NationStates Jolt Archive

i m ostly agree but Horrocks was british as was 30 corps and the 1st para div we sent loads of man into holland few returning

The Liberation of Holland will always be one of the most important moments in the history of World War II for Canadian Soldiers. As a result of their efforts, the German invasion of the Netherlands was reversed and the Dutch people were freed once more.
Canadian troops had been fighting in France, Italy, Belgium, and in Germany since the D-Day landing. These troops were moved to the Netherlands to push the German troops occupying the northeast back to the sea and to drive German troops in the west back into Germany.

The Liberation campaign was fought on several fronts including:

The Battle of the Scheldt which, when successful, would open up the supply lines from Normady through the port of Antwerp and into the Netherlands. The advance began in October 1944 and by November 8th, the several Canadian divisions with assistance from the 52nd British Division had put an end to all German resistance in the area. The German mines were cleared from the channel and November 28th saw the first shipment convoys passed through the channel lead by the Canadian-built freighter Fort Cataraqui. There were over 12,000 casualties in the First Canadian Army and 6,367 of these were Canadian born soldiers.
The Rhineland Campaign followed the Battle of the Scheldt and had a front over 200 miles long. The campaign took approximately 3 months and featured divisions of Canadian, British, and American soldiers. It was during this time that two Canadians, Sergeant Aubrey Cosens and Major F.A. Tilston, were awarded the Victoria Cross for their gallantry and courage. By March 10, the Germans had blown up the bridges on the Wesel and had retreated from their last main line of defence on the banks of the Rhine.
The Final Phase took place in Northwest Europe. It began on March 23rd when the Allied forces moved across the Rhine and began the assault. Two Canadian divisions (the 9th Canadian Infantry Brigade and the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion) participated in the joint Allied effort. A third Victoria Cross was earned during this effort, this time by F. G. Topham who was a medical orderly. The First Canadian Army's role was to open up supply routes to the north and clear the way into northeastern Netherlands, the coast of Germany and Western Holland.
Fighting had to be called to a halt and negotiations were held to permit relief supplies to be sent into parts of the Netherlands which had been starved over the course of a winter known as the "Hunger Winter". Canadian pilots dropped food packages from the air to the intense relief and joy of the Dutch people and as the Canadian troops liberated town after town, they were faced by the heart-breaking images of starving and beaten people crying and applauding in gratitude for their rescue.


The National Tulip Festival is one of the results of the Canadian interventions on behalf of the Netherlands during WWII. The royal family of Holland during the war fled the country for England in order to avoid capture by the invading German armies. Since the situation in England was equally bad, Queen Juliana decided to take her young family to Canada for safety. They lived in Government House in Ottawa and during their stay, Queen Juliana gave birth to a daughter, Princess Margriet. Since it was law that members of the Dutch Royal Family could not be born off of Dutch soil, the Government of Canada temporarily declared the wing of the Ottawa Civic Hospital where Margriet was born to be a Dutch protectorate (part of Holland) so that the baby could be technically meet the requirements of being born "in" Holland.

As a thank you gesture for providing a place of sanctuary for her and her family, as well as in recognition of the role Canadian soldiers played in the Liberation of the Netherlands, Queen Juliana presented Ottawa with 100,000 tulip bulbs in 1945. The blooming of the blubs became a national tourist attraction and the first official Tulip Festival took place in 1953. Queen Juliana herself attended the Festival during a royal visit in our Centennial year of 1967. Princess Margriet of the Netherlands returned to Ottawa in 1995 to officially open the Festival and to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Liberation of the Netherlands.

Every year, the Dutch people donate 10,000 bulbs and in 1995, an additional 5,000 bulbs for Parliament Hill,1,000 for each provincial and territorial capital and 1,000 for Ste. Anne's hospital in Saint-Anne-de-Bellevue, Que. (the only remaining federal hospital in Canada, administered by Veterans Affairs Canada) Now the Festival features over 2 million blooms.

Source (http://www2.kpr.edu.on.ca/cfps/holland.htm)

As for Holland, I think that one you have to give to us (Canadians) as we almost single handily freed Holland.

That's why I say, the Allies won the war. No one single country could have done it alone.

Of course, no one should discount the Canadian contribution to Holland's liberation, and indeed on D-Day. (They made the furthest inroads)

But to suggest Canada almost single handedly liberated Holland, forgetting the rest of the allies such as the British, Americans and Poles is mere nationalistic folly, and quite insulting to the other allies and their sacrifices made in Holland's liberation.

shall we just agree that all allied nations contributed in every way they could, each in different way which although seem superfluouse now were important at the time
failing that we the brits had the best strategic commanders
i am not saying america didnt cmon eisenhower kicked ass in organising shaef
but the british commander were more strategy based considering at the start of the war the tactics were outdated we catched up pretty qwick and defeated the reichs best commmanders rommell and rundsed (sorry about the spelling) ps for the americans reading this thanks for the jeep the halftrack the quik brue and so much more :sniper:

i agree eisenhower kicked butt but britain has best commanders huh? um monty? he totaly wasted alota good men in market garden for nothing monty sometimes showed he was a good commander but other times would act like a total idiot...

i think Patton was the best american commander he was just so stinking tough

I think the allied forces who fought in WWII would be so pleased to know that 60 years later their decendents would still be bickering about who the most important was! I know it would make me feel all warm and fuzzy!!!

i agree eisenhower kicked butt but britain has best commanders huh? um monty? he totaly wasted alota good men in market garden for nothing monty sometimes showed he was a good commander but other times would act like a total idiot...

That is true, for example with Market Garden. If his plans had worked out right, he would be lauded a hero today for having a plan that saw the ending of the war sooner, as it was, it did not work out, and the allies took a beating.

Also, the British high command ignored a man who saw a large collection of Panzers in a Spitfire recce photo and said the operation would fail thus.

They sent him off on holiday, believing he suffered from stress.

Not really Monty's fault, he merely came up with the final plan not knowing of the pazer refit, but rather certain individuals above him who should have seen those photos as a warning.

Not a British mistake, rather a human one.

North Africa is probably what Monty is most remembered for.

That is true, for example with Market Garden. If his plans had worked out right, he would be lauded a hero today for having a plan that saw the ending of the war sooner, as it was, it did not work out, and the allies took a beating.

Also, the British high command ignored a man who saw a large collection of Panzers in a Spitfire recce photo and said the operation would fail thus.

They sent him off on holiday, believing he suffered from stress.

Not really Monty's fault, he merely came up with the final plan not knowing of the pazer refit, but rather certain individuals above him who should have seen those photos as a warning.

Not a British mistake, rather a human one.

North Africa is probably what Monty is most remembered for.

i agree as i said he sometimes showed he was a good commander and he did do a good job in africa but i cant remember but i think i heard he would make these dumb orders during market garden about tidying up the lines but i cant recall if thats true or not

Of course, no one should discount the Canadian contribution to Holland's liberation, and indeed on D-Day. (They made the furthest inroads)

But to suggest Canada almost single handedly liberated Holland, forgetting the rest of the allies such as the British, Americans and Poles is mere nationalistic folly, and quite insulting to the other allies and their sacrifices made in Holland's liberation.

Actually the Americans didn't really have much to do with liberating Holland, the British yes, but it was mostly Canada. Canada was also the only country to met and succeeded in all of it's objectives on D-Day.

I'm not trying to toot Canada's horn, as much as I'm trying to say, the war was not just about Russia and the USA. Many countries including Canada and many others played a very important role in the war.

For example, some probably little known facts about Canada's role in the war.

World War Two
'The Truly Global Conflict'
1939 - 1945

A Canada of 12 million people put 1.1 million citizens into uniform during WWII

France Crumbles

For a full year, from June 1940 when France fell until June 1941 when the Germans invaded Russia, Canada was the second largest power in the struggle against Hitler's Europe.

After the evacuation at Dunkirk and while Paris was enduring its short-lived siege, a Canadian and a Scottish division were sent to Normandy (Brest) and penetrated 200 miles inland toward Paris before they heard that Paris had fallen and France had capitulated. They retreated and re-embarked for England, and that was a good thing. At this stage of the war, the Germans would probably have destroyed them.

At the same time as the Canadian 1st division landed in Brest, the Canadian 242 Squadron (Douglas Bader's squadron) of the RAF flew their Hurricanes to Nantes (100 miles south-east) and set up there to provide air cover.

After the fall of France, the 1st Canadian Division was the only mobile, armed and fully manned ground division in all of the British Isles, and defence against a German invasion might have fallen squarely on it.

Canada - Arsenal to the War Effort

Canadian war factories were safe from bombing. Canada became an arsenal, and was Britain's chief overseas supplier of war materiel.

Canada did not accept American Lend-Lease aid. Actually Canada ran its own lend-lease program for its allies called "Mutual Aid", supplying its allies with four billion dollars worth of war materiel. A further credit of a billion dollars was given to Britain.

D-Day

Before dawn on D-Day, 230 heavy bombers from RCAF No.6 Group pounded German shore batteries with 860 tons of bombs. And in the daylight hours, RCAF fighter squadrons flew top cover for the invasion beaches.
Fifty Canadian destroyers, frigates and corvettes assisted in covering the invasion, providing anti-submarine escort and bombarding shore targets.

On D-Day, 14,000 Canadians stormed ashore on Juno Beach and were the only force to capture all their initial objectives that day, at a cost of 1000 casualties, of which 350 were fatal.

All I'm saying is many countries gave up much and did just as much per-capita to the war effort as any one else. I use my country as an example because I know my own countries history better than any other country, while not to say I don't know the history of other countries. This whole thread seems to be about pulling one's own cord. Europeans are going to say Russia or the British. Americans are going to say the they were most important.

When many, many other countries did just as important things.



Normandy and the Low Countries

The Battle of Caen and Falaise Gap, the Rhineland Campaign, all saw large-scale participation by Canadian infantry and armour.

THE BATTLE OF THE SCHELDT was particularly bloody. In five weeks the Canadian First Army took almost 6500 casualties. But the "Water Rats" were victorious.

THE LIBERATION OF HOLLAND was almost entirely a Canadian operation. Still today, the gratitude of the Dutch to Canada is overwhelming

The Battle of the Atlantic

In 1943 Canada took over naval control of the north-west Atlantic, and by war's end, 80% of the convoys across the North Atlantic were protected by Canadian escort vessels.

The Royal Canadian Navy operated 373 mostly Canadian-built escort vessels on convoy duty in the North Atlantic, CORVETTES and destroyers for the most part, and sank 27 U-Boats. (Canadian aircraft sank another 25.)

Commonwealth Air Training Plan

Throughout the war, Canada provided training facilities and instruction to airmen from all over the world in the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan, graduating 132,000 pilots and aircrew, over half of whom were Canadian.

U.S. president F.D. Roosevelt called Canada "the aerodrome of democracy".

So all I'm saying is how little people seem to know about what other countries besides the USA and Russia did. Yes, they had the numbers in Russia. And yes, the Americans had an extra two years to prepare than the rest of us. The Americans were able to come in more or less "fresh". The rest of us were battle weary because we had been fighting since 1939.

So, never minimize any one's role in the war. We all did it together. No one country should or does really stand out from any other country. They were all brave men and women with unspeakable courage and we should never forget, we never want it to happen again. At least us who are sane..lol ;)

Source (http://www.nt.net/~toby/ww2.html)

we werent saying what other countries did that didnt have as big of a signifigance on the war didnt matter we.re just arguing about which of the top 3 did the most

we werent saying what other did countries that didnt have as big of a signifigance on the war didnt matter we.re just arguing about which of the top 3 did the most

America was no where near a super power, they only gained it after WWII, and only at the cost of looting Europe. Who do you think created the USA space program? German scientists is who. Russia and America split the spoils, that is how they ended up with super power status. Most advance science America and Russia acquired in the following years after the war in fact was due to the German scientists who they more or less kidnapped, or made back room deals with. While I don't dispute that Hitler's Germany was a very ugly place and we needed to stop them, had they been smarter and not tried to take over Europe they today would be the super power, if you're in university and have access to a history or political science Professor, few would dispute this fact.

i guess your american and i agree that if jerry had the ruskies industry they would have been SUPERIOR in industrial out put
you need to understand the the u.s although a brilliant power at he time could not have taken on the reich if they had the russian industry and the british.

And the Reich could not have hoped to take on America, neither country would have been able to hand a knock-out blow to the other, the USN was to powerful for Germany and would have been for years to come, but even with Russian industry it would have been close, and you have to put Canada on the side of America, that adds quite a bit of Iron Ore, Hydroelectric power, Grain, Beef, etc. to the American Arsenal. And an invasion of Britain would have left Germany unable to look any further west for almost a decade. British plans to defend their country included such things as Anthrax, Mustard Gas on the beaches, a well armed and trained populace, and supplies coming from the commonwealth nations, Indian, Canadian, Australian troops would have all been involved in the defense of Britian, and even American volunteer units.

Puting aside the fact i am Engish.

If you look at it Brittan did actualy contribute most. If britten wasn't involved the USA wouldn't have joined in the fight in Europe, as Russia is a communist state if they did it would most likely be that they would be on the germans side. As well as that in WW2 Britten was used as a staging point for american forces, and if britten wasn't around they would have to try a massive assult, to gain a foot hold in Europe, that would most likely ended up, more then likely, like the charge of the light brigade. Although Russia obviously put more effort in to it the only reason it suvived was because germany was fighting in france and couldn't consentrate all there stregnth on them, this is probably also the case for how england suvived. England also created the naval barrier around the german coast which stoped supplies getting through. Even though russia did make the final advance it was because of Hitler moving a large 'chunk' of his army, that was on the russian front to stop the assult that took place on D-day.

America was no where near a super power, they only gained it after WWII, and only at the cost of looting Europe. Who do you think created the USA space program? German scientists is who. Russia and America split the spoils, that is how they ended up with super power status. Most advance science America and Russia acquired in the following years after the war in fact was due to the German scientists who they more or less kidnapped, or made back room deals with. While I don't dispute that Hitler's Germany was a very ugly place and we needed to stop them, had they been smarter and not tried to take over Europe they today would be the super power, if you're in university and have access to a history or political science Professor, few would dispute this fact.

And then others would also point out that American Technology was rapidly catching up and surpassing that of Germany's in many area's, including such things as bombers, small arms, SONAR, and the big kicker, the A-Bomb.

England - Great Britain, France and all the other countrys, counting the Soviet Union also among thees nations, would not have won the war without the help of America.

Puting aside the fact i am Engish.

If you look at it Brittan did actualy contribute most. If britten wasn't involved the USA wouldn't have joined in the fight in Europe, as Russia is a communist state if they did it would most likely be that they would be on the germans side. As well as that in WW2 Britten was used as a staging point for american forces, and if britten wasn't around they would have to try a massive assult, to gain a foot hold in Europe, that would most likely ended up, more then likely, like the charge of the light brigade. Although Russia obviously put more effort in to it the only reason it suvived was because germany was fighting in france and couldn't consentrate all there stregnth on them, this is probably also the case for how england suvived. England also created the naval barrier around the german coast which stoped supplies getting through. Even though russia did make the final advance it was because of Hitler moving a large 'chunk' of his army, that was on the russian front to stop the assult that took place on D-day.

first off we didnt join the fight only because britain was there we did it because hitler declared war on us right after pearl harbor...

England - Great Britain, France and all the other countrys, counting the Soviet Union also among thees nations, would not have won the war without the help of America.

You say this, but by the time america put it's foot in Britten aready had a blockade around Germany's ports russia was begining to get a force in which to attempt a suisidal, but possible, attack on Germany by land. England after the battle of Britten was gaining air supiriority. As well as this the newly formed 'SAS' was taking out high ranking officers and military and civilinan instalations. the war was going in the 'pre-America' allies direction and America just over balanced the scales. True with out them there'd have been a higher death toll and it'd have gone on for longer.

first off we didnt join the fight only because britain was there we did it because hitler declared war on us right after pearl harbor...

Mabey, but Hitler new that America would join the brittish so they allied with Japan and Korea, who were in fact not bothered with the fight going on in Europe. And as Japan knew that if they allied with germany then America would also attack Germany instead of concentrating all there strength on them.

You say this, but by the time america put it's foot in Britten aready had a blockade around Germany's ports russia was begining to get a force in which to attempt a suisidal, but possible, attack on Germany by land. England after the battle of Britten was gaining air supiriority. As well as this the newly formed 'SAS' was taking out high ranking officers and military and civilinan instalations.

More than that. There were dozens of plans to kill Hitler towards the end of the war, but many of them were abandonned because it became clear that with America's help victory was inevitable. So Hitler would almost certainly have been assassinated if America had not joined.

Mabey, but Hitler new that America would join the brittish so they allied with Japan and Korea, who were in fact not bothered with the fight going on in Europe. And as Japan knew that if they allied with germany then America would also attack Germany instead of concentrating all there strength on them.
A little bit of advice. Your argument will have more weight if you take the time to spell correctly. I can understand a few typos here and there, but your posts are riddled with bad grammar and spelling errors.

More than that. There were dozens of plans to kill Hitler towards the end of the war, but many of them were abandonned because it became clear that with America's help victory was inevitable. So Hitler would almost certainly have been assassinated if America had not joined.

Actually documents released a few years ago show that after D-Day the British decided not to attempt to assassinate Hitler: they considered him more of a handicap than an asset when it came to being put on the defensive.

America was no where near a super power, they only gained it after WWII, and only at the cost of looting Europe. Who do you think created the USA space program? German scientists is who. Russia and America split the spoils, that is how they ended up with super power status. Most advance science America and Russia acquired in the following years after the war in fact was due to the German scientists who they more or less kidnapped, or made back room deals with.

Lets not forget that in both the sciences and the humanities the US and Britain benefited from the immmigration of those who saw what way the wind was blowing pre-War in Germany and wanted no part of it.

Although Russia obviously put more effort in to it the only reason it suvived was because germany was fighting in france and couldn't consentrate all there stregnth on them, this is probably also the case for how england suvived.

This really isn't right: the tide had already turned against the Nazis in the USSR prior to D-Day - as far back as the Battle Of Stalingrad in early '43 in fact. To suggest that the USSR would have fallen if not for the distraction of Normandy is sheer folly.

Actually documents released a few years ago show that after D-Day the British decided not to attempt to assassinate Hitler: they considered him more of a handicap than an asset when it came to being put on the defensive.

OK I didn't know that but it doesn't change my point. Britain had the capability to assassinate Hitler. If it was America joining the war that forced Germany to the defensive, then if they had not joined then Hitler would have been assassinated. If Germany would have been forced on the defensive even without America's offensive then America was not a crucial part of the Allies. I'm not saying they weren't important; they saved a hell alot of lives. I'm just saying they weren't the most important.

Britain had the capability to assassinate Hitler
Had they? I don't think so. If they had the capability to assassinate Hitler, why shouldn't the Germans had the capability to assassinate Churchill or Stalin?

A little bit of advice. Your argument will have more weight if you take the time to spell correctly. I can understand a few typos here and there, but your posts are riddled with bad grammar and spelling errors.


yes i understand this. i am dislexic (why do they make that word so bloody hard to spell) and rubbish at gramma most people tend to be broarder minded and ignore this fact, however the odd small minded people usualy choose to take the micky out of it because they find it funny. How ever i belive that the message i try to get across is clear enough, no matter how bad it is typed up. If not i will be happy explain it to thouse who wish to be one of the relatively few, small minded people.

Had they? I don't think so. If they had the capability to assassinate Hitler, why shouldn't the Germans had the capability to assassinate Churchill or Stalin?

I don't think they did. They had a few tentative plans early in the war which came to nothing, and when the end of the war came and they considered that they might actually be able to assasinate him they were too scared in case an actual competent politician/military commander took his place and managed to drag out the war for another few months.

yes i understand this. i am dislexic (why do they make that word so bloody hard to spell) and rubbish at gramma most people tend to be broarder minded and ignore this fact, however the odd small minded people usualy choose to take the micky out of it because they find it funny. How ever i belive that the message i try to get across is clear enough, no matter how bad it is typed up. If not i will be happy explain it to thouse who wish to be one of the relatively few, small minded people.
No need to be harsh, I meant no offense.

More than that. There were dozens of plans to kill Hitler towards the end of the war, but many of them were abandonned because it became clear that with America's help victory was inevitable. So Hitler would almost certainly have been assassinated if America had not joined.

Actually documents released a few years ago show that after D-Day the British decided not to attempt to assassinate Hitler: they considered him more of a handicap than an asset when it came to being put on the defensive.

The SAS never decided to try and assassinate Hitler, not because they considered him a handicap, but because the SAS where still in the early stages of development and if one of them did try and was caught then the germans would find out about this secret force. But i belive that there where a few attempts on his life by british forces

yes i understand this. i am dislexic (why do they make that word so bloody hard to spell) and rubbish at gramma most people tend to be broarder minded and ignore this fact, however the odd small minded people usualy choose to take the micky out of it because they find it funny. How ever i belive that the message i try to get across is clear enough, no matter how bad it is typed up. If not i will be happy explain it to thouse who wish to be one of the relatively few, small minded people.

I have told you that they always make things hard for people. Lisp requires you to be able to say s, rotic defect requires you to say r and dyslexia is hard to spell (I looked it up it a dictionary just now).
You shouldn't always get annoyed at people when they correct your speeling, they don't know you're dyslexic. I almost relpied to Disciplined Peoples to tell him not to feel guilty when you have a go at him, as I knew you would, but I thought you might get annoyed with me. See, I take care not to annoy you after accidently annoying you before.

The other factor was they felt it would actually drag the war out farther. Even to the final days of the war Hitler enjoyed immense public support. Assassination might have cause enough anger by the germans to compromise surrender.

Had they? I don't think so. If they had the capability to assassinate Hitler, why shouldn't the Germans had the capability to assassinate Churchill or Stalin?

Britain did have the capability to assassinate Hitler, some team of people came up with a brilliant plan near the end of the war that was perfectly feasible but the government decided not to carry it out. I thought it was because they were winning but I was corrected earlier in this thread, apparently it was because Hitler was viewed as more of a hindrance than a help to the German defensive war plans.

This really isn't right: the tide had already turned against the Nazis in the USSR prior to D-Day - as far back as the Battle Of Stalingrad in early '43 in fact. To suggest that the USSR would have fallen if not for the distraction of Normandy is sheer folly.

I believe in a later post i said

Russia was begining to get a force in which to attempt a suisidal, but possible, attack on Germany by land.

by the way when I say suisidal, I mean that it would have been basicaly throughing everything they had at them. Well if it works, it works but the casualties would have been enormus but as the allies attacked Hitler moved the army and gave Russia the gap it needed to attack.

I'm going to have to say the United Kingdom, the Brits hurt the Luftwaffe quite alot (although we lost Sh*t loads of pilots too) and some say the Luftwaffe never recovered from their defeat in Britain. Plus Britain was responsible for bringing in the whole of the British Empire/Commonwealth into the war, Australia, New Zealand, India etc. We fought well in Africa and contributed largely to the liberation of the Netherlands (although it didn't go so well at Arnhem :S).

Ofcourse the Russian and American commitment is undeniable, but you know :)

This really isn't right: the tide had already turned against the Nazis in the USSR prior to D-Day - as far back as the Battle Of Stalingrad in early '43 in fact. To suggest that the USSR would have fallen if not for the distraction of Normandy is sheer folly.

However it is not folly to say that without the US that Germany would not have been on the defensive by 1943. The massive amount of industrial aid given to the Soviets by the United States was critical to their ability to force the German back even pre-Stalingrad. Post-Stalingrad is where this becomes truly critical (Especially in their White Russian '44 campaigns and after), to the Soviets credit it was almost exclusively Soviet material and goods (and a lot of casualties) without US assistance that stalled Typhoon. And I'm not talking about the useless equipment sent to the Soviets (like nearly every type of tank sent by the Brits and Americans, though the Soviet Division that was equipped with the 76mm variant of the Sherman greatly loved their tanks in the attack on Vienna), but critical things, like nearly all of their rolling stock and tons f material for new rails, machine tools to manufacture hoardes of things (mostly tanks), incredible amounts of material for construction (high-grade steel for tanks, aviation gasoline for aircraft, copper, almost exclusively supplied by the US), or trucks (75% of all Soviet trucks were American supplied, the word studebaker became synonomous with truck in the Red Army, and anyone who studies the logistics of the Eastern Front, can thank American industry for giving the Soviets these vehicles, and even then they often outran their supply lines, trucks are also critical for the type of in depth front breakthroughs the Soviets were fond of.) Until late in the war, the Soviets also had a preference for Western aircraft, especially the P-40 (The IL-2 was a great aircraft, but it wasn't fighter).

I'm going to have to say the United Kingdom, the Brits hurt the Luftwaffe quite alot (although we lost Sh*t loads of pilots too) and some say the Luftwaffe never recovered from their defeat in Britain.

It wasn't that they never recovered, it was that it ate up a lot of planes and pilots that could have been used to far greater effect defending Germany, or being used in Barbarossa.

You say this, but by the time america put it's foot in Britten aready had a blockade around Germany's ports russia was begining to get a force in which to attempt a suisidal, but possible, attack on Germany by land. England after the battle of Britten was gaining air supiriority. As well as this the newly formed 'SAS' was taking out high ranking officers and military and civilinan instalations. the war was going in the 'pre-America' allies direction and America just over balanced the scales. True with out them there'd have been a higher death toll and it'd have gone on for longer.

NO, NO, NO! The western allies lost a good size of their weapons at Dunkirk and had it mot been for America and their willingness to sell arms to them they would not have been able to protect their lands.
You missunderstand me, you think I am talking about the American military in the war. I am talking about arms assistance and from that viewpoint America was the nr. 1 contributer to the war.
The Russians even had American made weapons and automobiles.
All this came before 1941.

NO, NO, NO! The western allies lost a good size of their weapons at Dunkirk and had it mot been for America and their willingness to sell arms to them they would not have been able to protect their lands.
You missunderstand me, you think I am talking about the American military in the war. I am talking about arms assistance and from that viewpoint America was the nr. 1 contributer to the war.
The Russians even had American made weapons and automobiles.
All this came before 1941.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the lend-lease program only go into actual operation sometime around September 41? (I believe it was in effect from about March 41, but I'm talking about the first deliveries).

However it is not folly to say that without the US that Germany would not have been on the defensive by 1943. The massive amount of industrial aid given to the Soviets by the United States was critical to their ability to force the German back even pre-Stalingrad.

Indeed, I'm not sidelining the US's contribution, here just pointing out that it wasn't D-Day that turned the tide, which is what I was responding to.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the lend-lease program only go into actual operation sometime around September 41? (I believe it was in effect from about March 41, but I'm talking about the first deliveries).

Could be. My point is that America was contributing to the war in a significant way before they joined the war.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the lend-lease program only go into actual operation sometime around September 41? (I believe it was in effect from about March 41, but I'm talking about the first deliveries).

It kind of depends on how you count it, Lend lease was not the only form of aid given, Britain and France bought up huge amounts of American supplies (and especially frontline aircraft) before Lend-Lease, but these were not exactly aid in anyway except the government allowed it and didn't buy the planes themselves. Roosevelt did start protecting convoys in the Western Atlantic in '41, and when Britain ran out of money he did ensure Lend Lease got passed, but it was not extended to the Soviets (who except for a few odd designs and material, did not buy from the US pre-41) until fall of '41, and didn't start arriving en masse until '42-43.

One thing the U.S gave the allies was decent Commanders. Russia just sent a but-load of soldiers to shoot a gun and catch a bullet, and Britain's best general was Montgomery who led operation market gardens.

Could be. My point is that America was contributing to the war in a significant way before they joined the war.

Assuredly: as I have said several times before on this forum, their neutrality prior to Pearl Harbor was in name alone. It seemed like the wanted to do as much to guarantee allied victory as they could without having to actually get embroiled in the fighting side of things. I continue to be amazed that the sinking of the Reuben James didn't force them into an official war earlier.

One thing the U.S gave the allies was decent Commanders. Russia just sent a but-load of soldiers to shoot a gun and catch a bullet, and Britain's best general was Montgomery who led operation market gardens.

Patton's tactics weren't that different than the Russians. And Market Garden may have been a disaster, but had it worked he would be hailed as a genius, it was poorly trained for and planned (a few days at most), and in the end it was the poorer of two choices, but that doesn't make Monty an idiot. He thrashed Rommel at El Alamein (both defensively and offensively), an all the way across Tripilotonia and Tunisia, effectively led the way on Sicily (on the hardest terrain the island had to offer, against far tougher resistance than Patton faced until after Palermo). He also led the Battle for Western Europe until late August when Eisenhower took over. Britain also had a lot of other commanders who may be recognized as better than Monty, Brooke, Slim, Alexander, Ramsay, to name a few.

And it's not like all American commanders were great, Clark for one was a complete idiot, and Fredendall didn't exactly perform great in the desert.

The other factor was they felt it would actually drag the war out farther. Even to the final days of the war Hitler enjoyed immense public support. Assassination might have cause enough anger by the germans to compromise surrender.
For what, revenging their Führer? If the assassination of Hitler, the Stauffenberg attempt, would have been a sucess the Germans would have no doubt surrendered before 1945. Hitler was the only one who hindered the Germans to stop fighting until the very end.
That's why I don't believe that the Allies ever had the possibility to assassinate him.

[QUOTE=The Sword and Sheild]Patton's tactics weren't that different than the Russians. And Market Garden may have been a disaster, but had it worked he would be hailed as a genius, it was poorly trained for and planned (a few days at most), and in the end it was the poorer of two choices

My Uncles father parachuted in Market Garden and got wounded, he said it was the worst shitfight had ever been in.

Could be. My point is that America was contributing to the war in a significant way before they joined the war.

Yes selling millions of tonnes of steel to Nazi Germany up unto 1938 wasnt very smart was it...

Well, the US have always endorsed the wrong folks until it was too late... :rolleyes:

Had they? I don't think so. If they had the capability to assassinate Hitler, why shouldn't the Germans had the capability to assassinate Churchill or Stalin?

Both leaders were incredibly well gaurded and spent most of their time in the country, under intense security, security you couldnt comprehend, they both had guys watching guys watching guys etc so to speak, to get near them would take incredible amount of effort from an outside party, the only ones allowed near them were well known and trusted.
Hitler spent most of his wartime in a place called wolfs lair I think thats the name, high in the German mountains, Churchill was in some country estate in mid England, not exactly sure where.
As for assassinating Stalin, that would have probably been even harder.

Well, the US have always endorsed the wrong folks until it was too late... :rolleyes:

Yeah if its worth making a buck out of then its worth doing. :rolleyes:

Actually the Americans didn't really have much to do with liberating Holland, the British yes, but it was mostly Canada. Canada was also the only country to met and succeeded in all of it's objectives on D-Day.


The US 101st and 82nd airbourne were sent into Holland, and had British armoured support.

British Paras were also there, and British soldiers and armoured support.

The Polish Paras were there too.

And indeed, Canada succeeded in all it's objectives on D-Day.


I'm not trying to toot Canada's horn, as much as I'm trying to say, the war was not just about Russia and the USA. Many countries including Canada and many others played a very important role in the war.


But yet, again you say Canada almost single handedly liberated Holland.



All I'm saying is many countries gave up much and did just as much per-capita to the war effort as any one else. I use my country as an example because I know my own countries history better than any other country, while not to say I don't know the history of other countries. This whole thread seems to be about pulling one's own cord. Europeans are going to say Russia or the British. Americans are going to say the they were most important.

When many, many other countries did just as important things.

But yet you only add to the nationalistic fervour by claiming Canada almost single handely liberated Holland.



So all I'm saying is how little people seem to know about what other countries besides the USA and Russia did. Yes, they had the numbers in Russia. And yes, the Americans had an extra two years to prepare than the rest of us. The Americans were able to come in more or less "fresh". The rest of us were battle weary because we had been fighting since 1939.


True.



So, never minimize any one's role in the war. We all did it together. No one country should or does really stand out from any other country.


Then please follow your own words, and stop claiming Canada single handedly liberated Holland.


They were all brave men and women with unspeakable courage and we should never forget, we never want it to happen again. At least us who are sane..lol ;)


I throughly agree.

On the subject of the US/UK-Soviet lend lease, the Soviet Union, upon the German invasion, moved all it's industry and workers futher into the Soviet Union to escape from being overrun by German troops.

Where do you think so many T-34's came from?

i agree eisenhower kicked butt but britain has best commanders huh? um monty? he totaly wasted alota good men in market garden for nothing monty sometimes showed he was a good commander but other times would act like a total idiot...

i kind of agree, monty is my hero as is dempdy leigh mallory and patton, monty was a bit of a pre maddona, thinking only he was right. i guess i like him because of his shear arrogance, some of his quotes really point out the true sir bernard :sniper:

And the Reich could not have hoped to take on America, neither country would have been able to hand a knock-out blow to the other, the USN was to powerful for Germany and would have been for years to come, but even with Russian industry it would have been close, and you have to put Canada on the side of America, that adds quite a bit of Iron Ore, Hydroelectric power, Grain, Beef, etc. to the American Arsenal. And an invasion of Britain would have left Germany unable to look any further west for almost a decade. British plans to defend their country included such things as Anthrax, Mustard Gas on the beaches, a well armed and trained populace, and supplies coming from the commonwealth nations, Indian, Canadian, Australian troops would have all been involved in the defense of Britian, and even American volunteer units.

hitler could have taken britain if he wanted, but with a loss of many men, and yes i suppose i wasnt thinking of canada sorry

England - Great Britain, France and all the other countrys, counting the Soviet Union also among thees nations, would not have won the war without the help of America.

no we could have but the war would probably have taken twice as long
if america hadnt fought and just continued pumping in supplies and stuff then it could have been possible to win ijn the europian theater, the pacific however coul not h=ve been taken without the huge sacrifices the u.s paid, all those poor kids charging beaches on islands they had never heard of.
we will remember them.

Originally Posted by Stephistan
Actually the Americans didn't really have much to do with liberating Holland, the British yes, but it was mostly Canada. Canada was also the only country to met and succeeded in all of it's objectives on D-Day.

like we didnt take gold and sword ! cmon canada open your eyes we pumped hollandfull of chaps and tanks and in the end it was a joint canadian american british operation. including the poles and the dutch reistance, not to mention the french commandos

No need to be harsh, I meant no offense.

i am also dyslexic and will gladly retaliate at full sarcastic stength to those who think its funny to laugh at a born dissability that was practactly unknown about untill the 70s

It must be confessed at this time that my dear uncle Adolf was responsible for the defeat of the Axis powers and not any of your so called nation states. This is my solemn duty.