NationStates Jolt Archive

To be accepted by God you need to believe truely the following things

1- That you have sinned/done wrong/been bad etc
2- That you cannot deal with the implications of said sins yourself
3- That you need a power beyond your understanding (God) to deal with it
4- That there is a God beyond your understanding who wants to and can deal with it.*
5- Having accepted that you are in the wrong (sinned) you need to do something about it.

Here is what happens if you fail to accept any one of those things

1) If you refuse to accept that you are in the wrong, you are immature and arrogent, believeing that you are perfect, and on a par with God.

2) If you believe that you can deal with it yourself then you are still immatrue and arrogent, believeing that you can somehow redeem yourself by being good enough for God by your achivements. While your achievements now may be great, they do not remove any previous sins you have done. You cannot remove sins of your own power.

3&4) If you refuse to believe that there is a God and that he can and is willing to help you then what right do you have to expect any help from him. Thats rather like a friend sending you a letter attmepting to console you over a recent traumatic event, you sending a letter back to them saying you refuse to believe they exist and then expecting them to continue being friendly to you. God is there and God is willing. If you dont believe he exists he wont help you. It's the old line "Atheists don't believe in God don't they. Well God doesnt believe in Athiests". Why exactly should God help you if you dont believe he exists and that he can help you.

5) If you are aware of your sin (and if you are not you are very ignorent, see points one and two) and the fact that but do nothing about it, its rather like wearing the same clothes for an entire year despite having a full wardrobe and a fully working washing machine and a years supply of Ariel tablets. If you refuse to do anything about you sin, its akin to not accepting it is there in the first place and that is just stupid and ignorent (see point 1)

Works are not a part of salvation itself. You do not have to do X ammount of Y quality good deeds to get into heaven and not do Z ammount of R quality bad things. Here is why. The only way to get into heaven by works is to live the life of Jesus exactly, to the letter and no more. Since no human can do that, God sent Jesus to deal with this problem.

*(Note at this point, many people point to the fact there are many people who will have never heard of Jesus or how God dealt with sin through him. But you do not have to have a detailed understanding of the method of how God saves us via Jesus. If anything, if you dont understand you have a greater faith. All you need to know is that God can save you and he is willing to)

Why have I sinned? I mean, probably by now I have, but what if I haven't? What if, from the moment I had matured enough to control my actions, I had followed the teachings of Jesus? Have I still sinned? Am I being punished for something that someone else did?

IMO, that isn't fair. Or right. In fact, it isn't the action of an "All-loving" God.

Why have I sinned? I mean, probably by now I have, but what if I haven't? What if, from the moment I had matured enough to control my actions, I had followed the teachings of Jesus? Have I still sinned? Am I being punished for something that someone else did?

IMO, that isn't fair. Or right. In fact, it isn't the action of an "All-loving" God.

Sinning is not always doing something. It can be not doing something. Like I said, the only way to not sin at all was to live the life of Jesus to the letter. Obviously people couldnt do that so God created another method.

"Loving god, vengeful god. Loving god, vengeful god!" - Homer simpson playing with a changing image of god.

http://www.terrace.qld.edu.au/moo/god.jpg

1) If you refuse to accept that you are in the wrong, you are immature and arrogent, believeing that you are perfect, and on a par with God.
2) If you believe that you can deal with it yourself then you are still immatrue and arrogent, believeing that you can somehow redeem yourself by being good enough for God by your achivements. While your achievements now may be great, they do not remove any previous sins you have done. You cannot remove sins of your own power.

I don't think I'm perfect, or on par with God. I do however not think my 'sins' require the forgiveness of a supreme being. They require the forgiveness of the people I wronged.
Of course, if God (or you) can convince me I've wronged Him your point is valid. But only then IMO.

Why exactly should God help you if you dont believe he exists and that he can help you.
Well.. 2 reasons.
1. because he is God. He is supposed to be above human pettiness, and still love you even if you disbelief.
2. Because God often is the one causing the trouble. Take the tsunami for instance. His mess, his to clean up.
Where I cause trouble myself He of course has no obligation whatsoever to come to my aid.

If you refuse to do anything about you sin, its akin to not accepting it is there in the first place and that is just stupid and ignorent (see point 1)
First proof me I've done God wrong before talking of 'Sin' please.

As long as we're clear that Jesus is not God and that God does not need Jesus in any capacity, then all is right with the world.

And then there are those of us who, on those occassions when we know we have done wrong, simply feel the need to take personal responsibility for those actions and do our best to redress them rather than pawn it off on the invisible man.


In other words, we skip your points 1 to 4 and jump straight to 5 where we do our utmost to make the world right on our own rather than counting on others to do it for us.


Frankly, we might just get more done because we believe that it won't be done if we don't do it. It's one heck of a motivating factor.....

And then there are those of us who, on those occassions when we know we have done wrong, simply feel the need to take personal responsibility for those actions and do our best to redress them rather than pawn it off on the invisible man.


In other words, we skip your points 1 to 4 and jump straight to 5 where we do our utmost to make the world right on our own rather than counting on others to do it for us.


Frankly, we might just get more done because we believe that it won't be done if we don't do it. It's one heck of a motivating factor.....

But according to Post #1, self-reliance and personal accountability are "arrogant" and "immature".

I have never sinned.
Because there is no sin in my belief system. As i do not sin, i do not seek penance. Call that arrogant, but that only shows that you want to superimpose your mindset over those of others, which constitutes hubris, a sin in your belief system.

Why exactly should God help you if you dont believe he exists and that he can help you.Supposedly, he's a better, and bigger, person than any of us.
On the other hand he does admit to being a jealous God..

Sin is a disease that the christians invented so that their priests can sell the cure.

Thats the basis of western religion, infection.

But according to Post #1, self-reliance and personal accountability are "arrogant" and "immature".


Your right. I should rather sue those who wrong me, and abdicate my own responsibilities when I wrong others....


Then would I be a true Christian?

;)

Why have I sinned? I mean, probably by now I have, but what if I haven't? What if, from the moment I had matured enough to control my actions, I had followed the teachings of Jesus? Have I still sinned? Am I being punished for something that someone else did?

IMO, that isn't fair. Or right. In fact, it isn't the action of an "All-loving" God.

Have you ever met a child who never lied? who never disobeyed their parents? who never got in a fight? Your what if scenario is illogical.

Have you ever met a child who never lied? who never disobeyed their parents? who never got in a fight? Your what if scenario is illogical.

So I can be punished because I was a child, and didn't know any better? How can a benevolent God punish me with eternal torment simply because I was too young to understand fully what I was doing?

If you haven't noticed, under Western law, children are not punished in the same way adults are for committing crimes. That's because they can't be held responsible for their actions. So do you want to change our laws, or do you think it is right for me to go to Hell because I lied once?

So I can be punished because I was a child, and didn't know any better? How can a benevolent God punish me with eternal torment simply because I was too young to understand fully what I was doing?

If you haven't noticed, under Western law, children are not punished in the same way adults are for committing crimes. That's because they can't be held responsible for their actions. So do you want to change our laws, or do you think it is right for me to go to Hell because I lied once?

You do know better. Kids know not to lie, they know they need to respect their parents, they know not to fight. They know there are consequences to it. They get punished, spanked, time out or whatever the case may be. They know its wrong, they do it anyway. Children are held responsible for their actions in modern society just as much as adults are. If you had been keeping up with the news then you would know there is a very high profile case going on where a 12 year old is facing life imprisonment (the Zoloft defense case). That case is only in the news because of the Zoloft defense, there are countless other cases some involving children even younger than that who are sentenced to adult sentences, including death. Is this right? The government seems to think so and the lack of societal outrage has shown that people generally do not seem to mind. So, to answer your question, no I do not need to change the laws, the laws already exist to prosecute children as adults. God isnt like that though, chances are that if you were to die as a child you would not be sentenced to eternity in hell. My point was that your what if situation is illogical. If you want to change your argument to say that it is unfair for a different reason, you can, but that isnt what I was arguing against, I was arguing against your illogical assumption that its possible for someone to never commit a sin.

You do know better. Kids know not to lie, they know they need to respect their parents, they know not to fight. They know there are consequences to it. They get punished, spanked, time out or whatever the case may be. They know its wrong, they do it anyway. Children are held responsible for their actions in modern society. If you had been keeping up with the news then you would know there is a very high profile case going on where a 12 year old is facing life imprisonment (the Zoloft defense case). That case is only in the news because of the Zoloft defense, there are countless other cases some involving children even younger than that who are sentenced to adult sentences, including death. Is this right? The government seems to think so. So, no I do not need to change the laws the laws are already prosecuting children as adults. God isnt like that though, chances are that if you were to die as a child you would not be sentenced to eternity in hell. My point was that your what if situation is illogical. If you want to change your argument to say that it is unfair for a different reason, you can, but that isnt what I was arguing against, I was arguing against your illogical assumption that its possible for someone to never commit a sin.


so you are telling me that a 3 year old knows that doing something will send them to hell for all eternity?

I personaly dont think the average 3 year old can understand all thoes concepts (they may regurgitate them if a parent teaches them but they dont UNDERSTAND for them eternity is the time between lunch and supper)

so you are telling me that a 3 year old knows that doing something will send them to hell for all eternity?

I personaly dont think the average 3 year old can understand all thoes concepts (they may regurgitate them if a parent teaches them but they dont UNDERSTAND for them eternity is the time between lunch and supper)

I never said such a thing. I simply said that it is impossible for someone to live a life without ever committing a sin. Which is what you claimed is indeed possible. You have so far failed to prove it, whereas Ive proved that regardless of age, you cannot live a life free from sin.

To be accepted by God you need to believe truely the following things

1- That you have sinned/done wrong/been bad etc


You also have to agree that those "sins" -were- bad.


2- That you cannot deal with the implications of said sins yourself


Which is ludicrous unless you went and killed someone, in which case, you need therapy, not magic.


3- That you need a power beyond your understanding (God) to deal with it


Or a shrink.


4- That there is a God beyond your understanding who wants to and can deal with it.*


And somehow you need to convince yourself that the Biblical notion of deity isn't an evil rat bastard with evil rat bastard followers and kind but hopelessly deluded followers.


5- Having accepted that you are in the wrong (sinned) you need to do something about it.


Which a shrink can help you with.


Here is what happens if you fail to accept any one of those things


Oooh, threats! Always proof of love.


1) If you refuse to accept that you are in the wrong, you are immature and arrogent, believeing that you are perfect, and on a par with God.


Or that making mistakes is natural, and that nothing you've done is that big a fricking deal, and that the Biblical deity is so far from perfect its laughable.


2) If you believe that you can deal with it yourself then you are still immatrue and arrogent, believeing that you can somehow redeem yourself by being good enough for God by your achivements. While your achievements now may be great, they do not remove any previous sins you have done. You cannot remove sins of your own power.


Or you've figured out that you don't need any psychotic magic creature's approval, since it's done worse than most humans are physically capable of.


3&4) If you refuse to believe that there is a God and that he can and is willing to help you then what right do you have to expect any help from him.


Same with the Easter Bunny. If you don't have faith, no chocolate eggs for you. You expect chocolate eggs, dontcha?


Thats rather like a friend sending you a letter attmepting to console you over a recent traumatic event, you sending a letter back to them saying you refuse to believe they exist and then expecting them to continue being friendly to you. God is there and God is willing. If you dont believe he exists he wont help you. It's the old line "Atheists don't believe in God don't they. Well God doesnt believe in Athiests". Why exactly should God help you if you dont believe he exists and that he can help you.


As we all know, your parents will send you to hell if you ignore them, rather than love you despite not being able to get through to you, showing that God is better because he's petty.


5) If you are aware of your sin (and if you are not you are very ignorent, see points one and two) and the fact that but do nothing about it, its rather like wearing the same clothes for an entire year despite having a full wardrobe and a fully working washing machine and a years supply of Ariel tablets. If you refuse to do anything about you sin, its akin to not accepting it is there in the first place and that is just stupid and ignorent (see point 1)


Again, you have to agree that what is defined by Christians as a sin is bad. Do I agree murder is bad? Usually. Do I agree that lesbian sex parties are bad? Nuh uh. Unless I'm not invited...


Works are not a part of salvation itself. You do not have to do X ammount of Y quality good deeds to get into heaven and not do Z ammount of R quality bad things. Here is why. The only way to get into heaven by works is to live the life of Jesus exactly, to the letter and no more. Since no human can do that, God sent Jesus to deal with this problem.


Does that mean that those lizards that can run across water are going to heaven?


*(Note at this point, many people point to the fact there are many people who will have never heard of Jesus or how God dealt with sin through him. But you do not have to have a detailed understanding of the method of how God saves us via Jesus. If anything, if you dont understand you have a greater faith. All you need to know is that God can save you and he is willing to)

Of course, the moment you read the bible, you'll find out that God's a creepy rat bastard who'd be arrested in almost any modern country.

I never said such a thing. I simply said that it is impossible for someone to live a life without ever committing a sin. Which is what you claimed is indeed possible. You have so far failed to prove it, whereas Ive proved that regardless of age, you cannot live a life free from sin.
So are you a believer in original sin? How can you sin when you don’t understand the concept of sin?

If so leads back to the just god argument (not to mention free will … if you are judged before your ability to freely decide (which means understanding repercussions of your actions) is it really free will? And if no free will how can you sin? Which really boils down to a willful disregard for gods rules )

So are you a believer in original sin? How can you sin when you don’t understand the concept of sin?

If so leads back to the just god argument (not to mention free will … if you are judged before your ability to freely decide (which means understanding repercussions of your actions) is it really free will? And if no free will how can you sin? Which really boils down to a willful disregard for gods rules )

Original sin has nothing to do with this discussion. Your assertion, which you have failed to prove, is that someone can live free from sin. You do not need to understand the workings of sin to know that it is sin. You can know something is bad without fully understanding why. Fully understanding something is not a prequisite to knowing whether it is good or bad. It is also not a prequisite for suffering the consequences.

For example, I can understand that I should not stick a metal object in a light socket because it is dangerous. I dont need to understand the physics behind it to know that it is dangerous. As I get older I can learn to understand how electricity works and why I was always taught that sticking objects into light sockets was dangerous. But the lack of understanding the inner workings does not change the fact that I was properly warned and that if I stick a pen into the light socket I will be shocked regardless of whether I fully understand why yet or not.

You can sin without fully understanding the concept of sin, just like you can get shocked by sticking something in a light socket without fully understanding why. It is enough to know that you shouldnt do it.

a good being must believe in justise and not vengence.clearly eternal punishments for small temporary crimes are not just.nor is oblivion(which is worse by far).

thus,god is either
A.no better than humanity
B.not going to punish you eternal for being an idiot.espilly considering he made us such big idiots.

I think original sin is basically just another way of saying "a predisposition for humans to do wrong/make mistakes", which I think is true. We have the capability for good, too, but there's no denying that everyone makes mistakes and has the capacity to do evil and harm.

Saying that, the fact that we're punished for being the way we're made, for following our own nature, for being human and having this tendency does kinda suck eggs.

Original sin has nothing to do with this discussion. Your assertion, which you have failed to prove, is that someone can live free from sin. You do not need to understand the workings of sin to know that it is sin. You can know something is bad without fully understanding why. Fully understanding something is not a prequisite to knowing whether it is good or bad. It is also not a prequisite for suffering the consequences.

But if you are too young to even understand the concept of good and bad ?

For example, I can understand that I should not stick a metal object in a light socket because it is dangerous. I dont need to understand the physics behind it to know that it is dangerous. As I get older I can learn to understand how electricity works and why I was always taught that sticking objects into light sockets was dangerous. But the lack of understanding the inner workings does not change the fact that I was properly warned and that if I stick a pen into the light socket I will be shocked regardless of whether I fully understand why yet or not.

You can sin without fully understanding the concept of sin, just like you can get shocked by sticking something in a light socket without fully understanding why. It is enough to know that you shouldnt do it.

But you are coming with a background of comparison (this same argument can be used for if Adam really could have made a competent decision when it came to the apple)

You know what the consequences for sticking a metal object in is … not only that have comparisons like what pain is to start with


Saying someone who does not know what sin good or bad is , is more like comparing the light socket analogy but without you knowing what pain is … or a light socket … or understanding that the causal relationship between the not understood light socket and the not understood pain

(by the way I was NOT arguing that you could live a life without sin … I was arguing that it was silly to think of any rules that apply to people as such … who could call such a god just)

Concerning one of the original points of this post from Neo Cannen:

"2) If you believe that you can deal with it yourself then you are still immatrue and arrogent, believeing that you can somehow redeem yourself by being good enough for God by your achivements. While your achievements now may be great, they do not remove any previous sins you have done. You cannot remove sins of your own power."

It doesnt make them immature or arrogant, just spiritually blind. God has not called that person to him as yet through the Holy Spirit.

...
(by the way I was NOT arguing that you could live a life without sin … I was arguing that it was silly to think of any rules that apply to people as such … who could call such a god just)

Then it sounds like you joined in the wrong discussion. My discussion with Troon was only about how it is impossible to live a life free from sin. He claimed it was possible, I proved it wasnt. Your discussion about God and what constitutes justice is a whole nother topic, and one Im not getting into at this time.

Then it sounds like you joined in the wrong discussion. My discussion with Troon was only about how it is impossible to live a life free from sin. He claimed it was possible, I proved it wasnt. Your discussion about God and what constitutes justice is a whole nother topic, and one Im not getting into at this time.

Did I claim so? To be honest, I can't remember exactly, nor can I be bothered to go back and check, but what I recall is that I merely supposed it was possible. What I was actually trying to establish was whether the original poster was referring to us sinning via the Original Sin, which I totally disagree with.

Meh.

Then it sounds like you joined in the wrong discussion. My discussion with Troon was only about how it is impossible to live a life free from sin. He claimed it was possible, I proved it wasnt. Your discussion about God and what constitutes justice is a whole nother topic, and one Im not getting into at this time.
I understand that you dont want to cover that part ... thats fine

But simplify how can you sin if you dont know what right and wrong is nor what is sin?

(though to be fair I am taking sin as knowingly disobeying god) I suppose unknowingly

Woah...

I guess that means only the People of the Book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book) are saved!

Of course, that includes three of the worlds major religions(Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), so about half the world is safe.

I understand that you dont want to cover that part ... thats fine

But simplify how can you sin if you dont know what right and wrong is nor what is sin?

(though to be fair I am taking sin as knowingly disobeying god) I suppose unknowingly

You cannot. but a child learns the concept of right and wrong by age 4. So that isnt a very big window

But according to Post #1, self-reliance and personal accountability are "arrogant" and "immature".

Its not "Self reliance" and "Personal responsablitity" I am talking about the idea of belief in self morality. If you believe you have never done anything wrong then you are being arrogent and immature.

You cannot. but a child learns the concept of right and wrong by age 4. So that isnt a very big window
Never argued it was big ... just that it is possible (though there are a lot of younger kids that die every day)

Have we gotten to the part where Christian Salvation is explained as the elaborate revenge fantasy of the meek?

Have we gotten to the part where Christian Salvation is explained as the elaborate revenge fantasy of the meek?
MRS. BIG NOSE: Oh, it's the meek! Blessed are the meek! Oh, that's nice,
isn't it? I'm glad they're getting something, 'cause they have a hell
of a time.

and


REG: Yeah. Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the
meek who are the problem.
JUDITH: Yes, yes. Absolutely, Reg. Yes, I see.

It is all very interesting to say that you must accept the following to be accepted by God:

1- That you have sinned/done wrong/been bad etc
2- That you cannot deal with the implications of said sins yourself
3- That you need a power beyond your understanding (God) to deal with it
4- That there is a God beyond your understanding who wants to and can deal with it.*
5- Having accepted that you are in the wrong (sinned) you need to do something about it.

The truth is that to be accepted by God requires more than mere faith, despite your (assumedly) Protestant stance:

'Works are not a part of salvation itself. You do not have to do X ammount of Y quality good deeds to get into heaven and not do Z ammount of R quality bad things. Here is why. The only way to get into heaven by works is to live the life of Jesus exactly, to the letter and no more. Since no human can do that, God sent Jesus to deal with this problem.'

I now turn your attention to:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.

Luke 10:27-28
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

and last but not least...

James 2:14-17
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Neo Cannen, I suggest you read your Bible more carefully if you wish to trumpet it as a moral code for anyone other than yourself. :rolleyes: