NationStates Jolt Archive

Why is it that almost all left-wing and socialist people in the west are biased in favour of the Palestinians in the current conflict?

Why is it that almost all right-wing and capitalist people in the west are biased in favour of Israel in the current conflict?

The socialists say it's because they "support oppressed peoples and underdogs". The righties are more of a mystery however. I can't see any ideological reason to favour Israel, other perhaps than the fact that they are supported by America.

I myself try not to favour either side. I recognise that both sides have committed terrible atrocities. I don't want this thread to be another debate over which side is right.

http://www.inminds.co.uk/israeli_embassy_8.jpg

[i can't find any proof that righties support Israel. they don't protest as much]

In that case, the socialists are wrong, they were only oppressed by themselves. You know that the great Sheikh Yassin, saviour of the Palestinians, once sentenced to death four of his own people for fear they may have been collabarating with Israel? A real hero.

I can't see any ideological reason to favour Israel, other perhaps than the fact that they are supported by America.

This is why I'm not going to participate in this debate. Your mind is 100% made up, and I won't change it, nor will I waste time and breath trying.

Why is it that almost all left-wing and socialist people in the west are biased in favour of the Palestinians in the current conflict?

Why is it that almost all right-wing and capitalist people in the west are biased in favour of Israel in the current conflict?

The socialists say it's because they support oppressed peoples and underdogs. The righties are more of a mystery however. I can't see any ideological reason to favour Israel, other perhaps than the fact that they are supported by America.

Part of it is due to the belief that the Israelites are "God's chosen people." Christian fundamentalists in the US are rather adamant about this.

Another part of this issue is the fact that many people here see the Israelis as having risen from the horrors of the extermination camps and the heart-break of the diaspora to become the premier power in the Middle East. You can't help but admire that.

Additionally, many in the US don't see the Palestinians as being opressed, but rather as demented killers intent on destroying the entire nation of Israel and indeed the entire Jewish race.

This is why I'm not going to participate in this debate. Your mind is 100% made up, and I won't change it, nor will I waste time and breath trying.
How did you figure that my mind is "100% made up"? I tried to be reasonably non-partisan.

I dunno.. Bush is more pro-Palestinian than any president before him.. he was calling for Palestinian statehood since Day 1, before the 2000 debates. That goal didn't go anywhere with Arafat, but who knows now..

As for the anti-semitic parades you see on liberal college campuses like Berkeley (sp?) and such, I'd say that's just your standard contrarian attitude of people under 30 of either political faction. ;)

As for the anti-semitic parades you see on liberal college campuses like Berkeley
Pro-Palestinian marches are not anti-Semitic; indeed, many Jews participate in them.

Part of it is due to the belief that the Israelites are "God's chosen people." Christian fundamentalists in the US are rather adamant about this.

Another part of this issue is the fact that many people here see the Israelis as having risen from the horrors of the extermination camps and the heart-break of the diaspora to become the premier power in the Middle East. You can't help but admire that.

Additionally, many in the US don't see the Palestinians as being opressed, but rather as demented killers intent on destroying the entire nation of Israel and indeed the entire Jewish race.


Yes that is true many believe the bible that say that they are "Gods chosen people". Sounds to me like a people wrote a book to justify systematically wiping out any nation that disagrees with them. Or is it just the ones that God commands them to make extinct?

I think that war is wrong but I am very passively inclined. Both sides in my eyes are wrong.

Would both countries be in the wrong if Israel was not involved?

Pro-Palestinian marches are not anti-Semitic; indeed, many Jews participate in them.

Many are, which is why I mentioned it specifically. Some don't just cross the line, they erase it entirely.

Yes that is true many believe the bible that say that they are "Gods chosen people". Sounds to me like a people wrote a book to justify systematically wiping out any nation that disagrees with them. Or is it just the ones that God commands them to make extinct?

I think that war is wrong but I am very passively inclined. Both sides in my eyes are wrong.

That's a huge stretch to say that the Bible was ever written for the purpose of justifying military conquest. There is only one explicit incidence of divinely sanctioned Israeli military action in the Bible, and that was when they were settling in the "promised land", modern day Israel. God told them to kick some butt because the people in the region were roasting their babies over open coals to appease the god Molluch. I can't think of a better justification for extermination myself.

Many are, which is why I mentioned it specifically. Some don't just cross the line, they erase it entirely.
Well, I've never seen any of these "anti-semitic" marches, but then again I've never been to Berkeley.

But still you must be very naive if you think all Jews, or even all Zionists, support the actions of the IDF.

Well, depending on who you talk to, I seem like a right-wing socialist or a left-wing capitalist...so perhaps I'm qualified to talk about this subject with a reasonable degree of neutrality, or at the very least we can say I'm too confused to make up my mind ;).

As you stated, the left's support of the Palestinians seems rather clearly placed on idealogical terms.

This is interesting, because it often proves difficult to sustain the "support the underdogs" mentality when those underdogs lash so violently and with such horrible tactics. Terrorism as a political tool is a fascinating subject, but one we should not plunge into at this point; needless to say its hard to argue if the sensationalism that many of the militant Palestinian movements generate is worth the ill will that they get from pursuing such tactics.

This is to say that many on the left have reached a conclusion that the violence, however distasteful, may be justified in light of its possible political gains.

The right, on the other hand, support Israel for idealogical reasons as well. Just a sample of them reveals a common thread;

1) The promise to back Israel after WW2; many feel that our obligation to help the Jewish people attain a homeland as was promised before still remains.

2) Israel is a Western Democracy; this suggests that the government of Israel is truly representitive of the will of its people, while the mirad Palestinian factions are seen as either corrupt, extremist, or simply not-representitive.

3) Israel was and still is an ally; There is a certain tolerance for internal strife between allies. Just as the US watches silently while Russia struggles with the Chechyan problem, supports neutrality in the North Ireland difficulties, it tries to keep a distance from the Israeli problem with Palestine.

These three could all be discussed at length; there are strong claims for all points, just as there are strong claims for the Palestinians. It is not a simple topic by any stretch of the imagination! I cannot argue that the Israeli nor the Palistinian side has a greater cause, a better argument. All I can say is that there are strong arguments on both sides.

But still you must be very naive if you think all Jews, or even all Zionists, support the actions of the IDF.

Eh.. I don't remember saying that. The IDF and the right of Israel to exist are two different things entirely. IDF tactics and Hamas tactics are a bit tangential to the statehood debate. Both sides have committed acts that neither side would condone as a rule.

I can't see any ideological reason to favour Israel, other perhaps than the fact that they are supported by America.

I'm not American however I do support the Isreali's...

Because Palestine ain't wiping their own ass and stopping their suicide bombers from running into restaurants, kindergartens, bus stops, roadblocks and markets.

Why is it that almost all right-wing and capitalist people in the west are biased in favour of Israel in the current conflict?

The socialists say it's because they "support oppressed peoples and underdogs". The righties are more of a mystery however. I can't see any ideological reason to favour Israel, other perhaps than the fact that they are supported by America.
Christian Zionism. They believe that Jesus will rise again, in Jerusalem. He will destroy all Islamic places of worship, and rebuild the temple. There will then be the battle of Armaggedon, where millions of innocent "infidels" will be killed, and the Jews will all be converted to Christianity, "the only true religion".

They believe that if the Jews aren't in the Holy land and other conditions aren't fulfilled, Jesus won't return.

So effectively, the only reason why they want the Jews in Palestine is so that the prophecies of their religion come true, which is pretty much a form of Anti Semitism.

And they call us nutjobs. :rolleyes:
i can't find any proof that righties support Israel. they don't protest as much]
That's because they are in the position of power. The aren't going to protest against themselves are they?

I sympathize with Israel more because of a variety of reasons. There's the obvious religious one, but it's also because they are the only truely successful state in the Middle East (as of yet). However, that does not mean that I am not open to a two state solution. I just want one major concession by the Palestinians: the surrender of East Jerusalem.

Pepe, we have trouble understanding. How are protests against Israeli atrocities anti-Semitic? Many Jews, even in Israel, protest against the more brutal IDF tactics.

Christian Zionism. They believe that Jesus will rise again, in Jerusalem.
I am aware of the religious stuff, but most capitalists are not religious fundamentalists.

I will discount anything said by John Pilger. The guy makes me wanna puke. He's a racist scumbag, I saw a program of his on the BBC and he should be banned from having anything to do with Israel or the Jews.
John Pilger is a great journalist. He is not racist. If he was why would he have written those books exposing racism in Australia?

Pepe, we have trouble understanding. How are protests against Israeli atrocities anti-Semitic? Many Jews, even in Israel, protest against the more brutal IDF tactics.

Protests against Israeli policy aren't anti-semitic. If someone protests the IDF and "brutal" actions (which is a premise that I completely disagree with but can be seen as a legitimate point of view in a bizarre way) peacefully, then there's no problem. It would be just like protesting the the American Military in events such as Abu Ghraib. However, if someone protests and does things such as burning Israeli flags or putting swastikas on them, then it is anti-semitic. Taking it one step further, it is also anti-semitic to be against the right of Israel to exist.

Like I said in another thread, this whole situation is the fault of the surrounding Arab powers that wish to use the Palestinians as a hammer to beat Israel out of existence. Since they got their asses kicked so hard in the Six Days and Yom Kippur, their pleas for help should rightly fall on deaf ears everywhere.

Honestly, it's like a murderer crying because he killed his parents and now he's an orphan.

I am aware of the religious stuff, but most capitalists are not religious fundamentalists.
It's the unholy alliance. The religious bigots ally with the extreme right wingers. Neither half wants to piss off the other half, so they play along.

Christian Zionism. They believe that Jesus will rise again, in Jerusalem. He will destroy all Islamic places of worship, and rebuild the temple. There will then be the battle of Armaggedon, where millions of innocent "infidels" will be killed, and the Jews will all be converted to Christianity, "the only true religion".

They believe that if the Jews aren't in the Holy land and other conditions aren't fulfilled, Jesus won't return.

So effectively, the only reason why they want the Jews in Palestine is so that the prophecies of their religion come true, which is pretty much a form of Anti Semitism.

Infidels won't be killed only. There will be no battle of Armageddon till after the Devil returns. He will unite many coutries to follow him. People will think its Jesus. He will lead many people to him because of their willingness to be saved but with no intent to read scriptures and pray for answers. And than with a small whisper or voice will arise another man, the True Jesus. He will start a semi-war, but infidels will be on both sides.
Either way, in the end will come the (Second) Resuurection of the Dead. Jesus will show wounds, the jews will ask how he got those wounds, and Jesus will reply, "these are the wounds that I got Crucified with by the Pharises who have sworn that those deeds on upon you people."
Jesus will forgive them, but they must repent.

That's because they are in the position of power. The aren't going to protest against themselves are they?
Republicans can protest themselves. Pat Roverson recently protested some actions of Bush.

The State of Israel is a Western, liberal democracy. It is the ONLY democracy in a sea of hostile Islamic/Arab dictatorships and tyrannies.

What more reason would anyone need?

Well, I've never seen any of these "anti-semitic" marches, but then again I've never been to Berkeley.

But still you must be very naive if you think all Jews, or even all Zionists, support the actions of the IDF.
On the whole, the IDF is a profoundly moral and effective organization. It is far and away the most trusted institution, public or private, in the State of Israel.

Protests against Israeli policy aren't anti-semitic.
Not in and of itself, but anti-Israelism and anit-semitism frequently go hand-in-hand.

Part of it is due to the belief that the Israelites are "God's chosen people." Christian fundamentalists in the US are rather adamant about this.

Another part of this issue is the fact that many people here see the Israelis as having risen from the horrors of the extermination camps and the heart-break of the diaspora to become the premier power in the Middle East. You can't help but admire that.

Additionally, many in the US don't see the Palestinians as being opressed, but rather as demented killers intent on destroying the entire nation of Israel and indeed the entire Jewish race.
In Summary:

Christian fundamentalists see the Israelites as "God's chosen people".

Many in the US see the Palestinians "as demented killers intent on destroying the entire nation of Israel and indeed the entire Jewish race."

So it is okay for "God's chosen people" to kill Palestinians but it is not alright for Palestinians to kill "God's chosen people"?

In Summary:

Christian fundamentalists see the Israelites as "God's chosen people".

Many in the US see the Palestinians "as demented killers intent on destroying the entire nation of Israel and indeed the entire Jewish race."

So it is okay for "God's chosen people" to kill Palestinians but it is not alright for Palestinians to kill "God's chosen people"?
Palestinians murder civilians. IDF soldiers kill terrorists. THAT'S the difference.

Well, I've never seen any of these "anti-semitic" marches, but then again I've never been to Berkeley.

But still you must be very naive if you think all Jews, or even all Zionists, support the actions of the IDF.
You want anti-semetic, spend some time at SFSU.

The State of Israel is a Western, liberal democracy. It is the ONLY democracy in a sea of hostile Islamic/Arab dictatorships and tyrannies.
Ahem, Palestine is a (comparitively) liberal democracy. If only the Israeliites would actually give them what is their's. They take 9000 settlers out of the Gaza Strip, but try to claim land off the West Bank, by putting even more than the 300,000 they already have there.

The Palestinian Authority would probably govern their people competently, if they were given a chance.

Palestinians murder civilians. IDF soldiers kill terrorists. THAT'S the difference.
If you think that the vast majority of the IDF, and even more so, the Mossad's victims are actual terrorists, then you must be very naive. Innocent civillians are routinely arrested without charges, and killed, all on suspicion.

Ahem, Palestine is a (comparitively) liberal democracy.

"Palestine" isn't a country.

If only the Israeliites would actually give them what is their's.
They take 9000 settlers out of the Gaza Strip, but try to claim land off the West Bank, by putting even more than the 300,000 they already have there.

This isn't like the U.S. settling people in Northern Mexico. There is no nation state "Palestine," and hence no "Palestinian" territory in the same sense there is Israeli, or Canadian, or Icelandic territory.

The Palestinian Authority would probably govern their people competently, if they were given a chance.

Stop. You're making me laugh.


If you think that the vast majority of the IDF, and even more so, the Mossad's victims are actual terrorists, then you must be very naive. Innocent civillians are routinely arrested without charges, and killed, all on suspicion.
The Israeli policy on targeted killings is VERY clear and very strict. Only known, proven terrorist (leaders) are targeted, and ONLY when it is impractical to capture them alive.

The IDF and Mossad are incredibly competent agencies, and the IDF has incredibly strict rules of engagement. The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of those killed by the IDF are terrorists.

On the other hand, not only are the overwhelming majority of Israelis murdered by Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and their ilk civilians, these terrorists constantly, cosistently and deliberately target civilians.

"Palestine" isn't a country..
Palestine is a country, the Israeliites are occupying their land. That land has been Palestinian since the 7th century. A few two or three millenia old historical references are not a mandate to seize territory of a sovereign nation.

The UN in 1947 made a proposal for a two state solution, which was perfectly acceptable. However, in the end, a sort of apartheid has resulted, especially in the Palestinian territories. Jewish settlers live in lush settlements, protected by security forces, while Palestinians live in dilapidated apartment blocks, separated from the settlements with barb wire fences.

Nearly 5 Million Arabs live in just over 6,000 square km, while 6 million Jews live in 20,000 square km, all of which is historically Palestine.
There are 1.25 million people packed into just 360 square km of the Gaza Strip!

This isn't like the U.S. settling people in Northern Mexico. There is no nation state "Palestine," and hence no "Palestinian" territory in the same sense there is Israeli, or Canadian, or Icelandic territory.
Jewish settlements in the West Bank are violations of international law, and are clearly blatant attempts to claim land.

The Israeli policy on targeted killings is VERY clear and very strict. Only known, proven terrorist (leaders) are targeted, and ONLY when it is impractical to capture them alive.

The IDF and Mossad are incredibly competent agencies, and the IDF has incredibly strict rules of engagement. The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of those killed by the IDF are terrorists.

On the other hand, not only are the overwhelming majority of Israelis murdered by Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and their ilk civilians, these terrorists constantly, cosistently and deliberately target civilians.
Proven terroist leaders may be targeted, but it is innocent civillians that are getting killed. Again, these alleged terrorist leaders are killed in territory illegally occupied by Israel.

And just to make it clear, I do not condone any form of unprovoked violence. However, this is the case of a country fighting for its independance from a tyrannical foreign power. Were the people who fought for American (First country that popped into my head, not a brilliant example) independance terrorists?

Your views totally baffle me. I assume you support Israel just because the bible says so (Correct me if I'm wrong, it wasn't a hard assumption to make, given your name), and I can't comprehend how a work of fiction (Albeit a best selling one) can completely erase an entire people out of your warped world view.

PS. For the record, I am not Anti-Semitic. I'm a very tolerant person who believes in equality, which is why I think Israel is in the wrong here.
A binational, secular state is inherantly possible, but some people will always disagree.

Palestine is a country, the Israeliites are occupying their land. That land has been Palestinian since the 7th century. A few two or three millenia old historical references are not a mandate to seize territory of a sovereign nation.

The UN in 1947 made a proposal for a two state solution, which was perfectly acceptable. However, in the end, a sort of apartheid has resulted, especially in the Palestinian territories. Jewish settlers live in lush settlements, protected by security forces, while Palestinians live in dilapidated apartment blocks, separated from the settlements with barb wire fences.

Nearly 5 Million Arabs live in just over 6,000 square km, while 6 million Jews live in 20,000 square km, all of which is historically Palestine.
There are 1.25 million people packed into just 360 square km of the Gaza Strip!


Jewish settlements in the West Bank are violations of international law, and are clearly blatant attempts to claim land.


Proven terroist leaders may be targeted, but it is innocent civillians that are getting killed. Again, these alleged terrorist leaders are killed in territory illegally occupied by Israel.

And just to make it clear, I do not condone any form of unprovoked violence. However, this is the case of a country fighting for its independance from a tyrannical foreign power. Were the people who fought for American (First country that popped into my head, not a brilliant example) independance terrorists?

Your views totally baffle me. I assume you support Israel just because the bible says so (Correct me if I'm wrong, it wasn't a hard assumption to make, given your name), and I can't comprehend how a work of fiction (Albeit a best selling one) can completely erase an entire people out of your warped world view.

PS. For the record, I am not Anti-Semitic. I'm a very tolerant person who believes in equality, which is why I think Israel is in the wrong here.
A binational, secular state is inherantly possible, but some people will always disagree.

That pretty much sums up my view of it except I don't think the Westen powers in the UN had any real right to divide palestine into two countries in 47'. Nobody has the right to give away someone else's land.

A two state solution is the only possible solution in the near term, but a binational state may emerge if Jews keep colonizing the West Bank, and if the more heavily arab areas of Israel are not given over to the Palestinains in a land swap as the Palestinian pop. within Israel propper starts to catch up to the Jewish population. As it is now there is over 200,000 settlers in the West Bank, and 1.4 million arabs in Israel.

A binational, secular state is inherantly possible, but some people will always disagree.

But such a state would make Jews a minority in their country, and would essentially put an end to both the theory and practice of the state of Israel as the world's one Jewish state. I could see this being popular with the Palestinians, but it's too much to ask of the Israelis. Now what I want to know is...

I sympathize with Israel more because of a variety of reasons. There's the obvious religious one, but it's also because they are the only truely successful state in the Middle East (as of yet). However, that does not mean that I am not open to a two state solution. I just want one major concession by the Palestinians: the surrender of East Jerusalem.

Why?? The Israeli need to hang on to all of Jerusalem continues to baffle me. East Jerusalem is clearly, by all rights, Palestinian territory -- even today, decades into the occupation, this much is pretty clear. And that should be fine; it should be a pattern for the future, each side gets a piece. So why is Israel so adamant on this issue? I would think a more logical "major concession" would be to have the Palestinians give up on the "Right Of Return", an idea which would otherwise act as a trojan horse that would in the long run destroy the idea of two separate, ethnically-based states.

I'm pretty left. I don't support either side. Israeli's and Palestines had both been complete f***tards to each other and NEITHER deserves the land.
Hell, take the land from both side, declare it a refugee area where people displaced from conflict or disaster can stay for limited time. Preserve the holy sites by pasifists selected from thier respective religions for the service. Collect fees from tourism which is serve by employing the refugees...
I say, if you can't find a way to live in peace with your neighbors, why should any of you get to live there at all?
Oh- and God gave ya'll the land?? Sure- soon as God comes down and asserts this fact, I might believe it. Otherwise- get along, or get out.

Amen Lries and furballs. I find a supposed 'christian' brother such as battlestar christania with such views and close minded beliefs as disgusting. the great crusades of centuries past is long gone brother, israel is not reclaiming land back from 'heathens', they have invaded the sovergein nation of palastine. if a nation invaded your country, i m sure u would strike back too, especially to the ppls who have come from across the seas to settle on the lands of your ancestors.

there is a difference between civilians and invaders, and i m sure they are all the one and the same in the eyes of the palestinians. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. but dont mind me though, my personal beliefs is that the UN steps in with peacekeepers and smash both the israeli's and palestinians combat capabilities asunder. that way both sides cant kill each other anymore.

But such a state would make Jews a minority in their country, and would essentially put an end to both the theory and practice of the state of Israel as the world's one Jewish state. I could see this being popular with the Palestinians, but it's too much to ask of the Israelis. Now what I want to know is...
What I've been trying to say since the beginning of this thread is that it's not their country!
Jewsh culture and religion can still survive in western secular democracies, Holland being an excellent example. Even in a country like the US, which is dominated by paleo-conservative Christian bigots, Jewish culture still survives, and even thrives.

What I've been trying to say since the beginning of this thread is that it's not their country!
Jewsh culture and religion can still survive in western secular democracies, Holland being an excellent example. Even in a country like the US, which is dominated by paleo-conservative Christian bigots, Jewish culture still survives, and even thrives.

No realist could seriously believe that that part of the world will be anywhere near as safe for religious and cultural tolerance as the Netherlands or the United States anytime soon. Please, tell me you're not so credulous as that.

By the same token that noone has any right to any particular scrap of land based solely on ethnic identity, whether they're Jews or Arabs or anyone else, noone has a right to tell people who prefer to live under a particular government that they don't deserve that privilege and they have to move in with the people next door. Israel (not the Palestinian portions, I'm talking Tel Aviv, western Jerusalem, those kinds of places) is "their" country simply because "they" live there, and excercise power there, at this very moment. The idea of a binational state is basically that they should give this up; that they should dismantle the premises on which their state was built , and to satisfy... who? Israel has a right to exist solely because it exists. It has a right to exist as an ethnic enclave because it IS an ethnic enclave, and would be unlikely to survive in any other arrangement. The reason they've had such problems lately is that that wasn't good enough for them; in what was apparently a combination of arrogance and paranoia, they bit off more than they could chew.

Now, they certainly need to make a decision -- either ditch the Palestinian areas and let them set up an independent state, or create a truly unified Israel-Palestine. What I am saying is that the latter option is naturally deeply distasteful to them, and would additionally pose an opportunity for those amongst the Arabs who would like to eradicate Israel through means other than warfare.

In that part of the world, you're not going to get a nice, peaceful, tolerant multi-ethnic state. There, barriers and ethnicity-based immigration laws are going to be just as important as sovereignty and the rule of law in keeping things stable.

No realist could seriously believe that that part of the world will be anywhere near as safe for religious and cultural tolerance as the Netherlands or the United States anytime soon. Please, tell me you're not so credulous as that.You misunderstand me. What I was trying to say is that the Jews don't need their own country for their culture to survive, and even thrive.

By the same token that noone has any right to any particular scrap of land based solely on ethnic identity, whether they're Jews or Arabs or anyone else, noone has a right to tell people who prefer to live under a particular government that they don't deserve that privilege and they have to move in with the people next door. Israel (not the Palestinian portions, I'm talking Tel Aviv, western Jerusalem, those kinds of places) is "their" country simply because "they" live there, and excercise power there, at this very moment. The idea of a binational state is basically that they should give this up; that they should dismantle the premises on which their state was built , and to satisfy... who? Israel has a right to exist solely because it exists. It has a right to exist as an ethnic enclave because it IS an ethnic enclave, and would be unlikely to survive in any other arrangement. The reason they've had such problems lately is that that wasn't good enough for them; in what was apparently a combination of arrogance and paranoia, they bit off more than they could chew.

Now, they certainly need to make a decision -- either ditch the Palestinian areas and let them set up an independent state, or create a truly unified Israel-Palestine. What I am saying is that the latter option is naturally deeply distasteful to them, and would additionally pose an opportunity for those amongst the Arabs who would like to eradicate Israel through means other than warfare.
I sort of agree with you there, but even if they do decide to give up control of certain arab-dominated areas (Which is highly unlikely), who's going to decide which parts they give up? The right wingers will react violently, no matter how much they decide to give up.

Firstly, culturally the so called palestinians are the same as the Jordanians. Jordan, combined with every other arab country, will not accept palestinian refugees or their decendants for pretty much the express purpose of attempting to drive off Israel. Secondly, as to Jerusalem. The best thing to do with this city is to pretty much eject everyone and then turn it into a glass bowl.

You misunderstand me. What I was trying to say is that the Jews don't need their own country for their culture to survive, and even thrive.

Certainly this is true in the abstract, but it has nothing to do with Israel. Right now, several million Jews do have their own country, and its survival should not be based on some calculation of whether world Jewry can live without it.

I sort of agree with you there, but even if they do decide to give up control of certain arab-dominated areas (Which is highly unlikely), who's going to decide which parts they give up? The right wingers will react violently, no matter how much they decide to give up.

Ideally, they'd give up East Jerusalem and everything in the West Bank, including settlements, that wasn't at least contiguous with "mainland" Israel and could be enveloped by a defensible border without swallowing up too many Palestinian towns. Unfortunately, the pattern of settlements makes the latter difficult, at best, to accomplish. As for the former, it's hard to say. Things are definitely looking up right now, with Israel at least hinting at a willingness to negotiate on borders and withdrawal rather than doing everything unilaterally. It's a first step towards what will certainly be a flawed outcome that not everyone (least of all settlers) will be happy with. If it can avoid carving Palestine into indefensible bantustans, it will at least have done better than the last attempt. The trouble with the violent right-wingers is they ARE the settlement movement. They are the biggest threat to the two-state, separate ethnicity solution, but they're also blatantly racist and would never accept the bi-national state which would be the only reasonable, democratic option were their "vision" to be fulfilled. Now or later, they're going to have to be defeated; I'm just saying it's better for all involved to try now.

Palestine is a country, the Israeliites are occupying their land. That land has been Palestinian since the 7th century. A few two or three millenia old historical references are not a mandate to seize territory of a sovereign nation.


First of all, there is no such thing as a "Palestinian" in any meaningful sense. Do you know how the Arabs came into possession of Eretz Israel (the Land of Israel)? They kicked the Jews off it in the 7th century. Prior to the creation of the State of Israel, there was no sovereign nation in Eretz Israel. It was British protectorate.

The UN in 1947 made a proposal for a two state solution, which was perfectly acceptable. However, in the end, a sort of apartheid has resulted, especially in the Palestinian territories. Jewish settlers live in lush settlements, protected by security forces, while Palestinians live in dilapidated apartment blocks, separated from the settlements with barb wire fences.

The only reason Arab "Palestinians" live in such conditions is the other Arab leaders. During the Israeli War of Independance, Israelis encouraged Arabs to stay. Arab leaders told them to flee, promising Eretz Israel once the land had been cleansed of "infidels." Further, Arab states refused to accept "Palestinian" refugees. The Arabs made their choice, and now they must live with it.

Nearly 5 Million Arabs live in just over 6,000 square km, while 6 million Jews live in 20,000 square km, all of which is historically Palestine.
There are 1.25 million people packed into just 360 square km of the Gaza Strip!

There are 2.020 million Arabs in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and 1.226 million (3.246 million total for the math-impaired). 5.427 million Jews (and over one million Arabs) live in nearly 21,000 km2, almost all of which is desert.
ALL of which is historically Israelite.


Jewish settlements in the West Bank are violations of international law,

No, the yare not.


Proven terroist leaders may be targeted, but it is innocent civillians that are getting killed.

Civilians compose a small fraction of those killed by the IDF. They are far and away the preponderence of Arab terrorist victims.

Again, these alleged terrorist leaders

Proven terrorist leaders. The Israelis don't target anyone to whom the appelation "alleged" could be genuinely applied.

are killed in territory illegally occupied by Israel.

That is an egrarious falsehood.



And just to make it clear, I do not condone any form of unprovoked violence.

And yet you would condemn those who genuinely seek to end it.

However, this is the case of a country fighting for its independance from a tyrannical foreign power.

:rolleyes:

Were the people who fought for American (First country that popped into my head, not a brilliant example) independance terrorists?

George Washington and his compatriates did not murder British school children in cold blood and with calculated premediation!

Your views totally baffle me. I assume you support Israel just because the Bible says so (Correct me if I'm wrong, it wasn't a hard assumption to make, given your name), and I can't comprehend how a work of fiction (Albeit a best selling one) can completely erase an entire people out of your warped world view.

I will not rise to your childish insults and petty games. I made my reasons for supporting the State of Israel quite clear earlier. Do I have an affinity, as a Christian, for the Chosen People of God? Of course I do. I also have an obligation, as a Christian, to protect and defend His Chosen. I would give up my life, if it were necessary, to do so.

But I have an obligation, as a Christian, to protect all people, on every corner of this world, for they are all my brothers and sisters. Regardless, my [secular] reason for supporting the Israeli state are quite valid and quite clear.

PS. For the record, I am not Anti-Semitic. I'm a very tolerant person who

Could have fooled me.

believes in equality, which is why I think Israel is in the wrong here.
A binational, secular state is inherantly possible, but some people will always disagree.
And in this case, it is quite clearly the "Palestinian" Arabs who do not desire to live in harmony with Israel.

And despite the best efforts of you and your ilk, Israel will not - will NEVER - fall. Not on my watch.


Not while I'm breathing.

Sure- soon as God comes down and asserts this fact, I might believe it.
Don't worry -- He will. :)

Palestinians murder civilians. IDF soldiers kill terrorists. THAT'S the difference.
Although I am not fond of either sides part in this conflict, your statement is unequivocally FALSE!!

Although I am not fond of either sides part in this conflict, your statement is unequivocally FALSE!!
I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry that you're wrong.

That's a huge stretch to say that the Bible was ever written for the purpose of justifying military conquest. There is only one explicit incidence of divinely sanctioned Israeli military action in the Bible, and that was when they were settling in the "promised land", modern day Israel. God told them to kick some butt because the people in the region were roasting their babies over open coals to appease the god Molluch. I can't think of a better justification for extermination myself.


what is wrong with military conquest? :mp5:

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry that you're wrong.
Do you honestly believe that the Israelis are totally innocent?

UN Resolution 592:

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/f0c991e378d2773c852560de0070627a?OpenDocument

2. Strongly deplores the opening of fire by the Israeli army resulting in the death and the wounding of defenceless students;

This is not the only incident. It happens way too often.

First of all, there is no such thing as a "Palestinian" in any meaningful sense. Do you know how the Arabs came into possession of Eretz Israel (the Land of Israel)? They kicked the Jews off it in the 7th century. Prior to the creation of the State of Israel, there was no sovereign nation in Eretz Israel. It was British protectorate.

What happened in the 7th century, or even the mid-20th century, is hardly relevant to establishing the existence of Palestinians as a people, or their claim to nationhood. Lries' American Independence example was flawed for a number of reasons, but it was applicable in one way -- before independence, there was no nation called "America," and people like you would have used very similar arguments to claim that "there is no such thing as an 'American' in any meaningful sense."

And the notion, barely disguised here, that since they're all "just Arabs" they don't need their own state, is pretty disgusting; it's like saying that since Minnesotans are more or less indistinguishable from their neighbors and have never been independent, they shouldn't object to being invaded and forced out, for, after all, there's still Wisconsin.

The only reason Arab "Palestinians" live in such conditions is the other Arab leaders. During the Israeli War of Independance, Israelis encouraged Arabs to stay. Arab leaders told them to flee, promising Eretz Israel once the land had been cleansed of "infidels." Further, Arab states refused to accept "Palestinian" refugees. The Arabs made their choice, and now they must live with it.

Bluntly, what you're saying is that Arab leaders cheated and abandoned the Palestinians, and that somehow, 60 years later, they're still collectively guilty (??) for having been duped by false promises. This is 'blame the victim' mentality. Now how exactly does their victimization at the hands of Arab leaders justify their occupation by a foreign power decades later? How do two victimizations make a right?

There are 2.020 million Arabs in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and 1.226 million (3.246 million total for the math-impaired). 5.427 million Jews (and over one million Arabs) live in nearly 21,000 km2, almost all of which is desert. ALL of which is historically Israelite.

...and historically Phoenician, and historically Arab, and historically a whole hell of a lot of other ethnicities, too. This does not a claim make, especially if the claim is ancient while the circumstances are recent. And please, if you're going to argue for the "secular" validity of Israel's claim to all that land, don't mix it up with stuff like "historically Israelite", a plea which is meaningless to the non-religious.

Civilians compose a small fraction of those killed by the IDF. They are far and away the preponderence of Arab terrorist victims.

I'd like to see some statistics on that.


Proven terrorist leaders. The Israelis don't target anyone to whom the appelation "alleged" could be genuinely applied.

No, they just target their families and anyone who happens to be in the neighborhood at the time.

That is an egrarious falsehood.

Not to those of us whose news isn't filtered by WorldNetDaily.

But I have an obligation, as a Christian, to protect all people, on every corner of this world, for they are all my brothers and sisters. Regardless, my [secular] reason for supporting the Israeli state are quite valid and quite clear.

And condemning the Palestinians to either perpetual second-class status in their own lands (non-orwellian meaning of that phrase: "the land they have lived on for the past generation or two, at least, and in many cases more") or expulsion (as would befit your worldview) is your idea of being a good sibling?

And in this case, it is quite clearly the "Palestinian" Arabs who do not desire to live in harmony with Israel.

Think again; there are plenty on both sides who have no interest in peace, and plenty who do. The Palestinians probably have higher proportions of radicals, of course -- which stands to reason; if the West Bank and Gaza were occupying Tel Aviv, I suspect the proportions would be reversed. But there are also Israeli religious radicals, you remember, the ones who murdered their own prime minister rather than have "land for peace"? They're still there, and are no less a barrier to a solution than Hamas itself.

And despite the best efforts of you and your ilk, Israel will not - will NEVER - fall. Not on my watch. Not while I'm breathing.

Just a tad self-important, now, are we? Sorry, sweety, it's not up to you, or me, or anyone posting on a messageboard at 2 in the morning :rolleyes: .

Although I am not fond of either sides part in this conflict, your statement is unequivocally FALSE!!
Cause, you know, your perspective from Canadia is soo clear.

Cause, you know, your perspective from Canadia is soo clear.
Actually it is pretty clear. There have been numerous problems on both sides of this issue. Is it not clear to you?

Numerous problems, yes. But it's also clear that the IDF continually tries it's best to take out the terrorist leaders and the terrorists themselves. If they were really targeting civvies there would be a hell of a lot greater kill ratio then there is now, and if you don't believe that you are naive. Hamas and Fatah most certainly specifically target innocent civvies. Thus for the mkost part his statement was correct, albeit not as absolute as he made the situation seem.

I dunno.. Bush is more pro-Palestinian than any president before him.. LOL...that is funny

I think that it is a terrible situation, awful things are happening to human beings. To do nothing at all, to not even form an opinion, is difficult because when we know of things that are upsetting there is a tendancy to want to take some action, even if only the action of forming an opinion. Thus people feel a need to either condem one side, or support the other, or to do both. And really is a child going to school, the market, etc to blame? No and yet such people are on both sides of this dispute. Is a person who causes extreme harm to innocents without blame? No and such people are on both sides.

It seems to me that people feel compelled to choose a side to support or condem, and yet both sides are neither entirely blame worthy, nor entirely free of blame.

The majority of people on both sides, in my opinion, are people who want and need, like we all do. Those of us who dont live under such circumstances are fortunate.

I think it's reasonable to want to move freely, without checkpoints, without bombs going off, without soldiers everywhere, without wondering if you will make it back home from school, the market, playing in the street. I cant imagine sending my child to school living in such conditions, not sure if they'll return, or going to the market with my family knowing that it's not unpheasable that the day will include bombs or tanks, or travelling to work through barb wire fences manned by gun toting soldiers.

The constant uncertainty, for yourself, and for your loved ones, the constant mistrust, the day in day out pressure of living under such circumstances. How horribly horribly awful!

1. Judaism is ideological trash. Anyone who has read the Torah will find out that Yahweh has no moral integrity and is not worth worshipping at all. Judaism is deeply disjunctive and racist and it is designed to keep humans in subjection.
2. No claim for any land can be inferred from alleged divine instructions as expressed in Judaism.
3. No claim for any land can be inferred from alleged historic circumstances as expressed in beliefs stating that any independent Israelite political entity had ever existed in the Middle East.
4. All that counts is who actually lived in the land prior to the European Jews starting their influx into Palestine based on their idelogical stubborness and notion of superiority over Non-Jews as expressed in the ideas of Zionism.
5. The UN division plan and even thinking of dividing the land in the first place was highly unjust and only expressed the disregard of Arabs by the West, especially by the old colonial powers. The UN had no moral or other right to give away land they were supposed to protect to foreigners.
6. The world has already seen that Israelis are not trustworthy. They have proved to be the aggressors in the region more than once. And even today they still persue the complete ethnic cleansing of all territory between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. The Gaza disengagement plan is only a means to divert attention from further land grab in the West Bank and the further endorsment of Jewish settlement (mostly of politoreligious fundamentalists) there. And we have seen in the Rabin murder and in what Israeli prime ministers did since then that Israelis have never really had whatsoever intentions to view Palestinians as humans and to reach any form of peace with them.

1. Judaism is ideological trash. Anyone who has read the Torah will find out that Yahweh has no moral integrity and is not worth worshipping at all. Judaism is deeply disjunctive and racist and it is designed to keep humans in subjection.
Um, this describes almost every religion I know.Possibly not buddhism. Maybe.

Um, this describes almost every religion I know.Possibly not buddhism. Maybe.I agree. But other religious groups do not (for now) construct claims for land from their beliefs.

Thus for the mkost part his statement was correct, albeit not as absolute as he made the situation seem.
That is like declaring that a woman is half pregnant. His statement was false and I proved that.

Why is it that almost all left-wing and socialist people in the west are biased in favour of the Palestinians in the current conflict?

Why is it that almost all right-wing and capitalist people in the west are biased in favour of Israel in the current conflict?

The socialists say it's because they "support oppressed peoples and underdogs". The righties are more of a mystery however. I can't see any ideological reason to favour Israel, other perhaps than the fact that they are supported by America.

I myself try not to favour either side. I recognise that both sides have committed terrible atrocities. I don't want this thread to be another debate over which side is right.

http://www.inminds.co.uk/israeli_embassy_8.jpg

[i can't find any proof that righties support Israel. they don't protest as much]
Check out my sig. I'm a liberal. I also back Israel. I do so because the Palestinians target civilians more than Israelis do, and the Palestinians make up incidents like the "massacre" at Jenin to try to play us all for fools.

I'm not American however I do support the Isreali's...

Because Palestine ain't wiping their own ass and stopping their suicide bombers from running into restaurants, kindergartens, bus stops, roadblocks and markets.
What you say is true, but to be fair, the IDF don't do that much to stop their soldiers shooting little kids or running over old people either.

I think that as the stronger, more powerful, more united player (I do not accept Hamas as being on the same level of legitimacy as the IDF) they have more of a responsibility to end the violence.

Do you honestly believe that the Israelis are totally innocent?
Well, you're talking to a guy called "Battlestar Christiania" who probably believes in the apocalypse coming about if he supports Israel. I suggest that you save your arguments for people who live in the real world.

Cause, you know, your perspective from Canadia is soo clear.
How is it any less clear than your American perspective?

1. Judaism is ideological trash. Anyone who has read the Torah will find out that Yahweh has no moral integrity and is not worth worshipping at all. Judaism is deeply disjunctive and racist and it is designed to keep humans in subjection.
Judaism has nothing to do with this debate. Take your anti-religious ranting elsewhere please.

Here is something interesting for all of us on the Israel and Palenstine situation.


AKA -Aelixas Kazorotif "SP" AKA TARAZAN..

Was sentenced to 32 years in Prison by the US for racketeering, money laundering, attempted murder, selling of weapons..

AKA -Russian Sub .. and much more in weapons...

Was released by the US after serving only 3 years..

Moved to Israel

and is working for the CIA - Selling weapons to Palenstine while giving away key Palenstine locations, Guess who makes moeny of the sell of weapons?

The CIA..

Troy* :p

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry that you're wrong.
Damn. You're not just a prick. You're also an ignorant, narrow minded one.

A f-cking book does not justify a land claim! :headbang:

Damn. You're not just a prick. You're also an ignorant, narrow minded one.

A f-cking book does not justify a land claim! :headbang:
I think that Israel has a right to exist, because a lot of Jews live there and they are a democracy.

I think that Israel has a right to exist, because a lot of Jews live there and they are a democracy.
Israel does have the right to exist, I'm not some nutjob who supports Iranian foreign policy and advocates the total destruction of Israel, but Palestine has a right to exist as well, it is a democracy too.

Which is why I support a bi-national solution, with some sort of federation. Quebec is so different from the rest of Canada, and even though we have some problems, we get along most of the time. Even if they do decide to separate, as long as they get a fair share of the land, there is no reason why two states can't exist side by side.

Judaism has nothing to do with this debate. Take your anti-religious ranting elsewhere please.
Judaism has everything to do with this debate, because there is nothing else that defines Jews and that constituted the claim for a Jewish state in the first place. It was the European Jews as religious groups in their respective countries who stated the claim to a land they wanted cleansed of people they viewed as inferior based on their Zionist ideologies combined with the overall tendency in Europe towards nationalism and pride in (alleged) heritage at the time. After the atrocities of WW2 the creation of Israel is the second greatest injustice of the 20th century.

Well, depending on who you talk to, I seem like a right-wing socialist or a left-wing capitalist...so perhaps I'm qualified to talk about this subject with a reasonable degree of neutrality, or at the very least we can say I'm too confused to make up my mind ;).

You must be Bill O'Reilly. :D

Do It happens way too often.
If you're referring to the string of baseless UN resolutions against Israel, you are indeed correct.

Israel does have the right to exist, I'm not some nutjob who supports Iranian foreign policy and advocates the total destruction of Israel, but Palestine has a right to exist as well, it is a democracy too.

Palestine has a right to exist as soon as they can control groups like Hamas and their own Fatah. Until then, they deserve nothing.

Israel does have the right to exist, I'm not some nutjob who supports Iranian foreign policy and advocates the total destruction of Israel, but Palestine has a right to exist as well, it is a democracy too.

Not quite. Hopefully, it will be in a few years, though. It's dependant on a number of different factors, though.

Which is why I support a bi-national solution, with some sort of federation. Quebec is so different from the rest of Canada, and even though we have some problems, we get along most of the time. Even if they do decide to separate, as long as they get a fair share of the land, there is no reason why two states can't exist side by side.

Except if large populations of both states hate each other and want nothing to do with each other. Add guns and religio-nationalist fervor (both in steady supply), and you've got a second Balkans. Great plan.

It [the IDF] is far and away the most trusted institution, public or private, in the State of Israel.

Clearly, the IDF is not the most trusted institution in Israel, it is a military force, not a paragon of societal values. The Israeli Suplreme Court is by far and away the most honoured and trusted institution in Israel. The Army is an important and nessasary part of society, and has become part of the social fabric of the country's culture over the years, but a democratic civil society such as Israel's hardly holds it in any idealized light.

I've said this before, and I'll repeat it: As a Jew, Zionist, and an Israeli I find the blind and ignorant endorsement of Israel by fundamentalist Christians like Battlestar very disturbing. Though on the surface it seems that such vocal expressions would be welcome, I promise you that most of the Jewish community that you are so vigorously defending find your attention threatening and disturbing.
These people's political views are solely based on irrelevant and self-serving religious agendas (thinly veiled by frankly pathetic "secular" arguments -see Battlestar's other posts), and are so incredibly one sided and blind that they undermine the positions of genuinely balanced Zionist peaceniks.
Please, take your prosteletizing and elswhere, and get into heaven without referance to my country.

The way it seems to me is that the palestinians have no right to the land. They fought, with other arab allies, from the day of Israel's creation, and since they lost, they should pay the price. The price is whatever the Israelis choose to exact, and since that was minimal, the way I see it the arabs got of luckily, the fact that they're in trouble these days is largely due to the continued violence against Israel, both officially in wars against the other arab states, and unofficially in terrorist acts by a minority of the arab citizens. Either way, the Israelis have a right to defend their borders, and they seem to do it very effectively considering how much opposition they face. If the palestinians don't like this they should not have attacked in the first place, it's like a bully attacking someone, and then crying away when they lose.

And by the way, please stop using the word christian as a derogatory term! It's getting rather annoying. It's true that america has a fair share of christian nut-cases, but there are also many fundamentalists and even terrorists from many world religions. Atheists are not exempt either, some of the worst tyrants of the last century were atheist, Hitler and Stalin not excluded. Before you say that they're completely different, so I (as a christian) am completely different from the nuts in america, as are some good muslim friends of mine completely different from the suicide bombers that plague various sections of the western world. I'm not so petty as to get offended by it's use like that, but it is frustrating, and frankly quite hypocritical, since as often as not it comes from the mouths of self-professed liberal egalitarian 'nuts', who believe in equality, if that is so, apply it to all religions, not just the ones that didn't dominate the world until recently.

The way it seems to me is that the palestinians have no right to the land. They fought, with other arab allies, from the day of Israel's creation, and since they lost, they should pay the price. <clip>.

Palestinians have lived in the land that is now Israel proper, and in the west bank and Gaza for generations. If any large populations exist someplace, they have a right to exist there in peace and prosperity- its not hteir fault that their leaders made poor decisions in the past. The Arabs in Israel are citizens. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza have been victims of corruption and opression for long enough and their claim to the land they live in is srong. Why do you think they don't have a right for a free state on the land in Which they are the clear majority?

If you're referring to the string of baseless UN resolutions against Israel, you are indeed correct.
Baseless resolutions? So the UN goes around making resolutions just for the fun of it?

Stay tuned and I will get you some links to further support that you indeed are in denial as to the atrocities of the Israeli army.

Baseless resolutions? So the UN goes around making resolutions just for the fun of it?Well, it did when it voted for the division of Palestine. But it has learned since (except of course the US and Israel).

The way it seems to me is that the palestinians have no right to the land. They fought, with other arab allies, from the day of Israel's creation, and since they lost, they should pay the price..So, one who has the means to do something, automatically is right to do it. Then Hitler was also right in his efforts to destroy Europe and especially the Jews in it? Good argumentation of yours that is... :rolleyes:

There is a plethora of information that details atrocities on either side, but to support the claim that the IDF is indeed responsible for some of these atrocities (contrary to claims by Battlestar Christiania), here is a link:

http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/topic.php?tid=8#t405

Most are further linked to news sources.

Another consideration, is to look at the death toll over the past 4 years.

Death Toll Since Intifada tops 4,300, Say Rights Groups
Harvey Morris
Financial Times (UK)
September 27, 2004

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/new_web/intifada_death_toll_financial_times.htm

Ramallah - Up to 3,334 Palestinians and 1,017 Israelis have died in political violence since the Palestinian uprising broke out four years ago on Tuesday, according to human rights groups and official estimates.

Of the 3,334 Palestinians he said had been killed in the past four years, 621 were children of 17 or under. Israeli sources gave somewhat lower estimates of the overall Palestinian death toll.

The Israeli dead included 635 people, 110 of them children, killed in attacks that targeted civilians, according to Btselem, an Israeli human rights group.

Please keep in mind that I do not condone the actions of either group in their ongoing murderous activities.

Judaism has everything to do with this debate, because there is nothing else that defines Jews and that constituted the claim for a Jewish state in the first place.

It was the European Jews as religious groups in their respective countries who stated the claim to a land they wanted cleansed of people they viewed as inferior based on their Zionist ideologies combined with the overall tendency in Europe towards nationalism and pride in (alleged) heritage at the time.

After the atrocities of WW2 the creation of Israel is the second greatest injustice of the 20th century.
Faith in God and adhering to the Torah would be more defining of Jews to me than Middle East politics.

Yes, you are right in your descriptions of more extreme Zionist ideologies, which were really Jewish supremacist ideologies. Not all Zionists are like this however.

This is a ridiculous statement. How many people have been killed as a result of Israel? Worse than Japan, Stalin, Mao, Vietnam, etc? The 20th century is littered with injustice and genocide, and you pick Israel???

Palestine has a right to exist as soon as they can control groups like Hamas and their own Fatah. Until then, they deserve nothing.
Ah, an emotive argument that yields a paradox. In order to control Hamas they need to have a state; in order to have a state, according to you, they must control Hamas.

Palestinians have lived in the land that is now Israel proper, and in the west bank and Gaza for generations. If any large populations exist someplace, they have a right to exist there in peace and prosperity- its not hteir fault that their leaders made poor decisions in the past. The Arabs in Israel are citizens. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza have been victims of corruption and opression for long enough and their claim to the land they live in is srong. Why do you think they don't have a right for a free state on the land in Which they are the clear majority?
This guy is totally correct, and his status as an Israeli gives his argument extra credibility. Go away American Palestine-haters:

Palestine has a right to exist as soon as they can control groups like Hamas and their own Fatah. Until then, they deserve nothing.
Ah, an emotive argument that yields a paradox. In order to control Hamas they need to have a state; in order to have a state, according to you, they must control Hamas.

I bet that you will not respond to this.

This guy is totally correct, and his status as an Israeli gives his argument extra credibility. Go away American Palestine-haters:


Ah, an emotive argument that yields a paradox. In order to control Hamas they need to have a state; in order to have a state, according to you, they must control Hamas.

I bet that you will not respond to this.

I'm responding!
thanks, but I can't help but dissagree. I don't think we as outside observers realy know if the PA is capable of controlling Hamas. My guess is that the Israeli inteligence has a pretty good sense of the dynamics in the PA though. The problem is, there has never been a terribly trusworthy Palestinian govenment, and untill recently, no genuine effort has been made to control Hamas, and in fact, the Fatah and PA have funded and encouraged terrorism. How do we know if whatever "efforts" are underway aren't merely a bluf, or if this is the maximum that the Palestinian security forces are capable of? The PA's track record for fighting terrorism has been patently ludicrous.
The Palestinians definately don't require a state to control terrorism- all they need to do is clean up their governmant, consolidate their fractured and corruplted security forces, and cooperate with the Israeli army in security measures. Security is definately a PRE-requisite to meaningful peace. And its possible. Pragmatic cooperation in terms of security is a fairly low-level and practical step, given that there is goodwill between the two sides. Abbas's presidency has proved positive, and a level of trust will soon be gained, I believe.

Of the 3,334 Palestinians he said had been killed in the past four years, 621 were children of 17 or under.
Sure, now what's the breakdown on the age and gender of the children. Betcha the number drops sharply once it gets under around 14 or so and that the majority are males. They have sent children as suicide bombers. Thus one can extrapolate that there are those under 17 that are terrorists. If you are at a terrorist site the IDF ain't exactly gonna ask you your age unless you obviously aren't a terrorist.

Sure, now what's the breakdown on the age and gender of the children. Betcha the number drops sharply once it gets under around 14 or so and that the majority are males. They have sent children as suicide bombers. Thus one can extrapolate that there are those under 17 that are terrorists. If you are at a terrorist site the IDF ain't exactly gonna ask you your age unless you obviously aren't a terrorist.

Sadly the Palestinian society is a sick place. The education and treatment of children is horrifying beyond words. Children are indocrinated, trained, raised to hate, and used as sheilds for terrorists. We have all seen the shrines to "martyrs" that died murdering innocents, and the children decked out in militia geer and guns at summercamps (...often funded by the UN of EU). The IDF has is between scylla and charbydis when terrorists chose to use their children as human sheilds.

A much bigger challenge than immediate security is changing an entire society so entrenched in hate, to a civil society that can actively engage in democracy, trust their leaders, and have faith in a good future.

Sadly the Palestinian society is a sick place. The education and treatment of children is horrifying beyond words. Children are indocrinated, trained, raised to hate, and used as sheilds for terrorists.
Once again you say everything eloquently. Indeed, probably the quote in the news of the past 5 years that has made me saddest was the one from the Palestinian child whose greatest dream was to become a suicide bomber and "turn [his] body to shrapnel".

I'm responding!
thanks, but I can't help but dissagree. I don't think we as outside observers realy know if the PA is capable of controlling Hamas. My guess is that the Israeli inteligence has a pretty good sense of the dynamics in the PA though. The problem is, there has never been a terribly trusworthy Palestinian govenment, and untill recently, no genuine effort has been made to control Hamas, and in fact, the Fatah and PA have funded and encouraged terrorism. How do we know if whatever "efforts" are underway aren't merely a bluf, or if this is the maximum that the Palestinian security forces are capable of? The PA's track record for fighting terrorism has been patently ludicrous.
The Palestinians definately don't require a state to control terrorism- all they need to do is clean up their governmant, consolidate their fractured and corruplted security forces, and cooperate with the Israeli army in security measures. Security is definately a PRE-requisite to meaningful peace. And its possible. Pragmatic cooperation in terms of security is a fairly low-level and practical step, given that there is goodwill between the two sides. Abbas's presidency has proved positive, and a level of trust will soon be gained, I believe.
Yes, you're pretty much right here (the PA's record is not that great), but I believed a state to be necessary to have sufficiently strong military and police forces to crack down on terrorists. I'm not sure if they can do that with a mere "security force".

... but I believed a state to be necessary to have sufficiently strong military and police forces to crack down on terrorists. I'm not sure if they can do that with a mere "security force".

Do you honestly think any new Palestinian State will be allowed to raise a military? I think not. This isn't a parralel situation, but Germany and Japan were restricted in their military capabilities follwing their acts of agression, and so will the State of Palestine, when it comes into being. The fact is, Israel's military will be the only military around that region for a good while yet, and the Palestinians must be satisfied with taking control of their own law enforcement and security, which they have the tools to do.

Clearly, the IDF is not the most trusted institution in Israel, it is a military force, not a paragon of societal values. The Israeli Suplreme Court is by far and away the most honoured and trusted institution in Israel. The Army is an important and nessasary part of society, and has become part of the social fabric of the country's culture over the years, but a democratic civil society such as Israel's hardly holds it in any idealized light.

I've said this before, and I'll repeat it: As a Jew, Zionist, and an Israeli I find the blind and ignorant endorsement of Israel by fundamentalist Christians like Battlestar very disturbing. Though on the surface it seems that such vocal expressions would be welcome, I promise you that most of the Jewish community that you are so vigorously defending find your attention threatening and disturbing.
These people's political views are solely based on irrelevant and self-serving religious agendas (thinly veiled by frankly pathetic "secular" arguments -see Battlestar's other posts), and are so incredibly one sided and blind that they undermine the positions of genuinely balanced Zionist peaceniks.
Please, take your prosteletizing and elswhere, and get into heaven without referance to my country.
Thank you for your post. You certainly cast a far better light on this topic than those of closed mindness. Although there has been atrocities committed by both factions, I do believe that an enduring peace can be achieved.

As soon as the finger pointing stops, and a genuine mutual respect for the rights of both parties is achieved, the process can go forward. It will take some time for the wounds to heal, but they will heal

It will take some time for the wounds to heal, but they will heal
Amen to that, brother!