NationStates Jolt Archive

Is it possible to maintain belief in the providence of God in the face of the evil and suffering in the world? Can we theoretically or practically justify evil? I want answers people!

There is no god. Shit just happens.

Is it possible to maintain belief in the providence of God in the face of the evil and suffering in the world? Can we theoretically or practically justify evil? I want answers people!

Yes, and yes. Are you writing a last-minute Intro. to Phl term paper today or something? :p

Stupid question. Evil and god are bible concepts. The bible is full of shit. It doesn't mean anything.

Is it possible to maintain belief in the providence of God in the face of the evil and suffering in the world?

sure. we have no reason to believe that God is good, nor that God is just, loving, or in any way a positive force. you can believe in God without there being any contradiction; God may just be a jackass.

Can we theoretically or practically justify evil?
morality is relative, so we do not need to "justify" evil.

Good is what you like, evil is what you don't like.

morality is relative, so we do not need to "justify" evil.

Morality's only relative to relativists, but there sure are enough of them.

I'd recommend Nagel's "War and Massacre" to Ellis, if you're writing a paper..

The bible is full of shit.

I looked into that ... it's actually full of words and paper. If yours is full of shit, I suggest throwing it away.

Morality's only relative to relativists

Everything is relative to relativists ... especially their relatives.

I looked into that ... it's actually full of words and paper. If yours is full of shit, I suggest throwing it away.

It sometimes happens when you get the ones printed on biodegradable paper from Liberty Baptist.

Stupid question. Evil and god are bible concepts. The bible is full of shit. It doesn't mean anything.


I am concerned where you get your books.....mt bible is full of pieces of paper with words on

Is it possible to maintain belief in the providence of God in the face of the evil and suffering in the world? Can we theoretically or practically justify evil? I want answers people!

question 1 - of course it is, lots of people do that every day

question 2 - what do you mean by "justify"? lots of people justify to themselves things that they do which other people consider evil. personally, i don't think there is ever any justification for doing an evil act, because if it is justifiable, it isn't evil.

not that i would ever describe anything as evil when i was talking to people, because i might as well describe it as hnggmgngikdjk since i don't know 2 people who agree what evil means

Well, i guess then Evil is what contradicts religious text then :p

Evil is an anagram of live......but then coffee rhyms with toffee...the universe is a conundrum indeed....

...has anyone said we can't have good without evil yet?

...has anyone said we can't have good without evil yet?

Nope, you're early.. ;)

Does that make homosexuals evil then if they contradict religious text, or people who live in sin. Thankfully I am not attracted to my neighbours ox

Evil is an anagram of live......but then coffee rhyms with toffee...the universe is a conundrum indeed....

...has anyone said we can't have good without evil yet?
Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!Satan would represent evil, and the Church would represent good.

Satan would represent evil, and the Church would represent good.

But isn't Satan a fallen Angel? Do he was good to start off with...and rather than evil wasn't he just a bit naughty and annoyed God?

Is it possible to maintain belief in the providence of God in the face of the evil and suffering in the world? Can we theoretically or practically justify evil? I want answers people!

Define "evil" first, please.

...has anyone said we can't have good without evil yet?
not as yet, and it's a good thing...since that's not a true statement. assuming, of course, that morality isn't relative (which it actually is) we wouldn't need evil to have good. we wouldn't have the concept of "good" as compared to "evil," but it would be quite possible for things that are currently "good" to exist without things that are "evil." just because human beings would be unable to define the concept of "good" would not in any way preclude an all-good universe from existing.

But isn't Satan a fallen Angel? Do he was good to start off with...and rather than evil wasn't he just a bit naughty and annoyed God?

The arabs historically believe satan to have been cast down for loving God more than Man, as in Al-Farabi and Avicenna. Dunno why I brought that up..

not as yet, and it's a good thing...since that's not a true statement. assuming, of course, that morality isn't relative (which it actually is) we wouldn't need evil to have good. we wouldn't have the concept of "good" as compared to "evil," but it would be quite possible for things that are currently "good" to exist without things that are "evil." just because human beings would be unable to define the concept of "good" would not in any way preclude an all-good universe from existing.

aha! can we have good things? or just good people?

aha! can we have good things? or just good people?
i believe we can have neither and both, because good is subjective. but most people who believe in Good and Evil believe that events or actions can be good or evil. some believe humans can be Good or Evil, but others believe that all humans are a combination of good and evil qualities or forces.

But isn't Satan a fallen Angel? Do he was good to start off with...and rather than evil wasn't he just a bit naughty and annoyed God?Satan did something God didn't like (good is what you like, evil is what you don't like) hence God banishing Satan to hell, where he would be punished for all eternity for being 'evil'.

I think that it is important to define good and evil, or even just good and bad. It means something unique to each person. psychopaths believe that they do 'good'. everything is relative - and seeing as it is the uniquiness of people that make it this way there is no way of seeing things from a completely nutral perspective. Thats what makes Good and Evil such a great debate coz it will never be resolved. but I do believe that 'God' should not be brought into this as thats just a story a load of people made up, and then loads of other people changed it to reflect their personal views.

Instead of trying to justify evil, why not try to justify good. most people in life do things for themselves. the people who are saying thier doing good deeds for the community or the homelss are doing it for themselves. If you ask them why they do it, most of them say it makes them feel needed or good about themselves (not because their helping a homelss person).

it may seem off topic, but most people believe selfishness is EVIL, and people in thier lives are only looking out for them, generally if they help someone ot thier looking for some sort of reward like $50 for finding a lost dog.

But then again what is good, good is doing something good and right. again most people do the right thing because they will benefit so in turn isnt every act in life Evil. So if everything is evil, why does everyone try to help other people and think they'll get into heaven ( I don't believe in god or heaven so if anyone trys the churchy routine it won't work), but it truly isn't them who need help but yourself.

So why do we need to justify everything we do, and why is everything good and evil. Just by writing this i have done good and evil, in the same act how do we justify this act, the good came from answer someones question, the evil is answering in ways that offend people. Who said good and evil evens exsists.


That was way of topic but I kind of described my oppinion on justfying good and evil.

Satan did something God didn't like (good is what you like, evil is what you don't like) hence God banishing Satan to hell, where he would be punished for all eternity for being 'evil'.

That means that anything I don't like is evil. does that make mushrooms evil?

I think that it is important to define good and evil, or even just good and bad. It means something unique to each person. psychopaths believe that they do 'good'. everything is relative - and seeing as it is the uniquiness of people that make it this way there is no way of seeing things from a completely nutral perspective. Thats what makes Good and Evil such a great debate coz it will never be resolved. but I do believe that 'God' should not be brought into this as thats just a story a load of people made up, and then loads of other people changed it to reflect their personal views.

...Bubblechunks has been working very hard today and is GRRRRRing at the world because she has to help train an annoying person tomorrow....

That means that anything I don't like is evil. does that make mushrooms evil?

Sure, if you were God. :p

We all (hopefully) do little things for each other everyday...but that's just being nice.

Isn't evil a biblical definition anyway?

I like mushrooms but I have never seen them help an old lady across the road so I suspect that Bubblechunks might be correct...

That means that anything I don't like is evil. does that make mushrooms evil?According to what I said, yes.

Evil cannot be justified, only opposed. It does not require religious faith to know that evil exists - not as some mysterious, malevolent sentient force - but as the result of evil choices made by individual people.

Evil is the Janjaweed militias in Sudan conducting genocide. Evil is the failure of Union Carbide to accept responsibility for killing hundreds of thousands of people in Bhopal India. Evil is the murder of 110 million people in the 20th century by communist governments. Evil is the Nazi holocaust of Jews, Roma (Gypsies), Poles, homosexuals, and others during World War II.

Evil exists. You don't need to believe in god to know that.

I agree, all those acts were unforgivable and i don't want to be miss quoted on that fact. But I think that at the heart of it only a small proportion of those people were actually evil, the rest were just bad and very misguided. wrong place at the wrong time kinda thing (I'm talking about the baddies not the victims) It's people like Hitler, his cronies and Mugaby that are the evil ones. Anyone who takes pleasure in harming another living person can no way be described as 'good'!!

On the God note, he is there coz it hepls people to understand goos and evil and gives them boundaries. It's a very difficult subject and i'll admit that some help to understand it would be nice, but i can't buy into the god thing.

Evil cannot be justified, only opposed. It does not require religious faith to know that evil exists - not as some mysterious, malevolent sentient force - but as the result of evil choices made by individual people.

Evil is the Janjaweed militias in Sudan conducting genocide. Evil is the failure of Union Carbide to accept responsibility for killing hundreds of thousands of people in Bhopal India. Evil is the murder of 110 million people in the 20th century by communist governments. Evil is the Nazi holocaust of Jews, Roma (Gypsies), Poles, homosexuals, and others during World War II.

Evil exists. You don't need to believe in god to know that.

Some of that stuff gets covered under stupidity!

Actually, while listening to all those believiers on this forum, I'm more and more convinced of "God" and "Evil" being exactly the same thing.

...evil seems to be a word that is overused. Awful, terrible, dreadful, inhuman, intollerable but evil is the worst of the worst....it kind numb things to use it all the time.

A company that is dragging it's heels over compensation is just a money grabbing careless corporation, the man who murders the baby because he doesn't want to be a father to another girl is ignorant and misguided, the man who authorises the mutliple murders of hundreds of thousands of people for the greater good of his country and kudos with a dude with a moustache...THAT'S evil.

Evil cannot be justified, only opposed. It does not require religious faith to know that evil exists - not as some mysterious, malevolent sentient force - but as the result of evil choices made by individual people.

Evil is the Janjaweed militias in Sudan conducting genocide. Evil is the failure of Union Carbide to accept responsibility for killing hundreds of thousands of people in Bhopal India. Evil is the murder of 110 million people in the 20th century by communist governments. Evil is the Nazi holocaust of Jews, Roma (Gypsies), Poles, homosexuals, and others during World War II.

Evil exists. You don't need to believe in god to know that.
The tsunami who ravaged Asia was evil as well.
Ocean is evil.
The sun is evil.
Your mother is evil.

Do you not think that justifying evil is to justify the unjustifiable? Surely if we justify it, we begin to live with it and stop caring?

Letting millions and millions of people suffer the most cruel torments ever existed while you could stop it at ANY TIME but you don't, only because they don't worshipped you: THAT is evil in it's purest form.

but unltimatly it's just your opinion........

Evil cannot be justified, only opposed. It does not require religious faith to know that evil exists - not as some mysterious, malevolent sentient force - but as the result of evil choices made by individual people.

Evil is the Janjaweed militias in Sudan conducting genocide. Evil is the failure of Union Carbide to accept responsibility for killing hundreds of thousands of people in Bhopal India. Evil is the murder of 110 million people in the 20th century by communist governments. Evil is the Nazi holocaust of Jews, Roma (Gypsies), Poles, homosexuals, and others during World War II.

Evil exists. You don't need to believe in god to know that.Personally, I agree. However, the people/governments who commited those acts were acting according to what they believed to be correct.

It's a vicious circle with a few loops and twists thrown in for good measure. Good and Evil always makes a wonderful debate. :D

The tsunami who ravaged Asia was evil as well.
Ocean is evil.
The sun is evil.
Your mother is evil.
Sometimes I feel like being flippant in the General Forum, too. Of course you realize what you are saying is stupid, otherwise you wouldn't be saying it.

Evil is a human construct. Only humans can be evil. Only humans can recognize evil. Evil require conscious intent.

Some of that stuff gets covered under stupidity!
Rape, murder, genocide...those aren't the product of stupidity. They are evil and should be recognized as such.

Personally, I agree. However, the people/governments who commited those acts were acting according to what they believed to be correct.
It makes no difference to me if some government or person thinks they can justify their evil acts. Having said that, must of the time I don't think they can, since in almost every case these governments and people lie, cover up, or otherwise try to obfuscate their nefarious deeds. If you feel justified then you act out in the open.

Why don't we just apply a little of the old "Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot . . ." logic here.

Is it so farfetched that, being omnipotent, God was able to create an arch-nemesis--his own personal Snidely Whiplash--who was so dastardly that God himself couldn't beat him?

I think what the original poster is talking about is rationalising evil and God. Its an old arguement, one that has now been throughly debunked by most philosphers as stupid. It goes something like this

Athiest: If God is all loving and all seeing and all knowing and all powerful then surely evil should not happen since an all loving God would not allow such horrible things to happen.

Now human evil is easy to rationalise. That is the product of sin. Sin entered the world and man drifted away from God. The further he drifted the worse he got even when he himself though he was rather close (Crusades, Musilim occupation of Spain etc)

What this is also is a confusion between the ideas of God's will (what God wants to happen) and God's plan (what God allows/does not allow to happen, sometimes towards his own ends). The problem is that we dont know what is and isn't part of plan, what God wants to happen for the long term game plan of Human reunificiation with God. We know what God want's (for everyone to come to know him and to attempt to live a life that he showed them to live) but God's plan and the ultimate end is more confusing. For a more thourgh analysis of the God/Evil ideas see here. I think you will find it interesting

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part1.html

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/natevl.html

What does the Christian Thinktank have to say about my little theory? A certain little "Burrito/Whiplash Postulate" detailed above. They can cite me if they'd like, but I'm going to need some royalties and residuals.

Is it possible to maintain belief in the providence of God in the face of the evil and suffering in the world? Can we theoretically or practically justify evil? I want answers people!


In my opinion, there is no justification for Evil. It is by definition an abarition from God's plan for this earth and the universe. It is a reality because God values free choice and loving worship and obedience from His creation rather than a forced service, or obedience out of fear or obedience from automatons.

He desires us to live in love, peace and harmony with Him and each other, but He will not force us to do so. We have chosen not to and continue to do so every time we defy His commandments. "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your strength and with all your mind. And, love your neighbor as yourself."

My personal definitions evil is...

Evil: The term given to an act that has been deliberatly and conciously thought out that results in the physical or the emotional damage, whether short term or long of another, whether culture, country or indivdual when another option that was less so was available.

Good is a much harder definition but I suppose could be viewed as the exact opposite of the above personal definition of evil.

Therefore, I would say you cannot justify evil as, when an evil act is done, there has to have been another option which was ignored consequently leading to the hurt of another.

He [God] desires us to live in love, peace and harmony with Him and each other...
Really?

“But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments…I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes…I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle” (Leviticus 26:14-22)

“And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord: and the Lord heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the Lord burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp” (Numbers 11:1)

“And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the Lord, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter” (1 Samuel 6:19)

“Then Moses...said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men” (Exodus 32:26-28)

“And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand” (Numbers 25:6-9)

“And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried, they shall be dung upon the ground” (Jeremiah 25:33)

Just a small sample of god's love, peace, and harmony.

From reading the Bible, I have this theory.

Evil seems to be free will. Being good is just following God's rules. By exercising the choice of free will, people can commit evil acts.

Can we theoretically or practically justify evil?
In my opinion, there is no such thing as good or evil. Just differences.

Is it possible to maintain belief in the providence of God in the face of the evil and suffering in the world? Can we theoretically or practically justify evil? I want answers people!
What is evil? You say all thing aparts from God. I say there is no such thing as evil, evil is simply a point of view that is different from the norm.

Its an old arguement, one that has now been throughly debunked by most philosphers as stupid.
And by "philosopher" you mean "theologian", right?

And by "philosopher" you mean "theologian", right?

Have you been to the thinktank? It's right full up with good Christian philosophers.

Really?
Just a small sample of god's love, peace, and harmony.

And the LORD passed by before him and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering and abundant ingoodness and truth, Kepping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty. (Exodus 34:6,7)

But this shall be the covenant that I make with the house of Isreal; after those days saith the LORD. I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts and will be their God and they shall be My people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, saying, Know the LORD, for they shall all know me from the least of them to the greatest of them saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sin no more. (Jeremiah 31:33,34)

Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night and perished in a night: And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle? (Jonah 4:10,11)

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:6)

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotton Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not parish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:16,17)

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die, yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth His love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:5-8)

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. (1 John 4:7-11)

I could go on for hours, but I think I've made my point.

Have you been to the thinktank? It's right full up with good Christian philosophers.
I haven't looked into it too much, but I am not a big fan of think tanks. And I'm assuming that by "Christian philosopher" you mean "christologist".

I could go on for hours, but I think I've made my point.
What point is that? That god is both wonderful and terrible?

What point is that? That god is both wonderful and terrible?


That God is love and treats humanity much more mercifully than we deserve.

good is helping others.
evil is hurting others.
see how simple that is?