NationStates Jolt Archive

I notice that in the Patriotism thread, many people think that patriotism is nationalism. Here's the diiference:

To me a patriot is someone who takes pride in their country even when it's about something as having the good grace to concede a point or rectify past wrongs. A nationalist however is someone who believes that a particular nation is superior in all forms and graces and are often unreasonable about their assumptions. Think: Hitler for Germany, Stalin for Russia, or dare i say Bush for the US.

Although you can argue about patriotism, nationalism is no doubt a bad thing.

Patriotism, love of one's country, is good.

Nationalism, the idea of "my country, right or wrong," is always bad

I tend to refer to nationalism as jigoism, which I suppose is a rather archaic word. But I agree-
Patriotism=good
Nationalism=bad

Which is why calling that damn thing The Patriot Act is just sick. Typical Orwellian double speak from the folks that brought us The Healthy Forest and Clear skies and Clean Water initiatves.

Other than the belief in God, nothing has, or ever will unite a people more than nationalism.

They're both bad. Nationalism is just worse.

Other than the belief in God, nothing has, or ever will unite a people more than nationalism.

I assume from your name that you are not joking. Has nazism been officially made an illegal organisation yet?

This reminds me of a friend of mine who is somewhat nationalistic. He believes that pretty much any product that is made in America is better then one made in another country. This is just stupid. If a product is affiliated with anything, it should be affiliated with the company who produces that product. The country doesn't have much to do with it.

It's ok to have pride in your country, as long as you realize that it can make mistakes (and does so very often).

If your a history freak like me... Then you whould know that both World war 1 and 2 were started because of french and german nationalism.
Nationalism starts wars and kills people, to bad.

i have no allegiance to my nation - and certainly not with the nation state that claims me. my allegiance lies with all of humanity.

If your a history freak like me... Then you whould know that both World war 1 and 2 were started because of french and german nationalism
I don't think that you have to be a histoy freak to know that.

Other than the belief in God, nothing has, or ever will unite a people more than nationalism.

Having read this post, this person's name and their location, I have one question. How has this person avoided being banned from these forums with the attitude he/she obviously has?

I was tempted to vote yes simply because of the Bush = Hitler bit, but no, based on the definition given in the first post.

Having read this post, this person's name and their location, I have one question. How has this person avoided being banned from these forums with the attitude he/she obviously has?

Probably because, although he holds controversial opinions, he is extremely skilled in his expression of them as to not be considered flaming, which means he's really good at it.

Nationalism is the basis for almost every (if not all) fascist regimes. Seeing that authoritarian governments are generally linked to war and genocide, I think it's pretty safe to says that nationalism is a dangerous thing.

Probably because, although he holds controversial opinions, he is extremely skilled in his expression of them as to not be considered flaming, which means he's really good at it.

Well then I wish he would reply to me attacking his controversial opinions. Does provoking Nazis still count as flamebait?

Keep in mind that the Nazis wouldn't have been stopped unless those who opposed him were also nationalists. Pure nationalism, having pride in your country, looking out for her best interests, and preserving you nation's boarders, language, and culture, is good, Nationalism that is abused by a tyrant or dictator is bad. That is the cause of WW1 and WW2, not simply being nationalist.

Keep in mind that the Nazis wouldn't have been stopped unless those who opposed him were also nationalism. Pure nationalism, having pride in your country, looking out for her best interests, and preserving you nation's boarders, language, and culture, is good,
That's patriotism. Patriotism is about all these things without declaring other nations and cultures less worthy than your own.

Well then I wish he would reply to me attacking his controversial opinions. Does provoking Nazis still count as flamebait?

Yes, it would, although with most of the General forum browsers being liberal, I doubt anyone would care.

Nationalism is not necessarily a bad thing. Actually, it is kinda like gasoline -- with just the right amount, you can get that giant SUV rollin'. Not enough and it won't go anywhere, too much and it explodes. :)

Yes, it would, although with most of the General forum browsers being liberal, I doubt anyone would care.

Would anyone who wasn't a nationalist themselves care? You don't have to be liberal to hate Nazis.

What I don't get about nationalists, is how they view their country as being some special kind of community. Thousands of years ago people thought anyone outside their tribe was inferior to them. A country is just another step in the gradual unification of humanity that has been going on since we became social animals. We shouldn't stop and say we don't want to unify any more.

What we need is for Mars or some other alien force to attack so we can unify as a planet.

Let's just hope their computers are apple compatable so we can blow them up.

Nationalism and Ignorance mean the same thing I think.. :p

Nationalism and Ignorance mean the same thing I think.. :p

Nah, that is an insult to ignorant people.

Your all oversimplifying nationalism. Nationalism being one of man's most important historicle ideologies, it deserves some credit, like it or not.

As I see it there are two kinds of patriotism and nationalism. The first kind of patriotism/nationalism, is the love of ones country as it is, for basic material reasons, like its army, its policy, and whole lot of ect.

The second is a love beyound materialism, where the patriot/nationalist feels his country should be great, or is great deep down but not on the surface. This is how I feel anyway. The only real differance between a patriot and a nationalist in this sence is how strongly they feel about which ever of the two categories they exist in.

For example, a patriot of the first kind, who loves his country for what it is would probobly be good. He would lead a constructive life style, and most likely his feelings will reflect that his country is good. A nationalist of the first kind would probobly be bad. He would be a jingoist, beligerant, so sure of his country that nothing else matters. This nationalist is one found only as a tool for bad leaders.

But, for the second kind the situation is reversed. A patriot of the second kind is most likely bad. Not because of what he does, but because of what he doesn't do. Being a member of the second variaty of patriot/nationalist means you understand the state of your country as being bad. Thus you can either be a patriot, who knows but lacks the spirit to act, and is a traitor, or you can be a nationalist, who has the spirit and will act to save his country.

So, while all Fascists were nationalists, its plain to see they came from variaty number two. It is evident in a Fascist quote that they desire to make great the nation, not that they think the nation is allready great. "We want to make our land fit for heroes to live in". Good day to you all.

So, while all Fascists were nationalists, its plain to see they came from variaty number two. It is evident in a Fascist quote that they desire to make great the nation, not that they think the nation is allready great. "We want to make our land fit for heroes to live in". Good day to you all.
Yeah but first the fascists who gained power in their country didn't do so much good for their country and instead became nationalists of what you call "variaty number one".
Second, they mainly tried to make their nation great by crushing other nations, which I don't think is a very honourable way to help your country.

You know what's really odd? Nationalism was hailed as the way to keep all the new nations carved out of the Austrian Empire independent and happy after WWI...

I'm not saying nationalism is good, I'm just mentioning how it's meaning has changed.

Yeah but first the fascists who gained power in their country didn't do so much good for their country and instead became nationalists of what you call "variaty number one".
Second, they mainly tried to make their nation great by crushing other nations, which I don't think is a very honourable way to help your country.

Eventualy they did (and I'm talking about the Italians, not the Germans, who were not realy Fascist) become more into the first variaty, thanks to some unfortunate circumstances, and Hitler's influence on Mussolini. Mainly the fact that the Italian's believed their propaganda too much was what caused their change from 2nd to 1st variaty, but not before they did much good. Mussolini was famous for "Making the trains run on time" ect. He modernized Italy, drained swamps, also ect. The Fascist policy of empire building was theorized as a way to extend the state to benifet both assimilator and assimilated, but could never be carried out be a nationalist of the first variaty.

Nationalism is blind. Worshiping a country????? Yeah, right(sarcasm)

Nationalism and the fear of it, were a leading cause of WWI. Patriotism is good as long as it isn't blind.

I think nationalism is Good if it's not the result of a violent dictatorship... or something... if all the goverment does is NOT privatize everything there is... and if it put higher taxes on foreign goods than on national ones... then it would be not good, but Great.

I assume from your name that you are not joking. Has nazism been officially made an illegal organisation yet?
It depends on where he is. In Germany and Austria, I think it is illegal to display swatstikas. In America I don't think it is. BTW Nazism is an ideology, not an organisation. Neo-Nazi organisations are not illegal in most places.

Having read this post, this person's name and their location, I have one question. How has this person avoided being banned from these forums with the attitude he/she obviously has?
Well, THJ does not flame despite his very controversial views. I don't think that people get banned from this place simply for being Nazis.

nazism is a belief...
I believe it is wrong...You cannot ban someone from the forum just because he/she is a Nazi. Its liking banning you for your beliefs.

I have made an observation that most of the anti-nationalists and pro-internationalists are from Europe. My theory is that it is because the only power they have left is through the EU and the UN, not in their own nations. Granted, one could argue that it is because they have had a first hand experiance to what they believe to be effects of nationalism. (WW1, WW2, etc. . .) Just and observation.

Nationalism is generally bad, as it elevates society to an extreme position, and subjects the human to a form of slavery. In fascists societies, which tend to be ultra nationalist, the individual is all but destroyed for the sake of society.

Actualy, under Fascism the individual is not destroyed, but in effect his efforts are multiplied. When a nation is in unity and pursuing the same goals, the more people contributing, the more proggress is made. Thus a Fascist state, and indeed all countries in the end, are both dependant on the individual, and only as good as the quality of its individuals. Mussolini said it like this, though I am not quoting. Say that during a battle a deadly fortress must be taken. If only one soldier attacks it he will surley be killed. If all the soldiers attack it but not in an organized fashion, they will still probobly be killed. But if they advance coordinated and organized they will have a much better chance at taking the fort. Fascism is then the rallying point that inspires the nation and leads it to its goal, whatever that may be. If you read the Fascist doctrine, which is very illuminating, you would see Fascism places a heavy emphises on the individual. Fascism does not want "Abstract Dummies of liberalism" serving the state, but dynamic and intelligent people. It's a good read.

I hope you guys know that nationalism was the primary cause of WW1 and 2, children were brought up in europe to think of their neighbours as enemies. Why is it that all countries do these days is think about their own selfish needs, what about the global community? But on the note of nationalism I would say that the US's overtly obcessive patriotism borders on extreme nationalism which in itself borders on imperialism and facism. It's alright liking your country but most of the nationalistic citizens across the world wouldn't know many of their countries policies so what's to be proud of.

WOW! my country is better than your cause I was born there!
(cough)blind(cough) :rolleyes:

So when Bush speaks to Americans (us against them), is he talking to Nationalists, Christian Fundamentalists or Patriots?

And where is the border between these?


I think, Nationalists have an inbuilt inferiority complex. Germany after Versailles and China after western occupation.
Fear is another factor. Fear of anything that is different, any stranger who might want to harm you.

So many people point out that the Nazis were nationalists to attempt to make the point that nationalism is wrong or bad, do these people not realise that the allies who defeated the facists in WWII were also nationalistsic to some extent. If there were no nationalist sentimate outside of the facist regimes wouldn't WWII have ended with a bloodless world conquest by to Nazis?

nationalism = stupid narrow minded = bad.
patriotism = stupid narrow minded = bad.

There is just one people.

nationalism = stupid narrow minded = bad.
patriotism = stupid narrow minded = bad.

There is just one people.


Homo sapiens sapiens.

"What did you call me?!"

Nationalism= Bad.
Internationalism= Good.

Orwell's essay on Nationlism is by far one of the best (referenced in the other thread on patriotism).

By "nationalism" I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled "good" or "bad." But secondly -- and this is much more important -- I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests.

The very concept of a "nation" requires a logical failing - as, paraphrasing Nietzsche, any grouping of people is faulty because it demands that you ignore vast differences in preference for a randomly determined commonality. People in North Dakota have more in common with Canadians from Winnipeg than they do with Miami, Floridians. What makes North Dakota part of the imagined community (Benedict Anderson) it shares with Florida? Lines arbitrarily drawn on a piece of paper. How can anyone be "proud" of that?

In short nationalism is the idea that an ethnic group should have its own state. Nationalism can be both good and bad. As with things like sex, TV and food, the difference between good and bad is how you do it. I won't mention the bad parts of nationalism, since others here have done it already. The thing is that without nationalism, we wouldn't have any nation states. Nationalism is the glue that holds a nation together, the magic ingredient that makes people pay their taxes and vote for their politicians. Nationalism is what makes you think in terms of "us" and "them". And most importantly you can never, ever be a patriot without first being a nationalist! It's just like you can't being a devout christian without being religious. So, a nationalist can celebrate his national holiday, cheer when the national soccer team wins the World Cup, and wear a flag pin his jacket. He can also march around in uniform and beat up people, wave his right arm and start wars. Nationalism isn't a bad thing in itself, but it can be used for bad purposes, just like religion. Sure, we wouldn't have had the world wars if it weren't for nationalism, but would we hav had peace instead? Not likely!

However one must consider the future need for nationalism. I don't see a very big need for nationalism in the future or even today. We don't need nation states like we did a few centuries ago. But nationalism has served us well in the past. It was a great idea in the 19th century, but today, we must look for a substitute, like internationalism, for example! The point is you can't stand around in the street screaming for the freedom of Tibet and at the same time say no to nationalism.

The point is you can't stand around in the street screaming for the freedom of Tibet and at the same time say no to nationalism.It is not about Tibet actually, it is more about the massacres in Tibet.
You can say no to mass-killing and say no to nationalism at the same time. Nationalism is not freedom.

nationalism to a certain level is good. Sort of Extreme Nationalism is bad.

Yes, you can argue that Tibetans shouldn't be massacred without being a nationalist, but you can't argue for the freedom of Tibet as a state without acknowledging nationalism as an ideology. And that makes you a nationalist. A good one, maybe, but still a nationalist.

Because a nationalist is a person who sees a purpose in having nation states. But then again, most ordinary people haven't studied political science and therefore use the term in another sense. I would also say that nationalism, in the sense that "my nation is better than yours", is bad. But that's not nationalism the way I've learned in life and at the university.

Patriotism (in the sense that I love my nation), however, that's as fishy as the form of nationalism i just described. I couldn't imagine loving my nation and all the ideas and people in it. I can say that I'm proud of having the privilege to live in a beautiful country with a history that isn't very bloody and a fair democratic welfare system. But I'd never call myself a patriot.

[bump]

Can someone explain the theory behind "national pride?" I mean, is it really loving a certain country purely because you were born in it/live in it? I just don't understand how... why... ugh. :confused:

Then again, i do live in england. :( Not my favourite place to be.

Nationalism is good. Makes the people fanatical.. Increases production in the country and they make gr8 soldiers.

Then again, i do live in england. :( Not my favourite place to be.

Wanna swap?

I am an American nationalist personally. I believe that one should work towards the benifit on his/her own country more and less for the benifit of other counties. I believe that we need to follow the documents and principals that founded the country, such as the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and in a few cases, the Bible. (GASP) I am also a firm believer in "Charity starts at home." Does this meen that I want to say to hell with the rest of the world and have the US do whatever all the time? No. Notice that I said "the rest of the world" and not the UN. I don't find the UN to be an accurate respresentation of the world's actuall views. (I'm not going to argue that here, however) Anyways, just because I am a nationalist doesn't meen that I want to paint a swastica on my forehead, invade neigboring countries, and heard minorities into gas chambers. I personally believe nationalism can work in the US better than it did in Germany. Why? Because the US represents a diverse population, thus avoiding such cliches as "Aryan Supremecy" and others, which are bi-products of Ethnic Nationalism.

I am an American nationalist personally. I believe that one should work towards the benifit on his/her own country more and less for the benifit of other counties.

Why your country? Why not your state or your town? Why not your continent? As I say so often to nationalists, countries are simply a link in the chain of gradual unification that has been going on for thousands of years. As I am British, I will take Britain as an example. First of all in Britain there were dozens of tribes, all of which hated the others. Then, by the dark ages these had merged into several kindoms, all of which hated the others, but people from different towns (the equivilent of tribes) didn't hate one another any more, not as long as they were from the same kindom. Then the kindoms grouped together into the countires of England, Wales, Scottland and Ireland, and again the same story, the old hatreds and patriotisms are forgotten in favour of being patriotic the to the new, bigger group. Now we're all British and we all moan about the French and the Germans, and whatever other countries we decide we don't like. Eventually we will finally unify completly with Europe and we'll hate people from the other continents and then maybe at last everyone will be able to be patriotic about Earth, and then we'll have to find aliens to hate.
My point is that a country is the major group at the moment but it hasn't been in the past and it won't be in the future. Wouldn't it be simpler if we stopped being nationalist and patriotic altogether, and then we don't need to hate anyone.

You need to take pride in where you live. I think of my country as my child. I raise it, along with millions of other citizens, into something I can be proud of. This includes correcting it when its wrong and doing my best to improve it. The "right or wrong" mentality is incorrect. It's my country, right or wrong, but that does not mean that I support it when its wrong. I try to make it see the right path.

At least thats the way I see it.

In short nationalism is the idea that an ethnic group should have its own state.

So, basically, zionism?

Wow. Nationalism is even more illogical and backwards than I thought.

I wonder where mutt-land is...

--

Suffice to say, I find no logic in nationalism. I support people who agree with me on the most important things, and don't give a damn about what else they do or believe in. If you're someone I agree with, all the way over in China or somesuch, I care about you just as much as I care about my next door neighbor with the same mentality.

Nationalism suggests, after all, you'd sooner support the criminals in your nation than the likeminds a five minute drive over your borders.

Why your country? Why not your state or your town? Why not your continent? As I say so often to nationalists, countries are simply a link in the chain of gradual unification that has been going on for thousands of years. As I am British, I will take Britain as an example. First of all in Britain there were dozens of tribes, all of which hated the others. Then, by the dark ages these had merged into several kindoms, all of which hated the others, but people from different towns (the equivilent of tribes) didn't hate one another any more, not as long as they were from the same kindom. Then the kindoms grouped together into the countires of England, Wales, Scottland and Ireland, and again the same story, the old hatreds and patriotisms are forgotten in favour of being patriotic the to the new, bigger group. Now we're all British and we all moan about the French and the Germans, and whatever other countries we decide we don't like. Eventually we will finally unify completly with Europe and we'll hate people from the other continents and then maybe at last everyone will be able to be patriotic about Earth, and then we'll have to find aliens to hate.
My point is that a country is the major group at the moment but it hasn't been in the past and it won't be in the future. Wouldn't it be simpler if we stopped being nationalist and patriotic altogether, and then we don't need to hate anyone.

*Sigh*
Nationalism does not meen that you must hate other countries. Read more than the first line next time.

Anyways, the reason that I don't like internationalism is because it is at a much greater scale. What if something like the Nazi party emerged as the leaders of the entire world? There wouldn't be anything to fight it. When Hitler ruled Germany, there was still many more countries to stand against him. Besides, internationalism can't really work because, well let's face it, not all countries are equall. Some countries are larger, stronger, richer, etc. . . than others. So unless we redraw the entire world map so all nations are equall, which I don't see happening anytime soon, it wont work.

At first nationalism may seem to have no logic or reason what so ever, and indeed the spiritual desire for it, is unexplainable to an internationalist. I believe that America is special, it is differant, in both good and bad ways, from all other lands. Every culture deserves a nation is my philosophy, but only those who fight to claim a nation as there own truly deserve it. There is no direct logic to that, it is an emotion. But think, internationalists have no braging rights now. Not when internationalism is failing all over the world. Even the name suggests a flaw in it. The word internationalism will always prevent the ideals it supports from being real, becuase it implies that nations are real right in the name. True internationalism comes only when there is one world state, with no trace of past borders. This society represents the failure of internationalism. Just look around. Nationalism however has the potential to actualy accomplish far more. Through it a people can create for themselves a purchasing power, enabling them to consume what they produce, ending all logical need for war. True cooperation among nations will only come when it is not done at the expense of the worlds unique culture, that internationalism is destroying.
Heres my site if anyone wants a better explanation

www.freewebs.com/fascirevolutionary

Nationalism and the fear of it, were a leading cause of WWI. Patriotism is good as long as it isn't blind.

but it usually is

If your a history freak like me... Then you whould know that both World war 1 and 2 were started because of french and german nationalism.
Nationalism starts wars and kills people, to bad.

history freak, or vaguely educated?