NationStates Jolt Archive

THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SPIRIT

The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds. Firstly, the rewards and punishments of this life; secondly, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, "Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 323)

Well no, I don't believe in the immortality of souls. When you die, you just die and then it's all over.

I don't believe that the spirit or soul is immortal. I believe it to be unique to each individual person, and does not survive their death. The purpose of spirit is to animate the flesh.

What's a soul?

What's a soul?

Something you have on the underside of your shou?

There is no proof that souls/spirits exist, and there is thus no reason to believe that they do.

What's a soul?
An euphemism for a man's personality.

An euphemism for a man's personality.
In that case, no. It doesn't survive death. The computer that program's running on ceases to function when deprived of oxygen for a short time.

I believe that spirit is an infinite form of energy which makes up everything in the material universe, and that a soul is a sentient form of spirit able to manipulate the dormant spirit around it, which was ultimately how the material universe was created. I also believe the only way to "kill" a soul, is through its own will to revert back to dormant spirit, or two or more other souls do so, as all souls are equal, and one's will for another not to exist is negated by the other's will to remain sentient.

An euphemism for a man's personality.

The spirit is changeless, indestructible. The progress and development of the soul, the joy and sorrow of the soul, are independent of the physical body.

If we are caused joy or pain by a friend, if a love prove true or false, it is the soul that is affected. If our dear ones are far from us -- it is the soul that grieves, and the grief or trouble of the soul may react on the body.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 65)

Homer: Oh, I'd sell my soul for a donut.
Flanders: Well, that can be arranged.
Homer: What? Flanders. You're the devil?
Flanders: Ho-ho, it's always the one you least suspect.

Ned Flanders: Now remember, the instant you finish it, I own your soul for...
[Homer has already scarfed the donut]
Homer: Hey, wait. If I don't finish this last bite, you don't get my soul, do you?
Ned Flanders: Well, technically no, but...
Homer: I'm smarter than the Devil. I'm smarter than the Dev...
[Flanders turns into a huge demon]
Ned Flanders: You are not smarter than me. i'll see you in hell yet, Homer Simpson!

Actually, the Bible no where says that the soul or spirit is immortal. Actually it says the opposite.
"Fear not him is able to kill the body, but rather fear him who is able to kill the soul."

I don't believe that the spirit or soul is immortal. I believe it to be unique to each individual person, and does not survive their death. The purpose of spirit is to animate the flesh.
true.

You're born, you live, you die, you're worm food - End of story.

What's a soul?
The spirit is actually the breath of life which comes from God.
Spirit (breath of life) + physical body = soul.

There is no proof that souls/spirits exist, and there is thus no reason to believe that they do.
Actually no one has been able to disprove their existence, just like no one has ever proven that there is no God. Hence the lack of evidence that they don't exist is as much reason for believing in them as not.

In that case, no. It doesn't survive death. The computer that program's running on ceases to function when deprived of oxygen for a short time.
Ah, you are close.
It is just like a computer program. What happens is that your body is the hardware and your spirit is the software that holds your basically personality, it also records every single thought you have ever had, every word you ever spoke, and every action you have ever recorded.
When the body breaks down and dies, the spirit is taken from the body (think of pulling a floppy or a CD from a computer that is broken down and which you move to something else or put up on a shelf for later.),and returns to God. God takes it and like that floppy or CD, he puts it on the shelf to await the great ressurection. At the ressurection, we get new bodies and our spirits (or CD') are put into new bodies (new computers).
Basically the spirit is a recording of every evil action and every good action you have ever committed whether great or small. And you are judged according to those actions. Unless your name is in the lambs book.

Actually no one has been able to disprove their existence, just like no one has ever proven that there is no God. Hence the lack of evidence that they don't exist is as much reason for believing in them as not.

The same can be said for unicorns.

I believe that spirit is an infinite form of energy which makes up everything in the material universe, and that a soul is a sentient form of spirit able to manipulate the dormant spirit around it, which was ultimately how the material universe was created. I also believe the only way to "kill" a soul, is through its own will to revert back to dormant spirit, or two or more other souls do so, as all souls are equal, and one's will for another not to exist is negated by the other's will to remain sentient.
there is only one form of infinite energy, that is God. He and he alone is immortal. Behold, even the angels, though their lifespams are greater than ours, even they are mortal and can die. Satan is mortal and can die to. He just has longer life span. See revelation where it says that Satan dies at the End of Days.

Actually, the Bible no where says that the soul or spirit is immortal. Actually it says the opposite.
[QUOTE]"Fear not him is able to kill the body, but rather fear him who is able to kill the soul."

Don't you think that by killing the soul in this quote means taking the spirit out of a person, the joy, the life?

The same can be said for unicorns.
Actually the unicorn was based off a prehistoric deer that actually existed.
Besides which, the unicorn unlike the soul, is supposed to be a physical creature, not a spiritual one.

there is only one form of infinite energy, that is God. He and he alone is immortal.

Incorrect, by Christian standards: question what did Jesus die on the cross for - something about earning immortality for all mankind that accepted him as their saviour, no?

[QUOTE=Whittier-]Actually, the Bible no where says that the soul or spirit is immortal. Actually it says the opposite.


Don't you think that by killing the soul in this quote means taking the spirit out of a person, the joy, the life?
Actually, it means the soul itself, ceases to exist. It evaporates into oblivion. Never to exist again. Kind of like, a person being completely erased.

Besides which, the unicorn unlike the soul, is supposed to be a physical creature, not a spiritual one.

So, you are now claiming that this standard of evidence applies only to the realm of the spirit?

Incorrect, by Christian standards: question what did Jesus die on the cross for - something about earning immortality for all mankind that accepted him as their saviour, no?
We don't get immortality until the great ressurection, which occurs at the second coming of christ. Which, if you go by the jewish calendar, should be the year 2237AD

So, you are now claiming that this standard of evidence applies only to the realm of the spirit?
Well, yes, that should be obvious. Cause in the physical world, we've explored the whole planet. No unicorns have ever been found. But we have no way to explore the spirit world, thus we can't say if it exists or doesn't exist.
Its like the debate on the existence of other dimensions. We have no way to prove they do or don't exist. The spirit world is sort of like one of those dimensions.

[QUOTE=GoodThoughts]
Actually, it means the soul itself, ceases to exist. It evaporates into oblivion. Never to exist again. Kind of like, a person being completely erased.


The spirit is changeless, indestructible. The progress and development of the soul, the joy and sorrow of the soul, are independent of the physical body.

If we are caused joy or pain by a friend, if a love prove true or false, it is the soul that is affected. If our dear ones are far from us -- it is the soul that grieves, and the grief or trouble of the soul may react on the body.

Thus, when the spirit is fed with holy virtues, then is the body joyous; if the soul falls into sin, the body is in torment!

When we find truth, constancy, fidelity, and love, we are happy; but if we meet with lying, faithlessness, and deceit, we are miserable.

These are all things pertaining to the soul, and are not bodily ills. Thus, it is apparent that the soul, even as the body, has its own individuality. But if the body *66* undergoes a change, the spirit need not be touched. When you break a glass on which the sun shines, the glass is broken, but the sun still shines! If a cage containing a bird is destroyed, the bird is unharmed! If a lamp is broken, the flame can still burn bright!

The same thing applies to the spirit of man. Though death destroy his body, it has no power over his spirit -- this is eternal, everlasting, both birthless and deathless.

As to the soul of man after death, it remains in the degree of purity to which it has evolved during life in the physical body, and after it is freed from the body it remains plunged in the ocean of God's Mercy.

From the moment the soul leaves the body and arrives in the Heavenly World, its evolution is spiritual, and that evolution is: The approaching unto God.

In the physical creation, evolution is from one degree of perfection to another. The mineral passes with its mineral perfections to the vegetable; the vegetable, with its perfections, passes to the animal world, and so on to that of humanity. This world is full of seeming contradictions; in each of these kingdoms (mineral, vegetable and animal) life exists in its degree; though when compared to the life in a man, the earth appears to be dead, yet she, too, lives and has a life of her own. In this world things live and die, and live again in other forms of life, but in the world of the spirit it is quite otherwise.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 65)

Well, yes, that should be obvious. Cause in the physical world, we've explored the whole planet. No unicorns have ever been found.


However, we continue to discover new previously unknown or only heretofore rumoured to exist species, some of them even quite large mammals, and thus we cannot state that unicorns do not exist if we are to adopt your poisition with regards evidence.

[QUOTE=Whittier-]


The spirit is changeless, indestructible. The progress and development of the soul, the joy and sorrow of the soul, are independent of the physical body.

If we are caused joy or pain by a friend, if a love prove true or false, it is the soul that is affected. If our dear ones are far from us -- it is the soul that grieves, and the grief or trouble of the soul may react on the body.

Thus, when the spirit is fed with holy virtues, then is the body joyous; if the soul falls into sin, the body is in torment!

When we find truth, constancy, fidelity, and love, we are happy; but if we meet with lying, faithlessness, and deceit, we are miserable.

These are all things pertaining to the soul, and are not bodily ills. Thus, it is apparent that the soul, even as the body, has its own individuality. But if the body *66* undergoes a change, the spirit need not be touched. When you break a glass on which the sun shines, the glass is broken, but the sun still shines! If a cage containing a bird is destroyed, the bird is unharmed! If a lamp is broken, the flame can still burn bright!

The same thing applies to the spirit of man. Though death destroy his body, it has no power over his spirit -- this is eternal, everlasting, both birthless and deathless.

As to the soul of man after death, it remains in the degree of purity to which it has evolved during life in the physical body, and after it is freed from the body it remains plunged in the ocean of God's Mercy.

From the moment the soul leaves the body and arrives in the Heavenly World, its evolution is spiritual, and that evolution is: The approaching unto God.

In the physical creation, evolution is from one degree of perfection to another. The mineral passes with its mineral perfections to the vegetable; the vegetable, with its perfections, passes to the animal world, and so on to that of humanity. This world is full of seeming contradictions; in each of these kingdoms (mineral, vegetable and animal) life exists in its degree; though when compared to the life in a man, the earth appears to be dead, yet she, too, lives and has a life of her own. In this world things live and die, and live again in other forms of life, but in the world of the spirit it is quite otherwise.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 65)

Yet God is able to erase the soul from existence, whereby, killing it. Unless you mean to imply the soul is more powerful than God.

[QUOTE=GoodThoughts]

Yet God is able to erase the soul from existence, whereby, killing it. Unless you mean to imply the soul is more powerful than God.

I don't believe that the creation is more powerful than the Creator. I just doubt that God would destroy the soul. I don't think there Bible verse that support that theory other than those that are interpeted in a solely literal sense.

We don't get immortality until the great ressurection, which occurs at the second coming of christ. Which, if you go by the jewish calendar, should be the year 2237AD

The Second Coming has already happened... May 23, 1844.

Ah, you are close.
It is just like a computer program. What happens is that your body is the hardware and your spirit is the software that holds your basically personality, it also records every single thought you have ever had, every word you ever spoke, and every action you have ever recorded.
When the body breaks down and dies, the spirit is taken from the body (think of pulling a floppy or a CD from a computer that is broken down and which you move to something else or put up on a shelf for later.),and returns to God. God takes it and like that floppy or CD, he puts it on the shelf to await the great ressurection. At the ressurection, we get new bodies and our spirits (or CD') are put into new bodies (new computers).
Basically the spirit is a recording of every evil action and every good action you have ever committed whether great or small. And you are judged according to those actions. Unless your name is in the lambs book.
Except that there is no floppy disk or CD. There isn't anything that can be seen exiting the human body at the time of death except heat and perhaps fluids. Your assertion is based on pure speculation and imagination.

And you are judged according to those actions. Unless your name is in the lambs book.

So, for those whose names are in the book already, we see the dilemma: either they do not have free will and are unable to sin, or it is possible to sin and still be redeemed, even without embracing God or religion.

Except that there is no floppy disk or CD. There isn't anything that can be seen exiting the human body at the time of death except heat and perhaps fluids. [QUOTE]Your assertion is based on pure speculation and imagination.

This part is only true if one doesn't believe in God or any of His Messengers!

There is no proof that souls/spirits exist, and there is thus no reason to believe that they do.
There is no proof that they don't, and thus there is no reason to belive they don't. :p

[QUOTE=Drunk commies]Except that there is no floppy disk or CD. There isn't anything that can be seen exiting the human body at the time of death except heat and perhaps fluids.

This part is only true if one doesn't believe in God or any of His Messengers!
No, it's true unless one can produce evidence of something called a soul that exits the body upon death.

There is no proof that they don't, and thus there is no reason to belive they don't. :p
You also have no reason to beleive that evil mutant robot cyborg assasins don't exist. I can sell you a special drink that repels them if you want.

The spirit is changeless, indestructible. The progress and development of the soul, the joy and sorrow of the soul, are independent of the physical body.

Are you talking pre heaven or post heaven, in terms of the soul? Because there are different degrees of where one's essence resides, as soul. We have the preheaven where we are reintroduced into corporeal soul through the "ming men" or the gate of destiny. The preheaven essence, as soul, still needs it's spiritual house in order to exist, in this corporeal dimension.

Once that is established then the house of the spirit, we'll call it the body, and post heaven, is where the soul is able to understand "it's" corporeal self. Without the mind's post heaven adventures, then the soul would not be able to identify with "joy, sorrow, pain, etc." It is through the instrument of the terrestrial body that allows our pre heaven soul to become sentient, i.e., explore, understand, and know "that" which leads to enlightenment.

ex/ could our spirit partake in (kundilini shakti) energies/ direction/ choice without the body's battery like container?

We could not rise to the state of our ajna chakra (third eye) without the body. We choose to attain the riches of these bio-kinetics to reach that state of nirvana.

Upon achieving enlightenment/ sentience our souls have accomplished and worked through it's karma, thereby releasing us of any desires to return to earth. Ultimately, thus allowing our souls to drift in cosmic essence eternally, in peace.

If we are caused joy or pain by a friend, if a love prove true or false, it is the soul that is affected. If our dear ones are far from us -- it is the soul that grieves, and the grief or trouble of the soul may react on the body.

I don't think it's the soul that greives, unless it is attached to the conditions of this world. I do think there are karmic hurts from past life times which can be triggered in our modern day life, which need to be healed if one is aware enough. However, opening to this level of acceptance takes time...

Essentially, the mind is instrument which directs our grieving. It is attached to conditions of what "near and dear ones" mean, not the soul. The soul is rather pure, it is the mind and karma that can taint the person's essence.

[QUOTE=GoodThoughts]
No, it's true unless one can produce evidence of something called a soul that exits the body upon death.
Actually it don't work that way.
We have no proof of string theory, yet we believe it exists.

[QUOTE=Drunk commies]
Actually it don't work that way.
We have no proof of string theory, yet we believe it exists.
It explains some things, and the math works. That's evidence. Plus it's not seen as a fact, only a possible theory.

[QUOTE=Whittier-]
It explains some things, and the math works. That's evidence. Plus it's not seen as a fact, only a possible theory.
The math doesn't work in all cases.
Also, if you believe in the existence of the soul, then it explains some things too.
The concept of the existence of the soul is just as valid a theory by that logic, since there is no math that could disprove it.

[QUOTE=Drunk commies]
The math doesn't work in all cases.
Also, if you believe in the existence of the soul, then it explains some things too.
The concept of the existence of the soul is just as valid a theory by that logic, since there is no math that could disprove it.
No, you are confused. The math behind string theory supports it, doesn't just "fail to disprove it".

What observable phenomenon does the soul explain?

[QUOTE=Whittier-]
No, you are confused. The math behind string theory supports it, doesn't just "fail to disprove it".

What observable phenomenon does the soul explain?
Even Albert Einstein said that you can't use math to explain away everything.
You must remember that in those other dimensions, the laws of physics and even the math would be different from the ones in our dimension. So it is in the spirit world.

[QUOTE=Drunk commies]
Even Albert Einstein said that you can't use math to explain away everything.
You must remember that in those other dimensions, the laws of physics and even the math would be different from the ones in our dimension. So it is in the spirit world.
Other dimensions? String theory describes those. Math doesn't describe everything maybe so, maybe not? Perhaps his math wasn't good enough. He was a brilliant man, but he made some dumb statements at times. That spirit world you speak of has nothing but imagination to support it.

there is only one form of infinite energy, that is God.
Which is precicely why I believe God is a personification of spirit... And considering spirit to me represents infinite possibility, I would much rather personify it as Eris of Discordianism, than any God of an organized monotheistic religion

[QUOTE=Whittier-]
Other dimensions? String theory describes those. Math doesn't describe everything maybe so, maybe not? Perhaps his math wasn't good enough. He was a brilliant man, but he made some dumb statements at times. That spirit world you speak of has nothing but imagination to support it.
But we benefitted greatly from his mistakes. I would recommend you look up the september 2004 issue of Discover. Its a special edition about the life of Einstein that shows how our modern world developed from not only his genius, but from his mistakes. At the time he made them, they would have seemed dumb but now many of them are proving to be true by researchers in quantum theory and in cosmology. Remember, the Cosmological constant was supposed to be a mistake, now we know for a fact that it exists.

And how exactly are you so sure the spirit world isn't one of these other dimensions? Where is your proof? There are 11 dimensions according to M theory and the spirit world could just be one of those other dimensions. But since no has the capability to detect or explore those dimensions, you can't say it does or does not exist. The math used in M theory only predicts that other dimensions exist, it doesn't describe them or their nature. Hence, it is entirely plausible that one of those other 7 dimensions predicted by M theory, could be a spirit world where our spirits go to reside after death. And since the spirits other dimensional, it should be no surprise that we can't see or detect them (all claims to the contrary being mostly hoaxes.)

I suppose it's immortal.

BTW, Whittier, other dimensions doesn't mean other worlds. Just other directions the strings can vibrate into. Imagine a guitar string. It's so big it doesn't fit into any but the four dimensions we deal with on a daily basis. It can vibrate up, down, left, right, foreward and back (depending on the string's orientation) and it vibrates through the fourth dimension (time). The strings in string theory vibrate in at least 10 different directions (dimensions) because of their small size they can vibrate into dimensions that we can't interact with directly.

[QUOTE=Drunk commies]
But we benefitted greatly from his mistakes. I would recommend you look up the september 2004 issue of Discover. Its a special edition about the life of Einstein that shows how our modern world developed from not only his genius, but from his mistakes. At the time he made them, they would have seemed dumb but now many of them are proving to be true by researchers in quantum theory and in cosmology. Remember, the Cosmological constant was supposed to be a mistake, now we know for a fact that it exists.

And how exactly are you so sure the spirit world isn't one of these other dimensions? Where is your proof? There are 11 dimensions according to M theory and the spirit world could just be one of those other dimensions. But since no has the capability to detect or explore those dimensions, you can't say it does or does not exist. The math used in M theory only predicts that other dimensions exist, it doesn't describe them or their nature. Hence, it is entirely plausible that one of those other 7 dimensions predicted by M theory, could be a spirit world where our spirits go to reside after death. And since the spirits other dimensional, it should be no surprise that we can't see or detect them (all claims to the contrary being mostly hoaxes.)
You don't understand what dimensions are. Please see my post above.

[QUOTE=Whittier-]
You don't understand what dimensions are. Please see my post above.
Eh. No you don't understand. String theory does not describe other dimensions, it only predicts that they should exist.

[QUOTE=Drunk commies]
Eh. No you don't understand. String theory does not describe other dimensions, it only predicts that they should exist.
Yes, as tiny little directions that the strings can vibrate into. No more no less.

BTW, Whittier, other dimensions doesn't mean other worlds. Just other directions the strings can vibrate into. Imagine a guitar string. It's so big it doesn't fit into any but the four dimensions we deal with on a daily basis. It can vibrate up, down, left, right, foreward and back (depending on the string's orientation) and it vibrates through the fourth dimension (time). The strings in string theory vibrate in at least 10 different directions (dimensions) because of their small size they can vibrate into dimensions that we can't interact with directly.
And what's to say that if a guitar string can only fit into the 4 dimensions that we perceive, other things cannot exist only in dimenions we cannot perceive? What if spirit exists in the dimension of time, but since it doesn't exist in the dimensions of height, width, or depth, we only have a very limited perception of it considering time is not sensed in the same sense as the other 3?

And in what direction does time move exactly? Sure you can say "forward" but it obviously doesn't move in the same sense as up or down, forward or backward, or left or right.

Actually no one has been able to disprove their existence, just like no one has ever proven that there is no God. Hence the lack of evidence that they don't exist is as much reason for believing in them as not.

Lacking reasons != having reasons. Thanks for playing, though.

Why do people have such a difficulty getting that you can never prove a negative, and that that in no way makes the positive viable at all?

And what's to say that if a guitar string can only fit into the 4 dimensions that we perceive, other things cannot exist only in dimenions we cannot perceive? What if spirit exists in the dimension of time, but since it doesn't exist in the dimensions of height, width, or depth, we only have a very limited perception of it considering time is not sensed in the same sense as the other 3?

And in what direction does time move exactly? Sure you can say "forward" but it obviously doesn't move in the same sense as up or down, forward or backward, or left or right.
It would have an effect on the observable world. Like strings. They vibrate into dimensions we can't see. In doing so they determine the properties of particles. I asked earlier in this thread what observable phenomena can we see affected by the supposed spirits? I have yet to receive an answer.

You also have no reason to beleive that evil mutant robot cyborg assasins don't exist. I can sell you a special drink that repels them if you want.
Does it come in chocolate?

And in what direction does time move exactly? Sure you can say "forward" but it obviously doesn't move in the same sense as up or down, forward or backward, or left or right.
That's like asking "is an object moving from up to down going left or right?" It's a nonsensical question.

Does it come in chocolate?
sure, but it's very expensive.

It would have an effect on the observable world. Like strings. They vibrate into dimensions we can't see. In doing so they determine the properties of particles. I asked earlier in this thread what observable phenomena can we see affected by the supposed spirits? I have yet to receive an answer.
And yet guitar strings could have no affect on the dimensions we can't see?

And it'd seem many people like to point to the difference between organic matter while alive as opposed to dead as evidence of the affects of spirit in the observable world. They also point to the well documented phenomena of out of body experiences, poltergeist, and most any long standing occult tradition, many of which date back millenia, have many practices based on the existence of spirit and spiritual energy.

That's like asking "is an object moving from up to down going left or right?" It's a nonsensical question.
... And yet, you can visibly witness an object moving up to down or left to right, and in fact, you can witness it doing both at the same time along with forward to backward. The point is, time as a dimension is of a different nature than the other three observable dimensions and isn't really a direction in the same sense.

And yet guitar strings could have no affect on the dimensions we can't see? When did I say that? They interact.

And it'd seem many people like to point to the difference between organic matter while alive as opposed to dead as evidence of the affects of spirit in the observable world. They also point to the well documented phenomena of out of body experiences, poltergeist, and most any long standing occult tradition, many of which date back millenia, have many practices based on the existence of spirit and spiritual energy.
The only difference in the organic matter pre and post death is the chemical reactions going on in it. And those phenomena aren't well documented at all. They are based on anecdotal experience, known hoaxes, and misinterpretation of ordinary events.

... And yet, you can visibly witness an object moving up to down or left to right, and in fact, you can witness it doing both at the same time along with forward to backward. The point is, time as a dimension is of a different nature than the other three observable dimensions and isn't really a direction in the same sense.
And you can't observe an object moving through time? It's only that you are moving along with it. In all honesty, you should check out the PBS series, or the book "The Elegant Universe". I'm not a physicist, but the physicist who wrote that is one of the leading string theory researchers. I'm starting to get out of my depth and I'm not going to rely on guesses and speculation.

I suppose the answer would depend on what you mean by spirit or soul. If you mean as a discrete, separate thing unique to each person, animal, rock or phenomena then absolutely not.

If you mean that which is All but in and of itself Nothing, the inifinite potential which gives rise to the seemingly discrete forms in order to constantly flow, recreate and reshape itself then yes.

When did I say that? They interact.


The only difference in the organic matter pre and post death is the chemical reactions going on in it. And those phenomena aren't well documented at all. They are based on anecdotal experience, known hoaxes, and misinterpretation of ordinary events.
There is a great deal that can not be explained away with physics or logic.

And you can't observe an object moving through time? It's only that you are moving along with it. In all honesty, you should check out the PBS series, or the book "The Elegant Universe". I'm not a physicist, but the physicist who wrote that is one of the leading string theory researchers. I'm starting to get out of my depth and I'm not going to rely on guesses and speculation.
Yet that is all you really have to go on.

There is a great deal that can not be explained away with physics or logic.
Abandon logic and anything goes. You must admit the possibility of something that is yellow and at the same time blue. It leads to nonsense.

Yet that is all you really have to go on.
No, I have reason, logic, math, and reproducible experiments to go on. You're the one who has posted nothing but speculative guesses for the most part.

Abandon logic and anything goes. You must admit the possibility of something that is yellow and at the same time blue. It leads to nonsense.
Not really.

The universe is a hierarchical information tree. Physical matter and energy are at one level of this information tree. The soul resides at a higher information level and many physical forms can be subordinant to a single soul. Souls themselves are subordinant to an information construct on an even higher level and this keeps going untill he reach the single information construct on the root level of the universe, the thing that we call God.
The information structure itself may or may not be eternal, but the soul is no more eternal than the body, it just happens to last longer.

Not really.
Nice comeback. Its true though. Logic is what excludes the possibility of self-contradiction. Without logic there's no way to separate truth from fiction.

No, I have reason, logic, math, and reproducible experiments to go on. You're the one who has posted nothing but speculative guesses for the most part.
Experiments? What experiments. There aren't any that deal with the spirit world.
Human reason and human logic are already to be proven to be fallible and prone to error.
Math is only as good as the person putting in the inputs.

The universe is a hierarchical information tree. Physical matter and energy are at one level of this information tree. The soul resides at a higher information level and many physical forms can be subordinant to a single soul. Souls themselves are subordinant to an information construct on an even higher level and this keeps going untill he reach the single information construct on the root level of the universe, the thing that we call God.
The information structure itself may or may not be eternal, but the soul is no more eternal than the body, it just happens to last longer.
Is it polka-dotted and pink and shaped like a bat too?

Experiments? What experiments. There aren't any that deal with the spirit world.
Human reason and human logic are already to be proven to be fallible and prone to error.
Math is only as good as the person putting in the inputs.
Precisely. One can't experiment with something that doesn't interact with the observable, testable universe around us. One can't gather evidence about it. It has all the properties, therefore, of non-existance. If it looks like a duck....

Nice comeback. Its true though. Logic is what excludes the possibility of self-contradiction. Without logic there's no way to separate truth from fiction.

This is a big problem when people try to explain "the spirit world" and the like. Anything which doesn't obey some kind of logical principle does not and cannot exist.

In order for anything to exist, it must exist for a certain non-zero amount of time. If it didn't its presence would simply not occur. Since time is a component of logic and of the universe, for something to exist outside of it is impossible. The same applies with space.

Anyway, on the idea of an immortal soul. As I said, if the soul is going to leave the physical, logical realm, it will enter the realm of non-existence. It will no longer be a part of reality, and will thus cease to exist.

However, I honestly don't think there is anything holy or mystical about the human mind. The mind, spirit, call it what you will, does live on in the sense that its components are still present in the physical universe. However, they're no longer capable of thought or the like until they're assimilated into another intelligent entity, so the mind itself dies by being rearranged.

Precisely. One can't experiment with something that doesn't interact with the observable, testable universe around us. One can't gather evidence about it. It has all the properties, therefore, of non-existance. If it looks like a duck....
Just because you can't test something does not mean it does not test. Contrary to what you beleive, physcists have not done any experiments to test the nature of other dimensions, reason being that they can't.
All they've done is experiments that predict the existence of other dimensions. Just because the orbit of the moon predicts the existence of the earth, does not mean you know the nature or physical properties of the earth. To know them you either have to be on the earth or send a probe to explore it. You can't do that with the other dimensions.

Abandon logic and anything goes. You must admit the possibility of something that is yellow and at the same time blue. It leads to nonsense.
There is a way for something to be yellow and at the same time blue.. it's called green...

Just because you can't test something does not mean it does not test. Contrary to what you beleive, physcists have not done any experiments to test the nature of other dimensions, reason being that they can't.
All they've done is experiments that predict the existence of other dimensions. Just because the orbit of the moon predicts the existence of the earth, does not mean you know the nature or physical properties of the earth. To know them you either have to be on the earth or send a probe to explore it. You can't do that with the other dimensions.
They have constructed theories based on math and all the observable evidence, made predictions based on those theories, and the predictions, so far, have bourne them out.

Yes, You know the mass of the earth from observing the orbit of the moon.

There is a way for something to be yellow and at the same time blue.. it's called green...
Quantum theory also explains it. Take Schroders cat: when it is inside the box it both exists and doesn't exist at the same time. But when you observe it, you change it.
Or take the quantum nature of light.

There is a way for something to be yellow and at the same time blue.. it's called green...
No, then it's green. It reflects light only in the green portion of the spectrum, not the yellow, not the blue.

Quantum theory also explains it. Take Schroders cat: when it is inside the box it both exists and doesn't exist at the same time. But when you observe it, you change it.
Or take the quantum nature of light.
And quantum physics is based on math, which is logic. What's your point?

They have constructed theories based on math and all the observable evidence, made predictions based on those theories, and the predictions, so far, have bourne them out.

Yes, You know the mass of the earth from observing the orbit of the moon.
But you know there a great deal of things that defy the math.
And you know that many of those predictions failed to pan out.
To say they have, is a lie.

Of course you would know the earth's mass from the orbit of the moon. But you wouldn't know if there were trees or people or such. Or even water.

But you know there a great deal of things that defy the math.
And you know that many of those predictions failed to pan out.
To say they have, is a lie.

Of course you would know the earth's mass from the orbit of the moon. But you wouldn't know if there were trees or people or such. Or even water.
But because of your observation of it's effect on another part of the real world (the moon), you would know two properties about the earth. It exists, and it has a given mass.

When predictions made by a theory fail to pan out the theory is reworked or thrown out.

What predictions can we make from your "spirit world" hypothesis?

And quantum physics is based on math, which is logic. What's your point?
Everything that is predicted by math, is usually proven by experiment or disproven. Remember that 80% of string theory kept getting disproven.
And that M theory is only the latest and only proves what we are capable of seeing.
We know there was something before the big bang, but we can't see it.

Everything that is predicted by math, is usually proven by experiment or disproven. Remember that 80% of string theory kept getting disproven.
And that M theory is only the latest and only proves what we are capable of seeing.
We know there was something before the big bang, but we can't see it.
All we know is what we are capable of observing, measuring and testing. Math and logic are two of the tools we use.

What does any of this have to do with the spirit world? Perhaps the fact that it can't be shown to exist?

But because of your observation of it's effect on another part of the real world (the moon), you would know two properties about the earth. It exists, and it has a given mass.

When predictions made by a theory fail to pan out the theory is reworked or thrown out.

What predictions can we make from your "spirit world" hypothesis?
1. Yes but you wouldn't know about any of its other properties.
2. I agree. And we know that most of the string theories, except for M have been thrown out. While M is being reworked because it is the most plausible of all the string theories.
3. That is close to the point I am making with the earth moon reference. You can use logic and observation to say, "something should be here", but that doesn't mean you can make an educated prediction of the other characteristics of such "something". All you get is "something is there" and "something is affecting our universe".
My saying that one of the dimensions is a spirit world is a guess just as much as your saying that it isn't is also a guess. But both are based on pure speculation.

All we know is what we are capable of observing, measuring and testing. Math and logic are two of the tools we use.

What does any of this have to do with the spirit world? Perhaps the fact that it can't be shown to exist?
Yes they are tools that we use. But remember that they are not flawless. They, like computers, are only as good as the person using them.
What does this have to do with the spirit world? Well, your the one who is saying that if you can't see it, then it don't exist.

1. Yes but you wouldn't know about any of its other properties.
2. I agree. And we know that most of the string theories, except for M have been thrown out. While M is being reworked because it is the most plausible of all the string theories.
3. That is close to the point I am making with the earth moon reference. You can use logic and observation to say, "something should be here", but that doesn't mean you can make an educated prediction of the other characteristics of such "something". All you get is "something is there" and "something is affecting our universe".
My saying that one of the dimensions is a spirit world is a guess just as much as your saying that it isn't is also a guess. But both are based on pure speculation.
1 At least you would establish it exists. You haven't done so with the spirit world, and I dont' think you can.

2 No comment

3 "something should be there" type data is all that I ask. Nobody's provided that about spirits or the spirit world.

The dimensions described by M theory are just directions. Not separate worlds. They are part of our universe. Saying one of them might house the spirit world is like saying the space between the drywall and studs in your house might.

Yes they are tools that we use. But remember that they are not flawless. They, like computers, are only as good as the person using them.
What does this have to do with the spirit world? Well, your the one who is saying that if you can't see it, then it don't exist.
Having lots of people use them and checking each other's math vastly reduces mistakes. Given enough time mistakes are slowly eliminated. The scientific method works.

1 At least you would establish it exists. You haven't done so with the spirit world, and I dont' think you can.

2 No comment

3 "something should be there" type data is all that I ask. Nobody's provided that about spirits or the spirit world.

The dimensions described by M theory are just directions. Not separate worlds. They are part of our universe. Saying one of them might house the spirit world is like saying the space between the drywall and studs in your house might.
1. You misunderstand about the spirit world.
3. Same as about as 1 above. The only term I can think to describe its possibility is relativity. To spirits, they and their world exist but to us, it doesn't. Reason being that they are there and we are not.
Again, I am speculating that one of those other 7 dimensions that the strings move through is a spirit world. It is just as valid an assumption as your speculation that none of them are spirit worlds. To say a dimension is a spirit world is the same as saying the earth contains life without having visited it.

souls aren't really souls, they are the consiosness within unity, that's why everything can be related, because everyone has the same soul.

Having lots of people use them and checking each other's math vastly reduces mistakes. Given enough time mistakes are slowly eliminated. The scientific method works.
True. Indeed the laws of Newton were thought to be immortal and unerring until Einstein came along and proved otherwise. You do know that he made a lot of enemies when he first came out with his theories.

No, then it's green. It reflects light only in the green portion of the spectrum, not the yellow, not the blue.
Umm, blue + yellow = green.. I thought people learned this in Kindergarden if not sooner...

1. You misunderstand about the spirit world.
3. Same as about as 1 above. The only term I can think to describe its possibility is relativity. To spirits, they and their world exist but to us, it doesn't. Reason being that they are there and we are not.
Again, I am speculating that one of those other 7 dimensions that the strings move through is a spirit world. It is just as valid an assumption as your speculation that none of them are spirit worlds. To say a dimension is a spirit world is the same as saying the earth contains life without having visited it.
If it is, then the spirit world is within our universe. If the spirit world is within our universe, then it would interact with other parts of our universe. If it did, we would see some effect on the observable portions of our universe.

Show me how the spirit world affects the observable universe.

If it doesn't interact with the observable universe, then it is for all intents and purposes identical to something that doesnt exist. Therefore, it doesn't exist.

Umm, blue + yellow = green.. I thought people learned this in Kindergarden if not sooner...
Um, light is composed of photons, which sometimes act as waves, sometimes as particles. Their color is determined by their wavelength. Some are blue, some are green, some are yellow. A yellow object reflects only yellow photons. A blue object reflects only blue photons. A green object reflects only green photons. Therefore you make green by blending yellow and blue pigments, but green is NOT yellow, nor is it blue.

My education didn't end in Kindergarten.

Therefore you make green by blending yellow and blue pigments, but green is NOT yellow, nor is it blue.
You're right, it's a combination of both as even you just admitted. And apparently your education is lacking somewhere, because not only did you use an analogy that was so easily exploited, you went on to take an obviously smart assed comment about your flawed analogy seriously...

And apparently your education is lacking somewhere, because not only did you use an analogy that was so easily exploited, you went on to take an obviously smart assed comment about your flawed analogy seriously...
It's impossible to tell how serious you're being on the internet. Use a smiley next time. I can't read body language or tone of voice from a computer screen.

And I said something that is at the same time Blue and Yellow. Green doesn't count because it's neither. It's not a bad analogy, you just didn't get it. Partly my fault, I should have used a clearer one.

And I said something that is at the same time Blue and Yellow. Green doesn't count because it's neither. It's not a bad analogy, you just didn't get it. Partly my fault, I should have used a clearer one.
Oh, I got it, hence why it was a smart assed comment. Once again, your education seems to be quite lacking.

Oh, I got it, hence why it was a smart assed comment. Once again, your education seems to be quite lacking.
Yes, let's keep the ad-hominem crap up. That always wins an argument. Flame away. It just shows what an asshole you are.

I would just like to point out something about the whole light spectrum thing and how colors "mix". It has only recently been accepted(within the last 25-30 years or so)that the primary colors are red, blue, and green(weird, I know, but true). Also, technically, the secondary colors(and all other colors that are not primary ones)are perceived subjectively and do not exist as their own seperate "concepts". What I mean is that when someone sees orange, they are not really seeing orange; this is only how the brain processes the information of the seperate red and green primary photons which are too finetely small for the brain to perceive as individual points of light and thus color. As it has been sometime since I've studied physics I can't quote you a reference for this scientifically but, this priniciple is widely accepted in art circles and is the basis for the art style, pointillism(originated by Georges Seurat) where he produces color mixtures NOT by physically mixing the paints themselves BUT by using tiny dots of primary-colored paint and letting the eye(and, consequently, the brain)mix the colors.

**edit**Bill Nye's got nothing on me :D

Yes, let's keep the ad-hominem crap up. That always wins an argument. Flame away. It just shows what an asshole you are.
Only to the bullheaded and/or stupid who are too proud and/or stupid to admit when they're wrong...

If it is, then the spirit world is within our universe. If the spirit world is within our universe, then it would interact with other parts of our universe. If it did, we would see some effect on the observable portions of our universe.

Show me how the spirit world affects the observable universe.

If it doesn't interact with the observable universe, then it is for all intents and purposes identical to something that doesnt exist. Therefore, it doesn't exist.
The other dimensions don't exactly interact with our universe either.