NationStates Jolt Archive

Specificly the intolerant asses on this board who spawn biggotry and hate in the name of the Lord. I myself am a fairly liberal Catholic, and it appals me when people use the name of Christ to support their irrational hatred of gays, jews and the like. These people claim to be Christian, but they are not. What ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did not Jesus promote tolerance? Religion-based biggotry is the greatest hypocracy there is.

I agree with your idea that the "Christian Right" is rather unChristian, but while I dislike them I don't really hate them.

Specificly the intolerant asses on this board who spawn biggotry and hate in the name of the Lord. I myself am a fairly liberal Catholic, and it appals me when people use the name of Christ to support their irrational hatred of gays, jews and the like. These people claim to be Christian, but they are not. What ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did not Jesus promote tolerance? Religion-based biggotry is the greatest hypocracy there is.I try not to hate, but I get your point. But there are always people who twist goodness into hatred or wrong, in every group/religion/field.

Specificly the intolerant asses on this board who spawn biggotry and hate in the name of the Lord. I myself am a fairly liberal Catholic, and it appals me when people use the name of Christ to support their irrational hatred of gays, jews and the like. These people claim to be Christian, but they are not. What ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did not Jesus promote tolerance? Religion-based biggotry is the greatest hypocracy there is.
the Bible says "love thy neighbor" in one place. it has pages and pages of encouragement for war, murder, slavery, violence, rape, and genocide. a person who truly believes the Bible is the word of God would not be illogical for supposing that the few incidental luvy-duvy bits were editorializations or type-os, while the violence, cruelty, and righteous slaughter are the actual Will of God.

How can you be a liberal and a Catholic? Liberalism promotes sodomy, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, atheism, and pronography, which all go against our Holy Mother Church.

Specificly the intolerant asses on this board who spawn biggotry and hate in the name of the Lord. I myself am a fairly liberal Catholic, and it appals me when people use the name of Christ to support their irrational hatred of gays, jews and the like. These people claim to be Christian, but they are not. What ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did not Jesus promote tolerance? Religion-based biggotry is the greatest hypocracy there is.

I agree.

Have you ever noticed when "Christians" go on a rampage about what is "morally wrong", why this group diserves to die/burn in hell, etc., they always use quotes from the Old Testament, and ignore some of Jesus' fundamental teachings? I've always found that strange. Can any of the said "Christians" enlighten me? Why do use the Old Testament to justify your bigotism, but ignore Jesus' teachings condemning such actions (i.e. the bigotism)?

How can you be a liberal and a Catholic? Liberalism promotes sodomy, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, atheism, and pronography, which all go against our Holy Mother Church.
exactly: nobody who follows the tenets of the Catholic faith can actually support any of those freedoms. many people like to call themselves "Catholic" even though they are simply picking and choosing the bits of Catholicism that they like...i have even less respect for that sort of person than i do for the people who subscribe to Catholicism in its entirety.

Commando2, you're right. Cafeteria "Catholics" aren't Catholics at all - but we should approach them with kindness and constantly pray for their (as well as any non-Catholic) conversion.

Some freedom is perversion, bottle. Do you support perverse freedoms? (Do I even have to ask? The Church doesn't exist to tell people what they do is 'alright' - the Church exists for the salvation of souls)

Takuma, don't be such a cynic and delude yourself into believing Christ thought homosexuality, pornography, or birth control is "ok." Fashioning doctrine at pleasure is no more 'logical' (as so many atheists want to be considered 'logical') than indulging in delusions of grandeur. Christ taught us to love our neighbor, but not to tolerate evil.

Did not Jesus promote tolerance?

Yes, he did. His followers, however, mostly do not. Even his first Pope, Peter, advocated women as cattle and the slaughter of homosexuals.

How can you be a liberal and a Catholic? Liberalism promotes sodomy, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, atheism, and pronography, which all go against our Holy Mother Church.
Liberalism promotes individual freedom.

If individual freedom is not part of catholicism, then to hell with it. You can have your oppressive religion and I'll go have premarital sex.

Some freedom is perversion, bottle. Do you support perverse freedoms?

i support the concept of "your freedom to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose." i don't believe freedom is ever a perversion, though free people may sometimes choose to do perverse things.

Takuma, don't be such a cynic and delude yourself into believing Christ thought homosexuality, pornography, or birth control is "ok." Fashioning doctrine at pleasure is no more 'logical' (as so many atheists want to be considered 'logical') than indulging in delusions of grandeur.

No, but he did teach "love your neighbour as yourself" and "turn the other cheek", meaning no matter what your neighbour does, love him, don't persecute him: which is what thoes who wish to ban these things in the name of Christian Morality are doing.

Christ taught us to love our neighbor, but not to tolerate evil.
This is a contradictory phrase, but also the second part is naive. What is "evil"? If Jesus thought these were evil, he would have specifically said "Homosexuality is evil. I do not condone it" or "Erotica is evil. Kill thoes who make it" somewhere in the New Testament. But he didn't, he was too busy promoting love and peace of all. As I said, why do you use the Old Testament to justify your hatred instead of listening to Jesus' teachings on loving everyone. That's what he was saying: love everyone. Period.

You guys are hypocrites. Here you are saying that Christians are bad and yelling at everyone, because they arent Christian, when here you guys are yelling at Christians. Maybe you should actually understand what you are talking about, when you try to criticize a group of people.

I don't care what any church has to say, in my opinion the biggest sin of all is heartless intolerance.
I try not to hate the Christians... hate is too much like them for me... but I will settle for "strong dislike" for those who go about rattling on about the moral faults of everyone not part of their religion.
To use the trite but pointed cliché: Can't we all just get along?
Please?

This is a contradictory phrase, but also the second part is naive. What is "evil"? If Jesus thought these were evil, he would have specifically said "Homosexuality is evil. I do not condone it" or "Erotica is evil. Kill thoes who make it" somewhere in the New Testament. But he didn't, he was too busy promoting love and peace of all. As I said, why do you use the Old Testament to justify your hatred instead of listening to Jesus' teachings on loving everyone. That's what he was saying: love everyone. Period.
you can love somebody and still killl them: just ask any abusive boyfriend. the Christian God loves humanity so very much, but sends most of them to burn in Hell for eternity...that's the kind of love His son was probably talking about, since God and His son are supposedly just fascets of the same being. the love of Jesus and the Christian God is not in any way incompatible with inflicting pain and suffering. just read the Bible.

i support the concept of "your freedom to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose." i don't believe freedom is ever a perversion, though free people may sometimes choose to do perverse things.

A friend came up with the phrase "Ethical Hedonism" to describe this sort of philosophy. You can do whatever you like as long as it doesn't affect someone who does not want to be affected by your actions. If you break that rule, the other party gets some rights to retaliate.

Obviously, we give up some of those blanket freedoms to government in terms of security, but I still like the idea.

Commando2, you're right. Cafeteria "Catholics" aren't Catholics at all - but we should approach them with kindness and constantly pray for their (as well as any non-Catholic) conversion.

Some freedom is perversion, bottle. Do you support perverse freedoms? (Do I even have to ask? The Church doesn't exist to tell people what they do is 'alright' - the Church exists for the salvation of souls)

Takuma, don't be such a cynic and delude yourself into believing Christ thought homosexuality, pornography, or birth control is "ok." Fashioning doctrine at pleasure is no more 'logical' (as so many atheists want to be considered 'logical') than indulging in delusions of grandeur. Christ taught us to love our neighbor, but not to tolerate evil.

I agree pretty much. However I think that these Cafeteria Catholics are still Catholics, just Catholics who unkowingly hold heretical beliefs and need to be enlightened. We must be kind to them and assure them that they are still with us, but need to be the best they can be and throw their heresies aside. However, any Catholic politician who supports abortion/other heresies is no Catholic as he is using his position of power to promote anti-Catholic laws and decieve other Catholics.

And you are completely right about Christ promoting tolerance but not evil.

How can you be a liberal and a Catholic? Liberalism promotes sodomy, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, atheism, and pronography, which all go against our Holy Mother Church.

Don't forget, liberalism also promotes dangerous religions like Islam, Hinduism, and all the various forms of Paganism--religions I've been told were started by demons and satan...im going to go burn myself at the stake now... /sarcasm

Specificly the intolerant asses on this board who spawn biggotry and hate in the name of the Lord. I myself am a fairly liberal Catholic, and it appals me when people use the name of Christ to support their irrational hatred of gays, jews and the like. These people claim to be Christian, but they are not. What ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did not Jesus promote tolerance? Religion-based biggotry is the greatest hypocracy there is.

"You can't be both Catholic and Pro-Abortion"

anyhow...lol

The term "Christian" is so widespread anymore that you can't possibly say that you hate Christians. The only think you need to be a Christian is a belief that Jesus is the son of God. The differences between one group of Christians and another can be so outlandish that there is almost no resemblence other than the one main fact.

You say that "Religion-based bigotry is the greatest hypocracy there is" in a thread titled "I hate Christians." Not only that, but you are a Christian yourself, being Catholic. Finally, the second part of your title "well some of them" negates the first part. The fact that anyone has taken you serious is beyond me.

No, but he did teach "love your neighbour as yourself" and "turn the other cheek", meaning no matter what your neighbour does, love him, don't persecute him:

God also gave the ten commandments and sent his son to teach humanity the right way to live, if you believe in that sort of thing. "Love your neighbor" is not the most important thing in Christianity. Christianity is a way of live, defined by rules, created to make humanity moral in the ways desired by god, not man themselves. (once again...if you believe in that sort of thing)

you can love somebody and still killl them: just ask any abusive boyfriend. the Christian God loves humanity so very much, but sends most of them to burn in Hell for eternity...that's the kind of love His son was probably talking about, since God and His son are supposedly just fascets of the same being. the love of Jesus and the Christian God is not in any way incompatible with inflicting pain and suffering. just read the Bible.

Ah yes, I see your point. Christian "love for all" is no more than loving only thoes they aprove of. I guess Jesus' phrase "unconditional love" is only for the initiated, and is quite conditional to anyone who isn't close-minded.

I myself am called a Christian, now wether I practice completely as a Christian is another thing. Personally, I am getting more and more turned against my church every passing day. I hate Christian hypocrites, and the people who try to force a belief on you, yet can't be an example of following it. Their standards are so high that they can't even live up to them, but they will go and tell you that since you aren't living up to them, that you will "die/burn in hell". I have chosen to believe that there is a God, and that Jesus did come to Earth and do wonderful things and die for our sins. Other than that, I don't really know what to believe, all religious groups are in it for the wrong purposes.

Don't forget, liberalism also promotes dangerous religions like Islam, Hinduism, and all the various forms of Paganism--religions I've been told were started by demons and satan...im going to go burn myself at the stake now... /sarcasm

In fact, a true christian believes that his or her religion is correct. There cannot be multiple religions to a true christian. There is but one right.

God also gave the ten commandments and sent his son to teach humanity the right way to live, if you believe in that sort of thing. "Love your neighbor" is not the most important thing in Christianity. Christianity is a way of live, defined by rules, created to make humanity moral in the ways desired by god, not man themselves. (once again...if you believe in that sort of thing)

I once again site my questoin: Prove Jesus' hatred for these people using the New Testament. Stop using the ancient, archaic Jewish texts as your crutch for intollerance.

P.S. Didn't Jesus reject most of the Old Testament anyways? (Honest question here: I havn't touched a bible in years.)

Ah yes, I see your point. Christian "love for all" is no more than loving only thoes they aprove of. I guess Jesus' phrase "unconditional love" is only for the initiated, and is quite conditional to anyone who isn't close-minded.
no, you miss the point: they use the word "love" to refer to everybody, including the people they want to oppress and/or murder. that's what their God does, so that's what His followers do. He "loves" all humanity, including the people He tortures for eternity, including the people He slaughters with natural disasters, and including the innocents He sends to Hell for not having kissed His ass enough during their short human lives.

no, you miss the point: they use the word "love" to refer to everybody, including the people they want to oppress and/or murder. that's what their God does, so that's what His followers do. He "loves" all humanity, including the people He tortures for eternity, including the people He slaughters with natural disasters, and including the innocents He sends to Hell for not having kissed His ass enough during their short human lives.

Ok, so love is simply an illusion designed to make Christians more confortable with what their god is doing? I see.

In fact, a true christian believes that his or her religion is correct. There cannot be multiple religions to a true christian. There is but one right.

(Bergist): My complaint was not so much the slam on Christianity...it was that liberalism does not necessarily promote atheism...it promotes allowing all to follow any religion they choose.

I once again site my questoin: Prove Jesus' hatred for these people using the New Testament. Stop using the ancient, archaic Jewish texts as your crutch for intollerance.

P.S. Didn't Jesus reject most of the Old Testament anyways? (Honest question here: I havn't touched a bible in years.)

If Jesus rejected the Old Testament, why would it still be included in Christian Bibles?

I'm not going to answer your "challenge" because I'm not about to interpret scriptures, bastardising them to prove my own point. There are a lot of things, unimagined by the people of the time, that are considered "evils" today yet are not included specifically in the bible. Mathew, Mark, Luke, and Paul could not have predicted life as it is today, just as you or I could not predict life two thousand more years from now.

Besides, saying that the New Testament is better than the Old Testament is rather foolish. They're both essential parts of christianity. One cannot be more important than the other.

How can you be a liberal and a Catholic? Liberalism promotes sodomy, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, atheism, and pr0nography, which all go against our Holy Mother Church.
True as this may (very roughly) be, it is probably preferable if you are American. Why? Because the alternative is big war, greed taken to the extreme, intolerance, corporatism, authoritarianism, etc.

Ok, so love is simply an illusion designed to make Christians more confortable with what their god is doing? I see.

Ever hear of harsh love? Like why a parent must punish their child when the child does wrong, even though the child screams and cries about the punishment. It is to teach them right from wrong.

The whole god and man thing is no different.

exactly: nobody who follows the tenets of the Catholic faith can actually support any of those freedoms. many people like to call themselves "Catholic" even though they are simply picking and choosing the bits of Catholicism that they like...i have even less respect for that sort of person than i do for the people who subscribe to Catholicism in its entirety.
But remember that the intolerant Catholics are also picking and choosing what they like - they ignore most of Jesus' message, fixating on the old testament.

(Bergist): My complaint was not so much the slam on Christianity...it was that liberalism does not necessarily promote atheism...it promotes allowing all to follow any religion they choose.

Too many people in this thread have confused religious liberalism, as you just defined above, with political liberal stances on issues such as abortion and homosexuality.

If Jesus rejected the Old Testament, why would it still be included in Christian Bibles?

I'm not going to answer your "challenge" because I'm not about to interpret scriptures, bastardising them to prove my own point. There are a lot of things, unimagined by the people of the time, that are considered "evils" today yet are not included specifically in the bible. Mathew, Mark, Luke, and Paul could not have predicted life as it is today, just as you or I could not predict life two thousand more years from now.

Besides, saying that the New Testament is better than the Old Testament is rather foolish. They're both essential parts of christianity. One cannot be more important than the other.

I see your point, and even now thinking about it my challenge is quite stupid. I understand the use of the 10 commandments, but my main concernt is with the use of Leviticus et al.

Doesn't it say in there many things that Christians do today are immoral? However, these verses are thrown away to get at the juicy ones about stoning homosexuals. That is really the point of my challenge: Why rely on picking and choosing from a book used to govern a people 3000-4000 years ago to justify stuff today, when the messiah for your religion taught contrary to it?

I hope that wording makes more sense.

But remember that the intolerant Catholics are also picking and choosing what they like - they ignore most of Jesus' message, fixating on the old testament.

Exactly what I'm saying!

But remember that the intolerant Catholics are also picking and choosing what they like - they ignore most of Jesus' message, fixating on the old testament.

....and I'm sure the pope really gives a shit about your opinion on the Catholic religion. Catholics ignoring Jesus's message and fixating on the old testament is stupid, but it's nothing more than an opinion of an uninformed internet browser. You're as much of a bigot and guilty of intolerance as those Catholics who you accuse.

Ever hear of harsh love? Like why a parent must punish their child when the child does wrong, even though the child screams and cries about the punishment. It is to teach them right from wrong.

The whole god and man thing is no different.
of course, parents generally actually talk to their children, and take an active role in teaching them right from wrong. parents don't simply leave their kids alone in the house with other children and expect that the kids will manage to figure out which of the many books in the house contains the correct moral rules for them to follow. a parent who did that, and then returned home and burned the children alive for failing to obey the correct book, would be a good parallel to the Christian God...yet for some reason i haven't heard anybody championing that sort of "teaching" method.

I consider myself a non-denominational Christian (all though i have Baptist and Lutheran backgrounds). My biggest thing is thing, there was only one perfect man that ever walked upon this Earth, Jesus Christ. And he will be the only one until he comes again. We as Christians are not expected to be perfect, (or at least in my belief we aren't) because it is simply impossible to do. What some people need to realize is that humans are sinners by nature. Evil came into play the minute we had choice, the minute we were given free will. We can CHOOSE to do right or wrong. Now due to the fact that we are sinners by nature you may say, "What's the point then?" Well, the point is that God sent Jesus to this Earth to save us from our sins. The one perfect man in this world died for us, the sinners of the world. So being that we can't be perfect our only hope is to accept Jesus. Through his death, his attonement, we can be let into heaven. (And when I say we, I mean anyone can go to heaven (in my opinion) if you accept Jesus.) Now don't think that I'm saying, go do whatever the heck you want and it doesn't matter in the end cause you repent and believe in Jesus. One of the biggest parts of being a Christian is living the Christian way of life as described in the Ten Commandments.

....and I'm sure the pope really gives a shit about your opinion on the Catholic religion. Catholics ignoring Jesus's message and fixating on the old testament is stupid, but it's nothing more than an opinion of an uninformed internet browser. You're as much of a bigot and guilty of intolerance as those Catholics who you accuse.
Wow, you are really worked up. How am I intolerant? I didn't say I hated Catholics, despite the fact that they spent 70 years choking my country with theocracy.

I see your point, and even now thinking about it my challenge is quite stupid. I understand the use of the 10 commandments, but my main concernt is with the use of Leviticus et al.

Doesn't it say in there many things that Christians do today are immoral? However, these verses are thrown away to get at the juicy ones about stoning homosexuals. That is really the point of my challenge: Why rely on picking and choosing from a book used to govern a people 3000-4000 years ago to justify stuff today, when the messiah for your religion taught contrary to it?

I hope that wording makes more sense.

Just to make myself clear, I'm agnostic right now. I was brought up Roman Catholic in a fairly strong environment. I left the church because of problems with priests and how the church itself is set up, not because of problems with "god" himself. I just don't know what to believe anymore, and frankly it does me no good wasting time thinking about it. Still, I know a lot about religion from my childhood.

To try and answer your question, I think it's because while certain things change, some things cannot. Murder, for instance, is still illegal and still immoral. It is a sin, just like homosexuality is. I too agree that other things Christians do are "immoral" as well, but the answer isn't "well they do this so why can't they do this other thing as well?" It should be "well they don't do this so they shouldn't do this other thing either."

Wow, you are really worked up. How am I intolerant? I didn't say I hated Catholics, despite the fact that they spent 70 years choking my country with theocracy.

More than 70, I think!

Please correct me if I'm wrong

of course, parents generally actually talk to their children, and take an active role in teaching them right from wrong. parents don't simply leave their kids alone in the house with other children and expect that the kids will manage to figure out which of the many books in the house contains the correct moral rules for them to follow. a parent who did that, and then returned home and burned the children alive for failing to obey the correct book, would be a good parallel to the Christian God...yet for some reason i haven't heard anybody championing that sort of "teaching" method.

Heh. I couldn't agree with you more buddy.

I'm not trying to defend the man-god relationship, I'm merely explaining it. Read one of my posts. I have a good number of problems with the man-god relationship, specifically the priests and church that come between the two "sides."

Just to make myself clear, I'm agnostic right now. I was brought up Roman Catholic in a fairly strong environment. I left the church because of problems with priests and how the church itself is set up, not because of problems with "god" himself. I just don't know what to believe anymore, and frankly it does me no good wasting time thinking about it. Still, I know a lot about religion from my childhood.

To try and answer your question, I think it's because while certain things change, some things cannot. Murder, for instance, is still illegal and still immoral. It is a sin, just like homosexuality is. I too agree that other things Christians do are "immoral" as well, but the answer isn't "well they do this so why can't they do this other thing as well?" It should be "well they don't do this so they shouldn't do this other thing either."

But then, that begs the question: Who said thoes other things became morally OK, and then why can't the others be seen in the same light? The Greeks didn't think homosexuality was immoral, they embraced it. Maybe that line in the bible is out-dated as well?

Why I personally prefer Catholics over Christians... By the way this is from the dictionary on the web... but it's much much older.

---------------------------------
cath·o·lic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kth-lk, kthlk)

adj.

Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: “The 100-odd pages of formulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found” (Scientific American).

Including or concerning all humankind; universal: “what was of catholic rather than national interest” (J.A. Froude).

Catholic
Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.

-------------------------------------

On another note liberal catholics would seem to be trying to follow ancient catholic law to the best of their abilities whilst still exploring the correct path and truth in liberal freedoms. I'm one and though I must stray to find truth I personaly find catholic teachings a beacon in the dark :)

Just to make it clear Steel Butterfly, this is not a personal attack, I'm just interested in debating this issue. No hard feelings.

Specificly the intolerant asses on this board who spawn biggotry and hate in the name of the Lord. I myself am a fairly liberal Catholic, and it appals me when people use the name of Christ to support their irrational hatred of gays, jews and the like. These people claim to be Christian, but they are not. What ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did not Jesus promote tolerance? Religion-based biggotry is the greatest hypocracy there is.

Are you my long lost brother?

Wow, you are really worked up. How am I intolerant? I didn't say I hated Catholics, despite the fact that they spent 70 years choking my country with theocracy.

First of all, reading your posts you're obviously biased.

Second, by calling all Catholics intolerant, you're intolerant as well to Catholics.

Third, I'm hardly worked up. I don't need to be jumping up and down pulling my hair out to use strong words. You act like what you say is law, and your opinions are fact. I'll say it again. Saying that catholics are ignoring Jesus's message and fixating on the old testament is stupid, but it's nothing more than an opinion of an uninformed internet browser. For saying this, you're as much of a bigot and guilty of intolerance as those Catholics who you accuse.

It [murder] is a sin, just like homosexuality is.

Let me get this straight. Some people are born heterosexual, and some are born homosexual. The ones that were born homosexual are automatically sinners just because they were born that way? Seems rather unfair to me.

How can you be a liberal and a Catholic? Liberalism promotes sodomy, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, atheism, and pronography, which all go against our Holy Mother Church.

Commando, is that you :sniper: ? I'm Dante181/CrOxx at GameFAQs, one of the many evil heathens.

Anyway, I've met some nice liberal Christiasn before. Don't hate all Christians, just the intolerant fundies (like Commando).

Second, by calling all Catholics intolerant, you're intolerant as well to Catholics.

just to be clear on terminology, it is NOT necessarily intolerant to label something else as intolerant. i would not be intolerant if i said that racists are intolerant, because that is simply an accurate statement; they ARE intolerant. i, on the other hand, am quite tolerant of people who hold racist beliefs, just as i am of anybody who simply holds a certain set of personal beliefs. i might not LIKE those beliefs, and i certainly may object if they attempt to force their beliefs on other people, but i am not intolerant of them. Catholics are intolerant; it is a part of their credo to be intolerant toward an assortment of groups...calling Catholics intolerant is simply a statement of fact that is grounded in the tenets of that faith, and stating that fact does not make one intolerant.

But then, that begs the question: Who said thoes other things became morally OK, and then why can't the others be seen in the same light? The Greeks didn't think homosexuality was immoral, they embraced it. Maybe that line in the bible is out-dated as well?

Perhaps, but who are you and I, in the eye of the Catholic church or any other relgion, to determine what is and what isn't outdated? The Church isn't very interested in change, if anyone hadn't noticed.

Also, for the Greek thing, Catholics would blame it on the fact that they were polytheistic or something.

Just to make it clear Steel Butterfly, this is not a personal attack, I'm just interested in debating this issue. No hard feelings.

Oh I know...lol...no hard feelings.

Alright, folks. Listen up.
I am Christian, and not that I want to sound full of myself or anything, but I believe that I am about to make possibly the most rational point in this thread.

God is a loving, caring God, and Jesus is God's word in human form. God loves and cares for you, and it's common courtesy to give thanks and praise Him for his creation of life. If you defile his creation, He will still forgive you, but you must seek forgiveness. Do not assume that the Lord automatically forgives you.

"The Lord is close to all who call on Him, yes, to all who call on Him sincerely."
--Psalm 145:18

You are right when you say that God wishes for you to love your neighbor, and when he tells us not to tolerate evil, he does not mean "Don't forgive people who commit acts of evil." What he means by "Do not tolerate evil" is that he wants you to realize that acts of evil defile his creation, so you do not commit acts of evil.

Now please, stop pointing fingers and listen to what your God is really telling you.

Specificly the intolerant asses on this board who spawn biggotry and hate in the name of the Lord. I myself am a fairly liberal Catholic, and it appals me when people use the name of Christ to support their irrational hatred of gays, jews and the like. These people claim to be Christian, but they are not. What ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did not Jesus promote tolerance? Religion-based biggotry is the greatest hypocracy there is.


i also hate christians who say that they are being persecuted and then shove their religion down your throat.

edit; that goes for every religion too, not just christianity.

just to be clear on terminology, it is NOT necessarily intolerant to label something else as intolerant. i would not be intolerant if i said that racists are intolerant, because that is simply an accurate statement; they ARE intolerant. i, on the other hand, am quite tolerant of people who hold racist beliefs, just as i am of anybody who simply holds a certain set of personal beliefs. i might not LIKE those beliefs, and i certainly may object if they attempt to force their beliefs on other people, but i am not intolerant of them. Catholics are intolerant; it is a part of their credo to be intolerant toward an assortment of groups...calling Catholics intolerant is simply a statement of fact that is grounded in the tenets of that faith, and stating that fact does not make one intolerant.

Racists are racists because they are intolerant. Catholics are not catholic because of their supposed intolerance. That's an opinion, and an intolerant one at that. I'm sure I could find many Catholics, myself included being that I'm a former Catholic, who are not intolerant to other religions.

i also hate christians who say that they are being persecuted and then shove their religion down your throat.

Outside of the whole "well we can say happy kwanza and show the star of david but we can't say merry christmas or show a cross" thing that actually exists, I don't know too many Christians who claim that they're being persecuted.

Perhaps, but who are you and I, in the eye of the Catholic church or any other relgion, to determine what is and what isn't outdated? The Church isn't very interested in change, if anyone hadn't noticed.

Also, for the Greek thing, Catholics would blame it on the fact that they were polytheistic or something.



Oh I know...lol...no hard feelings.

Yea, it is up to them, but still, they should really look at it objectively with logic. It is quite easy to pick the whole "this is outdated, this isn't, etc." thing apart.

For the Greeks, yea they were polythiestic, but it's still a valid point: that different cultures have different views on the subject, and therefore it is impossible to arbitrarially declair "this is outdated, this isn't, etc.".

hehe sorry looking back catholosismn is kind of like liberalismn except it's based on a vast history of ppl f*%king up their lives and learning moral conduct or ethics if you will from it.

*does the funky catholic dance and skips outta the way of the man with the minigun*

and on a personal note, the bible is chock full of war, paranoia and generally people having to deal with a hellish reality of pre-industrial poverty :D The only thing to really consider is what they learnt from that... remember WE ARE SLIGHTLY LUCKIER THEN THEM

Let me get this straight. Some people are born heterosexual, and some are born homosexual. The ones that were born homosexual are automatically sinners just because they were born that way? Seems rather unfair to me.

Blah...way too many people to respond to...

Anyhow...I'll take this in two different directions, just for fun.

First of all, it is opinion that people are born gay. There is just as much proof proving it than there is disproving it. Therefore, it's not a fact. Personally, I think it's a choice, as I could choose to be gay right now if I wanted, but it really doesn't matter what either of us think in the world of fact. Once again, it's not a fact.

Second, if it is indeed a fact, then you should also consider some other "evidence" that's highly disputed. There are many studies out there that show that certain people are more inclinded to violence leading to rape and murder due to certain chemicals in their brain and certain genes throughout their body. If proven, would this make their crimes acceptable?

I don't know too many Christians who claim that they're being persecuted.

Basically, the people in the U.S. who constantly complain that the seperation of Church and State is infringing on their rights, yada yada yada, because it's promoting children learning about things they deem "immoral".

For example, http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/wright.htm People like that guy.

Yea, it is up to them, but still, they should really look at it objectively with logic.

There is no logic in Religion. Faith is the belief in something without logic or reason or proof.

Basically, the people in the U.S. who constantly complain that the seperation of Church and State is infringing on their rights, yada yada yada, because it's promoting children learning about things they deem "immoral".

For example, http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/wright.htm People like that guy.

All religions, or groups for that matter, have extremists (spl?)

The fact that christian extremists are more civilized than say muslim extremeists (court case vs. terrorist attack) doesn't matter. They're still extremists, and represent a small percentage of the religion itself.

Just like how Michael "Fat White Trash" Moore doesn't represent all liberals and Rush Limbaugh doesn't represent all conservatives in American politics.

god didnt want guys sucking dick and ladies lickin clits, even tho hot chickes together can be great fun with a guy involved

god didn't want you to post that...he told me so.

god didnt want guys sucking dick and ladies lickin clits, even tho hot chickes together can be great fun with a guy involved

what an amazing first post...

actually, god didn't want anything other than one main position involved in sex. kinda boring eh?

Ah, to those who say "A Christian is hypocritical to preach that homosexuality, et al is a sin and then say love thy neighbour" -- simple question.

Jesus said to "Love the person, but hate the sin." See? That should clear it up for you. While I'm against homosexuality, I'm not for burning them all at the stake.


Also, please stop using the words Catholic and Christian interchangibly. I'm a fundemental Protestant, who knowingly defies the Catholic Church, and I believe the office of the papacy is the antichrist. So please stop.

But that's for another story, eh?

god didn't want you to post that...he told me so.

lol...yeah...he probably didn't...

I agree with what you say. Christians take reforming the rest of the world way to seriously. However, most of these radicals were in fact christians. The burning of Joan of Arc was by the Catholic Church. The Inquistion was also headed by the Catholic Church. Though I think that The Salem Witch Trials were headed by Protestant elders.

Commando, is that you :sniper: ? I'm Dante181/CrOxx at GameFAQs, one of the many evil heathens.

Anyway, I've met some nice liberal Christiasn before. Don't hate all Christians, just the intolerant fundies (like Commando).

Is gamefaqs not working for you as well?

I agree with what you say. Christians take reforming the rest of the world way to seriously. However, most of these radicals were in fact christians. The burning of Joan of Arc was by the Catholic Church. The Inquistion was also headed by the Catholic Church. Though I think that The Salem Witch Trials were headed by Protestant elders.

Joan of Arc is a St. in the Catholic Church.

Also, please stop using the words Catholic and Christian interchangibly. I'm a fundemental Protestant, who knowingly defies the Catholic Church, and I believe the office of the papacy is the antichrist. So please stop.

But that's for another story, eh?

Are you in the KKK? Because they are all heretics like you who attack the TRUE church. And guess what? The papacy is not the antichrist this man works for the antichrist-

www.chick.com

Are you Jack Chick? Spreading lies about the Church sounds like your thing. Catholics are Christians, and Protestantism is heresy that is largely flawed.

First of all, reading your posts you're obviously biased.

Second, by calling all Catholics intolerant, you're intolerant as well to Catholics.
Are you sure you are not reading someone else's posts and thinking they are mine?

You are accusing me of things that I never said. I am not biased against Catholics and I never said that all Catholics were intolerant. Some of m best friend are liberal Catholics!

Are you Jack Chick? Spreading lies about the Church sounds like your thing. Catholics are Christians, and Protestantism is heresy that is largely flawed.

*claps*oh oh oh! Tell them what paganism is!!

edit: Just for the record, Jack Chick is, in fact, a complete wingnut...

Are you in the KKK? Because they are all heretics like you who attack the TRUE church. And guess what? The papacy is not the antichrist this man works for the antichrist-

www.chick.com

Are you Jack Chick? Spreading lies about the Church sounds like your thing. Catholics are Christians, and Protestantism is heresy that is largely flawed.

No, I'm not Jack Chick, nor am I KKK. I am Free Presbyterian by doctrine, and a strong supporter of Doctor Paisely.

Catholicism is flawed, my friend, but I'll never convince you of that, and you will never convince me that Protestantism is flawed.

Also, please stop using the words Catholic and Christian interchangibly. I'm a fundemental Protestant, who knowingly defies the Catholic Church, and I believe the office of the papacy is the antichrist. So please stop.
Are you in the KKK? Because they are all heretics like you who attack the TRUE church. And guess what? The papacy is not the antichrist this man works for the antichrist-

www.chick.com
You guys are hilarious.

No, I'm not Jack Chick, nor am I KKK. I am Free Presbyterian by doctrine, and a strong supporter of Doctor Paisely.

Catholicism is flawed, my friend, but I'll never convince you of that, and you will never convince me that Protestantism is flawed.

Presbyterian? That was Oliver Cromwell, the Catholic killer. And Presbyterian is the Church that endorses abortion(evil).

Prove to me Catholicism is flawed and I'll never post here again.

No, I'm not Jack Chick, nor am I KKK. I am Free Presbyterian by doctrine, and a strong supporter of Doctor Paisely.

That is disgusting. Do you know that "Doctor" Paisley bought his theological degrees? Do you know that he is a hateful xenophobe who has done his best to prevent peace in Ireland over the past 40 years? Shame on you.

Presbyterian? That was Oliver Cromwell, the Catholic killer. And Presbyterian is the Church that endorses abortion(evil).
I don't think they endorse abortion, but yes Cromwell was one of them and he is one of British/Irish history's worst genocidal scumbags.

Joan of Arc is a St. in the Catholic Church.

Ah yes. They only made her a saint after they realized their mistake.

Racists are racists because they are intolerant.
Catholics are not catholic because of their supposed intolerance. That's an opinion, and an intolerant one at that.

how can you possibly support that generalization? why is it intolerant to say that Catholics are intolerant, but it is not intolerant to say the same about racists? why should your beliefs be more respected than a racist's? both racists and Catholics believe they have the RIGHT morality, both believe that those who disagree are wicked and wrong, both believe they are better or "chosen" compared to other people. racists discriminate on skin color, Catholics on God-belief. the tenets of the Catholic faith are inherently intolerant of a variety of beliefs, belief systems, values, and cultures; racists are much the same. Catholicism clearly discriminates against a variety of creeds and beliefs, just as racism does. i see no reason why i should be allowed to call racists intolerant or discriminatory, but not Catholics.

you basically seem to be expecting people to show more respect for your beliefs simply because they are your beliefs.

and, again, you make the mistake of assuming that refering to something as "intolerant" means that i am intolerant of that thing. i am exceptionally tolerant of Catholics, and have openly defended their rights in public, much as i have also done for racists. Catholics are intolerant, as are racists; that doesn't meant they don't deserve rights and freedoms just like the rest of us, and my pointing out their intolerance doesn't mean that i am intolerant of them in turn.

I'm sure I could find many Catholics, myself included being that I'm a former Catholic, who are not intolerant to other religions.
if you are not intolerant of other religions then you are not following the tenets of the Catholic faith. the Catholic faith teaches that it is the One True Faith, and worships the One True God. the Bible teaches that nobody gets into Heaven unless they follow the Christian faith, and therefore excludes and blatantly discriminates against other creeds, philosophies, and religious beliefs. the Catholic God is intolerant of a variety of activities, beliefs, and cultures, so if you worship that God then you would naturally be intolerant as well. if you are not intolerant of the things your God is intolerant of, then you either are intentionally getting yourself sent to Hell or you simply are not a Catholic; you may be one of the many people who call themselves "Catholic" while picking which parts of Catholicism you feel like following, but that would mean that you aren't actually a Catholic.

Ah yes. They only made her a saint after they realized their mistake.
Like many people at the time, Joan was executed in 1431 for political reasons. The British just pretended that she was a religious heretic/witch.

if you are not intolerant of other religions then you are not following the tenets of the Catholic faith. the Catholic faith teaches that it is the One True Faith, and worships the One True God. the Bible teaches that nobody gets into Heaven unless they follow the Christian faith, and therefore excludes and blatantly discriminates against other creeds, philosophies, and religious beliefs. the Catholic God is intolerant of a variety of activities, beliefs, and cultures, so if you worship that God then you would naturally be intolerant as well. if you are not intolerant of the things your God is intolerant of, then you either are intentionally getting yourself sent to Hell or you simply are not a Catholic; you may be one of the many people who call themselves "Catholic" while picking which parts of Catholicism you feel like following, but that would mean that you aren't actually a Catholic.

Yeah...well...where did I call myself a Catholic? I'm pretty sure that I've said multiple times that I'm no longer Catholic. I'm neither a "hardcore" catholic or someone who simply calls myself catholic. I'm not a catholic.

Like many people at the time, Joan was executed in 1431 for political reasons. The British just pretended that she was a religious heretic/witch.
That's because she was A Threat to Britain.

How can you be a liberal and a Catholic? Liberalism promotes sodomy, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, atheism, and pronography, which all go against our Holy Mother Church.

That isn't true. That's a certain kind of liberalism. Besides, most right wingers support birth control also. And as a Catholic, you shouldn't support the death penalty either, yet many Catholics, and definitely the right, support that.

exactly: nobody who follows the tenets of the Catholic faith can actually support any of those freedoms. many people like to call themselves "Catholic" even though they are simply picking and choosing the bits of Catholicism that they like...i have even less respect for that sort of person than i do for the people who subscribe to Catholicism in its entirety.

"I tell you that tax collectors and prostitues will go into the Kingdom of G-d before you."

"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me. Their worship of me is useless, because they teach man-made rules as if they were doctrines."

How can you be a liberal and a Catholic? Liberalism promotes sodomy, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, atheism, and pronography, which all go against our Holy Mother Church.
Thats not all there is to the left. The left also offers aid to the poor, sick and elderly.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060558288/qid=1108349233/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-7878927-0110263?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

As a radical Christian, i agree when you call most Christians unChristian. But those of us true to the faith are tired of the bad publicity they give us. I technically am Protestant, but that is because i chose to worship God free from the traditions and restrictions Catholicism has added to Bibilical teachings. But my point is that Christianity is under attack right now, and there are few left to fight for the Glory of God. Half-hearted, half-informed buffons are waging "holy wars" on social issues instead of attacking the heart of the problem. Our true enemy is Satan and his minions. Always has always will be. Get on your knees, bow your head, fight in the Name of the Lord.

Outside of the whole "well we can say happy kwanza and show the star of david but we can't say merry christmas or show a cross" thing that actually exists, I don't know too many Christians who claim that they're being persecuted.

i know a ton, even some that say that they are being persecuted because we dont teach christianity in science classrooms. go figure.

ever heard of "The Voice of the Martyrs" (Persecution.com) its an organization devoted to revealing the persecution of Christianity. i have tons of information about people who are in prision for preaching. in fact, this october, Christians were arrested for preaching where? in Philledelphia. yes, the "city of brotherly love" is calling Christian terachings and the Bible "Hate speech"

ever heard of "The Voice of the Martyrs" (Persecution.com) its an organization devoted to revealing the persecution of Christianity. i have tons of information about people who are in prision for preaching. in fact, this october, Christians were arrested for preaching where? in Philledelphia. yes, the "city of brotherly love" is calling Christian terachings and the Bible "Hate speech"

im a member of 'the voice of the martyrs', very informative.

I'd seriously question that, because America loves its hate speech.

True as this may (very roughly) be, it is probably preferable if you are American. Why? Because the alternative is big war, greed taken to the extreme, intolerance, corporatism, authoritarianism, etc.

You were kidding, right (no pun intended)? How can you say that being "the alternative," which I believe you are referring to the right, promotes authoritarianism? And just a note, adding etc. to the end of your response didn't help your cause. It just means that you know very little and think that people will just fill in the blanks that you don't know about.

You were kidding, right (no pun intended)? How can you say that being "the alternative," which I believe you are referring to the right, promotes authoritarianism?
Yes, I am referring to Republicans in America. I believe them to be authoritarian on social and political matters. They think that the government should legislate morality.

Prove to me Catholicism is flawed and I'll never post here again.
Damn, he's posting a reward!

There are two ways of thought. Live a good life the best you can, or live a perfect life. Unfortunately, it is near impossible to live a perfect one. Even from now on. In a perfect world, you would not generalize any time. Labels would only be useful if one thing was identical to another, because very few people believe the same thing. I would say less then .000000000000000000001% of catholics or any religion believe the exact same thing as someone else about that religion. There is so much, that to believe in everything the same, and not disagree once, that it would be near impossible without BLIND faith. And BLIND faith in my opinion is wrong. It is accepting from source A that source A is always right, and never looking back. This only works if source A never changes. Once they do/know something else, the reasons you agreed before have to be re-examined. A perfect world is near impossible. Well I am nearly done rambling, and I have many pages of thought on these facts, but this is all I will pester you for. So before you slam others here, know what they think and what they meant. All things are debatable. Like basic law of science, nothing can be proven only disproven.

Prove to me Catholicism is flawed and I'll never post here again.

what do you call people that tell what is in the bible? Teachers
what is a catholic priest called? Father
Who runs the church? The Leaders

Matthew 23:8-10
8 "But do not be called Teacher; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ."


thus a flaw in the use of titles in the Catholic church

catholics have seven sacrements right? only two are backed by scripture, the lords supper and baptism.

I don't need religion to justify my hate.

:)

I don't need religion to justify my hate.

:)


And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.
;)

;)

noticed that too ;)

No, there are seven Sacraments in Scripture.

It's not surprising Protestants only have 2, seeing as how they mutilated the Bible.

No, there are seven Sacraments in Scripture.

It's not surprising Protestants only have 2, seeing as how they mutilated the Bible.

every body has mutilated the bible.

hell, the old testament isn't even in the same order anymore, and someone translated lilit the night creature into an owl.....my goodness.

I think there are only two rules to start with, the two set by Christ. Love G-d with all heart and deed, and love others as yourself. Then the act of faith is to believe in him and be saved.

Catholics, and all the denominations are screwed up.

"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me. Their worship of me is useless, because they teach man-made rules as if they were doctrines."

all of them are filled with them

the Bible says "love thy neighbor" in one place. it has pages and pages of encouragement for war, murder, slavery, violence, rape, and genocide. a person who truly believes the Bible is the word of God would not be illogical for supposing that the few incidental luvy-duvy bits were editorializations or type-os, while the violence, cruelty, and righteous slaughter are the actual Will of God.

Uh, last time I checked, there isnt any place in the bible that says that. Not in my bible, anyway. Or ANY Christian bible, for that matter. I would LOVE for you to show me where the bible says that.

Uh, last time I checked, there isnt any place in the bible that says that. Not in my bible, anyway. Or ANY Christian bible, for that matter. I would LOVE for you to show me where the bible says that.


Yes, the bible mentions slavery, but you have to look at the time frame that this was written. The bible mentions nothing of condoning murder as a good thing. Get your facts right before you spew about how the bible is an evil tool, or whatever you happen to be doing.

every body has mutilated the bible.

hell, the old testament isn't even in the same order anymore, and someone translated lilit the night creature into an owl.....my goodness.

I think there are only two rules to start with, the two set by Christ. Love G-d with all heart and deed, and love others as yourself. Then the act of faith is to believe in him and be saved.

Catholics, and all the denominations are screwed up.

"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me. Their worship of me is useless, because they teach man-made rules as if they were doctrines."

all of them are filled with them
I know what you mean, Jesus throughout his time on earth spent most of it telling the sanhedrins and all that god doesn't care if your temple is made from gold or if you burn insense or have nice looking robes. He say it's your faith inside that matters, so why is it that so many christian denominations still build fancy churches and all this, in 2000 years they haven't learnt.

Yes, the bible mentions slavery, but you have to look at the time frame that this was written. The bible mentions nothing of condoning murder as a good thing. Get your facts right before you spew about how the bible is an evil tool, or whatever you happen to be doing.

The slavery mentioned in the bible is nothing like modern concepts of slavery. Slaves here made either by debt, war or choice. They were either captured after a war, owed money and were slaves until they worked it off, or took the option of being a slave for a reward from a master.

They were not treated like the slaves that we all think of in the modern area. They were respected and not to be ill treated. They were not allowed to own land, and they tended after their master's estate, much like servents.

No tool is evil, but in the wrong hands it can produce evil.

I know what you mean, Jesus throughout his time on earth spent most of it telling the sanhedrins and all that god doesn't care if your temple is made from gold or if you burn insense or have nice looking robes. He say it's your faith inside that matters, so why is it that so many christian denominations still build fancy churches and all this, in 2000 years they haven't learnt.

they are the hypocrit teachers that Jesus warns about becoming. I find myself worshiping in nature, much like Jesus did. He prayed on a mountain. I think we were meant to live with nature, I mean it all started with the Garden in the land of Eden.

Yes, the bible mentions slavery, but you have to look at the time frame that this was written. The bible mentions nothing of condoning murder as a good thing. Get your facts right before you spew about how the bible is an evil tool, or whatever you happen to be doing.
What about all the parts ending in "They shall be put to death" or "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Even if it really means poisoner.)

What about all the parts ending in "They shall be put to death" or "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Even if it really means poisoner.)

what about the parts about love your neighbors as being more important then the rest of the laws. When asked who your neighbor is, the whole world is the responce.....don't confuse ancient hebrew for christianity.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." is in exodus if I'm not mistaken.
And it would be nice if so many people didn't use the bible to justify their hatred.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." is in exodus if I'm not mistaken.
And it would be nice if so many people didn't use the bible to justify their hatred.


"you are not to permit a female sorcerer to live"
"you are not to abuse any widow or orphen"
"you are not to curse G-d, and you are not to curse a leader of your people"

some more from that section.

how many "christians" curse bush?
how often in history were the widows and orphens down trodden?

organized religion is a farse!

how many "christians" curse bush?
how often in history were the widows and orphens down trodden?

organized religion is a farse!

Don't confuse a "Christian" with a relationship with Christ. Don't confuse a church with a real group of Jesus Freaks. Don't confuse the prejudices of a few with what Christianity was meant to be.

Some people have made remarks that the members of the Continental Congress and the frames of the Constitution were hypocrites for talking about liberty while tolerating slavery. Frankly, they were. But does this mean that the dream of freedom that they had was all for nothing? I hope not. By the same token, there are many hypocrites who call themselves Christians. Please don't assume that all Christians are hypocrites, or that the message that we bring is pointless because of them.

Don't confuse a "Christian" with a relationship with Christ. Don't confuse a church with a real group of Jesus Freaks. Don't confuse the prejudices of a few with what Christianity was meant to be.

Some people have made remarks that the members of the Continental Congress and the frames of the Constitution were hypocrites for talking about liberty while tolerating slavery. Frankly, they were. But does this mean that the dream of freedom that they had was all for nothing? I hope not. By the same token, there are many hypocrites who call themselves Christians. Please don't assume that all Christians are hypocrites, or that the message that we bring is pointless because of them.


I do not call all christians hypocrites, for to do so would be to show my own ignorance. No, I call all organized churches hypocrits. They use the law of man, and force it upon others. Yet to live under the law is to live under a curse. Jesus taught not to teach man-made laws as holy doctrines, because it would make those that followed it meaningless to him. They would not be worshiping G-d or the Trinity, but instead they would worship that which man gave them. They would be praying to angels, saints and the virgin mary. All crimes to G-d.

The hebrews were not to take any graven images at all, because G-d didn't take form upon the mountains. He came as fire to them, so no image was to be made. Yet people pray to crosses, they pray to statues, and they pray to pictures. They pray to angels and to saints, and they pray to the Virgin Mary, whom even Jesus said was less important then a believer.

I do not call all christians hypocrites, for to do so would be to show my own ignorance. No, I call all organized churches hypocrits. They use the law of man, and force it upon others. Yet to live under the law is to live under a curse. Jesus taught not to teach man-made laws as holy doctrines, because it would make those that followed it meaningless to him. They would not be worshiping G-d or the Trinity, but instead they would worship that which man gave them. They would be praying to angels, saints and the virgin mary. All crimes to G-d.

The hebrews were not to take any graven images at all, because G-d didn't take form upon the mountains. He came as fire to them, so no image was to be made. Yet people pray to crosses, they pray to statues, and they pray to pictures. They pray to angels and to saints, and they pray to the Virgin Mary, whom even Jesus said was less important then a believer.

What do you count as "organized?" I go to a church, but it's not a member of any denomination. And you can't just say that we don't need church at all, as Paul wrote that we should not forsake the fellowship of the bretheren (and sisteren?).

in the interest of causing absolute anarchy I proclaim this thread is good...

for ME TO POOP ON!

thanks for reading.

Boy...lots of argument going on in this thread...lol

As a Roman Catholic, I am sometimes looked upon as a hateful person who thinks that most things people do is evil...

This is a common case of... Blame the religion for the act of the people...

Every religious person has got a label...

Catholics: Irish Terrorists, Crazy Inquisitors and Our Priests Sexualy Abuse Little Children...

Muslims: Terrorists, Woman Abusers, Jew Haters...

Pagans: Satan Worshipers...and baby eaters

Atheists: Immoral, Anti-Religion...

the list goes on and on...


The thing is, we can never blame the majority or the religion for the actions of the few...

We are guilty of something...

The sooner we realize that the better off we'll be by shutting up and living our lives the way we want too without trying to tell someone how to do theirs...

God knows I've done some stupid stuff in my lifetime... :D

The hebrews were not to take any graven images at all, because G-d didn't take form upon the mountains. He came as fire to them, so no image was to be made. Yet people pray to crosses, they pray to statues, and they pray to pictures. They pray to angels and to saints, and they pray to the Virgin Mary, whom even Jesus said was less important then a believer.

Out of curiousity, how do catholics justify praying to the saints and the Virgin Mary? Especially if Jesus said she was less important than a believer. Doesn't God say he's sposed to be the sole object of worship?



Pagans: Satan Worshipers...and baby eaters

Well can ya blame us? Those lil suckers are delicious!;)

How can you be a liberal and a Catholic? Liberalism promotes sodomy, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, atheism, and pronography, which all go against our Holy Mother Church.
There is a difference between "promotes" and "allows".

How can you be a liberal and a Catholic? Liberalism promotes sodomy, birth control, abortion, homosexuality, atheism, and pronography, which all go against our Holy Mother Church.

My family is full of "Cafeteria Catholics". Something about Catholicism, there seems to be a heck of a lot of followers who pick and choose what they like and don't like in the religion.

Specificly the intolerant asses on this board who spawn biggotry and hate in the name of the Lord. I myself am a fairly liberal Catholic, and it appals me when people use the name of Christ to support their irrational hatred of gays, jews and the like. These people claim to be Christian, but they are not. What ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did not Jesus promote tolerance? Religion-based biggotry is the greatest hypocracy there is.

I could not have said it better myself.

My family is full of "Cafeteria Catholics". Something about Catholicism, there seems to be a heck of a lot of followers who pick and choose what they like and don't like in the religion.

How do you mean?

How do you mean?
When compared to the dominant Protestant churches in America, Catholics are generally more accepting of homosexuals, abortion, birth control, etc, even though the Catholic Church is firmly against those things.

Specificly the intolerant asses on this board who spawn biggotry and hate in the name of the Lord. I myself am a fairly liberal Catholic, and it appals me when people use the name of Christ to support their irrational hatred of gays, jews and the like. These people claim to be Christian, but they are not. What ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did not Jesus promote tolerance? Religion-based biggotry is the greatest hypocracy there is.

People have a misconception of Christian attitude towards homosexuals. Believeing that homosexual sex is a sin does not equate to hating homosexuals. All sin is sin in the eyes of God. For anyone to hate anyone else on the grounds of a sin would be to hate themselves as well along with everyone else in the human race, and the human race's history (execpt Jesus). You are correct in the love thy neighbourgh idea. Love sinners, hate sin.

I am an Atheist. I do not hate Christians,Muslims,Jews,Hindus, Bhuddists,Paganists or Wiccans. As I do not believe in a god I do not find it constrictive to hate others who do. That would be for me like hating children who belive in the Easter Bunny! I do however hate intolerence in all forms. I have for many reasons been on the recieving end of bigotry and intolerence. Not least for being an Atheist but also for being a woman who is both disabled and Irish. I leave my dislike and Hates for people I have met or who have directly blighted my life. So I have disliked many politicians and religious leaders who have promoted intolerence as well as political movements and individuals who have practiced intolerence. But Christians per se no.

I am an Atheist. I do not hate Christians,Muslims,Jews,Hindus, Bhuddists,Paganists or Wiccans. As I do not believe in a god I do not find it constrictive to hate others who do. That would be for me like hating children who belive in the Easter Bunny!
i don't hate people who believe in God, but i feel about them the way i would feel if i met a grown adult who believed in the Easter Bunny.

i don't hate people who believe in God, but i feel about them the way i would feel if i met a grown adult who believed in the Easter Bunny.

So you dont hate Christians, you just have a patronising opinion of them.

I used to be an athiest too, now I happen to know there is more to it. Now about god... who knows. However I can relate to "people blighting my life"

Originally Posted by Bottle
i don't hate people who believe in God, but i feel about them the way i would feel if i met a grown adult who believed in the Easter Bunny.

And believe me that in itself is a stuctured belief that leads to persecution and bloody hate crimes. That's why I'm here defending Catholicism, at least they don't have a bleak view of existence. God I'm tired of the proliferation of that piece of cr*p.

I myself am called a Christian, now wether I practice completely as a Christian is another thing. Personally, I am getting more and more turned against my church every passing day. I hate Christian hypocrites, and the people who try to force a belief on you, yet can't be an example of following it. Their standards are so high that they can't even live up to them, but they will go and tell you that since you aren't living up to them, that you will "die/burn in hell". I have chosen to believe that there is a God, and that Jesus did come to Earth and do wonderful things and die for our sins. Other than that, I don't really know what to believe, all religious groups are in it for the wrong purposes.

Sounds like a Deist in the making :D

I used to be an athiest too, now I happen to know there is more to it. Now about god... who knows. However I can relate to "people blighting my life"

Originally Posted by Bottle
i don't hate people who believe in God, but i feel about them the way i would feel if i met a grown adult who believed in the Easter Bunny.

And believe me that in itself is a stuctured belief that leads to persecution and bloody hate crimes. That's why I'm here defending Catholicism, at least they don't have a bleak view of existence. God I'm tired of the proliferation of that piece of cr*p.


Ooooo... and another possible Deist :)

Forgive me if I sound overly excited. It's just not that often I see anyone that resembles a Deist - mostly I find myself stuck between the strong atheists (those that vehemently deny the existence of a deity) and the religious types.

I myself am called a Christian, now wether I practice completely as a Christian is another thing. Personally, I am getting more and more turned against my church every passing day. I hate Christian hypocrites, and the people who try to force a belief on you, yet can't be an example of following it. Their standards are so high that they can't even live up to them, but they will go and tell you that since you aren't living up to them, that you will "die/burn in hell". I have chosen to believe that there is a God, and that Jesus did come to Earth and do wonderful things and die for our sins. Other than that, I don't really know what to believe, all religious groups are in it for the wrong purposes.

I like you. We should get together. And you sound Christian to me. You just have issues with certain attitues from some people who call themselves "Christians."

Many of you are taking things out of context. First of all, to the person who started the thread, the bible teaches about controlling our tongues and the words that come out of them:

Jas 3:3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
Jas 3:4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

And as far as the bible advocating slavery, it did not do as such. What it advocated was submitting to your master in God's sake, kill with kindness (that was straight of Jesus). It also tells us how we need to submit to our masters (the bible still applies today) and to submit ourselves unto God. We need to be obedient.

As far as war goes, there is one going on. However, it is not of the flesh. It is not man against man. There is a war going on in the mind, Satan tries to fool people and is referred in the scripture as the 'author of confusion.' Many people do not realize the battle ground for this new age holy war is the mind. And as I said before, verse 5 also refers to the obedience we need to the real commander in chief: God. We also need to realize to put on our Armor of God as shown in Ephesians 6:12-20. God will fight for your, because the ultimate fight is between God and Satan, and if we serve God we defy satan and in serving him Satan will flee as said in James 4:7.

2co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

and reiterated in Ephesians:
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this WORLD, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

As far as Bigots go, the bible does not withhold bigotry at all. Why would it? God created all mankind, why would he scorn his own creation; his own flesh and blood? The love of God is infinite and for all man. Anyone who says otherwise does not bring glory to God and is just retarded. I shouldn't even have to refer to scripture on that one.

As far as any other intolerances, there are distinctions where Christians spend their time and whom they spend their time with. Gays, lesbians, if that's what you want to be then there is no right in Christ to say or legislate against. However, in the same breath, we have to realize a good Christian will not associate him/her self with the morally corrupt:


Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2co 6:14 Be ye not UNEQUALLY YOKED together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Specificly the intolerant asses on this board who spawn biggotry and hate in the name of the Lord. I myself am a fairly liberal Catholic, and it appals me when people use the name of Christ to support their irrational hatred of gays, jews and the like. These people claim to be Christian, but they are not. What ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did not Jesus promote tolerance? Religion-based biggotry is the greatest hypocracy there is.
I sympathize (as I hate people who call themselves atheists but act like asses), but you are trying to falliciously distance yourself from them by saying that they aren't christians. That's a "no true scotsman" fallacy. All one needs to be a christian is to believe that Jesus was the messiah sent by god and to try to follow what one believes his word to mean. Anything beyond that is sect squabbling.

I once again site my questoin: Prove Jesus' hatred for these people using the New Testament. Stop using the ancient, archaic Jewish texts as your crutch for intollerance.

P.S. Didn't Jesus reject most of the Old Testament anyways? (Honest question here: I havn't touched a bible in years.)

No, he said himself that he came not to reject the mosaic laws but to fulfill them. What was rejected was the ceremonial cleansing traditions they had to go through before the sins of the world were taken up through Christ and cleansed through his blood and the Holy Spirit.

ever heard of "The Voice of the Martyrs" (Persecution.com) its an organization devoted to revealing the persecution of Christianity. i have tons of information about people who are in prision for preaching. in fact, this october, Christians were arrested for preaching where? in Philledelphia. yes, the "city of brotherly love" is calling Christian terachings and the Bible "Hate speech"
i read about this on another forum, and it was found out that this wasnt a peaceful protest so therefor the artical was full of the proverbial

each religion has its extremeists, and one thing that gets me is when christians, muslms and jews are at each other's throats concidering they all worship the same god, in their own ways. the thing is, these teachings come from tribal days, when very little of the earth was know. mind you, you really only hear from four of the twelve diciples in the bible, and we know men can corrupt things for their own purposes. couple that with the corruption in the papalship over the centuried, books being added and removed, and the bible that became available after the likes of Martin Luther and other protastant church founders would have been vastly different to the original version. do i believe jesus existed? yes. do i believe he is the son of god? no. do i believe he was the king of jews? yes, in the same sense that queen elizabeth is the queen of britain, its dependancies and any independant nation claiming her as its queen. then again, notice that nothing like what happend with moses, jesus and muhammod (sp?) has happened since the creation of islam? anyone remotly suggesting another religion since has been branded a cultist. in the end, it is all about power. i mean, for all we know, when muhammod, when he meditated, was on some drugs, and believed the angel was talking to him. in the end, i subscribe to two things:
a) as martin luther stated, the bible should be free to be interpreted by each individual person
and
b) people should be free in their beliefs, and be free from others force their beliefs upon them

And as far as the bible advocating slavery, it did not do as such. What it advocated was submitting to your master in God's sake, kill with kindness (that was straight of Jesus). It also tells us how we need to submit to our masters (the bible still applies today) and to submit ourselves unto God. We need to be obedient.

The bible doesn't advocate slavery? Since you're fond of posting bible verses, have a few that advocate slavery.

en.9:25-27
And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Gen.16:8-9
And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
Gen.17:12-13
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised.
Gen.24:35-36
And the LORD hath blessed my master [Abraham] greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses. And Sarah my master's wife bare a son to my master when she was old: and unto him hath he given all that he hath.
Gen.26:12-14
Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him. And the man waxed great, and went forward, and grew until he became very great: For he had possession of flocks, and possession of herds, and great store of servants.
Ex.12:44
But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
Ex.20:17
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Ex.21:2-6
If thou buy a Hebrew servant....
Ex.21:7
And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant....
Ex.21:20-21
If a man smite his servant or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand, he shall be surely punished; notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his money.
Ex.21:26-27
And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
Ex.22:2-3
If a thief ... have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
Lev.19:20
And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
Lev.22:11
If the priest buy any soul with his money....
Lev.25:39
And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee....
Lev.25:44-46
Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you: of them shall ye buy bond-men and bond-maids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land. And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever.
Dt.5:21
Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Dt.15:12
And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman be sold unto thee....
Dt.20:10-11
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
Dt.20:14
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself.
Jos.9:23
Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God.
Lk.17:7-9
But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
1 Cor.7:21-22
Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
Eph.6:5
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
Col.3:22
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.
Col.3:22
Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.
1 Tim.6:1-5
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise ... he is proud, knowing nothing.... From such withdraw thyself.
Tit.2:9-10
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
1 Pet.2:18
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

As far as Bigots go, the bible does not withhold bigotry at all. Why would it? God created all mankind, why would he scorn his own creation; his own flesh and blood? The love of God is infinite and for all man. Anyone who says otherwise does not bring glory to God and is just retarded. I shouldn't even have to refer to scripture on that one.

The OT is about nothing but biggotry. It is made clear over and over and over that the Hebrews are god's chosen people, that he favors them above all other people. God kills, brings plagues and otherwise destroys those that oppose them.

There's plenty of biggotry in the NT as well. Paul was an anti-semite. Martin Luther wrote his treatise "The Jews and Their Lies" based on the writings of Paul. Hitler later used that very treatise to vindicate his "Final Solution" policy.

A sensible discussion about religion is at an end when people begin to write page-long posts consisting of nothing more than verses out of a holy book of any religion concerned. Like Godwin's Law for Theology.

As for me, I think I'm developing from an agnostic into a deist as well. There's 'something' out there, but damned if I'll put unquestioning belief in any text written by humans on that subject.

And all these texts are written by humans.

What about all the parts ending in "They shall be put to death" or "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Even if it really means poisoner.)


Several distinctions needed to be made about the bible. When Jesus preached about turning the other cheek, about forgiving the iniquities of one's brother, he was speaking of the individual forgiveness. When talking about captial punishment instituted by the government, that is way different. The apostle Paul talked about:


Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

But not only did Paul advocate government instituted deaht penalty, but 25 lines after the 6th commandment (thou shalt not kill) God says:

Ex 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

As far as having to kill the witches, that was excempt through Christ much like the offerings and rituals that no longer apply because of the fulfilment of the law through the messiah:

Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

But witchcraft, adultry, etc. are still abominations to God and you will not reach death in this life, but you will have eternal death of the soul if you do not live by God, through his commandments.

The bible doesn't advocate slavery? Since you're fond of posting bible verses, have a few that advocate slavery.

en.9:25-27
And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Gen.16:8-9
And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
Gen.17:12-13
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised.
Gen.24:35-36
And the LORD hath blessed my master [Abraham] greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses. And Sarah my master's wife bare a son to my master when she was old: and unto him hath he given all that he hath.
Gen.26:12-14
Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him. And the man waxed great, and went forward, and grew until he became very great: For he had possession of flocks, and possession of herds, and great store of servants.
Ex.12:44
But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
Ex.20:17
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Ex.21:2-6
If thou buy a Hebrew servant....
Ex.21:7
And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant....
Ex.21:20-21
If a man smite his servant or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand, he shall be surely punished; notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished, for he is his money.
Ex.21:26-27
And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.
Ex.22:2-3
If a thief ... have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
Lev.19:20
And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
Lev.22:11
If the priest buy any soul with his money....
Lev.25:39
And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee....
Lev.25:44-46
Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you: of them shall ye buy bond-men and bond-maids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land. And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever.
Dt.5:21
Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Dt.15:12
And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman be sold unto thee....
Dt.20:10-11
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.
Dt.20:14
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself.
Jos.9:23
Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God.
Lk.17:7-9
But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
1 Cor.7:21-22
Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
Eph.6:5
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
Col.3:22
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.
Col.3:22
Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.
1 Tim.6:1-5
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise ... he is proud, knowing nothing.... From such withdraw thyself.
Tit.2:9-10
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God.
1 Pet.2:18
Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.



The OT is about nothing but biggotry. It is made clear over and over and over that the Hebrews are god's chosen people, that he favors them above all other people. God kills, brings plagues and otherwise destroys those that oppose them.

There's plenty of biggotry in the NT as well. Paul was an anti-semite. Martin Luther wrote his treatise "The Jews and Their Lies" based on the writings of Paul. Hitler later used that very treatise to vindicate his "Final Solution" policy.

There's a difference between being a slave and being a servant. We all are servants unto God and need to submit ourselves unto him. Much of the new testaments account of being servants was examples, parables, of servants and how they apply to the spiritual. It is often said we are earthen vessels, our natural, and we need natural examples to understand spiritual philosphies. We are God's servants, but we do have free choice. that's the difference between a slave and a servant. We are not slaves, we are not forced to serve God. But a servant is obedience unto our masters (who is our master?) God. We need to be obedient in him and follow his commandments. How could Paul be anti-sematic when he himself was Jewish? He was high in the Jewish hierarchy and actually persecuted the original church before he received a vision from Christ.

The Hebrews were God's people and God did smite those who went against them. However, God chose them because of their faith. Everytime they chose not to trust in God and serve him horrible things happened to them. You forget, the reason God smote those against the Hebrews were not believing in him in their own choice. Like the Egyptians, they had a chance to let the Hebrews go but they did not. They pursued the Hebrews to destroy them and God prevailed in his promise to the Hebrews. That is the fault of nobody but the leaders of the Egyptians. That would repeat itself throughout history until the Hebrews rejected God in flesh.

It is difficult to believe that a faith that is supposed to be grounded in love is being met with hatred.

using the scriptures is not a thing to base a debate about religion on. these were written by men, thus can be constrewned to the writers belief. we are only taking the church's word and the author's word that these words are true, and even then, there is proof that these words have been bastardised by people since they have been written, and even sections removed, cos they clash with the present leaders' belief. there are many contradictions throughout them. also, people complain about sex and violence in films, etc, yet the bible is just riddled with both.

I once again site my questoin: Prove Jesus' hatred for these people using the New Testament. Stop using the ancient, archaic Jewish texts as your crutch for intollerance.

P.S. Didn't Jesus reject most of the Old Testament anyways? (Honest question here: I havn't touched a bible in years.)


Matthew 18:7 (King James Version)
"Woe unto the world because of offences!"



Also Christ once said, "I bring nothing new." (He was coming to carry-out what was written in the scriptures, the coming of the Messiah). He was not coming to challenge the old law (At least overall, the old law was not to be challenged, parts of it (ie. stoning adulterors) were to be challenged)

Would you care to offer proof of that, Resistancia?

Would you care to offer proof of that, Resistancia?
what? so you believe god came down and wrote the new testament (not to mention the old testament) him/her/itself? and for the bastardisation, the papalship was treated like any kingship during the dark ages, in that it was a seat of power and influence over people. why else would it be deemed that only priests were alowed to read the bible, and the pope have control over doctrine. hell, there is even a doctrine that states the word of the pope is the word of god. what more proof do you need besides that single point. it is practically saying what ever the pope says goes.

It is difficult to believe that a faith that is supposed to be grounded in love is being met with hatred.

In scripture it says people of the world will hate Christians. Jesus says we can overcome the world because he overcame it also. Satan will always use those who do no have the Holy Spirit against Christians to win souls. All pain and all confusion stems from him, they call him in scripture the author of confusions. Every denomination that does not take the entire bible as a whole is basically a fraud driven by Satan.

In scripture it says people of the world will hate Christians. Jesus says we can overcome the world because he overcame it also. Satan will always use those who do no have the Holy Spirit against Christians to win souls. All pain and all confusion stems from him, they call him in scripture the author of confusions. Every denomination that does not take the entire bible as a whole is basically a fraud driven by Satan.


God is the author of all sin, not Satan. God is the Absolute Sovereign of the entire universe, and as such, he is the author of everything, good and evil.

If Satan does suck somebody in with his lies, it's only because God willed it to happen.

Yes, he did. His followers, however, mostly do not. Even his first Pope, Peter, advocated women as cattle and the slaughter of homosexuals.

If you take out all of the sections of the New Testament that are the product of Paul, you're left with some nice stuff from Jesus. It's all you really need.

Rather like a Muslim leaving out the Hadith, if you ask me.

Specificly the intolerant asses on this board who spawn biggotry and hate in the name of the Lord. I myself am a fairly liberal Catholic, and it appals me when people use the name of Christ to support their irrational hatred of gays, jews and the like. These people claim to be Christian, but they are not. What ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did not Jesus promote tolerance? Religion-based biggotry is the greatest hypocracy there is.

*agrees*

Yes, he did. His followers, however, mostly do not. Even his first Pope, Peter, advocated women as cattle and the slaughter of homosexuals.

Funny cause many people (historians) actually wonder if peter himself was not a homosexual.

Specificly the intolerant asses on this board who spawn biggotry and hate in the name of the Lord. I myself am a fairly liberal Catholic, and it appals me when people use the name of Christ to support their irrational hatred of gays, jews and the like. These people claim to be Christian, but they are not. What ever happened to "love thy neighbor"? Did not Jesus promote tolerance? Religion-based biggotry is the greatest hypocracy there is.

I agree completely. I also hate the athiests on here asking for 'proof' towards God. As an atheist myself i think that the extremities people on these threads go to, on both sides of the argument, are absoulutely disgusting.

Figured I'd jump right in here with my experiences.

I was a Catholic. Then I learned, whoop, I like guys. Long before I had this revelation, I promised to myself if I couldn't be 100 percent behind the pope and the church (shyeah, like ANYONE is 100 percent behind the pope and church, but I digress), I'd leave. Well, I realized that the pope was wrong, the bible was wrong, and that I was no longer welcome in the church. So I left. I refuse to be a hypocrite by calling myself a homosexual catholic. The people who claim to be catholics and still support stuff like homosexuality make me sick to my stomach. Grow a pair, stand up for yourself, and leave that godforsaken fossilized institution.


It does seem hypocritical in the extreme, however, to drag out a few ancient verses in leviticus to support your point when you ignore practically the entire Torah (first five books of the bible), not to mention almost every wisdom book from ecclesiastes to Sirach, and almost all of the historical books in the OT, from Exodus to Kings. Most Catholics ignore just about every bible verse in leviticus especially, conveniently forgetting about the verse prohibiting eating pork, forgetting the prohibition on eating meat and dairy at the same table, forgetting the verse that prevents you from wearing a garment of two threads (any synthetic material is technically a "garment of two threads"), and many other verses. They're just as much of a "Cafeteria Catholic" as those who support homosexuality et al.

Throwing out verses from Paul's letters seems dubious to me as well, primarily since you ignore most of those writings too. Firstly, almost all catholics now (thankfully) ignore the verses condoning the oppression of women and the legalization of slavery prevalent throughout all of Paul's work. Face it folks, Paul was a bigoted, homophobic, rascist, sexist, and extremely frightening man; the fact that his teachings hold such sway over such a vast segment of the population should frighten any freedom-loving members of our society (shame christianity seemed to take more after the demagoguery of Paul than the high-minded philosophy of Christ).

Figured I'd jump right in here with my experiences.

I was a Catholic. Then I learned, whoop, I like guys. Long before I had this revelation, I promised to myself if I couldn't be 100 percent behind the pope and the church (shyeah, like ANYONE is 100 percent behind the pope and church, but I digress), I'd leave. Well, I realized that the pope was wrong, the bible was wrong, and that I was no longer welcome in the church. So I left. I refuse to be a hypocrite by calling myself a homosexual catholic. The people who claim to be catholics and still support stuff like homosexuality make me sick to my stomach. Grow a pair, stand up for yourself, and leave that godforsaken fossilized institution.


It does seem hypocritical in the extreme, however, to drag out a few ancient verses in leviticus to support your point when you ignore practically the entire Torah (first five books of the bible), not to mention almost every wisdom book from ecclesiastes to Sirach, and almost all of the historical books in the OT, from Exodus to Kings. Most Catholics ignore just about every bible verse in leviticus especially, conveniently forgetting about the verse prohibiting eating pork, forgetting the prohibition on eating meat and dairy at the same table, forgetting the verse that prevents you from wearing a garment of two threads (any synthetic material is technically a "garment of two threads"), and many other verses. They're just as much of a "Cafeteria Catholic" as those who support homosexuality et al.

Throwing out verses from Paul's letters seems dubious to me as well, primarily since you ignore most of those writings too. Firstly, almost all catholics now (thankfully) ignore the verses condoning the oppression of women and the legalization of slavery prevalent throughout all of Paul's work. Face it folks, Paul was a bigoted, homophobic, rascist, sexist, and extremely frightening man; the fact that his teachings hold such sway over such a vast segment of the population should frighten any freedom-loving members of our society (shame christianity seemed to take more after the demagoguery of Paul than the high-minded philosophy of Christ).


The old Mosaic law about clothing and pork were ceremonial laws, that have no significance today. The old Mosaic law is divided into Morality law and Ceremonial law. The Morality law (no sodomy, no bestiality, no incest, etc) holds true to this day and must be observed, the ceremonial law, need not to be observed.


Don't forget, it's not just Paul, it's Timothy and Peter also.

Various verses on gender conduct.

1 Corinthians 11:7-9
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.


1 Corinthians 14:33-38
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.


Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.


1 Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


2 Timothy 3:6
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts/


1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives.


1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.



Therefore I believe that femicommies have no dispute with men, their dispute is with God Almighty. They can't argue against what is written in the bible, so they back the atheist movement. But the bible is quite clear on how a husband is to honor and care for his wife, they're not meant to take advantage of a wife submitting herself to his authority. They're meant to lead and lead well. (I'll go find some verses on this)

The old Mosaic law about clothing and pork were ceremonial laws, that have no significance today. The old Mosaic law is divided into Morality law and Ceremonial law. The Morality law (no sodomy, no bestiality, no incest, etc) holds true to this day and must be observed, the ceremonial law, need not to be observed.

I have little reason to see why "ceremonial" law isn't really "Jewish law we oppose so we'll stop using it" and why "moral" laws aren't really "Jewish laws we agree with so we'll keep using them."

Many christian verses have outlived their usefulness. The verses concerning divorce (the only cause social conservatives have rallied behind that Jesus himself actually supported) were once considered moral law, now most consider them ceremonial law. The verses supporting slavery (levitical law says you can own slaves as long as they're not from your own country; I find it hard to believe that too is a "ceremonial" law) were treated in a similar fashion. The verses considering the oppression of women have likewise been cast aside. The time has come for the homophobic verses in the bible to join the sexist and pro-slavery verses in christianity's corner of shame, something they previously believed, are ashamed of, and conveniently ignore despite the fact that according to them it's just as much divinely inspiried as "turn the other cheek"

There's a difference between being a slave and being a servant.

The KJV uses "servant" as an euphamism for "slave". Read the hebrew and greek. Further, those quotes aren't discussing how to be a "servant" to the lord, but how to be a good slave to your master.

If you take out all of the sections of the New Testament that are the product of Paul, you're left with some nice stuff from Jesus. It's all you really need.

Rather like a Muslim leaving out the Hadith, if you ask me.
Which Hadith? There are libraries full of Hadiths and they all contradict each other.

Figured I'd jump right in here with my experiences.

I was a Catholic. Then I learned, whoop, I like guys. Long before I had this revelation, I promised to myself if I couldn't be 100 percent behind the pope and the church (shyeah, like ANYONE is 100 percent behind the pope and church, but I digress), I'd leave. Well, I realized that the pope was wrong, the bible was wrong, and that I was no longer welcome in the church. So I left. I refuse to be a hypocrite by calling myself a homosexual catholic. The people who claim to be catholics and still support stuff like homosexuality make me sick to my stomach. Grow a pair, stand up for yourself, and leave that godforsaken fossilized institution.


It does seem hypocritical in the extreme, however, to drag out a few ancient verses in leviticus to support your point when you ignore practically the entire Torah (first five books of the bible), not to mention almost every wisdom book from ecclesiastes to Sirach, and almost all of the historical books in the OT, from Exodus to Kings. Most Catholics ignore just about every bible verse in leviticus especially, conveniently forgetting about the verse prohibiting eating pork, forgetting the prohibition on eating meat and dairy at the same table, forgetting the verse that prevents you from wearing a garment of two threads (any synthetic material is technically a "garment of two threads"), and many other verses. They're just as much of a "Cafeteria Catholic" as those who support homosexuality et al.

Throwing out verses from Paul's letters seems dubious to me as well, primarily since you ignore most of those writings too. Firstly, almost all catholics now (thankfully) ignore the verses condoning the oppression of women and the legalization of slavery prevalent throughout all of Paul's work. Face it folks, Paul was a bigoted, homophobic, rascist, sexist, and extremely frightening man; the fact that his teachings hold such sway over such a vast segment of the population should frighten any freedom-loving members of our society (shame christianity seemed to take more after the demagoguery of Paul than the high-minded philosophy of Christ).

The laws of Leviticus were nulled not only when Jesus fulfilled the prophecies but also when he brought a vision unto Peter saying:
Ac 11:6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Ac 11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
Ac 11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth
Ac 11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

The common/ unclean was not only literal about what foods they ate but also figurative of what type of people they are allowed to bring to God. The symbolism is proven when Peter brings in Cornelius an uncircumsized, gentile into the early Christian religion. That is when we broke away from the Jews and the early ceremonial laws were nullified. That's why we do not need to bring sacrifices at the alter. When's the last time you slaughtered your unblemished sheep at the tabernacle?


Paul was a prophet of God. He did not advocate oppression or slavery. He was not bigoted homophobic or racist. You have to take the entire context of Paul's writings, many of them were letters in responses to things that were said. You have to read the entire chapter and perhaps the chatper before it to comprehend what he was referring to. Submission phrases have more to do with respect than with oppression. Misquoting and taking Paul's teachings out of context is warned:


2pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.



Homosexuals have never been advocated in the Bible, why do you think God destroyed Sodom?

2pe 2:6
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Paul taught on the subject:

1co 6:18
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

and reiterated in:

1co 7:2
Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.1co 7:3Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

It goes onto say in Marriage, the fornication is not a sin, it is a Godly union:

1co 7:28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

Ro 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet Ro 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Ro 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Catholics have ignored much of the bible. Like praying to Mary, Jesus often said His name is in the power, praying in his name, baptizing in his name. He is the mediator between us and God, not priests, not Mary. Many of their medallions are used almost like miniature idols.

One thing I do want to stress, however, I do not advocate homosexuality. I think it is immoral, ungodly. I also think that it is immoral and ungodly to place judgement on those who choose to be secular and do as they please. Jesus said Judge not lest thee be judged thyself. ANother thing is there is a huge difference between discerning in the spirit and judging. Discerning is recognizing something is wrong, something is evil. Judging is telling the person doing the wrong or evil that his/her actions make him/her evil. That goes along with hate sin but love the sinner type of attitude. If you're happy being gay, then by all means because I have absolutely no say what you do with your life (also what you do with your soul) because it is yours and yours only.

Catholicism is not Godforsaken, that statement requires that God was with them in the first place. They left God the first minute they compromised and incorporated Pagan institutions in their religion, i.e., Easter bunny, etc.

Begging pardon here, but this is not the place for sectarian squabbles. We're just proving right the guys who think that Christians are a bunch of hypocrites and hate-mongers. Personally, I'm willing to call anyone a Christian that agrees to the Apostle's Creed. And to be quite honest, God is the only one who knows for sure, so I think that we'll let Him sort it out in the end. Bickering won't get us anywhere.

So to sum up, no more Protestants bashing Catholics, and no more Catholics attacking Protestants. If we're really followers of Christ, then let's prove it by our love, like we're supposed to.