NationStates Jolt Archive

The Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, allegedly called a (Jewish) reporter from the Evening Standard 'German war criminal' and a 'concentration camp guard', which the newspaper has claimed to have caught on tape. The Mayor has held steadfast and refused to apologise over his remarks, his only public comments since the incident being

"Absolutely not. If he isn't happy he shouldn't be working for a paper like that. You can't expect to work for the Daily Mail group and have the rest of society treat with you respect as a useful member of society, because you are not."

He is going to be subject to a public investigation, as the Board of Deputies of British Jews consider refering him to the Standards Board for England and Wales, and the Conservatives have said they will refer him if the Board of Deputies of British Jews do not.

MPs from across the board of UK politics have condemed the Mayor for his remarks. However, yesterday, members of the Labour party defended the Mayor. In a statement they said: "To describe Ken as anti-Semitic is plain daft. You only had to be present at City Hall on Holocaust Memorial Day to witness his views about the suffering of the Jewish community."

Transcript of Tape:
Oliver Finegold Mr Livingstone, Evening Standard. How did tonight go?

Ken Livingstone How awful for you. Have you thought of having treatment?

OF How did tonight go?

KL Have you thought of having treatment?

OF Was it a good party? What does it mean for you?

KL What did you do before? Were you a German war criminal?

OF No, I'm Jewish, I wasn't a German war criminal and I'm actually quite offended by that. So, how did tonight go?

KL Arr right, well you might be [Jewish], but actually you are just like a concentration camp guard, you are just doing it because you are paid to, aren't you?

OF Great, I have you on record for that. So, how was tonight?

KL It's nothing to do with you because your paper is a load of scumbags and reactionary bigots.

OF I'm a journalist and I'm doing my job. I'm only asking for a comment.

KL Well, work for a paper that doesn't have a record of supporting fascism.

Interesting but it hardly makes him a facist and he made the initial comment without realising he was Jewish. I think that hardly makes him facist.

It's spelt faScist, not facist. He has no hatred of faces. Anyway, fascism doesn't even have anti-semitism built into it, that's Nazism. If "Red Ken" were a fascist then he would support the idea of a strongly authoritarian government which, as we all know, he doesn't. Therefore he is neither a fascist or a facist.
Regarding this notion of him being anti-semitic I think most people with half a brain can see that this is just a smear campaign against the Labour party coming from far-right newspapers. The comment clearly isn't directed against the man becuase he's Jewish, but because the paper he works for is a piece of shit.

Arguably a wanker, but not, I think, a fascist...

An yes, whoops, my mistake. I'm just tired and not feeling too well after my rabies vaccination yesterday.

Straigtening my facts:
1) Ken said that the Daily Mail Group (this includes the Evening Standard) has supported fascism
2) Yes, fascism is spelt with an extra 's'. :P
3) Ken was making a reference that the reporter was akin to a Nazi
4) People are claiming that Ken is anti-semitic
5) Ken obeyed orders from Moscow to plant flowers in the park in the 80s.

Personally I'm just considering whether it's a justified remark or not, Jewish reporter or no.

Personally I'm just considering whether it's a justified remark or not, Jewish reporter or no.

I don’t think it is. Definitely not from a politician anyway. Reminds me of Mark Latham calling a female journalist a ‘skanky ho’...

Given its the Mail I thought his comments were rather tame....

Given its the Mail I thought his comments were rather tame....

Yeah. Still, he would have been better off saying "f*ck you" and walking away...

Yeah. Still, he would have been better off saying "f*ck you" and walking away...

nah....you gotta have a better go than just saying fuck you....you gotta point out the inherent nastyness of the Mail.

It's rather true when referring to the Standard.

Fact is the Daily Mail does have a history of supporting fascism, so Ken is right in saying that. In the 1930s the paper's owner, Lord Rothermere, wrote editorials in praise of Nazi Germany and urged Mail readers to go join the British Union of Fascists.

I've been to a United Against Fascism meeting where I heard Ken speaking, so trust me on this, he is not a fascist. He detests racism as much as anyone.

But he does have a funny way of expressing himself sometimes. Mix this with the absolute sh*t he has to put up with from the reactionary anti-Labour right-wing press and its no wonder he gets pissed off with Daily Mail journos.

Ken Livingstone is a fascist. The man's gone so far left he's disappeared off the scale and looped round to the right. Not only is he a rabid anti-semite (which he defends as being anti-zionist) he's chummy with Al-Qaradawi, a big honcho in the Islamic Nazi organisation The Muslim Brotherhood. Qaradawi openly states that he believes that gays, lesbians, immodest women and Jews should be murdered.

[edit] ... and as for him not being a racist... just because he pals up with some wife beating jihadis doesn't preclude him from being a racist. It makes him an opportunistic fascist.

Wait, the hack was from the Evening Standard? Oh - that's not quite the same as the Mail.

Ken Livingstone is a fascist. The man's gone so far left he's disappeared off the scale and looped round to the right. Not only is he a rabid anti-semite (which he defends as being anti-zionist) he's chummy with Al-Qaradawi, a big honcho in the Islamic Nazi organisation The Muslim Brotherhood. Qaradawi openly states that he believes that gays, lesbians, immodest women and Jews should be murdered.

[edit] ... and as for him not being a racist... just because he pals up with some wife beating jihadis doesn't preclude him from being a racist. It makes him an opportunistic fascist.

Too bad the majority of Londoners support him then, huh?

Ken Livingstone is a fascist. The man's gone so far left he's disappeared off the scale and looped round to the right. Not only is he a rabid anti-semite (which he defends as being anti-zionist) he's chummy with Al-Qaradawi, a big honcho in the Islamic Nazi organisation The Muslim Brotherhood. Qaradawi openly states that he believes that gays, lesbians, immodest women and Jews should be murdered.

He's not "chummy" with him that's a lie.

He thinks that his views have been misrepresented in the press and actually thinks that Qaradawi is a moderate compared to other conservative Islamists.

Ok I think he's wrong on this too. But saying Ken's a fascist just exposes yourself as being slightly barmy too!

Wait, the hack was from the Evening Standard? Oh - that's not quite the same as the Mail.

Standard is a part of the Mail Group....and the Standard is not exactly a bastion of multicultralism

Standard is a part of the Mail Group....and the Standard is not exactly a bastion of multicultralism

True, but it's still not quite as bad as the Mail and the Express.

But saying Ken's a fascist just exposes yourself as being slightly barmy too!

The Muslim Brotherhood is a fascistic organisation, and Ken is a supporter of that organisation. If Ken is not a fascist, or does not support fascism, he wouldn't back them, would he?

And Myrth, are you old enough to vote yet?

The Muslim Brotherhood is a fascistic organisation, and Ken is a supporter of that organisation. If Ken is not a fascist, or does not support fascism, he wouldn't back them, would he?

And Myrth, are you old enough to vote yet?

In your opinion, it's a fascist organisation. So far you've offered nothing of substance to support this.

And yes. And I voted for Ken last round.

True, but it's still not quite as bad as the Mail and the Express.

I agree with re the Daily Express. Few papers are as virulent as the Express. But you know what you are getting with the Express. Fascism. Racism. Little Hitlerism.

What makes the Mail worse is that the hate is toned down enough so that it seems reasonable. Meaning that it makes it easier for more extreme points of view to become acceptable.

The Standard is a stable mate of the Mail and is a part of this process of acceptability. Which makes the Standard and the Mail more dangerous than the Express.

However I would not ban them.

Nah, I wouldn't ban them. But when the right-wing press, owned by a few rich reactionary old farts, is able to direct public opinion to such an extreme degree (convincing little old ladies everywhere that the country is being overrun by nasty asylum seekers who are trying to rape them or whatever) that the Labour Party has to appease their disgusting views (T.Blair going off before the 1997 to meet Murdoch and convince him he wasn't actually going to be very left-wing, so The Sun can urge its readers to vote Labour)...well its sad really.

The Muslim Brotherhood is a fascistic organisation, and Ken is a supporter of that organisation. If Ken is not a fascist, or does not support fascism, he wouldn't back them, would he?

And Myrth, are you old enough to vote yet?

How is the Muslim Brotherhood a fascistic organisation? I don't think they advocate the integration of the means of production and the State do they?

They are extreme Theocratists....

Nah, I wouldn't ban them. But when the right-wing press, owned by a few rich reactionary old farts, is able to direct public opinion to such an extreme degree (convincing little old ladies everywhere that the country is being overrun by nasty asylum seekers who are trying to rape them or whatever) that the Labour Party has to appease their disgusting views (T.Blair going off before the 1997 to meet Murdoch and convince him he wasn't actually going to be very left-wing, so The Sun can urge its readers to vote Labour)...well its sad really.

Welcome to politics UK style

In your opinion, it's a fascist organisation. So far you've offered nothing of substance to support this.

And yes. And I voted for Ken last round.

In the 1920's there was a young Egyptian named al Bana. And al Bana formed this nationalist group called the Muslim Brotherhood. Al Bana was a devout admirer of Adolph Hitler and wrote to him frequently. So persistent was he in his admiration of the new Nazi Party that in the 1930's, al-Bana and the Muslim Brotherhood became a secret arm of Nazi intelligence.

The Arab Nazis had much in common with the new Nazi doctrines. They hated Jews; they hated democracy; and they hated the Western culture. It became the official policy of the Third Reich to secretly develop the Muslim Brotherhood as the fifth Parliament, an army inside Egypt.

When war broke out, the Muslim Brotherhood promised in writing that they would rise up and help General Rommell and make sure that no English or American soldier was left alive in Cairo or Alexandria.

The Muslim Brotherhood began to expand in scope and influence during World War II. They even had a Palestinian section headed by the grand Mufti of Jerusalem, one of the great bigots of all time. Here, too, was a man -- The grand Mufti of Jerusalem was the Muslim Brotherhood representative for Palestine. These were undoubtedly Arab Nazis. The Grand Mufti, for example, went to Germany during the war and helped recruit an international SS division of Arab Nazis. They based it in Croatia and called it the “Handjar” Muslim Division, but it was to become the core of Hitler's new army of Arab fascists that would conquer the Arab peninsula from then on to Africa -- grand dreams.

At the end of World War II, the Muslim Brotherhood was wanted for war crimes. Their German intelligence handlers were captured in Cairo. The whole net was rolled up by the British Secret Service. Then a horrible thing happened.

Instead of prosecuting the Nazis -- the Muslim Brotherhood -- the British government hired them. They brought all the fugitive Nazi war criminals of Arab and Muslim descent into Egypt, and for three years they were trained on a special mission. The British Secret Service wanted to use the fascists of the Muslim Brotherhood to strike down the infant state of Israel in 1948. Only a few people in the Mossad know this, but many of the members of the Arab Armies and terrorist groups that tried to strangle the infant State of Israel were the Arab Nazis of the Muslim Brotherhood.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15344

Well, there you are - not only a fascist organisation but a specifically Nazi one.

No need to apologise ;)

How is the Muslim Brotherhood a fascistic organisation? I don't think they advocate the integration of the means of production and the State do they?

They are extreme Theocratists....

yeah, portraying anyone we don't like the look of as 'fascist' is just lazy politics and actually dilutes the genuine danger that ideology represents.

How is the Muslim Brotherhood a fascistic organisation? I don't think they advocate the integration of the means of production and the State do they?

Wrongo! They do, and there are examples across the Arab world of their influence.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15344

Well, there you are - not only a fascist organisation but a specifically Nazi one.

No need to apologise ;)

By John Loftus
Jewish Community News | October 4, 2004

Hardly what I'd consider a reliable source.

I believe Ken Livingstone did not know the reporter was Jewish from what I can see from the transcript, and called the reporter a German Concentration Camp Guard because he was relating him to a person who works for a right wing group, and who was 'only doing his job' instead of qustioning the group's motives.

The Daily Mail, whose owners have a finger in The Evening Standard, in the 30's famously put the headline 'Hoorah For The Blackshirts!' on it's font page, in reference to Mussolini.

This is what I think Ken is referring to amongst other things.

It's quite interesting this incident has occured, because only recently my Great Uncle, a WWII Vet, told me that he would never buy 'The Daily Mail' because of it's support for Fascists and Nazis in the war.

Pray tell what, exactly, is wrong with being a fascist? It is a political ideology akin to any other and thusly deserves a go, just as any other political standpoint. Why the hell is this poor bastard being roasted for being allegedly *gasp* a fascist? I don't at all condone the anti-semitism in manner; that is truly wrong. However, it is bigoted to believe this guy should be burned at the stake for simply believing one political context.

Also, fascism DOES NOT equate to nazism. There is a keen difference between the ideoligies of both political standpoints. Facism is of the belief that there should be total government control, mostly involving a dictatorship of some form. Nazism gives rise to the belief of one eternally divine race (in Hitler's incarnation, the white person's race) that should hold prevelance above any other. Do not interlink the two, because they ARE NOT THE SAME despite the recurring want of a dictatorship.

Also, fascism DOES NOT equate to nazism. There is a keen difference between the ideoligies of both political standpoints. Facism is of the belief that there should be total government control, mostly involving a dictatorship of some form.

And that dictatorship was usually not very nice = Mussolini

Pray tell what, exactly, is wrong with being a fascist? It is a political ideology akin to any other and thusly deserves a go, just as any other political standpoint. Why the hell is this poor bastard being roasted for being allegedly *gasp* a fascist? I don't at all condone the anti-semitism in manner; that is truly wrong. However, it is bigoted to believe this guy should be burned at the stake for simply believing one political context.

Also, fascism DOES NOT equate to nazism. There is a keen difference between the ideoligies of both political standpoints. Facism is of the belief that there should be total government control, mostly involving a dictatorship of some form. Nazism gives rise to the belief of one eternally divine race (in Hitler's incarnation, the white person's race) that should hold prevelance above any other. Do not interlink the two, because they ARE NOT THE SAME despite the recurring want of a dictatorship.

Fascism (please, if you're going to defend an ideology that has murdered millions of human beings please at least get the spelling right) is radical authoritarian conservatism. The dictatorship element of this is f***ing unsavoury to say the least.

Nazism was fascist. To argue otherwise is being purely pedantic. Fascism has always thrived on racism, especially anti-semitism...the Nazi 'final solution' was simply the logical result of fascist prejudice.

No platform for fascism. Ever.

Stalinism was also akin to fascism, before anyone inevitably starts harping on about Socialists being fascists. Stalinism <-> Socialism. Two different idealogies.

Given the right wing views of The Mail and The Standard, that The Mail group is trying to force a stranglehold on London newspapers and the fact that the mayor is one of the most available politicians in the UK and this reporter decided to doorstep him after a private party, I think the reporter got everything he deserved.

Ken Livingstone is not fascist. He just says a lot of things that offend people.

Fascism (please, if you're going to defend an ideology that has murdered millions of human beings please at least get the spelling right) is radical authoritarian conservatism. The dictatorship element of this is f***ing unsavoury to say the least.

Nazism was fascist. To argue otherwise is being purely pedantic. Fascism has always thrived on racism, especially anti-semitism...the Nazi 'final solution' was simply the logical result of fascist prejudice.

No platform for fascism. Ever.

Facism is choosing the best of the population to be the leaders based on merit. It does not believe people should be able to elect the leaders as they will always pick populist idiots and not true leaders.

So Red Ken is a facist now - bet he still wins by a landslide.

Are you trying to suggest that 'Red' Ken Livingstone, a man thrown out of the labour party for being too radically left-wing, a staunch communist, has in fact been fooling us all and is actually Hitler in disguise? Ken's a commie.

Here we go again throwing that Political cussword 'fascist' around again.

Facism is choosing the best of the population to be the leaders based on merit. It does not believe people should be able to elect the leaders as they will always pick populist idiots and not true leaders.

Moron.

Who's going to decide on the definition of merit, or "the best" for that matter? These are subjective opinions.

The point about democracy is that it gives everyone - who is going to have the government representing them - a voice in choosing that government.

Fascism is a scumbag ideology.

Fascism (please, if you're going to defend an ideology that has murdered millions of human beings please at least get the spelling right) is radical authoritarian conservatism. The dictatorship element of this is f***ing unsavoury to say the least.

Nazism was fascist. To argue otherwise is being purely pedantic. Fascism has always thrived on racism, especially anti-semitism...the Nazi 'final solution' was simply the logical result of fascist prejudice.

No platform for fascism. Ever.And here we go yet again, confusing Fascism with Nazism. Perhaps someone should write a thread on Fascism who actually knows what Fascism is and then make it a sticky thread.
So idiots like Jacko here dont keep mixing ideologies up.

Ken is crazed commie bastard, not a fascist. Londoners have to dump him and find a more suitable and sane mayor.

And here we go yet again, confusing Fascism with Nazism. Perhaps someone should write a thread on Fascism who actually knows what Fascism is and then make it a sticky thread.
So idiots like Jacko here dont keep mixing ideologies up.

People who like to distinguish between fascism and Nazism are either just annoying attention-seeking pedants or right-wing nutcases who have trouble admitting they share the same view on the world as A.Hitler and co.

Not a facist, I don't think you get a nickname like Red Ken if you're a facist.

I recon it must have been all those dodgey Muslim clerics who he has visit him, the ones who want to destroy homosexuals and jews.

I think he's lost the plot.

Meaning that it makes it easier for more extreme points of view to become acceptable.

So? Not your place to decide what is "acceptable" for everybody else to read.

I believe Ken Livingstone did not know the reporter was Jewish

I believe that is questionable, I think it was the Independent I was reading where it is alleged he said after finding out.

What was the reporter doing following Ken to a private party? It's the kind of thing you expect the paparazzi to do, not a political correspondent. They were probably waiting for the opportunity to make up another story like that classic 'he pushed his pregnant girlfriend down the stairs' they had a couple of years ago. No wonder the man has a short temper with them; I think anyone in his position would.

People who like to distinguish between fascism and Nazism are either just annoying attention-seeking pedants or right-wing nutcases who have trouble admitting they share the same view on the world as A.Hitler and co.

Like communism and stalinism being different etc?

What was the reporter doing following Ken to a private party? It's the kind of thing you expect the paparazzi to do, not a political correspondent. They were probably waiting for the opportunity to make up another story like that classic 'he pushed his pregnant girlfriend down the stairs' they had a couple of years ago. No wonder the man has a short temper with them; I think anyone in his position would.

Yeh like Ron Atkinson does with crap football players :P. . .

The media always hounds people because we have a "right to know". He's the mayor of London for f*** sake what does he expect? Also why should he be an acception to these unwritten rules of conduct? If it was a rightwing politician that would have been it, but he's a commie so a different story.

Well, it's quite easy to see how Stalinism doesn't have anything to do with the writings of Karl Marx. I'm sure we don't need to go into this argument again. It would be nice for one of these non-Nazi apologists for fascism to explain their case.

Yeh like Ron Atkinson does with crap football players :P. . .

The media always hounds people because we have a "right to know". He's the mayor of London for f*** sake what does he expect? Also why should he be an acception to these unwritten rules of conduct? If it was a rightwing politician that would have been it, but he's a commie so a different story.

Ok it goes with the job - I'll admit that. Although I don't think we should accept that whilst politicians are accountable and under constant public scrutiny the press isn't.

I have a friend who looks like ken livingstone and i also stood on ken livingstons toe when i was getting on the tube down to canary wharf!!!

People who like to distinguish between fascism and Nazism are either just annoying attention-seeking pedants or right-wing nutcases who have trouble admitting they share the same view on the world as A.Hitler and co.
Ah, so nice of you to define our Ideologies for us. See because I assumed that authoritarian societies with a merger of nationwide unions is not anymore inherently anti-semitic then any other one. But since your so loving of boxing people into categories, I'm sure you believe socialists are all Stalinist as well.

Well, it's quite easy to see how Stalinism doesn't have anything to do with the writings of Karl Marx. I'm sure we don't need to go into this argument again. It would be nice for one of these non-Nazi apologists for fascism to explain their case.
Its simple, racism has never been, and never should be, a part of Fascism. Saying that it is neccesary is like saying slavery is an essential part of democracy, or Stalinism an essential part of socialism. Its painting gross generalizations and demonozing groups, the same tactic the Nazis themselves use. YAY IRONY!
If you had actually looked into real fascism you would recognize
A) Most true fascist parties today seek the outlaw of hate groups such as the Klan and Nazis
B) Many members of the American Fascist Party are Jewish
and C)Fascist states have suceeded without racism in italy for many years and in the Iberian.

Please define fascism.

I'll give my non-Marxist definition and we'll see what you think: Hostility to the Left and established conservatism, corporatist economics, cult of the leader, moral authoritarianism, and an inclination towards militarism. I believe you'll find Mussolini's fascism fits in with my definition, as does Hitler's.

So what's yours?

Ken was wrong to say what he said. wrong again not to apologise when he was informed that he had offended and wrong again for not looking back on this and then apologising.
Ken Livingstone was voted in for many reasons not least that he was the lesser of the evils offered.
He has many times throughout his career offended various groups. but time has caused the general public to forget. He has failed repeated to apologise for offending these groups.
My objection to him is simple, he repeatedly breaks promises, and wastes public money on pet private causes.
The event was held where? and with whose money? to celebrate what?
Chris Smith, for whom the event was held, spoke politely to the reporter, this event was paid for with pubic money and he understood that, Ken who must have also been aware of the funding, was irresponsibly rude.

Sack him, at least a different candidate might try to be polite.

So? Not your place to decide what is "acceptable" for everybody else to read.

Where do I say that its my place to decide??? Good grief! Please engage your brain before posting this kind of tripe!

Although I am against much of the right wing media I would not deny them a voice. Same with the radical left. I would not deny them a voice. Although both would like to silence mine.

Please define fascism.

I'll give my non-Marxist definition and we'll see what you think: Hostility to the Left and established conservatism, corporatist economics, cult of the leader, moral authoritarianism, and an inclination towards militarism. I believe you'll find Mussolini's fascism fits in with my definition, as does Hitler's.

So what's yours?
So you just admited that Racism has nothing to do with Fascism.