NationStates Jolt Archive

My humanities teacher put forward to me a theory of his, that the United States Of America will eventually be almost individual countries. For example, Florida no longer being a state but its own country. He believes this because the large opposing political views still remain between the northern states and southern states since your civil war. With the large financial power some states have eg. Florida again. do not require the backing of the rest of America, they could live independetly as there own free country. If this happens to 1 country than the rest would soon follow! This almost making the USA nothing more than the EU!
Give me your views on this!

Remember the last time this country wanted to break up?

Add NUKES.

No break ups. Especially not California, because Texas would hurl the army at us in an instant.

I think it would be quite possible.

We'd be back to the old Articles of Confederation if we broke up. . .


I don't think it'd be good....

This almost making the USA nothing more than the EU!
Damn you and your truth!

It's illegal under federal law for states to secede. If they tried and the courts failed to stop them the military would be called upon to respond.

Remember the last time this country wanted to break up?

Add NUKES.

No break ups. Especially not California, because Texas would hurl the army at us in an instant.
Exactly. I think any question of a state leaving the Union was addressed with the Civil War.

That'd be fantastic. We should break into smaller bits.

There are many reasons California shouldn't break away, fear of Texas is NOT one of them. Texas couldn't even handle Mexicans.

My humanities teacher put forward to me a theory of his, that the United States Of America will eventually be almost individual countries. For example, Florida no longer being a state but its own country. He believes this because the large opposing political views still remain between the northern states and southern states since your civil war. With the large financial power some states have eg. Florida again. do not require the backing of the rest of America, they could live independetly as there own free country. If this happens to 1 country than the rest would soon follow! This almost making the USA nothing more than the EU!
Give me your views on this!
Your humanities teacher is an idiot.

My humanities teacher put forward to me a theory of his, that the United States Of America will eventually be almost individual countries. For example, Florida no longer being a state but its own country. He believes this because the large opposing political views still remain between the northern states and southern states since your civil war. With the large financial power some states have eg. Florida again. do not require the backing of the rest of America, they could live independetly as there own free country. If this happens to 1 country than the rest would soon follow! This almost making the USA nothing more than the EU!
Give me your views on this!

No. It's been around a lot longer than the EU. The opposing views in the US are between urban and rural areas (in fact, between urban and suburban).

If you look at the county by county (instead of state by state) map of the last election, you will see that the red areas are all of the rural areas and most of the suburbs while the blue areas are mostly urban.

A few exceptions here and there, but it is not a North/South thing.

Also, unlike the EU, which has not had a precedence-setting situation for secession, the US went through that phase long ago. Secession is unlikely.

America isn't breaking up they're just taking a break. They thought it was time to see other people and take some time apart.

Your humanities teacher is an idiot.
HA HA, That thought had crossed my mind as well. Perhaps he just wanted to spark a discussion?

Meh, I believe it.

Should it be approved, the EU constitutional treaty does have a secession clause (i.e., a clause that allows member states to secede, should they choose to do so)

well that's the EU not America

If you ask me, I would say that USA will be same as EU if it breaks up :(

HA HA, That thought had crossed my mind as well. Perhaps he just wanted to spark a discussion?

Ask him if he uses NationStates. Maybe he's one of those guys that posts all the stupid anti-American conspiracy-thing topics.

America isn't breaking up they're just taking a break. They thought it was time to see other people and take some time apart.

I think it would be better if they became just friends... with benefits. Then they could see other people. It's not you, it's me. Okay it's you. I;'ll send for my things.

There are many reasons California shouldn't break away, fear of Texas is NOT one of them. Texas couldn't even handle Mexicans.

Not to mention that there's a sizable militia in Texas that wants to secede. I think we should help them.

I think this is indeed possible, In fact I think it is inevidable. Not right now, of course, but later in the century. I can only hope I live to see it. :cool:

Your humanities teacher is an idiot.


That's putting it mildly!

I do play nation states, and this is my first post if u looked at side where it tells you how many posts have been made! i just wana c wot everything thinks of this theory!

I think this is indeed possible, In fact I think it is inevidable. Not right now, of course, but later in the century. I can only hope I live to see it. :cool:
Are you from the U.S?

I don't see that happening. Also, the ideal differences aren't just the north and south. There are different levels. There is the northeast, the extreme left; the southeast plus texas, the extreme right; the midwest and west, with varying degrees of moderation; and california, which confuses the hell out of people. So this north/south bullshit doesn't fly. And yeah, I think D.C. would prevent any potential break ups with its arsenal.

I see the nation breaking up more in a sences of ideals rather than any states actually leaving the Union. Partisanship seems to have taken priority over nationalism.

civil war was american against american with lots of young guys dead was it worth it?? bitchy states bitching against each other
war what is it good for absolutely nothing sing it again

That'd be fantastic. We should break into smaller bits.

I for one would oppose a future Masachussetts-Texas War of 2012.

I don't see that happening. Also, the ideal differences aren't just the north and south. There are different levels. There is the northeast, the extreme left; the southeast plus texas, the extreme right; the midwest and west, with varying degrees of moderation; and california, which confuses the hell out of people. So this north/south bullshit doesn't fly. And yeah, I think D.C. would prevent any potential break ups with its arsenal.

Yes because America is like a street gang... you're innit fer life cuzzzzzzz

At least, not for the next three or four generations.

Simply put, there is no place in the US where the citizens consider themselves as citizens of the state before the nation.

Further, there is no issue which would divide the nation along state lines.

You *might* get a state splitting into smaller components (East and West Colorado, or North and South California), but break away from the US? Not likely.

My humanities teacher put forward to me a theory of his, that the United States Of America will eventually be almost individual countries. For example, Florida no longer being a state but its own country. He believes this because the large opposing political views still remain between the northern states and southern states since your civil war. With the large financial power some states have eg. Florida again. do not require the backing of the rest of America, they could live independetly as there own free country. If this happens to 1 country than the rest would soon follow! This almost making the USA nothing more than the EU!
Give me your views on this!

I wish the individual states had that sort of freedom, but the truth is the whole reason the civil war was fought was a dispute as to whether the states can break away from the union. The results of that war said that no, you can't. The federal government now would probably take the same course of action now if a similar conflict were to arise.

I do play nation states, and this is my first post if u looked at side where it tells you how many posts have been made! i just wana c wot everything thinks of this theory!

I believe they were talking about your teacher.

I'm European, and I don't see the US breaking up...
Maybe California, but unless Arnold is the one to decide he wants to be president there, then hell, he'll beat the crap out of anyone who tries anything.
(Come on he has arms reinforced with a titanium skeleton or something like that, then skin is only there to fool you, haven't you seen the terminator, where they take him apart???)

(No I am not stupid, nor insane (well some claim that I am the latter), I know Arnold isn't a cyborg, he's an alien (not from Austria, but space (Well, ok, maybe not))).

Are you from the U.S?No, but my wife is.

I don't see that happening. Also, the ideal differences aren't just the north and south. There are different levels. There is the northeast, the extreme left; the southeast plus texas, the extreme right; the midwest and west, with varying degrees of moderation; and california, which confuses the hell out of people. So this north/south bullshit doesn't fly. And yeah, I think D.C. would prevent any potential break ups with its arsenal.

Unfortunately there are people in each of those regions that don't agree with the majority political ideals. I live in Texas, but I have political ideals that probably suit the usual northeast or maybe midwest or California. I dunno. About left-leaning moderate, by the above post I'd assume Midwest.

Yes because America is like a street gang... you're innit fer life cuzzzzzzz

fa sho mane.

Sorry but the humanities teacher is a tad out of touch.

Think of the US as one great big dysfunctional family.

It will help you understand us better when you ask "Why in the hell do the Americans...."

;)

Its not a question of WILL they try to separate its do they WANT to. Obviously to anybody who lives in the USA the answer in NO. No, not even california. Why? $$$ :mp5: If you need me to explain it to you then... frankly... your this kids Humanities Professor.


(yes, thats him)-> :confused: ________________________ :sniper: <-(yes, thats me)

No, but my wife is.
Well, that explains it. No one that lives here, and is in their right mind would entertain the idea that sessesion of any state from the union is remotely possible.

Well, that explains it. No one that lives here, and is in their right mind would entertain the idea that sessesion of any state from the union is remotely possible.Actually I did live in the US for six years.

Interesting fact: One state and one state only may secede from the Union. Texas. Why? Well, when they joined it was kind of like a merger between nations and the Republic of Texas voluntarily joined with the clause that if they didn't like it they could leave. Hence, one of them ferners is currently the President.

Interesting fact: One state and one state only may secede from the Union. Texas. Why? Well, when they joined it was kind of like a merger between nations and the Republic of Texas voluntarily joined with the clause that if they didn't like it they could leave. Hence, one of them ferners is currently the President.

I heard they lost that right after the Civil War. I wonder if they did or not...

Well, that explains it. No one that lives here, and is in their right mind would entertain the idea that sessesion of any state from the union is remotely possible.

Hell I was born and raised in Calif. I was all for Calif seceding. I was sick of the rest of the US giving Calif so much flak about stupid shit, that I thought it would be great to show them just what the US economy would be like without Calif (the 5th largest ecomnomy in the world) supporting them.

God I'd love it. That nauseating sense of American nationalism destroyed by slef interest. *wipes tear from eye* it's beautiful

ive got to admit I think the U.S is coming to an end here are some signs

-40 years time China and India will have a stronger economy than the U.S this is important because since the end of the cold war America has been the only superpower so it can do what it likes which has given it the ability to impose democracy around the world but the U.S wont touch China because of its shear might (the second highest miletery budget) and China being the only real communist power will be trying to impose communism on the world (a new cold war) but hopefully India will be helping us (hopefully)

-like with the fall of Rome there is rapidly decreasing nationalism ,patriotism and the poor are considering miletery service less and less apealing.

-like in Rome there is increasing corruption everywhere which is making the country weaker and weaker.

-after WWII there was a baby boom and the peaple born from this will be retairing soon which might run most western country's into debt's of trillions with more old than young there will be alot of power in the old and you might notice that there pretty right wing and ignorant as you can see by how bush got into power.

-growing devides between rich and poor are taking place and we all now what happend to Russia when that happend

-you would of probly noticed the world isn't U.S freindly anymore this might actually be a good thing because lets face it the U.S won't be around forever so the rest of the world will need to stand on its own two feet should the "shit hit the fan" but this is also putting a strain on America's miletery less country's are helping them in there wars take the UK for example the goverment is determend to shake off this American poodle image so will probly not be in the next U.S led war.

dont call me a crak pot all of these things are taking place p.s sorry bout the spelling my comp is being hetrophobic

The idea that it would in the near future is absurd. For one, the politics are not a dividing factor. They are divergent, of course, but for the most part, no one in America hates eachotoher for it. For another, it'd be economically impractical. Most states are vital to the economy. The few that aren't are more equivilant to the bad neighborhood of a city. Keep cutting it out of the city, and another one will appear. Eventually, no city will be left to administer. That's what's happening in the US. No one is gonna get rid of West Virgina simply because it is economically underpreforming.

Your humanities teacher is an idiot.
I hope you realise that you just came across as an idiot because you made a thesis statement without providing any kind of arguments to back it up?

Anyhow, I think it's unlikely because despite the ideological differences the citizens of the US have a lot of general community spirit.

ive got to admit I think the U.S is coming to an end here are some signs

-40 years time China and India will have a stronger economy than the U.S this is important because since the end of the cold war America has been the only superpower so it can do what it likes which has given it the ability to impose democracy around the world but the U.S wont touch China because of its shear might (the second highest miletery budget) and China being the only real communist power will be trying to impose communism on the world (a new cold war) but hopefully India will be helping us (hopefully)


Why would they? China is on the verge on implosion and lacks free floating currency. They need to convert to an open market in order to survive for much longer, and that will seriously slow their growth rate.
India is further along, but India (and China too) will eventually end up outsourcing as well. Never mind that the next "boom economy" (Nigeria? Ukraine?) will come along and suck jobs out of them. [/QUOTE]


The Chinese and Russian military COMBINED spend only 26% of what the US does. And the US has been spending at that rate for YEARS.
Futher, China has turned away from Communist revolutionary activity. They no longer support North Korea or Viet Nam on very much, and have not worked at toppling a government in a generation.


-like with the fall of Rome there is rapidly decreasing nationalism ,patriotism and the poor are considering miletery service less and less apealing.


Not only is that a spurious analogy, it's vague at best. Military service less and less appealing? How? For how long? If you mean less people enter the reserves during wartime, then yes. But 2 years is hardly a trend.
Declining Nationalism and Patriotism? Where? I think that the US is considerably MORE patriotic than it was in the early 70s!

BTW: The US has only been a superpower since 1945 (by most people's calendar). The Pax Romana lasted for 209 years. That takes the Pax Americana to 2154.


-like in Rome there is increasing corruption everywhere which is making the country weaker and weaker.


(chuckle) Man, you really believe the hype, don't you? Society has ALWAYS been about as corrupt as now.


-after WWII there was a baby boom and the peaple born from this will be retairing soon which might run most western country's into debt's of trillions with more old than young.


This is true, and it is a problem.



there will be alot of power in the old and you might notice that there pretty right wing and ignorant as you can see by how bush got into power.


This is not true and is stereotyping. I live in Connecticut, and the older generation mostly votes for the Democrats. Bush was elected in two of the closest elections of all time. To say one group or another is to blame/to credit for this is illusory.


-growing devides between rich and poor are taking place and we all now what happend to Russia when that happend

Huh? This makes no sense. Surely you're not comparing 2004 America with 1904 Russia?


-you would of probly noticed the world isn't U.S freindly anymore this might actually be a good thing because lets face it the U.S won't be around forever so the rest of the world will need to stand on its own two feet should the "shit hit the fan" but this is also putting a strain on America's miletery less country's are helping them in there wars take the UK for example the goverment is determend to shake off this American poodle image so will probly not be in the next U.S led war.

That's a great synopsis of the last 3 years, at least in respect to US foreign policy. However, that's a VERY short term trend. It'd take close to 25 years of things being exactly like that for it to make much of a difference.



dont call me a crak pot all of these things are taking place p.s sorry bout the spelling my comp is being hetrophobic

Crack pot? No. But I don't think you're considering the long haul, and that time is not a void. I knew folks who thought America was washed up in 1980.

I don't know about breaking up, I have heard different theories, all possible I suppose, some not very probable.

However the one thing that does seem certain is that America is on the decline. America has peaked and is now heading downward as China and Japan buy up all of their debt. Which of course will mean that China at some point will use it as political capital and there won't be a damn thing America will be able to do about it. Save going to war with China.

Also with China holding all the cards owning all of America's debt, the Americans would have to start the war. Would not be in China's interest to do so, they will already have what they want. And I can't imagine the USA beating China on their own soil. They just don't have the man power.

Hopefully, in 2008 the American people will wise up to the massive spending Bush did during his tenure and use wisdom and a lot of thought before they decide who they elect next. Because at the rate it's going, America will be bankrupt sooner rather than later.

We have three parts:

#1 The Liberals

#2 The Moderates

#3 The Conservatives

Nov 2004 was a big split, but the Moderates can swing one way or another. Enough of them swung towards Bush this November.

The Liberals want to ignore morals and family values, push the limits of free-speech, outlaw religon, make the government bigger, support socialism, and let the terrorists do whatever they want and never fight back.

The Conservatives want to enforce morals and family values on everyone, put limits on free-speech, force religion on people, make the government smaller, have everyone support themselves and stop having the government do it, and fight the terrorists whereever they are even if there is no valid reason to do so.

Moderates are somewhere inbetween the Liberals and Conservatives.

I wish the individual states had that sort of freedom, but the truth is the whole reason the civil war was fought was a dispute as to whether the states can break away from the union. The results of that war said that no, you can't. The federal government now would probably take the same course of action now if a similar conflict were to arise.

The Feds would certainly take the same course of action then and now.

When the Articles of Confederation were replaced by the Constitution, one of the beliefs of the States was that because they were sovereign powers unifying into a Federal republic, they had the right to reclaim the sovereignty they gave up- under the theory that they no longer consented to the arrangement and could quote the Declaration of Independence giving them the right to dissolve the political bonds.

Linclon and the Union had another thought on the subject, and when Fort Sumpter was fired upon, the North had no choice but to treat it like a rebellion.

The Reconstruction Amendments (13th and 14th) basically took away much of the guts of the 10th Amendment, which is why Texas could not enforce their original arrangement for Statehood which provided for their ability to leave. They were on the losing side of the Civil War-and losers don't get to dictate the terms of surrender.

-40 years time China and India will have a stronger economy than the U.S
India maybe. China's debt, however, makes the US' debt look like chump change.

While we are disagreeing ideologically, the states are too financially tied into the federal government to secede right now.

My humanities teacher put forward to me a theory of his, that the United States Of America will eventually be almost individual countries.
Of course it will eventually happen. No country the size of the USA can stay together forever.

We have three parts:

#1 The Liberals

#2 The Moderates

#3 The Conservatives

Nov 2004 was a big split, but the Moderates can swing one way or another. Enough of them swung towards Bush this November.

The Liberals want to ignore morals and family values, push the limits of free-speech, outlaw religon, make the government bigger, support socialism, and let the terrorists do whatever they want and never fight back.

The Conservatives want to enforce morals and family values on everyone, put limits on free-speech, force religion on people, make the government smaller, have everyone support themselves and stop having the government do it, and fight the terrorists whereever they are even if there is no valid reason to do so.

Moderates are somewhere inbetween the Liberals and Conservatives.
Are you aware that your stereotypes are so exaggeraed so as to be caricatures? Liberals don't want to outlaw religion. Conservatives don't want to make the government smaller.

The country is not going to break up. Be reasonable here people. The two extream parties are polarized, but most people I know can disagree and not go nuts over it.

The worst part is that they broke up over the phone.

wow if all it takes is one or two extremely polarised and controversial elections to spark talk of a dissolution of the union, then maybe the union wasn't that strong in the first place?

that was kinda sarcasm (i'm sure its far more than just recent elections for a start...) but the USA breaking up is a stupid idea. it wouldn't be allowed to happen.
and if it did, i think the world economy would collapse, among other horrible things.

Well, just like has already been said, it will happen some time. No nation with such a large territory can held itself together indefinitely. It happened before, it will happen again.

Of course, there won't be a Florida-Oregon War in 2008-2010, but a breakup of the US will happen eventually. Maybe in three or four generations.

-growing devides between rich and poor are taking place and we all now what happend to Russia when that happend


And France...

Well, just like has already been said, it will happen some time. No nation with such a large territory can held itself together indefinitely. It happened before, it will happen again.

Of course, there won't be a Florida-Oregon War in 2008-2010, but a breakup of the US will happen eventually. Maybe in three or four generations.

Actually, that's not quite true. No nation has failed to hold itself together since the rise of Nationalism. Germany morphed, Russia got larger (formed the USSR), but then went back to being Russia. China hasn't changed, either.

Come to think of it, barring INTERNATIONAL PARTITION, I can't think of a *single* nation that has broken down since 1783, with the exceptions of the "cobbled together" nations that were made after the fall of the Habsburg Monarchy (Czechoslovakia, Jugoslavia).

Three or Four? Doubtful. The divides everyone here is talking about is between PEOPLE, (and recent ones at that!!) not states.

I do play nation states, and this is my first post if u looked at side where it tells you how many posts have been made! i just wana c wot everything thinks of this theory!

Not gonna happen Lacklustre. We settled this issue a long time ago!

I say that MASS and CALI and NY And HAIWII and ALASKA all go and try to join Canada!!!

this breakup is helped by the republican view of government.

republicans want strong state governments with a weaker federal government, whereas us dems want a stronger federal government.

R: united states of america
D: united states of america



on another note, it is my belief that it will go exactly the opposite way.

instead of us becoming what the EU is now, i believe that the EU will become what we are now.

I don't think any federal law was made before or after the war between the states that wouldn't allow the states to secede. I could very well be wrong. Id actually like it if someone could find that law and post it here.

We can divide the country the following ways:

New England - not even counting New York, New England is often fairly far-left, socially progressive, and what people might call "tax and spend." Obviously this is not all-encompassing, as New Hampshire is pretty moderate, but Massachusetts is the picture of New England liberalism.

Canadian border states - I count NY, PA, Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, New Jersey...that's it. Also liberal, these states may vote Republican on some level but are a far cry from what we not call "value voters." Also, Maryland, Delaware, and D.C. may fit in here, though we all know the GOP doesn't stand a chance in D.C. and neither MD nor DC share a border with Canada.

Mideast - not quite the Midwest, this is states like West Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, Iowa, and Missouri. Basically, any states not mentioned above that are not former CSA states or east of that Kansas-Nebraska-Dakota wall.

Former CSA - any state that was once in the CSA, this is the Solid South. I throw in Oklahoma for good measure here, but it doesn't include Kansas or Nebraska, though these states share some of the social authoritarian tendencies. The South is less defined by its economic values and more defined by morals, race relations, and religion.

Plains states - any state without a Pacific coastline that isn't already mentioned. (Excluding the Four Corners states and Nevada, that is.) These states may be religious and moralistic but are defined just as strongly by an anti-federalist stance, something that once defined the Solid South but has largely disappeared from it.

Desert states - I count New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, and Nevada, but not Utah. Wait, Colorado's not a desert state...well, it's still a moderate-conservative state, in which the GOP is likely to win a federal election but moderates are well-respected.

Pacific states - California is almost in its own little world, averaging a moderate-liberal stance just like Oregon and Washington. Many areas of each are defined by progressive laws, such as California's environmental laws and many animal rights statutes in West Hollywood.

Periphery states - Alaska and Hawaii were late editions to the U.S. and largely hold an independent identity. I don't see them seceding anytime soon, just as Florida and Utah won't secede soon, but each of these four states is in a unique situation. Florida doesn't count as a Deep South state, though it is largely a red state now, and Utah has more in common with some of its anti-federalist neighbors. However, if any of these states was going to secede or refuse to join the Union, it likely would have done so already.

If the U.S. breaks up, it's either going to be in a series of chaotic skirmishes that will either leave states largely intact or uttely obliterate them...or it will just sort of devolve into several nations without much of a bang. A repeat of the Civil War is unlikely; a Civil Cold War is definitely possible.

We can divide the country the following ways:

New England - not even counting New York, New England is often fairly far-left, socially progressive, and what people might call "tax and spend." Obviously this is not all-encompassing, as New Hampshire is pretty moderate, but Massachusetts is the picture of New England liberalism.

I'll only speak to this one, as I live in New England. We are not all liberals. We are not even CLOSE to being all liberals. Connecticut, for example, votes GOP with the exception of the 6 cities... which vote Democrat and put the state over the line.
Further, my own county (Fairfield) is considered "renegade" by the rest of the state, as we assiliate much more with NYC.

We have three parts:

#1 The Liberals

#2 The Moderates

#3 The Conservatives

Nov 2004 was a big split, but the Moderates can swing one way or another. Enough of them swung towards Bush this November.

The Liberals want to ignore morals and family values, push the limits of free-speech, outlaw religon, make the government bigger, support socialism, and let the terrorists do whatever they want and never fight back.

The Conservatives want to enforce morals and family values on everyone, put limits on free-speech, force religion on people, make the government smaller, have everyone support themselves and stop having the government do it, and fight the terrorists whereever they are even if there is no valid reason to do so.

Moderates are somewhere inbetween the Liberals and Conservatives.

I disagree, because those are way to vague and stereotypical. A better list would be:

1) Far-Left

2) Left-Leaning

3) Moderate

4) Right-Leaning

5) Far-Right

The Far-Left is what you say to want to ignore morals and family values, push the limits of free-speech, outlaw religon, make the government bigger, support socialism, and let the terrorists do whatever they want and never fight back.

The Left-Leaning have agree with a lot of the things with the Far-Left, but agree with the right on a few things.

The Far-Right want to enforce morals and family values on everyone, put limits on free-speech, force religion on people, make the government smaller, have everyone support themselves and stop having the government do it, and fight the terrorists whereever they are even if there is no valid reason to do so.

The Right-Leaning is basically the same as Left-Leaning as they agree mostly with the right, but agree with the left on a few things.

Moderates are somewhere inbetween the Left-Leaning and Right-Leaning. They can see both sides, and aren't really sure. Or they don't know. Either that or some other reason they haven't moved about.

I disagree, because those are way to vague and stereotypical. A better list would be:

1) Far-Left

2) Left-Leaning

3) Moderate

4) Right-Leaning

5) Far-Right

The Far-Left is what you say to want to ignore morals and family values, push the limits of free-speech, outlaw religon, make the government bigger, support socialism, and let the terrorists do whatever they want and never fight back.

The Left-Leaning have agree with a lot of the things with the Far-Left, but agree with the right on a few things.

The Far-Right want to enforce morals and family values on everyone, put limits on free-speech, force religion on people, make the government smaller, have everyone support themselves and stop having the government do it, and fight the terrorists whereever they are even if there is no valid reason to do so.

The Right-Leaning is basically the same as Left-Leaning as they agree mostly with the right, but agree with the left on a few things.

Moderates are somewhere inbetween the Left-Leaning and Right-Leaning. They can see both sides, and aren't really sure. Or they don't know. Either that or some other reason they haven't moved about.

A pretty decent summary of the American political spectrum.

A pretty decent summary of the American political spectrum.

Yeah, but it could be broken down more accurately though. Except I'd be typing the post all day, and I don't feel like doing that.

the EU will never become like America because knowone will let there nation great culture fall and it happend in America due to the fact that they were new country's so the had no connections to there mother land also the Freanch and freinds..............i dont think so

there is a gap growing between wealthy and poor there both getting rich but the wealthy are getting richer quiker this will lead to the kind of sociaty that exsisted in the 1900's exept the poor will be not so poor the devide is happening right now look back to 1950 there wasn't any real devides in society back then because everyone was poor but the rich have got richer faster.

the U.S may split up if its debt gets out of control like what is suggested for Russia if it dosn't improve they wont be forced to but certain areas eg new york will be able to survive on there own if not having to pay for some slaker state

but that will never happen in Russia because us Europeans will be buying Russia's gas/oil because the north sea will dry up

yeah...

Like Ben and Jen. Aw, yeah.

My humanities teacher put forward to me a theory of his, that the United States Of America will eventually be almost individual countries. For example, Florida no longer being a state but its own country. He believes this because the large opposing political views still remain between the northern states and southern states since your civil war. With the large financial power some states have eg. Florida again. do not require the backing of the rest of America, they could live independetly as there own free country. If this happens to 1 country than the rest would soon follow! This almost making the USA nothing more than the EU!
Give me your views on this!

That wont happen, States dont have the power captain THEY DONT HAVE THE POWER! But really, they dont have the power.

Oh and this is why he is a teacher, not a politician.

I'll only speak to this one, as I live in New England. We are not all liberals. We are not even CLOSE to being all liberals. Connecticut, for example, votes GOP with the exception of the 6 cities... which vote Democrat and put the state over the line.
Further, my own county (Fairfield) is considered "renegade" by the rest of the state, as we assiliate much more with NYC.

I did state it was not all-encompassing...there are social libertarians in the South, federalists in Idaho, and fascists in Minnesota...but look at this.

You stated that six cities pust CT blue instead of red. The key word that jumped out at me was "cities." Cities tend to be more liberal than rural areas, and New England has plenty of those. Massachusetts has Boston, Connecticut has Hartford, Rhode Island has Providence, and states that are less known for liberal politics also don't have major cities (Vermont being an exception, though what else is there besides Montpelier?) New Hampshire has Concord and that's it. Maine has Augusta, Portland, Bangor...a few sizeable cities, and it goes blue.

Also, in New England states, there is relatively little room to spread out, so everyone lives in cities. Cities are, by nature, more liberal, therefore by this rule, New England tends toward more liberal policies.

Your humanities teacher is an idiot.

I second this.. Humanities is a particularly worthless subject reguardless.. Perhaps you should dabble in the more prestigious Political Science department, or history department.. In which case you would quickly learn we are no more divided today then we have been over the last 100 years. Even though states have their different belifs.. in the end the Constitution is the supreme law.. maybe you should tell that hack of a professor to go back to school and learn something!

I did state it was not all-encompassing...there are social libertarians in the South, federalists in Idaho, and fascists in Minnesota...but look at this.

You stated that six cities pust CT blue instead of red. The key word that jumped out at me was "cities." Cities tend to be more liberal than rural areas, and New England has plenty of those. Massachusetts has Boston, Connecticut has Hartford, Rhode Island has Providence, and states that are less known for liberal politics also don't have major cities (Vermont being an exception, though what else is there besides Montpelier?) New Hampshire has Concord and that's it. Maine has Augusta, Portland, Bangor...a few sizeable cities, and it goes blue.

Also, in New England states, there is relatively little room to spread out, so everyone lives in cities. Cities are, by nature, more liberal, therefore by this rule, New England tends toward more liberal policies.

The Connecticut cities vote Democrat because that is where the majority of black voters live.

That is not a racist statement, it's the truth. Gore carried New Haven 5-1 in 2000. Similar results in Bridgeport and Hartford. Suburbia went for Bush.

The Answer To Our Woes (Us Blue States) (http://www.electionblues.us)

India is further along, but India (and China too) will eventually end up outsourcing as well. Never mind that the next "boom economy" (Nigeria? Ukraine?) will come along and suck jobs out of them.


I have a vision of the future. In 200 years, Sierra Leone will be the only country that actually does any work, and everyone else will just sit in offices all day, looking at gantt charts.

I have a vision of the future. In 200 years, Sierra Leone will be the only country that actually does any work, and everyone else will just sit in offices all day, looking at gantt charts.

Who showed you the memo ?!?!?

My humanities teacher put forward to me a theory of his, that the United States Of America will eventually be almost individual countries. For example, Florida no longer being a state but its own country. He believes this because the large opposing political views still remain between the northern states and southern states since your civil war. With the large financial power some states have eg. Florida again. do not require the backing of the rest of America, they could live independetly as there own free country. If this happens to 1 country than the rest would soon follow! This almost making the USA nothing more than the EU!
Give me your views on this!
I guess, in all honesty, anything is possible. However, I have serious doubts if anything to this magnitude would really take place.

My humanities teacher put forward to me a theory of his, that the United States Of America will eventually be almost individual countries. For example, Florida no longer being a state but its own country. He believes this because the large opposing political views still remain between the northern states and southern states since your civil war. With the large financial power some states have eg. Florida again. do not require the backing of the rest of America, they could live independetly as there own free country. If this happens to 1 country than the rest would soon follow! This almost making the USA nothing more than the EU!
Give me your views on this!

Ridiculous. The differences of opinion your teacher speaks of have existed from even before the Civil War, and are part of the fabric of America.

You may as well state that Paris is going to secede from France, and Hamburg from Germany.

Why would any state want to become its own independent country and have to survive on its own when it can be a part of the most powerful nation in the world. As long as a state is part of the United States they have the backing of the US economy and military might with no strings attached. Think about how often states like Florida or California need disaster relief because of Hurricanes, Flooding, earthquakes, and other disasters. Not to mention with out the support of our military and economy a state could become an easier target for terrorist who might not care about whether or not a state is still part of the US. No one is going to want to give up the freedom and security that the United States offers. You're more likely to see another country want to become a state than see a state want to become another country. Besides the US can't invade you if your already a state...LOL.

The chance that a state (or a bunch of states) will secede from the union is possible. But i doubt it would happen in the near future. It is perfectly possible for a state to secede if it wished to. There is nothing in the constitution that takes away that right.

It's illegal under federal law for states to secede. If they tried and the courts failed to stop them the military would be called upon to respond.

Then you have a civil war... Good for you.

We can only pray America feeds upon itself before it destroys the rest of the planet.

Of course, it would be a subtle irony for all the hell they put everyone else through.

Once its over, all the bigoted "don't want to break gods laws unless I get to sleep with my sister" kinda folk will likely be dead. But more importantly the largest terrorist netowrk in the world will be gone, namely the pentagon. Which is good for the world. Which is also good for humanity.

Eh. The rest of the world will likely do what American for generations have done, offer money to get them out, dragging in other nations to help, or we'll just ignore them and they're whining for "life". I mean, it's completely pathetic that Bush is asking for 955 million more dollars for countries devestated by the Tsunami, for "infastructure".. All that means is "Our business who run sweatshops in the areas want you to build roads for them so their slaves can get to work".

Let me be the first to get the marshmallows and watch destruction by excess at its finest.

Why would any state want to become its own independent country and have to survive on its own when it can be a part of the most powerful nation in the world. As long as a state is part of the United States they have the backing of the US economy and military might with no strings attached. Think about how often states like Florida or California need disaster relief because of Hurricanes, Flooding, earthquakes, and other disasters. Not to mention with out the support of our military and economy a state could become an easier target for terrorist who might not care about whether or not a state is still part of the US. No one is going to want to give up the freedom and security that the United States offers. You're more likely to see another country want to become a state than see a state want to become another country. Besides the US can't invade you if your already a state...LOL.

Because the most powerful nation in the world is a terrorist minded, controlled, corporate run, destructive force ruining the plantet and trying to kill everyone who doesn't argee with them. The rest of the world would like nothing more than for you to be gone. You push them around and you take their people and torture them, you slam trade restriction on those people who do not buy your "poisonous products" like McDonalds and Phillip Morris.
I mean you bombed your own people 3 goddamned times. Proof written right in the back pages of YOUR OWN newspapers, until it's swept under the rug. '93 world trade center, FBI admit to giving the bomb to the terrorist, the "terrorist" parks away from the pillar to save the building... All those people owe their lives to "an iraqi". 94 OK city, all evidence showed 3 bombs on the scene, FBI was there dismantling the ones that failed to detonate, all over the OK channel 4 news, live when it happened. 9/11 Planes were showed to be bombed, extra buildings (#7) fell and nothing hit it, the pentagon is a fucking joke you can see with your own eyes no plane hit it, just a cruise missile. It's all a fucking farce and your own government is bombing you. If you are too stupid to see the corporate interests playing you like a fiddle you should watch more of the daily show.

You live in your little war scared terrorist alert freaking scarey as hell gun toting nutjob land and we'll live in the democratic free countries who want to put this warmongering Pax Americana Empire in the ground.

Sorry, I have lots of American friends, but now, it's totally insane, you think your free, on Dec 9th you signed the Patriot Act 2 suspending almost all your civil rights and you seem to think your free an democratic. Hell, for the first time in 50 years the UN was not allowed to count your ballots.. I wonder why not? You now live in a dictatorship and you are too scared to admit what atrocities your own military are doing.

So.... Go live in denial until the day comes. My friends are already getting the hell out before the day comes when the other countries don't like your Oil grabbing money grubbing killing torturous ways.

I will place money the by 2006 your army will be invading Iran. It's already happening. The New Yorker, read it.

The chance that a state (or a bunch of states) will secede from the union is possible. But i doubt it would happen in the near future. It is perfectly possible for a state to secede if it wished to. There is nothing in the constitution that takes away that right.

1861-1865 a period of Civil War.

In that war, the North won and thus ended the question of whether or not a state can seceed.

Krackonis - your comments are ignorant. Just think what the world would be like without the US. Europe would be either nazi or communist. America is also the OLDEST democracy and led the world in democratic principles. You can continue to believe your ridiculous conspiracy theories. The world would be a much worse place today if the US wasn't around to baby-sit.

As for the issue at hand - the US will not break apart. If it does - then I have my army ready to attack NY. If it wasn't for being a union of states - the states would be at constant war - that is one of the reasons we formed this union in the first place. Right before the Constitutional Convention, Connecticut and NJ were preparing to invade NY while NY was techincally invading Pennsylvania and claiming their land. The same reasons the EU is forming, are the same reasons the US formed 225 years ago (economic, joint military, keep peace between the states and form a more powerful whole).

As for California being the 5th largest economy in the world and having the unique distinction - that isn't entirely true. If you broke pretty much any one of the states - it would end up being between the 5th and 10th largest economy in the world.

Here is an interesting report which was put out by a Swedish economic think tank - EU Versus USA (http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf) (pdf) It compares the US standard of living to the EU15 and breaks the states up and compares each EU country to the individual States (as comparisons with the US should be done). Only Luxemberg comes out really well. The rest of the countries would be considered around the 5th poorest state if they were part of the US. The largest EU economies - France, Germany and the UK would all be considered the 5th poorest state when comparing GDP per capita.

BTW - NJ has a higher GDP per capita than California - NJ is number 7th while California is 9th.

The US isn't going to go anywhere, if anything parts of Mexico or Canada or both with become US states. The next state will most likely be Puerto Rico though. The last election they had Puerto Rico only missed voting for statehood by a couple of points - while indepedence is all the way in single digits.

Because the most powerful nation in the world is a terrorist minded, controlled, corporate run, destructive force ruining the plantet and trying to kill everyone who doesn't argee with them. The rest of the world would like nothing more than for you to be gone. You push them around and you take their people and torture them, you slam trade restriction on those people who do not buy your "poisonous products" like McDonalds and Phillip Morris.
I mean you bombed your own people 3 goddamned times. Proof written right in the back pages of YOUR OWN newspapers, until it's swept under the rug. '93 world trade center, FBI admit to giving the bomb to the terrorist, the "terrorist" parks away from the pillar to save the building... All those people owe their lives to "an iraqi". 94 OK city, all evidence showed 3 bombs on the scene, FBI was there dismantling the ones that failed to detonate, all over the OK channel 4 news, live when it happened. 9/11 Planes were showed to be bombed, extra buildings (#7) fell and nothing hit it, the pentagon is a fucking joke you can see with your own eyes no plane hit it, just a cruise missile. It's all a fucking farce and your own government is bombing you. If you are too stupid to see the corporate interests playing you like a fiddle you should watch more of the daily show.

You live in your little war scared terrorist alert freaking scarey as hell gun toting nutjob land and we'll live in the democratic free countries who want to put this warmongering Pax Americana Empire in the ground.

Sorry, I have lots of American friends, but now, it's totally insane, you think your free, on Dec 9th you signed the Patriot Act 2 suspending almost all your civil rights and you seem to think your free an democratic. Hell, for the first time in 50 years the UN was not allowed to count your ballots.. I wonder why not? You now live in a dictatorship and you are too scared to admit what atrocities your own military are doing.

So.... Go live in denial until the day comes. My friends are already getting the hell out before the day comes when the other countries don't like your Oil grabbing money grubbing killing torturous ways.

I will place money the by 2006 your army will be invading Iran. It's already happening. The New Yorker, read it.

Thanks, we love you too.

I will place money the by 2006 your army will be invading Iran. It's already happening. The New Yorker, read it.

I'll take this bet!

I wish South Florida could secede as its own country because I'm getting tired of the national government, and to a lesser degree the existing state government. I just fear that the Hispanics would vote for massive immigration allowances and we'd be flooded by uneducated, non-english speaking central/upper south American that vote as a big catholic conservative block. I think America should push back on the Hispanics a bit and get more of our guys down here and in their countries. One day we'll be able to break off as part of the Neo-Atlantian Carribbean Empire, which combines the island's easygoing attitude and amazing environment with America's vastly powerful tourism development abilities. Then we use all the NASA scientists we took in the breakoff and have them start a project to develop huge satellite launching facilities that operate all year(except hurricane season) and we take the global communications market by storm. Cities like Las Vegas will be encouraged on almost every island and all sorts of gimmicky resorts and themeparks will be made. We are positioned perfectly to serve the vacation needs of the developing South American countries, and hopefully the still economically stable US, and also in a good position to sieze the Panama canal.

We then invest in creating gambling cities in India so people have places to waste away their newfound money. If Iraq has stabilized it would be a perfect place to make another few cities, following the new wave of Americanization, hopefully we will be able to out-compete the other resort countries in the region with our large corruption market.

Eventually, Neo-Atlantis would control the entire world via corruption and its multi-quintillion dollar tourism/gambling industry. Also we'll make lunar resorts.

And the best part is, we won't be Americans, so people will have better reason to trust us at first(Hey mon, now deh Jahmaicah province can come to you, intraducing deh newest Atlantian resort in deh middle east......)

John Titor (http://www.johntitor.com/) can't be right.. he just can't be!

My humanities teacher put forward to me a theory of his, that the United States Of America will eventually be almost individual countries. For example, Florida no longer being a state but its own country. He believes this because the large opposing political views still remain between the northern states and southern states since your civil war. With the large financial power some states have eg. Florida again. do not require the backing of the rest of America, they could live independetly as there own free country. If this happens to 1 country than the rest would soon follow! This almost making the USA nothing more than the EU!
Give me your views on this!
Your humanities teacher sounds like liberal nutjob and you sound like a naive child stupid enough to listen to him. Don't worry, though, once upon a time I listened to my crazy hippy teachers, too. :D

Btw in case you didn't pick up on it, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that that will ever happen.

mutiny is always possible :sniper:

mutiny is always possible :sniper:
Mutiny against what? The government? (BTW Minus 5 stud points for using a gun smily in a debate.)

We have three parts:

#1 The Liberals

#2 The Moderates

#3 The Conservatives

Where do Libertarians, Comunist, Socialist, Anarchist, Facist, Racist (is ther a party lol), etc fit?

Nov 2004 was a big split, but the Moderates can swing one way or another. Enough of them swung towards Bush this November.


The Liberals want to ignore morals and family values, push the limits of free-speech, outlaw religon, make the government bigger, support socialism, and let the terrorists do whatever they want and never fight back.

Don't lie to us. No liberal wants to ban religion except Communist and even than rarely. "let the terrorist do whatever they want" is baiting and trolling. You know for a fact that is a lie.
How bias and partisan can you get? Ignire morals and family values? Gee, how come liberals have families...and aren't shooting everyone or breaking the law all the time? Maybe they have morals and family values too. Gasp!

The Conservatives want to enforce morals and family values on everyone, put limits on free-speech, force religion on people, make the government smaller, have everyone support themselves and stop having the government do it, and fight the terrorists whereever they are even if there is no valid reason to do so.

Moderates are somewhere inbetween the Liberals and Conservatives.
Enforce...okay take away social rights.
Put limits on freedom...even if only speech...
Force religion...I am thinking that the Constitution means nothing to these people than...
Lately Conservatives have made Govt bigger. You have to get bigger to enforce those religions, limits on fre speech, and family values forced on people.
So that is why Bush doesn't like SS because Govt is helping you and he fears that people will like govt than.
Okay, I have to admit you have me here. Iraq didn't have many valid reasons and we fought terrorist after the fact so cool.

Many you were exaggerating Liberals, but almost dead on for conservatives.

The Liberals want to ignore morals and family values, push the limits of free-speech, outlaw religon, make the government bigger, support socialism, and let the terrorists do whatever they want and never fight back.

The Conservatives want to enforce morals and family values on everyone, put limits on free-speech, force religion on people, make the government smaller, have everyone support themselves and stop having the government do it, and fight the terrorists whereever they are even if there is no valid reason to do so.

Moderates are somewhere inbetween the Liberals and Conservatives.


"The difference between democrats and republicans is that the democrat blows, and the republican sucks..." --Lewis Black

No. It's been around a lot longer than the EU. The opposing views in the US are between urban and rural areas (in fact, between urban and suburban).

If you look at the county by county (instead of state by state) map of the last election, you will see that the red areas are all of the rural areas and most of the suburbs while the blue areas are mostly urban.

A few exceptions here and there, but it is not a North/South thing.


Exactly! I wish more people got this. Some good maps here:
http://obsidianorder.blogspot.com/2004/11/red-and-blue-reprise-2004.html

There are *no* large cities that vote heavily republican. There are *many* large cities that vote heavily democrat.

How bias and partisan can you get?


Many you were exaggerating Liberals, but almost dead on for conservatives.

How bias and partisan can you get?

How bias and partisan can you get?
Well it is true that conservatives want smaller government and everyone to support themselves, but personally, I don't see what's wrong with that.

I want to be the first Emperor of New Jersey. Ah hell, I got the feeling I'm gonna get flamed with gay jokes. Damn you McGreevy!

Edit: I would like to add that it would be nice to see the West Coast, Northeast, and Illinois(I could never spell this state right) just out right form the Democratic States of Non-F***ed America.

Where as the lovely South and Midwest would form the Ruthless Imperial Dictatorship of Republica. Combined national IQ a little bit higher than the population. :)

"The difference between democrats and republicans is that the democrat blows, and the republican sucks..." --Lewis Black

You mean the Democrat gets blown.

Exactly. I think any question of a state leaving the Union was addressed with the Civil War.

The Civil War didn't start because of anyones belief that succession wasn't valid, perse. If it was, then there would be no need to abandon or give-up the other forts they had.

It happened because both sides provoked it (and perhaps wanted it). The north said it was to leave fort sumter, and didn't...the souths general overemphasised the north's threat and led an attack. From that point on they both did many aggressive actions...

Frankly they were both asses. My view of government is completely centrist to either of their sides.

Now-a-days, it's evitable that political change will happen. Whether it will be rational or not, is up to the few men whom think.

What if political ideas had to be paid for by the knuckleheads that believed in them...I bet we would find many centrist in the world, and quickly.

There is the northeast, the extreme left;
The extreme left? The Northeast is the centre of US capitalist consumerism. New York is legendary for shopping! New Jersey is notoriously industrial. What's this left-wing extremist talk?

John Titor (http://www.johntitor.com/) can't be right.. he just can't be!

What a meme that is....

; )

You may as well state that Paris is going to secede from France, and Hamburg from Germany.
Well at the time of your civil war, Germany was a bunch of small countries. Now it is a federal republic like America. Funny, their north is liberal and their south is conservative too, but not to the extreme of the American south.

My humanities teacher put forward to me a theory of his, that the United States Of America will eventually be almost individual countries. For example, Florida no longer being a state but its own country. He believes this because the large opposing political views still remain between the northern states and southern states since your civil war. With the large financial power some states have eg. Florida again. do not require the backing of the rest of America, they could live independetly as there own free country. If this happens to 1 country than the rest would soon follow! This almost making the USA nothing more than the EU!
Give me your views on this!

It's a rarity that a teacher has any idea what the fucks he's talking about. On top of that, I doubt he's basing his statement off of anything concrete.

just curious.
Do ethnic Hawaiians want to become an independent
kingdom, republic etc.
Can they achieve it?

Well, they were a sovereign kingdom until retarded white farmers went over there are bought land. Eventually they led an armed insurrection against the government in place there, and the US refused to annex it for a long time.

Well at the time of your civil war, Germany was a bunch of small countries. Now it is a federal republic like America. Funny, their north is liberal and their south is conservative too, but not to the extreme of the American south.

The whole 'North-South' schism is a journalistic conceit, some parts of the US south are very liberal (Florida) some parts of the US north are very conservative (ND).

The US split really is an urban/suburban split as someone mentioned above.

At the time of it's founding America was also a bunch of small countries... well if you accept that the thirteen colonies were independent anyway.

Remember the last time this country wanted to break up?

Add NUKES.

No break ups. Especially not California, because Texas would hurl the army at us in an instant.
true but california has a big army-not so much main forces but secondary(reserve units) as well as a few special forces, such as the green brets. it also helps that much of the technology used by the army is developed here. for example if we were to split up california would most likely have air suppiority. do i think that the USA will break up, not likely although some states could possible be there own countries i.e. California, there are to many benefits to staying together, such as a larger military force.

true but california has a big army-not so much main forces but secondary(reserve units) as well as a few special forces, such as the green brets. it also helps that much of the technology used by the army is developed here. for example if we were to split up california would most likely have air suppiority. do i think that the USA will break up, not likely although some states could possible be there own countries i.e. California, there are to many benefits to staying together, such as a larger military force.

If you looked at a county by county map of California, you would realize that the blues are crammed tightly into the urban areas. If they stepped outside of those areas (where all the food grows), they wouldn't last a second, because all the reds live there.

Really, if you see the same county by county map of the whole country, you'll see the little islands of blue.

Well, it could happen, but I just can't see the military letting it happen. Nevertheless, the possibility is still there, and California's so damn liberal that not only could it secede, but it could also do extremely well on its own. After all, it is actually the fifth richest country/state in the entire world. Plus, once California does secede (hypothetically), the other states will follow, because it will be just like Europe in the eighteen hundreds with the ideas of 'nationalism' there.

Well, it could happen, but I just can't see the military letting it happen. Nevertheless, the possibility is still there, and California's so damn liberal that not only could it secede, but it could also do extremely well on its own. After all, it is actually the fifth richest country/state in the entire world. Plus, once California does secede (hypothetically), the other states will follow, because it will be just like Europe in the eighteen hundreds with the ideas of 'nationalism' there.

Can't happen. You could have San Francisco and Los Angeles secede, and some of the other major urban areas, as they are solidly blue.

But the rest of the state, including most of the suburbs and all of the rural areas are red.

The extreme left? The Northeast is the centre of US capitalist consumerism. New York is legendary for shopping! New Jersey is notoriously industrial. What's this left-wing extremist talk?

For one thing, those businessmen are in the minority. For another thing, New York and New Jersey are typicall classified as Mid-Atlantic (though they are quite liberal). I was referring to the Northeast, otherwise known as New England. They are the states which support liberal causes, most notably, Gay Civil Unions in Vermont and Gay Marriage in Massachusetts.

With the large financial power some states have eg. Florida again. do not require the backing of the rest of America, they could live independetly as there own free country.

I've got two words that can easily debunk this whole scenario: hurricane season.

just curious.
Do ethnic Hawaiians want to become an independent
kingdom, republic etc.
Can they achieve it?

Yes, to your first question, and not a snowball's chance in Hell to your second.