NationStates Jolt Archive

Christians fleeing for their lives


By Scheherezade Faramarzi
ASSOCIATED PRESS


AIN KAWA, Iraq — For the Toma brothers, life was getting more precarious by the day.
One of them had survived two shootings. Their cousin had been killed. A compact disc of beheadings named them as American agents. "Long Live Saddam Hussein" and "Allahu Akbar" had been painted on their church. It was clearly time to flee.
Too late. As Hani and Khaled Toma backed their car out of the garage to make the two-hour drive from Mosul to the relative safety of Irbil on Sept. 2, a dozen attackers riddled the brothers' red BMW with bullets, adding two more to the dozens of members of Iraq's tiny Christian community who have been slain in the post-invasion bloodbath.
In the past year, about 100 families from Mosul have taken refuge in Ain Kawa, a small Christian suburb of the northern Kurdish city of Irbil. Hundreds have fled to other Kurdish-protected villages and towns.
Photos of Hani, 33, and Khaled, 31, hung on the walls of their family's home away from home. Their mother, Hassina Toma, dug into a black plastic bag and produced the death certificates and police photos of her two sons slumped in the car.
She told of frantically banging on the doors of the hospital morgue to see their bodies, and of burying them quickly and furtively, hurried along by a priest fearful of attracting unwanted attention.
Her surviving sons couldn't attend, so great was the risk. A quick prayer and it was over. "It all lasted less than a quarter of an hour," she said.
The funeral was held in Bartala, a town near Mosul where about 10 Christians have been killed, including Tar Butros, the Tomas' 20-year-old cousin.
She and two other women, cleaners at a U.S. military base in Mosul, were fatally shot as they traveled home from work by bus.
For the brothers, the most direct threat came in a CD titled "Spies," which was circulating in Mosul and showed three Christians being interrogated by a group calling itself the Salahudin al-Ayoubi Brigade and then decapitated.
One of the victims claimed to be an informant for the Americans and named all five Toma brothers as collaborators.
The parents say Hani Toma was a businessman, and deny any of their sons worked for the Americans.
While they were burying their sons, the home in Mosul where they had lived for 40 years and in which all the boys were born was set on fire. Raad Toma, 32, had been targeted twice, the first time on a July afternoon.
"I was chatting with friends on our street corner. Two masked men walked toward us and shot us with their pistols and fled," he said. He was hit in the stomach and the arm. Two of his friends also were injured.
A few weeks later, partially recovered, he went out into the street again. A car with five men inside drove by, opening fire on him and two other Christians. A bullet pierced his left leg, damaging a nerve. That is when he moved to Ain Kawa.
"I was afraid they would come to our house and kill us all," he said.
The Toma family lived in Al Sa'ah, long a predominantly Christian neighborhood of Mosul but in recent years home to increasing numbers of Muslims.

Just wanted to point out early in the thread - before the monkeys come in - that this kind of behavior is not proper to Islam. There is no way to reconcile such behavior and still call yourself Muslim.

Religious fanatics of any stripe are scary.

Just wanted to point out early in the thread - before the monkeys come in - that this kind of behavior is not proper to Islam. There is no way to reconcile such behavior and still call yourself Muslim.

I think you are quite correct, K. Although I'm admittedly certainly no expert on Islam, what little I do know seems to fly in the face of this sort of behavior. Whatever happened to the Muslim concept of "people of The Book?"

I think you are quite correct, K. Although I'm admittedly certainly no expert on Islam, what little I do know seems to fly in the face of this sort of behavior. Whatever happened to the Muslim concept of "people of The Book?"

It's still alive and well, but you'll never see news reports of Muslims doing anything good. Nowdays, the winds blow in the direction of the Muslim as murderous cave-dwelling ogre.

If 1 billion Muslims did an act of great good and 1 Muslim shot a little Christian girl in the face, guess which story makes the news?

Aih.. Fanatics. :(

It's still alive and well, but you'll never see news reports of Muslims doing anything good. Nowdays, the winds blow in the direction of the Muslim as murderous cave-dwelling ogre.

If 1 billion Muslims did an act of great good and 1 Muslim shot a little Christian girl in the face, guess which story makes the news?

I know. Strange, is it not, that we veterans accuse the media of doing the same thing with us, homeless veterans being one example. And if a guy who goes on a murderous rampage also just happens to be a veteran, guess what the press never fails to mention? Sigh.

I think that
if a richer Muslim Country...with acces to infinetely better weapons than my people...would bomb and destroy my people...and then send an occupation Army...and try to elect a Pupet...

I would make inimagable things to Muslims...whenever I can...
and I would also target the Pupets...

I know. Strange, is it not, that we veterans accuse the media of doing the same thing with us, homeless veterans being one example. And if a guy who goes on a murderous rampage also just happens to be a veteran, guess what the press never fails to mention? Sigh.

Exactly. It's a sad state of affairs, but if you try to make them correct it, you get labelled a "liberal PC thug".

They do get it right sometimes, though. Remember the Oklahoma bombing? Instantly, the media started screaming about Muslim terrorists. When they found out it was a white christian guy, they said, "Tim McVeigh killed people because he was an asshole". I find it strange that they didn't call him a "Christian Terrorist".

In short, if a white Christian guy kills people, it's because he's an asshole. If a Muslim kills people, it's because he's Muslim. Way to go, media!

I think that
if a richer Muslim Country...with acces to infinetely better weapons than my people...would bomb and destroy my people...and then send an occupation Army...and try to elect a Pupet...

Thus probably starting WWIII. :(

Just wanted to point out early in the thread - before the monkeys come in - that this kind of behavior is not proper to Islam. There is no way to reconcile such behavior and still call yourself Muslim.

Actually if you look at the Koran it can be divided into to chunks, the section that was written before Mohommad went to Mecca and the section that was written after he went to Mecca. The section before preaches tolerance and wotnot and the section after preaches "convert or kill". Also the in the Koran's teachings the newest teachings supercede any old ones if a new and old law contradict one another. Thus all this killing by Muslims is perfectly legal and fine in their eyes. They just preach different parts of the Koran depending on who they are talking to, the peace and tolerance part to us and the "convert or kill" part to each other.

Thus probably starting WWIII. :(
My hypotetically Poor non-Muslim Country does not have nukes...and the Hypotetically Muslim ocupation Army is very-very Rich and Powerful...they are the world SuperPower...

Exactly. It's a sad state of affairs, but if you try to make them correct it, you get labelled a "liberal PC thug".

They do get it right sometimes, though. Remember the Oklahoma bombing? Instantly, the media started screaming about Muslim terrorists. When they found out it was a white christian guy, they said, "Tim McVeigh killed people because he was an asshole". I find it strange that they didn't call him a "Christian Terrorist".

In short, if a white Christian guy kills people, it's because he's an asshole. If a Muslim kills people, it's because he's Muslim. Way to go, media!

Sigh. Well, as Thomas Jefferson said, "were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate for a moment to prefer the latter." I would too, but with serious reservations.

The section before preaches tolerance and wotnot and the section after preaches "convert or kill".

NO IT DOES NOT! Give a source on this because, frankly, you're talking out of your ass. No part of the Qur'an justifies any killing except the unavoidable casualties in war - and, about that, the Qur'an specifically says not to kill women or children in war.

Actually if you look at the Koran it can be divided into to chunks, the section that was written before Mohommad went to Mecca and the section that was written after he went to Mecca. The section before preaches tolerance and wotnot and the section after preaches "convert or kill". Also the in the Koran's teachings the newest teachings supercede any old ones if a new and old law contradict one another. Thus all this killing by Muslims is perfectly legal and fine in their eyes. They just preach different parts of the Koran depending on who they are talking to, the peace and tolerance part to us and the "convert or kill" part to each other.

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the Koran. Could you give me some examples that prove this point?

NO IT DOES NOT! Give a source on this because, frankly, you're talking out of your ass. No part of the Qur'an justifies any killing except the unavoidable casualties in war - and, about that, the Qur'an specifically says not to kill women or children in war.

Hmm. That was my understanding also. I suspect that the Qur'an is like many other religious texts, including the Bible, from which people can pick and choose to justify their actions. I find it sad in the extreme that so many truly awful things have been done in Allah's and God's and Yahweh's name. Do you suppose we will all ever learn? :(

That is disturbing - considering their former foreign minister and deputy prime minister under Saddam, was a Christian. There were others too in Saddam's regime. Well, that may be why they are attacking them now, I guess...

But what is even MORE disturbing is that there has been strikes against alcohol shops in Baghdad (owned by christians, no doubt)!!! Alcohol never harmed anybody! Leave alcohol be!

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the Koran. Could you give me some examples that prove this point?

Sorry for not replying sooner, sometimes the forum won't let me post, not sure why.

Anyway, fyi, when I type something like (5:21-34) that means book (or Sura) 5 verses 21-34 of the Koran. So, moving on, examples, I will admit that I am not an expert of the Koran (the muslims beelieve that you can only truly understand the Koran in it is read in Arabic) but I think I have a firm grasp (or relatively firm grasp) of what I am talking about. I just realized this could be a long post. Also you can find a copy of the Koran online here http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/ and follow along. Ok, enough chatting, lets get to it.

From reading these verses (and actually READ them) you will see that Muslim beliefs fall into line as follows:
There are two camps: House of Islam (muslim believers) and House of War (everyone else).
Anyone who is not a Muslim is assumed to be rejecting Islam.
Rejecting Islam is attacking Islam, Mohammed and God.
Attacking Islam makes you the enemy.
Attacking suck and enemy under any feasible circumstance qualifies as self-defense and is condined in the Koran and hadiths.
Since this violence is only in self-defense, Islam is a religion of "peace".
Now, lets see some actual verses.
(8:12-13)
(2:121)
(61:9)
(8:42-43)
(2:190-191)
(8:40)
(8:65 & 68)
(4:89)
(4:47)
(4:141)
(4:74)
etc...

You can see a list of all the "war verses" in Don Richardson's book pages253-254). But if you take the time to read the Koran you will see that it is not a religion of peace and remember to take note about the later books taking precedance over the old if something contradicts.

If you are interested in knowing more try the following books:

Speaking the Truth in Love to Muslims by Roland Cap Ehlke (Fair appraisal of Islam)

The Secrets of the Koran by Don Richardson (slanted towards Christianity)

The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Koran by Shaykh Sarwar and Brandon Toropov (slanted towards Islam)

Why I am not a Muslim by Ibn Warraq (written by a former Muslim, not Christian, very fair and makes irrefutable points)

Basically I read the Koran and read the books listed above (I liked Warraq's the best, very well written, clear, and consise). I am not pulling this out of my ass, this is a conclusion I came to after research and study. You do not have to agree but I at least reccomend that you research for yourself before you come to any conclusions.

It's still alive and well, but you'll never see news reports of Muslims doing anything good. Nowdays, the winds blow in the direction of the Muslim as murderous cave-dwelling ogre.

If 1 billion Muslims did an act of great good and 1 Muslim shot a little Christian girl in the face, guess which story makes the news?
the latter, unless the first billion saved 100 people each from a burning building

I think that
if a richer Muslim Country...with acces to infinetely better weapons than my people...would bomb and destroy my people...and then send an occupation Army...and try to elect a Pupet...

I would make inimagable things to Muslims...whenever I can...
and I would also target the Pupets...
Sooo,you'd kill innocent children. Nice to know.

To be fair to the Iraqi's and Muslims in general, I should point out the following message on this matter issued by Grand Ayatullah Sistani (http://www.sistani.org/messages/eng/bay9.htm)


In The Name of Allah The Merciful The Most Compassionate


As part of the cycle of criminal acts witnessed in beloved Iraq, targeting its unity, stability and independence, a number of Christian churches in Baghdad and Mosul were viciously attacked - leading to tens of innocent victims falling dead and wounded as well as the destruction of many public and private properties.

While we disapprove and condemn such abhorrent crimes and see the necessity to consolidate efforts and cooperation by everyone – government and people – in order to stop attacks against Iraqis and root out the attackers; we stress the need to respect the rights of Christians and other religious minorities. Among these rights are their right to live in their country, Iraq, in peace and security.

We ask Allah The Almighty, The Omnipotent, to protect all Iraqis from harm and misfortune and to bless this beloved country with security and stability, He is All Hearing and [He] Answers Prayers.


Office of Ayatullah Seestani – Najaf

15 Jumada al-Thani 1425
2 August 2004

(8:12-13)
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels with the message: "I am with you: give firmness to the believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them. This is because they contended against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment."

First of all, it's nothing more than an instruction on how to deal with an enemy. If a guy is coming up to you with sword in hand and wearing armor, you find the weaknesses in the armor (which by design at the time, the neck was not very well protected) or you disable the hand. A man with no fingers cannot swing a sword at you. War happens. Islam is a religion of peace, but it does recognize that sometimes you have to defend yourself.

(2:121)
Those to whom we have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: they are the ones that believe therein: those who reject faith therein - the loss is their own.

How the hell is that violent?

(61:9)
It is He who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest it.

Again ... how is that violent? If you mean the "proclaim it over all religion", then I think you're reading that wrong. It says "religion" (singular) not "religions" (plural).

(8:42-43)
Remember ye were on the hither side of the valley, and they on the farther side, and the caravan on the lower ground than ye. Even if ye had made a mutual appointment to meet, ye would certainly have failed in the appointment; but thus ye met, that Allah might accomplish a matter already enacted; that those who died might die after a clear sign had been given, and those who lived might live after a clear sign had been given. And verily Allah is He who heareth and knoweth all things. Remember in thy dream Allah showed them to thee as few; if He had shown them to thee as many, ye would surely have been discouraged, and ye would surely have disputed in your decision; but Allah saved you for He knoweth well the secrets of all hearts.

Violent? Where? By who's interpretation are these passages violent?!

(2:190-191)
Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. Slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they first fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward for those who suppress faith.

So you're saying Muslims aren't allowed to defend themselves? Islam is a religion of peace, but if a Muslim is attacked, we don't just lie down and take it. Would you rather we just cowed? Actually, judging by your posts in this thread, you would like it.

(8:40)
If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your protector - the best to protect and the best to help.

If who refuses what? This passage makes no sense without the preceding. It's further proof that you haven't actually read the Qur'an, you're just copy/pasting from anti-Islamic websites.

(8:65 & 68)
65: If thou dost question them, they declare with emphasis: "We were only talking idly and in play." Say: "Was it at Allah, and His signs, and His Messenger, that ye were mocking?"

Question who?! This makes no sense by itself.

68: Allah hath promised the Hypocrites, men and women, and the rejecters of Faith the fire of Hell: Therein shall they dwell; sufficient is it for them; for them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment.

Where's the violence? Just how does this command anyone to go cut people's heads off on video? This is just a warning and it is Allah, not man, who punishes.

(4:89)
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they; so take not allies from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah from what is forbidden. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take no allies or supporters from their ranks.

This is just good common sense, man. If you came into my house and started trying to convert me or my children away from Islam, I'd react very harshly towards you and kick you out. If you then came to me pretending that you became Muslim in a ruse to continue your efforts to sway me and my family away from Allah, then my reaction would be even more harsh. That's just reality. Let people have their faith and stop spreading your hatred and lies.

You're sitting here in this thread lieing about people and you just expect these people to cow and say "Oh, Lawdy, Massah! Plase forgive us! We is a ugly and violent people. We should just let you all walk all over us and spit on us like good cattle!"? Well ... no. I cow for no man.

You know what? Screw it. I'm not finishing. You've clearly never read Qur'an and have no idea what you're talking about.

I have, however, proven that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Islam and hopefully that will be enough to keep people whom you try to speak to about Islam well away from you.

Reading the thread title, I hoped lions would somehow be involved. Colour me disappointed.

<snip really long list 'o quotes>


Wow... Fire, brimstone, god's wrath, ....In other words.... the Qu'ran reads pretty much exactly like the old testament!


Of course, what nobody realizes is that in actual fact one was actually the scripted sequal to the other written in the days when Goldwin and Meyer were still trying to get moving pictures to work using rock cutouts and oil lamps....

Damn jews were trying to take over the mass entertainment business even then!!


:D

(note: to any who take that seriously - please lighten up BEFORE responding. I think I managed to skewer all three religions equally)

Wow... Fire, brimstone, god's wrath, ....In other words.... the Qu'ran reads pretty much exactly like the old testament!

Lol ... yes, well, it does have its moments. Like any good religion, though, you gotta have the plot twists and action sequences. Otherwise, it's just an instruction manual and, well, those are boooooring.

Lol ... yes, well, it does have its moments. Like any good religion, though, you gotta have the plot twists and action sequences. Otherwise, it's just an instruction manual and, well, those are boooooring.


Formulaic AND boring?


DEFINITELY a precursor to Hollywood!

:D

Formulaic AND boring?


DEFINITELY a precursor to Hollywood!

:D

You should see the production notes!

Basically I read the Koran and read the books listed above (I liked Warraq's the best, very well written, clear, and consise). I am not pulling this out of my ass, this is a conclusion I came to after research and study. You do not have to agree but I at least reccomend that you research for yourself before you come to any conclusions.
You know, with enough research and study, you could prove the same things about Christianity...

"I find the Law of Fives to be more and more manifest the harder I look."

When you set out to find proof of something, such as that Islam as a religion promotes violence and a "convert or die" attitude, you find it by looking only for things that prove it and ignoring the rest

Hell, Islam is 600 years older than Christianity, and just what were Christians doing 600 years ago? Marching across the world and converting, enslaving, and killing everyone they encountered all along the way...

Islam now, like Christianity back then, is little more than a convenient justification for their actions. This is why organized religion and blind faith are so dangerous, because your faith no longer resides in the religion, but in the people teaching you the religion, and if you do not fully grasp the true teachings of the religion, it is far too easy for them to insert their own false teachings.

Many Americans claim to be Christian, but how many would truly give up their worldly possessions and devote their lives to helping others as Jesus had taught? How many would sacrifice their lives so that another may live? It would seem to me most followers of organized religion are only selective followers, at least as a Discordian, I can proudly proclaim such a thing is intended and encouraged by my irreligious disorganization...

At least the Muslim Kurds are protecting the Christians.