NationStates Jolt Archive

Right-wing Christian Americans have been telephoning [Canadian] MPs to tell them how to vote on the proposed Civil Marriage Act. One Ontario MP has said she has received 30 calls from Americans in the last 10 days.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050208.wcoal8/BNStory/Front/

I think it's very interesting that after the uproar and furor over Europeans writing letters to right-wing/Republican supporters asking them not to vote for Bush, that right-wing/Republican supporters are now phoning Canadian Members of Parliament to tell them how to vote on the same-sex marriage issue.

First we had Michael Moore and Ralph Nader encouraging Canadians not to vote Conservative in our late June 2004 federal election. Michael Moore as a publicity stunt for Farenheit 9-11, which came out two days before the election and Nader in an open letter to Canadians published in at least one major national newspaper. This turned out to be a very, very small issue in the Canadian election - most people ignored both messages, although there was a small group who wanted to sue Michael Moore for his interference, saying that he was breaking a section in the Elections Act. I note that no one talked about suing Nader, at least not that I heard.

Then a British newspaper, The Guardian encouraged Europeans to send letters to Republican voters in a swing town in a swing state, urging them not to vote for George W, and a huge furor broke out, over Europeans trying to influence American elections. Fair enough. They were indeed trying to.

And now, as we Canadians watch our federal politicians slowly drag their butts into a vote over same-sex marriage (I'm so tired of this story - I just want them to vote and bloody well get it over with! There are more important issues being ignored because of this.), suddenly the average US social conservative/Focus on the Family supporter/Republican voter, is calling ourMP's and telling them to vote against the same sex marriage bill.

So, why is it bad for Europeans to try to influence American politics, when the same people denouncing those tactics are trying to influence Canadian politics?

Am I wrong to be angry about this?

Right-wing Christian Americans have been telephoning [Canadian] MPs to tell them how to vote on the proposed Civil Marriage Act. One Ontario MP has said she has received 30 calls from Americans in the last 10 days.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050208.wcoal8/BNStory/Front/

I think it's very interesting that after the uproar and furor over Europeans writing letters to right-wing/Republican supporters asking them not to vote for Bush, that right-wing/Republican supporters are now phoning Canadian Members of Parliament to tell them how to vote on the same-sex marriage issue.

First we had Michael Moore and Ralph Nader encouraging Canadians not to vote Conservative in our late June 2004 federal election. Michael Moore as a publicity stunt for Farenheit 9-11, which came out two days before the election and Nader in an open letter to Canadians published in at least one major national newspaper. This turned out to be a very, very small issue in the Canadian election - most people ignored both messages, although there was a small group who wanted to sue Michael Moore for his interference, saying that he was breaking a section in the Elections Act. I note that no one talked about suing Nader, at least not that I heard.

Then a British newspaper, The Guardian encouraged Europeans to send letters to Republican voters in a swing town in a swing state, urging them not to vote for George W, and a huge furor broke out, over Europeans trying to influence American elections. Fair enough. They were indeed trying to.

And now, as we Canadians watch our federal politicians slowly drag their butts into a vote over same-sex marriage (I'm so tired of this story - I just want them to vote and bloody well get it over with! There are more important issues being ignored because of this.), suddenly the average US social conservative/Focus on the Family supporter/Republican voter, is calling ourMP's and telling them to vote against the same sex marriage bill.

So, why is it bad for Europeans to try to influence American politics, when the same people denouncing those tactics are trying to influence Canadian politics?

Am I wrong to be angry about this?
NO, you are not wrong. I think... Wait! I do? Weird... I think.. Wait! I do? Weird... I think *continues repeating the pattern*

Am I wrong to be angry about this?
nope, you are quite right. those people are hypocrites, and are also sticking their noses in where they do not belong. the Canadian government is supposed to serve its people, not the American people, and the opinions of Americans don't matter in this case.

What goes around, comes around!

What goes around, comes around!

What does that mean? When did Canadians start calling US Congressmen telling them how to vote? Sure, we comment to ourselves and editorialize in newspapers, but geez, everybody does that. It's called taking an interest in global politics.

What does that mean? When did Canadians start calling US Congressmen telling them how to vote? Sure, we comment to ourselves and editorialize in newspapers, but geez, everybody does that. It's called taking an interest in global politics.

Everyone was sooo concerned with our recent elections. Remember how the world was pretty much against Bush? Canada didn't seem to be in all that much in favor of him. We are just responding to that stuff with more zeal, which is ok! Sure, we may be calling your MP's but hey, they don't have to take those calls. Block any US numbers coming into those offices.

Everyone was sooo concerned with our recent elections. Remember how the world was pretty much against Bush? Canada didn't seem to be in all that much in favor of him. We are just responding to that stuff with more zeal, which is ok! Sure, we may be calling your MP's but hey, they don't have to take those calls. Block any US numbers coming into those offices.

Hello! People are allowed to have opinions. In fact, it's pretty much impossible to stop people from having opinions. We both live in free countries.

The point is, Canadian citizens have never made the news for trying to influence how Americans and their political representatives vote. American Republican supporters were very angry over European attempts to influence them. But now US social conservatives are actively trying to influence our MPs.

Can you really not recognize the inherent hypocrisy in these acts?

These MPs probably won't listen because if they did, they'd lose in the next election. They only listen to people in their riding. And, they are electec in certain ridings due to their views. Like, NDP get elected in ridings that are pro-socialist policies, MPs of the Bloc run in Quebec and get seats because the people there don't want American influence in this country. The only MPs who would listen are the Conservatives... *shrug* But even then, they shouldn't because then it would get them unelected... Maybe that's not such a bad thing. Maybe then we'll get the NDP government we deserve.

the thing that makes this even worse is that the president of america is one of the most powerful men in the world. it actually does affect us when a war-hungry moron gets that kind of power, but how does a couple of gay guys getting married in a different country affect some pathetic old men in america. they are going to be having their hot gay arse sex whether their married or not, what in fucks name do they care if another country recognises legally? i mean seriously, they care enough to pick up a phone and make an international phone call in the hope of disrupting the happiness of a few canadian queers who they're never going to meet? are they that fascist? they're not coming into their houses and fucking each other on your table when they're trying to eat dinner. the us president is capable of fucking up the world, what are a few thousand gay guys going to do to your quality of life? your kids might find out that gay guys exist? shock horror! if you shelter your kids like that they're going to get a whore pregnant then run-off, get a sex-change and become a minister of the church of satan out of spite.

Glabalization strikes politics.

Yes it is hypocritical if the same individuals that complained of outside opinion ibeing expressed in the US elections are now doing expressing outside opinion concerning Canadian political activity. They may try and escape the charge however by arguing that there is a significant difference between lobbying experienced politicians and lobbying the "politically naive" general public. If they do it shows their opinion of their electorate.

However, opinion formation is now a culture wide thing. The mass media does not stop at national bounaries, and the political events in one country have knock on effects in many others.

So it should be expected that countries that share the same culture, and in particular the same language, will start to have effects on each others political landscapes. The only real alternative to this would be the complete censorship of all foreign press. I prefer to have the Americans trying to influence the voting of Canadian or British or Brazilian MPs rather than outright censorship

So, why is it bad for Europeans to try to influence American politics, when the same people denouncing those tactics are trying to influence Canadian politics?

Am I wrong to be angry about this?

It's bad either way. But, the people at the Guardian still think they were right to do it. So, if you tell Americans it's ok for extranational players to call people on the phone, and even after the Americans get mad and vote the other way in any case, the Americans are going to think,

"Hey, all these foreigners believe it's OK to call Americans on the phone and influence elections. Therefore, it is completely logical to assume that they believe that calling another country's voters is a good, rational, and justifiable act. So, give me that phone book - I'm calling some Canadians right now."

If you want to blame someone for starting this, blame the Guardian UK.

It can't be helped if the US picks up an idea that was vigorously defended in international circles. It's not as though the US thought of the idea. We would have been happier if no one had called Ohio voters.

The cat, however, is out of the bag.

the thing that makes this even worse is that the president of america is one of the most powerful men in the world. it actually does affect us when a war-hungry moron gets that kind of power, but how does a couple of gay guys getting married in a different country affect some pathetic old men in america. they are going to be having their hot gay arse sex whether their married or not, what in fucks name do they care if another country recognises legally? i mean seriously, they care enough to pick up a phone and make an international phone call in the hope of disrupting the happiness of a few canadian queers who they're never going to meet? are they that fascist? they're not coming into their houses and fucking each other on your table when they're trying to eat dinner. the us president is capable of fucking up the world, what are a few thousand gay guys going to do to your quality of life? your kids might find out that gay guys exist? shock horror! if you shelter your kids like that they're going to get a whore pregnant then run-off, get a sex-change and become a minister of the church of satan out of spite.


Dobbs, here's your example of someone outside the United States who believes that his country is better than America - but seems to be incapable of getting his thoughts together. I'm sorry if the example is unclear, but it's there, and I didn't even have to search for it. I'm sure you'll find that by his opinion, America is responsible for every bad thing from the Iraq War to "arse fucking".

Ooh. I can't wait to get a whore pregnant. Of course, I'll be at it for some time, because I've had a vasectomy....

They can call all they want, but we need to draw the line when they start sending tons of US greenbacks to the Far North to influence the anti-gay marriage vote.

These MPs probably won't listen because if they did, they'd lose in the next election. They only listen to people in their riding. And, they are electec in certain ridings due to their views. Like, NDP get elected in ridings that are pro-socialist policies, MPs of the Bloc run in Quebec and get seats because the people there don't want American influence in this country. The only MPs who would listen are the Conservatives... *shrug* But even then, they shouldn't because then it would get them unelected... Maybe that's not such a bad thing. Maybe then we'll get the NDP government we deserve.

Oh, I agree that the MPs probably won't be influenced by calls from the US, at least, as long as they come from individuals, and not the President or important members of Congress on some Trade Commission (remember the pressure the US gov't threatened to put on trade and border crossings if Canada proceeded to decriminalize possession of small amounts of marijuana? Despite the fact that several individual states have already decriminalized it). As we've seen time and time again, Canada frequently buckles when we get pressure from the US gov't, but not from US individuals.

What I disagree with is that MPs will automatically follow the wishes of their constituents. We already know that NDP MPs will be expected to vote the party line (or abstain), and that Liberal members of caucus will have to vote the party line as well. Others come from socially liberal ridings but are personally against gay marriage - will they take the chance that their riding will still vote liberal if they vote no? A liberal riding is unlikely to vote Conservative (especially if they're angry because their MP voted no), and NDP voters are easily frightened into voting 'strategically' for Liberals to keep Conservatives out of power.

Anyway, it's special interest groups that are doing the lobbying within Canada. Groups from both sides of the issue are hammering at MPs with complete disregard for which riding the MPs represent.

But I guess that's all politics as usual.

Everyone was sooo concerned with our recent elections. Remember how the world was pretty much against Bush? Canada didn't seem to be in all that much in favor of him. We are just responding to that stuff with more zeal, which is ok! Sure, we may be calling your MP's but hey, they don't have to take those calls. Block any US numbers coming into those offices.

I can't be bothered to argue, but voting for/against Bush had implications for the rest of the world whereas gay marriage being allowed or not in Canada hardly affects the rest of the world. Hence the issues are of difference importance. True, we over here in the Old World have no right to tell you who you should/shouldn't vote for... but it does partially affect us. That doesn't the sending of all those letters right though.

The point I really wanted to make was that calls are more offensive than letter as a letter canbe thrown away & ignored. Phone calls cannnot be blocked indiscriminately as some of those calls may be important. They are also more invasive in my opinion.

What you should have said was... "What comes around, goes around". lol

It's bad either way. But, the people at the Guardian still think they were right to do it. So, if you tell Americans it's ok for extranational players to call people on the phone, and even after the Americans get mad and vote the other way in any case, the Americans are going to think,

"Hey, all these foreigners believe it's OK to call Americans on the phone and influence elections. Therefore, it is completely logical to assume that they believe that calling another country's voters is a good, rational, and justifiable act. So, give me that phone book - I'm calling some Canadians right now."

If you want to blame someone for starting this, blame the Guardian UK.

It can't be helped if the US picks up an idea that was vigorously defended in international circles. It's not as though the US thought of the idea. We would have been happier if no one had called Ohio voters.

The cat, however, is out of the bag.

I point out that two Americans (Moore and Nader) tried to influence Canadian elections before The Guardian pulled its stunt. I admit that their ideologies are more or less opposite from those who are currently trying to influence Canadian politics, but you can't blame it all on The Guardian.

Especially if the callers can't distinguish Canadian foreigners from European ones.

They can call all they want, but we need to draw the line when they start sending tons of US greenbacks to the Far North to influence the anti-gay marriage vote.

Given that the anti-gay marriage groups in Canada lean heavily on Focus on the Family propaganda (my mom is anti-gay marriage, and many of the pamphlets and articles she receives are written and published in the States), you could say that US greenbacks are involved, although possibly indirectly.

On the other hand, I imagine that some of the pro-gay marriage pamphets (etc) also originate from gay groups in the States. So I guess some people could say it balances out?

On people contacting people in other countries to vote for mister x (or rather against mister y this year):
sure, they try to influence the politics of another nation, but i don't think this one is wrong as long as very few people receive more than one call. The voters still have to make a decision and if the people provide some arguments why person x is good or bad, it's up for the voter to weigh those arguments.

On people contacting mp's or anything equivalent in another country:
The number of mp's is pretty limited, so any action calling on a large group of people to mail them will result in them getting tons of 'junkmail'. If it's from a group within the country it might be not bad as these are the people the mp's should listen too (they don't have to overdo it tho). If it's from a group from another country, it's not good. The mp's will just receive a lot of junkmail from people they should not listen to. A group from another country should instead send one letter stating their arguments and hope it's arguments are good enough.

Bump.

Just because there are other Canadians on the forum now.

Bump.

Just because there are other Canadians on the forum now.

RAWR! (http://www.sorryeverybody.com/)

RAWR! (http://www.sorryeverybody.com/)


This lead me to thinking about somethign absurd...

if America was invaded by a group of nations (because they wanted to oust Bush for his crimes against humanity) and they were actually able to take hold of the country, then they told everyone that they demanded the populace wear an insignia on their clothing which stated whether they were for or against Bush- how many of those 59 million people that voted for him last time do you think would show that they were on Bush's side?

the thing that makes this even worse is that the president of america is one of the most powerful men in the world. it actually does affect us when a war-hungry moron gets that kind of power, but how does a couple of gay guys getting married in a different country affect some pathetic old men in america. they are going to be having their hot gay arse sex whether their married or not, what in fucks name do they care if another country recognises legally? i mean seriously, they care enough to pick up a phone and make an international phone call in the hope of disrupting the happiness of a few canadian queers who they're never going to meet? are they that fascist? they're not coming into their houses and fucking each other on your table when they're trying to eat dinner. the us president is capable of fucking up the world, what are a few thousand gay guys going to do to your quality of life? your kids might find out that gay guys exist? shock horror! if you shelter your kids like that they're going to get a whore pregnant then run-off, get a sex-change and become a minister of the church of satan out of spite.

Okay. Second time in one evening. Go to the penalty box. 3 day ban.

Right-wing Christian Americans have been telephoning [Canadian] MPs to tell them how to vote on the proposed Civil Marriage Act. One Ontario MP has said she has received 30 calls from Americans in the last 10 days.

Am I wrong to be angry about this?

Perhaps. I know I was rather upset when many Canadians were trying to influence the US elections. As I was when there was a campaign in England to have people write to Ohioans to accomplish the same end.

If you want to blame someone for starting this, blame the Guardian UK.

It goes back before that. The US ambassador to Australia made his opinions very public by disparaging the Labour opposition prior to the Australion election.

It's not a new phenomenon.