NationStates Jolt Archive

This is smarter and more subtle.

First, areas that are productive don't need to be subjugated by armed force. Here, we use the "free market" and "trade agreements" to co-opt whole populations who are too lazy to fight you and really enjoy sitting in a pub drinking good beer and watching football matches. Oh, and you can still keep your bases in their countries, and they have the illusion that you are an ally, or protecting them, or something like that. In any case, they don't have any idea that you really have PWN3D them.

So they are unwitting accomplices at the very least. Plus, they are more likely to do police-state actions such as put cameras up on every street corner and take away all the firearms so that when you do eventually own the place, no one will be able to resist (the UK). Meanwhile, their wimpy governments do a lot of handwringing, and stay out of your way. Then they ask for contracts in places you just took. Germany?

Second, you frighten mid-level countries into helping with the threat of "what happens if you don't like us". You know, no loans, CIA screwing with your elections (Venezuela), multinational corporations pulling out, and in the end, the US invades your country and pulls you out of a rat hole. See Libya groveling?

And for the lowest - places like Liberia and Sierra Leone, which are barely stable and don't really have any natural resources to offer - we'll worry about those places later. Let them rot.

One question. Does Venezuela really count as a mid-level country? I didn't know they had passed 3rd world status yet...

Other than that, I kinda like the sound of this plan.

One question. Does Venezuela really count as a mid-level country? I didn't know they had passed 3rd world status yet....define 3rd World...and how do you pass?

Pity no one liked my idea...

You know, I didn't think it was possible, but now I have even less reason to live near San Francisco. Why am I still here? TEXAS CALLS, DAMMIT!

How about a blockade of North Korea? Nothing goes in or out, nothing. Kim Jong Il is faced with a simple choice, dismantle your nuclear program and all nuclear weapons or your people will starve (faster) and revolt against you with some assistance from special forces and airstrikes. I understand that this would be cruel to the people of North Korea who are already suffering, but sometimes tough choices have to be made that will kill innocent civilians.

How about a blockade of North Korea? Nothing goes in or out, nothing. Kim Jong Il is faced with a simple choice, dismantle your nuclear program and all nuclear weapons or your people will starve (faster) and revolt against you with some assistance from special forces and airstrikes. I understand that this would be cruel to the people of North Korea who are already suffering, but sometimes tough choices have to be made that will kill innocent civilians.

You know that's how Pearl Harbor started, right?

You know that's how Pearl Harbor started, right?

?

Pearl Harbor was a surprise attack on a U.S. Military base in the Pacific, due to the Japanese wanting to take control of the Pacific(they did NOT want to take over America, contrary to popular belief). We didn't blockade them, airstrike em, make revolts against 'em etc. All we did was say "Don't invade anyone. Please."

The only way to deal with this without it going nuclear or a draft is an alliance with China, or a resurgence of the Japanese military.

The only way to deal with this without it going nuclear or a draft is an alliance with China, or a resurgence of the Japanese military.

Hmmm...

Well, Nuclear Winter won't be that bad! We can make cities out of Ice and Snow!

Oh my god. State of it? You need to get off of it. They weren't planted at all. We would not do that because this was not about oil.


I was referring to the Iraqis planting the explosives so that the US could not use them, which would make the US Invasion pointless for the Bush administration.





Iraqis

Americans.






Now if only you had common sense, then maybe we could have an intelligent debate.

My only lack of common sense here is still engaging in a debate with someone who is so willing and eager to nuke Pyongyang without mindful of the consequences.

As I say, I have seen a glimmer of hope from you since that post, so there is hope, thus why I continue to engage in debate with you.

Germany invaded nation after nation, believing themselves to be imperious to everyone else and having superior technology.

They took on Britain, believing it to be too small to resist, and Goering belived it would fall in weeks.

They were wrong.

The Germans invaded the Soviet Union, believing the Soviets to be primitive, and having inferior equipment.

They were wrong.

Germany paid for their imperialist ambitions, by having a large and vengeful Soviet Army storming and marching into Berlin.

Americans should hope that their administration's imperialist ambitions do not end up in a vengeful army marching into a burning Washington.

Believe me, Germany thought they were imperious, untouchable, the greatest nation, reich, the world had ever seen, and to many, they did look untouchable, nothing could stop their jackboots marching and stamping down on people's heads and stamping out lives.

But they learnt the hard way, that this was not true, that to go marching off into foreign places would cost you.

America believes that no conventional army can beat them. Germany thought that too.

Germany's ambitions ended in a burning capital, and a underestimated 'primitive' army marching into the once imperious capital of Germany, marking the end of a united Germany for 44 years, under occupation.

Modern technology, the Blitzkreig, believing one to be imperious.

It did not matter shit by 1945.

Germany invaded nation after nation, believing themselves to be imperious to everyone else and having superior technology.

They took on Britain, believing it to be too small to resist, and Goering belived it would fall in weeks.

They were wrong.

The Germans invaded the Soviet Union, believing the Soviets to be primitive, and having inferior equipment.

They were wrong.

Germany paid for their imperialist ambitions, by having a large and vengeful Soviet Army storming and marching into Berlin.

Americans should hope that their administration's imperialist ambitions do not end up in a vengeful army marching into a burning Washington.

Believe me, Germany thought they were imperious, untouchable, the greatest nation, reich, the world had ever seen, and to many, they did look untouchable, nothing could stop their jackboots marching and stamping down on people's heads and stamping out lives.

But they learnt the hard way, that this was not true, that to go marching off into foreign places would cost you.

America believes that no conventional army can beat them. Germany thought that too.

Germany's ambitions ended in a burning capital, and a underestimated 'primitive' army marching into the once imperious capital of Germany, marking the end of a united Germany for 44 years, under occupation.

Modern technology, the Blitzkreig, believing one to be imperious.

It did not matter shit by 1945.
Actually, the biggest reason they lost was because hitler was an idiot when it came to military decisions.

Americans should hope that their administration's imperialist ambitions do not end up in a vengeful army marching into a burning Washington.


America believes that no conventional army can beat them. Germany thought that too.



Spare me. When the US starts gassing millions of people, and then cremating them in ovens, then you can try to draw a correlation between the US today and Hitler's Germany.

Actually, the biggest reason they lost was because hitler was an idiot when it came to military decisions.

And Bush is not? Ho ho ho.

Spare me. When the US starts gassing millions of people, and then cremating them in ovens, then you can try to draw a correlation between the US today and Hitler's Germany.

Well, the Guantanamo Bay Concentration Camps are a start.

Well, the Guantanamo Bay Concentration Camps are a start.
Let's get serious. Obviously you are so blinded by your hatred of the US that you can't have an honest discussion.

Let's get serious. Obviously you are so blinded by your hatred of the US that you can't have an honest discussion.

Ah, of course....any criticism of America is down to hatred and nothing else, down to the obvious fact I'm jealous.

No. I am concerned.

I'm not blinded, I'm quite serious, and I'm having an honest discussion.

It's not me who is turning away from the obvious comparisons.

Ah, of course....any criticism of America is down to hatred and nothing else, down to the obvious fact I'm jealous.

No. I am concerned.

I'm not blinded, I'm quite serious, and I'm having an honest discussion.

It's not me who is turning away from the obvious comparisons.
How do you justify making a comparison between Hitler's Germany where 6 million Jews were murdered and the United States. That is not criticism that is slander. Go bait someone else, I won't waste my time on your silliness.

How do you justify making a comparison between Hitler's Germany where 6 million Jews were murdered and the United States. That is not criticism that is slander. Go bait someone else, I won't waste my time on your silliness.

It's not slander, it's not baiting, it's observation.

Hitler's concentration camps started small and they grew.

With Guantanamo Bay, the US is dangerously following the same line.

If all you can do is accuse me of baiting instead of engaging in debate, then I advise you don't bother debating, because you don't seem all that good at it, resorting to what are slanderous accusations without addressing my point.

To compare the United States to Facist Germany is laughable. In claiming this as a serious arguement in debate a person only shows why the left in America has been so weakened. It is an extreme arguement with little logical or historical validity, it just sounds strong so people say it.
One cannot claim to be debating seriously and use this arguement.
The United States will make no military move against N. Korea. To think it will is simply to show a complete lack of understanding of both geopolitical and military relations. It is not a viable option, especially considering Chine is sitting right next door and will act aggressively against any such move.
Honestly, you people who hate Bush baffle me. First you claim he is a moron, next you claim he is a devious fiend out to suck the middleast dry and then you claim he will launch an invasion of N. Korea. Stop being so willfulling stupid simply because you dislike the man. Or better yet, please stay so will fully stupid so my side can keep crushing you in elections.
Sorry for sounding so angry but, well, I am.

IMHO Dubya's policies are indirectly to blame for the latest batch of pledges to the nuclear club. Both N.Korea and Iran have been working on nukes at a feverish pace because they see it as the only sure way to keep from becoming the next Iraq.



I hope that everyone saw this coming from three miles back. We know that they've had a nuclear weapons development program since what? Sometime in 2001 or 2002? It's true that G. Dubya's policies do play a big role in North Koreas taking to nuclear arms, you could just as easily blame the person that gave them the technology to develop them. That would be the same person that decided to just take thier word that they wouldn't develop nukes wouldn't it?

Most battle plans that involve N. Korea involve the use of nukes on them, even were they to try and conventionally invade S. Korea. If we end up goin to war with them now it will be to turn any and all potential military installations to glass. If I was one of the SK soldiers stationed at the DMZ I would be pushing for many many more very thick concrete lead-lined bunkers to hide in.
Ohh??? What an intelligent plan!!! Where do you get your information from? Are you plugged into the Defence Dept.?

BTW, IF the US plan was to involve the use of nukes, do you really believe that China would stand back and watch?

Meanwhile, N. Korea will go along its' merry way building more nukes while the US continues to reject bilateral talks. Great plan by your Mr. Bush....NOT!!

Edit: I should add that if this whole NK nuke thing is part of a grand Bush administration conspiracy to goad Kim into nuking San Francisco through reverse psychology, then I'm behind it, 100%. ;)
Isn't San Francisco a part of YOUR United States or is it ok to nuke SF but not fly airplanes into buildings in New York City?

Is there any other parts of the US that you would like eliminated while you are at it?

BTW, what is wrong with San Fran that you would want it eliminated?

Ohh??? What an intelligent plan!!! Where do you get your information from? Are you plugged into the Defence Dept.?

BTW, IF the US plan was to involve the use of nukes, do you really believe that China would stand back and watch?

Meanwhile, N. Korea will go along its' merry way building more nukes while the US continues to reject bilateral talks. Great plan by your Mr. Bush....NOT!!
Why must it be bi-lateral? There are six prominent nations in that area that should be a party to any discussion. Giving N.Korea a one on one meeting with the US will give them credability as a nuclear power and make them a peer of the US.

It's not slander, it's not baiting, it's observation.

Hitler's concentration camps started small and they grew.

With Guantanamo Bay, the US is dangerously following the same line.

If all you can do is accuse me of baiting instead of engaging in debate, then I advise you don't bother debating, because you don't seem all that good at it, resorting to what are slanderous accusations without addressing my point.

So, any nation that detains any of its enemies, even if the number of detainees is less than a thousand, is trending towards Hitler?

How many IRA members did the UK detain again?

Does that make every UK Prime Minister a Hitler?

Your logic is incredibly fallacious.

I hope that everyone saw this coming from three miles back. We know that they've had a nuclear weapons development program since what? Sometime in 2001 or 2002? It's true that G. Dubya's policies do play a big role in North Koreas taking to nuclear arms, you could just as easily blame the person that gave them the technology to develop them. That would be the same person that decided to just take thier word that they wouldn't develop nukes wouldn't it?

Longer than that! It goes back to the Clinton Administration in reality and that is 1994! Nice job in trying to place the blame on Bush though.

Ohh??? What an intelligent plan!!! Where do you get your information from? Are you plugged into the Defence Dept.?

BTW, IF the US plan was to involve the use of nukes, do you really believe that China would stand back and watch?

Meanwhile, N. Korea will go along its' merry way building more nukes while the US continues to reject bilateral talks. Great plan by your Mr. Bush....NOT!!
Why don't you call for the U.N to handle it? You bitch about the US going into Iraq alone, then you bitch about the US not having a one on one summit with N.Korea.

Isn't San Francisco a part of YOUR United States or is it ok to nuke SF but not fly airplanes into buildings in New York City?

Is there any other parts of the US that you would like eliminated while you are at it?

BTW, what is wrong with San Fran that you would want it eliminated?

Three problems with trying to nuke San Fran with a missile (which the North Koreans have).

1. PAC-3 sites moved recently to optimal positions to intercept boost phase North Korean missiles. These interceptors performed well in tests.
2. Naval Standard SM-3 missiles are operational. These performed very well in tests. Also capable of intercepting boost phase North Korean missiles from any Aegis cruiser.
3. The deployment of questionable missiles at Ft. Greeley - these are the mid-course interceptors being tested now. But, since there are 100 missiles in place, even if they have a less than 50 percent hit rate, they are still worth something.
4. Airborne Laser is in final testing now (it has demonstrated an ability to hit with far more reliability than any missile interceptor - and it has an incredible number of retries). Two aircraft are scheduled to be in operation by the end of the fiscal year. The laser itself has already been tested at full power.

With the Airborne Laser in place, and the PAC-3 and SM-3 in place, it won't be possible for the North Koreans to get a missile out of the peninsula to even reach Japan - unless they plan on building hundreds of missiles and hundreds of warheads.

Why must it be bi-lateral? There are six prominent nations in that area that should be a party to any discussion. Giving N.Korea a one on one meeting with the US will give them credability as a nuclear power and make them a peer of the US.
Ummm they have nuclear weapons and the US wants them gone? Meanwhile, NK has withdrawn from multi-lateral talks and all the US can do is hurl insults while NK keeps building nukes. How proactive is that?

Watch out that credibility doesn't land on your doorstep?

Ohh??? What an intelligent plan!!! Where do you get your information from? Are you plugged into the Defence Dept.?

BTW, IF the US plan was to involve the use of nukes, do you really believe that China would stand back and watch?

Meanwhile, N. Korea will go along its' merry way building more nukes while the US continues to reject bilateral talks. Great plan by your Mr. Bush....NOT!!

http://www.korea-is-one.org/article.php3?id_article=1038

This information is all over the web, in more than one credible source.

China is NOT a nation that will go to war for North Korea anymore.

Bush was criticized for being unilateral with Iraq.

So now we have six nation talks (one of which is the US). And, we're using the UN and the IAEA. We're being multilateral - which is the way the WHOLE WORLD wanted us to deal with internation conflicts.

We don't need to do bilateral talks. If you read your history, you will discover that the Korean War is still ongoing - and is a war between North Korea and the United Nations (pursuant to Resolution 90).

Note that I said "United Nations" and not the "United States".

Or would you like the United States to do things unilaterally again, as they did in Iraq, instead of following the United Nations resolutions?

Hmm? If we engage in bilateral talks, that is EXACTLY what we will be doing.

If you didn't figure it out yet, what North Korea wants is a promise, in writing, not to attack North Korea under any conditions. Since we don't seem to be attacking them right now, one might wonder what other conditions might arise.

Ah, I see. If the North attacks the South in order to consolidate their hold on all of Korea, the North wants the US to promise not to attack the North.

That's a pretty stupid suggestion. We would be violating Resolution 90 if we failed to defend the South.

Would you really like the US to not play by the UN rules? Would you like the US to take North Korea's advice and not abide by UN resolutions?

Really? :rolleyes:

Why don't you call for the U.N to handle it? You bitch about the US going into Iraq alone, then you bitch about the US not having a one on one summit with N.Korea.
There is a major difference to invading a country and having proactive discussions with it?

There is a major difference to invading a country and having proactive discussions with it?
N. Korea did not abide by their previous agreement that the US brokered, why do you think anything productive will come out of another US - N.Korean meeting? Get real.

There is a major difference to invading a country and having proactive discussions with it?

You need to take history again. You obviously either never covered the Korean War, or failed that class.

The war is NOT between North Korea and the United States.

It is between North Korea and the United Nations.

The war is still ongoing.

North Korea wishes to get a guarantee from the US that it will not attack it - no matter what. In essence, it wants a guarantee that the US will not abide by UN Resolution 90.

If the US failed to abide by Resolution 90, there would be two immediate effects:
1. The North could steamroller into the South and take it. The UN would be helpless to stop it, and it is already estimated that millions would be killed in the conventional barrage of Seoul alone in the first day.
2. The US would be quite pointedly abandoning the UN - I don't think that the UN would exist as a credible organization after that.

Do you really want that to happen?

How do you propose to settle the matter of Resolution 90 if the United States is the only nation at the table with North Korea?

Go back to school.

BTW, what is wrong with San Fran that you would want it eliminated?
The neighborhood called "the Castro". Not only is it named after a communist dictator it's full of sodomites.

You do know that in the Bible the Sodomites were blasted for raping angels, right?

If they were female angels, they would have gone for the other hole.

You do know that in the Bible the Sodomites were blasted for raping angels, right?

If they were female angels, they would have gone for the other hole.I thought it was because they wanted to screw Lot's male visitor who was sent by god to find good men in the city so he could rescue it from god's wrath. Or perhaps they wanted to screw Lot. I don't remember anymore. It was a long time ago.

The advent of NK having WMD is of little importance anyway. They won't use them or we would cover their country in musroom clouds before thir first missle hit. Second they are dying now anyway because of the sanctions and trade restrictions which have been put on them. THey only claim/admit to have the nukes now to get the US back to the table so they can try to get some kind of deal, which wont/shouldn't happen (atleast in a 1on1 setting). Kim Jong Ill's regime is on its way out.. its only a matter of time before they starve themselves to death. As much as China opposes the US. The last thing they wanted to see is a destablizing force like North Korea getting a hold of a nuke.

NK has said alot of things so far.. they have yet to actually test their nuke you know, usually a step every nation takes before we know for sure they have one

a nuke is only as good as the missle its strapped on to.

Ummm they have nuclear weapons and the US wants them gone? Meanwhile, NK has withdrawn from multi-lateral talks and all the US can do is hurl insults while NK keeps building nukes. How proactive is that?

Watch out that credibility doesn't land on your doorstep?
Shouldn't China, Russia, Japan and S. Korea participate as well? Aren't they directly impacted with any agreements reached? What is your justification for excluding those nations?

Gotta love the Israeli Army.

Hmm, excuse me if I don't love an army whose general attitude is 'Let's kill some inferiour sub human arabs! We are Gods chosen people, and if you disagree, you are a Nazi!'

The advent of NK having WMD is of little importance anyway. They won't use them or we would cover their country in musroom clouds before thir first missle hit. Second they are dying now anyway because of the sanctions and trade restrictions which have been put on them. THey only claim/admit to have the nukes now to get the US back to the table so they can try to get some kind of deal, which wont/shouldn't happen (atleast in a 1on1 setting). Kim Jong Ill's regime is on its way out.. its only a matter of time before they starve themselves to death. As much as China opposes the US. The last thing they wanted to see is a destablizing force like North Korea getting a hold of a nuke.

NK has said alot of things so far.. they have yet to actually test their nuke you know, usually a step every nation takes before we know for sure they have one

a nuke is only as good as the missle its strapped on to.


Dr. Khan of Pakistan admits to having sold them the design of a working Pakistani warhead.

So if they can follow an engineering diagram, they have one. Would you like to call the bluff?

In any case, this situation is rather like a man who is barricaded in his own house, threatening to set off the 500 pounds of dynamite in his basement if the police don't leave (they, of course, are surrounding the house). He has other demands, none of which make any sense.

We're all sitting around, at a relatively safe distance, wondering when the police will rush the house, or when he will blow himself up.

Don't change that channel!

Shouldn't China, Russia, Japan and S. Korea participate as well? Aren't they directly impacted with any agreements reached? What is your justification for excluding those nations?
The soldiers of any country in a war will have that opinion about the people they are fighting.

Hmm, excuse me if I don't love an army whose general attitude is 'Let's kill some inferiour sub human arabs! We are Gods chosen people, and if you disagree, you are a Nazi!'

And where did you get this little gem? I've known many IDF troops, and not once have I heard this kind of crap.

Oh, I see. You're making it up.

The soldiers of any country in a war will have that opinion about the people they are fighting.
What? What the hell do you mean?

What? What the hell do you mean?

Lokiaa has obviously never been a soldier, and certainly not in a war.

You don't need to say bad things about people and consider them subhuman before you kill them.

...6 million Jews....I dont think so...

I dont think so...
Are you disputing the number, or that the Holocaust ever happened?

Why must it be bi-lateral? 1on1..Why not?
What is Bush scared of...

reminds of Bush testimony at the 9-11 comission.

1on1..Why not?
What is Bush scared of...

reminds of Bush testimony at the 9-11 comission.
Shouldn't China, Russia, Japan and S. Korea participate as well? Aren't they directly impacted with any agreements reached? What is your justification for excluding those nations?

:rolleyes:

Did it really surprise anyone?

Are you disputing the number, or that the Holocaust ever happened?
I think the Holocaust probably happened...

"6 million Jews" I am disputing every single word.

Shouldn't China, Russia, Japan and S. Korea participate as well? Aren't they directly impacted with any agreements reached? What is your justification for excluding those nations?what is your justification...for excluding Iran, Brazil, or any other country that could be impacted by a Nuk-lear war?

what your justification...for excluding Iran, Brazil, or any country that could be impacted by a Nuk-lear war?
Well those nations I listed are all in the immediate vicinity of North Korea. Get a clue. You obviously have no rebuttal as to why China, Russia, Japan and S. Korea should not attend.

If the world did actually end, it would be in a flash. The United States has a nuclear device in an undisclosed location which if detonated would render the entire Earth inhospitable to even single celled bacteria.

And thats all I'm allowed to say with current security rules and regulations.

Now, I'm asking, how many thousands of megatons would that have to be? The theory of the thing that wiped out the dinosaurs - the asteroid, meteor, etc - was about ten thousand Hiroshimas. And that didn't wipe out even some forms of complex life! So we'd need a weapon the size of Rhode Island or something. :headbang:

VERY plausible.

Well those nations I listed are all in the immediate vicinity of North Korea.so what?

Did the US hold Talks with Iran before invading Iraq?

NK says the 6 ways talks are going nowhere...
and Indeed they are going nowhere...

its time ti try 1on1...unless Bush is scared to sit alone.

so what?

Did the US hold Talks with Iran before invading Iraq?

NK says the 6 ways talks are going nowhere...
and Indeed they are going nowhere...

its time ti try 1on1...unless Bush is scared to sit alone.
That already has been tried! North Korea broke that agreement. Do you even follow the news? And as far as Iraq goes, the US held meeting after meeting, and resolution after resolution with the UN. Nothing happened.

Hmm, excuse me if I don't love an army whose general attitude is 'Let's kill some inferiour sub human arabs! We are Gods chosen people, and if you disagree, you are a Nazi!'

Excuse me but I support anyone that tries to defend itself from Arab terrorist agression!

I think the Holocaust probably happened...

"6 million Jews" I am disputing every single word.

Why? It is somewhat of an accurate number.

so what?

Did the US hold Talks with Iran before invading Iraq?

NK says the 6 ways talks are going nowhere...
and Indeed they are going nowhere...

its time ti try 1on1...unless Bush is scared to sit alone.

Clinton did 1 on 1 talks and North Korea violated the said agreement.

I suggest you check your history about North Korea and their track record about following agreements.

Now, I'm asking, how many thousands of megatons would that have to be? The theory of the thing that wiped out the dinosaurs - the asteroid, meteor, etc - was about ten thousand Hiroshimas. And that didn't wipe out even some forms of complex life! So we'd need a weapon the size of Rhode Island or something. :headbang:

VERY plausible.

Neutron bomb maybe? And considering that there's life miles below the surface of the earth, in the oceans, etc... you'd have to destroy the entire CRUST... so.. um.. no.

That already has been tried! North Korea broke that agreement. Do you even follow the news? And as far as Iraq goes, the US held meeting after meeting, and resolution after resolution with the UN. Nothing happened.
so?

Jonny wanted a new car ...he wanted it very bad...he went to talk with his dad monday...but his Dad called next day and told him a bad idiea....so he went to see talk with his Mom and she says sorry maybe next month...talked with his uncle...and talked with the sister....no result yet....he went to the Bank...the bank gave them some papers to fill and when 2 days after he came back with the papers filed...surprise...he needed to talk some more....an appointment for the loans officer(mr.Blix) was the next step...more waiting and waiting....

Jonny could not wait he went to the Dealers place, Broke the big windows and took the shinny car!

when his Mom asked why didnt he wait for Mr Blix paperworks...Jonny said "I talked and talked ... meeting after meeting..and nothing was happening"

so?

Jonny wanted a new car ...he wanted it very bad...he went to talk with his dad monday...but his Dad called next day and told him a bad idiea....so he went to see talk with his Mom and she says sorry maybe next month...talked with his uncle...and talked with the sister....no result yet....he went to the Bank...the bank gave them some papers to fill and when 2 days after he came back with the papers filed...surprise...he needed to talk some more....an appointment for the loans officer(mr.Blix) was the next step...more waiting and waiting....

Jonny could not wait he went to the Dealers place, Broke the big windows and took the shinny car!

when his Mom asked why didnt he wait for Mr Blix paperworks...Jonny said "I talked and talked and nothink was happening"

Moral of the Story? Johnny got caught and was tossed in jail! Bad analogy dude!

so?

Jonny wanted a new car ...he wanted it very bad...he went to talk with his dad monday...but his Dad called next day and told him a bad idiea....so he went to see talk with his Mom and she says sorry maybe next month...talked with his uncle...and talked with the sister....no result yet....he went to the Bank...the bank gave them some papers to fill and when 2 days after he came back with the papers filed...surprise...he needed to talk some more....an appointment for the loans officer(mr.Blix) was the next step...more waiting and waiting....

Jonny could not wait he went to the Dealers place, Broke the big windows and took the shinny car!

when his Mom asked why didnt he wait for Mr Blix paperworks...Jonny said "I talked and talked ... meeting after meeting..and nothing was happening"
Bullshit analogy. It only holds true if the car dealership was likely to sell the car to a terrorist so he could build car bombs. Then Johnny's pretty justified in taking the car away.

In the medieval period the Church sought to ban the use of the crossbow, as such a simple and effective weapon would eventually lead to the destruction of all christendom.

Before the Second World War, all of the worlds military experts thought that carpet bombing a city would be the equivalent to a nuclear attack. They genuinely believed that should a war break out, the air armadas would turn every city into an ash heap populated only by the tiny remnants of humanity who survived but were driven insane by the explosions. The result would be the collapse of civilisation.

Before the first atomic test detonation, scientists thought there was a 70% probability that the chain reaction would consume the solar system.

Nuclear weapons are surrounded by exactly the same myths that surround any new, untested and ultimately cool weapon system.

Moral of the Story? Johnny got caught and was tossed in jail! Bad analogy dude!
Jonny is not in Jail yet...but some day he will pay for his crime...one way or another...

In the medieval period the Church sought to ban the use of the crossbow, as such a simple and effective weapon would eventually lead to the destruction of all christendom.

Before the Second World War, all of the worlds military experts thought that carpet bombing a city would be the equivalent to a nuclear attack. They genuinely believed that should a war break out, the air armadas would turn every city into an ash heap populated only by the tiny remnants of humanity who survived but were driven insane by the explosions. The result would be the collapse of civilisation.

Before the first atomic test detonation, scientists thought there was a 70% probability that the chain reaction would consume the solar system.

Nuclear weapons are surrounded by exactly the same myths that surround any new, untested and ultimately cool weapon system.
Yeah, they're so cool they increase cancer risk worldwide every time they're used. So cool that they can be smuggled into a city by a handfull of shitheads and kill every single person in the city.

so what?

Did the US hold Talks with Iran before invading Iraq?

NK says the 6 ways talks are going nowhere...
and Indeed they are going nowhere...

its time ti try 1on1...unless Bush is scared to sit alone.


It's time to go 1on1 on OUR terms. Too often has North Korea issued ultimatums to us. "Give us food or we build the bomb"
Send one back.
I am more than willing to depose Lil' Kim if we have a shortage of troops.

Jonny is not in Jail yet...but some day he will pay for his crime...one way or another...

Problem is, the police probably would have his description. Car dealerships are camera defended meaning that the area is under surveilance. Anyone that steals a car would have his picture taken.

Therefor, he'll be looked for. It normally doesn't take long in the end.

they shouldve attacked nk when they had a chance. even the defectors say that you get arrested and killed just for singing a south korean song. Not only do you get arrested but everyone you're related to are also arrested. Not only that, but they are selling uranium hexaflouride to libya. yes the very same thing that goes boom in nukes.

Bullshit analogy. It only holds true if the car dealership was likely to sell the car to a terrorist so he could build car bombs. Then Johnny's pretty justified in taking the car away.LOL thats so cute...

last sunday I saw a nice 2 seater at the Merceds dealership...Im sure the terroris like Mercedes...I beter "borrow" it before they can use it...

LOL thats so cute...

last sunday I saw a nice 2 seater at the Merceds dealership...Im sure the terroris like Mercedes...I beter "borrow" it before they can use it...

I hear they have gay sex in jail alot! Have fun with bubba!

....Anyone that steals a car would have his picture taken.

and here is Jonny:

http://www.dubyadolls.com/images/dubya_finger_optimize1.gif

I hear they have gay sex in jail alot! Have fun with bubba!
The so called "war on terror" never justifies crimes...no matter how nice the car is.
Bullshit analogy. It only holds true if the car dealership was likely to sell the car to a terrorist so he could build car bombs. Then Johnny's pretty justified in taking the car away.

Neutron bomb maybe? And considering that there's life miles below the surface of the earth, in the oceans, etc... you'd have to destroy the entire CRUST... so.. um.. no.

There is no such device. Nikoko is full of crap.

A neutron bomb is a thermonuclear device without the outer fission jacket. It produces a lot of neutrons which in an ordinary thermonuclear device would be used for a subsequent round of fission to boost the output in terms of heat and blast.

Since the neutrons are not converted to heat and blast, they go their merry way, killing everything in a small radius (depending on yield, 1 to 4 kilometers).

Primarily of use in tactical situations against armored formations - not much use in any other scenario. The radiation is prompt - there is little downwind effect, and the kill zone is radioactive for a while.

Warheads larger than 100 MT tend to be a waste of power, since more and more of the blast is wasted as it goes straight up out of the atmosphere. So there's a practical limit on size (for blast and heat purposes).

You could make a fallout-optimized device, but once again, if you wanted to kill everyone, there's an upper limit on device size, and limits to where the wind will optimally blow the fallout. So you would probably need hundreds of devices set off in just the right spots. People in shelters would probably survive.

To kill all the people would be one thing - to kill all the plant and animal life down to the single-cell level - that would be quite a feat.

Nuclear winter is a theory - it hasn't been proven. And humans have survived an Ice Age, so just because a nuclear winter might occur, does not mean it will kill us all.

A doomsday device is a paranoid fantasy.

LOL thats so cute...

last sunday I saw a nice 2 seater at the Merceds dealership...Im sure the terroris like Mercedes...I beter "borrow" it before they can use it...
It's obvious that when confronted with facts and commonsense you resort to some childish non-sense "analogy" that makes no sense. I guess this is to try to change the topic and move peoples attention away from your senseless arguments.

There is no such device. Nikoko is full of crap.

A neutron bomb is a thermonuclear device without the outer fission jacket. It produces a lot of neutrons which in an ordinary thermonuclear device would be used for a subsequent round of fission to boost the output in terms of heat and blast.

Since the neutrons are not converted to heat and blast, they go their merry way, killing everything in a small radius (depending on yield, 1 to 4 kilometers).

Primarily of use in tactical situations against armored formations - not much use in any other scenario. The radiation is prompt - there is little downwind effect, and the kill zone is radioactive for a while.

Warheads larger than 100 MT tend to be a waste of power, since more and more of the blast is wasted as it goes straight up out of the atmosphere. So there's a practical limit on size (for blast and heat purposes).

You could make a fallout-optimized device, but once again, if you wanted to kill everyone, there's an upper limit on device size, and limits to where the wind will optimally blow the fallout. So you would probably need hundreds of devices set off in just the right spots. People in shelters would probably survive.

To kill all the people would be one thing - to kill all the plant and animal life down to the single-cell level - that would be quite a feat.

Nuclear winter is a theory - it hasn't been proven. And humans have survived an Ice Age, so just because a nuclear winter might occur, does not mean it will kill us all.

A doomsday device is a paranoid fantasy.


I am in total agreement.
Doomsday devicies only exists as literary devices to build suspense. They are not real.

Why don't you call for the U.N to handle it? You bitch about the US going into Iraq alone, then you bitch about the US not having a one on one summit with N.Korea.
Actually, I supported John Kerry's ideal, and that was to talk with NK on a bi-lateral AND multi-lateral plane. Since the multi=lateral avenue has disappeared, then the US should begin the process of bi-lateral discussions and quit hurling around the insults. Insults just lead to higher walls, bigger fences, and more nuclear weapons. But then again, perhaps that is what Bush wants to happen, so that when the US invades NK, at least they will have proof that thery have WMD, and not like Iraq which had zero.

Actually, I supported John Kerry's ideal, and that was to talk with NK on a bi-lateral AND multi-lateral plane. Since the multi=lateral avenue has disappeared, then the US should begin the process of bi-lateral discussions and quit hurling around the insults. Insults just lead to higher walls, bigger fences, and more nuclear weapons. But then again, perhaps that is what Bush wants to happen, so that when the US invades NK, at least they will have proof that thery have WMD, and not like Iraq which had zero.
No, the US should start bombing N. Korea's air defenses and air bases.

Actually, I supported John Kerry's ideal, and that was to talk with NK on a bi-lateral AND multi-lateral plane. Since the multi=lateral avenue has disappeared, then the US should begin the process of bi-lateral discussions and quit hurling around the insults. Insults just lead to higher walls, bigger fences, and more nuclear weapons. But then again, perhaps that is what Bush wants to happen, so that when the US invades NK, at least they will have proof that thery have WMD, and not like Iraq which had zero.

I've been listening to Condi's speeches, and I don't hear any insults. The language sounds pretty tame.

How about a plan from that master of diplomacy, William Jefferson Clinton:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oplan-5027.htm

Further revisions to the concept of operations were elaborated in OPLAN 5027-98, which was adopted in late 1998. Previous versions of OPLAN 5027 had called for stopping a North Korean invasion and pushing them back across the Demilitarized Zone. The new version of the plan was more clearly focused on offensive operations into North Korea. A senior US official was reported to have said: "When we're done, they will not be able to mount any military activity of any kind. We will kill them all." The goal of the revised plan was to "abolish North Korea as a functioning state, end the rule of its leader, Kim Jong Il, and reorganize the country under South Korean control."

Makes Bush sound like a really nice guy. I don't remember anyone giving an order in Iraq that would translate as "We will kill them all".

Moral of the Story? Moral of the story is that after the ongoing "meetings after meetings"...If the talks are not going the way we expected...we should not Pull all your big guns and break havoc...we should not start shooting killing people...

All we need to do when they are stalling...is walk away.
We dont need to shoot if they dont shoot first.

Preemptive strikes are going to create wars and terror.

Moral of the story is that after the ongoing "meetings after meetings"...If the talks are not going the way we expected...we should not Pull all your big guns and break havoc...we should not start shooting killing people...

All we need to do when they are stalling...is walk away.
We dont need to shoot if they dont shoot first.

Preemptive strikes are going to create wars and terror.

1) You cut out the rest of what I said! Good job genious.

2) If talks fail then its time for war.

3) Have your sunscreen! Hope you don't live on the west coast or in Pyongyang for that matter because if we followed your logic, that is exactly what would happen.

Moral of the story is that after the ongoing "meetings after meetings"...If the talks are not going the way we expected...we should not Pull all your big guns and break havoc...we should not start shooting killing people...

All we need to do when they are stalling...is walk away.
We dont need to shoot if they dont shoot first.

Preemptive strikes are going to create wars and terror.
By the time you see the mushroom cloud, it is too late...

Excuse me but I support anyone that tries to defend itself from Arab terrorist agression!

Strange that it is often right wing Americans such as yourself that funded the IRAs terroist bombing of innocent English then isn't it? Oh wait, that is different because they are not inferiour beings. Sorry. My mistake.

Strange that it is often right wing Americans such as yourself that funded the IRAs terroist bombing of innocent English then isn't it? Oh wait, that is different because they are not inferiour beings. Sorry. My mistake.
The only guy I know who funded IRA terrorist actions is a democrat, the nominaly left wing of American politics.

Moral of the story is that after the ongoing "meetings after meetings"...If the talks are not going the way we expected...we should not Pull all your big guns and break havoc...we should not start shooting killing people...

All we need to do when they are stalling...is walk away.
We dont need to shoot if they dont shoot first.

Preemptive strikes are going to create wars and terror.

The difference between Iraq and North Korea is that Iraq was not a desperate country.

North Korea doesn't have anything worth invading for. They can't get any attention from the world without making irrational threats.

North Korea wants the US to sign a document that states that the US will not attack North Korea under any conditions. This would be a violation of many treaties, not to mention UN Resolution 90. The reason that North Korea wants this signed is because if it wants to threaten or attack the South, it does not want the US to interfere.

They could very well threaten to use these nuclear weapons if the South does not agree to surrender to them. They could very well make the same threat to Japan.

Right now, the North Koreans are starving to death. Not the "rumors" of starving - we're talking about heaps of bodies visible from satellites. They are a desperate people - a desperate country - with a leader whose foreign policy strategy makes Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi.

You will notice that the US is doing exactly what you're asking for - waiting.

We are doing this by the book - through the UN, through the IAEA, and through local multi-lateral talks - neighboring countries who are concerned.

We are doing it by the book because the whole world took a shit in our face when we did things one on one.

Now, compare our current stance to the one I just posted from the Clinton years where the plan was "We will kill them all".

Makes Bill Clinton sound like Hitler, doesn't it?

Moral of the story is that after the ongoing "meetings after meetings"...If the talks are not going the way we expected...we should not Pull all your big guns and break havoc...we should not start shooting killing people...
All we need to do when they are stalling...is walk away.
We dont need to shoot if they dont shoot first.
Preemptive strikes are going to create wars and terror.By the time you see the mushroom cloud, it is too late...
ww3? its your call...press the red button..and live with the consequenses.

Strange that it is often right wing Americans such as yourself that funded the IRAs terroist bombing of innocent English then isn't it? Oh wait, that is different because they are not inferiour beings. Sorry. My mistake.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/reports/america.html

I thought it was the Democratic Party that really liked Sinn Fein.

I remember Democrats raising money in Irish bars in this area in the 1970s for "the cause". And they didn't mean the Democratic Party. These were ethnic Irish and their sympathizers who were members of the local Democratic Party.

More reason to bomb it, and have it become a province of a united Korea.

I say nuke'em now. That way they can't nuke anyone if they are radioactive dust. :-D

LOL!! Now if you didn't believe they had Nukes up to this point.....omg..

Anyways, its been obvious they have been making nukes. Every since we picked up heavy uranium readings and noticed there Nuclear Plants were activated.

I just can't wait till WWIII now. I really want to laugh as N. Korea being the first to fall. ( Think of it, not a lot of people like N Korea lol... )

That already has been tried! North Korea broke that agreement. Do you even follow the news? And as far as Iraq goes, the US held meeting after meeting, and resolution after resolution with the UN. Nothing happened.
Something happened alright....the US invaded Iraq without Security Council agreement. However, best leave that to another thread.

The US has also had resolutions against her and for that matter so has Israel. The US just vetoes anything against Israel or the US. Also should be dealt with on another thread.

so what?

Did the US hold Talks with Iran before invading Iraq?

NK says the 6 ways talks are going nowhere...
and Indeed they are going nowhere...

its time ti try 1on1...unless Bush is scared to sit alone.

its not about invasion.. China, japan, and south korea are all countries who do not want to see North Korea with a nuke.. beacuse it is extermely distabalizing.. we dont include brazil or south africa or canada because North Korea dosn't have the continental missles to strike those countries.. any nuke North korea uses is gonna be on a missle which can only hit south korea, japan, or china.. '

The US engaged in 1on1 talks before with clinton and what happend... N.Korea just hid their program and advanced it.

I say nuke'em now. That way they can't nuke anyone if they are radioactive dust. :-D
The sad part, is that I believe that you really do thing that is the best answer. Thank God that you are nowhere near the controls.

IF you do believe that is the answer, then your already suffering credibility goes to zero!!

Something happened alright....the US invaded Iraq without Security Council agreement. However, best leave that to another thread.

The US has also had resolutions against her and for that matter so has Israel. The US just vetoes anything against Israel or the US. Also should be dealt with on another thread.

oh no no.. N.Korea didn't just advance thier program from when the US invaded IRaq till today.. They advanced their program from the day Clinton signed that agreement!

and unless those resolutions have been passed..t hey are moot.. Britian and France and Russia have all had resolutions against them as well.. there is no difference! But when a resolution is passed, ie against IRaq and nothing is done... that is saying something about the legitimacy of the so called "international law"..

but that is best left for another thread

LOL!! Now if you didn't believe they had Nukes up to this point.....omg..

Anyways, its been obvious they have been making nukes. Every since we picked up heavy uranium readings and noticed there Nuclear Plants were activated.

I just can't wait till WWIII now. I really want to laugh as N. Korea being the first to fall. ( Think of it, not a lot of people like N Korea lol... )

they've yet to test their so called nuke.. last year they said they hinted that they had 2 nukes... now they proclaim having one... its very possible they are bluffing you know

Even if they have a nuke, their missle technology is seriously lacking substance

they've yet to test their so called nuke.. last year they said they hinted that they had 2 nukes... now they proclaim having one... its very possible they are bluffing you know

Even if they have a nuke, their missle technology is seriously lacking substance
what rock have you been living under?

1) north korea blew a hole in a mountain a couple months back
2) the north koreans posess missiles that can reach our west coast, and with nukes you really dont have to be too accurate

The North Koreans stated that they were arming themselves with nukes as a method of "self Defence". Even though their nukes can't hit anywhere further that Japan or China I've heard that they're busy developing larger and more powerful missiles that can travel to Alaska.
The US, China, South Korea and Japan never really got that far in the talks with North Korea and I suspect that all that time, North Korea was just stalling to by time for the nukes to be manufactured secretly.

what rock have you been living under?

1) north korea blew a hole in a mountain a couple months back
2) the north koreans posess missiles that can reach our west coast, and with nukes you really dont have to be too accurate
You don't need nukes to make big explosions. If it was clear from the explosion in the mountain that it was nuclear, they wouldn't need to proclaim they have nukes.

Something happened alright....the US invaded Iraq without Security Council agreement. However, best leave that to another thread.

And we didn't need it because of past UN Resolutions. Your right. Leave it for another thread.

The US has also had resolutions against her and for that matter so has Israel. The US just vetoes anything against Israel or the US. Also should be dealt with on another thread.

Then why bring it up? Because your trying to score points. Sorry, this is a washout!

No, the US should start bombing N. Korea's air defenses and air bases.
Have to disagree with you on that one. The US should accept NK's invitation for bi-lateral talks. IF the US has any really good negotiators (I have my doubts), then perhaps those discussions could be expanded to include the neighbouring countries.

Peace should always be the goal, not annihilation and assimilation.

its not about invasion.. China, japan, and south korea are all countries who do not want to see North Korea with a nuke.. beacuse it is extermely distabalizing.. we dont include brazil or south africa or canada because North Korea dosn't have the continental missles to strike those countries.. any nuke North korea uses is gonna be on a missle which can only hit south korea, japan, or china.. '

Actually they could hit the West Coast of Canada as well as the West Coast of the US. However, Canada is not an important country military wise. China, Japan, South Korea, Russia, and the US are.

The US engaged in 1on1 talks before with clinton and what happend... N.Korea just hid their program and advanced it.

Yep. Never do that again is the moral of that story.

The sad part, is that I believe that you really do thing that is the best answer. Thank God that you are nowhere near the controls.

No I do not think that is the best answer. I just wanted to see what you would say and I was right about what you would say. If North Korea does launch a nuclear missile, Pyongyang will be turned to radioactive dust.

IF you do believe that is the answer, then your already suffering credibility goes to zero!!

Nope, do not believe that is the best answer! I do think though that something should be done and I hope it doesn't lead to war. If it does, North Korea doesn't stand a chance.

what rock have you been living under?

1) north korea blew a hole in a mountain a couple months back

And there was NO RADIATION!!! Therefor, it WAS NOT a nuke.

2) the north koreans posess missiles that can reach our west coast, and with nukes you really dont have to be too accurate

But they are not accurate at all. If they launch, I hate to see the missile land in Canada when it is aimed at the United States.

Have to disagree with you on that one. The US should accept NK's invitation for bi-lateral talks. IF the US has any really good negotiators (I have my doubts), then perhaps those discussions could be expanded to include the neighbouring countries.

Peace should always be the goal, not annihilation and assimilation.

Bi-Lateral talks have already been refused by the US Government. If any Bi-lateral talks take place, then it will be on the sidelines of the 6-nation talks.

Nope, do not believe that is the best answer! I do think though that something should be done ....
something like what?

something like what?

Right now multi-lateral talks! If they test a nuclear bomb, then I would consider taking them out by any means possible.

I agree that the U.S. should accept bi-lateral agreements; frankly, I've been confused for years as to why they haven't. In addition, it's been obvious for years that the DPRK has had nukes; they've reprocessed over 8000 spent fuel rods and redoubled their research funding for enriched uranium mining and plutonium efficiency programs. If you don't mind reading it, here's my Model UN Resolution (written yesterday) on yhe topic. I realize that it calls for rather drastic measures, but I feel that drastic measures are what the situation requires.
------------------------------------------------
Subject: Asia
Sponsored by: Republic of the Philippines
Submitted to: First Political Committee
Date: April 6, 2005

RECALLING the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) of 1968, the Statute of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) of 1959, and the Joint North-South Declaration on the Denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula of 1992, and

APPLAUDING the Agreed Framework of 1994 signed by the United States of America and the Democratic People’s Republic of (North) Korea, and

DISHEARTENED that in recent years, North Korea’s actions, namely the expulsion of UN inspectors, the re-opening of plutonium production facilities, and the reprocessing of over 8000 spent fuel rods, have caused the nation to be in violation of all of the above documents, and

NOTING WITH CONCERN North Korea’s recent hostility to surrounding nations, especially Japan and South Korea, including a recent surge in plutonium processing and uranium enrichment programs; acts of isolation; refusal to increase basic civil, human, and political rights; the refusal to return to six-party talks aimed at solving the North Korean nuclear crisis; the repeated lockout of UN inspectors; the use of intimidation as a method of diplomacy; and an intentionally visible mushroom cloud predicted to be a nuclear weapons test, and

AWARE that North Korea has stated that it will consider economic sanctions an act of war, but certain that if the issue remains unresolved, tensions will surely increase until conflict erupts between nuclear-equipped nations;

1) DEMANDS that North Korea immediately return to six-party talks, allow UN inspectors whenever the IAEA feels an inspection is warranted, and freeze nuclear weapons production;

2) ESTABLISHES a Denuclearization Program of 2005 in which:
a. North Korea increases civil and human rights in accordance with the recommendations of the United Nations Human Rights Watch in exchange for food and medical supplies aid;
b. North Korea halts plutonium, uranium, and nuclear power research over five years in exchange for alternative energy research funding over seven years;
c. North Korea immediately discloses their current nuclear strength, including plutonium and uranium reserves and number of nuclear weapons in exchange for UN permission to keep those weapons already built;

3) PROPOSES that if North Korea is found not to be in compliance with the above clauses, then the following measures be taken:
a. China, Thailand, Japan, Germany, and South Korea, North Korea’s major trading partners, are to reduce their import/export relations with North Korea by 75% over two years;
b. All other UN members are to reduce their import/export relations with North Korea by 100% over two years;
c. As North Korea has said that it will consider economic sanctions an act of war, all trading partners are encouraged to heighten military alert and national security measures; should any nation be attacked by North Korea for participating in sanctions, the UN will designate a suitable military force from a willing nation that shall have UN approval for appropriate retaliation;

ENCOURAGES the United Nations to adapt the above Denuclearization Program to potential future situations of similar gravity.
-------------------------------------------------------

Right now multi-lateral talks! If they test a nuclear bomb, then I would consider taking them out by any means possible.
Wait a second now. NK doesn't have the right to possess nuclear weapons and test them? Doesn't NK have the right to protect themselves, especially since Bush declared NK as part of the Axis of Terror?

President Bush says Iraq is part of an "axis of evil" threatening the world's peace. He says he will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten the US with the world's most destructive weapons.

NK has already noticed what the US did with Iraq (also a member of Bush's Axis of Terror). IF you were NK, would you sit back idly and wait for the US to invade you?

I'm honestly not surprised. If you were a dictator and a contry was going around destroying dictatorships what would you do?

The reason the U.S. had refused talks is because we know they will get nowhere at all.

I doubt North Korea will use there nukes but if they do well I hope south korea doesn't mind becomming and island nation (With bunker-busting nukes we could do that).

Right now North Korea hasn't done anything to make the U.S. extremly angry. But they still have the worst dictator in power (whose evilness can only be outdone by Hitler's)

Right now multi-lateral talks! multi-lateral talks are going nowhere...
... If they test a nuclear bomb....we have to asume they have nukes.

I agree that the U.S. should accept bi-lateral agreements; frankly, I've been confused for years as to why they haven't. In addition, it's been obvious for years that the DPRK has had nukes; they've reprocessed over 8000 spent fuel rods and redoubled their research funding for enriched uranium mining and plutonium efficiency programs. If you don't mind reading it, here's my Model UN Resolution (written yesterday) on yhe topic. I realize that it calls for rather drastic measures, but I feel that drastic measures are what the situation requires.

Perhaps it stems from a 1994 agreement that the North Koreans violated making the US look like fools. We won't be fools like that again. Besides, the US Government as ALREADY REJECTED bi-lateral Talks.

------------------------------------------------
Subject: Asia
Sponsored by: Republic of the Philippines
Submitted to: First Political Committee
Date: April 6, 2005

This should be good.

RECALLING the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) of 1968, the Statute of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) of 1959, and the Joint North-South Declaration on the Denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula of 1992, and

APPLAUDING the Agreed Framework of 1994 signed by the United States of America and the Democratic People’s Republic of (North) Korea, and

DISHEARTENED that in recent years, North Korea’s actions, namely the expulsion of UN inspectors, the re-opening of plutonium production facilities, and the reprocessing of over 8000 spent fuel rods, have caused the nation to be in violation of all of the above documents, and

NOTING WITH CONCERN North Korea’s recent hostility to surrounding nations, especially Japan and South Korea, including a recent surge in plutonium processing and uranium enrichment programs; acts of isolation; refusal to increase basic civil, human, and political rights; the refusal to return to six-party talks aimed at solving the North Korean nuclear crisis; the repeated lockout of UN inspectors; the use of intimidation as a method of diplomacy; and an intentionally visible mushroom cloud predicted to be a nuclear weapons test, and

AWARE that North Korea has stated that it will consider economic sanctions an act of war, but certain that if the issue remains unresolved, tensions will surely increase until conflict erupts between nuclear-equipped nations;

Nice beginning. Very well put. I did like it. Spelled out quite nicely. Except for one thing. The 1994 agreement was violated by the North Koreans. As for a denuclearization treaty of 1992, that is the first time I've heard of it. I guess North Korea didn't care for it anyway and thus a treaty violation. Now on to the resolution itself.

1) DEMANDS that North Korea immediately return to six-party talks, allow UN inspectors whenever the IAEA feels an inspection is warranted, and freeze nuclear weapons production;

This will get flatly rejected by North Korea. China will sign on to this because they don't want a nuclear armed neighbor because they know that the other countries in the area (Japan and South Korea) could then pursue nuclear weapons themselves.

2) ESTABLISHES a Denuclearization Program of 2005 in which:
a. North Korea increases civil and human rights in accordance with the recommendations of the United Nations Human Rights Watch in exchange for food and medical supplies aid;
b. North Korea halts plutonium, uranium, and nuclear power research over five years in exchange for alternative energy research funding over seven years;
c. North Korea immediately discloses their current nuclear strength, including plutonium and uranium reserves and number of nuclear weapons in exchange for UN permission to keep those weapons already built;

Again, Nicely written. I do like it! To bad North Korea won't follow it. They claim to have nuclear weapons. Do you expect an insane dictator to give them up? Not me.

3) PROPOSES that if North Korea is found not to be in compliance with the above clauses, then the following measures be taken:
a. China, Thailand, Japan, Germany, and South Korea, North Korea’s major trading partners, are to reduce their import/export relations with North Korea by 75% over two years;
b. All other UN members are to reduce their import/export relations with North Korea by 100% over two years;
c. As North Korea has said that it will consider economic sanctions an act of war, all trading partners are encouraged to heighten military alert and national security measures; should any nation be attacked by North Korea for participating in sanctions, the UN will designate a suitable military force from a willing nation that shall have UN approval for appropriate retaliation;

NOw your giving North Korea to much wiggle room. We went through this with Saddam Hussein. He played the system. Kim Jong Il will do the samething because he knows that the UN doesn't act at all. As for nations being attacked, the only two on that list that can be hit is South Korea and China. Who would be first? South Korea. As for a UN Approved force, is Resolution 90 still in effect?

ENCOURAGES the United Nations to adapt the above Denuclearization Program to potential future situations of similar gravity.
-------------------------------------------------------

It was great in theory! I did like it. I would even support it if it was ever introduced. However, North Korea won't bargin and they won't accept it and if they did, probably won't follow it.

Keep up the good work though. You may have a future in International Affairs if you choose to pursue it.

Wait a second now. NK doesn't have the right to possess nuclear weapons and test them? Doesn't NK have the right to protect themselves, especially since Bush declared NK as part of the Axis of Terror?

Axis of Evil but I won't quivel with it since you provided a quote

President Bush says Iraq is part of an "axis of evil" threatening the world's peace. He says he will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten the US with the world's most destructive weapons.

That is what he said but so far, he hasn't taken a threatening tone with North Korea. Why is North Korea running scared when we haven't done a thing. All North Korea did was violate treaties and we taken stances when they did but never a threatening tone. Just cut off its fuel and food supplies.

NK has already noticed what the US did with Iraq (also a member of Bush's Axis of Terror). IF you were NK, would you sit back idly and wait for the US to invade you?

They've been working on this LONG BEFORE President Bush 43 took office. Don't blame Bush for our current crisis. If anything, blame the UN for not finishing of North Korea back in the Korean War.

multi-lateral talks are going nowhere...
we have to asume they have nukes.

Because North Korea wants Bi-lateral talks and the US has rejected it.

Assume yes but do they? That is a good question.

Just cut off its fuel and food supplies.


Oh, brilliant. Punish their government by starving their people to death.

I've seen a worrying amount of people scream for blood and annihilation in this thread. Has it even occurred to you that there are millions of innocent people living in North Korea, and it's the blood of these millions of innocents you're asking to pour onto your own hands by nuking the country? What are you, stone age numbskulls? Just because you oppose a regime doesn't mean all the people living in that country are evil terrorists (and I'm appalled I even need to point this out). Hello, wake up call, they're human beings just like us... 'Pre-emptively' glassing the country would be on a par with the worst act of genocide ever committed by mankind.

Now. North Korea will never nuke anyone. At least not as a first strike. Of that I am certain. It would make no sense. Kim is not suicidal. Besides, those of you who think he would have obviously been gobbling up too much Bushist propaganda and not paying attention to the real situation, nor using your own reasoning. South Korea's "sunshine policy" is having significant results in loosening tensions between the two Korean states. If you think South Korea would welcome an American attack on North Korea, you know nothing about Korea whatsoever.

Oh, brilliant. Punish their government by starving their people to death.

I've seen a worrying amount of people scream for blood and annihilation in this thread. Has it even occurred to you that there are millions of innocent people living in North Korea, and it's the blood of these millions of innocents you're asking to pour onto your own hands by nuking the country? What are you, stone age numbskulls? Just because you oppose a regime doesn't mean all the people living in that country are evil terrorists (and I'm appalled I even need to point this out). Hello, wake up call, they're human beings just like us... 'Pre-emptively' glassing the country would be on a par with the worst act of genocide ever committed by mankind.

Now. North Korea will never nuke anyone. At least not as a first strike. Of that I am certain. It would make no sense. Kim is not suicidal. Besides, those of you who think he would have obviously been gobbling up too much Bushist propaganda and not paying attention to the real situation, nor using your own reasoning. South Korea's "sunshine policy" is having significant results in loosening tensions between the two Korean states. If you think South Korea would welcome an American attack on North Korea, you know nothing about Korea whatsoever.

North Korea is pretty bad as nations go, but I have some appreciation for Kim...

Oh, brilliant. Punish their government by starving their people to death.

This better be sarcasm because Kim Jong Il has been starving his own people.

Have to disagree with you on that one. The US should accept NK's invitation for bi-lateral talks. IF the US has any really good negotiators (I have my doubts), then perhaps those discussions could be expanded to include the neighbouring countries.

Peace should always be the goal, not annihilation and assimilation.

Compared to spending money to restart a nuclear weapons program?
Compared to NOT spending the money to feed your own people?
Compared to confining starving people in concentration camps all because they are starving?

NK was in a deep hole after Communism croaked in Russia and China started relations with S.Korea. When the famine/floods hit in the '90s, they decided nuclear blackmail was better than buying food!

1. Starve his own people: Japan AND South Korea sent 650,000 TONS of rice to North Korea. (The construction of these new half-submerged type grain storage facilities began at the end of 1995, when foreign relief goods from international organizations and western countries were sent to North Korea right after floods damage crops. The construction of these grain storage facilities aroused suspicions that the 150,000 tons of rice provided to North Korea by the ROK Government and the 500,000 tons of rice provided by the Japanese Government were diverted for military purposes.)
CNN: June 11,1996;Citing North Korea's severe food shortage, South Korea, Japan and the United States have pledged $15 million in relief aid for the flood-stricken Communist nation.The nations were responding to last week's international appeal by the United Nations for $43.6 million to help ease the effects of devastating floods in North Korea last summer. Japan, which is donating $6 million, and South Korea, which has pledged $3 million, announced their donations Tuesday. The United States said last week it would provide $6 million.Although North Korea and South Korea never signed a formal peace treaty after the Korean War ended in 1953, Kwon O-Kie, South Korea's minister of unification, said Seoul is donating milk powder and baby formula as a humanitarian gesture.




2. Incarcerate starving people fleeing North Korea. Amnesty International: (Amnesty International is concerned at recent reports that North Koreans held in some places of detention are given little or no food and that many die as a result of starvation and disease. Food shortages have led many people to leave their locality and seek food elsewhere in the country. Since 1997 the North Korean authorities are reported to have established makeshift detention centres to hold homeless people and those who have left their locality or tried to leave the country in order to seek food. Children are also reported to have been detained in such institutions. Most of these reports of abuses have been gathered from aid workers and foreign journalists who interviewed North Koreans in China. Although the information cannot be independently verified, the reports are consistent and suggest a pattern of human rights violations.)
Freedom House:Since 1994, some 2.4 million North Koreans, or ten percent of the population, are estimated to have died from hunger. However, the government still bars international relief agencies from working in many famine-stricken counties for “security reasons.” There were also reports that food aid was diverted to the military and government officials. The food shortage is the result of a combination of floods and droughts in recent years, a legacy of agricultural mismanagement and the end of food subsidies from former Communist states.



3. Amazingly, found the money to restart a nuclear weapons program, yet couldn't find the money to feed his own people!
Freedom House:Pyongyang continued its high-risk game of missile and nuclear threats to extract aid from the United States and Japan. On August 31, 1998, North Korea launched a three-stage missile, which flew over the northern Japanese island of Hokkaido and crashed into the Pacific Ocean. Pyongyang claimed that the launch was part of an effort to put a satellite into space.