesn't like to admit it, but in the fight agains rascism, the US is way ahead of us. Can you imagine a black minister of foreign-affairs in England? Or Norway? Two of the most powerful people in the Bush-administration are black. One of them is even a woman.


I think it is slighty unfair to compare the number of black people in office in America with the number in Britain and particulary Norway. America has a very diverse mix of black and white people today because in the past there were lots of black slaves. Britain has a far smaller black population and Norway? Norway, as far as I'm aware, was never involved in the slave trade much. The Norwegians are mostly white. Very very white. In the same way there are not many Scandanavians living in Australia, there are not many black people living in Scandanavia.
If you want to look at rasicm, try looking at the American people's current attitude to Asians. Look at after 911 how many people associated Middle Eastern people as terrorists.

But don't expect Mr. Bush to utter, 'Apres nous la deluge'.


Can you translate that quote for me? I can't find a translation for it. Thanks. It'll help to puncutate your comments.


i would suggest that unlike current US policies, we did a damn fine job of bringing 'modern' life to otherwise 'primitive' people. whether that was a good thing or not, i cannot say.


I'm sorry, my words which you have quoted should have be written like this:
"Wouldn't you think your empires thought the same way, back then?"

It was more of a rhetorical question anyways...

None of us are perfect. Empires of old made their mistakes, and unfortunately, America is making the same mistakes. I however, wouldn't say that just because we aren't 'learning from the past', doesn't mean that we are completely stupid. If you consider human nature, it is one of the human traits to want to desire to dominate something in some way, shape, or form. Competition is in our genes, as with all species. This will include imperialism being a form of competition ("My wank power is better than yours!").

Can you translate that quote for me? I can't find a translation for it. Thanks. It'll help to puncutate your comments.


*grumbles*

...obviously didn't take history class seriously...

"Apres nous la deluge" spoken by the 'sun-king' Louis XV. Translates to "After us comes the flood". Taken to mean that the decadent aristocratic classes in pre-revolutionary France knew the writing was on the wall, but mired in their comfort and apathy, chose to do nothing but the same-old, same-old.

Can you translate that quote for me? I can't find a translation for it. Thanks. It'll help to puncutate your comments.

http://www.worldlingo.com/en/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html

it translates to 'After us the flood'

I'm sorry, my words which you have quoted should have be written like this:
"Wouldn't you think your empires thought the same way, back then?"

It was more of a rhetorical question anyways...

i beleive that i answered your actual question at the end of my post. the rest of what i said was highlighting what i would think to be thee differences in old colonial empire building and the USA's current 'stratagy'

None of us are perfect. Empires of old made their mistakes, and unfortunately, America is making the same mistakes. I however, wouldn't say that just because we aren't 'learning from the past', doesn't mean that we are completely stupid.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=stupid

3 entries found for stupid.
stu·pid ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stpd, sty-)
adj. stu·pid·er, stu·pid·est
1 Slow to learn or understand; obtuse.
2 Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes.
3 Marked by a lack of intelligence or care; foolish or careless: a stupid mistake.
4 Dazed, stunned, or stupefied.
5 Pointless; worthless: a stupid job.

i would point you towards point 1 on that definition. slow to learn or understand. would you not say that is the current stat of affairs in the USA towards many thousands of years worth of fallen empires?

the old 'english' empire may no longer exist, but we still exist as a country, and a significant world power because we learnt from the past that trying to retain an empire was a silly thing to do. we cut our losses and pulled out, and so still exist, and perhaps even thrive(d) in the current enviroment.

Why cant our offspring nation, who has adpoted (or should we say ripped off, stolen, and then claimed to be theirs and no one elses) so much of our culture learn the same thing? that it is better to have an empire in allies than a traditional empire?

If you consider human nature, it is one of the human traits to want to desire to dominate something in some way, shape, or form. Competition is in our genes, as with all species. This will include imperialism being a form of competition ("My wank power is better than yours!").

it is indeed human nature to compete. but why compete in something which is doomed to failure?

why build a boat with no hull?

that is what the USA is doing atm, they are 'americanising' the world (as they see it), while actually they are isolating themselves further and further from the few genuine friends they have remaining :|

*grumbles*

...obviously didn't take history class seriously...

"Apres nous la deluge" spoken by the 'sun-king' Louis XV. Translates to "After us comes the flood". Taken to mean that the decadent aristocratic classes in pre-revolutionary France knew the writing was on the wall, but mired in their comfort and apathy, chose to do nothing but the same-old, same-old.


I take offense to the "obviously didn't take history class seriously" bit. I took classes that were based on worldwide standards of education (the International Baccalaureate Programme), and learned much history beyond American History. Nevetheless, I will let you be, as you do not respect a constructive discussion. Think what you may, I know where I stand. Keep in mind, you still hold respect in my eyes, enough to keep up a reasonable logical discussion.

Thanks anyway for the translation. It was something I haven't heard before. At the least, I'm open to learning new things constantly.

Why cant our offspring nation, who has adpoted (or should we say ripped off, stolen, and then claimed to be theirs and no one elses) so much of our culture learn the same thing? that it is better to have an empire in allies than a traditional empire?


If you recall from my first post, I did support a complete reformation of the current American society/culture and government policies.

In other words, I agree with you completely on this.


it is indeed human nature to compete. but why compete in something which is doomed to failure?

why build a boat with no hull?

that is what the USA is doing atm, they are 'americanising' the world (as they see it), while actually they are isolating themselves further and further from the few genuine friends they have remaining :|


Nice analogy, couldn't have put it better myself. Once again, I refer to my thoughts on reformation.

And you think that there are no black men or women in the British Government?

Until recently, the Home Secretary was a blind man. I guess that makes the UK ahead in fighting discrimination against the disabled.

oh great now its a race but instead of seeing who can build the most nukes we try to see who can have the most varitey of people *sigh* :D

I take offense to the "obviously didn't take history class seriously" bit. I took classes that were based on worldwide standards of education (the International Baccalaureate Programme), and learned much history beyond American History. Nevetheless, I will let you be, as you do not respect a constructive discussion. Think what you may, I know where I stand. Keep in mind, you still hold respect in my eyes, enough to keep up a reasonable logical discussion.

Thanks anyway for the translation. It was something I haven't heard before. At the least, I'm open to learning new things constantly.


Logic is vastly overrated. Linear thinking can get you only so far in life. You're welcome for the translation. Congrats on being an international baccalaureate. Good to hear that you're open to learning new things (constantly).

Didn't cover the French revolution, though...weird. What history did the international baccalaureates teach, if I might ask?

I think you're confusing logic with bias.


1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.
2.
1. A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
2. A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
3. The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.
3. Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.
4. The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's a certain logic to the motion of rush-hour traffic.
5. Computer Science.
1. The nonarithmetic operations performed by a computer, such as sorting, comparing, and matching, that involve yes-no decisions.
2. Computer circuitry.
3. Graphic representation of computer circuitry.


Whereas bias is:


bi·as Audio pronunciation of "bias" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bs)
n.

1. A line going diagonally across the grain of fabric: Cut the cloth on the bias.
2.
1. A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.
2. An unfair act or policy stemming from prejudice.
3. A statistical sampling or testing error caused by systematically favoring some outcomes over others.
4. Sports.
1. A weight or irregularity in a ball that causes it to swerve, as in lawn bowling.
2. The tendency of such a ball to swerve.
5. The fixed voltage applied to an electrode.


Although the I.B. programme does cover world history other than American history, keep in mind that in the given time that we have to study this (in regards to the required (and quite extensive) testing at the end of the programme, the administrators of the programme were forced to have to select certain things that were not studied. In my IB class, although we did study major revolutions throughout history, including the French Revolution, a good number of them were not given as much attention as certain others. ie: The French Revolution vs. the Cold War (which was one of our bigger studies). If we had studied the French Revolution more in depth, I would have most likely run across that phrase. It is possible, however, that the phrase was mentioned, but it has been almost four years since I've been in the programme. Unfortunately, some information was bound to have been forgotten, or stored deeply into the mind, to make room for newer information that is deemed more important at the time.

Also, I'm not sure about this, but I do believe the IB programme does try to somewhat centralize the studies of students from a particular country to study in greater detail events from that country, but that doesn't mean they disregard anything else that might have happened elsewhere in the world. I've not had the chance to talk to non-American IB students, but should I get the chance, I'll be sure to ask.

Keep in mind also that although studying everything in depth that history has to offer would be optimal for education, the time constraints are what limit us. Otherwise, I would have loved to learn the history of any nation, culture, people, event. In the limited free time I do have, I try to do just this. I will make the French Revolution a topic of more interest for future studies.

Any other historical events you could suggest? Thanks.

The Napoleonic Wars, in particular the peculiar practice of 'exporting revolution'. It sounds remarkably similar to what America is currently playing around with these days.

Logic is vastly overrated. Linear thinking can get you only so far in life. You're welcome for the translation. Congrats on being an international baccalaureate. Good to hear that you're open to learning new things (constantly).

Didn't cover the French revolution, though...weird. What history did the international baccalaureates teach, if I might ask?

I am also in the IB prgramme, but I am a sebior in HS, currently taking European History. We started our study with the French revolution of 1789, and just had our test on the revolutions of 1848 last Friday. I don't remember that quote. And I got an A on the test. Must've been an unimportant facet in the overall picture.

I do remember, however, that the European revolutionaries of the 18th and 19th centuries were concerned with getting two things for their nations: a constitution, and increased suffrage, generally in the form of UMS. The only nation that had those two things? The United States. Guess some bit of nation building was based on the US...

not being alive at the time of our empire, and indeed any time immediatly after it, i would not know.
The American Empire is the biggest in the world, with a population of some 4 million. The British Empire still has about 400,000 citizens and you could probably still argue that "the sun never sets" on British rule as we own islands all over the world. The French and Belgian Empires also still exist in a limited form.

perhaps you would get a better idea from speaking with an american gov't spokesman/woman :|

i would say though that just like america is doing now, the european 'superpowers' of the day justified empire building as 'gods work' for the nation as an excuse for land and resource grabbing. infact, just like america does today, just in slightly more diplomatic ways.
If you look at the history, Africa and India benefitted greatly from European rule, and if you look at most of the problems in the world today, you can see that most of its problems are caused by the Europeans pulling out too quickly. (Britain in India (Indo-Pakistan), Britain in Israel (Israel-Palestine) Britain in Africa (all of the civil wars), oh and speaking of Africa, the entire continent was destablised by the US during the Cold War when they funded the anti-Communist dictators to attack the Communist dicators and thereby wage a kind of pseudo-war against the USSR. Thanks for that.). I should also point out that America is not an Empire in the way Britain, France, Germany and even Belgian were. It does not control large areas of land, nor is it anywhere near as powerful as Britain was at the height of her Empire.

however, unlike america, we actually modernised and educated the populance of those countries we 'made' and then promptly took over. i will admit that because of the prevading religious beleifs at the time, they treatment of natives was not too great, but at least we build infrastructure, hospitals for sick natives, schools to educate them. we introduced new farming methods, new tools, and technology.
Errr... which countries are these? Do they even exist? I think not.

unfortuanatly when we kindly decided to hand back the countries we created, the natives had not learnt enough self control and hence a large portion of africa is in continual civil war :|
What the hell? The US never had any colonial interests in Africa, and as I said before the US was largely responcible for destablising Africa.

i would suggest that unlike current US policies, we did a damn fine job of bringing 'modern' life to otherwise 'primitive' people. whether that was a good thing or not, i cannot say.
As I said before, you did not do this, the European Imperial Powers did.

[qoute=The Shadow Lands]now, the eurpopean powers have gotten over our 'empire' days, and now seek peace with the world. we do not activly try to interfear with foriegn powers, nor do we threaten smaller nations with force of arms or trade embargos if they do not do what we want.[/quote]
We seek world peace? That's a rather naive view of Europe. I should also point out that the Empires would still exist today had it not been for World War II, they were given up merely over financial concerns, and the US refusal to give Britain Marshal aid certainly helped them on their way.

Typical American's are also increadably ignorent of the rest of the world. My Sociology teacher was on holiday in America once and when talking to two American guys in a lift, neither of them knew where Europe was or where Ireland was. And its not just an isolated case.


Someone once told me that Ireland is bad. That means it is. [/sarcasm]

*grumbles*

...obviously didn't take history class seriously...

"Apres nous la deluge" spoken by the 'sun-king' Louis XV. Translates to "After us comes the flood". Taken to mean that the decadent aristocratic classes in pre-revolutionary France knew the writing was on the wall, but mired in their comfort and apathy, chose to do nothing but the same-old, same-old.

Actually it was Loius XIV who was the sun king.

Someone once told me that Ireland is bad. That means it is. [/sarcasm]
No, he's not saying that someone made an assertion he agrees with and so therefore it's right, he's saying that someone's personal experience of America leads them to believe something and, having passed it on to Neo Cannen, Neo Cannen beliefs him as he has no reason to lie.

No, he's not saying that someone made an assertion he agrees with and so therefore it's right, he's saying that someone's personal experience of America leads them to believe something and, having passed it on to Neo Cannen, Neo Cannen beliefs him as he has no reason to lie.

Everyone is biased, you can't base your opinions on the the beliefs of others. You have to seek out your own or you just become like every other second-hander.

Yes I can imagine that easily, the only reson that there isn't is because there are more black people in america then in europe. Tell me can you imagine an arab in any important position in the US?


Your equivalence to the American Black person would be an Indian or pakisanian person woudln't it ? so... where are the Indians in your government.. and pakisani's ... Lord knows Britian has no shortage of them. But then they are the target of the massive discrimination there arn't they

And when did you give the blacks the vote, hm? Or abolish slavery? A long time after Britain, that's when.
Everyone is biased, you can't base your opinions on the the beliefs of others. You have to seek out your own or you just become like every other second-hander.
So you're saying that his Sociology teacher was biased and so he heard someone say something when actually he didnt? YOur arguments dont make sense, and your attempts to destroy his arguments are failing.

If you look at the history, Africa and India benefitted greatly from European rule, and if you look at most of the problems in the world today, you can see that most of its problems are caused by the Europeans pulling out too quickly.

i would have to agree that we pulled out too quickly. i have always maintained that had we stayed longer we could have sorted things out properly, buy hey, i was not even a twinkle in somones eye back then.

as for africa/asia benefiting from our rule, again, i totaly agree, and im sure the post you are quoting from or another one (i cant remember) states that we and other european powers did one hell of a lot for the native populations, even if we were still relativly harsh in their treatments.

(Britain in India (Indo-Pakistan), Britain in Israel (Israel-Palestine) Britain in Africa (all of the civil wars), oh and speaking of Africa, the entire continent was destablised by the US during the Cold War when they funded the anti-Communist dictators to attack the Communist dicators and thereby wage a kind of pseudo-war against the USSR. Thanks for that.).

i cannot disagre with you here, i never claimed to be the worlds greatest source of knowlage about african history. my point was that by leaving africa so quickly, europe left africa open to this sort of corruption, not that we directly caused it.

I should also point out that America is not an Empire in the way Britain, France, Germany and even Belgian were. It does not control large areas of land, nor is it anywhere near as powerful as Britain was at the height of her Empire.

I never said, or claimed anything like that ;?

i was drawing comparisons, and illustrating my point rather than saying 'the USA is exactrly like the european empires'

as for the USA's relative power, i would say they are even more powerful. they are one of the only superpowers of this age. what they cannot control by force of arms (the american marine forces are larger than the whole of the UKs armed forces for example), they control through threat of force of arms, economic manipulatings, and genreal cloak and dagger politics.

Errr... which countries are these? Do they even exist? I think not.

well, since africa was genreally not divided into countries untill the european armies arrived... i would suggest that most of lower and middle africa?

What the hell? The US never had any colonial interests in Africa, and as I said before the US was largely responcible for destablising Africa.

as i have said, i never said they did have interests in colonies in africa. i dont think i even said anything which could even be taken to mean that ;?

as above, i was drawing comparisons, nothing more.

As I said before, you did not do this, the European Imperial Powers did.

well, with me being european, by 'we', that is what i actually said :|

i think you are mistaking me as american, hence your confusion as to what i was talking about :|

[qoute=The Shadow Lands]now, the eurpopean powers have gotten over our 'empire' days, and now seek peace with the world. we do not activly try to interfear with foriegn powers, nor do we threaten smaller nations with force of arms or trade embargos if they do not do what we want.[/quote]


We seek world peace? That's a rather naive view of Europe. I should also point out that the Empires would still exist today had it not been for World War II, they were given up merely over financial concerns, and the US refusal to give Britain Marshal aid certainly helped them on their way.

compared to many other countries in the world today, yes, we do. we are tired of putting up with rubbish form the rest of the world, and want to settle down to finaly get around to sorting out ourselves, rather than the rest of the world. sure, we do not shirk our tasks with the UN, or in aiding the removal of disturbances in the world. though i would also like to point out that the majority of europe was against aiding the USA in iraq. though i bet america are glad we are there to calm things down when america decides that the best solution is to blow the hell out of everything, in 'traditional' american style.

while america was being rocketed and shot at, the UK and other european forces were having tea with the locals :| if this does not illustrate a difference in 'maturity', then i do not know what does :|

i would also agree that we gave the empire up for financial reasons, but unlike most other empires of the past, we actually geve them up, and survived, unlike those past empires. which was my point

And when did you give the blacks the vote, hm? Or abolish slavery? A long time after Britain, that's when.

So you're saying that his Sociology teacher was biased and so he heard someone say something when actually he didnt? YOur arguments dont make sense, and your attempts to destroy his arguments are failing.

No I'm saying that he his sociology teacher told him of only two american's who were clueless, and used this to paint all of America in a negative light. That to me is bias, to say the 2 represent the whole 280 mil.

(...)
Ack, misunderstanding. The only thing we disagree on is the relative power of the nations. Well, at the height of its power Britain controlled a large fraction of the world, and really was the dominant power. THere was once a war with Britain that lasted 1 hour before the opposing nation surrendered. The US, on the other hand, is having serious trouble just holding onto Iraq, a tiny part of former British controlled territory. They also do not have significant holdings abroad, nor are they considerably more powerful than Europe combined, nor China, nor possibly Russia and Japan is evry close economically. They really aren't all that powerful compared to the old empires.

No I'm saying that he his sociology teacher told him of only two american's who were clueless, and used this to paint all of America in a negative light. That to me is bias, to say the 2 represent the whole 280 mil.
He was using an example, and there have been studies that show a large percentage of Americans dont know / care about anything outside their state.

Id have to say if you want to force me to be with the Americans or against them just because your putting the challenge down.

And America is lucky Brazil didnt kick her arse late 19thC or Spain early 20thC

He was using an example, and there have been studies that show a large percentage of Americans dont know / care about anything outside their state.

I'm not refuting this, its pretty true from what I've seen. I'm saying its ridiculous to cite two people your sociology teacher met as a valid arguement. The studies however, are a valid arguement.

Ack, misunderstanding.

np :D

The only thing we disagree on is the relative power of the nations. Well, at the height of its power Britain controlled a large fraction of the world, and really was the dominant power. THere was once a war with Britain that lasted 1 hour before the opposing nation surrendered. The US, on the other hand, is having serious trouble just holding onto Iraq, a tiny part of former British controlled territory. They also do not have significant holdings abroad, nor are they considerably more powerful than Europe combined, nor China, nor possibly Russia and Japan is evry close economically. They really aren't all that powerful compared to the old empires.

again, i would suggest that the, shall we say, 'maturity' of the 2 nations has alot to do with the fact that england and europe kicked so much bum, and managed to hold onto, and indeed develop vast stretches of the world.

where europe genreally introduced things to a country, rather than just enforced its dominance, the USA just goes in and blindly opens fire.

again, i draw comparisons in the latest iraq campain. the european soldiers were there for a week, and basically became settled citizens with little trouble from locals. they got on with them, bought and sold stuff, chatted, had tea, all sorts to put them at ease.

compared with the USA, which basically kept as far apart from the civillians as possible, cruised about in massive tanks, trying to impress with power, rather than actually impress with sincerity. as soon as the UK and other european powers moved into once 'hostile to the US' areas, thing quietened down almost at once.

this i would also suggest is something to do with how the USA acts, and is perceived.

this greatly affects the 'war speed' factor you mentioned.

wile i do agree that at the hight, england could quite rightly claim to be the dominant power in the world, and was far ahead of even its closest rivals, it still had rivals who would not be too happy if england decided to flex its muscles too much.

the other european powers, while smaller, still had some conciderable power, and what with all the capitals and home countries being relativly close, it would not have been inconceivable for europe to band together against the UK if it tried to make a move.

this is, i would say, different to today and the USA. they are far removed from most of its 'enemies'. true, modern weapons and transport render this less impreative, but its still a factor.

as for 'closness of ''enemies'' ', i would say again that they are far ahead millitarily to most if not all of its enemies. even if all the nations of the world became allies against them (which i doubt would happen :D), i would say that the USA stood a very good chance against them.

Bah. America is no where near as good as Australia. You know why? Australia is better than America because Australians never talk up their own country.

Bah. America is no where near as good as Australia. You know why? Australia is better than America because Australians never talk up their own country.

Irony, anyone? :D

Reason nr.5 the Marshall-aid

Please don't tell me that you don't know what this is...
It was suggested in 1947, by George Marshall that the US start a program to help rebuild Europe. An economic crisis had to be averted to prevent Eurpoe from falling into the clammy hands of the Soviet Union. The Marshall-aid became the ikon of foreign-aid.


Was it necessary? You think so but I disagree. Some of the countries which didn't get any Marshall aid did fall into "clammy hands of the Soviet Union" but not all. And I don't believe Marshall aid would have saved e.g. Hungary from the iron curtain. Finland didn't get any aid and paid quite big compensations to USSR. And succeeded pretty well.


How can the USA be more diverse then europe?! We are 35 countries!(37 includin Russia and Turkey)
Which countries you excluded? :)
There are 42-49 countries in Europe. 42 if you exclude countries which are only partially in Europe.

Looked at a map and counted! :p Not a very good way of finding out you could say.


Your equivalence to the American Black person would be an Indian or pakisanian person woudln't it ? so... where are the Indians in your government.. and pakisani's ... Lord knows Britian has no shortage of them. But then they are the target of the massive discrimination there arn't they
I wouldn't know I'm from Ireland! :p
<<<< location

I'm not refuting this, its pretty true from what I've seen. I'm saying its ridiculous to cite two people your sociology teacher met as a valid arguement. The studies however, are a valid arguement.

I was citing my Socioloigy teacher as a starting point and then moved on to the studies. The example there was not the be all and end all.

But America did have colonial interests in Africa--of a sort. The Colony of Liberia was established on Africa's west coast. Why? Rather than attempting to integrate blacks into American society, many believed that it would be a better idea to ship them back to Africa--despite the fact that no slave in America had set foot in Africa (what with the Transatlantic Slavery Ban, which disallowed importation of blacks from Africa for the purpose of slavery) and no slave in America even spoke an African language. Most Americans who know this would also like to forget that at this time, the vast majority of "Northern" states didn't even allow blacks to be citizens (see the Dredd Scott Decision of the Supreme Court).

Your equivalence to the American Black person would be an Indian or pakisanian person woudln't it ? so... where are the Indians in your government.. and pakisani's ... Lord knows Britian has no shortage of them. But then they are the target of the massive discrimination there arn't they

No, on the whole they are integrated into society as far as they want to be. There are huge numbers of desi people in standard schools, and there are moslem schools and sikh schools. I don't know of any hindu schools. There are desi areas in a lot of towns and cities, and non-desi people live in them just like desi people live in areas that aren't specifically desi. One Home Secretary (robin cook was HS at the time anyone?) pointed out that our British national dish is Chicken Tikka Masala, a desi dish, and Brits of all colours regularly eat desi food. Desis both native and imported are very well represented in the medical, scientific and media industries.

MPs with desi looking names include:
Djanogly, Mr Jonathan (Con) Huntingdon
Dhanda, Mr Parmjit (Lab) Gloucester
Gill, Parmjit Singh (LD) Leicester South
Khabra, Mr Piara S (Lab) Ealing, Southall
Kumar, Dr Ashok (Lab) Middlesbrough South & East Cleveland
Mahmood, Mr Khalid (Lab) Birmingham, Perry Barr
Sayeed, Mr Jonathan (Con) Mid Bedfordshire
Singh, Mr Marsha (Lab) Bradford West
Vaz, Mr Keith (Lab) Leicester East

Lords and Ladies with desi looking names (this is the upper house):
Bhattacharyya Lord Labour
Desai Lord Labour
Dholakia Lord Liberal Democrat
Patel Lord
Patel of Blackburn Lord
Parekh Lord Labour

Of course not everyone with a desi name is desi, and not every desi has a desi name, but I think this gives an indication.

There is a far right political party in the UK, the BNP, that surfaces occasionally by hiding its racist agenda from casual voters. As long as people keep being reminded that the BNP are racist, as they were reminded by a recent TV documentary, people don't vote for them much or support their anti-desi views.

Oh shut up, Artallion... you nationalist ignorant.

I've nothing against America's "intent" of good individual ideals. Just people like you.

Oh shut up, Artallion... you nationalist ignorant.

I've nothing against America's "intent" of good individual ideals. Just people like you.
The thing is he did shut up, he made a thread and didn't come back and read it which is really annoying!

The thing is he did shut up, he made a thread and didn't come back and read it which is really annoying!
Ah, a weak one he is. How surprising.

Oh shut up, Artallion... you nationalist ignorant.

I've nothing against America's "intent" of good individual ideals. Just people like you.
It appears that Artallion is not even American?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8083584&postcount=40

Perhaps from Norway?? :eek:

The USA is a great country but I still prefer Britain as it is my home. Sorry.

A bit late in this game, but as an American, I feel the need to comment.

9 + 4 perfectly good reasons why the United States of America is the finest nation on the planet.

Only if you are at least the upper-middle class income wise.

Reason nr.1: Americans in general.

I work in retail. Amareicans in general are lazy, ignorant and selfish. I have to deal with this fact every day, while remaining nice and polite towards the guy who is going on a tirade because we don't stock a remote control that hasn't been made for 20+ years.

There are nice people, but the bad ones are what stick out the most.

That, in essence, is the problem between the US and the rest of the world right now - the skum floats to the top.

The others are bad news. Hussein, the Teheran ayatollahs, Taliban, Kim Jong Il of North Korea, Slobodan Milosevic. Are you with these guys or the US? Answer. Now.

Bit. Me.

Bush is a would-be tyrant who would be every bit as bad as any of those you mentioned if he weren't still limited - and he is working at weaking those limits every day.

FYI, at least 2 of those you mentioned were place and supported by the US. So long as they were attacking the "Great Red Scourge", we had no issue with them, but once we won the cold war, our own dogs turned on us and we were all pissy about it.

We reap that which we soe. Or sow. I forget.

Reason nr.3 Michael Moore

Eh. Never seen his stuff. I prefer Lewis Black and the Daily Show myself.

It took an american to make us laugh of all the silly americans. Not a frenchie, or a kraut, or a gook.

Yeah. Just keep on digging that hole. Because why bother being nice to other people when we are militarialy and economicaly strong enough to make them beg for more?

Reason nr.4 the constitution

U-hu. Remeber the part about slaves not having rights? But counting as 1/5 a person for representitive reasons. It's all noble intent, but it's the execution of those words that matter.

Remeber when Andrew Jackson tried to use the millitary to move vast numbers of Indians on a death march so he could take there land?

The Supreme Court ruled it an unconstituional act.

Jackson told them to try and stop him, and he proceded with the move, what we no know as the Trail of Tears.

Reason nr.4b the states

Ok. We have states. That makes us great how?

FYI, the states are no longer the equals of the federal goverment. That was the crux of the Civil War. The victory of the North ment that the Federal would hold power over the States.

Reason nr.5 the Marshall-aid

We gave them resources only to counter the Soviets. There was no great good intent there - mearly political manuverings.

Reason nr.6 Antirascism

Bull.

We are a very racist nation. Getting better, and I can't comment on other nations, but we are no paragons for sure.

After only one century, the nation was a model after which all other nations were built. Gotta love that.

What are you babbling about?

We are the basis for no nation that I know of - unless you count the ones we are 'rebuilding'.


Reason nr.9 Woody Allen

No fan of him.

1. After 225 years, the nation still has that "new-country-smell".

That's 'cause we are still a new country.

Some of their finest presidents were americans. *clever smile*

WTF?

So were the worst.

None of their current or previous leaders live in caves.

Oh -go- us.

If anyone ever teaches a monkey to drive, it'll probably be an american.

Hrm. A pointless waste of resources.

Yup, sounds our style.

Plus it would probably be a 'human safe' 'expendable ordinance delvery system' developed by the millitary.

That would really be our style.



I like this nation, but right now we look like the festering ass of the world, and I'm none to happy about it. The greatness of the past seems squandered today to me.

Your equivalence to the American Black person would be an Indian or pakisanian person woudln't it ? so... where are the Indians in your government.. and pakisani's ... Lord knows Britian has no shortage of them. But then they are the target of the massive discrimination there arn't they

How exactly is the number of people from ethnic minorities in your government a good way of judging how raceialy tollerant a nation is. Indeed, if a country holds up the fact that it has ethnic minority members in its government as proof it is not raceist smells very pungently of positive discrimination. Also, Britian has had both a Jewish and a female head of state (Disrallie and Thatcher) unlike America.