NationStates Jolt Archive

I'll preface this by saying I am in no way being facetious or confrontational, nor asking to be coddled. I want honest answers from people.

I've waffle between atheism, agnosticism and theism on a fairly regular basis for the past I don't know how many years. I gave up on organised religion quite a while ago because I was raised Catholic but there were too many things I just couldn't swallow, like how women are prescribed to different roles than men simply because of gender, or why, bizarrely, Catholics, if they are indeed followers of the 'one true religion', are actually held to higher standards of behaviour than non-Catholics, because the rules are so strict. (For example, some Protestants are not required to attend Church every Sunday and still would get into heaven, whereas it's considered a mortal sin for Catholics not to attend Mass every week, and mortal sins mean automatic Hell unless you go to Confession and never do it again.)

I know with my logical mind that there is no empirical proof for God, although I suppose anything is possible. If I do believe in God it's not because I have proof or think there can ever really be any; part of the nature of God would be improvability, I should think, if it were really incredibly obvious then faith wouldn't have any meaning. But I think I do still cling to some belief because I've always felt this need for there to be some great Truth, a reason, a purpose, a meaning in life. Ever since I was young I'd go round telling people I was "pondering the mysteries of the universe" (in those words, no wonder the other kids hated me! :p ) and I still do find myself thinking that if I think hard enough, look hard enough, whatever, I'll discover some great ultimate reality.

So my question is, if life actually has no purpose, if there is nothing more than mortal human life, how do you make yourself get up in the morning, kind of thing? What motivates you to try to be a good person or do anything, really, if none of it matters? Is it just to get as much pleasure or enjoyment or happiness as you can? And how do you deal with the innate human fear of death as the great unknown? How do you prepare yourself for the rather terrifying prospect of just not existing anymore? (Not that hell or heaven is less terrifying, mind you - I'm equally terrified of the existence and the non-existence of an afterlife.) I'm scared of everything, all the time, and I don't want to be. Even if all my feelings of needing to search and find Truth or they key that will make life make sense has been misguided, I still want to be able to face that and not be afraid or so apathetic that I literally waste away. What do I do?

What motivates me? The knowledge that I, at least, am right.

So my question is, if life actually has no purpose, if there is nothing more than mortal human life,

there's your problem. saying "there is no God, and this one mortal life is all we have" does not in any way equate to believing that life has no purpose. that's a common mistake.

how do you make yourself get up in the morning, kind of thing? What motivates you to try to be a good person or do anything, really, if none of it matters?

i care. i like people, i feel good being nice to people, and i like myself better when i am a kind, intelligent, responsible person.

i don't understand how people who base their morality on carrot-and-stick theology can look at themselves in the mirror. being good simply to get into Heaven or avoid Hell is pathetic...if you only are good to get a reward then you have the morality of a 4 year old (literally), and it's certainly nothing to be proud of.


Is it just to get as much pleasure or enjoyment or happiness as you can?

yes, essentially. bettering myself, improving the world, and helping those i love all give me great pleasure and happiness. i also enjoy videogames.


And how do you deal with the innate human fear of death as the great unknown?

i have long since come to terms with the finite nature of my own life, and i do not fear it at all. there are a great many things i do not know, and that's okay with me...i will learn everything i can, but i realize i will never know everything. i don't mind that.


How do you prepare yourself for the rather terrifying prospect of just not existing anymore?

i am not terrified of that prospect.


I'm scared of everything, all the time, and I don't want to be. Even if all my feelings of needing to search and find Truth or they key that will make life make sense has been misguided, I still want to be able to face that and not be afraid or so apathetic that I literally waste away. What do I do?
honestly, not being sarcastic, you might want to try counciling. not just "go to a shrink, get drugged, feel better," but find a person who is qualified to help you analyze and evaluate your feelings. if you have feelings that you feel you cannot control, or if you feel that your life is impeded by feelings you don't want, then a clinical therapist might be able to help you figure out the root causes of these problems...they won't wave a magic wand and make you all better, but they might be able to give you some ideas of how to address these problems.

Here's my lazy answer that I generally agree with from the Angel tv series:


Kate: "If I'm not part of the force it's like nothing I do means anything."

Angel: "It doesn't."

Kate: "Doesn't what?"

Angel: "Mean anything. In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win."

Kate: "You seem kind of chipper about that."

Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."

Kate: "And now you do?"

Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."

Im an atheist and you pretty much answered it for me, im going to die, so I better do everything I want while I can, do as much as possible in the short time I have.


I put the question to you if you believe in an after life in which you are eternal why do you bother with this life? You have all the time you want, why strive to do now what you could do later?

Here's my lazy answer that I generally agree with from the Angel tv series:


Kate: "If I'm not part of the force it's like nothing I do means anything."

Angel: "It doesn't."

Kate: "Doesn't what?"

Angel: "Mean anything. In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win."

Kate: "You seem kind of chipper about that."

Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."

Kate: "And now you do?"

Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."
i like that show :).

there's your problem. saying "there is no God, and this one mortal life is all we have" does not in any way equate to believing that life has no purpose. that's a common mistake.

i care. i like people, i feel good being nice to people, and i like myself better when i am a kind, intelligent, responsible person.

i don't understand how people who base their morality on carrot-and-stick theology can look at themselves in the mirror. being good simply to get into Heaven or avoid Hell is pathetic...if you only are good to get a reward then you have the morality of a 4 year old (literally), and it's certainly nothing to be proud of.


yes, essentially. bettering myself, improving the world, and helping those i love all give me great pleasure and happiness. i also enjoy videogames.


i have long since come to terms with the finite nature of my own life, and i do not fear it at all. there are a great many things i do not know, and that's okay with me...i will learn everything i can, but i realize i will never know everything. i don't mind that.


i am not terrified of that prospect.


honestly, not being sarcastic, you might want to try counciling. not just "go to a shrink, get drugged, feel better," but find a person who is qualified to help you analyze and evaluate your feelings. if you have feelings that you feel you cannot control, or if you feel that your life is impeded by feelings you don't want, then a clinical therapist might be able to help you figure out the root causes of these problems...they won't wave a magic wand and make you all better, but they might be able to give you some ideas of how to address these problems.
^^^ignore what I said, as usual she said it better^^^

i like that show :).
angel and buffy rock, I was even better because I was the relevant age, so the show(s) grew with me :)

I consider myself to be weakly-atheist/sceptically-agnostic and my primary motivation is...

...inertia.

Not my only motivation, and you could argue I'm in the job I'm in through pursuing that career, but when seen through certain eyes you can consider all motivations to essentially be inertia modified by external forces.

Even belief or non-belief in religion is inertial. If you 'drift' into (or out of) a religion, it's because there's a small net push on you to do so, if you suddenly switch deitic allegances (or move in/out of the whole religion thing) I think you'll find that there's some cause ("crisis of faith", "road to damascus" or whatever).


However, that puts it all into too much of a downbeat mood. If you ask me to define the forces other than inertia, you'll get me listing things like the will to know things, a wish to help people and over all to leave behind me (when I finally go to oblivion, if that is the case) at least the basics of a legacy of sorts...

If you ask me to define the forces other than inertia, you'll get me listing things like the will to know things, a wish to help people and over all to leave behind me (when I finally go to oblivion, if that is the case) at least the basics of a legacy of sorts...Ouch, that looks so sacharin sweet... My apologies.

So my question is, if life actually has no purpose, if there is nothing more than mortal human life, how do you make yourself get up in the morning, kind of thing? What motivates you to try to be a good person or do anything, really, if none of it matters? Is it just to get as much pleasure or enjoyment or happiness as you can? And how do you deal with the innate human fear of death as the great unknown? How do you prepare yourself for the rather terrifying prospect of just not existing anymore? What do I do?
ok im not an nihilist (but leaning that way...eek) but am an athiest

how do you make yourself get up in the morning?
i kind of don't. i'd rather just stay there all day but generally get up early afternoon because my housemates take the piss for being 'lazy'. truth is i just don't care about anything so what's the point in getting up?

What motivates you to try to be a good person or do anything, really, if none of it matters?
i try to be a good person because of the old 'do unto others...' credo. i may not care about myself but those around me deserve to be treated well and properly (i try not to be an asshole). i try to to good by others, for others.
as for motivation to do *anything*, i don't really have any. i never get anything done until the last minute when the pangs of guilt and anxiety are felt - though this is less for me and more for my parents who are graciously paying for my uni education. i don't want to let them down.

Is it just to get as much pleasure or enjoyment or happiness as you can?
depends if its at the expense of others' enjoyment or happiness. if not then sure. few things give me much enjoyment or pleasure nowadays so its a tough question...

how do you deal with the innate human fear of death as the great unknown?
i feel that i'm going to die eventually, just like everything and everyone else. its inevitable, why fear it? my life has no meaning or even any impact on the large scale so who cares? one's actions do still have impact on others in the short run, of course, (day by day for eg) and this is why i try to live for others.

How do you prepare yourself for the rather terrifying prospect of just not existing anymore?
it'll happen. i won't exist and there'll be nothing i can do about it - hell, i won't even be aware of my non-existance... because i wont exist. no point in fearing it. i have no fear of death, but i do have a great fear of pain (no painful deaths please).

What do I do?
my advice: i often think about what you are going through, in the same ways, but i've thought long and hard enough to come up with my own answers - answers to these questions that fit me. so you could either just keep pondering these questions, like i have (and still do) and come up with answers, or keep pondering and not care about the concequences or what it all means (like i also do ;) - its just words & ideas after all), or you could stop thinking about this sort of thing all together (boo!)

So my question is, if life actually has no purpose, if there is nothing more than mortal human life, how do you make yourself get up in the morning, kind of thing? What motivates you to try to be a good person or do anything, really, if none of it matters?

I'm agnostic, and the key is to just not give a damn. I seek to make my family happy as life is worth living for them.

Is it just to get as much pleasure or enjoyment or happiness as you can?

Well I plan to have sex a few times... yes.

And how do you deal with the innate human fear of death as the great unknown? How do you prepare yourself for the rather terrifying prospect of just not existing anymore?

Embrace it. It is the cycle of life, somthing that happens to us all. Besides, if nothing lasts forever, that means even death may die eh?

I'm scared of everything, all the time, and I don't want to be. Even if all my feelings of needing to search and find Truth or they key that will make life make sense has been misguided, I still want to be able to face that and not be afraid or so apathetic that I literally waste away. What do I do?

Do what I did. See a Psychiatrist. Or like I did, adopt a carefree life. Of course I'm also struggling with Depression and OCD right now, but still at least I have no fear.

Sounds to me like a teen crisis. I went through it too.

How do I keep going, day by day, without something more to believe in?

I think you're limiting yourself a little. I don't believe in any god, though it's not much a hatred of any theology as a lack of caring in any sort of god-based spirituality.

In the end, I believe in myself and those that I love. I don't look to scripture or holy men to tell me what something means, I learn it for myself (regarding love and other things).

This kind of makes me an information whore, just wanting to KNOW things, to understand them and myself and how the world works.

In your case, however, I can tell you - Been there, done that. Catholic upbringing, to the point where my parents made me get confirmed, even though my priest told me if I was questioning, I didn't have to. Went to Catholic schools all my life, until now (University). After grade 8... I didn't believe any of it.

I don't think you need to reject God just because you disagree with the way that the Catholic Church is run. There are a number of options - look at other faiths and see if any of them appeal to your beliefs, or believe your own message. Nothing wrong with believing in God, in my opinion - I think everyone needs something to believe in (I just don't think it has to be God).

And when it comes to the empirical stuff... I wouldn't worry about that. It's like the Kyoto debate. Both sides can dredge up facts to support their position. Make your own choice based on what you believe, and go from there.

You raise a question I encounter in theology class quite often (I go to a Catholic college): What is the hope of Atheism?
Actually, I think atheism is the more hopeful position. Whereas theism says that joy, love, and everything good were God's creations, atheism says that man created these things. Whereas theism says that a good person is motivated by God, atheism says that it is that person's natural goodness that motivates him or her. Finally, while theism says that we will be with God, atheism says that we will be gods. The destiny of humanity, according to atheism, is to be the greatest thing that has ever existed. I believe that this is a more hopeful position than theism.

So my question is, if life actually has no purpose, if there is nothing more than mortal human life, how do you make yourself get up in the morning, kind of thing?

Just my personal thinking, but if you believe that after you die, you cease to exist, wouldn't you want to make the most of the short time that you have here? You would think that those people would be more apt to make the most of thier time than people that believe in an afterlife.

I'm motavited to get up by the fact that i know what I want to do in life. I think if believed that God was in control or something, then i wouldn't want to get up cause i'd feel like i didn't have a point. But since i know this is all my life, i can do what i aim to do.

Oh, as for the Catholic theology you question, it isn't that inconsistent. Catholic theology holds that being catholic makes it no easier or more difficult to get into heaven; when priests or Catechism teachers say otherwise, this is to motivate you. However, the Catholic position is that their religion does not make them more or less holy, just more correct.
But like you said, it would be better if they could prove it.

Learning and Love.

But I think I do still cling to some belief because I've always felt this need for there to be some great Truth, a reason, a purpose, a meaning in life. Ever since I was young I'd go round telling people I was "pondering the mysteries of the universe" (in those words, no wonder the other kids hated me! :p ) and I still do find myself thinking that if I think hard enough, look hard enough, whatever, I'll discover some great ultimate reality.

So my question is, if life actually has no purpose, if there is nothing more than mortal human life, how do you make yourself get up in the morning, kind of thing? What motivates you to try to be a good person or do anything, really, if none of it matters? Is it just to get as much pleasure or enjoyment or happiness as you can? And how do you deal with the innate human fear of death as the great unknown? How do you prepare yourself for the rather terrifying prospect of just not existing anymore? (Not that hell or heaven is less terrifying, mind you - I'm equally terrified of the existence and the non-existence of an afterlife.) I'm scared of everything, all the time, and I don't want to be. Even if all my feelings of needing to search and find Truth or they key that will make life make sense has been misguided, I still want to be able to face that and not be afraid or so apathetic that I literally waste away. What do I do?

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the thought process that gave birth to religion...

Humans have struggles with those thoughts for as long as we could think them up... And religion was devised to make us feel better about these "problems"...

As for me, my answer is the same as the others thus far...

The purpose of life is...LIFE! It needs nothing else... Live for the sake of living and play by the accepted rules to make your life, and that of those around you, easier...

The inevitability of my own non-existance doesn't bother me in the least... After all, I won't be around anymore for it to bother me...lol

In fact, although I can't speak for all of us, I'd say that for us atheists, we're just as confused as to why some people require a purpose, as those people are confused that we don't require one...

Very interesting topic.

Fact: Everything we know is a product of human experience, observing, imagining, learning and communicating.

If you think about this and accept it you'll realise it answers all the tricky questions.

Is there a God? Heaven? Reincarnation? Look to previous fact, there's no evidence of any of this because it's all a figment of the human imagination. (If you show me someone who has experienced a divine intervention, I'll show you someone who needs locking up).

So how do I motivate myself and deal with it? The same as everyone else! Just ignore it. That's all religion does, it helps you to ignore the fact that we are all just cosmic dust and our entire lifes work will be lost in the entropic Universe before long.

Have long term plans and short term projects. Always have something to look forward to. Find someone to love and you won't go far wrong.

So my question is, if life actually has no purpose, if there is nothing more than mortal human life, how do you make yourself get up in the morning, kind of thing? What motivates you to try to be a good person or do anything, really, if none of it matters? Is it just to get as much pleasure or enjoyment or happiness as you can? And how do you deal with the innate human fear of death as the great unknown? How do you prepare yourself for the rather terrifying prospect of just not existing anymore? (Not that hell or heaven is less terrifying, mind you - I'm equally terrified of the existence and the non-existence of an afterlife.) I'm scared of everything, all the time, and I don't want to be. Even if all my feelings of needing to search and find Truth or they key that will make life make sense has been misguided, I still want to be able to face that and not be afraid or so apathetic that I literally waste away. What do I do?

Well you don't want to be coddled, nor do you wish to confront...I suppose I'll extend the same courtesy to you. I have no wish to bore you with my own life story, so I'll tell you a piece of marvelous fiction, the main character is Darrill, which is not my own name. ;)

Darrill was raised in a family with a strong religious background, but no religion. Mother raised Catholic, Father Protestant, both simply found non-religion; they simply didn't believe anymore. When they married and moved west, they were active in the community, but not through the churches.

All that happened long before Darrill was born, so until the time he had reached age 9 or so, he had no real clue why he was the only one free on Sunday mornings! His friends had Crucifixes and Buddah statues, they wore headscarves and skull caps, he made friends with anyone who didn't mind spending time with someone who didn't share their faith.

Darrill went through brief periods of debating religions throughout his early teens, but he figured out early on that he was merely debating to reaffirm his own beliefs and truths as valid. Darrill really had no wish to convert others; his own beliefs came from a deep feeling of wholeness, completeness. He needed nothing more than what he had to have faith fill his soul.

So many of the people Darrill talked to in his life say they feel incomplete, sometimes despite their faith, othertimes because of their lack of it. For him, it was incomprehensible at first. To hear the words, "I just don't know what to do without god in my life." Just left Darrill speechless, he blinked in confusion, thinking to himself, "I had no god in my life, I knew just what to do, when, and with whom." It took him years to even begin to understand what they were describing; a hole in the soul; it sounds cheesy 'cause it rhymes, but its true. These people are talking about a sense of incompleteness in their own being.

Darrill had faith in himself. Darrill also had faith in humanity as a whole; not to be good and just and pure, nor to be cruel and mean and decietful. Darrill felt that humanity would act like humanity, cruel and kind on the same day, kicking puppies and feeding stray cats, all in the same day. It was this fickle nature of humanity that infused Darrill with a sense of ordered chaos, a world that made unpredictablity as constant as predicatblility.

So Darrill was happy throughout his youth, happy with himself, happy that he had some grasp, some sense of the world around him. He felt sorry for those who had lost faith in whatever religion they had, he supported all religions as being equal in theory. He wished dearly that those who had lost faith in their world view could find grounding and become happy once again, but he could offer them little solace. He was not a religious man, nor could he instill faith in others; he had no desire to meddle in other's affairs.

Even when those he loved had crisisies of faith, he could do little but comfort them. He offered no real alternatives, for his faith was personal, it had no effect on others, the void in his soul was filled by his faith but it could not fit the void in another's.

The fact that as a species, we have accomplished much that is both good and evil.

We have developed a "civilisation" that cares for and looks after each other....as well as one that is self destructive.

We have developed codes of behaviour based on many spiritual and political philosophies.

If you look at the trend of human existance, then it's an upward curve for things to get better.

We have much still to do, we need to examine our primal and spiritual concepts everyday. We all live lives that are inconsistent with our natures. If we are to survive as a species, without destroying ourselves and the world we live in, it's clear that we still need much more development before we can fit in with all the other species we share this planet with.

This is a general need for the human species, on a personal level, it's neccessary for everyone of us, not only to love and laugh but to seek to make the world we live in a better place during our life. This means effort from everyone.

Them responsibility for us as individuals is to learn, experience, improve and support each other. That to me, is a more meaningful role in life than attending some supersticious weekly affirmation of faith in decaying spiritual philosophies.

I am an athiest, I have a sense of wonder for the world we live in but I'm not blindfolded and shackled by hypocritical notions of morality that are imposed upon us by established religious doctrines. I can say this because I was brouoght up as a catholic but have long since rejected what I consider hypocrisy and cant.

I've waffle between atheism, agnosticism and theism on a fairly regular basis for the past I don't know how many years. I gave up on organised religion quite a while ago because I was raised Catholic but there were too many things I just couldn't swallow, like how women are prescribed to different roles than men simply because of gender, or why, bizarrely, Catholics, if they are indeed followers of the 'one true religion', are actually held to higher standards of behaviour than non-Catholics, because the rules are so strict. (For example, some Protestants are not required to attend Church every Sunday and still would get into heaven, whereas it's considered a mortal sin for Catholics not to attend Mass every week, and mortal sins mean automatic Hell unless you go to Confession and never do it again.)


It must have been a long time since you've been a Catholic, because you a pretty off. The issue of sexual discrimination has less to do with the religion and more with the culture. Jesus rejected all ideas of discrimination and separeation between people, however since Catholicism was adopted by a Male-dominated society, they added/ignored policies to go with their worldview. The same thing happened with Islam, Muhammed wanted to reform ancient arabic society, but in the end some sects just added their own "rules" and called it "fundamentalist." As modern culture becomes more fair towards women, the Cathlic church's policies change to reflect that.
It's not easy to preform a Mortal Sin in Catholicism. Puritans probably believed missing church=Hell, but they were extreme Protestants. A Mortal sin requires something like an embracement of a Deadly Sin, or major rejection of a commandment, all for the purpose of hurting God or another person. That basically leaves you with Murder, Rape, Kidnapping, Torture, Betrayal and not too much else. Even a seriously bad action is not considered Mortal unless you had the intention to cause harm and you yourself believed it to be evil. The rest of our sins are Venial, which some get forgiven every time you take communion and the rest can be absolved just by going through Confession even without recalling them. Even if you got some Venial sins left over when you die, say you are sorry to God/Peter and just spend a few time units in Purgatory. Truth be told, Catholicism has a bunch of cases where you can miss Church without any sin at all: Travelers' Dispensation, Health Dispensation, and others.

I hope the atheists don't find the above overly silly, but there's no point to rejecting religion because you have mistaken views on its beliefs.

My motivation is that my kids must eat and stay warm and dry.

What Bottle said. Minus the counselling part.

I am an atheist but not a nihilist.

I am motivated by the desire to enjoy my life, to do exciting and pleasurable and joyful things.

I'm motivated by the need to see what happens today, what I can learn and what I can do that'll bring some satisfaction. And in the end, be able to look back and say "that was an interesting ride".

Wow lots to respond to here! Thanks for all the input, by the way. :)

there's your problem. saying "there is no God, and this one mortal life is all we have" does not in any way equate to believing that life has no purpose. that's a common mistake.

Hmm well that's not exactly what I meant, although I take your point. I was meaning it more generally, that life without some kind of spiritual or metaphysical element would seem to be lacking, but your point still stands.

honestly, not being sarcastic, you might want to try counciling. not just "go to a shrink, get drugged, feel better," but find a person who is qualified to help you analyze and evaluate your feelings. if you have feelings that you feel you cannot control, or if you feel that your life is impeded by feelings you don't want, then a clinical therapist might be able to help you figure out the root causes of these problems...they won't wave a magic wand and make you all better, but they might be able to give you some ideas of how to address these problems.

I've seen about...hmm let's think...6? 7? therapists in the last 12 years and been on anti-depressants for the same length of time. So far, none of it has really helped the underlying problem. I don't know if there's enough hours in my life for all the therapy I'd need. :(

Do what I did. See a Psychiatrist. Or like I did, adopt a carefree life. Of course I'm also struggling with Depression and OCD right now, but still at least I have no fear.

Sounds to me like a teen crisis. I went through it too.

See above. And I hope it's not a teen crisis as I'm 27, although it's not the first time recently people have thought this... :eek:

Just my personal thinking, but if you believe that after you die, you cease to exist, wouldn't you want to make the most of the short time that you have here? You would think that those people would be more apt to make the most of thier time than people that believe in an afterlife.

Yeah I do think of that, I guess I'm just torn between the "If this is it I've got to take life by the horns and live a carpe diem kind of life" and the "It doesn't make a difference what the heck I do, on a cosmic scale, so I'd just as soon be dead and not have to deal with life's petty problems" thing. As Pure Metal says, it's inertia.

You raise a question I encounter in theology class quite often (I go to a Catholic college): What is the hope of Atheism?
Actually, I think atheism is the more hopeful position. Whereas theism says that joy, love, and everything good were God's creations, atheism says that man created these things. Whereas theism says that a good person is motivated by God, atheism says that it is that person's natural goodness that motivates him or her. Finally, while theism says that we will be with God, atheism says that we will be gods. The destiny of humanity, according to atheism, is to be the greatest thing that has ever existed. I believe that this is a more hopeful position than theism.

Hmm that is very interesting and you're right, it is hopeful. My only problem there is that I'm hopelessly cynical and tend to see the evil in the world a lot more easily than the good.

So many of the people Darrill talked to in his life say they feel incomplete, sometimes despite their faith, othertimes because of their lack of it. For him, it was incomprehensible at first. To hear the words, "I just don't know what to do without god in my life." Just left Darrill speechless, he blinked in confusion, thinking to himself, "I had no god in my life, I knew just what to do, when, and with whom." It took him years to even begin to understand what they were describing; a hole in the soul; it sounds cheesy 'cause it rhymes, but its true. These people are talking about a sense of incompleteness in their own being.

Yes, that's it exactly - I always feel like something is missing in my life and I can never figure out what it is. Because of how I was raised I always hear that little voice saying, "It's God, you'd be happy and complete and content and at peace if you believed in God" but I just don't know if that's true or not. And I don't know that I can take that leap of faith anymore and believe it without knowing rationally that it's true, and yet at the same time I don't think it's really possible to rationally or empirically prove that there is a God.

It must have been a long time since you've been a Catholic, because you a pretty off. The issue of sexual discrimination has less to do with the religion and more with the culture. Jesus rejected all ideas of discrimination and separeation between people, however since Catholicism was adopted by a Male-dominated society, they added/ignored policies to go with their worldview. The same thing happened with Islam, Muhammed wanted to reform ancient arabic society, but in the end some sects just added their own "rules" and called it "fundamentalist." As modern culture becomes more fair towards women, the Cathlic church's policies change to reflect that.

I would agree that Catholicism and Christianity, like many things, did indeed start off with good intentions and get distracted by power and money and things along the way. Part of the reason I had problems with Catholicism though is that there does seem to be an underlying unwillingness (or at least a profound slowness) to change certain key values, such as the role of women. I used to argue with my mother about this all the time, and what it seemed to boil down to, to me, was that "Women can't be priests because none of the Apostles were female and they were the first priests", and "If God wanted women to be priests he would tell the Pope to tell everyone that it's ok now, and he hasn't", which doesn't...well, "God says so" or "God doesn't say so" isn't really a concrete proof, to my mind. If this does eventually change, that's great, but until then I don't think I can really call myself Catholic. (Even apart from the whole being semi-atheist thing!)

Further, the idea that women should be submissive, in some way or another, to their husband, still exists even though "obey" has been taken out of wedding vows. Again, my mother (who is quite knowledgeable on orthodox Catholic doctrine, I should add - she reads all kinds of encyclicals and things) told me that wives are meant to 'submit' in the sense that the husband should be the head of the household, the final arbiter of all decisions and conflicts, and that a woman's role is to support her husband and be the one to give in or compromise if there's any compromising to be done. Me, I don't buy that - a marriage should be as equal a partnership between people as is humanly possible. I don't want my husband to always have his way in a disagreement just because he's the one with testicles in the relationship, and neither does he - and I would never have married anyone who felt that way! My sister still feels that it is somewhat unseemly for a woman to ask a man out, and that "if a guy doesn't have the strength and courage to ask me on a date then how is he going to have the strength and courage to support me in our life together?" She makes me completely irate when she says things like this (she's still devoutly Catholic), and believes that men are naturally better at making decisions because they don't make decisions based on their emotions, and decisions based on emotions rather than God's will are always bad. Pretty much everything she thinks and feels and believes and does is coloured by, if not directly a result of, all the Catholic stuff she's been taught from kindergarten all the way through university, and that has soured me.

It's not easy to preform a Mortal Sin in Catholicism. Puritans probably believed missing church=Hell, but they were extreme Protestants. A Mortal sin requires something like an embracement of a Deadly Sin, or major rejection of a commandment, all for the purpose of hurting God or another person. That basically leaves you with Murder, Rape, Kidnapping, Torture, Betrayal and not too much else. Even a seriously bad action is not considered Mortal unless you had the intention to cause harm and you yourself believed it to be evil. The rest of our sins are Venial, which some get forgiven every time you take communion and the rest can be absolved just by going through Confession even without recalling them. Even if you got some Venial sins left over when you die, say you are sorry to God/Peter and just spend a few time units in Purgatory. Truth be told, Catholicism has a bunch of cases where you can miss Church without any sin at all: Travelers' Dispensation, Health Dispensation, and others.

Apart from the dispensations for travelling and sickness and so forth, that's not what I was taught at all. I've asked priests about this, about how not attending church is somehow equally immoral to committing a murder, and was told that a Mortal Sin is a sin which completely breaks off your connection with God in some way. Regularly missing Mass means you are not receiving the Eucharist and the communion with other Catholics and so on, it's missing out on an integral part of one's spiritual life and communication with God, so your tie to him is severed, e.g. it is a Mortal Sin.

Sorry to have gotten a bit off-topic with this but I wanted to clear that up. And I guess part of the reason I took such relatively "small" issues with the Church so hard is that it's always been made very clear to me that the Church does not tolerate or welcome "Salad-Bar Catholics" who pick and choose which bits they want to believe. I figured, well, I can't in good conscience support or believe things like wives having to be submissive to their husbands, or married, monogamous couples not being permitted to use contraception, so if that makes me no longer a good Catholic then so be it. I'd rather go to hell than be a hypocrite (probably....)

I've always noticed that the Bible seems to contradict itself in parts and can be really confusing, but what actually made me really genuinely doubt the existence of God for the first time was a book I read called "The Science of Discworld", several years after I had lapsed as a Catholic. I was never a creationist, I've always accepted evolution and the Big Bang and things, but for some reason the book really brought home to me that in fact it was entirely possible for the universe to have existed and so forth without any supernatural intervention - that there could very well be an "uncaused cause". When I accepted that as a possibility, it sort of knocked the bottom out of everything I had accepted as true and unshakeable up to that point, and since then I just can't seem to get past the doubt, and any time I seem to get closer to having faith I hear myself think, "This is just what you want to believe, but it isn't the truth."

Anyway, sorry for this insanely long post! But thanks for contributing your ideas. :)

Hmm well that's not exactly what I meant, although I take your point. I was meaning it more generally, that life without some kind of spiritual or metaphysical element would seem to be lacking, but your point still stands.

i have never found it so, but obviously there are many people who feel their lives are incomplete without spirituality or religion.

I've seen about...hmm let's think...6? 7? therapists in the last 12 years and been on anti-depressants for the same length of time. So far, none of it has really helped the underlying problem. I don't know if there's enough hours in my life for all the therapy I'd need. :(

drat, that's bummer. i hope you weren't insulted by my suggestion, i wasn't trying to say you are nuts or "need help" in a nasty way, i just know that i used to have feelings i felt i couldn't control and i was lucky enough to get a fabulous therapist who has helped me with them. it's certainly not a perfect fix, and it's taken years, but i am so happy with the results that i always recommend people at least give it a shot.

however, if you have tried both talk therapy and medication and still have these issues, then that's a real stumper. it probably does boil down to a philosophical or "spiritual" need that you have to resolve for yourself, and (sadly) it's unlikely anybody is going to be able to help you with it. the best answer that i, or anybody, could give you is that you should find the best way to meet the needs you are experiencing, and you should base your beliefs and values on what satisfies YOU. if you simply cannot find a way to be happy without belief in God then you should believe in God, as long as you are honest with yourself about why you believe.

i have never found it so, but obviously there are many people who feel their lives are incomplete without spirituality or religion.

drat, that's bummer. i hope you weren't insulted by my suggestion, i wasn't trying to say you are nuts or "need help" in a nasty way, i just know that i used to have feelings i felt i couldn't control and i was lucky enough to get a fabulous therapist who has helped me with them. it's certainly not a perfect fix, and it's taken years, but i am so happy with the results that i always recommend people at least give it a shot.

however, if you have tried both talk therapy and medication and still have these issues, then that's a real stumper. it probably does boil down to a philosophical or "spiritual" need that you have to resolve for yourself, and (sadly) it's unlikely anybody is going to be able to help you with it. the best answer that i, or anybody, could give you is that you should find the best way to meet the needs you are experiencing, and you should base your beliefs and values on what satisfies YOU. if you simply cannot find a way to be happy without belief in God then you should believe in God, as long as you are honest with yourself about why you believe.


Yeah tell me about it! I think I've probably never stuck with any single therapist long enough to really sort things out, but it's a heck of a thing trying to get the NHS to pay for more than 8 hours of therapy and at the moment I'm not sure I can afford to go privately. And I wasn't insulted, I know I need lots of professional help, it's just a matter of getting it! :)

Read The Plague.

So my question is, if life actually has no purpose, if there is nothing more than mortal human life, how do you make yourself get up in the morning, kind of thing? What motivates you to try to be a good person or do anything, really, if none of it matters? Is it just to get as much pleasure or enjoyment or happiness as you can? And how do you deal with the innate human fear of death as the great unknown? How do you prepare yourself for the rather terrifying prospect of just not existing anymore? (Not that hell or heaven is less terrifying, mind you - I'm equally terrified of the existence and the non-existence of an afterlife.) I'm scared of everything, all the time, and I don't want to be. Even if all my feelings of needing to search and find Truth or they key that will make life make sense has been misguided, I still want to be able to face that and not be afraid or so apathetic that I literally waste away. What do I do?
Just the experience of living is enough for me (more or less). I have personal goals that I strive for (doing good research; learning new things; having fun with other people; being a good friend and partner; trying to make life easier, more fun, and healthier for some people; etc.), but I'm not kidding myself in believing that they mean much outside my personal framework.

As far as not existing anymore... if I think about it a lot it can sadden me (particularly because I enjoy living and am fascinated by the people around me and intrigued by the future), but then I remind myself that it's important to lead the life I want to lead now, and not worry about death too much.

Nihilism and atheism are not the same things.

What motivates me? Life. It's crappy and it's wonderful and it's ugly and it's beautiful, and we don't get much of it, so we might as well rage, rage, rage against the dying of the light until the very bitter end. Humanity motivates me. That and chocolate.

Yeah tell me about it! I think I've probably never stuck with any single therapist long enough to really sort things out, but it's a heck of a thing trying to get the NHS to pay for more than 8 hours of therapy and at the moment I'm not sure I can afford to go privately. And I wasn't insulted, I know I need lots of professional help, it's just a matter of getting it! :)
whew, glad i didn't inadvertently piss you off.

as for getting good help, i agree that it's a major problem. my mother is a clinical therapist, so she was able to recommend collegues who she knew were excellent, and that really helped me find somebody who would do a good job. i also had the added luxury of my parents covering my therapy bills, because i was young enough and they were nice enough to feel that getting treatment was a priority. without those two factors i doubt i would have had such success.

Nihilism and atheism are not the same things.

What motivates me? Life. It's crappy and it's wonderful and it's ugly and it's beautiful, and we don't get much of it, so we might as well rage, rage, rage against the dying of the light until the very bitter end. Humanity motivates me. That and chocolate.
Apparently so does Dylan Thomas. :)

I can't claim to fit into either of the catagories you requested responses from, so I won't pretend to.

It is clear that you are searching for something in or from life that you have yet to find. I understand your angst with your religous upbringing. It seems to have given you an inate desire to know something beyond subjective life, while at the same time discounting itself as that something due to presenting things you just can't agree with. Anywhere close?

This is one of the major problems with organized religion. Most churches say, "accept what we tell you is right or you are lost." Assuming that God exists and that He does have the power to provide objective meaning to life, only He would really have the right to tell someone what truth is or what to believe.

If I were in your position, I would think it wise to search for God. If He really is all powerful, why not ask Him to help you find/understand Him? Spend some time reading and searching for yourself. Don't take any one person's thoughts, ideas or advice as "gospel" truth. If you want "gospel" truth, read those for yourself and come to your own conclusions. Although many churches claim to have the truth, we are all essentially stuck with our subjective realities except as we come to a knowledge of divine truth for ourselves.

I can tell you what I've found and where I looked, it may help it may not. I do believe that if you honestly seek for God/truth, it will be revealed to you. If having "meaning" in life, beyond your own subjective reality, is the only way to fill the void in your soul, neither atheism nor nihilism can provide that for you. If, like Bottle, you don't have a desire for that kind of meaning, you may be okay, but it doesn't sound like you are particularly satisfied with the answers that atheism can provide. I suggest that you actively pursue knowledge of God and a relationship with Him for yourself. Be patient with yourself and with God and give yourself time and opportunity to be led and guided to a knowledge of truth.

I can tell you what I've found and where I looked, it may help it may not. I do believe that if you honestly seek for God/truth, it will be revealed to you. If having "meaning" in life, beyond your own subjective reality, is the only way to fill the void in your soul, neither atheism nor nihilism can provide that for you. If, like Bottle, you don't have a desire for that kind of meaning, you may be okay, but it doesn't sound like you are particularly satisfied with the answers that atheism can provide. I suggest that you actively pursue knowledge of God and a relationship with Him for yourself. Be patient with yourself and with God and give yourself time and opportunity to be led and guided to a knowledge of truth.
Alternatively, there are secular philosophers who posit objective truths without gods... Roxleys, you may want to look into some contemporary philosophy, if you're having trouble with the idea of a god or gods.

I don't need motivation, I do things anyway. It's weird - Christians are always asking atheists how they can live without a God, but I don't find any trouble with it. I just carry on existing and [for the most part] enjoying myself, until I don't exist any more. I don't fear death - for a start, I'm hardly going to have any time to reflect upon it, am I?

If anything, how can Christians live thinking that there is a possibility they'll suffer eternal damnation in Hell? [especially Catholics, judging by what Roxleys said]

Nihilism and atheism are not the same things.

What motivates me? Life. It's crappy and it's wonderful and it's ugly and it's beautiful, and we don't get much of it, so we might as well rage, rage, rage against the dying of the light until the very bitter end. Humanity motivates me. That and chocolate.

Ah I know theyr'e not the same, sorry if that wasn't clear - I started out with just 'nihilists' but then as I was typing the posts I realied a lot of the stuff I was saying applied to atheists rather than strictly nihilists, so I added that in. :)

Again, thanks for all the suggestions and input. :)

Apparently so does Dylan Thomas. :)
Yeah, that's right, I ripped off his quote...so sue me.

No, actually, please don't:).

Yeah, that's right, I ripped off his quote...so sue me.

No, actually, please don't:).
Hey, I'm a fan myself... first fell in love with him when I was doing an English project about symbolism of day and night in high school. Anyway, I was excited to see someone quoting him!

(Because I'm just that big of a dork! :D)

Sometimes I hate being right.

I can identify people who have lost faith, purpose and reason. I, like the fictional Darrill, have found no solution for helping another rediscover their true inner purpose that I deem acceptable.

My only advice is to either broaden your search when looking for something to fill the void (try exploring other cultures and faiths, look for themes and ideas that speak to your soul), or concentrate instead on perfecting yourself, and leave the metaphysical questions for when you as a person feel more complete.

I have a friend that I train extensively with in the martial arts. When we met at a party; he was desperately trying to overcome poor health, a nasty layoff, and chronic depression. He had even attempted suicide some weeks before, I later found out.

After talking with him extensively about various simple subjects, I discovered he had some interest in things that I also did, we grew to be friends. As friends I introduced him to all manner of new books, new shows, new movies, new languages, new hobbies, etc. I kept offering him new and (hopefully) exciting things to do, I kept his mind busy and his body excercised.

Roughly one year has past since we became friends. He's doing considerably better now, he's getting a new job, going back to school, and genuinely seems to be happy once again. I have little reason to believe that this would have happened sans my befriending him. Indeed, many who knew him have commented on the change. I allow myself some pride in the achievement, but to be truthful I feel a little bad.

I helped him, and I pretty much told him what I was doing, distracting him from his troubles, then introducing a purpose to his life by stimulating his intellect and muscles. But I still was playing "mentor" to his "pupil"...I felt less like a friend and more like some kind of instructor at times. I didn't like the feeling, and I didn't like the fact that I enjoyed the power I had while helping him. It was/is a bad sign to me.

I have no interest in "converting" others, but I can tell you this, sometimes what a person needs is just that. A "conversion" is a swift, spiritual kick to the behind, and it can shock reality back into focus quickly. It can be painful, or enjoyable, depending on what you need as a person.

Perhaps what you are looking for, in posting this thread, is something of a spiritual kick to the behind? Think it over, find yourself a friend to share a year with pehraps?

Roxleys, you equate nihilists with atheists. These two groups are commonly, and wrongly equated. Most nihilists are atheists, but most atheists are not nihilists.

Sex and curiousity, but mostly sex.

I am not exactly sure what I would be called. I have aspects of agnosticism, atheism, nihilism, existentialism, and hedonism. I am also a physiolater, one who worships Nature. Basically, my motivation is that the time of my conciousness is very short, and that I should enjoy life as best I can while it lasts. Also to help others to do the same. And, above all, to try and preserve the sanctum sanctorum of life we have on this planet. It is kind of hard to verbalise how I feel, indeed, I don't fully know myself, as I do not have very good intrapersonal intelligence.

i recommend volunteering to work for the needy in some way. there is nothing like helping others to get you to focus on whats really important in life. if you work really hard at something you believe in you wont worry about the meaning of life any more.

Nihilists and atheists: what motivates you?

Endorphins.

I'm an Atheist, not a Nihilist, but I'll answer.

It doesn't phase me: I live for myself, my life, for now. I don't waste my time storing up points for the "afterlife", trying to please a "god" who's expectations can't even be clearly deciphered (i.e. the Bible and it's inconsistencies, edits, etc.) I concentrate on enjoying this one while it lasts, because, whether you believe in any religion, everyone at some point says "what if mine isn't the right one, what if I'm wrong". Don't deny it. Everyone, when confronted with different options, will think, unless your a mindless automation to your religion. That's just the way people are. I was Catholic, I thought this to myself, and I thought "why?", and then became an athiest and began living for today.

Am I really that much of a thread killer? :confused: ;)

Am I really that much of a thread killer? :confused: ;)
Yes, yes, you are.

;)

(I've noticed that I am too!!)

Yes, yes, you are.

;)

(I've noticed that I am too!!)

Gotta love creative thread bumping! :D

Gotta love creative thread bumping! :D
Indeed. :D

P.S. - I agreed with what you were saying, but didn't have much to add except "I agree with Takuma" (and didn't think that was a particularly important thing to be saying - especially since I had posted about all this living stuff earlier. :D ).

Of course, now I've decided that this discussion is important enough... go figure! ;)

I am motivated by my freedom and potential and my desire to free others.

I wouldn't classify myself as atheist, agnostic, theist, or anything of that sort... I simply don't pay attention to religion. I don't make a concious effort to do so, it is just something I have never had to worry about myself.

As for how I get myself going, I just do. I just have this internal drive to excel that keeps me going, and it shows. Basically, get some goals you want to achieve, and go for it. Go like hell until you get there, and always be setting new goals so that you can keep going. But if anything, just keep going. Wake up in the morning and think to yourself "I'm going to be awesome today, and I'm going to do awesome things," and it will happen.

Since this thread is sort of about beliefs in God though, I'll give my take on the situation (since regardless of any religious connotations, it is a very interesting philosophical dilemma).

If (and I say "if", because of Schroedinger's Cat) there is a deity or supreme being out there, he put me on this planet for a reason. Since I am fulfilling my life to the fullest I can, without causing anyone else undue harm, I feel that I'm doing fine in the eyes of said supreme being (though to speak for it is rather counter-productive - I can simply give my own feelings on the matter) and whenever my day of reckoning comes, I will be able to appear before this being and say "This is what I did, I may not be perfect, but I did the best I could." If there is no existence beyond death, that does not bother me in the least.

I think a lot of people here are humanists, believing in the power of human emotions, rather than nihilists, which rules out 'love' and 'truth' - with the paradoxical 'there is no truth.'
Agnosticism in its purist form means 'God' or 'Gods' are unqualifiable, they are some force out there, don't ask what.

Well I'm atheist, pretty tricky not to be in an atheist family, but my school had all the trappings of Christianity and I went to Sunday school for a few years.
Making people happy tends to make you happy...don't know why. Lottery winners tend to be happy if they give away most of the dosh. The others become shrewish and bitter generally.
How many of you wake up and think 'ooh I'm going to make a difference today!' or 'God's blessed me with another day!'? Frankly I think 'ugh 7am...going back to sleep damn alarm, wake me in 8min' Yea I think to my alarm clock...nothing wrong with that is there?
Live each moment, seize each opportunity, if your life is short it's more of a waste certainly, but you don't have to make it a waste. Which is why I kick myself for wasting asmany opportunities as I take.
Death? It happens. I don't want to die before I've enjoyed my life, and I don't want to upset my family. But it will happen, and by then I won't care. Also arguments for euthanasia change...you're shortening their last moments...but then if they're not enjoying them...
If you can't fill your 'hole' with loved ones and friends, and seriously look for The Truth, looking inwards can either depress or heal...I tend to the former personally but heh....if it works for you. But I think you tend towards agnosticism more...

I am motivated by enlightened self interest.

I'm motivated by my love for others, my annoyance at others and my desire to annoy others. Even though I don't really believe I have any real stake in what happens after I die, for some reason I still care. It'd be a better world if everyone cared what happened to future generations. Maybe that's why I care. It sure would have been nice if some of our ancestors gave a damn about the kind of world they left us. I want freedom and beauty and the wild parts of the world to still be there 200 years from now. My purpose is to satify my own ambitions without harming others. I try to behave as a moral person because I like myself better that way. The only punishment I fear for being a bad person is my own judgement. Maybe it takes a stonger person to behave morally without the fear of punishment in the afterlife than some people can manage. Maybe I just like feeling morally superior. Maybe I'm not, but everyone deludes themselves a little to be happy. :D

Roxleys, you equate nihilists with atheists. These two groups are commonly, and wrongly equated. Most nihilists are atheists, but most atheists are not nihilists.

See post 39. :)