NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been reading up on Wicca and I've been wondering. Do Wiccans actually believe magic exists? If so, what evidence do they have for it?

This should be a fun thread *munchs on popcorn*

I've been reading up on Wicca and I've been wondering. Do Wiccans actually believe magic exists? If so, what evidence do they have for it?

Hard to be Wiccan if you don't practice the Craft. However, I think you're going to have to define "magic" ... there are several types.

This should be a fun thread *munchs on popcorn*

I'll join you :)

I've been reading up on Wicca and I've been wondering. Do Wiccans actually believe magic exists? If so, what evidence do they have for it?

Wicca? Ludicrous! :)

Wicca? Ludicrous! :)
Heh you fell for the trap dude- replace the word "magic" with the word "god" in Letila's first post in the thread and you then already know every argument thats gonna be rehashed in this thread ;)

Wicca? Ludicrous! :)

No more ludicrous then praying to a 2000 year old dead carpenter or whatever. It's a religion, complete with holy text and ceremonies. :)

Everything that I've seen from Wicca suggest that many members think of it somewhat half-seriously. One described it to me as, "knowing there is power out there, but not fully understanding it; wicca allows us a way or a lense to understand and explore that power more fully."

Seems very similar to things that Mystics say, even those who claim that "power crystals" work wonders and such. The same understanding exists that there is "power" or "existance" beyond human sensory perception. Most of Humanity thinks along such lines. Wicca is just one way of looking at that power and trying to understand it.

lol Wicca? Here, striaght from the internet what Wicca is:

What Is Wicca

Contrary to what those who choose to persecute or lie about us wish to believe, Wicca is a very peaceful, harmonious and balanced way of thinking and life which promotes oneness with the divine and all which exists.

Wicca is a deep appreciation and awe in watching the sunrise or sunset, the forest in the light of a glowing moon, a meadow enchanted by the first light of day. It is the morning dew on the petals of a beautiful flower, the gentle caress of a warm summer breeze upon your skin, or the warmth of the summer sun on your face. Wicca is the fall of colorful autumn leaves, and the softness of winter snow. It is light, and shadow and all that lies in between. It is the song of the birds and other creatures of the wild. It is being in the presence of Mother Earths nature and being humbled in reverence. When we are in the temple of the Lord and Lady, we are not prone to the arrogance of human technology as they touch our souls. To be a Witch is to be a healer, a teacher, a seeker, a giver, and a protector of all things. If this path is yours, may you walk it with honor, light and integrity.

Wicca is a belief system and way of life based upon the reconstruction of pre-Christian traditions originating in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. While much of the information of how our ancestors lived, worshiped and believed has been lost due to the efforts of the medieval church to wipe our existence from history, we try to reconstruct those beliefs to the best of our ability with the information that is available.

With recent archaeological discoveries, we now have basis to believe that the origins of our belief system can be traced even further back to the Paleolithic peoples who worshipped a Hunter God and a Fertility Goddess. With the discovery of these cave paintings which have been dated to be around 30,000 years old depicting a man with the head of a stag, and a pregnant woman standing in a circle with eleven other people, it can reasonably be assumed that Witchcraft is the oldest religion known in the world toady. These archetypes are clearly recognized by Wiccan as our view of the Goddess and God aspect of the supreme creative force and predate Christianity by roughly 28,000 years making it a mere toddler in the spectrum of time as we know it. Sorry guy's, carbon dating is a little hard to dispute no matter how bad you want to try...

Witchcraft in ancient history was known as "The Craft of the Wise" because those who followed the path were healers, were in tune with the forces of nature, had a knowledge of Herbs and medicines, gave council and were valuable parts of the village and community as Shamanic leaders. They understood that mankind is not superior to nature, the earth and its creatures but instead we are simply one of the many parts, both seen and unseen that combine to make the whole. As Chief Seattle said; "We do not own the earth, we are part of it." These wise people understood that what we take or use, we must return in kind to maintain balance and equilibrium. Clearly, modern man with all his applied learning and technology has forgotten this. Subsequently, we currently face ecological disaster and eventual extinction because of our hunger for power and a few pieces of gold.

For the past several hundred years, the image of the Witch has been mistakenly associated with evil, heathenism, and unrighteousness. In my humble opinion, these misconceptions have their origin in a couple of different places.

To begin, the medieval church of the 15th through 18th centuries created these myths to convert the followers of the old nature based religions to the churches way of thinking. By making the Witch into a diabolical character and turning the old religious deities into devils and demons, the missionaries were able to attach fear to these beliefs which aided in the conversion process. Secondly, as medical science began to surface, the men who were engaged in these initial studies had a very poor understanding of female physiology, especially in the area of a women's monthly cycles. The unknowns in this area played very well with the early churches agenda lending credence to the Witch Hunters claims and authority. The fledgling medical professions also stood to benefit greatly from this because it took the power of the women healers away giving it to the male physicians transferring the respect and power to them.

Unfortunately these misinformed fears and superstitions have carried forward through the centuries and remain to this day. This is why many who follow these nature oriented beliefs have adopted the name of Wicca over its true name of Witchcraft to escape the persecution, harassment and misinformation associated with the name of Witchcraft and Witch not to mention the bad publicity the press and Hollywood has given us simply to generate a profit.

What Witchcraft is:
Witchcraft is a spiritual system that fosters the free thought and will of the individual, encourages learning and an understanding of the earth and nature thereby affirming the divinity in all living things. Most importantly however, it teaches responsibility. We accept responsibility for our actions and deeds as clearly a result of the choices we make. We do not blame an exterior entity or being for our shortcomings, weaknesses or mistakes. If we mess up or do something that brings harm to another, we have no one but ourselves to blame and we must face the consequences resulting from those actions. No ifs, ands or buts and no whining...

We acknowledge the cycles of nature, the lunar phases and the seasons to celebrate our spirituality and to worship the divine. It is a belief system that allows the Witch to work with, not in supplication to deities with the intent of living in harmony and achieving balance with all things.

The spells that we do involve healing, love, harmony, wisdom and creativity. The potions that we stir might be a headache remedy, a cold tonic, or an herbal flea bath for our pets. We strive to gain knowledge of and use the natural remedies placed on this earth by the divine for our benefit instead of using synthetic drugs unless absolutely necessary.

Wiccan believe that the spirit of the One, Goddess and God exist in all things. In the trees, rain, flowers, the sea, in each other and all of natures creatures. This means that we must treat "all things" of the Earth as aspects of the divine. We attempt to honor and respect life in all its many manifestations both seen and unseen.

Wiccan learn from and revere the gift of nature from divine creation by celebrating the cycles of the sun, moon and seasons. We search within ourselves for the cycles that correspond to those of the natural world and try to live in harmony with the movement of this universal energy. Our teachers are the trees, rivers, lakes, meadows, mountains and animals as well as others who have walked this path before us. This belief creates a reverence and respect for the environment, and all life upon the Earth.

We also revere the spirits of the elements of Earth, Air, Fire and Water which combine to manifest all creation. From these four elements we obtain insight to the rhythms of nature and understand they are also the rhythms of our own lives.

Because Witches have been persecuted for so many centuries, we believe in religious freedom first! We do not look at our path as the only way to achieve spirituality, but as one path among many to the same end. We are not a missionary religion out to convert new members to think the same as we do. We are willing to share our experience and knowledge with those who seek our wisdom and perspective however. We believe that anyone who is meant for this path will find it through their own search as the Goddess speaks to each of us in her time and way. Wiccan practice tolerance and acceptance toward all other religions as long as those faiths do not persecute others or violate the tenant of "Harm None."

What Witchcraft is not:
More information about Witchcraft is available in the Frequently Asked Questions section, but in the interim, here are the main points.

* Witchcraft or Wicca is not a cult. We do not proclaim ourselves to be spokespersons for the divine or try to get others to follow us as their leaders.

* We do not worship Satan or consort with Demons. Satan is a Christian creation and they can keep him. We do not need a paranoid creation of supreme evil and eternal damnation to scare us into doing the right thing and helping others. We choose to do the right thing and love our brothers and sisters because it IS the right thing and it feels good to do it. I suppose it is a maturity thing.

* We do not sacrifice animals or humans because that would violate our basic tenant of "Harm None." Anyone who does and claims to be a Wiccan or a Witch is lying.

* We have no need to steal or control the life force of another to achieve mystical or supernatural powers. We draw our energy from within, our personal relationship with the divine and nature.

* We do not use the forces of nature or the universe to hex or cast spells on others. Again, "Harm None" is the whole of the law.

Witches have a very strict belief in the Law of Three which states that whatever we send out into our world shall return to us three fold either good or bane. With this in mind, a "True Witch" would hesitate in doing magick to harm or manipulate another because that boomerang we throw will eventually come back to us much larger and harder then when we threw it.

This is not to say that Witches are perfect, we are human too just like everyone else and make mistakes and errors in judgment. Just as there are parents who love and nurture their children, there are parents who abuse their children. As there are many who devote their lives to giving and helping mankind, likewise there are those who devote their lives to taking advantage of and using people for their own gain. Unfortunately the same flaws in human nature applies to witches too.

Most of us continually strive to consider all potential outcomes of our thoughts and actions pausing to seriously consider the consequences before undertaking a ritual, spell or rite that could go astray. It is when we follow the path with the love of the Goddess in our hearts and adhere to the basic tenant of the Reed that our works are beneficial and we achieve harmony and balance with all things.

The heart of Wicca is not something summed up into a few short words and can often take on different meaning to each since the Lord and Lady touch us in different ways. To gain a fuller understanding of the Craft, I urge you visit the other pages on this site as well as following the links to a select group of exceptional Wiccan and Witchcraft sites. Through the wisdom and words set down through the ages, you will find that you are able to understand the basis of our beliefs and how they may apply to you. Your inner voice will also quickly let you know if the intent of what you are reading is for superficial purposes to benefit self instead of working to benefit the whole. Remember to read with your heart, for it is when you see life and the world with your heart and spirit that you truly gain an understanding of what Wicca is.

Blessed Be!

Herne

Copyright © The Celtic Connection, wicca.com. All rights reserved
I got this of google from the URL http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/wicca.htm

Aaah Wiccans :P... poor deluded people. How can they believe in a religion the victorians made up and crowbarred into history to make it more glamerous.

Much of Wicca, from an outside point of view, seems to be a matter of upping your confidence in matters. But yes, for the most part, they believe in some sort of supernatural force, as well as deities in my experience.

What's nice though, they don't cram their beliefs down anyone's throat, and the more common system is pleasantly -peaceful-, rather than war-mongering and conquering. Some say -too- peaceful, heh.

I'm not Wiccan Emperor Fenix, if you were saying I was.

Wicca. It's somewhat less ridiculous than christianity, islam and those others, but it's still ridiculous.

Wicca is pagan...I admire the construction of all forms of religion including Wiccan, but do not believe in them. I wouldn't call them ridiculous.

Magick, just had to fix that...

I'm not Wiccan Emperor Fenix, if you were saying I was.
No, when i started writing my post, yours wasnt there.

Wicca is pagan...I admire the construction of all forms of religion including Wiccan, but do not believe in them. I wouldn't call them ridiculous.

OK, they're ludicrous, too. Wizards in the sky and witches and ritualistic cannibalism... :rolleyes:

Wicca, is a very peaceful religion. My girlfriend practices, and what I understand from her talking to me about it is that they beleive in some higher power, or powers(dietys). And they beleive in living good, moral lives, and that there is some better place to go after death. This is a consistency with most, if not all, major religions in the world. In my opinion, religions are all, in essence, the same thing, because for the most part people seem to want the same thing. All religions have some sort of "higher power" and beleive that the soul goes somewhere after death....now as far as the magic thing goes they do beleive in it, they beleive that everything in nature is alive, and that they're all connected by these energies....myself I don't beleive a thing of it.

I'm actually readin a book about Wicca, Witch Crafting: A Spiritual Guide to Making Magic by Phyllis Curott, and I am partially convinced by it. I know first-hand the psychological benefits of some of their practices, akin to Buddhism, but better in my opinion. However, though some of what they propose might be veracious from a scientific point of view, most just seems fanciful. However, I much prefer all neo-paganism to desert monotheism and Hinduism any day.

:D ie: They believe in the Force(star wars) :D

Do they actually believe in spells and such? Because that would be provable or disprovable. Wow, a religion whose validity could be argued with facts!

Hiya boys and girls. Heh heh, figured I'd toss in my two cents seeing as I'm pagan (not technically wiccan, but similar). It's like the idea of being protestant as opposed to simply saying your christian. I don't follow the exact teachings of wicca, but follow a more modified general form.

Okay...just to reiterate, usually two main deities--male and female. In my view, however, they are both manifestations of the same central being...both so closely connected to nature and the universe that essentially they are within it. It's like a spiritual undertone...a vibe through all things.

Now...the iffy part: magick. Believe it or not, there are some pagans who practice their spirituality without any "magick". I don't care for the word myself. I call it ritual work. It's essentially something similar to a christian communion or similar such ceremony. When you break it all the way down, its a glorified prayer; it's a request to the higher powers. It does mean recognizing a level of personal energy, energies which are supposed to (according to my belief) surround each and every person. It's a matter of manipulating this energy and asking those energies around us for assistance. It can also be careful meditation and such (often somewhat similar to budhist meditations as mentioned before). That's just my take on everything. But, as I said, I don't like the word magick for its connotations.

Wicca is a fad that many people go through as children in high school and to a lesser extent young adults in college.

In this way it is much like "anarchism," as it is rare indeed in reasonable adults.

Magic is forceing a God to do your will, which is why God told Moses: "I am Who I am, Yahweh" Yahweh is not gaods real name, but describes him, which is why you are unable to control him.

I hate the Wiccan with every fiber of my being! I am a Christian zealot and I WILL start a jihad(holy war) with the Wiccan! I will gather an army of Christians and others(depending on how much they hate the Wiccan) I see them where crosses(and anhks) and that angers me, I will cut down every tree in a forest and cruify them ALL! Then will they see the pain that our lord hath suffered when he was on the cross! Christians where the cross for a purpose, Wiccans only where it for deceration. I will start an inquisition and convert as many as I can! I will burn there temples pull down there monuments and burn them at the stake! I will kill them all! Men, women and childern! I will slaughter them like the animals they are!

Laritia? You are not a Christian.

Wicca is a fad that many people go through as children in high school and to a lesser extent young adults in college.

In this way it is much like "anarchism," as it is rare indeed in reasonable adults.

Actually, the number of pagans throughout the world is said to be growing. It seems like many adults are becoming more and more open to it. I personally know over a dozen adult pagans in various age groups, up to their 60s. The most well-known and respected among the religion are relatively old.

Magick, just had to fix that...
No, not really. It is ultimately derived from the Old Persian magush, a member of the clerical class. It came to English from the Old French magique, from the Lating magice, from the Greek magikê, feminine of magikos, from magos. Nowhere in there do I see any sign of -ck.

Magic is forceing a God to do your will, which is why God told Moses: "I am Who I am, Yahweh" Yahweh is not gaods real name, but describes him, which is why you are unable to control him.

because of course, you need to know the 'real name' of something to control it.


science proved it.

No, not really. It is ultimately derived from the Old Persian magush, a member of the clerical class. It came to English from the Old French magique, from the Lating magice, from the Greek magikê, feminine of magikos, from magos. Nowhere in there do I see any sign of -ck.


Lets check the OED on that one.

Will post the results after I look it up.

How did science prove it?

Actually, the number of pagans throughout the world is said to be growing.
There are roughly 1 million neo-Pagans in the world, the 18th largest religion. Though, in actuality, it is a grouping of different religions.

Lets check the OED on that one.

Will post the results after I look it up.
You get the OED?! Lucky son of a...

Thanks Gnostikos!

What's OED?

This link would prolly be helpful for a bit more understanding of Wicca as well as some figures on who follows it:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_nbr2.htm

[ad. OF. magique, ad. late L. magica (Pliny has magice = Gr. μαγική sc. τέχνη–, subst. use (by ellipsis of ars art) of the fem. of magicus magic a.
In the mod. Rom. langs. the place of the word is taken by the cognate F. magie


No mention of persian by in the etymology provided by the Oxford English Dictionary.

Which said, I do not discount the possiblity that there is a greek/latin/old persian cognate, as they are all indoeuropean languages.

I would however check old hindi to see if the root is indeed I-E, if it is not, then it is unclear whether the word originated in greek or persian.

Please let me Know what you find!! I'm quite interested

Wicca? Ludicrous! :)

I hope you never get mad at anyone for calling Christianity or any other religion ludicrous then, Eutrusca. Same difference.

This is kinda nifty too:

"The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months. 4,5 Wiccans in Australia have a very similar growth pattern, from fewer than 2,000 in 1996 to 9,000 in 2001. 10 In Canada, Wiccans and other Neopagans showed the greatest percentage growth of any faith group. They totaled 21,080 members in 1991, an increase of 281% when compared with 1990."

Sorry...lol...clicking link after link and finding nifty stuffs.

Very nifty. Wiccans and Pagans, in my experience, are rather pleasant people. Though I did run in to a neo-druid who tried pulling the JC-style "We were the first!" BS. Meh.

Yeah, its one of the reasons I converted from a congregationalist to a pagan...less pushy with other people...although admittedly some are a bit peevish at times;).

Aaah Wiccans :P... poor deluded people. How can they believe in a religion the victorians made up and crowbarred into history to make it more glamerous.

Victorians? In the 1950's?

What?

Do they actually believe in spells and such? Because that would be provable or disprovable. Wow, a religion whose validity could be argued with facts!

A sticky area. Psychology plays a big part. If a wiccan decides to do a spell to improve their chances of getting a job, then either the universe will deign to give them the job they want, or they'll believe that's what happened and be a lot more confident at the outset as a result. Positive results are more likely to be remembered than negative ones - when a dice player blows on the dice for luck before rolling, it doesn't make him win, but his results are good enough by chance for him to think it makes some kind of difference. Not only that, but as Bergist says, not all of them even bother with the magic stuff. Essentially it's just an ordinary religion except with more trees.

I find the belief in spellcraft no more ridiculous than a belief that prayer has effect. If you believe enough it can have an effect. The same thing with faith-healing and voodoo. And Wiccans have a life philosophy that seems a lot more tolerant than others. Hence I find them less obnoxious than pholosophies that insist everyone who disagrees will be punished in some way.

I hate the Wiccan with every fiber of my being! I am a Christian zealot and I WILL start a jihad(holy war) with the Wiccan! I will gather an army of Christians and others(depending on how much they hate the Wiccan) I see them where crosses(and anhks) and that angers me, I will cut down every tree in a forest and cruify them ALL! Then will they see the pain that our lord hath suffered when he was on the cross! Christians where the cross for a purpose, Wiccans only where it for deceration. I will start an inquisition and convert as many as I can! I will burn there temples pull down there monuments and burn them at the stake! I will kill them all! Men, women and childern! I will slaughter them like the animals they are!

...... You are stupid :|

Yhea sure Christians were the 1st ones to wear crosses.

How would you like a moose with that cheese?.

[ad. OF. magique, ad. late L. magica (Pliny has magice = Gr. μαγική sc. τέχνη–, subst. use (by ellipsis of ars art) of the fem. of magicus magic a.
In the mod. Rom. langs. the place of the word is taken by the cognate F. magie
Eh, OED should use the less romanised transliteration of κ, (kappa) k, not c. And they do not include the circumflex (^) or macron (-) over the e to denote that it is η (eta), not ε (epsilon).

No mention of persian by in the etymology provided by the Oxford English Dictionary.
Well, my source is the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com/), and I double-check on Merriam-Webster Online (http://www.m-w.com/) for Greek derivations, because they denote the differences between eta and epsilon. Here (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=magic) is the thing on the Etymology Dictionary, which means that the Greeks probably got it from the Persians. But, yes, it is certainly from Indo-European roots, regardless.

I don't really support religion....Wicca is no exception.


Haha, I agree with Rovhaugane, Laritia is stupid. Go on, start a Jihad, pal.

I find the belief in spellcraft no more ridiculous than a belief that prayer has effect. If you believe enough it can have an effect. The same thing with faith-healing and voodoo. And Wiccans have a life philosophy that seems a lot more tolerant than others. Hence I find them less obnoxious than pholosophies that insist everyone who disagrees will be punished in some way.

This is exactly correct. When it comes to a belief system, proof goes out of the window - you can't prove that magic exists any more than you can prove that god exists or that reincarnation is a solid reality. It's completely subjective.

As to the second point, while Wiccans are generally more tolerant of other religions, they're very prone to hysteria over Christians and feeling victimised. This really only applies to novices though, people who've been at it for a while tend to grow out of it and stop going on about that "never again the burning times" schtick.

Being Wiccan, I rather dispute that we are ridiculous, unsane, or ludicrous, or "crowbarred" into history by the Victorians. I don't dismiss others religion, so I'd really appreciate it if it wasn't done to mine.

Perhaps this is one of the problems with Wiccan- we don't preach our religion in massive churches and temples - people who want to know, to learn, generally have to find us.

And that leaves us open to demonization ( which the Catholic church has made many attempts at )

The information that Heiligkeit provided in his first post is correct about the general bais of Wicca.

But it has been said that there are as many types of Wiccan as there are Wiccans, and trying to provide 'direction' is like trying to herd cats...

Being Wiccan, I rather dispute that we are ... "crowbarred" into history by the Victorians...


I'm not a wiccan, but I dispute that one because it's absolute nonsense. Wasn't it still illegal to do that sort of thing in Victorian times? The witchcraft act was only repealed in the UK less than a hundred years ago.

because of course, you need to know the 'real name' of something to control it.


science proved it.

Please share this proof with us then, Im sure most people here are intrested would like to know.


Thanks for the support Nog Yggstik the Yggs =p

Here is a little intresting article on Wiccans lol
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0702/wiccans.html

A sticky area. Psychology plays a big part. If a wiccan decides to do a spell to improve their chances of getting a job, then either the universe will deign to give them the job they want, or they'll believe that's what happened and be a lot more confident at the outset as a result. Positive results are more likely to be remembered than negative ones - when a dice player blows on the dice for luck before rolling, it doesn't make him win, but his results are good enough by chance for him to think it makes some kind of difference. Not only that, but as Bergist says, not all of them even bother with the magic stuff. Essentially it's just an ordinary religion except with more trees.
Ah, well I was referring to whether Wicca believe in the traditional definition of spells. For example "I cast spell, therefore you will grow warts". I guess I was wrong, as it seems that its just like prayer, with more goats. Do they still do goat sacrifices? If so, I need to meet some Wiccans...

Please share this proof with us then, Im sure most people here are intrested would like to know.


This is an interesting one. In general occult terms (we're probably talking 'black' magic here, ooh, scary), if you know the true name of an entity you can control it. It stems from Solomonic systems, AFAIK, where you'd raise a demon and get it to do stuff for you. If you didn't know it's true name, it wouldn't be bound to you. Very ceremonial stuff.

I'd love to see a scientist trying to prove it, to be honest.

Yes well New Granada said science has proved it but provided no proof.

Ah, well I was referring to whether Wicca believe in the traditional definition of spells. For example "I cast spell, therefore you will grow warts". I guess I was wrong, as it seems that its just like prayer, with more goats. Do they still do goat sacrifices? If so, I need to meet some Wiccans...

Heh! There are so-called "glamour spells" where you can change your eye colour, allegedly. They're generally talked about by teenagers, but I don't think any serious Wiccans or witches think they're valid in the real world. Because Wicca is a western construct, psychology plays a bigger part in it - in indigenous practices you're more likely to get the "I curse you, your cattle die!" beliefs. Here, it tends to be a bit more subtle (subversive, perhaps? Oo-er). But yes, generally Wiccan spells are more like prayers. It's not uncommon to ask a patron deity for their blessing of their intent while doing a working - they'll basically just focus on the outcome they want to happen and add other corresponding mojos.

Wiccans traditionally don't do ritual sacrifices of living things, it tends to be frowned upon. Every so often you'll get one with a leaning towards the darker side of stuff, but they move away from Wicca pretty sharpish. Should you wish to hang out with the goat sacrificers, you'd be better off looking for people who just call themselves "occultists", as they're less likely to want to hug trees and more likely to want to shag each other inside stone circles.

Yes well New Granada said science has proved it but provided no proof.

Yeah, I saw. Hopefully he was addressing more than one thing in that post, because together it doesn't make any sense. Although I really would like to see a scientist trying to conjure a demon to see if the true name really worked or not. Hell, I'd get it on Pay-Per-View. ;)

I dont think he was talking about conjuring a demon. Have another look at the post, it says nothing about demons.

*waits for neo to post something*

I dont think he was talking about conjuring a demon. Have another look at the post, it says nothing about demons.

He does mention the true name of Yahweh though, which connects in a broad sense to ceremonial control of entities. It doesn't matter whether your entity is a god or a demon, the premise of the true name is the same thing.

Actually, on re-reading, granada never said any such thing. He was replying to a poster who was, and his "science proved it" comment was facetious. Well, that's cleared that up!

I guess maybe I should have reread it =p

ohh well I still want the scientific proof.

As I posted earlier - there are many 'types' of Wiccans- there are those who believe that for there to be balance there has to be harm as well as weal, that one must be able to curse as well as help.

And one must discuss what is meant by majic. Catholics have miracles - by another name...majic. Prayers are a form of spell, are they not? And who says we do not influence the world with our harnessed will?

It's Dungeons & Dragons for the spiritually creative.

As I posted earlier - there are many 'types' of Wiccans- there are those who believe that for there to be balance there has to be harm as well as weal, that one must be able to curse as well as help.

And one must discuss what is meant by majic. Catholics have miracles - by another name...majic. Prayers are a form of spell, are they not? And who says we do not influence the world with our harnessed will?

True. There's an assumption for people who don't know much about pagans or occultists to assume that by "magic" you mean flinging fireballs or doing Harry Potter style disarmament tricks. The reality, of course, is rather dull in comparison. As 'magic' in the pagan sense is connected to direction of will and intent, it's not really as impressive as the special effects in Buffy and so on.

OTOH, if you collect a bunch of people together and get them wound up about a single issue, you're producing much the same effect as you would in a witches circle with multiple members - political rallies are a good example. Take one charismatic speaker, a whole load of people who agree with him/her, have a rousing speech and voila; your group is supercharged and buzzing. Not much different to a pagan circle.

The difficulty lies in the fact that a full explanation of the effect is tedious, so it's easier to call it magic and have done with it. But if you've never understood the social/psychological background of it, you're unlikely to give it any credence.

<snip> I will gather an army of Christians and others(depending on how much they hate the Wiccan) I see them where crosses(and anhks) and that angers me, I will cut down every tree in a forest and cruify them ALL!
<snip>
I will kill them all! Men, women and childern! I will slaughter them like the animals they are!
Larita, threatening death to entire populations doesn't sit well here. Some might recognize the trollish nature, others might actually take you seriously. Consider yourself Warned.
...... You are stupid :|
Rovhaugane, don't feed the trolls, especially with flames of your own.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Moderating Team

dude they used to burn people alive for that! Apparently, at some point, people were quite convinced there was something to it! Either those people were just delusional from too much of their own religion, or what I think is a lot of witchcraft stuff uses subtle sociological cues to influence people in different ways, and in those old days man their society was so strictly encoded and people were so conservative, that if someone started practicing witchcraft it probably totally screwed with the minds of the townsfolk. If on the other hand you are living somewhere where there's a lot of people acting in different ways people get used to different people and nothing bothers them so much, and maybe then witchcraft doesn't have as much influence either. I would expect that depending on where you live, and how old you are, it could come up again during our lifetimes that you will be persecuted for practicing witchcraft. I mean, so many things which like 10 years ago I though were pretty much regarded as mainstream are now less and less tolerated in the public sphere. And witchcraft has historically been one of those things that people get mad about. Just that oh since the 70's or so people put less and less stock in the reality of God and of supernatural powers and so anyone who was in a position to persecute someone over it was just as likely to blow it off as sheer stupidity. Now and I hope this is wrong it seems like religion is given a lot more credit, and we have some intensely devout leaders, and more and more of what was within the private morality 10 years ago, is pulled out for public analysis.. Well you can be sure that witchcraft falls under the category of damnable behavior, once you get technical... and that's where we're heading--getting technical with our morality! Again depending on where you live, I keep seeing "our" and "we" and probably there are places where, e.g. in Asia, witchcraft is already not at all tolerated, and places like metro France (+90% atheist) where they could give a fuck less if you spend all day casting spells at them. As for me I'm in the US which means we're crazy enough that anything could happen, and anything's happening right now!

<snip>
several points:
use paragraphs
dont use stupid fonts
dont use funny colours

Sorry, I couldnt help myself :(

I hate the Wiccan with every fiber of my being! I am a Christian zealot and I WILL start a jihad(holy war) with the Wiccan! I will gather an army of Christians and others(depending on how much they hate the Wiccan) I see them where crosses(and anhks) and that angers me, I will cut down every tree in a forest and cruify them ALL! Then will they see the pain that our lord hath suffered when he was on the cross! Christians where the cross for a purpose, Wiccans only where it for deceration. I will start an inquisition and convert as many as I can! I will burn there temples pull down there monuments and burn them at the stake! I will kill them all! Men, women and childern! I will slaughter them like the animals they are!
As a christian, I believe people should come to christianity voluntarily.
I seriously doubt you could find any christians who would join your crusading army, as that is what you are calling for, a crusade. The last one was stalemate between us and the muslims with the jews caught in between.
Even professed christians wear the cross only for decoration. Everyone does it. Big deal. If you was really concerned about the reputation and honor of our lord, you would be more focused on getting to heaven than on trying to kill nonchristians who refuse to convert.
You claim you follow Christ then you should be aware of his commands such as:
"Those who live by the sword will die by the sword".
"My kingdom is not of this world."

As a christian, I believe people should come to christianity voluntarily.
I seriously doubt you could find any christians who would join your crusading army, as that is what you are calling for, a crusade. The last one was stalemate between us and the muslims with the jews caught in between.
Even professed christians wear the cross only for decoration. Everyone does it. Big deal. If you was really concerned about the reputation and honor of our lord, you would be more focused on getting to heaven than on trying to kill nonchristians who refuse to convert.
You claim you follow Christ then you should be aware of his commands such as:
"Those who live by the sword will die by the sword".
"My kingdom is not of this world."
*claps*
Im sure he will take it more seriously especially because it is coming for a christian =)

As I posted earlier - there are many 'types' of Wiccans- there are those who believe that for there to be balance there has to be harm as well as weal, that one must be able to curse as well as help.

And one must discuss what is meant by majic. Catholics have miracles - by another name...majic. Prayers are a form of spell, are they not? And who says we do not influence the world with our harnessed will?

Science, logic... sanity in general, you dig?

Science, logic... sanity in general, you dig?

Fallacial argument. See psychology and strength of belief. It's not unheard of for people to die of voodoo curses should they be part of a culture that accepts vodoun as a literal reality - the reason behind is strength of belief.

Also, if you really want that parking space, the other driver who's about to take it may see the mad glint in your eyes and decide against it. Result? Universe - 0, strength of will - 1. It can be explained by science and psychology.

Fallacial argument. See psychology and strength of belief. It's not unheard of for people to die of voodoo curses should they be part of a culture that accepts vodoun as a literal reality - the reason behind is strength of belief.

Also, if you really want that parking space, the other driver who's about to take it may see the mad glint in your eyes and decide against it. Result? Universe - 0, strength of will - 1. It can be explained by science and psychology.

I thought you were implying that Wicca had some sort of supernatural effect. It may have a psycological effect.

But in that case, what's the point of it?

Eh, OED should use the less romanised transliteration of κ, (kappa) k, not c. And they do not include the circumflex (^) or macron (-) over the e to denote that it is η (eta), not ε (epsilon).


Well, my source is the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com/), and I double-check on Merriam-Webster Online (http://www.m-w.com/) for Greek derivations, because they denote the differences between eta and epsilon. Here (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=magic) is the thing on the Etymology Dictionary, which means that the Greeks probably got it from the Persians. But, yes, it is certainly from Indo-European roots, regardless.


Actually the macron was there, but when I copy/pasted it did not come across (copy/paste from the OED does not always work, in fact I had to retype the greek in word and then copy/paste), so I replaced it with an 'e' and provided the greek alongside.

If you want evidence for this, I will gladly post a screen capture showing the entry in the OED itself.

See, that is the question for every religion...What IS the point of religion? We have absolutedly no proof that a God or Gods exist.

Blind Faith? I cannot live blindly. I see no reason why I should waste my life hearing, what kind of a sinner I am, and that in repentence I have to give the Church my money. Some other religions are very nice however...Buddhism, finding Zen with yourself, is all good, but then the not wanting things? It i impossible not to want.

What I'm trying to say is, worshiping without proof, is simply not correct. If God came to me and told me a story or something, I'd believe in him, but he doesn't. I simply cannot worship blindly, and do not understand how some of you can.

If you want evidence for this, I will gladly post a screen capture showing the entry in the OED itself.
No, I trust you.

If God came to me and told me a story or something, I'd believe in him, but he doesn't.
That would probably be an audiovisual hallucination, however.

I think I am sane enough not to have hallucinations...

But yes, it could be, and I hope it would.

I'll join you :)
I actually went and got some kettle corn when i read that.

I think I am sane enough not to have hallucinations...
Keep on wishing. Pretty much anyone is capable of that. Especially since the ability to question sanity is typically considered a sign of it.

Very funny...I was trying to make a point, not start talking if I'm sane or not.

Very funny...I was trying to make a point, not start talking if I'm sane or not.
Oh, no, I didn't mean that in reference to anyone in particular. It's just that I've actually been reading up on hallucinations, delusions, and schizophrenia recently, and it fit perfectly with that.

But I don't worship blindly. We are not seperate from the Divine, as many religions would have it - lesser beings unworthy - but a part of all that is, all is sacred, and all is profane, united in one. The Divine, the Goddess, the God ( if you will ) is a part of us all, as we are a part of Divine.

"I'll dance in you as you dance in me" as sone line put it.

Call it the "force" if you are a Star Wars fan, call it "Skan, taku Skan Skan" if you are Lakota....

There is a force in all of us...

Ever heard of gravity?????

There is a force in all of us...

Ever heard of gravity?????
Or strong and weak nuclear forces and electromagnetism?

Not everyone knows about gravity here on these boards so I'd thought I'd keep it in general...

Careful you dont put the wrong mushrooms in your soup then.

A few years ago a close friend of my mothers was in the hospital prior to surgery. They had discovered a large tumor buried deep in her brain. The prognosis was very poor because of the size and location of the mass.

That night my mother ( she and her friend are very devout Roman Catholics ) and the Alter Guild which she belongs to met to pray specifically to the Virgin Mary for her friend.

My mothers friend reported that she woke to find a figure, (my mothers friend identified her as the Virgin Mary but had no knowledge of whom the Alter Guild ws praying to) standing by the head of her bed. She further stated that the figure reached out with both hands and put one on either side of her temple for some few seconds, then vanished.

When her husband came to be with her, before she was taken into surgery, she convinced him that her tumor was gone. They refused to have her taken into pre op, and finally managed to convince the doctors to do more tests. The doctors were very reluctant to do so and were completely astonished to find that the tumor, that showed up on X rays, CAT scan and MRI, was not longer there ( yes on X ray, CAT scan and MRI )

Miracle ? - my mother who is a rational, highly intellegent, highly educated person believes so - and I do understand that the particulars have been submitted to the 'proper' authorities with in the church but I do not know what is the status on the occurance ( my mother and I don't discuss religion much, as might be guessed )

I am just alittle skeptical *cough* of that story, do you think you could show some proof.... or even a news article that I can pretend is a reliable source.

Kid, if the prayer was what did it, only atheists would have tumors and such.

Kid, if the prayer was what did it, only atheists would have tumors and such.
And other heretics and infidels.

Which of course begs the question: Why would they GET them to start with?

Not enough prayer going on?

several points:
use paragraphs
dont use stupid fonts
dont use funny colours


Then why do they make those options available
in the interface? As for paragraphs, yes that
was one. Sorry to be obstinate, but when you
have as much education as I do, you begin to feel
like you have some creative license.

Studies HAVE actually been done on faith and religion and how it applies to illness. This website (http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm) catalogues some of them. Obviously the website's nature makes it a biased reference guide, I've read up on enough of what they've listed to be able to say it is quite fairly done. I think my only real complaint is that they've presented Sheldrake's theory as his morphogenetic field theory, which is incorrect - the one that applies is his morphoresonance theory, which at it's most basic says our intent affects the world around us.

Ah! This is Sheldrake's original paper on the subject. :)

http://www.sheldrake.org/papers/Morphic/prayer_paper.html

*yawn* Morning everyone...now that I read through the four or five pages I missed while sleeping...

What is the point of ritual and religion? At least in my mind, it is more a matter of self perfection and focus. I don't say self-perfection in order to raise myself above anyone else, cuz I'm far from it. I mean the act--the process of bettering myself. Meditations and rituals help my focus and my growth as a person. It helps me control my life and get a better hold on things. And as Tanara said, in my view point we are all part of the divine. For me, its about recognizing this to its fullest. I would definitly encourage anyone interested in reading up on pagan spirituality. And yes, before its argued, you can better oneself and focus oneself without any religion at all. I fully recognize this. I find I must follow my heart though and what I feel to be my path. This is the way it works for me.

Yeah I know the whole question is going back about three pages but I had to toss in my own little answer to it.:)

The existence of magic is defensible if you give up your materialistic notions that what is immaterial and exists must necessarily have some presence in the physical world.

Is it any wonder people scoff?

Aaah Wiccans :P... poor deluded people. How can they believe in a religion the victorians made up and crowbarred into history to make it more glamerous.

The same way the Hebrews believed the mythology they were fed by their preisthood, recycled out of Mesopotamian myth?

The same way the Gentiles were convinced by a handful of missionaries that the god of the Hebrews was actually a benevolenmt friend of all races?

In the case of Wicca, however - although the packaging is indeed very new - the evidences of many of the practices and concepts date back several hundred, to multiple thousands, of years.

The "Venus of Willendorf" could be argued to be a 'Wiccan' artifact, and predates christianity by 25,000 years.

No, not really. It is ultimately derived from the Old Persian magush, a member of the clerical class. It came to English from the Old French magique, from the Lating magice, from the Greek magikê, feminine of magikos, from magos. Nowhere in there do I see any sign of -ck.

Gardnerian Wicca has the -ck... partially to differentiate it from stage-illusion, partially to seperate it from the millenia of 'christianised' antipathy, and partially - I suspect - because it made people like Gardner feel 'special' to imprint their own 'individuality' onto the practice.

Not everyone knows about gravity here on these boards so I'd thought I'd keep it in general...

There is no such thing as gravity.... the Earth just sucks.... :)

Unfortuantely I have no idea if any news piece was ever done on this. My mother spoke in semi confidence to me about it, as I had enquired about her friend.

I can well understand how this sounds like an 'urban legend' but my mother is a highly unlikely source for such.

There is always the completely logical, and even believalbe option of spontaneous remission with side effects of such being hallucinations.

but as I prefer to believe that our disciplined, harnessed, will ( especially in groups acting in concert ) can and does affect the physical world, I call it majic.

Let me toss this in - what most consider 'casting spells', 'doing majick' - is actually ritual majick - such as practised by such occult groups as the OTO, the Masons ( oh the yelps are going to ring out now ), Cabbalists, etc.

The "Venus of Willendorf" could be argued to be a 'Wiccan' artifact, and predates christianity by 25,000 years.

It can't. It can be argued to be a pagan artifact, or an artifact of a matriarchal society, but not a Wiccan artifact. Wicca was fabricated in the 1950s by Gardner who claimed to have been handed down the knowledge from a mentor, who (conveniently enough) nobody ever met or proved to exist. Arguing that the Venus of Willendorf is a wiccan artifact is like arguing that archaeological finds from the Greek era are Roman artifacts - laying one system over another doesn't change the nature of the original.

Gardnerian Wicca has the -ck... partially to differentiate it from stage-illusion, partially to seperate it from the millenia of 'christianised' antipathy, and partially - I suspect - because it made people like Gardner feel 'special' to imprint their own 'individuality' onto the practice.
Ok, fair enough.

Let me toss this in - what most consider 'casting spells', 'doing majick' - is actually ritual majick - such as practised by such occult groups as the OTO, the Masons ( oh the yelps are going to ring out now ), Cabbalists, etc.
I admit I know very little about the Ordo Templi Orientis, I'm pretty damn sure that the Freemasons don't practise ritual magic. Of course, their secrecy could easily cloak that aspect about them, and it's really not fair to say whether they do or don't. But I'm pretty sure they're not a religious group. However, Kabbalists do no such thing! That is just so...wrong.

Ok, fair enough.
I admit I know very little about the Ordo Templi Orientis, I'm pretty damn sure that the Freemasons don't practise ritual magic. Of course, their secrecy could easily cloak that aspect about them, and it's really not fair to say whether they do or don't. But I'm pretty sure they're not a religious group. However, Kabbalists do no such thing! That is just so...wrong.

True, you know. Aleister Crowley did much to bring kabbalah into the public eye - mind though - you need to differentiate between the Jewish mystic tradition and the publicity whore celeb craze. Where one is an old and well-respected tradition, the other is a money-sucking fad for the easily-taken-in.

But much modern occultism and ceremonial magic is heavily influenced by kabbalistic teachings.

The existence of magic is defensible if you give up your materialistic notions that what is immaterial and exists must necessarily have some presence in the physical world.

Is it any wonder people scoff?

Abandon principles of logic and of the logically-governed, observable or monitorable universe and anything goes.

I am God incarnate. What? You don't think I am? You obviously haven't dropped your materialist, reality-based notions that I'm not!

There are many things which do not have a material presence but are scientifically accepted, things like gravity and electromagnetism. We can't see them, but we can see that they alter the universe in a predictable, provable way.

Magic would be logically plausible if a scientist, magician or whoever could, under test conditions, cast a magic spell which would have noticable, measurable results in the measurable world. Not necessarily the physical world, but in an aspect of the world which could be quantitatively or qualitively monitored. If he could say "Now, I'm going to cast a magic spell which will increase the reading on that geiger counter/voltage monitor/whatever measuring device" or something similar, and then perform the spell and have the same result occur several times.

Abandon principles of logic and of the logically-governed, observable or monitorable universe and anything goes.

I am God incarnate. What? You don't think I am? You obviously haven't dropped your materialist, reality-based notions that I'm not!

And you would be perfectly reasonable to say so. Many religions use that statement as a central tenet - Thelema, for instance. Even in some eastern traditions you're encouraged to become god through meditation. As even Christianity says, man is made in Gods' image. No reasonable person could disagree with your statement in a metaphysical sense, because it's impossible to prove otherwise. Remember, only disproving something is absolute.

There are many things which do not have a material presence but are scientifically accepted, things like gravity and electromagnetism. We can't see them, but we can see that they alter the universe in a predictable, provable way.

Magic would be logically plausible if a scientist, magician or whoever could, under test conditions, cast a magic spell which would have noticable, measurable results in the measurable world. Not necessarily the physical world, but in an aspect of the world which could be quantitatively or qualitively monitored. If he could say "Now, I'm going to cast a magic spell which will increase the reading on that geiger counter/voltage monitor/whatever measuring device" or something similar, and then perform the spell and have the same result occur several times.
Unfortunately, the nature of spellcasting doesn't bind well to that. General pagan spell-casting is designed (like indigenous practices and so on) to improve the life of the caster in small ways. Bringing luck, wealth, love, health. Yes, it's wooly. It's not greatly different from crossing your fingers while the lottery numbers are coming up, but with more trees and candles. You could study it scientifically if you wanted to, but you'd have a hard time getting anybody to take you seriously.

On the other hand, ceremonialist magic is completely introspective - it's designed to bring you closer to your god/gods/whatever you happen to believe in. To study its effects, you'd need to study the psychology and the mental effects of it, in much the same way scientists have studied meditation techniques.

It can't. It can be argued to be a pagan artifact, or an artifact of a matriarchal society, but not a Wiccan artifact. Wicca was fabricated in the 1950s by Gardner who claimed to have been handed down the knowledge from a mentor, who (conveniently enough) nobody ever met or proved to exist. Arguing that the Venus of Willendorf is a wiccan artifact is like arguing that archaeological finds from the Greek era are Roman artifacts - laying one system over another doesn't change the nature of the original.

You are making a classic mistake, my friend... you are buying the 'name' as though it were the 'thing'.

"Wicca" is the term we use to describe Gardner's project, but the root exists because the concept is not new.... playing semantic games about what the difference is between 'pagan' and 'wiccan' is missing the whole point.

What would have been a better example would have been a comparison of Roman and Sabine artifacts...

Abandon principles of logic and of the logically-governed, observable or monitorable universe and anything goes.
But that's just it --I am applying the principles of logic, namely metaphysics, which states that immaterial "mental" entities, though entirely subjectively perceived, exist.

rofl @ 'wiccans'

That, or something to that effect, is not the title of a spiritualist manual but a short book by the 18th century German philosopher Immanuel Kant. One's of Kant's central arguments applies equally well to Wicca and any other religion or belief system that claims to have some knowledge of the so-called miraculous or super-natural. The main problem is that these belief sytsems want it both ways - they want to make logical arguments AND claim that their belief system is beyond the critiques of reason. Take a magical spell, or Jesus turning water into wine. There is a relationship of cause and effect that exists in a given space and a given time. The water IN the barrel has to turn into wine, and it has to do so relatively quickly for us to conclude that a miracle has happened. That particular person has to be transformed into a toad (I apologize for the horrible example) soon after the spell is cast. There are temporal and spacial relationships and cause and effect involved. This is based on logic and reason. But, if you question the phenomenon and the mechanism involved, the answer you invariably get is that the phenomenon can'T be explained rationally.

I am a very religious person. I am a practicing Buddhist, and I have difficulties with the same problems that occur in the Buddhist tradition (though in my experience less frequently, and more often than not in more traditional folk Buddhism). I also recognize that the human mind only experiences a small part of the total realm of possible experience, and that hungry ghosts and various kinds of unpleasant hells may, in fact exist. The decisive question for me, one that drew me to Buddhism originally, is whether or not such assertions are indispensable for an acceptence of that particular belief system.

You are making a classic mistake, my friend... you are buying the 'name' as though it were the 'thing'.

"Wicca" is the term we use to describe Gardner's project, but the root exists because the concept is not new.... playing semantic games about what the difference is between 'pagan' and 'wiccan' is missing the whole point.

What would have been a better example would have been a comparison of Roman and Sabine artifacts...

So pointing out the difference between 'pagan' (in modern terms refers to earth-based, often polytheistic religions) and 'wiccan' (a ritualistic system based partly on the Judeo-Christian methods of the Golden Dawn and partly on a mish-mash of apocryphal data on folkloric charms and so on) is only playing semantic games?

That means the Norse were wiccan then, right? Ooh, and the druids are wiccan, too! That stonehenge is a prime example of a wiccan artifact. Those guys in the Temple of Set are bona fide egyptians, as are the members of the Cult of Isis!

Right?

The gods are dead.

The gods are dead.
I'd have to disagree with you there. the Christian God may be dead (it was only ever on loan from the Jews to begin with) but there are many other Deities that are making great comebacks in recent times.

rofl @ 'wiccans'

Nice arguement, good to see you researched your facts well.

I thought you were implying that Wicca had some sort of supernatural effect. It may have a psycological effect.

But in that case, what's the point of it?

Alright, I'll come back to this one now. There's a few points here in such a short sentence, and I'll attempt to address them to the best of my ability from different perspectives.

First off, a supernatural effect doesn't really apply to witchcraft of any kind - the essential nature of it deals with energy/life force and so forth. As such, the 'forces' witches and wiccans work with aren't supernatural in the same way the Tao of eastern religions isn't supernatural. It's just a way of describing the rhythm of life, you could say - Shiva's dance. Wiccans believe that through their workings they can cause effect on this underlying energy current, causing a sort of ripple effect outwards from them that works towards manifesting their intent. Whether this is the case or not is a matter for debate between people who have this belief and people who don't; it's not a theory I'm completely happy about. More scientifically-minded pagans will probably point you in the direction of quantum theory and the observation effect, summarised by the Schroedinger's Cat experiment and so on. Again, it's not a theory I'm completely happy about - describing the behaviour of waves and particles at quantum level is one thing, applying that to human behaviour and intent is quite another. Not being a Wiccan, I lean more to a psychological explanation, which is backed up by the end goal of 'High Magic' - enlightenment if you want to call it that.

The crux of it all is faith. As Heiligkeit says, what's the point of any religion? Believing that performing spellwork will make a change in your world isn't any different to believing that saying a prayer will do the same - you're assuming in both cases that individual intent and will can be projected outwards. It's maybe worth saying that in several organisations and faiths a highly ritualised structure of behaviour is used to promote the right kind of atmosphere amongst the attendents. That's used to enhance the psychological effects of what you're doing.