NationStates Jolt Archive

What country gives the most personal liberty to its people? It is always said that the USA is the land of liberty but is this really true? I would like to hear from posters from other countries to how much freedom and liberty you actually have.

It's not the US.
Probably one of those Scandinavian countries. I can't remember which one is which right now.

Netherlands

2 words "legal mariJuana" :D :D :D

Netherlands

2 words "legal mariJuana" :D :D :D

And legal euthanasia!

Personal liberty...probably the netherlands.

Economic liberty: not the netherlands, nor any country in Europe for that matter (an proabably not the US either.)

Socially, probably Amsterdam. Economically, I'll guess Singapore.

I think it used to be Hong Kong. It still might be.

Socially, probably Amsterdam.
That would be a city, not a country.

Socially, until they started running scared like the rest of europe from the muslim fanatics, the netherlands. However, when they cancel a film at the rotterdam film festival because it might create controversy(i.e. piss muslims off) and yet show two films which make accusations just as nasty of the jews, can it truly be considered to have social freedom. Can you truly say that any govt. that would order an artist to remove a mural from his own building because it condemned the murder of Theo van Gogh in non obcene ways allows social freedom?

That would be a city, not a country.
True 'nuff, but I thought I'd get specific since everyone agreed on the Netherlands already.

Socially, until they started running scared like the rest of europe from the muslim fanatics, the netherlands. However, when they cancel a film at the rotterdam film festival because it might create controversy(i.e. piss muslims off) and yet show two films which make accusations just as nasty of the jews, can it truly be considered to have social freedom. Can you truly say that any govt. that would order an artist to remove a mural from his own building because it condemned the murder of Theo van Gogh in non obcene ways allows social freedom?
except the europeans actually have to deal with the everpresent thread of muslim fanatics, who, you know, like to kill people who they think make fun of islam. to the best of my knowledge, the US does not have any serious communities of openly fanatic muslims.

and no, you cant go and arrest people for doing nothing, despite being muslim, so you dont do shit to encourage them, thats how people die. god forbid the europeans actually take a clue instead of just rounding up everyone and shippnig them off the concentration camps *cough* US *cough* which iws what we would do if there were any communities like there are in europe

I would say that socially the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands. Economically, perhaps Singapore.

I would say that socially the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands. Economically, perhaps Singapore.
Hong Kong beats them, I believe.

Socially- Switzerland, Denmark, or the Netherlands

Economically- Singapore, maybe?

Socially and economically... the USA!!!! GO USA GO!!

Anyone who disagrees is a traitor/terrorist/communist.

Socially and economically... the USA!!!! GO USA GO!!

Anyone who disagrees is a traitor/terrorist/communist.
I am a traitor/terrorist/pinko/commie/pimp/drugLord/warLord/evil/pussylover.

I am a traitor/terrorist/pinko/commie/pimp/drugLord/warLord/evil/pussylover.

Yeah but do you disagree with what I said?

I am a traitor/terrorist/pinko/commie/pimp/drugLord/warLord/evil/pussylover.
I bet you could clear churches with just your presence alone!

Socially.. Most likely Netherlands.

Economically..

Singapore's not 'THAT' free, plus the big projects are all hogged by the central Government, especially when it comes to construction.

CHINA. You can make money selling authentic Imitation goods. :D

I understand the position of all the people who have answered the Netherlands because its a pretty tolerant society but to be honest, its easy to be tolerant in a largely homogenous ethnic environment. Recent political fads across europe have demonstrated that at times even the liberal euro's have trouble uintegrating immigrants of different culture. Therefore my answer (purely biased of course) is New Zealand. We just legalized gay marraige (albeit they had to call it 'civil union') and we are jsut nice people all round really. Economically we were among the first countries to adopt neo liberal 'free' market policies, as early as 1984. We also rank very low in corruption scales(unlike SIngapore for instance).

Ireland was pretty high up there if I remember correctly.

No country gives any liberty to anyone. Liberty can only be restricted.

I think it used to be Hong Kong. It still might be.

Hong Kong was still rated #1 for economic freedoms in 2002, the date of the last ranking I found.

The UN's Human Development Report 2004: Cultural Liberty in Today’s Diverse World (http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2004/) ranks Norway #1.

Damn norwegians

Economic Freedom. I think it's still Hong Kong.

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm

LOL...I'll cast both social and economic votes for Burkina Faso :p

It's not the US.
Probably one of those Scandinavian countries. I can't remember which one is which right now.

But we get teh guns though. That counts for a lot.

I say Somalia. No government since 1994. No retrictions at all! Its a party!

But we get teh guns though. That counts for a lot.
Hee.
You do have a point.
Or rather, you no longer need a point, as guns are far more effective than stabbing implements.

But we get teh guns though. That counts for a lot.
Why would they need guns if they are stoned all the time?

Why would they need guns if they are stoned all the time?
Silly, guns are far more effective tools of execution than stoning.

Oh wait, you meant a different sort of stoned.

Why would they need guns if they are stoned all the time?

It's true, the drug laws are mildly retarded.

And legal euthanasia!
and Homo's ;)

Pot is not legal in the Netherlands, nor is it anywhere in the world, it is simply decriminalized, as it is in several other countries.

I would have to agree with the general concensus in that :

socially - Scandinavia, Netherlands & Belgium

economically - Singapore (the question was COUNTRY with most liberty, HK is not a country but an SAR of China)

I am a traitor/terrorist/pinko/commie/pimp/drugLord/warLord/evil/pussylover.
Yeah but do you disagree with what I said?
I'm a proudly evil anarchistic drugged out cult leading pussylovin mac daddy hippie pinko commie terrorist traitor pimp... And yes, I disagree that America is as free of a land of the as it claims.

So, who wants to buy an island and plot to take over the world with me?

USA all the way. Socially and economically. As a white male I have untold freedoms. ;)

Socially and economically... the USA!!!! GO USA GO!!

Anyone who disagrees is a traitor/terrorist/communist.
I like you. You think like me. Plus America lets us have guns and without guns you can't be free because sombody can take your freedom away.

I like you. You think like me. Plus America lets us have guns and without guns you can't be free because sombody can take your freedom away.
is there a laughing smiley?

I like you. You think like me. Plus America lets us have guns and without guns you can't be free because sombody can take your freedom away.

You know who didn't own a gun? Jesus :)

You know who didn't own a gun? Jesus :)
If heaven exists, and if Jesus is there, he certainly owns one now.

We have had discussion of social and economic liberty. For liberty of belief, it is difficult to get freer than Brazil (Brasil if you are from here, but in English this becomes Brassil)

Pot is not legal in the Netherlands, nor is it anywhere in the world, it is simply decriminalized, as it is in several other countries.

I would have to agree with the general concensus in that :

socially - Scandinavia, Netherlands & Belgium

economically - Singapore (the question was COUNTRY with most liberty, HK is not a country but an SAR of China)It is legal in the Netherlands, and in several other countries, and in almost all of eastern Africa.
As for gun laws, Rwanda is the most free. You can get funs for nothing there.
BTW please presise what you are takling about. It looks like you are talking about freedom from the government. In this case, Somalia is #1, as well as in freedom from corporations. But not freedom from fundamentalists. Equator is #1 in freedom from polution I think.

And I never heard anybody say the US was the freest country in the world except from GW Bush. Do other people than him think that in the US?

What country gives the most personal liberty to its people? It is always said that the USA is the land of liberty but is this really true? I would like to hear from posters from other countries to how much freedom and liberty you actually have.


'Land of liberty' is a label created by the US for itself, not other countries...if it was created by other countries and applied to the US, it would make that phrase a lot more valid

You know who didn't own a gun? Jesus :)

Neither did anyone before the mid 1400s. They weren't invented.

I bet you could clear churches with just your presence alone!

he would only clear the church if he was gay...:P they'll accept just about anyone to placate the masses nowadays, except homosexuals :P

But we get teh guns though. That counts for a lot.

oh yes, being able to shoot whoever you want is the first step towards social and economic freedom... :headbang:

...dolt

USA all the way. Socially and economically. As a white male I have untold freedoms. ;)


...but what about a black woman?

I like you. You think like me. Plus America lets us have guns and without guns you can't be free because sombody can take your freedom away.


I live in Canada, I *do not* own any kind of weapon, let alone a friggin gun...and I also do not worry about having my freedoms and civil rights taken away by anyone, let alone my own government. Imagine that....

*That* is freedom. :)

And what about a gay white male?

...what about a gay black woman who doesn't speak English and has no credit history?

I think it's Belgium, we have:

-gay marriages
-abortion
-soft drugs
-euthanasie (take that, Netherlands!)

You know who didn't own a gun? Jesus :)
"But wait, I thought guns were bad. WRONG! In fact, did you know that Jesus and Moses used guns to defeat the Romans?"

...but what about a black woman?
Why, it's simple, they all have to go into prostitution.

You folks seem to be dividing liberty between Social and Economic liberty.

I would argue that the United States presents one of the best mixes of social and economic liberty; not a staggering amount of either, but an average in both that is higher than a great many other nations.

On another note, it's hard to define liberty. At least, here in the U.S., we're still arguing about it.

what about Canada

definately the netherlands! definatly not the US! all the US's freedoms are purely symbolic!

Ireland was pretty high up there if I remember correctly.
No. Abortion, drugs, gay marriage and hateful speech are illegal.

On the economic side, the tax rate over 32,000 euro is 42%

However our corporate tax rate is a mere 12.5%.

definately the netherlands! definatly not the US! all the US's freedoms are purely symbolic!

And that's why John Stewart is actually dead since the right to freedom of speech is only symbolic. :rolleyes:

...but what about a black woman?

Yeah, what about her? Trying to stereotype peoples now?

Yeah, what about her? Trying to stereotype peoples now?
I though we'd already established that the only freedom any black woman has is to go into prostitution. Keep up with the times, dude!

...but what about a black woman?
Ever heard of Affirmaitve Action? It is the only legal kind of discrimination and it only applies to white men. You're just lucky you can't legally be discriminated against.

USA all the way. Socially and economically. As a white male I have untold freedoms. ;)

Bah. You're probably black.

I like you. You think like me. Plus America lets us have guns and without guns you can't be free because sombody can take your freedom away.

The rest of us are pretty free without them.

How sad it must be to live in a country when the loss of all their freedoms is such a tangible possibilty that the must prepare well in advance for the fight to get them back.

The rest of us are pretty free without them.

How sad it must be to live in a country when the loss of all their freedoms is such a tangible possibilty that the must prepare well in advance for the fight to get them back.
And get mercilessly crushed by our own army regardless...

You folks seem to be dividing liberty between Social and Economic liberty.

I would argue that the United States presents one of the best mixes of social and economic liberty; not a staggering amount of either, but an average in both that is higher than a great many other nations.

On another note, it's hard to define liberty. At least, here in the U.S., we're still arguing about it.

U.S. has just about the worst economic liberty (measured in terms of economic mobility) of all industrialized nations. Moreso than in "socialist" Europe, rich Americans (and their kids) stay rich and poor Americans (and their kids) stay poor.

EDIT: Ah, yes, cites. Check out Gary Solon's "Cross-Country Differences in Intergenerational Earnings Mobility" in the Journal of Economic Perspectives.

As of 10 years ago, the US. As of now, some north western European country, in another 10-20 years, maybe the US again.

Cuba.

U.S. has just about the worst economic liberty (measured in terms of economic mobility) of all industrialized nations. Moreso than in "socialist" Europe, rich Americans (and their kids) stay rich and poor Americans (and their kids) stay poor.

EDIT: Ah, yes, cites. Check out Gary Solon's "Cross-Country Differences in Intergenerational Earnings Mobility" in the Journal of Economic Perspectives.

That is so not true. There are so many cases of rich Americans losing everything and poor Americans gaining a lot. Its just that in some inner city areas its hard to break out of that line of poverty, but according to my Russian friend who moved from Russia to England and spent three months in Italy, its much better here than there.

Cuba.

Thats funny.

There's not as libertarian a state that I could cast my vote for . . .

That is so not true. There are so many cases of rich Americans losing everything and poor Americans gaining a lot. Its just that in some inner city areas its hard to break out of that line of poverty, but according to my Russian friend who moved from Russia to England and spent three months in Italy, its much better here than there.

Individual, isolated cases do not make trends. And an anecdote is not evidence. Sure, there are cases of the rich losing everything and the poor winning the lottery in America, but these occurrences are less likely in America than in other industrialized nations. To our credit, we outperform England and South Africa in economic mobility.

But hey, why should you even bother to read the article when you can just call bullshit based on some inaccurate preconceptions you have about the American Dream. That's Gary Solon, in Journal of Economic Perspectives 16, no. 3 (Summer 2002): 59-66.

To our credit, we outperform England and South Africa in economic mobility.


Ugh, really? That is pretty shameful for us English - the one thing I can't stand in a country is where the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor, regardless of ability.

Cuba.

That's funny, last time I checked www.freedomhouse.org, Cuba received a 7 out of 7 for civil liberties and a 7 out of 7 for political freedoms (1 being the most free, 7 being the least free).

That's funny, last time I checked www.freedomhouse.org, Cuba received a 7 out of 7 for civil liberties and a 7 out of 7 for political freedoms (1 being the most free, 7 being the least free).

http://web.amnesty.org/wire/july2002/Cuba

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250291997

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/cub-summary-eng

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/cuba9848.htm

http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2005/table2005.pdf

Ugh, really? That is pretty shameful for us English - the one thing I can't stand in a country is where the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor, regardless of ability.

There are two conflicting studies on English economic mobility, one places England slightly more mobile than the U.S., the other significantly less mobile. (It's measured on a 0-1 scale, with 1 indicating perfect association between parents and children's incomes [poor mobility] and 0 indicating no association [total mobility]. England came in around 0.415 in one study and 0.57 in another, compared to the U.S. 0.43. Sweden is a little over 0.1, Canada is a little over 0.2, for comparison.)

So don't feel bad. The high study might have been off.

What about Australia? How mobile is its economy?

http://web.amnesty.org/wire/july2002/Cuba

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250291997

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/cub-summary-eng

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/cuba9848.htm

http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2005/table2005.pdf

http://www.africancrisis.org/default2.asp (pictures of what Castro's "freedom fighter" buddies did in Angola)

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/09-25-2000/vo16no20_cuba.htm

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/05-22-2000/vo16no11_cuba.htm

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/03-13-2000/vo16no06_children_gulag.htm

http://www.welchreport.com/comment2.cfm?rank_cho=50

http://www.welchreport.com/comment2.cfm?rank_cho=51

http://www.welchreport.com/comment2.cfm?rank_cho=52

http://www.africancrisis.org/default2.asp (pictures of what Castro's "freedom fighter" buddies did in Angola)

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/09-25-2000/vo16no20_cuba.htm

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/05-22-2000/vo16no11_cuba.htm

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2000/03-13-2000/vo16no06_children_gulag.htm

http://www.welchreport.com/comment2.cfm?rank_cho=50

http://www.welchreport.com/comment2.cfm?rank_cho=51

http://www.welchreport.com/comment2.cfm?rank_cho=52

Moreover, read Against All Hope by Armando Valladares.

That's funny, last time I checked www.freedomhouse.org, Cuba received a 7 out of 7 for civil liberties and a 7 out of 7 for political freedoms (1 being the most free, 7 being the least free).

Freedom House is a fascist CIA controlled organisation which is out to destroy all the progressive advances made by the Cuban working class over the last 45 years. There is also no basis in reality for their ratings. Colombia, for example, which has a worse human and civil rights record than Cuba has a rating of 4. Colombia is ruled by the far right fascist dictatorship of Alvara Uribe where trade unionists and human rights activists are brutally tortured and murdered for no reason apart from being considered a threat to global capitalism or to the power of the fascist thugs who claim to be a legitimate government. Cuba is the one of most democratic countries in Latin America where all people benefit from some of the best free education and healthcare in the world, far better than anything in the USA. Cuba also has very progressive social freedoms and is the only Latin American country where abortion is legal. The political system in Cuba is democratic and everyone over the age of 16 can vote for a candidate of their choice to represent them. Candidates are directly nominated by the people and are usually independent of any political party. The Communist Party has no power to select members of the parliament.

Yeah, i'd prefer to live in Cuba than the majority of the far right dicator run countries in South America.

Freedom House is a fascist CIA controlled organisation which is out to destroy all the progressive advances made by the Cuban working class over the last 45 years. There is also no basis in reality for their ratings. Colombia, for example, which has a worse human and civil rights record than Cuba has a rating of 4. Colombia is ruled by the far right fascist dictatorship ot Alvara Uribe where trade unionists and human rights activists are brutally tortured and murdered for no reason apart from being considered a threat to global capitalism or to the power of the fascist thugs who claim to be a legitimate government. Cuba is the one of most democratic countries in Latin America where all people benefit from some of the best free education and healthcare in the world, far better than anything in the USA. Cuba also has very progressive social freedoms and is the only Latin American country where abortion is legal. The political system in Cuba is democratic and everyone over the age of 16 can vote for a candidate of their choice to represent them. Candidates are directly nominated by the people and are usually independent of any political party. The Communist Party has no power to select members of the parliament.

:rolleyes:

Care to back up what you said, Europaland?

Care to back up what you said, Europaland?

Most of the links you have given are to far right propoganda sites which are full of lies designed to discredit Cuban socialism. Here are some unbiased sites which tell the truth about Cuba:

http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/state_and_revolution/cuba.htm
http://www.flonnet.com/fl2202/stories/20050128000306100.htm
http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/democracy.htm
http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/dictator.htm
http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/revol.htm

Most of the links you have given are to far right propoganda sites which are full of lies designed to discredit Cuban socialism. Here are some unbiased sites which tell the truth about Cuba:

http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/state_and_revolution/cuba.htm
http://www.flonnet.com/fl2202/stories/20050128000306100.htm
http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/democracy.htm
http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/dictator.htm
http://www.cuba-solidarity.org/revol.htm

I bet you consider every source that doesn't drop on its knees and worship Castro 'far right propaganda sites.' Anyway, I'm done talking to you. Good day.

Neither sources are unbiased, and Cuba ain't a paradise nor some kind of hell hole. Still, as I say i'd prefer to live there than most places in South America.

Neither sources are unbiased, and Cuba ain't a paradise nor some kind of hell hole. Still, as I say i'd prefer to live there than most places in South America.

Exactly. No source on this planet is 'unbiased.'

Still, I'd like to see his source regarding human rights organizations being "fronts for the CIA," "fascists," etc. I'm sure the source (or sources) will at least be good for a laugh, like everything else he posts.