NationStates Jolt Archive


The Moral Justification For Anarchism

V_equals_v0_plus_at
12-02-2005, 01:30
Following is a proof that the desirability of an anarchic society follows naturally from the moral standards of the American consensus.

I. The Foundation of Relative Absolutist Morality

In an absolute sense, we humans mean nothing. What's so important about the human race in general? What importance do we have to the universe? Assuming that there is no God (for as a friend of mine once said, "The burden of proof lies on the one claiming the positive"), our importance does not exist, and we are all equally irrelevant.

However, it is pretty clear that, pending morality, we are all important to ourselves. It therefore follows that because I am important to myself, every conscious being must be (relatively) important. It is possible for humanity to be important and non-important at the same time, much like it is possible for a marble to be big and small at the same time. The marble is big relative to the atom, while it is small relative to the solar system. Similarly, the human is important to himself, and therefore, to other humans, while it is unimportant in an absolute sense.

Because every conscious being must be objectively equal, it therefore follows that the sum of many conscious beings is more important that one conscious being alone; in other words, that the majority is more important than the minority, and that "the greatest benefit for the greatest number of people shall determine the moral course of action," which is, in effect, the theory of utilitarianism.

II. The Hierarchy of Morality

Yet it is quite clear that giving the majority what they want will eventually cause things to become ugly and immoral. Utilitarianism dictates that slavery would have been moral in the 19th century, and that it is morally acceptable to ostracize one person in order to strengthen ties between the others. It is therefore obvious that utilitarianism is subordinate to other moral ideals. It must be below compassion and freedom as well as justice. (It obviously isn't fair---or morally acceptable---to vote the winner of a nine-person race out of first place just to improve the standing of the other eight.) However, utilitarianism is occasionally the principle to be followed. If ten people want to play hide-and-seek, three people want to play house, and all of them want to play together, the kids ought to play hide-and-seek because there's no reason not to benefit the majority (assuming all are in good physical condition).

Because we have now established that at least three moral ideals are superior to utilitarianism, we now know that utilitarianism is not the ultimate (highest-ranking) moral ideal. But if not utilitarianism, what is the ultimate moral ideal?

Let us first begin with freedom. It is clear that if we put freedom above all else, society shall crumble (unless it's an anarchic society, but anarchism requires the assumption that the majority is anarchist). If we put freedom first, or even above compassion, corporations will be able to exploit people to the best of their ability, poor people will be left to starve to death, and people will be allowed to rape and murder people whenever they want to. Society, in other words, will be governed by force.

What if we put compassion above all else? Then everyone would be forced to live for everyone else, religion would be banned (it creates too many religious conflicts, thus disrupting the peace), and political activists would be prosecuted. So as you can see, all-out compassion destroys freedom, and all-out freedom destroys compassion. Because there cannot be more of one than the other, the two must be equal in value, or at least close to equal.

What if we put justice above compassion and, therefore, above freedom as well? This, of course, depends on what justice is. In this essay, we shall take justice to mean the "an-eye-for-an-eye" principle, the "you-get-exactly-what-you-deserve" law. (Some people use the term "justice" to refer to the sum of all moral ideals, for example "It's just not right.") Needless to say, this makes justice an abominable ideal. Under the law of justice, if one rapes another, he must be raped himself. Under the law of justice, if one kills another, he must have his life taken. Under the law of justice, we humans would all have to commit suicide because of all the bacteria we have destroyed by washing our hands. It is therefore fairly clear that we cannot have a society in which justice is more important than all other moral ideals, or even one in which justice is more important than compassion. So this makes justice at most third place.

So currently we have established that compassion and freedom are equal and tie for first, that justice comes third, and that utilitarianism comes fourth. What about reason? Let us imagine a society in which reason is of no importance....

A fleet of robots, each specializing in a very specific area, control the earth. When they feel the urge to do so, the humans urinate and defecate in a little tube. This tube leads to machines that make oil from organic compounds. The oil powers the robots, who not only replicate themselves but also serve the humans. All knowledge has been destroyed, for with knowledge, humans would know how to turn off the robots and thus subvert society. Nobody has a job; the robots do everything for the humans. Innovation is not necessary, for humans are content as is. What's wrong with this picture? Absolutely nothing---if one ignores the moral law of reason. We must declare as axiomatic the relevance of the truth, or else we end up with a society that frightens most sane members of the population.

Reason is also necessary because without reason, one cannot pinpoint the path of maximum morality. For this reason, reason is the most important moral law of all. It trumps both compassion and freedom, or at least ties with both.

III. Reason and Absolute Power
(Here I source Wikipedia on the Milgram experiment and the Stanford prison experiment; I also source 1984, for obvious reasons.)

Authority is the arch-nemesis of reason. I say this not only because authority alone can diminish a person's reasoning capacities, but also because when a person has authority, he doesn't have to reason, and tends not to do so.

An example of authority diminishing a person's reasoning capacities can be found in the book 1984 by George Orwell, in which Winston, an undercover anti-Party crusader, is captured and is slowly brainwashed through the systematic use of force. An example of this occurring in real life can be found in the Milgram experiment on authority, in which the subject is told to ask another "subject" a series of questions and to administer electric shocks of increasing strength if he did not provide the correct answer. Now what this subject didn't know was that the person he was supposed to shock was actually a researcher, and that this researcher was not connected to the shocking apparatus.

The shocking apparatus supposedly could not give more than a 450-volt shock, and both the subject and the researcher were given a 45-volt shock before the commencement of the experiment; the subject because it was required for the moral conflict (between following orders and following conscience) that he know what he was supposedly doing to the researcher, and the researcher because he was trying to act like a fellow subject who had been given his role at random.

When the subject reached 150 volts, the researcher sitting in the chair asked him to stop the experiment, as it was allegedly becoming increasingly painful and dangerous. However, another researcher told the subject to continue with the experiment; if the subject was hesitant to do so, the researcher would tell him that he was responsible for anything that happened to the other "subject."

Despite the fact that the subjects knew (or thought they knew) the pain they were inflicting upon the researchers and that reason, coupled with the rest of morality, would have likely impelled them to stop had they not been exposed to authority, 65% of them went all the way; i.e., (to quote Wikipedia on this) "administered the experiment's final 450-volt shock." This was in stark contrast to what was expected; most people that Milgram had asked beforehand had predicted that very few people would actually do so. And it shows quite well how much impact authority can have upon a person's judgment and actions.

The second reason I have given for my statement above is that when a person has authority, he need not reason, and tends not to do so. This is quite evident in many families; next time you see a parent with a teenager or child, wait for him to say "Because I said so" and threaten the kid with spanking, grounding, or revocation of a privilege in order to force the child to abide by a personal prejudice of the parent's.

It is also evidenced by what is now known as the Stanford prison experiment; in this experiment, which was designed for the purpose of observation of prison behavior, the subjects were divided into two groups of people, one labeled "guards" and the other labeled "prisoners." They were then brought to the basement of the Stanford psychology department, which had been designed to look like a prison, and the guards were told to keep control of the prison in question without resorting to the use of physical force.

After a while, the guards started mistreating and abusing the prisoners; that is, they started acting as if they were somehow superior to them, even though the roles of the subjects had been chosen randomly. This continued to the point where five prisoners had to be released from the experiment before its termination, despite the fact that the experiment itself was terminated eight days before it was supposed to end. As the people chosen to participate in the experiment were the most normal people applying to participate, and as most did not behave in such a monstrous way in real life, it is relatively safe to say that during the experiment, authority had clouded the guards' judgment and had removed them from a sense of moral responsibility.

So, in short, authority is the arch-nemesis of reason; this proposition can be restated as "absolute power corrupts absolutely."

IV. The Ultimate Utopia

Since authority is the arch-nemesis of reason, it therefore follows that the only way to achieve a rational society is through the elimination of all authority. This proposition has some very far-reaching consequences; in order to eliminate authority, we must eliminate government, capitalism, the structure of family, and religion. It's easy to see how the proposition necessitates the elimination of government; as government gives government officials authority over average citizens, or, in some cases, puts the majority above the minority. The religion proposition is also fairly straightforward: religion puts the alleged will of a "God" not proven to exist (note that faith is not subject to reason and is therefore immoral in a way) over all of humanity.

Some would deny the fact that capitalism puts bosses above workers; these people state that the two are in a mutually beneficial joint partnership. This is true to an extent; however, the boss is still often above the worker, as the boss can force the worker to do anything so long as his practices are less merciless than those of all other employers. And often other employers run scarce; this would explain why Third-World workers line up by the thousands to apply for sweatshop position in which they are constantly abused, overworked, and underpaid. One could even say that these laborers are doing backbreaking work under the threat of starvation, for they know very well that the bosses have the power to fire them at will and to reduce them to a state of hunger and homelessness, and the bosses know that the workers know this. This is little more than slavery, and obviously represents a relationship tarnished by authority.

(One could also say that capitalism puts the rich in general above the poor in general, as money grants one the power to have other people work for you, and the rich have more money, and therefore more power, than the poor.)

Perhaps the worst hierarchical relationship currently visible is the relationship between family members. The father is above the mother (fortunately, this is changing, albeit slowly), who is above the children. I say this is the worst form of authority because it influences children at a very young age. It impresses upon them that might makes right, that life isn't fair, that it's useless to challenge authority because the parents can make you suffer for doing so. The adults have a means of enforcing their will. They're the ones with the whips, so you'd better stay on their good side, even if they're wrong. In effect, the structure of family trains children to tolerate totalitarianism, and in doing so, forces them to accept the patterns of exploitation and dominance exhibited in other hierarchical relationships.

What would a society without these patterns of dominance, that is, a rational society, be like? First of all, government would be replaced by a system in which people resolve issues through discussion and debate, thus allowing the most reasonable solutions to flourish while the oppressive ones die out. (Contrary to the belief of many, voting in most cases would be a bad idea, as it would only serve to put absolute power in the hands of the majority. But of course in situations in which no side is clearly in the moral right or the moral wrong, on in time-sensitive emergencies, it is acceptable to vote, as there's no reason not to appeal to the desires of the majority.) Of course, everyone would be allowed in these debates, as nearly everyone has the potential to have good ideas. (If the meetings become too big, groups of people send delegates to groups of people who send delegates to groups of people who send delegates to the meetings.) Although some people say that the lack of government would cause crime, this would not be the case, as in a rational society, the rational majority would likely form a huge group dedicated to the prevention and termination of crime, owing to the fact that most people desire law and order.

Of course, this begs the question "How do we know it's going to do that?" This is where the revolt comes in. Unfortunately, this society can only be achieved through majority revolt in the name of such a society. (It's sad, but it's a clear case of the ends justifying the means.) Although this is mainly because revolt is the only way of abolishing a government without creating a new one in its place, the revolt also comes in handy due to the convenient fact that anyone who willingly revolts in the name of a society will probably be dedicated to the creation of that society in question. It also provides a sort of safeguard; if I'm delusional and this idea is far too idiotic to be even worth thinking about, the revolt won't happen, as I probably won't be able to persuade the masses to revolt in the name of a rational society. Of course, someone eloquent and persuasive could attempt to do so, but with rhetoric rather than reason; this, however, would lead to a revolt by the brainwashed rather than a revolt by the consenting majority and would therefore not be the type of revolt necessary for the achievement of a rational society.

Of course, some people claim that any revolt will be squashed by the government before it succeeds in achieving its objective. This is not altogether true, despite the fact that some governments are extremely difficult to assail. Why? Because no leader wants to kill everyone he rules over. It's hard work rising to power, you know. (This is another reason why we need a majority revolt and not a revolt by two or three radicals.)

But in any case, the huge crime-fighting group which I mentioned before would not treat criminals in an immoral and uncompassionate fashion, as its constituents would all be morally righteous, and all practices of the crime-fighting group would be open for debate, just as all other issues would.

This crime-fighting group, by the way, would also have as one of its duties the prevention of totalitarianism; that is, it or some other newly-formed group would prevent any hopeful despot from rising to power. This would be easily accomplished, as the majority would be highly sensitive to tyranny, and would also be relatively skilled in revolting, having revolted before. (This is another reason why the minority cannot liberate the people for them; if some despot decides to take over the world, the majority will be left completely defenseless.) It would also be easily accomplished because in this society the majority would give everyone one standard gun in order to eliminate inherent differences in strength and therefore put power in the hands of the majority (Alex can shoot Betsy as hard as Betsy can shoot Adam, but without guns, Alex would undoubtedly be able to intimidate Betsy as well as Chris) and for the purpose of protection against tyranny. Of course people would be able to make better guns, but those people would be disarmed by the majority.

While guns would ultimately put absolute power in the hands of the majority, ultimately power must lie somewhere, and the rational majority is the safest place to put it. (Unfortunately, no society is perfectly rational, much like how no chemical reaction can give you 100% yield, and although this society is more rational than many, it falls short of perfect rationality. Despite the fact that absolute power, even when placed in the hands of the majority, corrupts absolutely, the majority is far less corruptible than the minority is. Besides, if the majority starts becoming incredibly tyrannical, the minority could always attempt to influence its policy using terrorist tactics.

The economy would be organized in one of two possible ways: it would either be organized in a manner similar to the government, with people resolving economic issues through discussion and debate, or it would operate on a "from each according to ability, to each according to need" basis (sorry for the cliche). The former option would lead to a rational society, while the latter would lead to a compassionate and free one. (Recall that reason may tie with compassion and freedom.) Of course, the people might find a better option (through debate, of course), in which case they would (hopefully) adopt it. But in any case, it would be unacceptable for the economy to be controlled by any small group of people, as that would create a measure of authority in that grouop of people.

What would the family structure be replaced by in a rational society? My guess is that anyone who wanted to take care of children would be able to do so, but that nobody would force any child to do anything. Of course, they would warn them that their actions would have real-life consequences; for example, that playing in the street may result in their getting hit by a car.

Religion hopefully wouldn't be replaced with anything, as religious belief is based on faith rather than on reason and therefore doesn't belong in a rational society. Of course it'd be oppressive to harm someone for his religious beliefs, but religion hopefully wouldn't matter during the rational decision-making process. In other words, there'd hopefully be separation of church and state.

Perhaps the most pressing question of all is whether this society shall ever actually be realized. In the end, what will determine whether this revolt which sets all this stuff in motion happens or not will be whether humans can conquer their own instincts through awareness of their faults. If they can conquer their tendency to be capitalistic, to always look out for themselves, to stay on top of the hierarchy rather than abolishing it altogether, then this revolt may eventually happen. Otherwise, humanity will forever continue to live in illogical misery and despair.

(If you were offended, I'm a wimp and hence probably wouldn't actually fight for a rational society :))
Saiyevn
12-02-2005, 01:38
Hmm, an anarchic society or an Ultimate Utopia wouldn't work; its the nature of man to govern over others.
Roach-Busters
12-02-2005, 01:43
Very well written, however, I can't say I agree. Anarchy wouldn't work. Humans are just too rotten, perverse, repulsive, and hopelessly corrupt.
Vangaardia
12-02-2005, 02:01
Very well written. Man urge for power is a strong one and what better way to gain power then to organize therefore become non-anarchist. The quest for power will always lead man to government of some shape or variety.

In an anarchist society if we have a dispute what better way to win the dispute than to organize others and then end the dispute and if needed by war.

This seems to be the path of man to organize and to control.
V_equals_v0_plus_at
12-02-2005, 05:52
Very well written, however, I can't say I agree. Anarchy wouldn't work. Humans are just too rotten, perverse, repulsive, and hopelessly corrupt.

Yet evidence that human nature is alterable can be found in the existence of domesticated animals. If animal nature can change, human nature can likely change as well, albeit only in the distant future.

Plus there's a small amount of evidence out there that humans are innately good. Although I don't quite understand how this article's conclusion follows from the experiment...

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/99/105120.htm

Man urge for power is a strong one and what better way to gain power then to organize therefore become non-anarchist.

Organization is not necessarily non-anarchist.

http://question-everything.mahost.org/Socio-Politics/BasicAnarchy.html

In an anarchist society if we have a dispute what better way to win the dispute than to organize others and then end the dispute and if needed by war.

This seems to be the path of man to organize and to control.

And man may deviate from this path.
Omnibenevolent Discord
12-02-2005, 17:13
It would seem we have very similar ideals on how society should operate, only where as you only focused on why, I also tried to focus on how, started a thread on it here, but no one's responded yet...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=397079

Well, maybe not exactly, but I can tell a lot of the things you discussed were things I took into consideration when coming up with the system of government.
Alien Born
12-02-2005, 18:03
Because every conscious being must be objectively equal, it therefore follows that the sum of many conscious beings is more important that one conscious being alone; in other words, that the majority is more important than the minority, and that "the greatest benefit for the greatest number of people shall determine the moral course of action," which is, in effect, the theory of utilitarianism.

It does not follow at all. First you would have to show that importance is a cumulative properety. The basis of importance you give, is that of the individual to themself, this does not have to be distributed beyond this. My importance to me does not imply that the 1 billion people in china are more important to me than I am.

So currently we have established that compassion and freedom are equal and tie for first, that justice comes third, and that utilitarianism comes fourth.

Under a set of assumptions, each of which is disputable and not clearly established. You give no real discussion of freedom whatsoever, you do not make it clear if you are referring to positive or negative freedom. You assert that unbridled freedom would result in the collapse of society, without evidence. This does imply, however that you are referring to negative freedom. The freedom from regulation and restraint, rather than positive freedom, the freedom to persue hapiness by having your basic needs met.

Compassion does not destroy freedom. Egalitarianism does, but compassion is simply that feeling of sympathy for the other. This is by no means incompatible with any type of freedom. Given this you can place freedom above compassion in your scheme.

Justice. Now here is the real dificulty. Justice is not just punishment for antisocial behaviour. "An eye for an eye" can not ever sumarise the concept of being just. It can only summarise a concept of retributive justice, which is not the whole of justice by any means. Is it not just that a person obtains some benefit from their effort. Is it not just that a person should have the right of disposal over goods that they have obtained through their work. These are not concepts that your discussion of justice even approaches.

So now we have Freedom, compassion and justice as all being factors of importance in our human lives, but there is no possibility nor need of ranking these aspects, as they are not mutually exclusive. Having one does not preclude either of the other two. Utilitarianism, at this point, is simply a false lead.

Now onto the big problem: Reason

Let us start with by examining the nature of morality. Morality is, inherently, practical. By this I mean that it is a factor in our activities. It causes actions or the restraint from action. It is not an abstract intellectual concept, like mathematics. Believing a moral statement, such as "killing is wrong", directly affects ones behaviour. Believing a positive moral statement, such as "respecting other people is good", is a cause of behaviour.

Now believing a purely rational statement such as "If it is raining then ground open to the sky will become wet" can never cause behaviour. Even a purportedly rational moral statement, such as "act only as you would will to be a universal law" does not cause any behaviour. Rationality, or reason, and morality are disconnected in a practical sense.

Your example of the robots simply reaffirms that reason has no direct part in morality. The robots can act with reason, they cannot act with passion or belief. (The instrumental and expository roles of reason in morality are another discussion.)

So your conclusion of the next part (well presented and argued) that:
authority is the arch-nemesis of reason; this proposition can be restated as "absolute power corrupts absolutely." is true, but totally irrelevant to morality.

Your concluding section, depends upon agreement that rationality is morally good and hence that a fully rational society is a moral society. This has not been shown at all.

What would a society without these patterns of dominance, that is, a rational society, be like? My answer to this is that it would be a completely amoral society. If all that controls the behaviour of the individuals in society is reason, then moral evaluation, moral judgements etc, all cease to exist.

Now unleash the Kantians. I await your full blooded broadside attack on my position that reason is divorced from morality.
V_equals_v0_plus_at
13-02-2005, 17:24
Quote:
Because every conscious being must be objectively equal, it therefore follows that the sum of many conscious beings is more important that one conscious being alone; in other words, that the majority is more important than the minority, and that "the greatest benefit for the greatest number of people shall determine the moral course of action," which is, in effect, the theory of utilitarianism.

It does not follow at all. First you would have to show that importance is a cumulative properety. The basis of importance you give, is that of the individual to themself, this does not have to be distributed beyond this. My importance to me does not imply that the 1 billion people in china are more important to me than I am.

It implies that if you are to be consistent, they should be more important, as they're essentially the same as you. Therefore utilitarianism is moral and not necessarily what happens in real life; i.e., it is what ought be furthered rather than what is furthered. (Sorry for not being too clear on that)

Under a set of assumptions, each of which is disputable and not clearly established. You give no real discussion of freedom whatsoever, you do not make it clear if you are referring to positive or negative freedom. You assert that unbridled freedom would result in the collapse of society, without evidence. This does imply, however that you are referring to negative freedom. The freedom from regulation and restraint, rather than positive freedom, the freedom to persue hapiness by having your basic needs met.

I'm probably referring to positive freedom---the freedom to rape, the freedom to murder, the freedom for corporations to exploit their people. But it should be noted that this whole positive/negative freedom thing is a tad ambiguous to begin with---as you said, this could also be interpreted as the freedom from regulation and restraint.

Of course, unless people never exercise these freedoms (and until human nature is fundamentally changed they will), this sort of freedom will result in the collapse of society.

Compassion does not destroy freedom. Egalitarianism does, but compassion is simply that feeling of sympathy for the other. This is by no means incompatible with any type of freedom. Given this you can place freedom above compassion in your scheme.

Compassion, the way I'm defining it, is the attempt to promote the welfare of others, by force if necessary. Which can be incompatible, if force is necessary. In some societies it won't be incompatible, as in these societies people will promote the welfare of others without being forced to.

Justice. Now here is the real dificulty. Justice is not just punishment for antisocial behaviour. "An eye for an eye" can not ever sumarise the concept of being just. It can only summarise a concept of retributive justice, which is not the whole of justice by any means. Is it not just that a person obtains some benefit from their effort. Is it not just that a person should have the right of disposal over goods that they have obtained through their work. These are not concepts that your discussion of justice even approaches.

Justice is essentially the law that states "you get exactly what you give." In some cases this may be good (possibly as in obtaining some benefit from effort), but if we state it is absolutely higher than compassion, we end up with things like "he who rapes must be raped," etc. Therefore, assuming the moral standards of the American consensus, it can't be absolutely higher than compassion.

So now we have Freedom, compassion and justice as all being factors of importance in our human lives, but there is no possibility nor need of ranking these aspects, as they are not mutually exclusive. Having one does not preclude either of the other two. Utilitarianism, at this point, is simply a false lead.

Just because things aren't mutually exclusive doesn't mean they can't be ranked. Finding a $10 bill on the street and winning the lottery aren't mutually exclusive, yet the latter is undoubtedly better than the former.

Now onto the big problem: Reason

Let us start with by examining the nature of morality. Morality is, inherently, practical. By this I mean that it is a factor in our activities. It causes actions or the restraint from action. It is not an abstract intellectual concept, like mathematics. Believing a moral statement, such as "killing is wrong", directly affects ones behaviour. Believing a positive moral statement, such as "respecting other people is good", is a cause of behaviour.

Now believing a purely rational statement such as "If it is raining then ground open to the sky will become wet" can never cause behaviour. Even a purportedly rational moral statement, such as "act only as you would will to be a universal law" does not cause any behaviour. Rationality, or reason, and morality are disconnected in a practical sense.

Believing the statement "If it is raining then ground open to the sky will become wet" will cause behavior in the same way that believing "killing is wrong" will. Both of these statements can advise a person to do something, although in both cases he is not required to do what the statement advises, as both of these statements require additional premises to operate. Under the premise "Adam doesn't want to do what's wrong," one can deduce that killing is not for him; under the premise "Betty doesn't want to get wet" (among other premises) one can deduce that she, being aware of the premise, doesn't want to go out in the rain.

However, it should be noted that this very act of deduction that makes both rational and moral statements applicable to everyday life requires reason, which can be defined as an amalgam of awareness and logic. Without logic, neither of these statements can really cause behavior. Therefore morality is utterly meaningless without reason.

Furthermore, I'm not sure if you mean "rational statement" so much as you mean "neutral statement."

Your example of the robots simply reaffirms that reason has no direct part in morality. The robots can act with reason, they cannot act with passion or belief. (The instrumental and expository roles of reason in morality are another discussion.)

The thing is, the humans can't act with reason in this scenario.
Haloman
13-02-2005, 17:37
Authority =/= teh omg eval.

Authority is needed. This is something that most anarchists fail to understand. With a lack of authority, comes a lack of order. If there were no laws to govern a society, the society would do whatever the hell they wanted, They'd go on killing sprees, and no one could do anything whatsoever about it. In this way, anarchy is completely immoral. You don't realize, that if we had anarchy, you'd be dead within a matter of weeks. I stress again, authority is NOT bad.
New Granada
13-02-2005, 18:53
The Moral Justification for the Good Offices of the Space Angels.



Hunger exists in the world, it causes discomfort and death to millions of people every year.


The Space Angels have the magical ability to change the human race so that it does not need to eat.

The Space Angels should therefore use their magical ability to change the human race so that people do not need to eat.

This would solve many problems:
Hunger - without hunger, people would be under less psychological stress and
would get along better.
Famine - human beings would not starve to death, and this would lead to good things in the third world.
Food production no longer an issue - the economics and politics of the world food industries would no longer exist, more room would be available for people to live in.
Animal rights - animals would not need to be slaughtered for food.


This said, I think that the reasonable conclusion is that the Space Angels should come to earth and eliminate hunger.

For its entire history, manking has struggled with hunger and food and this has lead to all of the ills of the world.

Verily, without hunger and the need to produce food, conflict would all but vanish from the world.

Over the years different societies have tried many different things to eliminate the hunger of people. All however, (excepting small bands of hunter-gatherers) have been based in food production.

This is a new millenium and as such, humanity is ready to take the new path and embrace the good offices of the Space Angels to solve the problem of hunger.

The ideology is revolutionary, nothing like this has ever occured on a large scale before.

But if we succeed, as we must succeed and shall; the world will move into an age of unprecedented peace and universal health and happiness.
Alexias
13-02-2005, 19:35
Oh, god that's funny!


As for the nature of domesticated animals, well that is changed by humans, and animals do not change human nature.

Only humans can do that.

And if humans start changing others nature towards there own good, well, then it's not really anarchism, is it?

And what the hell do you mean organization is not against your anarchy? The hell! That is the exact opposite! Anarchy is difined as the lack of order or common purpose. If people work together, to do anything at all, that is common purpose.

If a guy boosts his friend over a fence, common purpose, organization, no more anarchy(techically). So you make no sense when you say that.

And if you will just look around, it is the nature of not just humans, but every living being, to work together and organize.

Lions in prides, redwood trees, anything that fornicates, and obviously, humans.

Unless you feel we can all reprogram our brains, I do not see it happening, I am sorry.


I suppose your article could be called nicely written, but it's really more of the same.

Of course, I don't doubt you worked very hard on it.

Good work.
Alien Born
13-02-2005, 19:56
It implies that if you are to be consistent, they should be more important, as they're essentially the same as you. Therefore utilitarianism is moral and not necessarily what happens in real life; i.e., it is what ought be furthered rather than what is furthered. (Sorry for not being too clear on that)

If you are to be consistent, true. But human beings are never consistent. Never. (see Nozick on this one). Morality has to be within the realm of human possibility, if it is not, then it can not be practical, it can not guide lives, and it can not, by definition be morality. This, along with the problems of weighting and the calculation itself, are the reasons why Utilitarianism has been so thorouhly discreditied.
I'm probably referring to positive freedom---the freedom to rape, the freedom to murder, the freedom for corporations to exploit their people. But it should be noted that this whole positive/negative freedom thing is a tad ambiguous to begin with---as you said, this could also be interpreted as the freedom from regulation and restraint.

Of course, unless people never exercise these freedoms (and until human nature is fundamentally changed they will), this sort of freedom will result in the collapse of society.

If you think in terms of positive freedoms only, then yes, society collapses, but why would anyone think this way. Liberty, is essentially a negative freedom. It is freedom from constraint. This is a fundamental freedom, one that can not be ignored. Freedoms need to be weighed against one another. As I have pointed out in another thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=396931&page=3&pp=15) this depends upon the type of freedom. If you place negative freedoms first, and the difference is clear in every case, then society does not necessarily collapse.

Compassion, the way I'm defining it, is the attempt to promote the welfare of others, by force if necessary. Which can be incompatible, if force is necessary. In some societies it won't be incompatible, as in these societies people will promote the welfare of others without being forced to.
The strangest definition of compassion I have ever encountered. Compassion is fellow feeling, is sympathy, is that "I hurt when you hurt" feeling. It is identifying the other with yourself. It has absolutely nothing to do with promoting the welfare of the other. Compassion, being an emotion, simply can not be forced on anyone. It can be provoked, or encouraged, or repressed, but not forced. Social welfare, being an activity, not an emotion can be enforced. This is what the soviets and the Chinese did and do in theory (In practice it was something else of course)

Justice is essentially the law that states "you get exactly what you give." In some cases this may be good (possibly as in obtaining some benefit from effort), but if we state it is absolutely higher than compassion, we end up with things like "he who rapes must be raped," etc. Therefore, assuming the moral standards of the American consensus, it can't be absolutely higher than compassion.

So it is unjust if I pay US$10 for a pizza. It would only be just if I paid a pizza for a pizza, and then only if it were the same size, thickness, age, and topping. Justice is the agreement between parties in an exchange that they are satisfied with the exchange. No equality is required, just mutual satisfaction. The conclusion that the only just punishment for a rapist is rape, simply does not hold. The just punishment for a rapist is anything that would satisfy the society. This may range from being staked out in the sun to die of thirst, through to a series of behavioural councelling sessions. This depends upon the culture.

Just because things aren't mutually exclusive doesn't mean they can't be ranked. Finding a $10 bill on the street and winning the lottery aren't mutually exclusive, yet the latter is undoubtedly better than the former.

Non mutually exclusive things of the same kind can be ranked. Well anything can be ranked, but non mutually exclusive things of different kids are not normally ranked, as doing so is far too subjective.
Finding a US$10 bill on the street, waking up to a fresh cup of coffee, and having a good dump are all satisfying, but which is more so? They are not objectiveley rankable. This applies to freedom, compassion and justice. One is a right, one is an emotion and one is a social convention. They are not comparable in a universal sense.



Believing the statement "If it is raining then ground open to the sky will become wet" will cause behavior in the same way that believing "killing is wrong" will. Both of these statements can advise a person to do something, although in both cases he is not required to do what the statement advises, as both of these statements require additional premises to operate.

Neither of these statements advise anyone to do anything what so ever. The first is a simple statements of the state of affairs. The second the personal evaluation of an activity.

Under the premise "Adam doesn't want to do what's wrong," one can deduce that killing is not for him; under the premise "Betty doesn't want to get wet" (among other premises) one can deduce that she, being aware of the premise, doesn't want to go out in the rain.

OK, we add intentional states to the previous statements and we get action. The action derives from the intentional state, not from the descriptive statements. Intention however, has no connection with reason. There is no reason in "Betty does not want to get wet" that can not be reduced to another pair of descriptive and intentional statements. If you follow this trail we eventually end up with "Just because she/he wants to". This can not be reduced, and does not depend upon reason whatsoever. It is a pure statement of intent.

However, it should be noted that this very act of deduction that makes both rational and moral statements applicable to everyday life requires reason, which can be defined as an amalgam of awareness and logic. Without logic, neither of these statements can really cause behavior. Therefore morality is utterly meaningless without reason.
I am going to change terminology here, I will use rationality in place of reason, as reason has a double meaning (rational and motive) which can cause confusion.
Morality depends upon the beleifs and passions of the person, not upon their rationality. Rationality is not required to act. You, I and every other person in the world carry outh thousands of actions every day without thinking, without any rationality whatsoever being involved. Conscious intentional action may make use of rationality, as an instrument to determine the best action, or in an expository sense do show the possible actions, but it is not determined by rationality. (Chocolate when dieting is a good example)

Furthermore, I'm not sure if you mean "rational statement" so much as you mean "neutral statement."

I very definately meant RATIONAL statement. The statement was an example of a rational connection between an accepted cause and a consequent effect.

The thing is, the humans can't act with reason in this scenario.

Why not? Knowledge is not required for rationality, nor is innovation. Where is the restriction on rationality? In addition rationality is not required for morality, so the whole scenario is irrelevant anyway.
Invidentia
13-02-2005, 20:02
Its.. an argument.. i guess.. i wouldn't say well written.. though written long ..

You make several false assumptions and have several controdictions which essentially destroy your argument.

First you make the assumption that Humans are totally rational and logical beings. Not so, we in the end are animals subject to feels of anger, rage, envy .. etc. It is these feelings which dictate our desire for authority and power and which reveal crime... You assume these feelings can be over come by logic and rationality, but as rational as we are today.. even the most rational of people become slaves to their own feelings and commit immoral acts.

second.. in your statement :
Although some people say that the lack of government would cause crime, this would not be the case, as in a rational society, the rational majority would likely form a huge group dedicated to the prevention and termination of crime, owing to the fact that most people desire law and order.

you are essentially comming back to the issue of majority rule.. and your giving authority to the weather it be "rational" majority to dictate onto others what they feel is rational.. You've just described allbe it in a loose sense what government is.. If I as a person want to act Irrationally, you want give AUTHORITY to those "rational" people to suppress me or punish me.. how is that different from government imprisioning people, and controlling society.. How is it different from God telling you what to do ?

Now lets get into a little philsophy shall we.

You say :
It therefore follows that because I am important to myself, every conscious being must be (relatively) important. It is possible for humanity to be important and non-important at the same time, much like it is possible for a marble to be big and small at the same time.

Another assumption... You cannot know what a bat sees or how it comprehends its sense of sonar, because you are not a bat. How then can you understand what is important to me, if you are not me... you cannot ever truely known what exists in the minds of others, simply because they exist in you.
New Granada
13-02-2005, 20:07
Although some people say that the lack of government would cause crime, this would not be the case, as in a rational society, the rational majority would likely form a huge group dedicated to the prevention and termination of crime, owing to the fact that most people desire law and order.


They call that huge group dedicated to the prevention and termination of crime, born from the desire for law and order a "government."
Invidentia
13-02-2005, 20:27
This crime-fighting group, by the way, would also have as one of its duties the prevention of totalitarianism; that is, it or some other newly-formed group would prevent any hopeful despot from rising to power. This would be easily accomplished, as the majority would be highly sensitive to tyranny, and would also be relatively skilled in revolting, having revolted before. (This is another reason why the minority cannot liberate the people for them; if some despot decides to take over the world, the majority will be left completely defenseless.) It would also be easily accomplished because in this society the majority would give everyone one standard gun in order to eliminate inherent differences in strength and therefore put power in the hands of the majority (Alex can shoot Betsy as hard as Betsy can shoot Adam, but without guns, Alex would undoubtedly be able to intimidate Betsy as well as Chris) and for the purpose of protection against tyranny. Of course people would be able to make better guns, but those people would be disarmed by the majority.

You no only described a government in this paragraph.. you described a Representative government, such as Germanys and Italys.. the primary problem with such (we will use the word you used "groups") of this nature is that every person has differing priorities and levels of importance.. and it is rarely able to come to decisions as a "majority" is never present on any one issue. So you not only describe a government, but one of the most inefficent types. O.o

One last controdiction, which REALLY does you in

Yet it is quite clear that giving the majority what they want will eventually cause things to become ugly and immoral.

and then you say

This is where the revolt comes in. Unfortunately, this society can only be achieved through majority revolt in the name of such a society.

After saying that majority rule is essentially an immoral result from democracy,
you advocate revolution through a majority rule acting against government structure...

The more I look at this argument, the more it is full of holes built on false assumptions and controdictions... I pray you could never convince anyone of this government structure... (i say government cause thats what it is)

Anarchy is the absense of organization... how is it people still argue structured anarchistic systems ?
V_equals_v0_plus_at
14-02-2005, 05:38
Authority =/= teh omg eval.

Authority is needed. This is something that most anarchists fail to understand. With a lack of authority, comes a lack of order. If there were no laws to govern a society, the society would do whatever the hell they wanted, They'd go on killing sprees, and no one could do anything whatsoever about it. In this way, anarchy is completely immoral. You don't realize, that if we had anarchy, you'd be dead within a matter of weeks. I stress again, authority is NOT bad.

Yes, the society could do whatever the hell it wanted, but it wouldn't if the majority was rational and anarchist. Which is why the anarchist-majority assumption is required for anarchy.

As for the nature of domesticated animals, well that is changed by humans, and animals do not change human nature.

Only humans can do that.

And if humans start changing others nature towards there own good, well, then it's not really anarchism, is it?

Well, first of all, humans may be able to change their own nature; i.e., conquer their instincts through awareness of their faults.

Secondly, even if other humans would help, they wouldn't do it by force; rather, they'd do it by means of an agreed-upon effort to help further the morality of each other.

Thirdly, this change in human nature would occur before the achievement of the rational society, not during it.

And what the hell do you mean organization is not against your anarchy? The hell! That is the exact opposite! Anarchy is difined as the lack of order or common purpose. If people work together, to do anything at all, that is common purpose.

See the other thread on which people are having a long argument over the definition of anarchy. I believe it's called "Capitalism and Anarchy," but don't bite my head off if that's not the case.
Alexias
15-02-2005, 00:33
Hmmm. We could argue about this for years.


But might I ask, could you explain again how the transistion would go about?

And how one would deal with counter-anarchists and exploiting opportunists?


I know you explain, but could you do it again? Easier to poke wholes that way.....No, I just kidding.
Haloman
15-02-2005, 00:44
Yes, the society could do whatever the hell it wanted, but it wouldn't if the majority was rational and anarchist. Which is why the anarchist-majority assumption is required for anarchy.

Bold added by me. This is quite possibly the worst assumption ever, as well as an oxy-moron.
Alien Born
15-02-2005, 00:50
Bold added by me. This is quite possibly the worst assumption ever, as well as an oxy-moron.

While it may be a bad assumption, in terms of the real world nature of people. It is not an oxymoron. There is nothing contradictory whatsoever in being rational and being an anarchist (whatever definition of the word you choose).
New Granada
15-02-2005, 00:50
Bold added by me. This is quite possibly the worst assumption ever, as well as an oxy-moron.


I second that.
V_equals_v0_plus_at
15-02-2005, 22:30
It implies that if you are to be consistent, they should be more important, as they're essentially the same as you. Therefore utilitarianism is moral and not necessarily what happens in real life; i.e., it is what ought be furthered rather than what is furthered. (Sorry for not being too clear on that)

If you are to be consistent, true. But human beings are never consistent. Never. (see Nozick on this one). Morality has to be within the realm of human possibility, if it is not, then it can not be practical, it can not guide lives, and it can not, by definition be morality. This, along with the problems of weighting and the calculation itself, are the reasons why Utilitarianism has been so thorouhly discreditied.

You stated earlier that morality was practical in that it produces actions. However, supposing we did know this, how would we know that its practicality is what defines it and is not merely one of its secondary characteristics? If we, say, define morality as that which ought be furthered, it still has the power to guide human lives, but this guidance is not explicit in the definition.

I'm probably referring to positive freedom---the freedom to rape, the freedom to murder, the freedom for corporations to exploit their people. But it should be noted that this whole positive/negative freedom thing is a tad ambiguous to begin with---as you said, this could also be interpreted as the freedom from regulation and restraint. Of course, unless people never exercise these freedoms (and until human nature is fundamentally changed they will), this sort of freedom will result in the collapse of society.

If you think in terms of positive freedoms only, then yes, society collapses, but why would anyone think this way. Liberty, is essentially a negative freedom. It is freedom from constraint. This is a fundamental freedom, one that can not be ignored. Freedoms need to be weighed against one another. As I have pointed out in another thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=396931&page=3&pp=15) this depends upon the type of freedom. If you place negative freedoms first, and the difference is clear in every case, then society does not necessarily collapse.

a) Why ought negative freedoms always be placed first? (I responded to your thing on the other thread with something about Louis XVI having a right to not be overthrown)
b) Can't the freedom to do something be easily confused with the freedom from the restriction of doing that something?

Compassion, the way I'm defining it, is the attempt to promote the welfare of others, by force if necessary. Which can be incompatible, if force is necessary. In some societies it won't be incompatible, as in these societies people will promote the welfare of others without being forced to.

The strangest definition of compassion I have ever encountered. Compassion is fellow feeling, is sympathy, is that "I hurt when you hurt" feeling. It is identifying the other with yourself. It has absolutely nothing to do with promoting the welfare of the other. Compassion, being an emotion, simply can not be forced on anyone. It can be provoked, or encouraged, or repressed, but not forced. Social welfare, being an activity, not an emotion can be enforced. This is what the soviets and the Chinese did and do in theory (In practice it was something else of course)

Eh, well, it's the way I'm defining it. Definitions aren't a fun game.

I'm hugely sleepy, having last night pulled an all-nighter to try to finish six essays and such. Hence, I'll reply to the rest at some later time.
Letila
15-02-2005, 22:56
While it may be a bad assumption, in terms of the real world nature of people. It is not an oxymoron. There is nothing contradictory whatsoever in being rational and being an anarchist (whatever definition of the word you choose).

I really don't see what's so great reason, myself. It's a tool, but one that can (and has) devalue humanity greatly and should be used on things that operate according to reason.

They call that huge group dedicated to the prevention and termination of crime, born from the desire for law and order a "government."

Actually, the modern state has many rĂ´les, but that isn't necessarily the main one. If you actually look at what the state does, you'll find that it spends much effort oppressing rather than fighting crime.