NationStates Jolt Archive

Well most of you have probably heard about the nuclear weapons N. Korea has claimed to have built. You also probably heard about Rice's statement saying that this was "an unfourtunate move by the N. Koreans that will only further isolate them from the international community.

What do you think. I personally beleive that it was an unfourtunate move but the N. Koreans really don't seem too upset about not being cozy with the international community.

I accidentally misread the title as 'Psychic are Politically Inept"...
:D

It's all a lie, tommorrow I'll wake up to January 2001 and Al Gore will be President...

So Condoleeza Rice thinks it is bad to isolate yourself from the international community through military might?

That's a switch.

So Condoleeza Rice thinks it is bad to isolate yourself from the international community through military might?

That's a switch.

Nuclear capability isn't military might, its a threat to all the surrounding nations based on the current regeime there.




It's all a lie, tommorrow I'll wake up to January 2001 and Al Gore will be President...


that would be so nice.

Nuclear capability isn't military might, its a threat to all the surrounding nations based on the current regeime there.

It is a display of unilateral power.

Its a big stick you dont have to walk very quietly to use.

It is a display of unilateral power.

Its still not military might. Also, any threat whether it be nuclear or conventional isolates nation. (ei, trade embargos and such.)

Its still not military might. Also, any threat whether it be nuclear or conventional isolates nation. (ei, trade embargos and such.)

First, explain why the most powerful weapon ever invented would not represent military might.

Second, how has the US not isolated itself?

Their nukes is just a standoff weapon.

So no one would dare invade them and overrun their regime.. now is whether Jong Il is crazy enough to use the nukes if his throne is put to the fire.

Looks like only the N.korean's can clean up their own mess.

Where's Kid Notorious when you need him...

So Condoleeza Rice thinks it is bad to isolate yourself from the international community through military might?

That's a switch.

That's hilarious! Somehow it doesn't suprise me that the administration is so oblivious to the irony.

Quite logical, actually. The United States practically (and literally) raped and brutalized their country during the Korean War, have a publically announced policy of regime change towards unfriendly regimes, and have several divisions posted on their border. What better way to stave off American aggression than a nuclear missile capable of hitting US positions and mainland cities?

"North Korea" by Bruce Cummings is a very good book on the subject, and goes in depth as to the psychology, goals, and origins of the DPRK regime. I think the evidence he presents clearly demonstrates that the Kim dynasty is neither insane, nor terribly ideologically rigid, despite their many, many other failings.

And no, I don't support North Korea. It has the dubious distinction of being the world's first and only "communist" monarchy and frankly it makes the rest of us look silly.

First, explain why the most powerful weapon ever invented would not represent military might.

Second, how has the US not isolated itself?

Nukes don't win wars. They cause fear. Also, since the US isn't a dictatorship so can be trusted with nukes just as many European powers can.

And no, I don't support North Korea. It has the dubious distinction of being the world's first and only "communist" monarchy and frankly it makes the rest of us look silly.
didn't laos has a communist prince in power at one point in time?

I don't think so....

Maybe you're thinking of the Cambodian monarch. He wasn't a communist, but he did very often refuse to cooperate with US imperial interests during the war and sometimes turned a blind eye towards NLF activities in his country.

Nukes don't win wars.They cause fear.
well that's true, but that can be said of any individual military component in modern warfare. nukes have only been used as a terror weapon(u.s. in ww2), but they certainly have been designed and planned for as tactical battlefield weapons by both sides during the cold war. a nation which was weaker in its other military assets could concievably defeat a stronger foe with the well applied use of tactical nukes against command and control centers and massed troops.

Also, since the US isn't a dictatorship so can be trusted with nukes just as many European powers can how can you say that the only nation to ever use nukes in war, and on civilian targets to boot, is somehow more trustworthy even the least well governed nation on earth.

I don't think so....

Maybe you're thinking of the Cambodian monarch. He wasn't a communist, but he did very often refuse to cooperate with US imperial interests during the war and sometimes turned a blind eye towards NLF activities in his country.
Souphanouvong, "red prince'' of Laos, dies aged 86
Reuter. 12 January, 1995
BANGKOK, Thailand (Reuter) - Souphanouvong, the "Red Prince'' of Laos who fought with Vietnamese and Lao guerrillas against the United States in Indochina and later became his country's president, died Monday, Laotian Radio reported. He was 86.

Souphanouvong became president after the communist victory in Indochina in 1975 and held the post until 1986 when he stepped down on health grounds.

Souphanouvong was known as the "Red Prince'' after leading the communist Pathet Lao for more than two decades of guerrilla warfare against the rightist government of his half-brother, Prince Souvanna Phouma.

The struggle between the two princes for control of the landlocked kingdom dominated the history of Laos from its independence from France in 1953 to the communist victory in December 1975.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/54/056.html

Huh, guess I was wrong. I don't know terribly much about the Laotian side of the conflict... I guess I didn't think of him as a "monarch" because he did not take a royal title of any sort and his rule wasn't hereditary - like North Koreas.

Huh, guess I was wrong. I don't know terribly much about the Laotian side of the conflict... I guess I didn't think of him as a "monarch" because he did not take a royal title of any sort and his rule wasn't hereditary - like North Koreas.
i realize the distinction, it just made me think of this guy(whose name i had forgotten) who was a communist leader and a hereditary prince. of course their was also the famous 19th century anarchist Prince Peter Kropotkin

Well most of you have probably heard about the nuclear weapons N. Korea has claimed to have built. You also probably heard about Rice's statement saying that this was "an unfourtunate move by the N. Koreans that will only further isolate them from the international community.

What do you think. I personally beleive that it was an unfourtunate move but the N. Koreans really don't seem too upset about not being cozy with the international community.
After what happened in Iraq, I cannot blame NK for developing nukes. I am sure no one likes this but I can understand.

After what happened in Iraq, I cannot blame NK for developing nukes. I am sure no one likes this but I can understand.

so what's this we're hearing about a massive secret construction project northeast of yellowknife hmmmm...

so what's this we're hearing about a massive secret construction project northeast of yellowknife hmmmm...
I haven't got a clue to what you are alluding to.

I haven't got a clue to what you are alluding to.
well how many breeder reactors does it take to provide power to the northwest territories, and what's up with those massive bunker complexes.

N. Korea- Psychotic are Politically Inept
I agree! The psychotic are politically inept! Just look at Pinky, and his total reliance on the Brain.

I agree! The psychotic are politically inept! Just look at Pinky, and his total reliance on the Brain.
but the brian would be nothing without pinkies outside of the box unconvention thinking, to compliment his excessively rational almost mechanical approach to problem solving. if he wasn't valuable why would snowball attempt to lure his services away.

Quite logical, actually. The United States practically (and literally) raped and brutalized their country during the Korean War, have a publically announced policy of regime change towards unfriendly regimes, and have several divisions posted on their border. What better way to stave off American aggression than a nuclear missile capable of hitting US positions and mainland cities?

American aggression??

By freeing South Korea from invasion?

North Korea's announcement of having nuclear weapons is simply a bargaining chip. They've been nuclear capable since before 1994!!


"North Korea" by Bruce Cummings is a very good book on the subject, and goes in depth as to the psychology, goals, and origins of the DPRK regime. I think the evidence he presents clearly demonstrates that the Kim dynasty is neither insane, nor terribly ideologically rigid, despite their many, many other failings.

Tell that to the Koreans forced into concentration camps all because they are starving!!

Amnesty International is concerned at recent reports that North Koreans held in some places of detention are given little or no food and that many die as a result of starvation and disease. Food shortages have led many people to leave their locality and seek food elsewhere in the country. Since 1997 the North Korean authorities are reported to have established makeshift detention centres to hold homeless people and those who have left their locality or tried to leave the country in order to seek food. Children are also reported to have been detained in such institutions. Most of these reports of abuses have been gathered from aid workers and foreign journalists who interviewed North Koreans in China. Although the information cannot be independently verified, the reports are consistent and suggest a pattern of human rights violations.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGASA240031999


And no, I don't support North Korea. It has the dubious distinction of being the world's first and only "communist" monarchy and frankly it makes the rest of us look silly.

North Korea is a dictatorship.........plain and simple. Their form of "communism" is just a facade.

Tell that to the Koreans forced into concentration camps all because they are starving!!North Korea is a dictatorship.........plain and simple. Their form of "communism" is just a facade.
Why are North Koreans starving?

*Canuckheaven* opens trap door......

From what I understand N. Korea enjoys being isolated. Foreign television and radio broadcasts are jammed. Every facet of a n. korean's life seems to be moderated by the government. They tell them where to live; you need a permit to even be allowed into the capitol. :(

Why are North Koreans starving?

*Canuckheaven* opens trap door......


So you're insinuating that the US is responsible??

Explain how they have the necessary funds to build nuclear reactors and yet can't find a way to feed their people. They can find the money to buy a centrifuge, and the technology to use it, yet can't feed their own people?

So placing them in concentration camps is an answer?

So you're insinuating that the US is responsible??

Explain how they have the necessary funds to build nuclear reactors and yet can't find a way to feed their people. They can find the money to buy a centrifuge, and the technology to use it, yet can't feed their own people?

So placing them in concentration camps is an answer?
I found this article most interesting:

Peace: The Real Solution to Famine in North Korea

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/nkorea/2003/0723peace.htm

Contrary to Bush's assertion, most experts agree that geopolitical and ecological events led to a one-two punch that resulted in the North Korean famine in the 1990s. The first major blow to North Korean food production was the collapse of the former Soviet Union and the socialist trading bloc, which eliminated North Korea's major trading partners. The end of subsidized oil from the former Soviet Union and China literally halted the tractors of North Korean farmers. The second blow-major droughts and floods that were the worst of the century-destroyed much of the harvest and forced Pyongyang to seek Western and Japanese aid.

The persistence of famine, however, is due to economic sanctions led by the U.S. and its refusal to end the 50-year Korean War. What is scarcely known about North Korea is that up until the 1980s, North Korea's agricultural and economic growth far outpaced South Korea. The World Health Organization and other United Nations agencies have praised their delivery of basic health services, noting that North Korean children were far better vaccinated than American children, and that life expectancy rates in North Korea surpassed that of South Korea.........

According to historians, the U.S. military's mission in the North, called the 'scorched earth policy,' exhibited unprecedented brutality far worse than in Vietnam. The U.S. Air Force's use of napalm destroyed irrigation dams and facilities that provided 75 percent of North Korea's food production. ........

Despite their efforts to remain food sovereign, and because of events beyond their control, North Korea could not sustain the stranglehold of the United States. For five decades, the U.S. has pursued military and economic policies that have held 22 million North Koreans hostage and threatened them with nuclear annihilation.

There is more to the story but this gives a broad outline of the plight of the people of North Korea. This is also one of the reasons that I think the US should enter into bi-lateral talks with NK. Peace is the answer and not more annihilation?

So you're insinuating that the US is responsible??

Explain how they have the necessary funds to build nuclear reactors and yet can't find a way to feed their people. They can find the money to buy a centrifuge, and the technology to use it, yet can't feed their own people?

So placing them in concentration camps is an answer?

You're being rather idealistic. The US is partially responsible, after all, it is the embargo's and trade barriers that we place on N. Korea that put them in this current position. You know as we as I do that we placed those there because N. Korea was a serious threat; but they ARE in place because of us!

N. Korea is run by a group that can only sustain their grip on power through the most draconian means; if they loosen their grip they'll probably be overthrown and excecuted, no? They are unstable, and were quite aggressive in the past, to this day they use less-than-savory policies in their government. We cannot possibly welcome them into the international community considering all they have done and are still doing.

Thus their options are limited the the hole the have dug themselves. Going for Nukes allows them a certain level of security that conventional forces might not bring. It allows them to maintain their hold on power, and thus their lives. We talking about desperate, dangerous men who are backed into a corner politically, militarily, economically.

They lash out like a wounded animal; they greedily take whatever is offered to them and give no thanks in return, thus they are a real threat; like a wounded animal backed into a corner. They feel that by being aggressive, they can wrest some concessions from us, by being loud and noisy they can prevent us from plotting in secret against them.

Their behavior is inexcusible, both to their own people and their neighbors, but you must understand WHY they are doing these things. They have little choice if they wish to keep their miserable little lives...

First, explain why the most powerful weapon ever invented would not represent military might.

Second, how has the US not isolated itself?
I can bet that you don't have to get out of your chair to reach something you own that was made in America. now go grab something frmn North Korea....
get it yet?

Their nukes is just a standoff weapon.

So no one would dare invade them and overrun their regime.. now is whether Jong Il is crazy enough to use the nukes if his throne is put to the fire.

Looks like only the N.korean's can clean up their own mess.
you don't know much about the 38th parallel or North Korea, do you.

Why are North Koreans starving?

*Canuckheaven* opens trap door......
because they don't have enough food!

I found this article most interesting:

Peace: The Real Solution to Famine in North Korea

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/nkorea/2003/0723peace.htm

Contrary to Bush's assertion, most experts agree that geopolitical and ecological events led to a one-two punch that resulted in the North Korean famine in the 1990s. The first major blow to North Korean food production was the collapse of the former Soviet Union and the socialist trading bloc, which eliminated North Korea's major trading partners. The end of subsidized oil from the former Soviet Union and China literally halted the tractors of North Korean farmers. The second blow-major droughts and floods that were the worst of the century-destroyed much of the harvest and forced Pyongyang to seek Western and Japanese aid.

The persistence of famine, however, is due to economic sanctions led by the U.S. and its refusal to end the 50-year Korean War. What is scarcely known about North Korea is that up until the 1980s, North Korea's agricultural and economic growth far outpaced South Korea. The World Health Organization and other United Nations agencies have praised their delivery of basic health services, noting that North Korean children were far better vaccinated than American children, and that life expectancy rates in North Korea surpassed that of South Korea.........

According to historians, the U.S. military's mission in the North, called the 'scorched earth policy,' exhibited unprecedented brutality far worse than in Vietnam. The U.S. Air Force's use of napalm destroyed irrigation dams and facilities that provided 75 percent of North Korea's food production. ........

Despite their efforts to remain food sovereign, and because of events beyond their control, North Korea could not sustain the stranglehold of the United States. For five decades, the U.S. has pursued military and economic policies that have held 22 million North Koreans hostage and threatened them with nuclear annihilation.

There is more to the story but this gives a broad outline of the plight of the people of North Korea. This is also one of the reasons that I think the US should enter into bi-lateral talks with NK. Peace is the answer and not more annihilation?
The US has been very clear about what it would take to end the economic war. North Korea has refused. The US has no reason to have any discussion with them. North Korea has every reason to comply with the US, but refuses. Their problems are their own. The US owes them no more than it owed the former USSR. Eventually even they saw the wisdom of cooperating.

Why are North Koreans starving?

Because the N. Korean government puts all its money into its military. There is very little money left over to feed the population after that.

Because the N. Korean government puts all its money into its military. There is very little money left over to feed the population after that.
Well....they could make the argument that they need to put money into their military, or they will be annihilated by the US.

Bush kinda put them on the defensive even more so since his election and referring NK as part of the Axis of Evil.

that would be so nice.

Waking up in 2001 with Al Gore as President would be the ultimate horror story or nightmare.

Its a big stick you dont have to walk very quietly to use.

In the hands of a psychotic dictator. :(

Nukes don't win wars.

Does WW II and Japan mean anything?

They don't (n. Korea) really care about international relations and i think we should have talked with Kim Jong II because if they did have nuclear weapons then everyones in danger we don't know what kind of psychotic stuff this guy could do. For all we know Bush and Rice mabye just got us screwed. :mad:

Well....they could make the argument that they need to put money into their military, or they will be annihilated by the US.

They've been putting money into their military longer than Bush has been president. Which is why they are suffering from famine.

North Korea is one of the world's most closed and isolated nations, with an economy in ruins and few political allies. In recent years the country has suffered from severe food shortages leading to famine in which tens of thousands, possibly millions, are reported to have died. The food shortages are believed to be the result of the government's economic policies, the loss of preferential trade with the former Soviet Union in the early 1990s and a series of natural disasters. Since 1995 North Korea has been the recipient of massive humanitarian aid from the international community. Amnesty International has expressed concern at reports that the North Korean authorities have distributed food unevenly, in a way which favours those who are economically active and loyal to the state. Many vulnerable groups, including homeless children and the elderly, are believed to have been effectively abandoned by the state.

For more than a decade, North Korea has suffered from a “silent famine” in which hundreds of thousands are reported to have died of starvation and related illness. One of the main reasons is that the North Korean government has imposed severe restrictions on independent monitors, food donors, international governmental organisations and NGOs.


Bush kinda put them on the defensive even more so since his election and referring NK as part of the Axis of Evil.

What was North Korea's excuse from 1987-1994? When they were pulling plutonium out of their nuclear reactors and reprocessing it into nuclear bombs?

What was North Korea's excuse from 1987-1994? When they were pulling plutonium out of their nuclear reactors and reprocessing it into nuclear bombs?
Were they doing that way back then? I thought that they had just recently developed the nuclear bomb?

Were they doing that way back then? I thought that they had just recently developed the nuclear bomb?

Hell yes and Billy Bob Clinton even gave them nuclear reactors. Supposedly the fuel for those reactors couldn't be turned into weapons grade material. :headbang:

Were they doing that way back then? I thought that they had just recently developed the nuclear bomb?

"In a roundtable discussion with the United States and China in Beijing on April 24, 2003, North Korean officials admitted for the first time that they possessed nuclear weapons. Furthermore, North Korean officials claim to have reprocessed spent fuel rods and have threatened to begin exporting nuclear materials unless the United States agrees to one-on-one talks with North Korea."

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/

"The following document is an untitled CIA estimate provided to Congress on November 19, 2002.

UNCLASSIFIED
Nuclear Weapons
The US has been concerned about North Korea's desire for nuclear weapons and has assessed since the early 1990s that the North has one or possibly two weapons using plutonium it produced prior to 1992."
www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dp...11902.html

"OCTOBER 21 1997

I am Choi Ju-hwal, I served in the Ministry of People's Army from
1968 to 1995. I defected from my post as Colonel and Chief of joint venture section of Yung-Seong Trading Company under the Ministry of People's Army. I would like to describe North Korean weapons of mass
destruction.

It is widely known in North Korea that North Korea produces, deploys and stockpiles two or three nuclear warheads and toxic material such as over 5,000 tons of toxic gas."
www.fas.org/spp/starwars/...21choi.htm

"Yongbyon Separation Plant - A plutonium separation facility ("Radiological Research Lab") was built at Yongbyon in 1987. This plant is capable of handling several hundreds of tons of fuel a year, enough to handle fuel from all of the reactors , some 33 lb. of plutonium annually.. The plutonium factory for the nuclear weapons is a single story building constructed on top the main plutonium reprocessing facility, deep underground. In 1993, N Korea completed a second plant, doubling its capacity for plutonium production."
www.kimsoft.com/korea/nk-nukes.htm

"In July 1990 The Washington Post reported that new satellite photographs showed the presence in Yongbyon of a structure which could possibly be used to separate plutonium from nuclear fuel."

www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dp...index.html

""The following document is an untitled CIA estimate provided to Congress on November 19, 2002.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UNCLASSIFIED
Nuclear Weapons
The US has been concerned about North Korea's desire for nuclear weapons and has assessed since the early 1990s that the North has one or possibly two weapons using plutonium it produced prior to 1992."
www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dp...11902.html

"OCTOBER 21 1997

I am Choi Ju-hwal, I served in the Ministry of People's Army from
1968 to 1995. I defected from my post as Colonel and Chief of joint venture section of Yung-Seong Trading Company under the Ministry of People's Army. I would like to describe North Korean weapons of mass
destruction.

It is widely known in North Korea that North Korea produces, deploys and stockpiles two or three nuclear warheads and toxic material such as over 5,000 tons of toxic gas."
www.fas.org/spp/starwars/...21choi.htm

"Yongbyon Separation Plant - A plutonium separation facility ("Radiological Research Lab") was built at Yongbyon in 1987. This plant is capable of handling several hundreds of tons of fuel a year, enough to handle fuel from all of the reactors , some 33 lb. of plutonium annually.. The plutonium factory for the nuclear weapons is a single story building constructed on top the main plutonium reprocessing facility, deep underground. In 1993, N Korea completed a second plant, doubling its capacity for plutonium production."
www.kimsoft.com/korea/nk-nukes.htm

"In July 1990 The Washington Post reported that new satellite photographs showed the presence in Yongbyon of a structure which could possibly be used to separate plutonium from nuclear fuel."

www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dp...index.html
Thanks for the info, but 3 of the links wouldn't open and one of them advocates a nuclear strike against NK:

by Kim Myong Chol

The Bush Administration, which calls itself champion of freedom and enemy No. 1 of tyranny, should not dither in calling the North Koreans' bluff by launching a surgical nuclear strike on the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK).

Just wonderful!!

Thanks for the info, but 3 of the links wouldn't open and one of them advocates a nuclear strike against NK:

by Kim Myong Chol

The Bush Administration, which calls itself champion of freedom and enemy No. 1 of tyranny, should not dither in calling the North Koreans' bluff by launching a surgical nuclear strike on the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK).

Just wonderful!!


Well, I'm not sure Mr. Chol has a firm grip on reality.....

"Kim Myong Chol, a North Korean writer living in Japan and reportedly with
close ties to the North Korean government....."


It sounds like he's trying to exacerbate the situation.....



Try this link, it's the main site.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/index.html

Another interesting piece of information....
"The construction of these new half-submerged type grain storage facilities began at the end of 1995, when foreign relief goods from international organizations and western countries were sent to North Korea right after floods damage crops. The construction of these grain storage facilities aroused suspicions that the 150,000 tons of rice provided to North Korea by the ROK Government and the 500,000 tons of rice provided by the Japanese Government were diverted for military purposes."
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/facility/food.htm

Well most of you have probably heard about the nuclear weapons N. Korea has claimed to have built. You also probably heard about Rice's statement saying that this was "an unfourtunate move by the N. Koreans that will only further isolate them from the international community.

What do you think. I personally beleive that it was an unfourtunate move but the N. Koreans really don't seem too upset about not being cozy with the international community.

They are both Psychotic and Politically Inept!

how can you say that the only nation to ever use nukes in war, and on civilian targets to boot, is somehow more trustworthy even the least well governed nation on earth.

What about the Firebombing of Tokyo that killed far more people than Hiroshima or Nasaki? Dresden? Berlin? Hamburg? London? Etc Etc Etc?

Those were all civilian targets too.

As to being trust worhty, we haven't used them since have we?

Why are North Koreans starving?

*Canuckheaven* opens trap door......

Because Kim Jong Il is hording money for his nuclear program and not spending it on infrastructure.

Thanks for the info, but 3 of the links wouldn't open and one of them advocates a nuclear strike against NK:

by Kim Myong Chol

The Bush Administration, which calls itself champion of freedom and enemy No. 1 of tyranny, should not dither in calling the North Koreans' bluff by launching a surgical nuclear strike on the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK).

Just wonderful!!

Bush is just following what Clinton planned on doing!

how can you say that the only nation to ever use nukes in war, and on civilian targets to boot, is somehow more trustworthy even the least well governed nation on earth.

If you wish to discuss the targeting of civilians in war. We can start with Guernica, April 26, 1937.

What about the Firebombing of Tokyo that killed far more people than Hiroshima or Nasaki? Dresden? Berlin? Hamburg? London? Etc Etc Etc?

Those were all civilian targets too.

As to being trust worhty, we haven't used them since have we?
North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, and Laos come to mind. Oh and Baghdad.

North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, and Laos come to mind. Oh and Baghdad.

WWII saw far worse than what was leveled during the 60s!

Both sides did it too in WWII! At least in the 60s we tried not to though precisions weapons weren't that good back in Nam!

They were excellent however against Baghdad!

You know crap about military technology!

Well most of you have probably heard about the nuclear weapons N. Korea has claimed to have built. You also probably heard about Rice's statement saying that this was "an unfourtunate move by the N. Koreans that will only further isolate them from the international community.

What do you think. I personally beleive that it was an unfourtunate move but the N. Koreans really don't seem too upset about not being cozy with the international community.

I would say they just dug their own grave. The only reason why N.Korea has persued WMD is because they've wanted leverage to get more concession out of the United States so that they can have more trade opprotunities and have some sanctions lifted

They REQUIRE cozy relations with the international relations because they are starving. They may have all the money they want to build nukes, but if they can't afford to eat, everything else is rather moot

North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, and Laos come to mind. Oh and Baghdad.

he was talking about the nukes... we've not used nukes again since WW2

not the firebombing

he was talking about the nukes... we've not used nukes again since WW2

not the firebombing

He was responding to me as I responded to someone who mentioned Hiroshima and Nagasaki as civilian targets.

I posted regarding the bombing of civilian targets were the norm in WWII!

Well, I'm not sure Mr. Chol has a firm grip on reality.....

"Kim Myong Chol, a North Korean writer living in Japan and reportedly with
close ties to the North Korean government....."


It sounds like he's trying to exacerbate the situation.....



Try this link, it's the main site.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/index.html

Another interesting piece of information....
"The construction of these new half-submerged type grain storage facilities began at the end of 1995, when foreign relief goods from international organizations and western countries were sent to North Korea right after floods damage crops. The construction of these grain storage facilities aroused suspicions that the 150,000 tons of rice provided to North Korea by the ROK Government and the 500,000 tons of rice provided by the Japanese Government were diverted for military purposes."
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/facility/food.htm
Well I would imagine that starving troops have very little potential as defenders of the country? I am not saying that I agree with this but it is most logical?

Also from the link you provided (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/cia111902.html), it appears that any development on a nuclear weapon (final stages) has occurred since the Bush declaration that NK was a part of the Axis of Evil, and the NK government kicking out the nuclear watchdogs.

Also from the link you provided (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/cia111902.html), it appears that any development on a nuclear weapon (final stages) has occurred since the Bush declaration that NK was a part of the Axis of Evil, and the NK government kicking out the nuclear watchdogs.

The final stages might have occured under the Bush Administration but Bush is not at fault for North Korea's Nuclear Ambitions.

WWII saw far worse than what was leveled during the 60s!

Both sides did it too in WWII! At least in the 60s we tried not to though precisions weapons weren't that good back in Nam!

They were excellent however against Baghdad!

You know crap about military technology!
I just read the history. Perhaps you want to re-write it?

I just read the history. Perhaps you want to re-write it?

Perhaps you want to look at the technology?

WWII saw far worse than what was leveled during the 60s!

Both sides did it too in WWII! At least in the 60s we tried not to though precisions weapons weren't that good back in Nam!

They were excellent however against Baghdad!

You know crap about military technology!

The Geneva Convention and subsequent rules of war were a result of WWII, as was the UN. Since then countries have been subject to said Convention.

And as for the use of Nuclear weaponry (sp?), President Tuman most likely okayed the use of the bombs because if he did not use them the war could have lasted much longer in the Pacific Theatre, thus raising the number of allied casualties. In all fairness there are stories of American pilots dropping paper leaflets over the targeted cities, warning the people to evacuate, though I am not sure if these stories are 100% factual.

Well I would imagine that starving troops have very little potential as defenders of the country? I am not saying that I agree with this but it is most logical?

Also from the link you provided (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/cia111902.html), it appears that any development on a nuclear weapon (final stages) has occurred since the Bush declaration that NK was a part of the Axis of Evil, and the NK government kicking out the nuclear watchdogs.


Which means you categorically ignored all of this:

"UNCLASSIFIED
Nuclear Weapons
The US has been concerned about North Korea's desire for nuclear weapons and has assessed since the early 1990s that the North has one or possibly two weapons using plutonium it produced prior to 1992."
www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dp...11902.html

"OCTOBER 21 1997

I am Choi Ju-hwal, I served in the Ministry of People's Army from
1968 to 1995. I defected from my post as Colonel and Chief of joint venture section of Yung-Seong Trading Company under the Ministry of People's Army. I would like to describe North Korean weapons of mass
destruction.

It is widely known in North Korea that North Korea produces, deploys and stockpiles two or three nuclear warheads and toxic material such as over 5,000 tons of toxic gas."
www.fas.org/spp/starwars/...21choi.htm

"Yongbyon Separation Plant - A plutonium separation facility ("Radiological Research Lab") was built at Yongbyon in 1987. This plant is capable of handling several hundreds of tons of fuel a year, enough to handle fuel from all of the reactors , some 33 lb. of plutonium annually.. The plutonium factory for the nuclear weapons is a single story building constructed on top the main plutonium reprocessing facility, deep underground. In 1993, N Korea completed a second plant, doubling its capacity for plutonium production."
www.kimsoft.com/korea/nk-nukes.htm

"In July 1990 The Washington Post reported that new satellite photographs showed the presence in Yongbyon of a structure which could possibly be used to separate plutonium from nuclear fuel."

www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dp...index.html"

Perhaps you want to look at the technology?
I have seen the results of that technology and it isn't pretty to say the least:

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-death.htm

Warning!! Graphic images!! (http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_page1.htm)

Killing Civilians to Show That Killing Civilians is Wrong:

http://thirdtablet.com/InfiniteJustUs/zoltan_grossman.html

Too many wars, too much pain and suffering (on both sides) and not enough to show for it. I call it futility.

The Geneva Convention and subsequent rules of war were a result of WWII, as was the UN. Since then countries have been subject to said Convention.

And as for the use of Nuclear weaponry (sp?), President Tuman most likely okayed the use of the bombs because if he did not use them the war could have lasted much longer in the Pacific Theatre, thus raising the number of allied casualties. In all fairness there are stories of American pilots dropping paper leaflets over the targeted cities, warning the people to evacuate, though I am not sure if these stories are 100% factual.

Actually the leaflets are fact! We did try to warn the Japanese civilians AND the government. The first bomb should've been enough but then, the military leaders didn't believe in surrender and the second bomb didn't do much but thanks to the Emporer himself, he endend the war and they try to oust him but that coup failed.

Which means you categorically ignored all of this:

"UNCLASSIFIED
Nuclear Weapons
The US has been concerned about North Korea's desire for nuclear weapons and has assessed since the early 1990s that the North has one or possibly two weapons using plutonium it produced prior to 1992."
www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dp...11902.html

"OCTOBER 21 1997

I am Choi Ju-hwal, I served in the Ministry of People's Army from
1968 to 1995. I defected from my post as Colonel and Chief of joint venture section of Yung-Seong Trading Company under the Ministry of People's Army. I would like to describe North Korean weapons of mass
destruction.

It is widely known in North Korea that North Korea produces, deploys and stockpiles two or three nuclear warheads and toxic material such as over 5,000 tons of toxic gas."
www.fas.org/spp/starwars/...21choi.htm

"Yongbyon Separation Plant - A plutonium separation facility ("Radiological Research Lab") was built at Yongbyon in 1987. This plant is capable of handling several hundreds of tons of fuel a year, enough to handle fuel from all of the reactors , some 33 lb. of plutonium annually.. The plutonium factory for the nuclear weapons is a single story building constructed on top the main plutonium reprocessing facility, deep underground. In 1993, N Korea completed a second plant, doubling its capacity for plutonium production."
www.kimsoft.com/korea/nk-nukes.htm

"In July 1990 The Washington Post reported that new satellite photographs showed the presence in Yongbyon of a structure which could possibly be used to separate plutonium from nuclear fuel."

www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dp...index.html"
I did not categorically ignore anything. Once again, the two links you have provided do not work.

The last link I did look at and it does not indicate the presence of NK nukes prior to the year 2002. Certainly the capabilities were there and the NK government was able to make an atomic weapon, after the UN nuclear agency was booted out.