NationStates Jolt Archive

http://img184.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img184&image=831924510bradkasal0ep.jpg

Marine 1st Sergeant Brad Kasal (in the middle). This photo is from the most recent major offensive in Fallujah. Sgt. Kasal sacrificed his own safety to save a room full of fellow Marines. He ended up taking several AK rounds in the leg. Most of his lower leg was blown away but you can't tell it from this pic. He took rounds in the back which his armor saved him from. He took one round through his butt which passed through both cheeks leaving 4 holes in him. And he also took the brunt of a grenade blast. He jumped on top of a younger Marine to cover him from the fire. He killed the terrorist who did most of the damage to him and his men, and despite a massive loss of blood he never stopped fighting. Notice that he's still holding his pistol. He has been put in for the Medal of Honor for his actions on that day. He already has several Purple Hearts for previous battles throughout his career and he has turned some down so that he could stay with his unit.

This is the sort of man I want on my side!

Me too.... except for that I would be in the army and in Iraq now

Me too.... except for that I would be in the army and in Iraq now

Um ... except for what?? :confused:

Um ... except for what?? :confused:
Pardon my French.... err...

I meant that these sort of people are true heroes, but that *I* wouldn't join the army to meet them.

Pardon my French.... err...

I meant that these sort of people are true heroes, but that *I* wouldn't join the army to meet them.

Oh. Ok. That would definitely fall into the category of "wrong reasons for joining the military." :)

Now THIS is what I call a hero. I was against going to Iraq, but I have a military heritage and understand the need to support troops and understand why they fight, regardless of your political beliefs.

I really hope he does get the Medal Of Honor. He seems to be everything a soldier should be.

A Medal of Honor, wasn't that last given ages ago, in WW2? Thus being very important.

Now THIS is what I call a hero. I was against going to Iraq, but I have a military heritage and understand the need to support troops and understand why they fight, regardless of your political beliefs.

I really hope he does get the Medal Of Honor. He seems to be everything a soldier should be.

Me too. He's far more than what a soldier can reasonably be expected to be. I totally understand his apparent deep need to protect the younger soldiers under his leadership. That's one of the reasons I tried my damndest to re-enlist after 9/11. I figured I would be able to help some of the younger soldiers avoid a few of the pitfalls of combat. Plus, if I may be allowed a bit of arrogance, I'm damned good. :)

Or at least I was, once upon a time.

A Medal of Honor, wasn't that last given ages ago, in WW2? Thus being very important.

The last time it was awarded, other than to the one soldier who was killed while engaging a vastly superior force virtually single-handedly in Iraq, was in Somalia ... to two Delta Force snipers who were killed while protecting wounded.

See http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm for more info on the CMH.

The only time in my life I have seen a roomfull of general officers stand at attention for someone of lower rank was when a CMH winner walked into the room. The CMH is the highest honor the US can bestow.

THIS is what truly amazes me: "Total number of double recipients: 19"

How one man can earn the CMH TWICE is beyond my ability to comprehend!

This is the sort of man I want on my side!

Well, he did sign up right? That's what war is, doesn't make him a hero, just means he was doing his job. We all decide what careers we pick in life, this was his. Does that make him a hero? No, it makes him a man no better or worse than any one else doing his job, that he freely signed up for. - End of story.

A Medal of Honor, wasn't that last given ages ago, in WW2? Thus being very important.
Somalia.

Two US snipers (Gordon and Shugart) roped down to a helicopter crash site and defended the site against a mob of armed Somalis until they ran out of ammunition and were killed and dismembered.

They went down to the crash site knowing that it was unlikely that rescue would be coming in time - but wanted to defend the wounded crew of the crashed helicopter.

In their case, the Medal of Honor was posthumous, as it usually is.

Well, he did sign up right? That's what war is, doesn't make him a hero, just means he was doing his job. We all decide what careers we pick in life, this was his. Does that make him a hero? No, it makes him a man no better or worse than any one else doing his job, that he freely signed up for. - End of story.

No, he could have chosen to not perform the deeds which may result in his being awarded the CMH and still have been "doing his job." The CMH is awarded for "actions above and beyond the call of duty."

Somalia.

Two US snipers (Gordon and Shugart) roped down to a helicopter crash site and defended the site against a mob of armed Somalis until they ran out of ammunition and were killed and dismembered.

They went down to the crash site knowing that it was unlikely that rescue would be coming in time - but wanted to defend the wounded crew of the crashed helicopter.

In their case, the Medal of Honor was posthumous, as it usually is.

614 out of a total of 3459 in the history of the CMH were awarded posthumously.

Eutrusca and Whispering Legs: thanks. http://67.18.37.16/html/emoticons/happy.gif

Yes, putting oneself in danger to protect others is no big thing... after all firefighters, EMTs and police are just doing their jobs as well when they get killed on the job too. :rolleyes:

No, he could have chosen to not perform the deeds which may result in his being awarded the CMH and still have been "doing his job." The CMH is awarded for "actions above and beyond the call of duty."

But since he's an American, nothing he could do would be right or good enough.

Well, he did sign up right? That's what war is, doesn't make him a hero, just means he was doing his job. We all decide what careers we pick in life, this was his. Does that make him a hero? No, it makes him a man no better or worse than any one else doing his job, that he freely signed up for. - End of story.
Well, I'm as antiwar as they come, but you have to realize that there's such a thing as going beyond the call of duty; in this case, keeping on protecting his people even though he had been hit himself more than once. His job doesn't require him to do such thing, being wounded he could just have laid on a corner and waited for someone else to take care of things and then help him out.

Of course, he wouldn't have been wounded if the US hadn't sent him on an unnecessary war, but that's another story.

Same thing in a civilian job, although the stakes aren't as high. You can limit yourself to perform your tasks according to your job description, or you can decide to give more to your company.

Anyway, I was just thinking the photo isn't as graphical and the warning is not required.

Well, he did sign up right? That's what war is, doesn't make him a hero, just means he was doing his job. We all decide what careers we pick in life, this was his. Does that make him a hero? No, it makes him a man no better or worse than any one else doing his job, that he freely signed up for. - End of story.


I disagree...the fact that he jumped on top of another person to save them from a blast, thus risking his life-does make him worthy of recognition. If bullets were flying at you, and someone jumped on top of you to cover you....and they got socked full of bullets, and you knew that those bullets could have very well gone through your head....I think you might label whoever it is that jumped on top of you to protect you a 'hero".

People who are against the war tend to get caught up in their "hate America" crusade, and they ignore the fact that there are real men and women out there risking their LIVES for others and for something they believe in. I dont have to support the war or the governments decision to be over there, but I certainly respect the men and women who risk taking a bullet for someone else. Its not just a job like everyone else. I work at a computer and use a stapler. My biggest hazard is a possible paper-cut. You said : "We all decide what careers we pick in life, this was his. Does that make him a hero? No, it makes him a man no better or worse than any one else doing his job, that he freely signed up for." The fact he joined the military is NOT what made this man a hero in other people's eyes. The fact that he tried to shield others from harm and received serious injury in the process is why they are saying this.

Said with all due respect to you Steph...we just disagree here.

Well, he did sign up right? That's what war is, doesn't make him a hero, just means he was doing his job. We all decide what careers we pick in life, this was his. Does that make him a hero? No, it makes him a man no better or worse than any one else doing his job, that he freely signed up for. - End of story.

I've often heard that Soldiers protesting orders or complaining about their being re-deployed to Iraq should "just do their job" as well, that they freely signed up for the duty of being in Iraq for extended stays. I wonder if they are any less brave or noble than this hero?

So often we ask that a person sacrafice everything to become a hero, so many die bravely in the line duty and are never given that recognition anyway. It sometimes seems to people that we honor the wounded and dead to justify our leading them to the slaughter. One person put it, "Too many damn heroes in this war." another in Vietnam said, "A thousand medals are earned every day in Vietnam, sometimes they even award one."

Calling this man a hero made me happy; he lived, and he saved the lives of others. Perhaps that's why I would like to call him a hero...To ask a man to die, and calling him a hero to his widow...It sounds too empty.

No, he could have chosen to not perform the deeds which may result in his being awarded the CMH and still have been "doing his job." The CMH is awarded for "actions above and beyond the call of duty."

Yeah and I get a Christmas bonus.

I would think him a hero if he was defending his country, but he's not. As you well know he's just following orders.. maybe has an ego and wanted to be the "hero", not always the smart thing. if he has a family at home, kind of a stupid thing really. I will defend MY country.. but I would never defend some one else's country, given they won't end up a democracy any way and they don't even want them there.

This wasn't a war of necessity, it was a war of choice, no hero's in this war. No hero's since Korea, or maybe WWII.

No war since WWII has been of need, but rather of choice.

Yes, putting oneself in danger to protect others is no big thing... after all firefighters, EMTs and police are just doing their jobs as well when they get killed on the job too. :rolleyes:

That is their choice, they decided what job to go after. Lest we not forget that.

I would think him a hero if he was defending his country, but he's not. As you well know he's just following orders.. maybe has an ego and wanted to be the "hero", not always the smart thing. if he has a family at home, kind of a stupid thing really. I will defend MY country.. but I would never defend some one else's country, given they won't end up a democracy any way and they don't even want them there.
Ow, be nice.

That is their choice, they decided what job to go after. Lest we not forget that.
Errr.... Doesn't that make them even greater heroes? People who choose to risk their lives to save others?

Yeah and I get a Christmas bonus.

I would think him a hero if he was defending his country, but he's not. As you well know he's just following orders.. maybe has an ego and wanted to be the "hero", not always the smart thing. if he has a family at home, kind of a stupid thing really. I will defend MY country.. but I would never defend some one else's country, given they won't end up a democracy any way and they don't even want them there.

This wasn't a war of necessity, it was a war of choice, no hero's in this war. No hero's since Korea, or maybe WWII.

No war since WWII has been of need, but rather of choice.
You are a total idiot.

Sgt. Rafael Peralta is being considred as well.

A Medal of Honor, wasn't that last given ages ago, in WW2? Thus being very important.


No. According to http://www.cmohs.org/

The last awards of the Medal of Honor, in a conflict following Vietnam, were awarded posthumously to Army Sergeants Gordon and Shughart for action in Somalia in 1993.

Here are the details (http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/mohsom.htm) for the last two.

Yeah and I get a Christmas bonus.

I would think him a hero if he was defending his country, but he's not. As you well know he's just following orders.. maybe has an ego and wanted to be the "hero", not always the smart thing. if he has a family at home, kind of a stupid thing really. I will defend MY country.. but I would never defend some one else's country, given they won't end up a democracy any way and they don't even want them there.

This wasn't a war of necessity, it was a war of choice, no hero's in this war. No hero's since Korea, or maybe WWII.

No war since WWII has been of need, but rather of choice.

How can one so beautiful be so dismissive of the "beauty" that lies in others? :(

Hate to break up the "I love the U.S. Army" lovefest here, but why is this guy a hero and the other guy a terrorist?

If the alleged terrorist were invading our country, *then* he's a hero? :sniper:

Errr.... Doesn't that make them even greater heroes? People who choose to risk their lives to save others?

Some could argue no, it makes them thrill seekers, ego's so big they can't get their heads though the door. Any one who thinks the war in Iraq was just, doesn't know what they are talking about. Thus how there be hero's in a unjust war!? Makes no sense to me.

Errr.... Doesn't that make them even greater heroes? People who choose to risk their lives to save others?

Lest we forget this, the CMH is for military personnel only.

You are a total idiot.

Is that the best you can do? If so, I think we know who the idiot is and it's not me. ;)

stephistan- i read your prior posts. maybe i missed the part where you mentioned your military service....if i did miss that tidbit, it was only due to my rage at condescending anti americans such as yourself. i am not here to debate, just leave. move out of this great country. we dont need people like you analyzing things they have no experience with. people still bash this country, bash the military, bash the president, yet continue to reside here. i just dont get it, and i never will. i just hope the USA becomes a more hostile place for rejects like you.

Well, he did sign up right? That's what war is, doesn't make him a hero, just means he was doing his job. We all decide what careers we pick in life, this was his. Does that make him a hero? No, it makes him a man no better or worse than any one else doing his job, that he freely signed up for. - End of story.

It is possible to go through service in a combat area and never take any risks. Everyone will still say that you are doing your job, and you'll go home unscathed.

If you, as opposed to those around you, are taking additional risks in order to save the lives of others, it is a very big difference. It is very noticeable.

By that logic, there would be no heroes in the world. You would be asserting that even people like Martin Luther King (he was a pastor - he freely signed up for speaking the truth of his religious viewpoint - he knew that it was dangerous to be black and outspoken in the South in the 1960s) were not heroes.

Steph, you live in a sad, sad world where no one ever does anything worth recognizing. Where no one is special. Where no one ever accomplishes anything. Where you just go "do your job" and go home to nothingness.

Yeah and I get a Christmas bonus.

I would think him a hero if he was defending his country, but he's not. As you well know he's just following orders.. maybe has an ego and wanted to be the "hero", not always the smart thing. if he has a family at home, kind of a stupid thing really. I will defend MY country.. but I would never defend some one else's country, given they won't end up a democracy any way and they don't even want them there.

This wasn't a war of necessity, it was a war of choice, no hero's in this war. No hero's since Korea, or maybe WWII.

No war since WWII has been of need, but rather of choice.


So if I jumped in front of you and took a bullet, you might think I was worthy of being a heroine right? Just some nutcase whos firing bullets at random people in a McDonalds.......ok I risked my life for you. The fact that this man is in a war that you disprove of doesnt take away from the fact that he did the very same thing......shielded another from harm. If your husband was in the military and risked his life for a fellow soilder.....I think youd view him as a hero. And I know you'll say he'd never join the service.....that's irrelavant. You disregard the actions of this man because you have a problem with this war. Unfair I think.

Now if only our politicians would get the same idea: You PROTECT your troops, not happily sacrifice them.

Hey, just my opinion, I am entiled to it right? Doesn't make me right or wrong, it's my opinion. You thinking I don't get it, or live in a sad world is YOUR opinion, no greater or lessor than my own. After all. what good is freedom if we can't express our own opinions? hmmmm

The only time in my life I have seen a roomfull of general officers stand at attention for someone of lower rank was when a CMH winner walked into the room. The CMH is the highest honor the US can bestow.

A question re military etiquette: Do officers salute CMOH recipoients regardless of rank? I recall hearing that somewhere....

And Steph - respectfully please STFU! You are being disrespectful.

Some could argue no, it makes them thrill seekers, ego's so big they can't get their heads though the door. Any one who thinks the war in Iraq was just, doesn't know what they are talking about. Thus how there be hero's in a unjust war!? Makes no sense to me.


Because when you join the military- you have no idea where they will send you! You could be assigned to Alaska to keep watch over the oil reserves, you could be stationed in Washing D.C to serve guard to the White House, OR you could be shipped to Iraq.... these soldiers dont get to chose which battles they fight. They sign up so that they can be a part of a nations defense system. Its arrogant for you to label all the military people in Iraq as thrill seekers with big ego's. You know nothing about who they are. Those are husbands and fathers over there. How do you know what they are like?

Again, because youre so caught up in the fact that you disprove of this war. Guess what....maybe some of them do too.

Hey, just my opinion, I am entiled to it right? Doesn't make me right or wrong, it's my opinion. You thinking I don't get it, or live in a sad world is YOUR opinion, no greater or lessor than my own. After all. what good is freedom if we can't express our own opinions? hmmmm

Just as that soldier was free to lose his leg to save his own men, when he didn't have to do anything at all.

You might note that the larger body of people in the US would give him a medal for that (although he probably didn't ask for a medal). No one is going to ever recognize you for expressing your opinion.

A question re military etiquette: Do officers salute CMOH recipoients regardless of rank? I recall hearing that somewhere....

And Steph - respectfully please STFU! You are being disrespectful.

"The rare soldier who wears the Medal of Honor is accorded special privileges that include higher pay, preference for their children at the U.S. military academies, and the respect and admiration of all other service persons. It is an informal rule that Medal Of Honor recipients, regardless of rank, are saluted by all other service members, including the Commander In Chief."

[ Emphasis added ]

Not to take anything away from this man's actions, but I would say that the only difference between him and a great deal of U.S. soldiers would opportunity and success.

I would wager that a majority would rise to that occassion if the situation arose, but that a slim minority would be successful.

And Steph - respectfully please STFU! You are being disrespectful.

No I'm not, It was an illegal war under every treaty the USA has ever been a signatory member of. Pot, Kettle, Black.

I have no respect for people who commit international illegal crimes, excuse me!

Not to take anything away from this man's actions, but I would say that the only difference between him and a great deal of U.S. soldiers would opportunity and success.

I would wager that a majority would rise to that occassion if the situation arose, but that a slim minority would be successful.

Not to mention all those who performed acts worthy of the CMH but whose exploits were never recognized, for one reason or another. Every member of the nominee's chain of command must endorse the nomination, all the way up to the Commander In Chief ( President of the US ).

stephistan- i read your prior posts. maybe i missed the part where you mentioned your military service....if i did miss that tidbit, it was only due to my rage at condescending anti americans such as yourself. i am not here to debate, just leave. move out of this great country. we dont need people like you analyzing things they have no experience with. people still bash this country, bash the military, bash the president, yet continue to reside here. i just dont get it, and i never will. i just hope the USA becomes a more hostile place for rejects like you.

Well, she's not an American. And second, kicking people out of the country simply because they disagree with the current administration is childish and immature. Or would you like to kick all 57 million people who disapproved of the current president?

Hate to break up the "I love the U.S. Army" lovefest here, but why is this guy a hero and the other guy a terrorist?

He is to his friends. Same as this soldier, to many, like Steph, he's an invader and should not be there in the first place. Personally, I'd like to know more about the person who attacked them, why he felt the need to do so, what were his motiviations, etc. He certainly could just have stayed home and supported the invasion, perhaps get a job in the security forces, but he obviously chose to fight against a much superior enemy and paid with his life.

The sad thing is we will never know.

That's just me, though. Most people will be happy with black and white.

Not to take anything away from this man's actions, but I would say that the only difference between him and a great deal of U.S. soldiers would opportunity and success.

I would wager that a majority would rise to that occassion if the situation arose, but that a slim minority would be successful.
The fact is no one knows what he or she would do in that situation. This man acted courageously, I for one have no idea how I would behave if I was in his shoes.

THIS is what truly amazes me: "Total number of double recipients: 19"

How one man can earn the CMH TWICE is beyond my ability to comprehend!
Those are the ones who managed to survive the crazy shit they pulled the first time and decided to go out and pull some more crazy shit. The question is how many survived the second incident.

The fact is no one knows what he or she would do in that situation. This man acted courageously, I for one have no idea how I would behave if I was in his shoes.

This man is an innocent pawn in an illegal war. He is no hero. Just following orders from men who did every thing they could to get out of serving in war themselves. That's a fact!

No I'm not, It was an illegal war under every treaty the USA has ever been a signatory member of. Pot, Kettle, Black.

I have no respect for people who commit international illegal crimes, excuse me!

It's a war? Ahem. The United States hasn't been in an officially declared war since WW II.

Or am I reading my Constitution incorrectly?

Can you show me the exact "chapter and verse" that makes the war illegal, and under what body the US would be held accountable, and who would do the enforcement for that body?

Or is there no world government?

Have there really been no pre-emptive wars? Or is there such a thing as a "legal and just war"?

Or are you trying to hand out speeding tickets at the Indy 500?

Those are the ones who managed to survive the crazy shit they pulled the first time and decided to go out and pull some more crazy shit. The question is how many survived the second incident.

The difference between Brave and Stupid frequently is the Brave one survived to boast.

A Medal of Honor, wasn't that last given ages ago, in WW2? Thus being very important.

Last were given after Somalia to two DOA US Army snipers :sniper:

Those are the ones who managed to survive the crazy shit they pulled the first time and decided to go out and pull some more crazy shit. The question is how many survived the second incident.

Can't find the stats on that, but I would imagine the same percentage of second awardees posthumously awarded the CMH would be close to the percentage awarded their only CMH posthumously:

614 divided by 3,408 = 18%

19 times 0.18 = 3

So best estimate is 16 double-awardees who survived.

It's a war? Ahem. The United States hasn't been in an officially declared war since WW II.

Perhaps you need to brush up on the Hague conventions of what is a declaration of war.. If you'd like me to explain it to you, just ask, I'll be more than happy to.

What Congress in the US does only effects the US, once you step outside your borders, you are under international law. Your laws mean nothing outside of your borders. FACT!

Footnote - you didn't declare war, Japan did, as did the Germans on Dec.11/41 on you.

The difference between Brave and Stupid frequently is the Brave one survived to boast.

So if I give my life to save someone but get killed in the process, I'm stupid??? :confused:

No I'm not, It was an illegal war under every treaty the USA has ever been a signatory member of. Pot, Kettle, Black.

I have no respect for people who commit international illegal crimes, excuse me!


If you can show the soldier in question committed a war crime, please do so.

What Congress in the US does only effects the US, once you step outside your borders, you are under international law. Your laws mean nothing outside of your borders. FACT!

Any "law" not backed up with the capability to enforce it is no law at all.

Last were given after Somalia to two DOA US Army snipers :sniper:

One soldier has already been awarded the CMH as a result of his actions during combat in Iraq: http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/02/Tampabay/Iraq_hero_joins_hallo.shtml

Perhaps you need to brush up on the Hague conventions of what is a declaration of war.. If you'd like me to explain it to you, just ask, I'll be more than happy to.

What Congress in the US does only effects the US, once you step outside your borders, you are under international law. Your laws mean nothing outside of your borders. FACT!

Footnote - you didn't declare war, Japan did, as did the Germans on Dec.11/41 on you.

The United States is not a signatory to the Hague Conventions. None of them.

Laws have no force if there isn't force to back them. There is no enforcement provision in the Hague Conventions.

I don't see a global embargo on US goods. No freezing of US assets overseas. I don't see invasion fleets off the coast. I don't see foreign bombers in the air over the US.

Come again?

Hey, just my opinion, I am entiled to it right? Doesn't make me right or wrong, it's my opinion. You thinking I don't get it, or live in a sad world is YOUR opinion, no greater or lessor than my own. After all. what good is freedom if we can't express our own opinions? hmmmm

Yes, since this is America and you do live in it you are entitled to your opinion. Just as I am when I say the you are a F**KING IDIOT and a coward.

You, sir (and I use the term loosely) are the type of person that would scream, fall to the ground and piss your pants at the mere sound of a car back-firing. Yet question how, where and when protection is applied.

To you and your "hero" Michael Moore, the insurgents are like the Minute Men of the US Revolution. You are too stupid to look at the tactics that are applied and what makes the difference between a revolutionary and a terrorist.

You have the pleasure of living under the flag of freedom, yet question how that freedom is applied. If you have nothing nice to say about the US Military and those who protect others and are giving them the oppurtunity to determine the type of government they want to have in power for the first time over 40 years, then just STFU, smile and walk away. Knowing that there are brave men and women willing to put their life on the line to protect your stupid f**king ass.

As for what is "above and beyond the call of duty?" That is a phrase that many civilians will never understand. Many believe that if you are in the military your primary mission is to kill. They have no idea what duty is and the concept is beyond them.

P.S. Don't bother to threaten me by saying your are a former moderator, as you have in the past. You now longer are one and are therefore irrelevent in that area.

If you can show the soldier in question committed a war crime, please do so.

I believe there are several on trial as we speak for their war crimes.. (torture)

But you under international law are suppose to disobey an order if you know it to be illegal, remember the Germans tried to get away with the excuse of "just following orders" didn't work for them either. Just because the US refuses to be accountable for their actions (ex. ICC) that doesn't mean they aren't guilty.

Well, she's not an American. And second, kicking people out of the country simply because they disagree with the current administration is childish and immature. Or would you like to kick all 57 million people who disapproved of the current president?

good thing she is not. and i have said before, i dont want to debate this topic, but i will say, is the jobs you have, the university system and the fact that is open for all youth to attend, the fact we can own homes, the fact boston has the BEST football, and baseball teams, the fact that you are not shot and your family harrassed when you speak your views.... all of that you can thank the past presidents, congressmen and senate bodies for. the 57 million people that did not vote or support our president at least had the right to vote. thats another thing that this country and ALL of its people should be thankul for. look up the oath that our military takes, matt. they are sworn to UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION. which is what makes america what it is. you know what is immature? people of certain political parties praising and loving this nation when they have a president in office, then whining, throwing tantrums and biting the hand that feeds them when they dont. The US is a work in progress. and compared to many other places on this earth, it is a masterpiece.

Any "law" not backed up with the capability to enforce it is no law at all.

In your opinion, the majority of the world as you know, disagrees.

Yes, since this is America and you do live in it you are entitled to your opinion. Just as I am when I say the you are a F**KING IDIOT and a coward.

You, sir (and I use the term loosely) are the type of person that would scream, fall to the ground and piss your pants at the mere sound of a car back-firing. Yet question how, where and when protection is applied.

To you and your "hero" Michael Moore, the insurgents are like the Minute Men of the US Revolution. You are too stupid to look at the tactics that are applied and what makes the difference between a revolutionary and a terrorist.

You have the pleasure of living under the flag of freedom, yet question how that freedom is applied. If you have nothing nice to say about the US Military and those who protect others and are giving them the oppurtunity to determine the type of government they want to have in power for the first time over 40 years, then just STFU, smile and walk away. Knowing that there are brave men and women willing to put their life on the line to protect your stupid f**king ass.

As for what is "above and beyond the call of duty?" That is a phrase that many civilians will never understand. Many believe that if you are in the military your primary mission is to kill. They have no idea what duty is and the concept is beyond them.

P.S. Don't bother to threaten me by saying your are a former moderator, as you have in the past. You now longer are one and are therefore irrelevent in that area.

This particular "ex-moderator" is a woman, and a beatiful one at that. What puzzles me is her apparent animus to any and all things American, even this young man who risked his life trying to save the men he leads. :(

In your opinion, the majority of the world as you know, disagrees.

Some proof of that statement? There is some poll of a statistically significant percentage of the total world's population which indicates this?

In your opinion, the majority of the world as you know, disagrees.
Thus proving once again it pays not to be in the majority of what "everyone" thinks.

You have the pleasure of living under the flag of freedom, yet question how that freedom is applied.

He, he. Steph lives under a flag of freedom, but that's not the Stars and Stripes. It may come as a shock to you and others, but freedom has no flag and not everything outside the US is a backwater slum, and the US is not the source of everything that's good in the world, just as it's not the source of everything evil.

The United States is not a signatory to the Hague Conventions. None of them.

Hahaha, The USA is a signatory member to ALL of the Hague conventions. There is one Geneva convention in the 70's I believe the USA didn't sign.. as said, brush up on your history, you're lacking any knowledge in what you're talking about.

Thus proving once again it pays not to be in the majority of what "everyone" thinks.

"If you find yourself agreeing with the majority, it is time to reform." - Mark Twain

I believe there are several on trial as we speak for their war crimes.. (torture)

But you under international law are suppose to disobey an order if you know it to be illegal, remember the Germans tried to get away with the excuse of "just following orders" didn't work for them either. Just because the US refuses to be accountable for their actions (ex. ICC) that doesn't mean they aren't guilty.

Only for abusing Iraqi prisoners (who, by international standards, are protected by the Geneva Conventions).

Not for abusing Guantanamo prisoners (who, by international standards, even according to Human Rights Watch, are not protected by the Geneva Conventions).

By your standards, we have to have a trial before we find anyone guilty.

Ahem. So this means that you are merely accusing some Americans of committing crimes. We'll have to wait for a trial before they are found guilty, if at all.

Now, as I was saying, who, may I ask, will enforce your international laws?

International laws and treaties, by convention, have the force of law only as the signatory nation passes laws and regulations to enforce the international laws or treaties.

Take the UN Convention Against Torture, for instance. The US signed it. It then passed laws - laws where the definition of torture was lifted from the treaty and placed into US Code.

No one objected to the wording. The Code was published. Everyone could see the wording matched.

It's hard, reading the wording, to see some acts as being torture. Being lap danced by a woman in a thong, for example, would be a huge stretch.

Then we have to address the fact that other nations have committed similar potential violations (the UNCAT, for example), but have never been held accountable.

It makes the whole worth of certain treaties come into question when even before the US commits a violation, that other nations are not held accountable. Precedence, you know.

The fact is no one knows what he or she would do in that situation. This man acted courageously, I for one have no idea how I would behave if I was in his shoes.

I admit that I have no idea how I would react, but I would like to think that I would be courageous and quick thinking enough to perform as he did. I am not very courageous, and outside of cracking jokes, not very quick thinking either.

If you can show the soldier in question committed a war crime, please do so.
I believe there are several on trial as we speak for their war crimes.. (torture)

Several 1st Sergeant Brad Kasals are not on trial, whatever you may belive. ;)

But you under international law are suppose to disobey an order if you know it to be illegal, remember the Germans tried to get away with the excuse of "just following orders" didn't work for them either. Just because the US refuses to be accountable for their actions (ex. ICC) that doesn't mean they aren't guilty.

If the actions carried out by SGT Kasal were illegal, you'd have a leg to stand on. Until you can do so, you have no grounds to be accusing him of war crimes.

good thing she is not. and i have said before, i dont want to debate this topic, but i will say, is the jobs you have, the university system and the fact that is open for all youth to attend, the fact we can own homes, the fact boston has the BEST football, and baseball teams, the fact that you are not shot and your family harrassed when you speak your views.... all of that you can thank the past presidents, congressmen and senate bodies for. the 57 million people that did not vote or support our president at least had the right to vote. thats another thing that this country and ALL of its people should be thankul for. look up the oath that our military takes, matt. they are sworn to UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION. which is what makes america what it is. you know what is immature? people of certain political parties praising and loving this nation when they have a president in office, then whining, throwing tantrums and biting the hand that feeds them when they dont. The US is a work in progress. and compared to many other places on this earth, it is a masterpiece.

It is immature to believe for a moment that things have ever been any different than they are now. It's naive to believe that things were any different under a Democrat president; that people of certain political parties that are NOW praising and loving this nation when they have a president in office, weren't whining, throwing tantrums, and biting the hand that feeds them when they didn't.

To say that people who disagree need to leave runs totally counter to everything that this country supposedly stands for and everything that makes it, as you say, a "masterpiece".

I admit that I have no idea how I would react, but I would like to think that I would be courageous and quick thinking enough to perform as he did. I am not very courageous, and outside of cracking jokes, not very quick thinking either.

If you live through it, which should be something that passes in seconds in close combat, your jokes will come in handy immediately afterwards.

Not for abusing Guantanamo prisoners (who, by international standards, even according to Human Rights Watch, are not protected by the Geneva Conventions).

Agreed. But those people in Guantanamo still come under the protection of the Human Rights convention, which gives them the right to freedom and a fair, expedite trial. So far they haven't got any.

Only for abusing Iraqi prisoners (who, by international standards, are protected by the Geneva Conventions).

Oh gawd, you can't possibly be this (for lack of a better word) stupid?

He, he. Steph lives under a flag of freedom, but that's not the Stars and Stripes. It may come as a shock to you and others, but freedom has no flag and not everything outside the US is a backwater slum, and the US is not the source of everything that's good in the world, just as it's not the source of everything evil.

I agree. The US just IS. Good and bad.

The soldier did his JOB. In fact, he did it very well. I'm sure he would prefer a $20K bonus rather than a medal.

Steph is a lovely woman, who doesn't take guff from people, especially those who believe everything they hear on CNN and Fox. If you'll notice, she usually takes issue with policy, not people.

Let me make something clear: most of us who are not blessed to live in the USA absolutely DO NOT hate American people...we just dislike some of the policies. Americans themselves are just like everyone else...some are cool, some are a**holes...

It is immature to believe for a moment that things have ever been any different than they are now. It's naive to believe that things were any different under a Democrat president; that people of certain political parties that are NOW praising and loving this nation when they have a president in office, weren't whining, throwing tantrums, and biting the hand that feeds them when they didn't.

To say that people who disagree need to leave runs totally counter to everything that this country supposedly stands for and everything that makes it, as you say, a "masterpiece".
Well when that group of people's biggest threat is that they are going to move to Canada, you're basically just agreeing with them.

Let me make something clear: most of us who are not blessed to live in the USA absolutely DO NOT hate American people...we just dislike some of the policies. Americans themselves are just like everyone else...some are cool, some are a**holes...

Amen!

Amen!

Seconded!

Perhaps you need to brush up on the Hague conventions of what is a declaration of war.. If you'd like me to explain it to you, just ask, I'll be more than happy to.

The US is not a signee to this treaty, therefore its articles do not apply

What Congress in the US does only effects the US, once you step outside your borders, you are under international law. Your laws mean nothing outside of your borders. FACT!

Good, does that mean we can use the laws of the country we are in. If so there are a bunch of prisoners in Iraq that we should be able to line up shoot.

Footnote - you didn't declare war, Japan did, as did the Germans on Dec.11/41 on you.

You need to brush up on your history. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th. They had meant to deliver an end to relations and cease of any and all negotions on-going about Japan's invasion of manchuria. It WAS NOT an official Declaration of War. That was done by FDR on Dec 8th in his famous "Day of Infamy" speech. Germany and Italy were expected to declare war due to the pact that they signed with Japan. The US then Declared War on those two. Thus began the freedom of Europe and the Pacific.

Your lack of gratitude in that endevor is as appalling as your lack of intelligence.

If it was up to you, Saddam would still be in power and the rape rooms would be fulled to capacity, the Taliban would still be killing women for not wearing veils. In your eyes the US is the criminal and you probably believe the US deserved to be attacked on 9/11.

(BTW, I did not know you were a women so I apologize for calling you "sir." You appear to be a good-looking women, by the remarks of others (I have not seen your picture), so all I can say in that area is "Looks can't account for everything." I still believe that you are a F**KING IDIOT and HAVE NO CLUE AS TO WHAT HONOR, DUTY, COUNTRY TRUELY MEANS>

I believe there are several on trial as we speak for their war crimes.. (torture)

But you under international law are suppose to disobey an order if you know it to be illegal, remember the Germans tried to get away with the excuse of "just following orders" didn't work for them either. Just because the US refuses to be accountable for their actions (ex. ICC) that doesn't mean they aren't guilty.

American soldiers are actively prosecuted for not disobeying an unlawful oder.

Well when that group of people's biggest threat is that they are going to move to Canada, you're basically just agreeing with them.

No, there's a small majority of sore losers who are threatening to leave to Canada. That does not equate to telling anyone who disapproves of the current administration and its decisions to leave the country.

It is immature to believe for a moment that things have ever been any different than they are now. It's naive to believe that things were any different under a Democrat president; that people of certain political parties that are NOW praising and loving this nation when they have a president in office, weren't whining, throwing tantrums, and biting the hand that feeds them when they didn't.

To say that people who disagree need to leave runs totally counter to everything that this country supposedly stands for and everything that makes it, as you say, a "masterpiece".
they were different. the country has been divided many times. over things like people owning slaves. women having no rights, among thoussands more struggles. and none were so partisan.. and dont forget the really important point here, !AHEM!the fact that the people that founded this country MOVED HERE FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT LIVE THE WAY THEY WANTED TO LIVE IN THEIR HOMELAND. people back then were a hell of a lot braver than the people of today. they did exactly what they said they were going to do.

Oh gawd, you can't possibly be this (for lack of a better word) stupid?

Can you read Convention I, Article 2, in its entirety?

Or should you go to the Human Rights Watch page, where they note that al-Qaeda detainees may not be subject to Geneva Convention protection?

If I'm stupid, then so is the crew at Human Rights Watch.

There isn't anything in Convention I, Article 2, that extends Geneva Convention protections (in all the other Conventions and Protocols) to anyone except:
a) people detained from an enemy nation that was a signatory to the Conventions, or
b) people detained from an enemy nation that agreed to and abided by the Conventions

al-Qaeda, and the Taliban, and Afghanistan, apart from not being signatories (or High Contracting Parties), did not agree to abide by, nor did they abide by the Conventions.

Kinda puts those guys in the "out of luck" category. And that isn't stupid, or perhaps you should read the Conventions in French instead of English.

Human Rights Watch appears to agree with me. They're screwed.

The United States is not a signatory to the Hague Conventions. None of them.


From your state departmen't official list of internation treaty obligations:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/38569.pdf

Scroll down to the section "Rules of WArfare" and enjoy a heaping meal of crow.

Convention with respect to the laws and customs
of war on land, with annex of regulations.
1 Signed at The Hague July 29, 1899; entered
into force September 4, 1900; for the
United States April 9, 1902.
32 Stat. 1803; TS 403; 1 Bevans 247.

Convention for the exemption of hospital
ships, in time of war, from the payment of all
dues and taxes imposed for the benefit of the
state. Done at The Hague December 21, 1904;
entered into force March 26, 1907.
35 Stat. 1854; TS 459; 1 Bevans 430.


Convention relative to the opening of hostilities.
Signed at The Hague October 18, 1907;
entered into force January 26, 1910.
36 Stat. 2259; TS 538; 1 Bevans 619.

Convention respecting the laws and customs of
war on land, with annex of regulations.1
Signed at The Hague October 18, 1907; entered
into force January 26, 1910.
36 Stat. 2277; TS 539; 1 Bevans 631.

Convention respecting the rights and duties of
neutral powers and persons in case of war on
land. Signed at The Hague October 18, 1907;
entered into force January 26, 1910.
36 Stat. 2310; TS 540; 1 Bevans 654.

Convention relative to the laying of automatic
submarine contact mines. Signed at The Hague
October 18, 1907; entered into force January
26, 1910.
36 Stat. 2332; TS 541; 1 Bevans 669.

Convention concerning bombardment by naval
forces in time of war. Signed at The Hague
October 18, 1907; entered into force January
26, 1910.
36 Stat. 2351; TS 542; 1 Bevans 681.

Convention concerning the rights and duties of
neutral powers in naval war. Signed at The
Hague October 18, 1907; entered into force
January 26, 1910; for the United States February
1, 1910.
36 Stat. 2415; TS 545; 1 Bevans 723.

Declaration prohibiting the discharge of projectiles
and explosives from balloons. Signed at
The Hague October 18, 1907; entered into
force November 27, 1909.
36 Stat. 2439; TS 546; 1 Bevans 739.

Convention relative to certain restrictions with
regard to the exercise of the right of capture
in naval war. Signed at The Hague October 18,
1907; entered into force January 26, 1910.
36 Stat. 2396; TS 544; 1 Bevans 711.

Wow, that word "Hague" just keeps popping up over and over....


Laws have no force if there isn't force to back them. There is no enforcement provision in the Hague Conventions.


that is another subject entirely

However, as long as we are talking treaties and you have that document open, feel free to scroll up to the section marked "Renunciation of war" and note the citation for CURRENT your signatory status to:

Treaty providing for the renunciation of war as
an instrument of national policy. Signed at
Paris August 27, 1928; entered into force July
24, 1929.
46 Stat. 2343; TS 796; 2 Bevans 732; 94 LNTS 57.

Hahaha, The USA is a signatory member to ALL of the Hague conventions. There is one Geneva convention in the 70's I believe the USA didn't sign.. as said, brush up on your history, you're lacking any knowledge in what you're talking about.

Thanks for spanking that one.

We've wrangled over the legality of the war before. I still say it's legal. Certain points of conduct have been absolutely illegal (Aby Graib, Guantanamo, and Bush's compliance therein), but that absolutely does not mean that a soldier performing his lawful duty is a war criminal. And to groundlessly accuse Sgt. Kasal (and by extension Sgt. Smith and Sgt. Peralta) of war crimes is disrespectful. If you can find some reason they can be accused, please post it. Otherwise, please quit it.

The soldier did his JOB. In fact, he did it very well. I'm sure he would prefer a $20K bonus rather than a medal.

"Bravery and intrepediity above and beyond the call of duty" describes actions that are far, far more than "just doing his job." I seriously doubt the good Sergeant would want anything for what he did, but don't underestimate the incredible degree of recognition for CMH winners ... I mean, when the President of the United States is expected by tradition to salute you ... !

they were different. the country has been divided many times. over things like people owning slaves. women having no rights, among thoussands more struggles. and none were so partisan.. and dont forget the really important point here, !AHEM!the fact that the people that founded this country MOVED HERE FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT LIVE THE WAY THEY WANTED TO LIVE IN THEIR HOMELAND. people back then were a hell of a lot braver than the people of today. they did exactly what they said they were going to do.

The country was divided during the Clinton administration. Do you not recall the great partisan BSery between the Republican Congress and the Democratic president?

The really important point here is that you are saying that anyone who disagrees with the current administration should sit down and shut up, or leave. THAT kind of attitude is the exactly the kind of treatment that all those brave founding fathers were fleeing their homeland to get away from.

Yeah and I get a Christmas bonus.

I would think him a hero if he was defending his country, but he's not. As you well know he's just following orders.. maybe has an ego and wanted to be the "hero", not always the smart thing. if he has a family at home, kind of a stupid thing really. I will defend MY country.. but I would never defend some one else's country, given they won't end up a democracy any way and they don't even want them there.



Shut your pie hole steph. You and your hubby can stick your anti-Americanism where the sun doesn't shine. Tell him bald head look silly on white folks, it's a black thing!

The US is not a signee to this treaty, therefore its articles do not apply


Except that you ARE a signee as I just pointed out.


You need to brush up on your history. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th. They had meant to deliver an end to relations and cease of any and all negotions on-going about Japan's invasion of manchuria. It WAS NOT an official Declaration of War. That was done by FDR on Dec 8th in his famous "Day of Infamy" speech.

Germany and Italy were expected to declare war due to the pact that they signed with Japan. The US then Declared War on those two. Thus began the freedom of Europe and the Pacific.


While Japan did NOT declare war on you, a technical state of war existed the moment the bombs fell. So I agree that my wife was incorrect on equating that to a formal declaration. However Germany DID declare war on the US, and FDR responded in kind AFTER that fact.

Your lack of gratitude in that endevor is as appalling as your lack of intelligence.



Likewise.

If it was up to you, Saddam would still be in power and the rape rooms would be fulled to capacity, the Taliban would still be killing women for not wearing veils. In your eyes the US is the criminal and you probably believe the US deserved to be attacked on 9/11.


That has never been said, and both my wife and I have always stated our support for the actions to remove the Taliban and Al Qaeda from Afghanistan. So enough unsubstantiated mudslinging please.

(BTW, I did not know you were a women so I apologize for calling you "sir." You appear to be a good-looking women, by the remarks of others (I have not seen your picture), so all I can say in that area is "Looks can't account for everything." I still believe that you are a F**KING IDIOT and HAVE NO CLUE AS TO WHAT HONOR, DUTY, COUNTRY TRUELY MEANS>

And aparently manners have no meaning for you either, nor do you have a clue what you are talking about when it comes to my wife.

Shut your pie hole steph. You and your hubby can stick your anti-Americanism where the sun doesn't shine. Tell him bald head look silly on white folks, it's a black thing!


I feel compelled to disagree.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/stmagazine/stewart.jpg

I agree. The US just IS. Good and bad.

The soldier did his JOB. In fact, he did it very well. I'm sure he would prefer a $20K bonus rather than a medal.

Steph is a lovely woman, who doesn't take guff from people, especially those who believe everything they hear on CNN and Fox. If you'll notice, she usually takes issue with policy, not people.

Let me make something clear: most of us who are not blessed to live in the USA absolutely DO NOT hate American people...we just dislike some of the policies. Americans themselves are just like everyone else...some are cool, some are a**holes...

Where have you been hidning you lovely person of good sense? :D

(I am from the US, but I live in Japan, and I have had to practically beat some people over the head saying the same things about Japan.)

That guy better get the MOH. If he doesn't, someone's seriously messed up in the head.

Hey, just my opinion, I am entiled to it right? Doesn't make me right or wrong, it's my opinion. You thinking I don't get it, or live in a sad world is YOUR opinion, no greater or lessor than my own. After all. what good is freedom if we can't express our own opinions? hmmmm


Opinions are like cowboy hats Steph, pretty soon every asshole has one!

Shut your pie hole steph. You and your hubby can stick your anti-Americanism where the sun doesn't shine. Tell him bald head look silly on white folks, it's a black thing!



This has been another intellectual addition to the discussion from Johnny, brought to you from the fine folks at Childish.com

I'm still waiting for the Hague Convention to come into effect.

I don't see any traditional ill effects, do you? Who will enforce it? No one.

Not even Canada. If what the US has done is so bad, and so illegal, why doesn't Canada at least put up an economic embargo?

Not even a motion at the UN to punish the US?

Can you show me where the war was illegal? I'll need chapter and verse in the Hague Convention.

I've already shown you where the Guantanamo prisoners don't have Geneva Convention protections (Convention I, Article 2, in its entirety).

Opinions are like cowboy hats Steph, pretty soon every asshole has one!

How many cowboy hats do you have?

Shut your pie hole steph. You and your hubby can stick your anti-Americanism where the sun doesn't shine. Tell him bald head look silly on white folks, it's a black thing!

Of course I could report you for flaming for this post.. but I won't, the humour value is to high to get you warned or deleted..lol :D

Comic relief is always good. Bless your misguided heart..lol

I'm still waiting for the Hague Convention to come into effect.

I don't see any traditional ill effects, do you? Who will enforce it? No one.

Not even Canada. If what the US has done is so bad, and so illegal, why doesn't Canada at least put up an economic embargo?

Not even a motion at the UN to punish the US?

Can you show me where the war was illegal? I'll need chapter and verse in the Hague Convention.

I've already shown you where the Guantanamo prisoners don't have Geneva Convention protections (Convention I, Article 2, in its entirety).


Really? Why are you so interested in them since - according to you - you aren't signatory?

:p

One soldier has already been awarded the CMH as a result of his actions during combat in Iraq: http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/02/Tampabay/Iraq_hero_joins_hallo.shtml

I already made a thread about him!

This has been another intellectual addition to the discussion from Johnny, brought to you from the fine folks at Childish.com

(You guys don't have this jerk on ignore? Why?)

he's in iraq for the wrong reasons but he's a safe guy

The United States is not a signatory to the Hague Conventions. None of them.

Laws have no force if there isn't force to back them. There is no enforcement provision in the Hague Conventions.

I don't see a global embargo on US goods. No freezing of US assets overseas. I don't see invasion fleets off the coast. I don't see foreign bombers in the air over the US.

Come again?

She just likes to feel important, much like Zepp, but the truth is they live in an impotent nation and just are cowardly in general.

Opinions are like cowboy hats Steph, pretty soon every asshole has one!
Assholes don't wear hats, you silly. Maybe if you write "opinions are like cowhide saddles, pretty soon everyone asshole sits on one... and then feel like cowboys, until it starts itching... or need to rope a bull... or something."

What? Too longwinded? It has assholes, cowboys and a horse for good measure.

Of course I could report you for flaming for this post.. but I won't, the humour value is to high to get you warned or deleted..lol :D

Comic relief is always good. Bless your misguided heart..lol

Aha! That explains the above. :D

One soldier has already been awarded the CMH as a result of his actions during combat in Iraq: http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/02/Tampabay/Iraq_hero_joins_hallo.shtml

Seems like i read teh SOmalia thing from an old source :eek:

I believe there are several on trial as we speak for their war crimes.. (torture)

But you under international law are suppose to disobey an order if you know it to be illegal, remember the Germans tried to get away with the excuse of "just following orders" didn't work for them either. Just because the US refuses to be accountable for their actions (ex. ICC) that doesn't mean they aren't guilty.

Being an MP in a prison and being in combat are two different things.

Actually "just following orders" did work for a number of lower ranked troops. Duh!

I'm still waiting for the Hague Convention to come into effect.

I don't see any traditional ill effects, do you? Who will enforce it? No one.

Not even Canada. If what the US has done is so bad, and so illegal, why doesn't Canada at least put up an economic embargo?

Not even a motion at the UN to punish the US?

Can you show me where the war was illegal? I'll need chapter and verse in the Hague Convention.

I've already shown you where the Guantanamo prisoners don't have Geneva Convention protections (Convention I, Article 2, in its entirety).

From what I understand by my far more brilliant husband, this is your usual response when proven wrong or backed into a corner. Well done! :D

Aha! That explains the above. :D

No, it doesn't.

We just choose not to bother in the case of some people. It's just not worth it.....

This particular "ex-moderator" is a woman, and a beatiful one at that. What puzzles me is her apparent animus to any and all things American, even this young man who risked his life trying to save the men he leads. :(

Eutrusca, beauty my friend is in the eye of the beholder. I guess you ned a new pair of glasses. I wouldn't touch her even after 12 beers. Ich!!

Eutrusca, beauty my friend is in the eye of the beholder. I guess you ned a new pair of glasses. I wouldn't touch her even after 12 beers. Ich!!

You couldn't touch her after any amount of beers, stumpy.

I feel compelled to disagree.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/stmagazine/stewart.jpg


You shouldn't. It's a black thing, holmes!

Usually just white guys who are going bald already, and think they'll look cool. They don't.

Seems like i read teh SOmalia thing from an old source :eek:

I don't think any of the sources from which I've been quoting here have yet included the one recently awarded in Iraq.

This has been another intellectual addition to the discussion from Johnny, brought to you from the fine folks at Childish.com


Come on Mr. Clean, I was only picking on your wife. OMG a Canadian actually stands up for someone else?

Of course I could report you for flaming for this post.. but I won't, the humour value is to high to get you warned or deleted..lol :D

Comic relief is always good. Bless your misguided heart..lol


Aww, you're going to report me. I know that'll make ya feel all important. My statements were true.

How many cowboy hats do you have?

As many as you do you Faulknerian Idiot Man-Child!

I don't think any of the sources from which I've been quoting here have yet included the one recently awarded in Iraq.

Yep. I didn't see it on army.mil or cmohs.org.

From what I understand by my far more brilliant husband, this is your usual response when proven wrong or backed into a corner. Well done! :D


Whispering Legs, you just can't be smarter then her hubby. Why he has walls of educational awards and she is just as smart. She almost has the intellectual equivelant of the Library of Congress crammed into her 8 pound water head!

Aww, you're going to report me. I know that'll make ya feel all important. My statements were true.

Reading comprehension problem? I said I wasn't go to report you.

As for Zep, imagine standing up for your own wife, unthinkable..lol

Keep the humour coming stumpy.. we are laughing our asses off..

You couldn't touch her after any amount of beers, stumpy.


Exactly, but the point is she wouldn't look better even after 12 brews!

Hey, just my opinion, I am entiled to it right? Doesn't make me right or wrong, it's my opinion. You thinking I don't get it, or live in a sad world is YOUR opinion, no greater or lessor than my own. After all. what good is freedom if we can't express our own opinions? hmmmm

I have no wish to be disrespectful to anyone... as Steph said, I am entitled to have an opinion. I also don't wish to enter in to the discussion on merit for CMOH recepients. However, I believe that Steph is incorrect in the assertion that all opinions are equal. If you have already rejected the notion that there are any absolutes and/or authorities then your statment seems logical. This can be refuted, however, by looking at our American justice system. The opinion of some (we call them experts) is of greater weight. Also, your opinion can make you wrong. My opinion can be that I can break the law with no consequences, but this opinion would be wrong.

Reading comprehension problem? I said I wasn't go to report you.

As for Zep, imagine standing up for your own wife, unthinkable..lol

Keep the humour coming stumpy.. we are laughing our asses off..


Keep your photos coming Steph, I took a pill for ED and have had a 4 hour erection. I need a photo of you to give me back my ED.

BTW I am on my pills and have only one eye, what is your excuse for looking so bad!

Warning: Graphic Photos

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/1.stm

Warning: Graphic Photos

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/1.stm


They should have stopped! It's the parents fault.

good post, good luck to all troops out there, the fact is they are there now and thats what counts. Ignore the hippies, one day if we are lucky they we be shipped off to madagascar.

Warning: Graphic Photos

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/1.stm

Ahem. Major violations of the 4th Hague Conventions by Iraqis.

Articles 1 and 2 prohibit guerrilla warfare, stating that belligerants must be "commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates... have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance... carry arms openly... and conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war".

Article 43 requires collaboration with occupation governments. "The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country".

If you are a member of an insurgency, or if you fail to follow the orders of US troops and are merely a civilian driving your car through a road block, YOU, not the US soldiers, are in violation of international law under the 4th Hague Convention.

Hmmm....

Ahem. Major violations of the 4th Hague Conventions by Iraqis.

Articles 1 and 2 prohibit guerrilla warfare, stating that belligerants must be "commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates... have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance... carry arms openly... and conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war".

Article 43 requires collaboration with occupation governments. "The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country".

If you are a member of an insurgency, or if you fail to follow the orders of US troops and are merely a civilian driving your car through a road block, YOU, not the US soldiers, are in violation of international law under the 4th Hague Convention.

Hmmm....


Agreed. The insurgents have violated the Laws of War.

However, there is no judicial notion of "but he did it too!"

Which is to say that violations on one side do not excuse them on the other.

You are a total idiot.

Knock it off -- attack the argument, not the poster!

UUUUUUU_RAHHHHHH! :sniper:

Ahem. Major violations of the 4th Hague Conventions by Iraqis.

Articles 1 and 2 prohibit guerrilla warfare, stating that belligerants must be "commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates... have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance... carry arms openly... and conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war".

Article 43 requires collaboration with occupation governments. "The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country".

If you are a member of an insurgency, or if you fail to follow the orders of US troops and are merely a civilian driving your car through a road block, YOU, not the US soldiers, are in violation of international law under the 4th Hague Convention.

Hmmm....


Those were innocent, un-armed civilians, they did not belonged to any guerrila. Article 1 and 2 are voided here.

That shooting happened before January 30, prior to the election date. Before that, no "legitimate" Iraqui goverment was in order, therefore you cannot bring article 43 up. Plus, I would like to see the piece of Iraqui legislation that allows roadblocks by trigger happy soldiers.. BTW, glad you brought article 43.. see the last part? You must uphold the Law of Iraq. That means the BAATHIST LAW! That means that the constitution that Paul bremer wrote for Iraq is voided, null (he had no legitimacy). And above all, those soldiers didnt "take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety". They just peppered the car with gun fire.

The Queen of General is suddenly facing civil war. No longer worshipped universally as the Goddess of Debate, she instead stooped to attack a patriotic post made by a military veteran from an unpopular conflict. In the end she has successfully shifted the focus of the topic away from the soldier awarded the Medal of Honor onto her own political views of the conflict that inspired it. Because as we all know, every German who fought against the Allied Forces in World War II was a war criminal just as much as the ones who ran the concentration camps.

If that wasn't a silly thing to do, I don't know what is.

Please allow me to bow in recognition of Steph and her loyal puppets. You continually reinforce my opinion of you with every post.

Those were innocent, un-armed civilians, they did not belonged to any guerrila. Article 1 and 2 are voided here.

That shooting happened before January 30, prior to the election date. Before that, no "legitimate" Iraqui goverment was in order, therefore you cannot bring article 43 up. Plus, I would like to see the piece of Iraqui legislation that allows roadblocks by trigger happy soldiers.. BTW, glad you brought article 43.. see the last part? You must uphold the Law of Iraq. That means the BAATHIST LAW! That means that the constitution that Paul bremer wrote for Iraq is voided, null (he had no legitimacy). And above all, those soldiers didnt "take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety". They just peppered the car with gun fire.

It also means you have to obey the soldiers who are occupying the country, as they are taking every means to restore law and order. Their law, their order. After all, careening around the streets running road blocks is obviously disorderly. And, at the very least, you have to stop so they can arrest you properly and take you to a trial where your guilt can be determined. :rolleyes:

If a soldier says, "stop! you have to stop at this road block!" and you do not stop, then you are disobeying. You are violating international law.

Additionally, if you DO happen to be an insurgent, then you are definitely violating international law.

Better put on an official uniform, have an official chain of command, and wear a unique emblem that identifies all of your members at a glance as to who they are - you'll notice that this would make it impossible for an insurgency to hide amongst civilians.

Footnote - you didn't declare war, Japan did, as did the Germans on Dec.11/41 on you.


So, the speech that President Roosevelt gave to Congress asking permission to declare war on Japan was not a declaration of war? How about when Congress voted and approved a declaration of war? Just asking.

Please allow me to bow in recognition of Steph and her loyal puppets. You continually reinforce my opinion of you with every post.

While on NS Trenzor, I do expect more then flaming from you. I'm not a mod any more, but I think its within my rights to say "Knock it off" you're being childish. :rolleyes:

So, the speech that President Roosevelt gave to Congress asking permission to declare war on Japan was not a declaration of war? How about when Congress voted and approved a declaration of war? Just asking.

Yeah sorry, I was mistaken by that one, I thought for a moment that the act of war on the US by Japan was a declaration, it was in fact Germany on Dec, 11/41 that declared war on the United States.. sorry about that. :)

It also means you have to obey the soldiers who are occupying the country, as they are taking every means to restore law and order. Their law, their order. After all, careening around the streets running road blocks is obviously disorderly. And, at the very least, you have to stop so they can arrest you properly and take you to a trial where your guilt can be determined. :rolleyes:

If a soldier says, "stop! you have to stop at this road block!" and you do not stop, then you are disobeying. You are violating international law.

Additionally, if you DO happen to be an insurgent, then you are definitely violating international law.

Better put on an official uniform, have an official chain of command, and wear a unique emblem that identifies all of your members at a glance as to who they are - you'll notice that this would make it impossible for an insurgency to hide amongst civilians.

Those soldiers are not legitimate occupiers of Iraq, they don't have the right to uphold the law of Iraq, the legitimate power never passed to the hands of the US, after all, you never wanted to run iraq, did you? :p Those soldiers (well, the politicians that command them) were the ones violating international law
And besides, even if Iraq had given you authority and legitimacy, your soldiers still had to, to their best, to do everything "as far as possible" to ensure public order and safety.. shooting a car like that, without looking, is hardly described as going "as far as possible"

While on NS Trenzor, I do expect more then flaming from you. I'm not a mod any more, but I think its within my rights to say "Knock it off" you're being childish. :rolleyes:You're right. I expect more from me than flaming, too. That's why I got an official opinion from the Mods. Nope, not flaming. It's possibly flamebaiting but not quite. So overall, I'm pleased.

Still, accusations of my being "childish" don't really respond to what I consider to be a valid point. How is it that this Medal of Honor winner is a war criminal when the German forces in World War II were not? What is your justification for bashing on soldiers doing their jobs, let alone displaying rare initiative and bravery such as this individual? Why can they not be separated from the administration that sent them in to accomplish the job assigned to them?

Those soldiers are not legitimate occupiers of Iraq, they don't have the right to uphold the law of Iraq, the legitimate power never passed to the hands of the US, after all, you never wanted to run iraq, did you? :p Those soldiers (well, the politicians that command them) were the ones violating international law
And besides, even if Iraq had given you authority and legitimacy, your soldiers still had to, to their best, to do everything "as far as possible" to ensure public order and safety.. shooting a car like that, without looking, is hardly described as going "as far as possible"

We are the conquering party. Thus, under Art 43, we have to enforce the law.

I'm sure that speeding through a roadblock was illegal under Saddam's government.

I suppose that we should wait until we know you're a suicide car bomber - that is, we wait until you're right next to us setting it off.

BTW, you have to get your insurgents to stop violating international law - they are dressed no differently than civilians. Make them wear that distinctive emblem or put on a uniform. Otherwise, we have to assume that you are all insurgents, and have to shoot all of you.

International law, you know. The law seems to be designed to make it easier to kill the insurgents, and easier to prevent accidentally shooting a civilian.

You know, like putting a Red Cross on a vehicle so we don't shoot the medical people and the wounded. But, use a marked ambulance as a suicide bomb vehicle (like they do in Israel), and we Don't Have To Respect The Emblem Anymore.

Better think of an emblem...

... legitimate power never passed to the hands of the US ...

Define "legitimate power," and do not presume to tell us that Saddam had anything even remotely approaching legitimate power!

Yeah sorry, I was mistaken by that one, I thought for a moment that the act of war on the US by Japan was a declaration, it was in fact Germany on Dec, 11/41 that declared war on the United States.. sorry about that. :)


Ok. My history is a little hazy. Who declared war first? If we did it second does that make it any different than the country that did it first?

As far as 1SGT Kearse (? forgot the name. Sorry) I hope he does get the CMOH. What he did was WAY ABOVE AND BEYOND THE CALL OF DUTY. How you feel about the war is irrelevant to the act. You may belive that the war is illegal. You may think that war crimes have been committed. It is irrelivant to the situation that the 1SGT was in. He was wounded multiple times but continued to do his job, saving the lives of his men. Any normal person would have gone into shock and completely shut down. The 1SGT is a hero as is anyone who puts themselves in harms way to protect the lives of others. /stand at attention and salute smilie/


Looked up the name. 1SGT Kasal

My apologies to 1SGT Kasal for getting his name wrong. Also, 1SGT is not a SGT. Marines ALWAYS USE THE CORRECT NAME FOR THEIR RANK. A Lance Corporal is a Lance Corporal, not a Corporal. Abbreviating like that is an Army thing. However, even in the Army a First Sergent is called a First Sergent (or Top, Number 1, etc.).

There are no rules :eek: I know, you're shocked. We're human, get used to violations of rules of war.

Still shocked? I know, it's harsh to think that people don't follow rules when life or death are the 2 choices for people in the field. Everyone has a breaking point, not everyone is an angel with a machine gun.

99% of the troops follow the rules even though you'd hardly ever get the same from our enemy. That's an OUTSTANDING number. Private Lynch was captured, raped several times along with just about every bone being broken... We put hoods on men and made them crawl on each other, and let women lead them around. Ask the Private which she would've preferred. Getting dirty men up inside her, or nude hooded pictures? Both aren't fun, but which is worse if you had to have it happen to you?

Between Iraq and the U.S., the U.S military isn't the bad guy.

We do a great job as a country, but we have bad apples, DUH! The difference is we weed them out as best as we can, without giving them their own rape room.

Also, innocents are killed in war. Just look at the car bombs killing non-combatant Iraqis more then troops or Iraqi cops. Those aren't U.S. car bombs, correct? They're militant attacks. You have every incident of a U.S. serviceman/woman on the news... "SOLDIER TAKES PICS OF NAKED IRAQI! DETAILS OF TRIAL TO COME! WORLD DEMANDS SWIFT JUSTICE!" But when you see "Another Car Bomb kills dozens", you get mixed views in the media about failed policy of transition in Iraq, instead of world outcry for ALL violence to stop. C'mon Kofi Annan? Where's the UN? When will the UN offer peace keepers to guard the innocent dozens killed every week by what can now be termed rebel attacks? We try to avoid killing innocents, they target innocents.

SO, to hell with world opinions on this one. Only the world leaders that joined us should get a say, because the "majority" of arm chair quarterbacks got it wrong in the first place and HAVE to be a critic now because they CANNOT admit they're wrong, they'd lose face. Elections happened with damn near 80% turnout, blowing U.S. numbers out of the water. They appreciate it more then most of the U.S. does. They're free now and braved attacks to vote. Half this country didn't even take 30 minutes off work.

However, everyone knows all of these things. They are the facts of the case. To waste more time talking about this is just that, a waste. If someone wants to argue points beyond this, if it contradicts these statements, they themselves no doubt know it's crap and just a debate tactic to say something of merit, however it's a straw dog. A tactic of a lot of strong words, but nothing being said.

Oh, and the SPIRIT of the conventions, as far as following the rule of law in a country in time of war, implies it's ok to lay down a new set of laws when a new elected body is coming into power. The leader was overthrown, the old government are a bunch of criminals that committed and supported murder, so they're out in favor of new government. It was ok to stone women in the street, do you suggest we allow THAT law to continue to be enforced, too? If not, then I guess it's ok to change ANY law, not just that one. It's all or nothing folks. Let the Iraqi people decide!!!

Wait, remember, they get to do that now, they CAN change the laws, they're FREE.

~1Lt. Michael Allen, USAF Aux. CAP Sqd. 23

Ok. My history is a little hazy. Who declared war first? If we did it second does that make it any different than the country that did it first?.

Japan handed the American Ambassador a formal declaration of war ... after the attack on Pearl Harbor had already begun ( apparently due to clerical error ... they wanted it delivered just prior to the attack ), and Germany followed suit a few days later. The US responded with declarations of war against Japan ( Dec. 8, 1941 ), after the Pearl Harbor attack, and Germany ( Dec 11, 1941 ), after their own declaration of war against the US.

Not to be a Type-A about it, folx, it is NOT the Congressional Medal of Honor. There is NO SUCH AWARD in the United States. It is the Medal of Honor, period.

And if any soldier deserves a medal for valor in action, this soldier does. I don't believe the MH should be granted under these circumstances, however. The Medal of Honor is reserved for incredible acts of heroism. While his actions were certainly brave and heroic, they do not rise to the level of valor attendant to the Medal of Honor.

I say this with full appreciation and understanding of this soldiers bravery.

_____________________
CPT, IN, USAR

That's really impressive!
Even if this man fought in a war that it's wrong (all wars and all violences are wrong), we all should appreciate it's bravery.
There should be more men like him.

Not to be a Type-A about it, folx, it is NOT the Congressional Medal of Honor. There is NO SUCH AWARD in the United States. It is the Medal of Honor, period.

And if any soldier deserves a medal for valor in action, this soldier does. I don't believe the MH should be granted under these circumstances, however. The Medal of Honor is reserved for incredible acts of heroism. While his actions were certainly brave and heroic, they do not rise to the level of valor attended to the Medal of Honor.

I say this with full appreciation and understanding of this soldiers bravery.

_____________________
CPT, IN, USAR

You are correct. The official designation of the medal is "Medal of Honor." It use to be called "The Congressional Medal of Honor," but the word "congressional" was dropped from the designation, although many still use the term.

CPT, INF, USA ( Retired/Disabled )
Vietnam, 1967-1969

Those soldiers are not legitimate occupiers of Iraq, they don't have the right to uphold the law of Iraq, the legitimate power never passed to the hands of the US, after all, you never wanted to run iraq, did you? :p Those soldiers (well, the politicians that command them) were the ones violating international law
And besides, even if Iraq had given you authority and legitimacy, your soldiers still had to, to their best, to do everything "as far as possible" to ensure public order and safety.. shooting a car like that, without looking, is hardly described as going "as far as possible"
Perhaps you have the ability to look at a car and instantly know that there are no explosives on board, but I'm sure the soldiers do not. They never know when or where a bomb will detonate.

Perhaps you have the ability to look at a car and instantly know that there are no explosives on board, but I'm sure the soldiers do not. They never know when or where a bomb will detonate.

Portu Cale is a genius with X-ray vision.

I can't stand the war politically or morally. It's dispicable, but I will say that he's a hell of a man for looking out for his comrades in arms. All that mom and apple pie and protecting democracy bullshit aside, he's thinking of what any solider thinks on the field. Help as many of the people that are closer to you than even some blood get the hell home. I just hate that the propaganda machine will turn his story into some garbage about service to his country.

How is it that this Medal of Honor winner is a war criminal when the German forces in World War II were not? What is your justification for bashing on soldiers doing their jobs, let alone displaying rare initiative and bravery such as this individual? Why can they not be separated from the administration that sent them in to accomplish the job assigned to them?
From what I've seen, it's because she doesn't have anything in particular against Nazism. Be a member of the Evil Imperialistic United States Armed Forces, though...

Damn straight this man should get a medal, and damn straight he's doing it for his country just like he did it for the guys he saved.

Well, he did sign up right? That's what war is, doesn't make him a hero, just means he was doing his job. We all decide what careers we pick in life, this was his. Does that make him a hero? No, it makes him a man no better or worse than any one else doing his job, that he freely signed up for. - End of story.

No Steph that's not how it works. You sign up knowing that you could get hurt and or die. You are not expected to die.

Picking a career? Well in many jobs you are right. I don't consider CEO's heros. I don't consider Political Scientists heros. ;) Now a fireman? Yes I do. It takes a special person to run into a burning building to help somebody. Teachers, nurses, and even soldiers are a special kind of people. Doing jobs that people take for granted and usually don't have great rewards.

If the fellow had been a soldier and never really did anything, then you are right. Even being involved in combat doesn't really make you a hero either. Now the guy running through bullet fire to get a fallen comrade? The guy who says I will stay behind and hold of these guys off as long as I can so you can get to safety? Sounds like the makings of one to me.

Can you say you would give you life for somebody you only know through your work? It's easy to say yes, but it different when faced with the possiblity.

As was mentioned; people who make "well they signed up" comments usually have not served or know anybody who was in combat. They are not exactly well positioned to judge actions of a soldier in combat.

Yes you can have your opinion but I am afraid it's based on ignorance. You have no real way to judge the man or the situation until you have been in combat. We all think we know. We all think we know what we would do. But when the realization that we may die arrives, people handle things different then they would ever thought. Heros and cowards are a part of the equation.

Most of the time, it's just a person doing his job.

Yes, putting oneself in danger to protect others is no big thing... after all firefighters, EMTs and police are just doing their jobs as well when they get killed on the job too. :rolleyes:
So you suggest then that police, EMTs and firefighters are ineligible to be hero's because they choose a career where that is expected?

Gee, even in it's simplicity that is still stupid.

I suppose a model can't be called beautiful since that is what she's supposed to be. That's what she signed up for. A football player can't be athletic because that is what they signed up for. And a lawyer can't be a prick because it is just part of the job...

There are no rules :eek: I know, you're shocked. We're human, get used to violations of rules of war.

Still shocked? I know, it's harsh to think that people don't follow rules when life or death are the 2 choices for people in the field. Everyone has a breaking point, not everyone is an angel with a machine gun.

99% of the troops follow the rules even though you'd hardly ever get the same from our enemy. That's an OUTSTANDING number. Private Lynch was captured, raped several times along with just about every bone being broken... We put hoods on men and made them crawl on each other, and let women lead them around. Ask the Private which she would've preferred. Getting dirty men up inside her, or nude hooded pictures? Both aren't fun, but which is worse if you had to have it happen to you?


Well, time magazine asked her and according to Ms Lynch, she has no recollection of being raped. She broke ten bones in her body a sa result of the humvee crash - although doctors suspect that a couple of the breaks may have happened afterwards when captured, and the Iraqi hospital staff treated her excellently according to all reports - including hers.


Between Iraq and the U.S., the U.S military isn't the bad guy.


Neither is Iraq, although some of it's citizens may indeed qualify.


We do a great job as a country, but we have bad apples, DUH! The difference is we weed them out as best as we can, without giving them their own rape room.


Excluding Abu Ghraib...

Also, innocents are killed in war. Just look at the car bombs killing non-combatant Iraqis more then troops or Iraqi cops. Those aren't U.S. car bombs, correct? They're militant attacks. You have every incident of a U.S. serviceman/woman on the news... "SOLDIER TAKES PICS OF NAKED IRAQI! DETAILS OF TRIAL TO COME! WORLD DEMANDS SWIFT JUSTICE!" But when you see "Another Car Bomb kills dozens", you get mixed views in the media about failed policy of transition in Iraq, instead of world outcry for ALL violence to stop. C'mon Kofi Annan? Where's the UN? When will the UN offer peace keepers to guard the innocent dozens killed every week by what can now be termed rebel attacks? We try to avoid killing innocents, they target innocents.


So, it's up to the UN to clean up your mess? To send in cannon-fodder to prop up an army of occupation from a war that it tried to prevent?

I think not.

SO, to hell with world opinions on this one. Only the world leaders that joined us should get a say, because the "majority" of arm chair quarterbacks got it wrong in the first place and HAVE to be a critic now because they CANNOT admit they're wrong, they'd lose face. Elections happened with damn near 80% turnout, blowing U.S. numbers out of the water. They appreciate it more then most of the U.S. does. They're free now and braved attacks to vote. Half this country didn't even take 30 minutes off work.


Actually, the turnout was probably closer to 60%. The press backed off of the initial claims of 72% very quickly. As to the idea that people must concede that they were wrong when they said prior to the war that they had not seem proof of a direct threat from WMD, I think that few of them feel foolish about having had that opinion. Because they were NOT wrong now were they?

However, everyone knows all of these things. They are the facts of the case. To waste more time talking about this is just that, a waste. If someone wants to argue points beyond this, if it contradicts these statements, they themselves no doubt know it's crap and just a debate tactic to say something of merit, however it's a straw dog. A tactic of a lot of strong words, but nothing being said.


Well, so far what you "know" is pretty suspect. So which is the crap? What you say? Or what others do? The tactic of strong words? Like Powel's speach to the UN? Remember "We know he has WMD and we know where they are"?

Oh, and the SPIRIT of the conventions, as far as following the rule of law in a country in time of war, implies it's ok to lay down a new set of laws when a new elected body is coming into power. The leader was overthrown, the old government are a bunch of criminals that committed and supported murder, so they're out in favor of new government. It was ok to stone women in the street, do you suggest we allow THAT law to continue to be enforced, too? If not, then I guess it's ok to change ANY law, not just that one. It's all or nothing folks. Let the Iraqi people decide!!!


I think you have mistaken Iraq for Afghanistan. Stoning women in the streets was not one of the things commonly found in IRaq. And the Conventions are acutally very specific - you have no right to lay down new laws unless absolutely neccessary. That dosen't leave a lot of room for interpretation of the "spirit" of them.

Wait, remember, they get to do that now, they CAN change the laws, they're FREE.


No they aren't yet. They are in a transitional mode where they still operate under thelaw imposed by Bremmer and Co during the period the CPA ran the country. The hope is that they ARE free soon, and that it comes in a form that proves worth it. However some of us are still not convinced that this freedom could not have been secured for far less cost than the method chosen.

Yeah and I get a Christmas bonus.

I would think him a hero if he was defending his country, but he's not. As you well know he's just following orders.. maybe has an ego and wanted to be the "hero", not always the smart thing. if he has a family at home, kind of a stupid thing really. I will defend MY country.. but I would never defend some one else's country, given they won't end up a democracy any way and they don't even want them there.

This wasn't a war of necessity, it was a war of choice, no hero's in this war. No hero's since Korea, or maybe WWII.

No war since WWII has been of need, but rather of choice.


You are a total idiot.

Keep it above the belt - even people who shamelessly and selfishly put their own political agenda above acknowledging an obvious act of braveness and the grievous injury that resulted deserve better. You know who you'd rather covering your six.

God bless Seargeant Kasal :(

stephistan- i read your prior posts. maybe i missed the part where you mentioned your military service....if i did miss that tidbit, it was only due to my rage at condescending anti americans such as yourself. i am not here to debate, just leave. move out of this great country. we dont need people like you analyzing things they have no experience with. people still bash this country, bash the military, bash the president, yet continue to reside here. i just dont get it, and i never will. i just hope the USA becomes a more hostile place for rejects like you.
Umm, does that mean you have to be or have been gay to be critical of gays?

..........It was an illegal war under every treaty the USA has ever been a signatory member of..............



I sincerely hope that you have not yet attended secondary school, Ma'am. To hold such misinformed opions otherwise envinces the complete failure of the Canadian "education" system.

Well, she's not an American. And second, kicking people out of the country simply because they disagree with the current administration is childish and immature. Or would you like to kick all 57 million people who disapproved of the current president?
Hey, you might be on to something there...

He is to his friends. Same as this soldier, to many, like Steph, he's an invader and should not be there in the first place. Personally, I'd like to know more about the person who attacked them, why he felt the need to do so, what were his motiviations, etc. He certainly could just have stayed home and supported the invasion, perhaps get a job in the security forces, but he obviously chose to fight against a much superior enemy and paid with his life.

The sad thing is we will never know.

That's just me, though. Most people will be happy with black and white.

Most likely he was not an Iraqi but a foreigner who grew up in poverty, was brainwashed by his church, and offered more money than he ever imagined to fight.

Of course, you'd probably consider the Americans who invaded Germany immoral also. :rolleyes:

Hey, you might be on to something there...

Nah. Too costly. We can just elect Hillary and the conservatives will all leave on their own.

Yeah and I get a Christmas bonus.

I would think him a hero if he was defending his country, but he's not. As you well know he's just following orders.. maybe has an ego and wanted to be the "hero", not always the smart thing. if he has a family at home, kind of a stupid thing really. I will defend MY country.. but I would never defend some one else's country, given they won't end up a democracy any way and they don't even want them there.

This wasn't a war of necessity, it was a war of choice, no hero's in this war. No hero's since Korea, or maybe WWII.

No war since WWII has been of need, but rather of choice.
Um, better than 50% of WW2 was fought defending someone else's country, and all but one day of it was fought on foreign soil.

The last time it was awarded, other than to the one soldier who was killed while engaging a vastly superior force virtually single-handedly in Iraq, was in Somalia ... to two Delta Force snipers who were killed while protecting wounded.

See http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm for more info on the CMH.

The only time in my life I have seen a roomfull of general officers stand at attention for someone of lower rank was when a CMH winner walked into the room. The CMH is the highest honor the US can bestow.
Thanks for this thread Eutrusca...I have been longinig for one like this...This man is a genuine hero and will never say so himself ths making himself more heroic in that action...I was with the 82nd Airborne(America's Guard of Honor)during Task Force Ranger and knew several of the men killed during the fire fight in Mog...The two Delta snipers you mentioned were true to their calling and showed it...It was a very sad day for us at Ft. Bragg when we got the news of what had happened in Somalia...Thanks for remembering our brothers in arms...And my friends....God Bless...

Most likely he was not an Iraqi but a foreigner who grew up in poverty, was brainwashed by his church, and offered more money than he ever imagined to fight.


Ok that was a reasonable retort but you wasted your comment with


Of course, you'd probably consider the Americans who invaded Germany immoral also. :rolleyes:

I disagree...the fact that he jumped on top of another person to save them from a blast, thus risking his life-does make him worthy of recognition. If bullets were flying at you, and someone jumped on top of you to cover you....and they got socked full of bullets, and you knew that those bullets could have very well gone through your head....I think you might label whoever it is that jumped on top of you to protect you a 'hero".

People who are against the war tend to get caught up in their "hate America" crusade, and they ignore the fact that there are real men and women out there risking their LIVES for others and for something they believe in. I dont have to support the war or the governments decision to be over there, but I certainly respect the men and women who risk taking a bullet for someone else. Its not just a job like everyone else. I work at a computer and use a stapler. My biggest hazard is a possible paper-cut. You said : "We all decide what careers we pick in life, this was his. Does that make him a hero? No, it makes him a man no better or worse than any one else doing his job, that he freely signed up for." The fact he joined the military is NOT what made this man a hero in other people's eyes. The fact that he tried to shield others from harm and received serious injury in the process is why they are saying this.

Said with all due respect to you Steph...we just disagree here.
Amen and Bravo well said friend...We do not have to love war to respect what he did....Thanks...

Yeah and I get a Christmas bonus.

I would think him a hero if he was defending his country, but he's not. As you well know he's just following orders.. maybe has an ego and wanted to be the "hero", not always the smart thing. if he has a family at home, kind of a stupid thing really. I will defend MY country.. but I would never defend some one else's country, given they won't end up a democracy any way and they don't even want them there.

This wasn't a war of necessity, it was a war of choice, no hero's in this war. No hero's since Korea, or maybe WWII.

No war since WWII has been of need, but rather of choice.
You friend are way out of line and have no sense of comaraderie...Or brother hood...Guys like this do not and will not do what the ydo just to grab the glory...Hate the war and the Pres. if you want but lighten up this man is deserving of the honour...

Interesting thread here....

To be blunt, I'm as anti-war as they come. I believe the war to be wrong in every sense of the word. But at the same time, I support the men and women who are waging it. Once upon a time, I lived on a military base, and got to know some of the troops there. The vast majority are average human beings--some no older than 18 or 19. I've heard from those I know who have been over there that many dissagree with the war and the causes, but they fight anyway. For all I know, the man who is recieving the award might have dissagreed with it. But he still offered his life to save a comrade's. Thus, he is a hero in my eyes. There is nothing more precious to the average human than their life, and to give it up like that is an amazing act. He certainly deserves a medal.

Thanks for this thread Eutrusca...I have been longinig for one like this...This man is a genuine hero and will never say so himself ths making himself more heroic in that action...I was with the 82nd Airborne(America's Guard of Honor)during Task Force Ranger and knew several of the men killed during the fire fight in Mog...The two Delta snipers you mentioned were true to their calling and showed it...It was a very sad day for us at Ft. Bragg when we got the news of what had happened in Somalia...Thanks for remembering our brothers in arms...And my friends....God Bless...

You're most welcome, Peardon. I was stationed at Bragg twice, taught at the JFK SW Center. :)

A question re military etiquette: Do officers salute CMOH recipoients regardless of rank? I recall hearing that somewhere....

And Steph - respectfully please STFU! You are being disrespectful.
Yes the ydo salute CMH recipeints...And rightfully so...

No I'm not, It was an illegal war under every treaty the USA has ever been a signatory member of. Pot, Kettle, Black.

I have no respect for people who commit international illegal crimes, excuse me!
So you do not respect the terrorists in Iraq or any where else or the Envirommental wackos who burn down homes in new devlopemnts or spike trees in the forests of the Pacific North West..Or is your disrespect reserved for the ppl you disagree with....(By the By tree spiking has killed many many loggers....)

What these people go through for a chimp in a cowboy costume...

Yes, since this is America and you do live in it you are entitled to your opinion. Just as I am when I say the you are a F**KING IDIOT and a coward.

You, sir (and I use the term loosely) are the type of person that would scream, fall to the ground and piss your pants at the mere sound of a car back-firing. Yet question how, where and when protection is applied.

To you and your "hero" Michael Moore, the insurgents are like the Minute Men of the US Revolution. You are too stupid to look at the tactics that are applied and what makes the difference between a revolutionary and a terrorist.

You have the pleasure of living under the flag of freedom, yet question how that freedom is applied. If you have nothing nice to say about the US Military and those who protect others and are giving them the oppurtunity to determine the type of government they want to have in power for the first time over 40 years, then just STFU, smile and walk away. Knowing that there are brave men and women willing to put their life on the line to protect your stupid f**king ass.

As for what is "above and beyond the call of duty?" That is a phrase that many civilians will never understand. Many believe that if you are in the military your primary mission is to kill. They have no idea what duty is and the concept is beyond them.

P.S. Don't bother to threaten me by saying your are a former moderator, as you have in the past. You now longer are one and are therefore irrelevent in that area.
You could make your point with out getting so vulgar and personal....do not show ignorance by acting that way...I may agree with much of what you say but do you nedd to act so childish?

I Feel Sad Every Time I See A Good Man Go Down

Eutrusca, beauty my friend is in the eye of the beholder. I guess you ned a new pair of glasses. I wouldn't touch her even after 12 beers. Ich!!
Dude I do not agree wit hSteph and Zepp and I want yo uto shut up....You are about as effective as a rain coat in a flood....

This man is an innocent pawn in an illegal war. He is no hero. Just following orders from men who did every thing they could to get out of serving in war themselves. That's a fact!

He'd probably spit in your face if you said that to him.

He'd probably spit in your face if you said that to him.

No. He probably would not.

Props to this guy, and all veterans. He could have ducked down and covered his ass until the attack passed. Instead, he took action and saved his comrades. WMD, politicks, and all that nonsense aside, this guy is a man among men and it sucks that we can't even agree on that.

Even if we went to war because Bush's boots told us to, it doesn't change the fact that this guy took action and in doing so saved the lives of his brothers, even in excruciating pain. The fact that anyone could try to take away from the act makes me sad.

I'm anti-Bush, anti-War, and pretty firmly, albeit slightly jokingly, Anti-America, at the moment. But stories like this SHOULD lift the soul, not provoke yet another 'This war is sooooo wrong for XXXX number of reasons.' thread.

Pre 9/11, our town had a boom in Marine recruitment, especially in my senior class. This means that right now I have a number of friends serving abroad, at least two of them are currently in Iraq, another in Afghanistan, and a dozen more who knows where. I just hope that if, and when, the shit hits the fan, my friends have a guy like this Kearse around to watch their asses.

-Pants

It is my humble opinion that one should not so blithely discount the heroic actions of another individual simply because said action happened to be taken during an unpopular and "unjust" (in some opinons) war. Self sacrifice (to save another) is an honorable and heroic deed whether committed on the battlefield or off. Irregardless of circumstance, a noble act is exactly that. This man should be considered a hero for what he has done, not dimished for what he may or may not believe in.

In otherwords, recognize him for what he has done, not for what you think he should/shouldn't have done.

That being said, this man is a hero in my eyes.

You're most welcome, Peardon. I was stationed at Bragg twice, taught at the JFK SW Center. :)
Cool beans man I would love to talk with you some time...I was very famaliar with JFK SWC and JSOC...I was a on LRPS team...Email me at [email]airbornvet2gen@yahoo.com... Thanx for your service brother...

Props to this guy, and all veterans. He could have ducked down and covered his ass until the attack passed. Instead, he took action and saved his comrades. WMD, politicks, and all that nonsense aside, this guy is a man among men and it sucks that we can't even agree on that.

Even if we went to war because Bush's boots told us to, it doesn't change the fact that this guy took action and in doing so saved the lives of his brothers, even in excruciating pain. The fact that anyone could try to take away from the act makes me sad.

I'm anti-Bush, anti-War, and pretty firmly, albeit slightly jokingly, Anti-America, at the moment. But stories like this SHOULD lift the soul, not provoke yet another 'This war is sooooo wrong for XXXX number of reasons.' thread.

Pre 9/11, our town had a boom in Marine recruitment, especially in my senior class. This means that right now I have a number of friends serving abroad, at least two of them are currently in Iraq, another in Afghanistan, and a dozen more who knows where. I just hope that if, and when, the shit hits the fan, my friends have a guy like this Kearse around to watch their asses.

-Pants
AMEN!

This man is an innocent pawn in an illegal war. He is no hero. Just following orders from men who did every thing they could to get out of serving in war themselves. That's a fact!

No, you're a retard. That's a fact. And the people who concurr obviously have an IQ much higher than the room-temperature one you possess.

Unless you've been shot at in a combat zone before, or are one of the 3 men in that picture, I don't think you have any right (let alone any credibility) in insulting and critisizing the actions of such people who knowingly and willingly risk their lives for others when such action would be "above and beyond" what would normally be called for.

Firemen and police who encouter similar situations are similarly acknowleged, the CMOH is a military award, and with good reason. Some insane stuff happens in combat/war that would never ever be seen or happen to anyone during peace time.

Good work writing off/bashing people who are doing their job (and saving their own lives and the lives of their friends from some psychotic retard spraying bullets and grenades because they prefer to have no control over their country or lives by putting a religious dictator in power who would support stoning women to death for premarital sex and hang a guy for stealing bread)

Don't tell me you'd rather let this particular assailant exterminate you and your friends than do the stuff he had to do in order to save all of their asses

EDIT - Agrees with Pantera's post on the previous page

http://img184.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img184&image=831924510bradkasal0ep.jpg

Marine 1st Sergeant Brad Kasal (in the middle). This photo is from the most recent major offensive in Fallujah. Sgt. Kasal sacrificed his own safety to save a room full of fellow Marines. He ended up taking several AK rounds in the leg. Most of his lower leg was blown away but you can't tell it from this pic. He took rounds in the back which his armor saved him from. He took one round through his butt which passed through both cheeks leaving 4 holes in him. And he also took the brunt of a grenade blast. He jumped on top of a younger Marine to cover him from the fire. He killed the terrorist who did most of the damage to him and his men, and despite a massive loss of blood he never stopped fighting. Notice that he's still holding his pistol. He has been put in for the Medal of Honor for his actions on that day. He already has several Purple Hearts for previous battles throughout his career and he has turned some down so that he could stay with his unit.

*Applause for this great man*

Though I believe the Iraq war was unjustified and illegal, people are still willing to sacrifice themselves for others, which I appreciate.

(Note: I say "for others" because I don't believe in dying for a cause, only so others may live. I know it's contradictory, but it's hard to explain.)

No, you're a retard. That's a fact. And the people who concurr obviously have an IQ much higher than the room-temperature one you possess.


You know you can make points without comments like that. It only cheapens what you have to say.

You know you can make points without comments like that. It only cheapens what you have to say.

Yea, Ad Hominim doesn't do well for your cause. Be civil.

Cool beans man I would love to talk with you some time...I was very famaliar with JFK SWC and JSOC...I was a on LRPS team...Email me at [email]airbornvet2gen@yahoo.com... Thanx for your service brother...

Just sent you an email. Thank you for the props! :)

No, you're a retard. That's a fact. And the people who concurr obviously have an IQ much higher than the room-temperature one you possess.

I'm sure that some others on here, as well as I, appreciate the intensity of your views, but this really is uncalled for. Please restrain yourself.

BTW ... I've been "under fire" many times, so perhaps my request will carry a bit of weight with you.

I believe there are several on trial as we speak for their war crimes.. (torture)

.
There are also some black people right now in jail and on trial for various crimes such as rape and murder. Applying your same logic would be to presume all black people are rapists and murderers. I think you need sensitivity training if you truly believe that.

A Medal of Honor, wasn't that last given ages ago, in WW2? Thus being very important.

Some were given during Viet Nam. And yes, it is given for extraordinary heroism in combat.

This particular "ex-moderator" is a woman, and a beatiful one at that. What puzzles me is her apparent animus to any and all things American, even this young man who risked his life trying to save the men he leads. :(
why should anyone care what her appearance is? Looks are fleeting - it is what is on the inside that counts. I think we all have see enough to make our own determination in those regards.

. Americans themselves are just like everyone else...some are cool, some are a**holes...
I disagree - I don't think there are very many people who are always assholes. I think of it almost as an obligation that is passed around. All of us at one time or another find ourselves doing our share... Some more than others, but everybody at least once. It is nearly unavoidable.

Warning: Graphic Photos

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/1.stm
OK, this is something everyone should write in their "Book of Important Stuff to Know"

When driving your car directly towards a group of heavily armed men (for what purpose, I'm not sure) if they fire a warning shot at you, IMMEDIATELY STOP THE CAR, TURN AROUND AND DRIVE AWAY IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION VERY VERY FAST.

Agreed. The insurgents have violated the Laws of War.

However, there is no judicial notion of "but he did it too!"

Which is to say that violations on one side do not excuse them on the other.
Actually there is. If a law is not being enforced or is selectively enforced and you are accused of breaking it you have a quite strong defense.

So you suggest then that police, EMTs and firefighters are ineligible to be hero's because they choose a career where that is expected?

Gee, even in it's simplicity that is still stupid.

I suppose a model can't be called beautiful since that is what she's supposed to be. That's what she signed up for. A football player can't be athletic because that is what they signed up for. And a lawyer can't be a prick because it is just part of the job...


B0zzy -- you misunderstand me. The rolling eye smiley is to indicate that I do NOT believe that EMTs, firefighters, cops and yes, even soldiers, are less than heroic. If anything, signing onto a job where you know you will be called upon to put yourself into danger shows one is potentially a hero.

Much easier to sit home or at a 9-5, dontcha think?

Actually there is. If a law is not being enforced or is selectively enforced and you are accused of breaking it you have a quite strong defense.


Except that in this case the US military is "the law", so blaming the insurgents for failing in an enforcement capacity is rather besides the point.

Well, unless are you excusing the activities of the insurgents based upon the existance of some transgressions by some US servicemen ... which I doubt.

He'd probably spit in your face if you said that to him.
He wouldn't, but those people whom he took bullets for certainly would.

Kat- can you please take care of post #181, a clear flame. Thanks for doing a great job.

Kat- can you please take care of post #181, a clear flame. Thanks for doing a great job.

:confused:
Hold on a sec. He may be slightly cheapening his view, but his prognosis is what some of us were thinking, but had the restraint to not say.

Yea, Ad Hominim doesn't do well for your cause. Be civil.

Takuma is giving very good advice. STOP FLAMING. STOP TAUNTING. Attack the ARGUMENT and NOT THE POSTER.

"I disagree with you because...." is acceptable.
"You are a(n)....." is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Capische?

Disciplined Peoples -- do not call others idiots.
Occidio Multus -- do not call others rejects.
Daistallia -- I expected better from you than "STFU".
Foresal - do not call people fucking idiots, cowards, stupid, and tell them to STFU.
Johnny - it's not funny. Knock it off.
Atomic Alliance -- not acceptable. Cut it out.

I don't want to see this nonsense from any of you anymore. Consider this a very stiff warning to moderate your language or have it moderated for you.

Takuma is giving very good advice. STOP FLAMING. STOP TAUNTING. Attack the ARGUMENT and NOT THE POSTER.

"I disagree with you because...." is acceptable.
"You are a(n)....." is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Capische?

Disciplined Peoples -- do not call others idiots.
Occidio Multus -- do not call others rejects.
Daistallia -- I expected better from you than "STFU".
Foresal - do not call people fucking idiots, cowards, stupid, and tell them to STFU.
Johnny - it's not funny. Knock it off.
Atomic Alliance -- not acceptable. Cut it out.

I don't want to see this nonsense from any of you anymore. Consider this a very stiff warning to moderate your language or have it moderated for you.
Thank you Kat....

It is my humble opinion that one should not so blithely discount the heroic actions of another individual simply because said action happened to be taken during an unpopular and "unjust" (in some opinons) war. Self sacrifice (to save another) is an honorable and heroic deed whether committed on the battlefield or off. Irregardless of circumstance, a noble act is exactly that. This man should be considered a hero for what he has done, not dimished for what he may or may not believe in.

In otherwords, recognize him for what he has done, not for what you think he should/shouldn't have done.

That being said, this man is a hero in my eyes.

Agreed, Steph I really think you should show some respect to someone who risked his life to save another. In this instance I dont give fuck if this war was just or not, what this man did was heroic.

I am actually shocked you would disregard someones actions because of where they are. I do believe your view here is clouded by your opinion of the war. Please have another think about this mans actions and if he wasnt in Iraq, what would you think then?

Yes, putting oneself in danger to protect others is no big thing... after all firefighters, EMTs and police are just doing their jobs as well when they get killed on the job too. :rolleyes:

Yeah, but they don't have assault rifle rounds and grenades flying about them all day long. :rolleyes:

The last time it was awarded, other than to the one soldier who was killed while engaging a vastly superior force virtually single-handedly in Iraq, was in Somalia ... to two Delta Force snipers who were killed while protecting wounded.

See http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm for more info on the CMH.

The only time in my life I have seen a roomfull of general officers stand at attention for someone of lower rank was when a CMH winner walked into the room. The CMH is the highest honor the US can bestow.
Forgive me if I missed a correction in the other 13 pages here, but another Medal of Honor was just recently bestowed postumously upon a soldier who was fighting in Iraq. A Sgt. Smith I believe. So that is after the two Delta snipers from Somalia.

Those are the ones who managed to survive the crazy shit they pulled the first time and decided to go out and pull some more crazy shit. The question is how many survived the second incident.
About double Medals of Honor, I know at least Dan Daly, USMC survived the actions for which he recieved both of his medals, and stayed in the Marines. Genuine hero.

Forgive me if I missed a correction in the other 13 pages here, but another Medal of Honor was just recently bestowed postumously upon a soldier who was fighting in Iraq. A Sgt. Smith I believe. So that is after the two Delta snipers from Somalia.

so if this fellow recieves it, he may be the first living soldier to be awarded one since the vietnam war.

so if this fellow recieves it, he may be the first living soldier to be awarded one since the vietnam war.
As far as I know. Although there were some awarded during Clinton's presidency for actions in WWII, so for actions since the Vietnam war, you'd be right.

Some could argue no, it makes them thrill seekers, ego's so big they can't get their heads though the door. Any one who thinks the war in Iraq was just, doesn't know what they are talking about. Thus how there be hero's in a unjust war!? Makes no sense to me.

Sorry, got this far in the thread and couldn't take any more of your crap and I don't care who you are. Ex-mod... hmmm... who has the ego issue here? The Sergeant who risked his OWN FUCKING LIFE or you, sitting on your chair, criticising a REAL HERO, openly and anonymously, because you think he has "an ego problem".

Fuck you and fuck anyone like you. You don't have a CLUE what goes on in REAL WAR. I know people who have seen stuff like this and I can't believe you have the audacity to think this kind of action is not worthy of recognition. Next time, bite your tongue, regardless of what your dumbass may be telling your mouth to say.

Sorkovia, I agree, despite the fact that you are flaming. I think Steph's opinions are execrable and I hope he leaves the land of the free and brave to find a home more along the lines supported by such abject moral cowardice.

I don't know if anybody ever saw this, but here is an article from November about a Marine.


On the morning of November 15, 2004, the men of 1st Battalion, 3rd Marines
awoke before sunrise and continued what they had been doing for seven days
previously - cleansing the city of Fallujah of terrorists house by house.

At the fourth house they encountered that morning the Marines kicked in the
door and "cleared" the front rooms, but then noticed a locked door off to
the side that required inspection. Sgt. Rafael Peralta threw open the
closed door, but behind it were three terrorists with AK-47s. Peralta was
hit in the head and chest with multiple shots at close range.

Peralta's fellow Marines had to step over his body to continue the shootout
with the terrorists. As the firefight raged on, a "yellow, foreign-made,
oval-shaped grenade," as Lance Corporal Travis Kaemmerer described it,
rolled into the room where they were all standing and came to a stop near
Peralta's body.

But Sgt. Rafael Peralta wasn't dead - yet. This young immigrant of 25
years, who enlisted in the Marines when he received his green card, who
volunteered for the front line duty in Fallujah, had one last act of
heroism in him.

As Sgt. Rafael Peralta lay near death on the floor of
a Fallujah terrorist hideout, he spotted the yellow grenade that had rolled
next to his near-lifeless body. Once detonated, it would take out the rest
of Peralta's squad. To save his fellow Marines, Peralta reached out,
grabbed the grenade, and tucked it under his abdomen where it exploded.

"Most of the Marines in the house were in the immediate area of the
grenade," Cpl. Kaemmerer said. "We will never forget the second chance at
life that Sgt. Peralta gave us."

Another true hero.

Sorry, got this far in the thread and couldn't take any more of your crap and I don't care who you are. Ex-mod... hmmm... who has the ego issue here? The Sergeant who risked his OWN FUCKING LIFE or you, sitting on your chair, criticising a REAL HERO, openly and anonymously, because you think he has "an ego problem".

Fuck you and fuck anyone like you. You don't have a CLUE what goes on in REAL WAR. I know people who have seen stuff like this and I can't believe you have the audacity to think this kind of action is not worthy of recognition. Next time, bite your tongue, regardless of what your dumbass may be telling your mouth to say.
well i think the real issue steph is trying to bring out is whether their are heros in unjust wars, or on unjust sides of conflicts. would he have been as much a hero if the situation was the same, but the sides were reversed and he had been seriously wounded fighting for and saving the lives of his comrades on the insurgent side, or if he had been a red army soldier fighting the guerillas in afghanistan in the 80s or chechnya now, or even a german soldier in ww2? i personally think you can be a hero even on the wrong side, and valor is often distinct from ideology, but it is an intersting question.

Where did she criticise him? As far as I can tell, she's saying he shouldn't be idolised.

I think he should get the medal of honor. I have no problem with the people in the military themselves, I only have a problem with corrupt leaders who send them into harm's way for no good reason. The marine doesn't dictate foreign policy, and should not be punished for the leader's incompetance. He didn't need to take it for his comrades, but he did. I think he should get the CMH.

Sorkovia, I agree, despite the fact that you are flaming. I think Steph's opinions are execrable and I hope he leaves the land of the free and brave to find a home more along the lines supported by such abject moral cowardice.
she's canadian, its not her war, and the american troops aren't her countries soldiers.

I don't know if anybody ever saw this, but here is an article from November about a Marine.



Another true hero.
:eek: WOW!

I don't know if anybody ever saw this, but here is an article from November about a Marine.



Another true hero.

i think i heard something about his family being brought in from mexico for the funeral by another deceased soldier from his outfit's family and the two families setting up some fund in both their memories, but its very possible it was another foriegn national us soldier who died in iraq.

Sorry, got this far in the thread and couldn't take any more of your crap and I don't care who you are. Ex-mod... hmmm... who has the ego issue here? The Sergeant who risked his OWN FUCKING LIFE or you, sitting on your chair, criticising a REAL HERO, openly and anonymously, because you think he has "an ego problem".

Fuck you and fuck anyone like you. You don't have a CLUE what goes on in REAL WAR. I know people who have seen stuff like this and I can't believe you have the audacity to think this kind of action is not worthy of recognition. Next time, bite your tongue, regardless of what your dumbass may be telling your mouth to say.

You can agree or disagree.... it's just MY opinion. But you don't have a right to flame me. That is what all this is about yes? Freedom? So I am entilted to my opinion, no matter how much it may or may not offend you.

About double Medals of Honor, I know at least Dan Daly, USMC survived the actions for which he recieved both of his medals, and stayed in the Marines. Genuine hero.

Tom Custer brother of George got two in the Civil war. Didn't Audie Murphy get two as well?

Where did she criticise him? As far as I can tell, she's saying he shouldn't be idolised.

Bingo!!!!!

And why shouldn't the guy be idolized? He did everything in his power to preserve the lives of his brothers in arms, fighting with his teeth bared. Even if you disagree with the entire situation, the war and the politics, I don't see how can anyone -not- simply shake their head and say,"We need more people like this man."

Personally, I'm glad that I'm at home with a beer, a spliff, a breast in my hand and my daughter in her crib, safe and sound. I gave alot of thought to signing up, and I thank the Gods every day that I didn't. I despise the American administration, the war, and the politicking that's surrounding it all, but I -do- love my country and what it stands for, even if we lose sight of it at times. Yet, it still doesn't change the fact that, right or wrong, this guy took alot of shit and kept kicking until the enemy was defeated, and his brothers out of danger.

I don't hold the guy any higher because he was a soldier or because he's getting a medal. I respect, and yes, idolize, the man because he still has what so many of us have lost. He wasn't forced to sacrifice himself, but from the looks of things he was more than willing to do so to see his buddies walk out of there and get home to that bottle and breast I spoke of earlier. Acts like this feed the magic that most of us have lost, and it shocks me that people could shrug something like this off with a 'He's just a soldier fighting for a corrupt regime which, by association, makes him a corrupt plunderer as well.'

I'll say again that we need more people like this man, and to encourage each other to strive for this kind of selfless heroism.... But I'll stop there, because the booze is making me maudlin, and noone likes a melancholy Reaver. If this story didn't lift your soul, I'm kinda sorry for you.

And quit flaming you wretched assholes.... ;)

-Pants

Yeah, but they don't have assault rifle rounds and grenades flying about them all day long. :rolleyes:


Depends on the neighborhood, actually. Unfortunately, I know of cops, and espcially EMTs and firefighters who ARE fired on in the commission of their job.

He'd better get some decent healthcare when he get home.
Those injuries are going to plague him for the rest of his life.

And I hope the Australian soldiers don't get into the same situations as he did.
Cowardly pollies using the army as cannon fodder as usual.

http://img184.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img184&image=831924510bradkasal0ep.jpg

Marine 1st Sergeant Brad Kasal (in the middle). This photo is from the most recent major offensive in Fallujah. Sgt. Kasal sacrificed his own safety to save a room full of fellow Marines. He ended up taking several AK rounds in the leg. Most of his lower leg was blown away but you can't tell it from this pic. He took rounds in the back which his armor saved him from. He took one round through his butt which passed through both cheeks leaving 4 holes in him. And he also took the brunt of a grenade blast. He jumped on top of a younger Marine to cover him from the fire. He killed the terrorist who did most of the damage to him and his men, and despite a massive loss of blood he never stopped fighting. Notice that he's still holding his pistol. He has been put in for the Medal of Honor for his actions on that day. He already has several Purple Hearts for previous battles throughout his career and he has turned some down so that he could stay with his unit.

This man deserves the Medal of Honor and I wish I had a vote and say in the matter!

I'm just waiting for someone to start a parallel thread praising the amazing bravery of suicide bombers in Iraq who are prepared to face certian death in order to kill the violent terrorists invading their country ;)

I'm just waiting for someone to start a parallel thread praising the amazing bravery of suicide bombers in Iraq who are prepared to face certian death in order to kill the violent terrorists invading their country ;)

As am I but they are homicide bombers. Suicide means you just kill yourself. Homicide means you take others out. Could be suicide-homicide bombers but definitely not just suicide. It's a little pet peeve I have.

I always find it fascinating to read the reasons behind major awards (VC of course). Some of my favourites:
Moana-Nui-a-Kiwa Ngarimu, the only Maori to receive the award.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moana-Nui-a-Kiwa_Ngarimu
Doesn't tell the whole story though. During the night when their line was breached, he personally stopped the Germans, firing until he ran out of ammo and proceeded to fight hand to hand, and even threw rocks at them to scare them into thinking they were grenades. When his body was found the following day it was literally surrounded by dead Germans, and he had his hands round the throat of one of them (probably the one who had killed him).

Lloyd Trigg:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Allan_Trigg
The only person to receive a VC solely on the basis of reports and recommendations from the enemy. Also came from near where I grew up, which is why I know of him - I went to school with some of the rellies.

A bit of trivia for you racing car fans:
Alfred Hulme:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Clive_Hulme
From what I remember, Hulme enjoyed sneaking off at night and hunting down the German snipers. Reminded him of hunting in the bush back in NZ apparently. Deer of course, not Germans.
His son Denis(Denny) Hulme was a Formula One champion (1967). An excellent question to stump petrol heads ("who is the only Formula One champion whose father won the VC?")

And I can't forget the greatest soldier of WWII, Charles Upham:
One of only 3 people ever to recieve the Victoria Cross and Bar and the only combatant soldier to receive them.
One thing that is incredibly humbling to read (not in the above article but in a biography of him) was that Upham was genuinely distressed to be singled out for the award, believing that many others deserved it more than he did.

This is what he did, that he believed was not deserving of an award:

As a 2nd Lieut. in New Zealand's Canterbury Regiment, Upham commanded a platoon in the defence of Crete. On May 21, 1941, unsupported by any other arms, he led his platoon 3,000 yards against fortified German positions. When pinned down by machinegun fire, he advanced and took out the position with grenades and his pistol. When another section was under fire, Upham crawled to the German machinegun nest and took it out with grenades. Then he crawled through enemy fire to another machinegun post, and destroyed it. When ordered to withdraw, Upham carried out a wounded soldier while under fire. Another company became isolated, so Upham went through 600 yards of enemy territory to guide it out, killing two Germans on the way.
The following day he was wounded by shrapnel in his left shoulder due to two mortar shells, but refused to be evacuated. A bullet also hit his foot (which he didn't pull out until 2 weeks later). Again, when his platoon was under fire, Upham crawled forward with his platoon and routed the Germans, killing 40.

When ordered to retire, he sent the platoon back with a sergeant and personally went to warn other troops they were being cut off. He was fired upon and played dead. While the platoon watched from too far aware to help, two German soldiers approached him. With his arm in a sling (due to the shrapnel in his shoulder) he braced his rifle in the crook of a tree, shot one German and reloaded his gun with his unwounded arm before shooting the second German who was so close he fell against the barrel of Upham's rifle.
Although exhausted he then crawled to the top of a ridge with a Bren gun and two riflemen, and shot 22 Germans, causing the enemy to flee in panic. Throughout the nine-day engagement he was wracked with dysentery, as well as badly wounded.
All this garnered him his VC.

A year later he got his bar. He was a captain commanding a company in North Africa, attacking a feature called El Ruweisat Ridge.
Wounded twice, he refused to be evacuated, and with grenades, ambushed and destroyed a truckload of German soldiers.
When communications broke down, he went forward alone with a Sandau gun, fought several enemy machinegun posts, and brought back the required information. In a following attack he knocked out four machinegun posts and several tanks. Then he swung to his left flank and attacked and destroyed a German tank and several guns.
Upham was shot through the elbow (breaking his arm), but kept going and beat off a determined counter-attack. Treated at an aid post, he refused to be evacuated and returned to the front to be with his men. He was wounded again.
He and six from his company were the only survivors when they were overrun and captured. Viewed by the Germans as dangerous and relentless in efforts to escape, Upham spent the rest of the war in the notorious Colditz Castle.

When King George VI asked Maj.Gen. Sir Howard Kippenberger if he really deserved a bar to the VC, Kippenberger replied:
"In my respectful opinion, sir, Upham has won the VC several times over."

Can't say much here, but total respect and awe.
Especially this bit:
When the people of Canterbury collected and offered him 10,000 pounds to purchase a farm in recognition of his gallantry, Upham refused and instead insisted the money be put towards an educational scholarship for children of returned soldiers.

There's a great photo of Upham sitting in the desert eating a tin of spam and glaring straight at the camera. Doesn't look heroic in the least. Except for the incredible determination you can see in his eyes. Can't find it on the net sorry, but it should be floating around somewhere.

And for the women, there's Nancy Wake (a French resistance hero):
http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/wake.html#WAKE
After the war her achievements were heralded by medals and awards: the George Medal from Britain for her leadership and bravery under fire, the Resistance Medal, Officer of the Legion d’Honneur and Croix de Guerre with two bronze palms and a silver star from France, and the Medal of Freedom from America.
There's not many (if any) ppl who could claim medals from 3 different countries.

I often wonder as to what is bravery? When reading through the awards, it seems to me that in a great proportion of them, the person had just lost it completely and manages through dumb luck not to get killed.
Like John Hinton:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Daniel_Hinton
The full report I read said that when the order came to retreat, he said "To hell with that!" and rushed the machine gun nest, broke in and bayonetted the German soldiers. He then proceeded to do this to every Gun nest and German he found. He only stopped when he was too wounded to carry on.

Now that is not the actions of a logical man. I would say he had lost all reason completely and was operating at a far more basic level. The reason he managed to wdo what he did was probably because the enemy was not expecting it at all and couldn't rationalise what the Hinton was doing, which gave him enough time to get close enough to kill them.
Reminds me of a bit in a great trilogy by Robertson Davies (The Deptford trilogy), when one of them is recounting how he had won a medal in WWI. It was because under fire, he went momentarily insane and no longer caring whether he lived or died, rushed a machine gun nest and killed the Germans. How often does that happen under fire, I wonder? Some are lucky enough to get through it and declared heroes, while others are just killed.

she's canadian, its not her war, and the american troops aren't her countries soldiers.
This isn't surprising. There are Canadians worth paying attention to, but Steph fits the stereotype of so many of her gutless countrymen, full of talk, lacking morals or the backbone to act upon them.

Charles Upham...Reminds me of Alvin York, the most highly decorated soldier of WWI (and an American) From Wikipedia:
Alvin Cullum York (December 13, 1887 – September 2, 1964) was a United States soldier, famous for his heroism in World War I.

York was born in poverty in Pall Mall, Tennessee. His family owned a meager farm and often supplemented their diet via hunting. As a result, young Alvin became an expert marksman in the area woods. York was something of a "nuisance" as a youth, frequently getting into drunken brawls. In 1914 his best friend was killed in a bar fight, prompting York to change his ways. He became a devout Christian after that incident, which supposedly led him to file as a conscientious objector at the start of WWI (though there are disputes as to his exact technical status).

York eventually was drafted into the 82nd Infantry Division in 1917. As a corporal in its 328th Infantry, in the Battle of Meuse River-Argonne Forest on 1918 October 8, he assumed command of his platoon after three other NCOs fell. While he is sometimes described as acting single-handedly, his official citation says he led seven others in a charge on an active machine-gun nest. They killed 25 German soldiers and captured 132, including four officers. (He is said to have explained this feat by saying they had surrounded the enemy.) His chain of command honored this accomplishment by awarding him the Distinguished Service Cross and the Medal of Honor. France, whose forces he was directly aiding and whose territory was involved, added its Croix de Guerre and Legion of Honor. Italy and Montenegro, also allies, awarded him their Croce di Guerra and War Medal, respectively. At the time of his heroics, he was in fact only a corporal; his promotion to sergeant was part of the honor that he received for his valor but resulted in his becoming known to the US (and much of the world) as "Sgt. York".

Returning home as a war hero, he founded a private agricultural institute in Jamestown, Tennessee, near his home town of Pall Mall. York Insitute never thrived under his management and was eventually turned over to the State of Tennessee. It still serves as the public high school for northern part of Fentress County, Tennessee despite being operated by the State Department of Education; theoretically any qualified high school student from any part of Tennessee can attend school there in order to study agriculture, but in practice almost all of the students are from the immediate area. York later operated a mill in Pall Mall on the Wolf River which is today part of a state park. The state of Tennessee provided him with a large (by the standards of the area, at least) white frame home near the mill on U.S. Highway 127, which still stands. He died of a cerebral hemorrhage in 1964 and is buried in Pall Mall.

Sergeant York, a 1941 movie, told his story, with Gary Cooper playing the title role.
Amazing hero.

Umm, does that mean you have to be or have been gay to be critical of gays?

Does that mean you have to throw out Non-Sequiturs :rolleyes: ?

He'd better get some decent healthcare when he get home.
Those injuries are going to plague him for the rest of his life.

American military personnel are rated on the extent of their injuries. If the rating is above 30% the government pays for 100% healthcare ... period. I'm rated at 40% because of the metal holding my right leg together, the fact that they couldn't fully straighten my right ankle, and the fact that I lost a portion of the vision in my right eye as a result of too much anesthetic during my first 3 months in the hospital.

American military personnel are rated on the extent of their injuries. If the rating is above 30% the government pays for 100% healthcare ... period. I'm rated at 40% because of the metal holding my right leg together, the fact that they couldn't fully straighten my right ankle, and the fact that I lost a portion of the vision in my right eye as a result of too much anesthetic during my first 3 months in the hospital.

Forrest, thank you for your service and awareness of our great countymen. This Steph creature certainly hides well behind the freedoms we have given her...she really should however STFU

Forrest, thank you for your service and awareness of our great countymen. This Steph creature certainly hides well behind the freedoms we have given her...she really should however STFU

Well, despite the fact that she's Canadian ( she would maintain that because she's Canadian ), she still has a right to speak her peace. This is, after all, an international Forum. :)

Thank you for the kind words. :)

B0zzy -- you misunderstand me. The rolling eye smiley is to indicate that I do NOT believe that EMTs, firefighters, cops and yes, even soldiers, are less than heroic. If anything, signing onto a job where you know you will be called upon to put yourself into danger shows one is potentially a hero.

Much easier to sit home or at a 9-5, dontcha think?

My bad Kat; sorry. It amazes me that some folks are so selfish about their partisianship they can't see straight. It is, however, refreshing to see the vast majority of people are still in touch with reality.

I should probably throw in a 'dumbass' 'retard' and 'kiss my ass' just to fit in with the tone this thread has taken. Just goin' with the flow. Maybe we should start a new 'Set fire to Steph' thread for those interested parties? Call it Burn the witch! (http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/grail-05.htm)

"Well, she turned me into a newt!" :)

Forrest, thank you for your service and awareness of our great countymen. This Steph creature certainly hides well behind the freedoms we have given her...she really should however STFU
wait, let me get this straight...

you claim that you have "given" freedoms to Americans

you think that, because you have "given" those freedoms, you get to silence anybody who doesn't agree with you. and you feel that doesn't contradict your claim that Americans have freedom.

you claim that Steph, who is not American, has also received her freedoms from you, and therefore you have the right to tell her to shut up.

you are an embarassment to America, sir, and i am ashamed that people like you spend so much time humiliating themselves and degrading our nation by peddling such idiotic and anti-American ideas. by attempting to silence voices of disent you commit treason against the deepest values of America, and you spit on the efforts of all the men and women who have fought, lived, worked, and died for American ideals.

Except that in this case the US military is "the law", so blaming the insurgents for failing in an enforcement capacity is rather besides the point.

Well, unless are you excusing the activities of the insurgents based upon the existance of some transgressions by some US servicemen ... which I doubt.
I' not sure you and I are on the same page here - I think we're discussing two seperate topics. you may want to review the thread i was quoting in this post. It had little to do with the foreign terrorists in Iraq as I understood it.

"Well, she turned me into a newt!" :)

"I got better!" [ defensive look ] :D

....He ended up taking several AK rounds in the leg. Most of his lower leg was blown away but you can't tell it from this pic. He took rounds in the back which his armor saved him from. He took one round through his butt which passed through both cheeks leaving 4 holes in him. And he also took the brunt of a grenade blast.
This is the sort of man I want on my side!
I guess... its always good to have men who are willing to die for the cause.

who would walk into a certain death...for his side.

Heroes?..yes indeed.

wait, let me get this straight...

you claim that you have "given" freedoms to Americans

you think that, because you have "given" those freedoms, you get to silence anybody who doesn't agree with you. and you feel that doesn't contradict your claim that Americans have freedom.

you claim that Steph, who is not American, has also received her freedoms from you, and therefore you have the right to tell her to shut up.

you are an embarassment to America, sir, and i am ashamed that people like you spend so much time humiliating themselves and degrading our nation by peddling such idiotic and anti-American ideas. by attempting to silence voices of disent you commit treason against the deepest values of America, and you spit on the efforts of all the men and women who have fought, lived, worked, and died for American ideals.

I'm not sure what is more shameful, dissing a wounded soldier for one's own political agenda, or invoking the names of those soldiers who died to provide you the right to dis a wounded soldier as part of a defense in dissing a wounded soldier.

There is no shame in wishing someone had more class, though I agree it was expressed poorly.

Originally Posted by Bottle
wait, let me get this straight...

you claim that you have "given" freedoms to Americans

I'm not sure what is more shameful, dissing a wounded soldier for one's own political agenda, or invoking the names of those soldiers who died to provide you the right to dis a wounded soldier as part of a defense in dissing a wounded soldier.

There is no shame in wishing someone had more class, though I agree it was expressed poorly.

Why yes, I do believe the freedoms we Share, were fought for in many methods. I also have the right to tell her to shut up and she can Freely chose whether to have some "Class" and do that or keep yackin'. I understand Freedom fine Bottle. Didn't mean to nearly kill our thread here. I believe the soldier is worthy of recognition as many have said. Simple enough...Now I am also glad she's not living in America...Happy