NationStates Jolt Archive

I just want to see whether people think Religion will end and if so how it will end. Personaly i think it will end and it'll end with a bang because people are passionate about it. But even so I think it is enevitablely going to end.



Sorry about any typo's I can't spell for jack

Everything will end, eventually. Most likely with either a bang or a fizzle.
Heat death for everything, or getting fried by the expansion of the sun if we haven't gotten off Earth. Or, alternatively, one of the many apocalypses dictated by religion.

Whichever way you go, it'll end, but I doubt religion will die out before the rest of humanity dies too.

a bang when the end comes

Why do you have two "it'll never end" options?

Well i'm a Athiest and if your an athiest and think it will never end you don't have to sound religious.

It will end, for a while, but when it does it will go out with such a big bang that it will destroy civilisation altogether, we get to start again. Seriously, god, whoever he/she may be toys with us, why do we have to have faith? Why not just live among him/her/it

I've Just seen some ones posted on the 'it'll end differently depending on what religion it is'. If the guy/ girl can is still on and doesn't mind just saying how you think certain (name them in short) will end and if they will

Bah, it will never end. Religions will shuffle around, gods come and go, but there will always be the believers. Maybe not so many, though.

Some religions will end sooner than others. I think Christianity will be all but gone within the next few centuries. Maybe some of the others will last longer.

It will definatley fizzle out, although there will probably be a few cults around for millenia. As science gets better and better, there will be less and less need for gods.

Religion will end when we do. As long as there are poeple, there will be religion. As I don't expect us to be around for much longer (couple hundred years tops), then there's you're answer. Religion, like us, will go out with a bang, but will finally end with a whimper.

Religion will end when we do. As long as there are poeple, there will be religion. As I don't expect us to be around for much longer (couple hundred years tops), then there's you're answer. Religion, like us, will go out with a bang, but will finally end with a whimper.

Why will we be gone in a couple of centuries?

It will fizzle out when people's interest in religions declines. It is related to the education level of the population. People will find other things to do.

I've just realised, this is the perfect place to put one of my favoutite quotes.

'Humanity can never atain perfection until the last stone from the last chapel falls on the last priest.'

It is related to the education level of the population.
I disagree. Many intelligent people belong to some religion or other.

Unfortunately as long as there are humans some/lots/most (?) of them will need to be told how to think or how to live their lives. Add a fair dose of inferiority feelings and fear of dying and you end up with a nicely irrational substrate for religion breeding.

Richard Dawkins, (www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/dawkins_24_5.htm , www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/dawkins.html) when asked what was his greatest fear for humanity at the end of the present millennium, answered "that there will still be theologians". I understand his fear. I also understand it is not to be abated.

Logically, here are the potential answers:
1) Yes, humans will transcend the need for belief
2) Yes, but only when humanity dies
3) No, humans will always believe in something, even if that something changes
4) Yes, but only because one proves itself to be a fact and will cease to be classified as a religion

Now logically, option (1) is highly unlikely, given that approximately 90% of humans follow some kind of religion. Given the answer to option (1) and the probability that humanity will die out some time, then (2) can be considered quite likely. If we ignore the fact that humanity will die (or if, potentially, we don't ever die out - which is possible, just not as likely as the other option), then (3) can be considered possible. Option (4) has little to no way of being verified until it occurs, and therefore, no conclusion can be drawn on its probability.

Therefore, the most logical answer is option (2), followed by (3).

It came in with a bang, it'll go out with a bang

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

-- "The Hollow Men" by TS Eliot

I just want to see whether people think Religion will end and if so how it will end. Personaly i think it will end and it'll end with a bang because people are passionate about it. But even so I think it is enevitablely going to end.

No, probably not in the forseeable future. There will probably always be those who need the comfort of believing in a higher power which cares about them. There is reason to believe that, to some degree, spirituality is hard-wired into the human nervous system.

Recent experiments using thermal imaging indicate that brain activity during a "transcendent" experience is highest in the limbic system, that part of the brain which is associated with emotions and motivation, and in the connecting hypothalamus, amygdala and the hippocampus. Neurobiologists Andrew Newberg and Eugene d'Aquili have conducted research in the field of "neurotheology" using brain imaging technology ( Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography, or SPECT for short ).

They suggest that "religion is intimately interwoven with human biology." Their studies of praying Franciscan nuns and meditating Buddhist monks reveal that certain religious experiences, like meditation and prayer, are linked to increased activity and changes in the structure of the brain and nervous system.

These experiments revealed that specific areas of the brain exhibited heightened activity during the climax of meditation or prayer. According to Newberg, "the human brain is genetically wired to encourage religious beliefs."

Logically, here are the potential answers:
1) Yes, humans will transcend the need for belief
2) Yes, but only when humanity dies
3) No, humans will always believe in something, even if that something changes
4) Yes, but only because one proves itself to be a fact and will cease to be classified as a religion

Now logically, option (1) is highly unlikely, given that approximately 90% of humans follow some kind of religion. Given the answer to option (1) and the probability that humanity will die out some time, then (2) can be considered quite likely. If we ignore the fact that humanity will die (or if, potentially, we don't ever die out - which is possible, just not as likely as the other option), then (3) can be considered possible.


This is a little off-topic, but I'm curious. Why you think it's a probability that humanity will die off?

Having read "Contact", I understand that, at least according to Carl Sagan, we're still definitely in the "marginal" category (it's unclear it we'll destroy ourselves). But a jump from being "unclear" to a being "probability" is a significant one. I'm curious as to why you believe this is the case.

If it's not 'god' or 'gods' it's aliens or something similar.
Very few people believe in nothing.

And I know a lot of Christian scientists, at my old school my dad was the only truly atheist science teacher, and of my group of scientifically minded friends only me and one other friend. (another friend and I....no that's not right it's the accusative...isn't it?)

Through my life I have come to discover many things about human minds. I have no degree in psychology and i'm only 15 years old. However, I do realize that beliefs never die. They don't even change, maybe exept for the name. Beliefs are often written in books or expressed in song or poem, or they are told through word of mouth. Once introduced into the population, like a virus it is not curable and does not die. Just 30 years ago we were in a cold war, a war against communism. Communism was denounced and in the US it was illegal to be a commie. However in only 30 years time communism has come back, even as we see the death of it. 60 years ago we fought a war against facism. Facism was suppressed for quite some time but there are still facists. Nazism was destroyed in world war II but is gaining popularity now. Racism has always existed no matter how much any of us don't like it and it always will. For every belief there is a time when it seems to die but it always comes back. Even today there are people who worship ancient Egyptian gods. I think religion got it right when they fortold of an afterlife. A penny will be dropped on a sidewalk and it matters not its insignificance it will always be picked up. And as such beliefs like religion will always live, ideas have their ups and downs but never can disappear altogther. Remeber death is just a beginning and everything in this world lives eternally one way or another.

Through my life I have come to discover many things about human minds. I have no degree in psychology and i'm only 15 years old. However, I do realize that beliefs never die. They don't even change, maybe exept for the name. Beliefs are often written in books or expressed in song or poem, or they are told through word of mouth. Once introduced into the population, like a virus it is not curable and does not die. Just 30 years ago we were in a cold war, a war against communism. Communism was denounced and in the US it was illegal to be a commie. However in only 30 years time communism has come back, even as we see the death of it. 60 years ago we fought a war against facism. Facism was suppressed for quite some time but there are still facists. Nazism was destroyed in world war II but is gaining popularity now. Racism has always existed no matter how much any of us don't like it and it always will. For every belief there is a time when it seems to die but it always comes back. Even today there are people who worship ancient Egyptian gods. I think religion got it right when they fortold of an afterlife. A penny will be dropped on a sidewalk and it matters not its insignificance it will always be picked up. And as such beliefs like religion will always live, ideas have their ups and downs but never can disappear altogther. Remeber death is just a beginning and everything in this world lives eternally one way or another.
Wow! Deep thoughts for one your age!

I have to disagree that beliefs never change though. My own have changed many times over the course of my 61 years, and I know many others whose beliefs have changed.

There will always be beliefs, true. But they change over time, usually being replaced by other beliefs.

This is a little off-topic, but I'm curious. Why you think it's a probability that humanity will die off?

Having read "Contact", I understand that, at least according to Carl Sagan, we're still definitely in the "marginal" category (it's unclear it we'll destroy ourselves). But a jump from being "unclear" to a being "probability" is a significant one. I'm curious as to why you believe this is the case.
Destruction of the universe, maybe?

I have to disagree that beliefs never change though. My own have changed many times over the course of my 61 years, and I know many others whose beliefs have changed.


Ditto this sentiment. Last summer, I was a very devoted practitioner of my tribal religion and an outspoken advocate against all things Christian.

But look at me now ... a Muslim. Crazy little world, eh?

Wow! Deep thoughts for one your age!

I have to disagree that beliefs never change though. My own have changed many times over the course of my 61 years, and I know many others whose beliefs have changed.

There will always be beliefs, true. But they change over time, usually being replaced by other beliefs.
I think he meant the belief itself does not change much. I really liked the penny analogy.

i continue having difficulty getting over how generally stupid atheists are. i must say that however much this may sound like lunitism or fanatisism or just plain idiocy to you, wut i'm about to say is based on fact, not just faith. all religions will end, excepting christianity, which will no longer be able to be classified as a religion, but rather as truth. they will end when all have heard the good news, and either accepted or denied it. then those who have earned their reward will no longer require religion, for the said truth will become their whole lives, and those who have refused to be saved will also have all laid plain before them, but they will not have the chance to repent. there will no longer be religion, but the truth christianity preaches will remain forever.

This is the nature of my disconnect.

I go to forums like this one and read so many people equate "religious" with "poorly educated". The implication is that the more educated one is, the less use one will have for "religion".

But then I look at the world around me. I look at the people I know who are not religious and have no use for religion, and who make fun of it. With very few exceptions, they have minimal education. Often they see no reason for education after high school, if that. Then I look at the people in my church. Higher education is strongly encouraged among the young, and among adults a bachelors degree is the norm. Some even pursue higher degrees.

Maybe I see a different world. Maybe I inhabit a world which isn't typical. Or maybe it's these people I find on the internet who aren't arguing from real world, and are instead from their own prejudices. I don't know them, so I can't say.

Ditto this sentiment. Last summer, I was a very devoted practitioner of my tribal religion and an outspoken advocate against all things Christian.

But look at me now ... a Muslim. Crazy little world, eh?
Yup! I've been dying to ask you this, but just never have ... what made you decide to become a Muslim?

This is the nature of my disconnect.

I go to forums like this one and read so many people equate "religious" with "poorly educated". The implication is that the more educated one is, the less use one will have for "religion".

But then I look at the world around me. I look at the people I know who are not religious and have no use for religion, and who make fun of it. With very few exceptions, they have minimal education. Often they see no reason for education after high school, if that. Then I look at the people in my church. Higher education is strongly encouraged among the young, and among adults a bachelors degree is the norm. Some even pursue higher degrees.

Maybe I see a different world. Maybe I inhabit a world which isn't typical. Or maybe it's these people I find on the internet who aren't arguing from real world, and are instead from their own prejudices. I don't know them, so I can't say.
I've met people from all walks of life, both in my various "careers" and in my personal life. The only conclusion I can draw is that religion is no respecter of either personality or educational level ( and probably lots of other dimensions as well ).

Some fundamentalists are dumb as bricks, but highly educated people also hold some of the same beliefs. If anything, it's the intensity of their beliefs which define people who are either deeply religious or deeply atheistic, not educational level or anything else I can discover.

Despite being a catholic I will try to argue this from an objective point of view.

Isn't it interesting that religion has sprung up quite independantly in many different places around the world. For example when the spanish moved to america they met the aztecs. The spanish were all christians but the aztecs (with no outside influence) had developed their own system of believe, once again built around all powerful gods.
I think that it's built into the human psyche. We need to believe that there's something more to life than we can see. Some people turn to science and claim that this has all the answers but surely this is just another kind of belief. Glorifying those few men through history who ahd the ability to think slightly more clearly than others until their exploits are world reknowned, such as Newton and Einstein.
However those that turn to religion believe their right simply because we can't comprehend anything else. We know that when we die our bodies rot in the ground, but what happens to our mind. As we can't physically explain conciousness how are we supposed to explain what happens to it. The human mind can't comprehend the void, complete nothing. This is why many people have problems with science. The classic opposition to the expanding universe. What is it expanding into? This refusal to accept that there can be nothing is built inot our culture and our mindsets so we need something to believe in. Many people turn to religion but everyone believes in something.

So back to the point. This is why as long as the human race exists so will religion. It will change and adapt as it always has done but it will always be there because it is necessary for the psychological health of the entire human race.

The human race is WEAK! But meh, if people want to believe something, why tell them they're wrong, as long as they're not actually doing anything wrong (getting into harm, putting others into harm, ringing my doorbell halfway through the movie, etc).

Anyway, religion won't die out. We've moved out of the age when everyone had to be christian into multicultural society. "Anyone can worship anything, what ever's good for them," it's the new train of thought apparently.

Yup! I've been dying to ask you this, but just never have ... what made you decide to become a Muslim?

A whole lot of factors that began with a seed planted while I was in Kuwait in '91 and led to a single moment of revelation. Yes, 'tis true, I had a deep and mind-altering spiritual experience that will forever change everything that was once me.

I suppose it's not that dissimilar from what the Christians call "born again".

The human race is WEAK!

Huh? The human race has survived natural disasters, plagues, pollution, famine, drought, ice ages, a Republican congress, and a whole host of things Allah has decided to throw at us over the last 100,000 years or so.

The human race may be a lot of things, but weak is not one of them.

I voted "it will fizzle out slowly". There will always be a few people who cling to religion, but I think sometime in the future they will be less than 1% of the world's population. I just don't think it'll happen for at least one and a half centuries.

Huh?Sorry! I wasn't clear, actually i'm beginning to recall that it might be a private joke, so very naughty of me to post it on a public forum.

It stems from an atheists argument that religion is merely a crutch that a weak person needs to lean on, relies on it for all their support. Whereupon it was most elegantly countered by the christian he was talking to simply saying "yes, so what? If it helps don't knock it."

I voted "it will fizzle out slowly". There will always be a few people who cling to religion, but I think sometime in the future they will be less than 1% of the world's population. I just don't think it'll happen for at least one and a half centuries.
Hopefully though it seems to be a crutch some people just need ... unless there is a change in psychology on a mass scale that makes people be able to live with reality Im not entirly shure it will go away

There will always be people who need a psychological crutch for dealing with things that are out of their control.

"What me worry ? "
Alfred E. Newman

Sorry! I wasn't clear, actually i'm beginning to recall that it might be a private joke, so very naughty of me to post it on a public forum.

It stems from an atheists argument that religion is merely a crutch that a weak person needs to lean on, relies on it for all their support. Whereupon it was most elegantly countered by the christian he was talking to simply saying "yes, so what? If it helps don't knock it."

Ooooh ... I see now. Okie. :)

I tend to respond to the "crutch" argument with, "Yes, but crutches are very useful. What have you got against crutches?"

I just want to see whether people think Religion will end and if so how it will end. Personaly i think it will end and it'll end with a bang because people are passionate about it. But even so I think it is enevitablely going to end.



Sorry about any typo's I can't spell for jack

I don't think religion will ever totally end. It plays to big of a part in our entire world.
P.S. You spelled "unfortunately" wrong on your poll.

Nah, religion would never die out. Not unless humans utterly dissapear.

I find usually religion exists mostly in places where people are suffering, poverty or in other words 'their in need of a savior', God that would help them out of their miserable pointless lives. A power out there in the universe controlling the fate or luck of the world.

Are they weak minded because they need a God? Nope, I don't believe so. The simple matter that they believe that there is a God out there who would help them would keep the going and eventually work their way out of the mess or indeed some God out there really sent out his blessing.

Hence America or Europe, where there is food abundance, people have welfare benefits, and are relatively happy have no need for a God.

I don't think religion will ever totally end. It plays to big of a part in our entire world.
P.S. You spelled "unfortunately" wrong on your poll.


And you used to instead of too, but let's not get two picky!

Hopefully though it seems to be a crutch some people just need ... unless there is a change in psychology on a mass scale that makes people be able to live with reality Im not entirly shure it will go away
That is so grossly ambiguous I just have to say something.

Reality, like truth, is relatively understood, limited in its scope to what little we perceive of it.

What may seem a crutch to people on the outside, who don't have the advantage of seeing a broader picture, may in fact be a foundation to people on the inside.

I believe that people who have never been religious cannot comment upon it's support system. It's not just a ritualistic institution, there's an entire community in every church. And so anyone who mocks religion as only crutch has to consider the fact that everyone turns to their friends in times of need.

I believe that people who have never been religious cannot comment upon it's support system. It's not just a ritualistic institution, there's an entire community in every church. And so anyone who mocks religion as only crutch has to consider the fact that everyone turns to their friends in times of need.
You forget that about 90% of us non religious types started out religious some even fervently so, you make it sound like we have no experience in what it is/was.

Hopefully though it seems to be a crutch some people just need ... unless there is a change in psychology on a mass scale that makes people be able to live with reality Im not entirly shure it will go away

Still don't think so. Not if you live in a really horrible place where nobody cares about you and nobody to feed you when your down.

Maybe thats why people commit suicide. If there is no God, there is more or less no hope that your life is going to get better is there?

You forget that about 90% of us non religious types started out religious some even fervently so, you make it sound like we have no experience in what it is/was.
There is a difference in "being religious" (which, in my opinion, cannot even begin to happen until the being makes a conscious choice) and participating in a religious community.

Hopefully though it seems to be a crutch some people just need ... unless there is a change in psychology on a mass scale that makes people be able to live with reality Im not entirly shure it will go away
Look at Europe. Religion is fast dieing out there. Same for certain parts of N. America. It looks like a trend to me. The more advanced a culture gets, the more it turns away from religion.

Still don't think so. Not if you live in a really horrible place where nobody cares about you and nobody to feed you when your down.

Maybe thats why people commit suicide. If there is no God, there is more or less no hope is there? That your life is going to get better?
Because I make it better … the realization that I am what makes the good times (that and other people around me … and a bit of luck) has made me feel more whole as a person then I have for years.
I don’t need to rely on someone I cant even tell if exists to do things for me

There is a difference in "being religious" (which, in my opinion, cannot even begin to happen until the being makes a conscious choice) and participating in a religious community.
I was “religious” until about the age of 18 (roughly)

I swallowed that roman catholic tripe whole … then things happened (not going into it right now what made me change) but started with a disbelief in the organization which spread into what they were preaching … and kept going from there.

Because I make it better … the realization that I am what makes the good times (that and other people around me … and a bit of luck) has made me feel more whole as a person then I have for years.
I don’t need to rely on someone I cant even tell if exists to do things for me

Thats a good positive thinking.

But it's near impossible when the odds are all stacked against you, from life-threatening diseases, extreme poverty, hunger and political instability. Where there is no escape from impending doom.

'Only God can save you now' situations.

You forget that about 90% of us non religious types started out religious some even fervently so, you make it sound like we have no experience in what it is/was.

If you read my post properly I merely refer to those who have had NO religious past. People who have NEVER been religious. Not people who gave up.

Although now you mention it, most people who claim to have been religious are talking about when they were children. Before they experienced it in their own right and only followed their parents. So in these cases they often don't have any experience.

I was “religious” until about the age of 18 (roughly)

I swallowed that roman catholic tripe whole … then things happened (not going into it right now what made me change) but started with a disbelief in the organization which spread into what they were preaching … and kept going from there.
See, now, early adulthood is the age where I would place that conscious decision to participate in the religion, as well as in the religious community.

EDIT: It is also the moment when people begin to explore their religion, ask questions about why it is the way it is, and begin to find answers.

Thats a good positive thinking.

But it's near impossible when the odds are all stacked against you, from life-threatening diseases, extreme poverty, hunger and political instability.
Have been homeless have been ill ... been stabbed (collapesed one lung and partialy the other) and yet still better then the deperssing immage I end up with from roman catholosizm (mainly I think of orgainized religion when talking about religion ... I know that is a flaw but please take into account my disalusionment in the organization to what I say)

See, now, early adulthood is the age where I would place that conscious decision to participate in the religion, as well as in the religious community.
But that does not mean I dont have knoledge of what belief is (which was the origional reason I posted) I may have chose not to follow eventualy but I BELIEVED whole heartedly

Only with the education of the seething, barbarian masses in the middle east and the united states.

If you read my post properly I merely refer to those who have had NO religious past. People who have NEVER been religious. Not people who gave up.

Although now you mention it, most people who claim to have been religious are talking about when they were children. Before they experienced it in their own right and only followed their parents. So in these cases they often don't have any experience.
I apologize what I took from it was that you were implying those that do not believe now never believed.

And you are right that adolescence is the time of choices … I started to see the major flaws and contradictions inherent (mostly in the organization) and the hypocrisy of the 3 parishes I belonged too over my religious phase drove me nuts. But its not what drove me away … merely a motivating factor to think and question the world around me … the world I found to have a lot more questions then answers

I am not saying there is not a deity out there, not sure If I can know, but if so I have started to become pretty sure he wont be found in an organization that limits who and what he can be and who and what his followers can think he/she/it can be.

Only with the education of the seething, barbarian masses in the middle east and the united states.
True. A good secular education is key in breaking people of their religion addiction.

But then I look at the world around me. I look at the people I know who are not religious and have no use for religion, and who make fun of it. With very few exceptions, they have minimal education. Often they see no reason for education after high school, if that. Then I look at the people in my church. Higher education is strongly encouraged among the young, and among adults a bachelors degree is the norm. Some even pursue higher degrees.
I am a long-term atheist pursuing a PhD. Obviously, doctoral studies are so minimal in this day and age, especially compared with the ridiculously advanced studies all you Christians must be involved in. Bachelor's degrees are becoming the norm here among people from all walks of life - oops, sorry, they must all be Christians, obviously, because that's your perception. That's why, as well as their studying, they go out and get drunk and have random sex - exactly what the Lord taught! (I am not judging them for this; I just don't think that it's entirely compatible with Christianity - therefore, I doubt that an awful lot of them are actually real Christians, if Christians at all). Anyway, my apologies for not realising my own stupidity.

Arrogrant, self-righteous twat.

Religion can't end. It was brought into existence to explain why certain events happen. Early in the age of man, people worshipped the Sun, because they did not understand what it was. For some reason Christians worship a carpenter who lived 2000 years ago.

Religion is the end all explanation for something that our minds cannot grasp. People hold onto the idea that there is a higher being watching over us, because it gives them a sense of security. They hold onto that idea like a child to its blanket.

"Well how do miracles happen then?"

I don't know, but there is a physical explanation for it. We as people have not yet discovered it.

I am a long-term atheist pusuing a PhD. Obviously, doctoral studies are so minimal in this day and age. My apologies for not realising my own stupidity.

Arrogrant, self-righteous twat.
I am agnostic

Got 1 masters in network modeling and going for my second one right now in computer information security

(I am 22 by the way if that matters)

We are defiantly the un educated masses that chose not to go to school after high school
(Does he not know that all generalizations are wrong?)

(and I figured I would add before someone pointed it out … yes I know that was a joke)

Religion can never end, not entirely.
Philosophers have debated this for centuries, but even the most fervent atheists like Nietzsche (god is dead) believed it would stay on; wherever there is a question unanswered there will be a spiritual answer. And those of you who think that science will exterminate religion: you're wrong! Look at history ladies and gentlemen: in the Age of Enlightenment people thought they knew it all. The secrets of life were to be unravelled. But this was followed by the Romantic Era and the Gothic movement as well as a great rise in Church attendance as people sought to look for the Mystery in life rather than dissection of essence. They looked to be part of something greater than themselves, greater than the arrogance of man... The Church may wither, but it will never die. Whether you like that or not is your own problem.

Religion can never end, not entirely.
Philosophers have debated this for centuries, but even the most fervent atheists like Nietzsche (god is dead) believed it would stay on; wherever there is a question unanswered there will be a spiritual answer. And those of you who think that science will exterminate religion: you're wrong! Look at history ladies and gentlemen: in the Age of Enlightenment people thought they knew it all. The secrets of life were to be unravelled. But this was followed by the Romantic Era and the Gothic movement as well as a great rise in Church attendance as people sought to look for the Mystery in life rather than dissection of essence. They looked to be part of something greater than themselves, greater than the arrogance of man... The Church may wither, but it will never die. Whether you like that or not is your own problem.
Correction there is a spiritual hypothesis (well can be concidered an answer too ... nothing says that answers have to be right or wrong)
And past performance of the church is no garontee in the future
I see religion continuing too but not nessisarly in the forms currently practiced (over the long run) and organized religons are to easy to disprove origional documents and beliefs that a lot of it will eventualy go away
But being agnostic there is no way to disprove a general diety that you dont tie down to having done specific events or created specific people on specific dates

There will always be people who need a psychological crutch for dealing with things that are out of their control.


This is another argument where I experience a disconnect. The "crutch" argument, where I supposedly turn to God because I can't deal with life.

Heh. If only! My religion is constantly beating me down. I am constantly reminded that I am not actually "good enough", and that being "good enough" is an impossibility. I am shown that I fail every day, often before breakfast. I am reminded that there is a Lord and Master of this Universe, who isn't obligated to do what I say or follow my agenda.

In fact, following Christ makes my life harder. It would be so much easier to not live under the burden of having to serve and love Christ and serve and love others. It would be so much easier to be able to believe that I am "good enough". It would be so much easier to not have to live with the expectations Christ puts upon me. It would all be easier if I could turn away, but I've experience too much and know too much to turn away.

As far as I'm concerned, you non-religious people have it easy.

This is another argument where I experience a disconnect. The "crutch" argument, where I supposedly turn to God because I can't deal with life.

Heh. If only! My religion is constantly beating me down. I am constantly reminded that I am not actually "good enough", and that being "good enough" is an impossibility. I am shown that I fail every day, often before breakfast. I am reminded that there is a Lord and Master of this Universe, who isn't obligated to do what I say or follow my agenda.

In fact, following Christ makes my life harder. It would be so much easier to not live under the burden of having to serve and love Christ and serve and love others. It would be so much easier to be able to believe that I am "good enough". It would be so much easier to not have to live with the expectations Christ puts upon me. It would all be easier if I could turn away, but I've experience too much and know too much to turn away.

As far as I'm concerned, you non-religious people have it easy.

Good cause I am sure he wanted his love to be a burden :p

All good reasons not to waste my one life I have in such a manner

Why you think it's a probability that humanity will die off?
Numerous reasons.

If we follow global trends, as many as 50,000 species die off a year. That's around 136 a day.
Given an outside estimate of 30 million plant and animal species on the planet, that gives an estimated time-frame of 600 years before they're all dead.

If we ignore that pressing fact, then we move on to the next known "pending doom", we have the sun expanding and destroying earth (and then eventually exploding). Luckily, we have projections of what our technological status will be like then - we should be living in underwater colonies on Jupiter's moon Io. However, this relies on a continuous technological expansion based on current trends. If we were to rewrite history according to the trends before the dark ages, we'd already have space colonies by now.
So if there are any unforeseen future dark ages, we'll quite possibly be screwed.

And then there's the third and final near-certain known "pending doom", which is the end of the universe. The current big bang theory actually does suggest that for some ultimately quantum reason, the universe has a maximum size it will expand to, before swinging back into itself, eventually bringing its edges together in one tiny ball, and swinging out through the other side into an inverse universe. Presuming we live long enough to be there then, then the universe's end will destroy us, and some new universe will spring up with the probability of a new species.

Now we move down from the "knowns" and move into the "probables".

Excluding natural forces, it's quite likely that we'll destroy ourselves through war. Despite our "civilised" veneer, we're idiots. In the past 5 years, I believe this has been proven quite successfully, because for all our social and technological advances, we're still embroiled in stupid wars (and we have 3 new targets for increased hostilities, in case anyone was not aware yet - Iran, Syria and North Korea). So, it's quite likely that someone will do something stupid and cause us to kill ourselves, whether by quickly scrubbing all life out through nuclear armagedon, or by a slow and painful war that eventually brings us to non-sustainably low levels.

Then you have a very interesting possibility - that something else decides to wipe us out. If we use the Drake Equation, then we can estimate a probability of 1 (100% probability) that there are other intelligent civilisations existing on other planets. Assuming that they find us, then they will be further advanced technologically than we are, and therefore, able to destroy us.

And finally, you have the "pending doom" which cannot be assigned a probability:
Assuming that one religion is correct, human civilisation will be destroyed in some manner, by whatever eschaton that religion proposes. Even given the cyclical religions (like Hinduism and Buddhism), humanity would eventually be destroyed and remade.

His love? No, that isn't a burden. That's probably the one thing that sustains me. Really, it's my love that's the burden. Because I love God, I don't want to let Him down.

Of course, you seem to be under the impression that love is expressed by always making things easy for the other person. Is that the case? Certainly love should be unconditional. But parents are not loving their children very well if they always make things easy for them. Even with romantic love, I'm not going to be very successful if I try to solve all of her problems, or if I never make her work for it. In fact, such an approach will likely cause her to lose interest and run away.

So this begs the question: do you see an idyllic life as the highest form of living?

No, deffinetedly not.

His love? No, that isn't a burden. That's probably the one thing that sustains me. Really, it's my love that's the burden. Because I love God, I don't want to let Him down.

Of course, you seem to be under the impression that love is expressed by always making things easy for the other person. Is that the case? Certainly love should be unconditional. But parents are not loving their children very well if they always make things easy for them. Even with romantic love, I'm not going to be very successful if I try to solve all of her problems, or if I never make her work for it. In fact, such an approach will likely cause her to lose interest and run away.

So this begs the question: do you see an idyllic life as the highest form of living?
Never said love is something that lightens a load ... though it is nice when it does (somehow loving my ex did ... so I guess her love made me feel better then gods) but in general if having to worship something that we still dont know is true is going to cause undo strain on my life I would not want it in my life

I vote go out with a bang. Most people will not understand this verse unless they are thinking by the Holy Spirit.

I Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

It is what happens in the end for those who believe in Jesus Christ. The eternity in our hearts will come to the surface and we will be completed whole, because the Truth is revealed.

I John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

How can worshiping undo strain?

You live in fear of going to hell

It doesn't matter if there is a diety out there, where or whatever kind it might be. It doesn't matter if the deity is "real", or if evidence is ever found. No offense intended to you personally, but rejecting a religion because the deity is not "real" is a bit silly. Religion is not about the deity.

Religion is one side of a coin. All anyone has of a deity is a concept of deity; that's all that is required. Some people abstract the concept as something external to themselves, some recognize it as internal; it doesn't matter. Either way, the result of religion is the same. Religion is the relationship that a person builds to that concept. The other side of the coin --the participation of the deity in this relationship --is taken on faith. Churches and rites, myths and saints, bells and whistles, are all window-dressing. They are designed to put the consciousness into a state of mind receptive to participating in that relationship.

As I see it, the relationship, unlike human relationships, is not about what you get out of it, it's about what you put into it. You're never going to get anything "real" from a relationship with a concept of deity; for those who turn away from religion because god isn't real, I have to wonder, what did they expect to get? (What is apparently got is usually something a person gave themselves, and then gave deity the credit --no harm there, as long as it is recognized that deity is used as a metaphor for the person's own abilities --or attributable to coincidence.) Any religious process that expects to get something in return for giving is missing the point. Think about it --what use is such a one-sided relationship?

The answer seems obvious to me, though some people dismiss it as unimportant. The relationship helps shape ones consciousness. Conscious participation in 'the good', conscious participation in 'the right', conscious participation in life. It is far from unimportant --it is of primary importance, because consciousness is "I" and that participation directly shapes who we are.

Where is Iakeokeo when we need him?

Numerous reasons.

If we follow global trends, as many as 50,000 species die off a year. That's around 136 a day.
Given an outside estimate of 30 million plant and animal species on the planet, that gives an estimated time-frame of 600 years before they're all dead.


The most liberal estimate I have heard it hitting only 27k a year … (54 percent of your answer)
(not saying it is not bad just that your stat is off therefore your calculation)
Also have not found anything to back up your 30 mill stat but I digress



If we ignore that pressing fact, then we move on to the next known "pending doom", we have the sun expanding and destroying earth (and then eventually exploding). Luckily, we have projections of what our technological status will be like then - we should be living in underwater colonies on Jupiter's moon Io. However, this relies on a continuous technological expansion based on current trends. If we were to rewrite history according to the trends before the dark ages, we'd already have space colonies by now.
So if there are any unforeseen future dark ages, we'll quite possibly be screwed.

And what is your estamate of the sun expantion timescale? the best I have heard is in the BILLIONS of years ... if humans are still around by then I would think we got farther then Jupiter (not to mention it is not reliable to perdict things that far in the futre ... not by the long run)


And then there's the third and final near-certain known "pending doom", which is the end of the universe. The current big bang theory actually does suggest that for some ultimately quantum reason, the universe has a maximum size it will expand to, before swinging back into itself, eventually bringing its edges together in one tiny ball, and swinging out through the other side into an inverse universe. Presuming we live long enough to be there then, then the universe's end will destroy us, and some new universe will spring up with the probability of a new species.


Also heat death theory with no contraction


Now we move down from the "knowns" and move into the "probables".

Excluding natural forces, it's quite likely that we'll destroy ourselves through war. Despite our "civilised" veneer, we're idiots. In the past 5 years, I believe this has been proven quite successfully, because for all our social and technological advances, we're still embroiled in stupid wars (and we have 3 new targets for increased hostilities, in case anyone was not aware yet - Iran, Syria and North Korea). So, it's quite likely that someone will do something stupid and cause us to kill ourselves, whether by quickly scrubbing all life out through nuclear armagedon, or by a slow and painful war that eventually brings us to non-sustainably low levels.

You count perdictions of technology in the billions of years as "knowns" but war as an un known ... a bit backwards me think (I mean we cant perdict exactly what will happen but general trends in the short term are a lot more reliable)

Then you have a very interesting possibility - that something else decides to wipe us out. If we use the Drake Equation, then we can estimate a probability of 1 (100% probability) that there are other intelligent civilisations existing on other planets. Assuming that they find us, then they will be further advanced technologically than we are, and therefore, able to destroy us.

And finally, you have the "pending doom" which cannot be assigned a probability:
Assuming that one religion is correct, human civilisation will be destroyed in some manner, by whatever eschaton that religion proposes. Even given the cyclical religions (like Hinduism and Buddhism), humanity would eventually be destroyed and remade.

but in general if having to worship something that we still dont know is true is going to cause undo strain on my life I would not want it in my life

Very true. If Christ was not real, I'd want no part of Christianity. But because I've experienced Him, because I know Him to be true, there's just no way I could turn away from Him.

If we follow global trends, as many as 50,000 species die off a year. That's around 136 a day.
Given an outside estimate of 30 million plant and animal species on the planet, that gives an estimated time-frame of 600 years before they're all dead.
Odd. Are you also taking into account the number of new species created each year?

You've experienced Christ? That's a first...

How can worshiping undo strain?

You live in fear of going to hell

Absolutely untrue. I have no fear of going to hell. In fact, I'm fairly certain that you have more fear of going to hell than I do.

Religion will end with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. When we see Him face to face there will be no more need of churches, etc.

Very true. If Christ was not real, I'd want no part of Christianity. But because I've experienced Him, because I know Him to be true, there's just no way I could turn away from Him.
Oh really anything that is not subjective experience/truth?

What's the point spread on rapture?

Religion will end with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. When we see Him face to face there will be no more need of churches, etc.
there are already no need for them :p other then human emotion

Oh really anything that is not subjective experience/truth?

No. There is no way that I know of to logically prove my experience to you. That is a frustration, that I can't prove what I have experienced to be true. I'm comfortable with that for my own sake, but I do wish you could know what I know.

What's the point spread on rapture?
20-1 (heat death ahead by a long shot)

No. There is no way that I know of to logically prove my experience to you. That is a frustration, that I can't prove what I have experienced to be true. I'm comfortable with that for my own sake, but I do wish you could know what I know.
And I wish you could know what I know

And I wish you could know what I know

Which would be?

If we follow global trends, as many as 50,000 species die off a year. That's around 136 a day.
Given an outside estimate of 30 million plant and animal species on the planet, that gives an estimated time-frame of 600 years before they're all dead.

Except it won't work quite like that. The species currently becoming extinct are mostly those in vulnerable habitats, i.e. those threatened by human activity. The rate will start to drop off, once they're all dead. Rabbits, for example, aren't in much danger of dying off in the next 600 years, except through a major cataclysm or systematic extermination.

Luckily, we have projections of what our technological status will be like then - we should be living in underwater colonies on Jupiter's moon Io.

Uh? How will we do that? There isn't any water on Io.

Which would be?
Do you really want me to try ... it is subjective as religion is (things like knoledge of strenghts and weeknesses and self reliance and not being tied down or even the stress relief once I finaly found out what I am that helped ... so on and so forth)

not saying it isent just got into this whole thing because people keep implying that I cant be happy without religion

Uh? How will we do that? There isn't any water on Io.
Maybe he meant Europa.

Io's the pizza one. :)

20-1 (heat death ahead by a long shot)

Then gimme a sawbuck on rapture. You know my great-great-great-great grandkids will be good for it in the event of heat death.

Then gimme a sawbuck on rapture. You know my great-great-great-great grandkids will be good for it in the event of heat death.
I think you need a few more greats in there

Do you really want me to try ... it is subjective as religion is (things like knoledge of strenghts and weeknesses and self reliance and not being tied down or even the stress relief once I finaly found out what I am that helped ... so on and so forth)

not saying it isent just got into this whole thing because people keep implying that I cant be happy without religion

So you admit that neither of us have proof? Well, at least you're farther along, logically speaking, than most nonreligious folk I encounter.

Like I've been saying, religion isn't something you get into because it makes you happy. It's not something you get into to make your life better. You get into religion simply because it is what you believe.

Really religion, stripped away from the trappings of ritual and liturgies and doctrine, is belief. It is faith. It is a starting point, a set of things taken axiomatically and alogically. This core is the starting point from which all human thought and logic proceeds. Without it, there is no rational human thought at all.

So you admit that neither of us have proof? Well, at least you're farther along, logically speaking, than most nonreligious folk I encounter.

Like I've been saying, religion isn't something you get into because it makes you happy. It's not something you get into to make your life better. You get into religion simply because it is what you believe.

Really religion, stripped away from the trappings of ritual and liturgies and doctrine, is belief. It is faith. It is a starting point, a set of things taken axiomatically and alogically. This core is the starting point from which all human thought and logic proceeds. Without it, there is no rational human thought at all.
hence why I am agnostic (though I was not arguing proof of Ideas rather proof of subjective feelings ... but either way)
and I see the logic in diesm but geting specific I just dont see a way to know (dont see a way to know if there is anything at all)

Again why I am agnostic

The most liberal estimate I have heard it hitting only 27k a year … (54 percent of your answer)
(not saying it is not bad just that your stat is off therefore your calculation)
Also have not found anything to back up your 30 mill stat but I digress
I was pulling stats off google. Supposedly the extinction rate's picking up. And the estimate was between 10 mill and 30 mill species - but I used the higher end.

And what is your estamate of the sun expantion timescale? the best I have heard is in the BILLIONS of years ... if humans are still around by then I would think we got farther then Jupiter (not to mention it is not reliable to perdict things that far in the futre ... not by the long run)
Firstly, yes I know it's in the billions - I'm just posting the inevitable dooms we have to face, followed by possibles and then the one of unknown probability.

Likewise, I believe I stated in my post that it's not reliable to predict such things.

Also heat death theory with no contraction
Go on? This is something I'm not familiar with.

You count perdictions of technology in the billions of years as "knowns" but war as an un known ... a bit backwards me think (I mean we cant perdict exactly what will happen but general trends in the short term are a lot more reliable)
No, I was counting the sun expanding as a known, since it follows natural forces, but destruction of the race via war is only a possible, not a certainty.
You seem, therefore, to have missed the point.

Odd. Are you also taking into account the number of new species created each year?
Are there any? I believe that we've only ever encountered 1 or 2 known speciations, and those were artificially induced. We don't know how many are created each year.

Except it won't work quite like that. The species currently becoming extinct are mostly those in vulnerable habitats, i.e. those threatened by human activity. The rate will start to drop off, once they're all dead. Rabbits, for example, aren't in much danger of dying off in the next 600 years, except through a major cataclysm or systematic extermination.
Actually, no that's not entirely true. One species which will be dead within the next century is the banana. You want to know why it'll die off? Because we overbred it. No longer can produce seeds.
Species die because of vulnerability, but also due to destabilised ecosystems (which is not necessarily anything to do with us), random chance, and numerous other factors.
However, as you say, the majority will be caused due to our actions, so if it goes too far, the entire planetary ecology will be so wacked, many things will lose their prey. What happens if all our livestock die because we screwed the planet over? We die too.

Uh? How will we do that? There isn't any water on Io.
Sorry, yes Willamena's right - Europa's the one I meant. It's currently frozen, but it'll melt as the sun expands.

It will NEVER end!
Let Us Pray!
God Bless! :)

I think you need a few more greats in there

Hey, I got better things to do than sit around typing great all day. Excuse me, I'm late for an appointment to make jokes in the hot dog thread.

Are there any? I believe that we've only ever encountered 1 or 2 known speciations, and those were artificially induced. We don't know how many are created each year.
13,000 new species a year, according to Science World Magazine.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1590/is_9_55/ai_55183060

EDIT: Okay, not created but discovered.

Ahh, yes - discovered. Somewhat different, isn't it?

Go on? This is something I'm not familiar with.



Boils down to insufficient mass to cause a gravitational contraction of the universe theory is that over a sufficient period of time the universe (which is currently expanding) will spread out so far that matter/energy is spread over such a large area that eventually even energy concentration is to low to hold together atoms themselves (by energy I mean forces such as the strong force and week as well)

I can look up some information on it … though a good (but sometimes depressing book … though it is fictional) that covers it fairly well is time by Stephen Baxter (though fictional he holds a PHD in both physics and astrophysics)

I will find some non fictional stuff to peruse.

Ahh, yes - discovered. Somewhat different, isn't it?
It is still a statistic that is not accounted for in yours (they estimate as much as 40 million species as yet undiscovered).

Ignorance is bliss.

I, personally, found it much easier to believe in a Christ-type delivering himself up for the ultimate sacrifice to ultimately save me from myself, and therefore bring me from the depths of hell into heaven. But I am no longer Christian, not because I became disillusioned, or "gave up" as it has been put forth on this thread, but because I made a conscious decision that while God may or may not exist, logic suggests that he doesn't.

It is much easier to believe in an after-life and thus a heaven and hell then to believe that everything is over when you die. Life has a much greater value, and a much greater lesson to teach us. Besides, why should I obey the commandments of a God when my only motivation is to be rewarded instead of punished? This is a very simple and childish way to view morality. Kohlberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development) suggests this is an early form of moral reasoning.

Christianity, it seems, believes only in the natural, inherent evil of mankind. We are all sinners, thanks in part to our early parents (Adam and Eve) who went against God's commandments for them. I on the other hand, see that people are inherently good and will protect each other even when there is nothing to gain, which suggests a higher moral code of ethics.

Be aware that "spiritual" experiences happen on a daily basis. Not necessarily suggesting the existence of God, Jesus Christ, or even a spirit or soul. The temporal lobe is capable of generating these experiences, and does so on a semi-frequent basis. Every time I read the ending of Stephen King's IT, I get the same feeling that I used to get from going to church and feeling the "Holy Ghost."

Feeling fear over our eventual death and perhaps our lack of existence afterwards is a natural human experience. I dare say that every human alive and dead has experienced this fear. Death is an unknown. It is okay to be afraid of something we don't know about.

Theory #1:
1 Men are logical creatures, made in the image of God.
2 God is not logical, and can bend and break nature's laws.
3 If Men are logical, but God is not, Men cannot be made in his image.
4 If Men aren't made in the image of God, then this simple statement (upheld by all Christian religions) is false and the Bible is a lie.

I've read a little on Memetic theory, and it seems to explain quite a lot about religions in general. To read more on Christianity and Memetic theory Click Here (http://www.christianitymeme.org/).

Boils down to insufficient mass to cause a gravitational contraction of the universe theory is that over a sufficient period of time the universe (which is currently expanding) will spread out so far that matter/energy is spread over such a large area that eventually even energy concentration is to low to hold together atoms themselves (by energy I mean forces such as the strong force and week as well)

I can look up some information on it … though a good (but sometimes depressing book … though it is fictional) that covers it fairly well is time by Stephen Baxter (though fictional he holds a PHD in both physics and astrophysics)

I will find some non fictional stuff to peruse.
Ahhh, I see. No I get the idea. Hawking (currently) disagrees, but it's sound.

It is still a statistic that is not accounted for in yours (they estimate as much as 40 million species as yet undiscovered).
Estimates vary. And it's not a statistic proven to be high enough to have an effect either. ;) As I said before - it's only been observed once or twice, and it was artificially induced.

well well, look what you can stumble across on these forums.....my good ol' friend cru....er...redy yellow flames...is this thread a kind of subliminal message saying you'd like religion to end, by any chance, Wal...redy yellow flames?

The last willing members of the Abrahamic Political Regime will commit mass suicide.

200 years later Marvel comics will introduce The Amazing Adventures of Jesusman!