NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/11/180128.shtml

The poor Palestinians, who want nothing more than to live in peace. Couple of interesting points here.

Furthermore, 79 percent expressed support for the revolt in some way, and 68 percent endorsed suicide-homicide bombings against Israelis.

In a poll of 1,179 people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip conducted by Palestinian Jerusalem Media and Communication Center, 51 percent said the goal of the 20-month-old uprisings should extend to "liberating all of historic Palestine," the territory that includes present-day Israel.

And you say Israel is commiting genocide!:rolleyes:
This is what happens if their intifada succeeds.

I'm not going to participate in this debate. Your mind is 100% made up, and I won't change it, nor will I waste time and breath trying.

I'm not going to participate in this debate. Your mind is 100% made up, and I won't change it, nor will I waste time and breath trying.
Touche, but I backed it up with evidence.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/11/180128.shtml

The poor Palestinians, who want nothing more than to live in peace. Couple of interesting points here.


And you say Israel is commiting genocide!:rolleyes:
This is what happens if their intifada succeeds.


Irresponsible journalism at its worst. Lets create more hostility by basing all of the palestinians on a poll of like 1700?? How miserable. This is the blantant hate that exudes from people that needs to stop. That was clearly anti-palestinian and if such an article was written concerning the Jewish people it would be screamed from the highest heaven that it is anti-semitism.

When both parties realize they are both terrorists maybe once there is that common ground achieved then peace can begin.

There are no laws in love and war.

This is why no peace deal will ever include "right of return" for Palestinians.. however, it doesn't mean there can't ever be relative peace, especially with the wall up now. Co-existence is possible, even if it takes 50 years for the hate to fade.

Vaangardia- Yes, because obviously they should have gone and asked all the 2.4 million people! THINK! Its a representative sample, its what surveys always use.:rolleyes:

Irresponsible journalism at its worst. Lets create more hostility by basing all of the palestinians on a poll of like 1700??

That's standard for all types of polls anywhere in the world. A sample of that size is going to be pretty accurate anywhere you go. The polls for an election are usually anywhere from 500 to 2000 people, where 1700 would be considered a large sample group.

Touche, but I backed it up with evidence.
I backed my claim, that socialists support Palestine, with evidence too. Was that photo from a protest not enough?

Vaangardia- Yes, because obviously they should have gone and asked all the 2.4 million people! THINK! Its a representative sample, its what surveys always use.:rolleyes:

Opinions vary widely from region to region. I could easily take a poll from San Fransisco and say "Look! 50 percent of America is gay!" Or take a poll from the Sunni triangle and say "80 percent of Iraqis abhor the occupation!" But it wouldn't be true.

Irresponsible journalism at its worst. Lets create more hostility by basing all of the palestinians on a poll of like 1700?? How miserable. This is the blantant hate that exudes from people that needs to stop. That was clearly anti-palestinian and if such an article was written concerning the Jewish people it would be screamed from the highest heaven that it is anti-semitism.


That's a very good sample considering the number of Palestines. And the results are not surprising, given the four decades of war, manipulation by the leadership, and violence from both sides.

Of course, to really know what the results mean we would have to know the questions and the answers to all of them, not to just those highlited by a right-wing publication. In fact, for me it's quite encouraging that 43% of the Palestinians would be happy with a state in the West Bank.

What this means is that there's a lot to be done still to solve this situation. Fortunately, it seems that the leaderships of both sides are willing to act this time.

Opinions vary widely from region to region. I could easily take a poll from San Fransisco and say "Look! 50 percent of America is gay!" Or take a poll from the Sunni triangle and say "80 percent of Iraqis abhor the occupation!" But it wouldn't be true.
No, you couldn't. You would have to reveal your methodology and set limits based on that. To get good statistics from a sample you need to make it random, that is, across regions, incomes, races, etc. Otherwise you have to qualify your statement.

There's a whole branch of mathematics dealing with this. Not surprisingly it's called statistics.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/11/180128.shtml


In a poll of 1,179 people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip conducted by Palestinian Jerusalem Media and Communication Center, 51 percent said the goal of the 20-month-old uprisings should extend to "liberating all of historic Palestine,"

Who lives in the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Just Palestinians or are there some Israelis there as well.
Evidence you have not provided. You have cited a "news" report from a site that has in its banner a recomendation to wear "Bush Country" items. Not, one thinks, a site that even attempts to be a neutral reporter of the news.

What does liberating mean? Do you have the full context of the survey, or just a selected extract that may, or may not, have been selected to make a political point. If liberating, means liberating access to, then there is no conflict here. If liberating, means taking control of, a very very strange interpretation of the word, then there may be a problem.

I would suggest that you actually look at the details and the analysis of this poll (http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/studies/aid/partone.htm#1.5) , which the CNS site could not even be bothered to link to, before jumping to conclusions. You will see that it is highly critical of the second Intifada in general.

Sanctaphrax, how can anybody defend Israel against Palastine.

What a joke.

Sanctaphrax, how can anybody defend Israel against Palastine.

What a joke.
I reverse that on you. You defend suicide bombers? People who target civilians?

I reverse that on you. You defend suicide bombers? People who target civilians?
Typical IDF mouthpiece: "all Palestinians are suicide bomber, babykilling terrorists!"

Sanctaphrax, do you know who were the first suicide bombers of Palestine, after WW2?

I do wish that there was an alternative for the the Pal people, but what other alternatives do they have.

How would you like it if I came into your house, took over all the house, and then gave you the the toilet as compensation.

Typical IDF mouthpiece: "all Palestinians are suicide bomber, babykilling terrorists!"
Maybe not, by the vast majority support them morally or literally. I say we let Israel go manifest destiny on them.

In the news we get, only the Palestinians are described as terrorists, and yet the Israelis have a long history of terrorism - both before and since the founding of the Jewish state.

At least three Israeli Prime Ministers have been involved in campaigns of terror.

Menachem Begin was the commander of the terrorist group that blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946, killing 96 people. He was Israeli Prime Minister in the '70s and '80s. He once described a massacre as "a splendid act of conquest".

Yitzak Shamir was Prime Minister until 1992. He had been a leader of a Jewish group called the Stern Gang which carried out a string of assassinations.

The present Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, has long been involved in terror. In 1983, he was found indirectly, but personally, responsible for a civilian massacre by Lebanese militia in two Palestinian refugee camps. At least 800 innocent men, women and children were murdered in cold blood, most of them Palestinians, after Sharon ordered his men to allow the militiamen access to the camps.

Israel's denials
John Pilger interviewed Dori Gold, Senior Adviser to the Israeli Prime Minister, and asked why Israel fails to condemn its own leaders for their terrorist acts in the same way as they condemn anti-Israeli terrorist acts. Here is a transcript of this conversation:

John Pilger: When those Israelis, who are now famous names, committed act of terrorism just before the birth of Israel, you could have said to them, nothing justifies what you've done, ripping apart all those lives. And they would say it did justify it. What's the difference?

Dori Gold: I think we have now, as an international community, come to a new understanding. I think after September 11th the world got a wake-up call. Because terrorism today is no longer the mad bomber, the anarchist who throws in an explosive device into a crowd to make a point. Terrorism is going to move from the present situation to non-conventional terrorism, to nuclear terrorism. And before we reach that point, we have to remove this scourge from the Earth. And therefore, whether you're talking about the struggle here between Israelis and Palestinians, the struggle in Northern Ireland, the struggle in Sri Lanka, or any of the places where terrorism has been used, we must make a global commitment of all free democracies to eliminate this threat from the world. Period.

JP: Does that include state terrorism?

DG: No country has the right to deliberately target civilians. As no organisation has a right to deliberately target civilians.

JP: What about Israeli terrorism now?

DG: The language of terrorism, you have to be very careful with. Terrorism means deliberately targeting civilians, in a kind of warfare. That's what the terrorism against Israeli schools, coffee shops, malls, has been all about. Israel specifically targets, to the best of its ability, Palestinian terrorist organisations.

JP: All right, when an Israeli sniper shoots an old lady with a cane, trying to get into a hospital for her chemotherapy treatment, in front of a lot of the world's press for one, and frankly we'd be here all day with other examples, isn't that terrorism?

DG: I don't know the case you're speaking about, but I can be convinced of one thing. An Israeli who takes aim - even an Israeli sniper - is taking aim at those engaged in terrorism. Unfortunately, in every kind of warfare, there are cases of civilians who are accidentally killed. Terrorism means putting the crosshairs of the sniper's rifle on a civilian deliberately.

JP: Well that's - that's what I've just described.

DG: That is what - no. I can tell you that did not happen.

JP: It did happen. And - and I think that's where some people have problem with the argument that terrorism exists on - on one side. Your definition is absolutely correct, about civilians. And those suicide bombers are terrorists.

DG: If you mix terrorism and counter-terrorism, if you create some kind of moral obfuscation, you will bring about not just a problem for Israel, but you will bring ab - bring about a problem for the entire western alliance. Because we are all facing this threat.

It's hard to see the difference between what the Israelis call 'counter-terrorism' and terrorism. Whatever the target, both involve the killing of innocent people. This is what happened when Prime Minister Sharon sent tanks into Bethlehem earlier this year.

Amjad Abu Laban, a Palestinian resident of Bethlehem, describes one such incident:

"We had, a… private hospital director who was going from the hospital in Al Hadr to Bethlehem to get supplies for his hospital. His plate number was known to the soldiers, his name was known to the soldiers and they knew that he is the director of a hospital. But he was shot. By a high velocity bullet."

Foreign sponsorship of Israeli terror
Israel's occupation of Palestine would not be possible without the backing of America. In the oil-rich Middle East, Israel is America's deputy sheriff, receiving billions of dollars along with the latest weapons: F-16 aircraft, bombs, missiles, Apache helicopters. Today Israel is the fourth largest military power in the world, and it has nuclear weapons.

Although America is Israel's main arms supplier, it's not widely recognised that Britain also fuels the conflict here, even though it condemns Israel for its illegal occupation. During the first 14 months of the Palestinian uprising, the Blair government approved 230 export licences for weapons and military equipment to Israel.

The categories these covered included large calibre weapons; ammunition; bombs; and vital parts for military aircraft that almost certainly included American-supplied combat helicopters. You may have seen these Apache gunships on the news, firing missiles at densely populated areas. Tony Blair has said, 'we are doing everything we can to bring peace and stability to the Middle East'.

Mustafa Barghouthi is a Palestinian who is all too familiar with the violence facilitated by the Israel's American-supplied weapons. He described the scene when Apache helicopters attacked the area in which he lives:

"We saw Apache helicopters circling in the sky above our heads. Then shooting a missile. The rockets fell just 200 metres from our house. All our windows were shuttered. I had a child in front of me, my daughter, who was 11 years old, shivering from fear. Worried, frightened to death. And I could do nothing to protect her.

"And you don't know whether in the second minute you or your daughter would be dead. That feeling of impotence is indescribable and I will never forget it."

Sure, why not..

"Before (the Palestinians) very eyes we are possessing the land and the villages where they and their ancestors have lived We are the generation of colonizers and without the steel helmet and the gun barrel we cannot plant a tree and build a house." --Moshe Dayan

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." --Golda Meir, in a statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June 1969.

"I have learned that the state of Israel cannot be ruled in our generation without deceit and adventurism." --Moshe Sharett, Israel's first Foreign Minister and later a Prime Minister (p.51 Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel", 1987)

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
--Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
-- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.


In 1923, radical Zionist Ze'ev Jabotinsky-- spiritual father of not only of Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin but of Brooklyn Rabbi Meir Kahane-- wrote that the "sole way" for Jews to deal with Arabs in Palestine was through "total avoidance of all attempts to arrive at a settlement"-which Jabotinsky euphemistically termed the "iron wall" approach. Not coincidentally, a picture of Jabotinsky graces Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's desk. Source: The Village Voice, "Death Wish in the Holy Land," Dec. 12, 2001

During a sermon preceding the 2001 Passover holiday, the influential Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef exclaimed: "May the Holy Name visit retribution on the Arab heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them." He added: "It is forbidden to have pity on them. We must give them missiles with relish, annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones." Source: Ha'aretz April 12, 2001

"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel...Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours."-Rafael Eitan, chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, quoted in Yediot Ahronot, April 13, 1983, and The New York Times, April 14, 1983.

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25,1982.
"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return."-David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, July 18, 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's "Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet," Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."-Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum."

"We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters."-Uri Lubrani, Israeli Prime Minister Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs. Source: "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.

"...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary."-Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From "Israel: an Apartheid State" by Uri Davis, p. 5.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."-Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."-Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, "Complete Diaries," June 12, 1895 entry.

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, head of the Kever Yossev Yeshiva (school of Talmud) in Nablus stated, "The blood of the Jewish people is loved by the Lord; it is therefore redder and their life is preferable."

The four - Michael Ben-Chorin, Netanel Uzari, Yoel Lerner, and Yosef Dayan - issued the book in honor of Goldstein who slaughtered 40 Palestinian men and boys while they knelt in prayer in the Ibrahimi Mosque at Hebron's Machpela Cave, on Purim 1994. (Purim is the Jewish commemoration of vengeance against non-Jews).

The book, Baruch Hagever ("The Blessed Man"), has sold thousands of copies among Jews, and includes an article written by Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, the head of an Israeli yeshiva (religious school). Ginsburg's article "sings the praises" of the killer and calls Goldstein, a 'saint.' "The entire book is indeed full of his praises. It should be noted that no Israeli rabbi (including the 'moderates' among them) has said a word against the contents of the book."

Ginsburg declares in Baruch Hagever that what Goldstein did in murdering the unarmed Palestinian civilians at their house of worship, constitutes, "a fulfillment of a number of commands of Jewish religious law...Among his (Goldstein's) good deeds, as enumerated, are...taking revenge on non-Jews, extermination of the non-Jews who are from the seed of Amalek...and the sanctification of the Holy Name.



........


And let's not forget the study made by an Israeli researcher, submitted to the London School of Economics if I recall correctly, where he asked 84 Israeli children to write letters to Palestinian children, and all the letters contained phrases as eloquent as: "If you come near me, I will kill you" and "Why do you filthy scum stay alive?"

I have the full study in front of me, in Arabic. Do you want me to search for the study in English? Or is mentioning it enough? :rolleyes:

Sanctaphrax, have you read the above?

Is it acceptable to bomb people for your own gain, but when the shoes on the other foot, it becomes terrorism?

Greenmanbry, stop stealing my thundre:)

Thunder

When both parties realize they are both terrorists maybe once there is that common ground achieved then peace can begin.

Agreed. Neither are responsible enough to deserve the land, so how about we fence it off and leave it vacant. There. Now it's fair, everyone is unhappy and knows what it's like to be evicted from their land, problem solved. They can get it back when they shake hands and make up.

I will discount anything said by John Pilger. The guy makes me wanna puke. He's a racist scumbag, I saw a program of his on the BBC and he should be banned from having anything to do with Israel or the Jews.


Greenmanbry- Nice to see you debating again;) Practically the only reason I still debate is for the challenge presented by debating against you!:p

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
--Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994
Won't defend that, these kinds of people are the worst. I wish to completely distance myself from the right wing extreme, and in no way condone anything they say.

radical Zionist Ze'ev Jabotinsky
Again, that enough is cause for me to not even talk about him. He isn't worth it, racist, extremist, and as bad as any terrorist.

Same for Ovadia Yosef.

Ben Gurion, don't forget that this was probably after the Palestinians, along with the neighbours, came knocking on Israels door. Israel wasn't feeling much sympathy for them, and rightfully so.

founder of the World Zionist Organization

My thoughts have been made clear.

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, head of the Kever Yossev Yeshiva (school of Talmud) in Nablus stated
See above.

(Purim is the Jewish commemoration of vengeance against non-Jews)
Alternatively, its the Jewish festival celebrating the murder of Amman (sp?), who called for the murder of all Jews.:rolleyes:

It should be noted that no Israeli rabbi (including the 'moderates' among them) has said a word against the contents of the book."
It should also be noted that no Palestinians have ever said a word against Hamas or Al-Aqsa.


With regards to the last point, I'd like the full study in English. How old were these kids? Where did they learn? Who taught them?

Irresponsible journalism at its worst. Lets create more hostility by basing all of the palestinians on a poll of like 1700?? How miserable.

The reporting of a scientific poll is irresponsible journalism. :headbang: Give me a break.

Greenmanbry- Nice to see you debating again;) Practically the only reason I still debate is for the challenge presented by debating against you!:p

Thanks! :) Nice to see you around too ;)

It should also be noted that no Palestinians have ever said a word against Hamas or Al-Aqsa.

I never said there aren't Palestinians I despise. I'm just saying both sides have some evil people. Both have the same proportion of radicals as well.

With regards to the last point, I'd like the full study in English. How old were these kids? Where did they learn? Who taught them?

Very well.. I will try to find it. The name of the researcher who released the study (he was formerly part of the IDF) is something along the lines of "Ari Sherabi" or Sheraby or something. :confused:

I'm sorry, that's what I'm reading in Arabic, I don't know if it's correct or incorrect. Probably incorrect. I didn't find anything when I typed that into google.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/11/180128.shtml

The poor Palestinians, who want nothing more than to live in peace. Couple of interesting points here.


And you say Israel is commiting genocide!:rolleyes:
This is what happens if their intifada succeeds.

And Israeli's in the occupied territories have said they won't leave if they are told to.

ANd members of Israels own army have openely stated that they will refuse orders to MAKE them leave.

Both sides have factions that wish for peace. Both sides have factions that wish to preserve the status quo. BOTH SIDES have factions that wish to inflict harm on the other.

This is the people who I said do not represent Israel and who I will in no way condone. Even though the ones in the army is somehow understandable. I wouldn't wish to have to clear my parents out of their house.

The reporting of a scientific poll is irresponsible journalism. :headbang: Give me a break.

The reporting of CSN is irresponsible. To selectively choose non representative phrases, out of context,is not good journalism.
If they had wanted to report fairly, they surely would have provided a link to the polll results and analysis. It's in English and on the Web. Why didn't they?

This link is 18 months out of date.

Like always, journalists have manipulated the statistics to present the view they want.

Lets not waste our time and energy on this.