NationStates Jolt Archive

Prior to the illegal war the Arabs declared on Israel, the territory occasionally called the West Bank was part of Jordan. Now that Israel has claimed that land to keep the Arabs off her back, shouldn't the "refugees" be sent back to their original home country of Jordan?

Jordan doesn't want it's citizens back. Give them the west bank and gaza and let's hope they behave themselves.

Until israel returns to her legal borders the claim of self defense in the military attacks against the palestinians are invalid and completely unfounded and false.

Only after a return to her legal borders will israel be in the moral right.

Well considering the U.N. stole the land from the Palestinians in order to give it to Israel i don't think so. I think both sides are wrong and should both work it out peacefully. Both Israel and The countries around it act like jerks and kill innocents. They should both just coexist, Israel is no different then anyone else.

:fluffle: <- the solution

Until israel returns to her legal borders the claim of self defense in the military attacks against the palestinians are invalid and completely unfounded and false.

Only after a return to her legal borders will israel be in the moral right.

Israel "legal borders" under the Balfour declaration of 1917 include modern-day Israel, "Palestine," and Jordan. Just wanted to point that out.

And in 1949, when Israel gained independence from Britain, their "legal borders" included modern-day Israel and "Palestine."

So, once again, a simple look at historical fact blows away the Arab and Anti-Israeli propaganda.

I believe it was Goebbels who said "Tell people big lies often enough and they accept them as truth."

In short, Israel has always been in the moral right. They have given everything to their Arab citizens, and labored tirelessly to get the Arab countries to accept the "refugees*."

*They are not true refugees, as they are often second- and third-generation ex pats. A refugee is someone who fled their government. Those in the refugee camps in Judea/Samaria (the "West Bank") and Gaza never fled. They were born and raised there.

Well considering the U.N. stole the land from the Palestinians in order to give it to Israel i don't think so. I think both sides are wrong and should both work it out peacefully. Both Israel and The countries around it act like jerks and kill innocents. They should both just coexist, Israel is no different then anyone else.

The UN did not exist when Israel was first offered independence. They did, however, work out a partition plan which the Jews accepted and the Arabs flat-out refused because they would not tolerate a "Zionist entity" on "sacred Arab soil." Funny how that works, isn't it?

No one had the right for a "Zionist Movement" to make a country for jews is wrong, no country should be formed on the basis of a religion it causes problems, and as far as the Illegal war the Arabs fight with Israel, they are both wrong because they both fight for wrong reasons. Israel shouldn't exist and i can say that as a jewish man myself that a Zionist movement is wrong

No one had the right for a "Zionist Movement" to make a country for jews is wrong, no country should be formed on the basis of a religion it causes problems, and as far as the Illegal war the Arabs fight with Israel, they are both wrong because they both fight for wrong reasons. Israel shouldn't exist and i can say that as a jewish man myself that a Zionist movement is wrong

Israel is not a Jewish State. It is, in the sense that the majority of its citizens are Jewish, but it has freedom of religion, so Judaism is not the state religion. If you want to complain about theocratic states, talk about Saudi Arabia, Iran, Oman, the UAE, Algeria, Chad, Yemen, and pretty much any other Arab country, plus Malaysia, etc.

People have a right to believe whatever they want. After being persecuted for centuries, I believe that the Jewish people have earned the right to a nation of their own. They came to the Ottoman province of Palestine in the late nineteenth century, and created a wealthy, prosperous land. Then the Arabs came, attracted by this prosperity.

Israel has as much right to exist as almost every Asian nation, and every African one. All were created as the result of Europe ending its colonial ambitions after World War Two. To say Israel has no right to exist is to say that the only independent countries in the Eastern Hemisphere should be Russia, China, and Japan.

The UN did not exist when Israel was first offered independence. They did, however, work out a partition plan which the Jews accepted and the Arabs flat-out refused because they would not tolerate a "Zionist entity" on "sacred Arab soil." Funny how that works, isn't it?
See the problem with your logic is that the World Zionist Organization had purchased most of the land which made up Israel in 1949. The Arabs who were pissed were the tenant farmers who got kicked off their land by the original Arab landowners in Beirut who made money by selling the land. All the UN did was declare the parcels of land a separate country. Then it was the ARab agressors who invaded and lost their land. If you want to get in the habit of returning land lost in conflicts, then the Polish need to return Danzig to Germany, the Russians need to return Karelia, the US needs to return Texas... The list goes on. The (perhaps sad) truth is that conflict is about land, oftentimes, and "returning" it only sows the seeds of more conflict. And when the land was lost by the agressors there isn't even a moral reason to return it.

See the problem with your logic is that the World Zionist Organization had purchased most of the land which made up Israel in 1949. The Arabs who were pissed were the tenant farmers who got kicked off their land by the original Arab landowners in Beirut who made money by selling the land. All the UN did was declare the parcels of land a separate country. Then it was the ARab agressors who invaded and lost their land. If you want to get in the habit of returning land lost in conflicts, then the Polish need to return Danzig to Germany, the Russians need to return Karelia, the US needs to return Texas... The list goes on. The (perhaps sad) truth is that conflict is about land, oftentimes, and "returning" it only sows the seeds of more conflict. And when the land was lost by the agressors there isn't even a moral reason to return it.

Am I correct in assuming that wasn't addressed at me?

Yes. I am glad you see the truth of the matter, I just clicked the wrong "quote" button. And I missed your sarcasm.

Prior to the illegal war the Arabs declared on Israel, the territory occasionally called the West Bank was part of Jordan. Now that Israel has claimed that land to keep the Arabs off her back, shouldn't the "refugees" be sent back to their original home country of Jordan?

In my opinion, no.

Israel "legal borders" under the Balfour declaration of 1917 include modern-day Israel, "Palestine," and Jordan. Just wanted to point that out.

And in 1949, when Israel gained independence from Britain, their "legal borders" included modern-day Israel and "Palestine."

So, once again, a simple look at historical fact blows away the Arab and Anti-Israeli propaganda.

I believe it was Goebbels who said "Tell people big lies often enough and they accept them as truth."

In short, Israel has always been in the moral right. They have given everything to their Arab citizens, and labored tirelessly to get the Arab countries to accept the "refugees*."

*They are not true refugees, as they are often second- and third-generation ex pats. A refugee is someone who fled their government. Those in the refugee camps in Judea/Samaria (the "West Bank") and Gaza never fled. They were born and raised there.
Bla bla bla bla zionist propaganda bla bla bla bla
so why don't you look at the facts? who gained what in 1948 from who and why?

Bla bla bla bla zionist propaganda bla bla bla bla
so why don't you look at the facts? who gained what in 1948 from who and why?

Uh...interesting.

Israel gained independence from Britain in 1948, and fought the War of Independence in 1949 against Syria, Transjordan, Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia.

I didn't really understand what you meant, though as it was unclear to the "blah blah blahs," and a random reference to Zionist propaganda. Propaganda is bad. Truth is not.

Bla bla bla bla zionist propaganda bla bla bla bla
so why don't you look at the facts? who gained what in 1948 from who and why?

And who got what from whom in 1949? When it was clear that Israel was going to win it's war for independance/survival, most of the Muslim/Arab nations in the area either passed laws saying that Jews could not sell property for full value or not at all. They then either officially kicked the Jews out, or they did nothing to stop their own populations from theatening the Jews within an inch of their lives. The Jews fled to Israel. Faced with a huge population influx, the Israeli Knesset passed a law in 1950 which declared that all unclaimed land in the newly won territory would be forfeited to the government within a certain period time. The Palestinians were not forced off, nor were they stopped from coming back before that law was passed, more than a year after the war was over. They knew what was coming, and they still stayed out. Israel is fully legitimate.

Israel "legal borders" under the Balfour declaration of 1917 include modern-day Israel, "Palestine," and Jordan. Just wanted to point that out.

And in 1949, when Israel gained independence from Britain, their "legal borders" included modern-day Israel and "Palestine."

So, once again, a simple look at historical fact blows away the Arab and Anti-Israeli propaganda.

I believe it was Goebbels who said "Tell people big lies often enough and they accept them as truth."

In short, Israel has always been in the moral right. They have given everything to their Arab citizens, and labored tirelessly to get the Arab countries to accept the "refugees*."

*They are not true refugees, as they are often second- and third-generation ex pats. A refugee is someone who fled their government. Those in the refugee camps in Judea/Samaria (the "West Bank") and Gaza never fled. They were born and raised there.
Before I reply to this, I want to make a quick note to whomever said that Israel is not a Jewish state. That is a radically incorrect statement. Not only does Jewish religious law factor into the state of Israel's laws, there is also the fact that any person of Jewish heritage can move to Israel and immediately become a citizen. It is for those reasons that Israelc an easily be called a Jewish state. Also, make sure you note the difference between Islamist states, and Islamic Fundamentalist States. The difference is quite important. Its the difference between Turkey and Iran for instance.


I'm going to work backwards on your post. First of all, a refugee can technically be of any generation as all a refugee is is someone who has "fled persecution", and as long as they are not a citizen of where they are currently residing. So long as they are not citizens, and their country is occupied, they are refugees.

In World War One, the British Empire promised the Sharif Husayn of Mecca a fully independant state comprising all Arab lands currently under Ottoman control (excluding certain Christian areas of Lebanon), including the territories now comprising Saudi Arabia, the Sinai peninsula, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, parts of Iran, south east Turkey, and Israel, in exchange for a revolt against the Ottomans. However, the English's agreement with the French (Sikes-Picot) was ultimately followed instead, with the English ultimately granting Sharif Husayn's son the throne of the new country of Iraq as a placating measure.

In 1949, when the State of Israel was created by the UN (Israel never really won its independance , it was given it by the UN) the boundaries of Palestine were in fact significantly larger than the territories now known as the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank, with the proposed Palestinian state in fact controlling an extension of both those territories (along with a Northern territory slightly larger than the Golan Heights) that in some areas would be separated by only a handful of miles. The problem was that whereas the Palestinian-Jews were well organized, the Palestinian-Arabs had no clear leader, and ultimately the decision to "reject" the proposal was made by outsiders (either the Amir of Mecca, or another figure along those lines, I couldn't find exactly who it was).

I don't know where you got your information from, but it was extremely incorrect. For a mediocre map that nonetheless gives a good idea on the original intended boundaries, look here http://www.masada2000.org/1947mapa.gif
and thats actually a pro-Israel site, so take those boundaries as you will.

Israel is not a Jewish State. It is, in the sense that the majority of its citizens are Jewish, but it has freedom of religion, so Judaism is not the state religion. If you want to complain about theocratic states, talk about Saudi Arabia, Iran, Oman, the UAE, Algeria, Chad, Yemen, and pretty much any other Arab country, plus Malaysia, etc.

People have a right to believe whatever they want. After being persecuted for centuries, I believe that the Jewish people have earned the right to a nation of their own. They came to the Ottoman province of Palestine in the late nineteenth century, and created a wealthy, prosperous land. Then the Arabs came, attracted by this prosperity.

Israel has as much right to exist as almost every Asian nation, and every African one. All were created as the result of Europe ending its colonial ambitions after World War Two. To say Israel has no right to exist is to say that the only independent countries in the Eastern Hemisphere should be Russia, China, and Japan.

The difference is that Israel's government was given to the Zionists, not the Muslim majority. Britain favored the Jews because of the holocaust and because they were European and thus let them immigrate despite Palestinian fears that the Jews would become a majority and rule. While I think it would have been ridiculous to stop the immigration, the fact is that the only other British colonies that turned out like that were the ones that started as prison camps.

By the way, the Arabs came to Israel in the late 7th century, long before Jewish immigration. The Jews did work together and became more prosperous than their neighbors when they did immigrate, however. In the chess game of warfare they are literally guilty of Kibbutzing, as Kibbutz was originally the word for Jewish co-ops in Palestine.

Just to address other's arguments on how Israel got the current Palestinian territories: basically shortly after Israel was formed tensions started over control of the Jordan river. These tensions eventually erupted into a series of attacks on Israel by the surrounding states. Israel kicked everyone's asses and took some extra territory in the bargain which conveniently gave them control of the Jordan's headwaters.

Uh...interesting.
Israel gained independence from Britain in 1948, and fought the War of Independence in 1949 against Syria, Transjordan, Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia.
I didn't really understand what you meant, though as it was unclear to the "blah blah blahs," and a random reference to Zionist propaganda. Propaganda is bad. Truth is not.History does not start in 1948, does it? The sentence "Israel gained independence from Britain in 1948" sounds so very unlike to what really happened. The truth is that the Jews declared statehood in 1948 in a land that was "given" to them by a newly installed institution called UN. The point is though, that the UN had no justification to vote down those who were actually affected by the installation of the artificial structure of a Jewish state in the Middle East and to give away land that was inhabited by others for over 1500 years. And why was there a UN division plan for Palestine at all and why did the division plan give the infertile land to the Arabs and the agriculturally valuable land to the Jews? I tell you why: because the UN had a guilty conscience after what the Germans did, and then they decided to let the Arabs, who now would for the first time have had the chance to gain unity after centuries of oppression, pay for it instead of finding a solution in Europe.

Uh...interesting.

Israel gained independence from Britain in 1948, and fought the War of Independence in 1949 against Syria, Transjordan, Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia.

I didn't really understand what you meant, though as it was unclear to the "blah blah blahs," and a random reference to Zionist propaganda. Propaganda is bad. Truth is not.
Exactly. And Israel gained territory from aggressor nations, extending their borders to a defensible size. Even if they were beyond defensible, it is the fault of the aggressors who started the war that they lost territory, and if those nations were honestly concerned with resolving the conflict, and not just in hating Jews, they would accept their displaced citizens, and the world would go on in peace.

History does not start in 1948, does it? The sentence "Israel gained independence from Britain in 1948" sounds so very unlike to what really happened. The truth is that the Jews declared statehood in 1948 in a land that was "given" to them by a newly installed institution called UN. The point is though, that the UN had no justification to vote down those who were actually affected by the installation of the artificial structure of a Jewish state in the Middle East and to give away land that was inhabited by others for over 1500 years. And why was there a UN division plan for Palestine at all and why did the division plan give the infertile land to the Arabs and the agriculturally valuable land to the Jews? I tell you why: because the UN had a guilty conscience after what the Germans did, and then they decided to let the Arabs, who now would for the first time have had the chance to gain unity after centuries of oppression, pay for it instead of finding a solution in Europe.
As I have posted elsewhere, the land which was "given" to the Jews was already owned by them. Most of the land "given" in the UN action had been purchased by the World Zionist Organization. All the UN did was declare private land a new country. It is the fault of poor organization and bad luck that the Arabs didn't buy the more fertile land. And in fact, it was Arab landowners in Syria, Lebanon and elsewhere who sold the land to the Jews in the first place.

...land that was inhabited by others for over 1500 years. And why was there a UN division plan for Palestine at all and why did the division plan give the infertile land to the Arabs and the agriculturally valuable land to the Jews? I tell you why: because the UN had a guilty conscience after what the Germans did, and then they decided to let the Arabs, who now would for the first time have had the chance to gain unity after centuries of oppression, pay for it instead of finding a solution in Europe.

The Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. The Arabs first passed through the area in the seventh century, though they did not stay because the land was worthless desert. Once the British took Palestine from the Ottomans, more Jews were able to immigrate, and they created prosperity like the region had not seen in centuries. Then the Arabs came back to the region because of the wealth created by the Jews.

As for the Arabs being oppressed, when did that happen prior to the establishment of the totalitarian states in the second half of the twentieth century?

My solution:

http://www.unlc.biz/images/usmap.gif

The Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years. The Arabs first passed through the area in the seventh century, though they did not stay because the land was worthless desert. Once the British took Palestine from the Ottomans, more Jews were able to immigrate, and they created prosperity like the region had not seen in centuries. Then the Arabs came back to the region because of the wealth created by the Jews.What number of Jews lived in Palestine for thousands of years in 1948? A relatively small number, the other jews had decided to live in Europe a long time ago.And since when does one's origin constitute a right to come back and drive those out who then live in the land? And when did Arabs "come back" to the region? They never went away. Instead the Jews went away and then tried to come back driven by dubious ideologies.
And as for the colonial powers' dealings after 1914: why weren't the Arabs allowed to create a unified Arab state after the downfall of the Ottoman Empire? The answer is simple: oil. Britain, France, and later the US did everything to work towards creating petty states in the region in order to keep the Arabs from building a super-state in the Middle East that would control the wealth of natural ressources in the region. Instead they endorsed regimes that could be remote-controlled through stimulation of their greed. And the implantation of a Jewish state in the Middle East was just another means to tighten the newly drawn-up borders.

As for the Arabs being oppressed, when did that happen prior to the establishment of the totalitarian states in the second half of the twentieth century?Go read a book on the relationship of Turks and Arabs during the rule of the Ottoman Empire.

Instead the Jews went away and then tried to come back driven by dubious ideologies.Actually they were driven back by being kicked out of every other Arab country.And as for the colonial powers' dealings after 1914: why weren't the Arabs allowed to create a unified Arab state after the downfall of the Ottoman Empire? The answer is simple: oil. Britain, France, and later the US did everything to work towards creating petty states in the region in order to keep the Arabs from building a super-state in the Middle East that would control the wealth of natural ressources in the region. Instead they endorsed regimes that could be remote-controlled through stimulation of their greed.Perhaps. But then nothing keeps the Arabs from uniting into this utopia but themselves. They have even tried it, with Syria and Egypt (and Iraq for a while) becoming briefly unified in the 50s. It failed miserably. Go read a book on the relationship of Turks and Arabs during the rule of the Ottoman Empire.The Turks also massacred the Christian Armenians, and the Jews, and the Greeks. They have a pretty poor track record in general, but we are talking here about the Jews and the Arabs.

For a mediocre map that nonetheless gives a good idea on the original intended boundaries, look here http://www.masada2000.org/1947mapa.gif
and thats actually a pro-Israel site, so take those boundaries as you will.

For the record, it's not quite accurate to call masada2000.org a "pro-Israel" site, it is a Jewish extremist site that threatens violence against "self-hating Jews"- several of whom I know personally.

That's like calling a KKK site "pro-America".

(Or, as you mentioned, not distinguishing between an Islamic State and an Islamic Fundementalist State.)

For the record, it's not quite accurate to call masada2000.org a "pro-Israel" site, it is a Jewish extremist site that threatens violence against "self-hating Jews"- several of whom I know personally.

That's like calling a KKK site "pro-America".

(Or, as you mentioned, not distinguishing between an Islamic State and an Islamic Fundementalist State.)
Which was really the reason I used it. Considering their extreme bias, that map really does illustrate the misconceptions of the situation on the ground...actually it really works against the argument of the site in general. But considering they are an extremist organization, one can't expect them to be too intelligent.

Which was really the reason I used it. Considering their extreme bias, that map really does illustrate the misconceptions of the situation on the ground...

But if you don't point out that it's extremist and simply label it as "pro-Israel", you're being dishonest.