NationStates Jolt Archive

you might as well say "theres no universe because it was just there". we all know theres a universe, but if you really believe what you said, then what created the universe? if you say "the big bang", then what created the atom for the big bang and so on and so forth? theres too much physically and nonphysically that we humans still dont understand.

I know that it wasn't just here, I do however understand the big-bang theory more than most and that as well is a load of hokie. I have other theories about how the universe was created, each of them as ludicrous as the big-bang theory, but all of these theorys are easier to understand than religious views on creation. Most of my theories rely on the theorie that there is no such thing as time, a subject that me and my friend have discussed at length and finally found it pretty conclusive, there is no physical definition of time.

Yay for Big Bang. Talk about imagination. Seriously, if you had to come up with such a ludicrous idea, and actually make it sound plausible, you would have to have more imagination than the people who invented all those annoying religions (Bhuddism, Muslim-ism [sorry, kidding: Islam], Jainism, Sikhism [is that how you spell it?], Hinduism, and the like).

But, did you know, that the term "Big Bang" was actually invented by someone, while speaking on the radio, who hated the theory, and was making fun of it by giving it a stupid name. Now the name makes even stupid people think they know what it's all about.

I know that it wasn't just here, I do however understand the big-bang theory more than most and that as well is a load of hokie. I have other theories about how the universe was created, each of them as ludicrous as the big-bang theory, but all of these theorys are easier to understand than religious views on creation. Most of my theories rely on the theorie that there is no such thing as time, a subject that me and my friend have discussed at length and finally found it pretty conclusive, there is no physical definition of time.

or perhaps you could say it is a spatial dimension, and that could solve that.

...is a load of hokie...

No offense, and, when I start debating, my conversation will not take on the quality of such friendly banter, but, what is hokie?

But, did you know, that the term "Big Bang" was actually invented by someone, while speaking on the radio, who hated the theory, and was making fun of it by giving it a stupid name. Now the name makes even stupid people think they know what it's all about.

It doesn't surpirse me, the theory is a load of... well i'm not allowed to say it

No offense, and, when I start debating, my conversation will not take on the quality of such friendly banter, but, what is hokie?

hokies a word i've invented to replace a swear word.

The existence of God cannot be proven, and if it is proven, then God doesn't exist.

Until then, it's an open question.

or perhaps you could say it is a spatial dimension, and that could solve that.

There are a large number of quantum physicists who believe that time is a fourth dimension, that we can only move in one direction through, and atoms exist in, not three, not four, but eleven distinctive dimensions.
It's very complicated.

The existence of God cannot be proven, and if it is proven, then God doesn't exist.

You are quite close-minded, my friend.

hokies a word i've invented to replace a swear word.

Ah, yes. I have a tendancy to do that as well, but only while playing XBox Live.

The words usually sound German-ish.

There are a large number of quantum physicists who believe that time is a fourth dimension, that we can only move in one direction through, and atoms exist in, not three, not four, but eleven distinctive dimensions.
It's very complicated.

the M-theory is with 11 dimensions. quantum physics has 4 i thought
and the quantum theory and M-theory are two different ones.

or perhaps you could say it is a spatial dimension, and that could solve that.

what the hell are you on about. "time" has absolutely nothing to do with space, time has nothing to do with anything. time doesn't exist. its something someones invented and everyone believes them. time is non-existant, you find me a definition and example, in nature of time, don't start talking about the moon and the oceans cus that ain't what i'm on about.

Holy Gravedig, Batman!

Prove he doesn't

Er, no. This thread is the "Prove God exists" thread, not the "Prove God does not exist" thread. Besides, you can't really prove something doesn't exist, because there's always the possibility of being proven wrong by discovering it's existence. (Assuming the principle of falsibility, which I doubt you do but oh well.)

However, you can prove something exists by showing enough convincing evidence of it's existence.

However,

But
you must remember just because you think God, Jesus, & the Holy Sprit
doesn't exist ... it doesn't make it true. I guarantee you they do ... NOW
I want you to prove me wrong.

That is not convincing or evidential, just a claim. Just because you "guarantee" they do doesn't make it true, by your own logic. So, try another tactic... and why did you gravedig? This thread was just starting to decompose the way I like it. Blah!

what the hell are you on about. "time" has absolutely nothing to do with space, time has nothing to do with anything. time doesn't exist. its something someones invented and everyone believes them. time is non-existant, you find me a definition and example, in nature of time, don't start talking about the moon and the oceans cus that ain't what i'm on about.

i don't think i understand you then. well, change of anything requires distance in a fourth dimension, that wouldn't be spacial time though.

what the hell are you on about. "time" has absolutely nothing to do with space, time has nothing to do with anything. time doesn't exist. its something someones invented and everyone believes them. time is non-existant, you find me a definition and example, in nature of time, don't start talking about the moon and the oceans cus that ain't what i'm on about.

You seem to believe that nothing exists! Do you believe you don't even exist?

Holy Gravedig, Batman!



Er, no. This thread is the "Prove God exists" thread, not the "Prove God does not exist" thread. Besides, you can't really prove something doesn't exist, because there's always the possibility of being proven wrong by discovering it's existence. (Assuming the principle of falsibility, which I doubt you do but oh well.)

However, you can prove something exists by showing enough convincing evidence of it's existence.

However,



That is not convincing or evidential, just a claim. Just because you "guarantee" they do doesn't make it true, by your own logic. So, try another tactic... and why did you gravedig? This thread was just starting to decompose the way I like it. Blah!

You are not a very nice person.

PS: should I begin my 'debate mode' now?

St. Thomas Aquinas's proof
The Immovable Mover
Everything that exists now has had something come before it. There had to be something that existed that wasn't caused by anything but caused everything else. This must be the absolute and almighty: God.

if time is there, why can't we seew it, why can't we touch it and why can't we move it. things that are there must have these three properties. or at least one of them

if time is there, why can't we seew it, why can't we touch it and why can't we move it. things that are there must have these three properties. or at least one of them

you can't do any of those to space.

Ooh, religious debate. Should I take the bait? Should I join and wrack my brain so as to do absolutely nothing to the opinions of geeky, 30-year-old gamers in their mothers' basements? Should I delve into the strange areas of grey thought and unknown horizons? For the sake of fun?

Okay.

So, someone tell me, what's going on here? What are we currently debating about. I know what the original subject was, but debates morph over time, especially if they're longer than 10 pages and constantly updated.
Theres allways some asshole whos trying to convince themselfs there so fucking cool.

St. Thomas Aquinas's proof
The Immovable Mover
Everything that exists now has had something come before it. There had to be something that existed that wasn't caused by anything but caused everything else. This must be the absolute and almighty: God.

To play the athei- I mean devil's advocate here, what if what caused everything was the Big Bang, that enormous cosmic coincidence that ended up making a bunch of galaxies in only a few billion years. Or evolution, which created millions of nonsentient species and only one that has the capacity to think.

Theres allways some asshole whos trying to convince themselfs there so fucking cool.

Me? Cool? Are you absolutely serious? Really? Because I'm NOT.

I wouldn't even bother trying to make myself consider that I am cool. Takes too much energy.
I just like debate, and I'm getting over writing my story, so I still got that style of writing in me.

Why would the big bang be absolute and almighty? It is a physical thing that lies within the scope of understanding. It is not absolute and perfect. The big bang represents all that is imperfect because the big bang caused everything that was was unified to be divided and broken.

if time is there, why can't we seew it, why can't we touch it and why can't we move it. things that are there must have these three properties. or at least one of them

Supposedly, we only have a limited sense of time, and can only move in one direction through it and cannot stop it.

Microwaves, radio waves, gamma waves, and every other wavelength besides visible light exists: we can't touch it, we can't see it, we can't manipulate it on our own. However, we see their effects everywhere, from radios to nuclear radiation.

The same applies to time, although we cannot interact with it, the fact that my typing, right now, is not immediate is an effect of time.

I challenge anyone seriously willing*! Prove the existence of God, using this forum and your wits alone, to a heathen such as myself.

Some information for you. December 18, 1995 Time Magazine cover story has some good information in relation to parts of the bible which are historically accurate. I realize this does not address your challenge but thought it might be an interesting read for you. :)

God is the only god that does not command a strict list of laws and codes, but a relationship with him. He loves those that don't know him. He sent his only son to the Earth to die a thousand deaths so that man could live in his house for eternity.

If you question which god is the right one, look to Christianity. God is the only god that is not Fascist. He has walked the Earth that he created himself.

Whether you beleive in Christ Jesus or not, you will be judged for all of your sins and either live in Heaven forever or be thrown into the lake of fire along with satan and hell itsself.

You cannot truly prove the existence of God. If he live in you, you know he is there and you can't prove what is in your very soul.

God is the only god that does not command a strict list of laws and codes, but a relationship with him. He loves those that don't know him. He sent his only son to the Earth to die a thousand deaths so that man could live in his house for eternity.

If you question which god is the right one, look to Christianity. God is the only god that is not Fascist. He has walked the Earth that he created himself.

Whether you beleive in Christ Jesus or not, you will be judged for all of your sins and either live in Heaven forever or be thrown into the lake of fire along with satan and hell itsself.

You cannot truly prove the existence of God. If he live in you, you know he is there and you can't prove what is in your very soul.

fascism is a good thing anyways. and by preventing the worship of other gods that god was trying to create a "one party religion"

Look. If you exist, and I exist, and we all exist, then we were created by something. Lets just say our parrents did that. Who created them? Their parrents, and so forth. Acording to Darwin and many other seemingly knowlagable people, if you go back far enough you get some stuff in an ocean on a barron earth. Who created the earth? Ask many many scientists of sorts, and they will tell you gravity and things of that nature clumped together dust and trash of that sort at (or near) the creation of the solar system. Now, you can continue back forever on who created what and why, but theoretically there has to be a beginning. That beginning, where there was something in existence that was never created that created something is God. THE Creator IS God.


Now, yes. This arguably is just putting a name to something that we do not understand, but what better to put a name to than something we do not understand? How else are we gonna be able to know what we are talking about? And if we cannot talk about it, then how will we EVER understand it? Arguably, people knew things would fall down when dropped, but until Newton put a name to gravity noone new anything about it. :cool:

Because if God doesnt' exist then theirs not any reason to love one another. We might as well start raping and robbing each other.

Also do you want to take the chance taht god will be angry with you atheests and sent you to hell?

Jesus was the living son of god. Our Lord and Savior. That's all the proof you need.

Where did evrything come from if thers no god to create it?

Ok, people do rape and rob each other, and besides there are things called drugs that can make us feel rather out of our minds, does that mean drugs are more powerful than God?

I thought you thought God was all good? Ptscht, can't make up your minds. You know, if God did exist I sure would expect him to make it clear to people what is actually right and wrong or else religion is guess work, well it is guess work anyway.

Are you seriously trying to prove something with something that isn't proven!? :headbang:

Why did something need to create the universe? And say the universe did need to be created then why wouldn't God need to be created? Where did God come from if he created it all!? He created himself? :confused:

They do have some pretty cool logic arguements though:

God is the most powerful in the universe.
You have more power if you exist.
Therefore God exists.

But then you follow it through backwards and basically end up with if God is most powerful then he exists... but if he doesn't exist then he isn't most powerful! :p

If there is a god why do babies die ?

God is the only god that does not command a strict list of laws and codes, but a relationship with him. He loves those that don't know him. He sent his only son to the Earth to die a thousand deaths so that man could live in his house for eternity.

If you question which god is the right one, look to Christianity. God is the only god that is not Fascist. He has walked the Earth that he created himself.

Whether you beleive in Christ Jesus or not, you will be judged for all of your sins and either live in Heaven forever or be thrown into the lake of fire along with satan and hell itsself.

You cannot truly prove the existence of God. If he lives in you, you know he is there and you can't prove what is in your very soul.

I sincerely love and thank you for posting the truth here. I've tried it, and close-minded people who debate with me call it 'flamebait' and 'idiotic.'

Who knows, maybe there's someone new here who will believe it and have their life changed.

And one more thing, the lake of fire is only after the Final Judgment, after the Tribulation and the fall of Satan, the False Prophet, and the Beast. Until such time, it's just hell for you, baby.

God doesn't exist because it's a ridiculous, illogical notion. Scientific proof will come to light pretty soon, I guarentee it. I think people are entitled to their own beliefs, but personally I believe the idea of 'God' in itself proves he does not exist because it is such an absurd one.

God lets us decide our fate. If we choose the right path, then we are rewarded and God is happy. If we enter the broad gates, then we are lost and God becomes sad.

If there is a god why do babies die ?

"Answer a fool according to his folly and you shall make him wise in his own eyes."

I can't answer that, but, even if I could, I wouldn't. It is not for humans, the created, to question God's, the Creator, will and plan. We're just a part of it and we are faced with the choice to go along with it willingly, and reap the benefits, or try futilely to resist it, and face the consequences.

Look. If you exist, and I exist, and we all exist, then we were created by something. Lets just say our parrents did that. Who created them? Their parrents, and so forth. Acording to Darwin and many other seemingly knowlagable people, if you go back far enough you get some stuff in an ocean on a barron earth. Who created the earth? Ask many many scientists of sorts, and they will tell you gravity and things of that nature clumped together dust and trash of that sort at (or near) the creation of the solar system. Now, you can continue back forever on who created what and why, but theoretically there has to be a beginning. That beginning, where there was something in existence that was never created that created something is God. THE Creator IS God.


what if it was that nothing ever had nothing before it?

personally, I think all of you are missing the point of the Babal fish arguement from Douglas Adams. I am an atheist, but I will never be able to disprove the existance of god since any theist can fall back on "But God is an omnipotent, omniscient being, There is absolutely nothing he cannot do, if what he (the vast majority of societies are sexist) does makes no sense or seems illogical or impossible, it is because you are far weaker and stupider than he is." Not only can you not prove the existance of God, but the Babel fish arguement shows you shouldn't. Belief is something that should not have any logical basis, by definition. That's what faith means.

I must admit I do find a lot of religion's ideas very comical! How can you take it seriously? I mean Jesus died 1000 deaths? He died once ffs! Besides he cheated because he came back to life 1000 times so who really cares anyway!?

God doesn't exist because it's a ridiculous, illogical notion. Scientific proof will come to light pretty soon, I guarentee it. I think people are entitled to their own beliefs, but personally I believe the idea of 'God' in itself proves he does not exist because it is such an absurd one.

The Big Bang is absurd, Evolution is absurd, a life without a loving, greater being to guide you is absurd. So, by your own arguments, your life, the Big Bang, and evolution to not exist because of how absurd they are.

I must admit I do find a lot of religion's ideas very comical! How can you take it seriously? I mean Jesus died 1000 deaths? He died once ffs! Besides he cheated because he came back to life 1000 times so who really cares anyway!?

While playing Halo, I saw someone say: "Jesus took three days to respawn, talk about lag."

The Big Bang is absurd, Evolution is absurd, a life without a loving, greater being to guide you is absurd. So, by your own arguments, your life, the Big Bang, and evolution to not exist because of how absurd they are.

but we don't exist.

but we don't exist.

Ooooh... hoohoohoo.
I love this argument:
Cogito, ergo sum. You know what that means? It's a famous Latin quote meaning: "I think, therefore I am."
This is the ultimate weapon to be used against people with opinions such as the quoted one: for it means that, if we have the capacity, the minds to question our own very existence, then we most certainly, undeniably, exist.

Ooooh... hoohoohoo.
I love this argument:
Cogito, ergo sum. You know what that means? It's a famous Latin quote meaning: "I think, therefore I am."
This is the ultimate weapon to be used against people with opinions such as the quoted one: for it means that, if we have the capacity, the minds to question our own very existence, then we most certainly, undeniably, exist.

but thinking is just electrical impulses mixed with chemicals everyonce and a while.

While it would be theoretically possible to prove the existence of a sentient, omnipotent, omniscient being that created everything we know of in the universe (or beyond), I would require an actual meeting with such a being, as well as demonstration of such levels of power in order to believe in "God".

I do believe there are many things in the universe about which we know nothing, and even more things in the universe about which we base our knowledge on incorrect assumptions.

However, I do not believe it to be possible to disprove the existence of God. The only reliable method of disproving a theory is to prove something else that is mutually exclusive to the issue in question. It is impossible to prove there is no God because there is nothing to prove that makes God's existence impossible.

What if religion was created to control the masses. To give then guide lines by which to live i.e. the ten commandmnts.

Or perhaps god gave moses the comandments because he was disgusted by what he saw when he looked upon his creation.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/thumbs.html

An interesting series of questions regarding the existance of the Christian God.

What if religion was created to control the masses. To give then guide lines by which to live i.e. the ten commandmnts.

Or perhaps god gave moses the comandments because he was disgusted by what he saw when he looked upon his creation.

Was it Marx, Nietzche, or Machiavelli who wrote that first part?

Actually, the second part is more true than you might know.

Although I do not believe the existance of God can be proven or disproven. Here is why I do not. I look at Christian principles, myth, and history, and I see the exact same things that has been going on in other religions. Christian principles are not new. Christian myth is derieved from other myth. Christian history is one long series of the Church being hypocites to its own principles. Why does the universe need a god? Why does there have to be a higher mind for thier to be goodness in the world? Do you need the threat of hell and the promise of heaven to be good. In my opinion, some is good if they are altruistic in the heart, not because they want to be rewarded. I don't know what the answers are to all the questions, but I know this, the second anyone declares they are right beyond all doubt, then they are almost certainly wrong.

One final thought: If Christianity is right, then both Buddha and Ghandi, being complete heathens, are going to burn in hell for all eternity. Indeed, anyone not of thier faith, no matter how virtuous, shall suffer the same fate. Why?

All I have to say about this, because I've already given up far too much of my time butting heads: Evidence that Demands a Verdict (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785243631/104-8375902-3283967?v=glance)
Get it. Read it.

Although I do not believe the existance of God can be proven or disproven. Here is why I do not. I look at Christian principles, myth, and history, and I see the exact same things that has been going on in other religions. Christian principles are not new. Christian myth is derieved from other myth. Christian history is one long series of the Church being hypocites to its own principles. Why does the universe need a god? Why does there have to be a higher mind for thier to be goodness in the world? Do you need the threat of hell and the promise of heaven to be good. In my opinion, some is good if they are altruistic in the heart, not because they want to be rewarded. I don't know what the answers are to all the questions, but I know this, the second anyone declares they are right beyond all doubt, then they are almost certainly wrong.

One final thought: If Christianity is right, then both Buddha and Ghandi, being complete heathens, are going to burn in hell for all eternity. Indeed, anyone not of thier faith, no matter how virtuous, shall suffer the same fate. Why?

"For we are saved by grace, not by works, so that no man can boast."
There's your answer

but thinking is just electrical impulses mixed with chemicals everyonce and a while.
The mind, and it's thoughts, may be caused by certain things, but they, themselves, are intangible. If we did not exist, then the complexities of mind and thought would not either. Thus, because our minds exist, and we are capable of thinking, we do exist.

While it would be theoretically possible to prove the existence of a sentient, omnipotent, omniscient being that created everything we know of in the universe (or beyond), I would require an actual meeting with such a being, as well as demonstration of such levels of power in order to believe in "God".

I do believe there are many things in the universe about which we know nothing, and even more things in the universe about which we base our knowledge on incorrect assumptions.

However, I do not believe it to be possible to disprove the existence of God. The only reliable method of disproving a theory is to prove something else that is mutually exclusive to the issue in question. It is impossible to prove there is no God because there is nothing to prove that makes God's existence impossible.

You need a meeting with God to believe in him?
"Oh ye of little faith, why do ye doubt?"
Even if such a meeting were possible 'twixt an inferior human being and an almighty God with such glory that all mortal people who enter his presence die, completely overwhemed, it would simply not happen. Christianity is a religion, nay, a relationship of faith, and those who need proof to have that relationship are condemned, lest they turn around, because their hearts are hardened to such a point where they will not believe.

You need a meeting with God to believe in him?
"Oh ye of little faith, why do ye doubt?"
Even if such a meeting were possible 'twixt an inferior human being and an almighty God with such glory that all mortal people who enter his presence die, completely overwhemed, it would simply not happen. Christianity is a religion, nay, a relationship of faith, and those who need proof to have that relationship are condemned, lest they turn around, because their hearts are hardened to such a point where they will not believe.

So god is unable to show himself to me directly without overwhelming me ... does not sound very omnipotent to me

All I have to say about this, because I've already given up far too much of my time butting heads: Evidence that Demands a Verdict (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785243631/104-8375902-3283967?v=glance)
Get it. Read it.

Or, don't. And save yourself the time you might waste reading Christian apologetics with logical holes you could drive a Mack truck through.

Yupaenu

Here is an example of satan.
All he is doing is trying to disprove Christianity because he cannot comprehend the love that God shows him.

You need a meeting with God to believe in him?
"Oh ye of little faith, why do ye doubt?"
Even if such a meeting were possible 'twixt an inferior human being and an almighty God with such glory that all mortal people who enter his presence die, completely overwhemed, it would simply not happen. Christianity is a religion, nay, a relationship of faith, and those who need proof to have that relationship are condemned, lest they turn around, because their hearts are hardened to such a point where they will not believe.


I love this.

The all-powerful, all-loving God has set up the rules in such a way that, if I use the reason She gave me to doubt her existence, I am "condemned?

Trite. Circular. Self-defeating.

Care to try again?

Yupaenu

Here is an example of satan.
All he is doing is trying to disprove Christianity because he cannot comprehend the love that God shows him.

Um, I think calling someone "satan" would be flaming.

But such insults are so very Christian of you.

I know he does, I am not required to prove it to you. God only requires me to speak to you of his existance, his love for you and his wish that no man be unsaved ... but he also gives you free will ... so it is up to you to make your own determination. The results of your decision determines if you can be saved.

I'm a believer. I was talking to SB. Don't get overly zealous to the point that you don't read the whole post.

And still, I've yet to see any hard reasoning (or fact, for that matter) that God doesn't exist. A good debater doesn't open an arguement without an opposing viewpoint. If you can't back up your side, why should we back ours? We have our faith, and that's good enough for us.

I'll tell you why I believe in the Almighty (and I'm a liberal democrat, natch): there are too many good things that have happened in my life for there not to be a God. I have a wonderful family, a wonderful church, and many wonderful opportunities in my life. Now, you're probably thinking, "Shouldn't God give that to everyone?" In my opinion, He does, or at least He tries. However, humans are given free will by His grace, and either they or Satan will mess things up. Look to Genesis with the Garden of Eden; all it took was an apple and human stupidity to screw us over.

Do you want a concrete example? OK, I'll do my best. My family is related to nobility in Poland/Russia/Lithuania, many of which were killed in the Russian Revolution and previous uprisings. We had given up most of our hope in solving our case because we couldn't bind some of the facts together. So, we prayed and prayed and prayed to God for some help to get our case moving again. A few days (and prayers) later, I just typed in our name in Google and there was a new link at the tope of the first page to a book pretty much outlining our history. I contacted the Library of Congress, and they sent us a copy. We can now make our case over in Europe. This is only one of many reasons why I believe in God.

You don't believe, and that's fine. According to free will, you can make that decision for yourself. Do I think you're going to go to Hell simply because you don't believe? No, I don't. If you're a good person, then I'd think that'd be enough to see the Kingdom. Some of the more militant Christians will disagree (and I use the term losely after seeing some past comments from them), and they can because, again, free will.

Want something else? Look at the Pope. If there's anyone who showed what the power of faith and God could do, John Paul II did.

That's my arguement. I'd be happy to hear your points.

:cool: As European Republic said, the burden of proof lies on you (the atheist). :cool: Some of the many evidences of their being a God (the Christian God, the only God....the rest are made up). The impossibility (not improbability) of the spontaneous generation of information and knowledge out of nowhere (we call it DNA). The impossibility (not improbability) of a cell 1/10 the size of the smallest cell, being spontaneously generated. All statistics on spontaneous generation, no matter how optomistic, and no matter what they focus on, all exceed 1/10^50 by large margins...and anything that has a chance of 1/10^50 is considered impossible. :cool: The 2nd law of thermodynamics. Disorder increases, order decreases in the universe (and the open system argument doesn't work). Therefore, once this mystical Big Bang occured....you'd get all the mass in the universe, after it magically ignores the laws of gravity, fly apart evenly in every direction...planets, stars, solar systems, and galaxies would not form. Then, there's the fact that evolution can't work. Natural selection keeps evolution from happening, and the lack of mutations that add genetic information stops it, and the fact that there exists norms in kinds of animals...breed, for example, a fruit fry to have more or less hairs....and after a certain limit, it will go sterile. And, to end this...well, where the matter come from? If it were eternal, and always was, the universe would already experienced heat death....and nothing would be happening....even Einstein discovered that the universe had a beginning while working on relativity...he added a constant though to get rid of the fact since he was a deist.

And to the where did God come from-He is eternal, and always was, and always will be.


As God says, "the fool says in his heart, 'there is no God.'"

As G.K. Chesterton said, Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found hard and not tried. The Cat-Tribe, this one's for you :)

The Shadow-Kai, "good" people will spiritually die because apart from God is death-and they did not submit to God and accept Jesus as Lord....

"To our Christian friends, merry Christmas, to your Jewish friends, happy Hannakuh, to our atheist friends, good luck."

:cool: As European Republic said, the burden of proof lies on you (the atheist). :cool: Some of the many evidences of their being a God (the Christian God, the only God....the rest are made up). The impossibility (not improbability) of the spontaneous generation of information and knowledge out of nowhere (we call it DNA). The impossibility (not improbability) of a cell 1/10 the size of the smallest cell, being spontaneously generated. All statistics on spontaneous generation, no matter how optomistic, and no matter what they focus on, all exceed 1/10^50 by large margins...and anything that has a chance of 1/10^50 is considered impossible. :cool: The 2nd law of thermodynamics. Disorder increases, order decreases in the universe (and the open system argument doesn't work). Therefore, once this mystical Big Bang occured....you'd get all the mass in the universe, after it magically ignores the laws of gravity, fly apart evenly in every direction...planets, stars, solar systems, and galaxies would not form. Then, there's the fact that evolution can't work. Natural selection keeps evolution from happening, and the lack of mutations that add genetic information stops it, and the fact that there exists norms in kinds of animals...breed, for example, a fruit fry to have more or less hairs....and after a certain limit, it will go sterile. And, to end this...well, where the matter come from? If it were eternal, and always was, the universe would already experienced heat death....and nothing would be happening....even Einstein discovered that the universe had a beginning while working on relativity...he added a constant though to get rid of the fact since he was a deist.

And to the where did God come from-He is eternal, and always was, and always will be.


As God says, "the fool says in his heart, 'there is no God.'"

As G.K. Chesterton said, Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found hard and not tried. The Cat-Tribe, this one's for you :)

The Shadow-Kai, "good" people will spiritually die because apart from God is death-and they did not submit to God and accept Jesus as Lord....

"To our Christian friends, merry Christmas, to your Jewish friends, happy Hannakuh, to our atheist friends, good luck."


Lol I love that one fell swoop you try to push burden of proof off the positive statement to the negitive

Sorry thats not how it works :)

(the Christian God, the only God....the rest are made up)

I wouldn't go that far. To me, other religions are worshiping the same God, but just in different ways. "In my Father's house, there are many rooms" to me isn't literal, but a way of saying that many religions worship God.

As for the stuff on evolution, again, I have a different take. God worked hand-in-hand with evolution to create us. "A grain of sand" could also mean "a single celled organism," as no one then even knew what a cell was. We won't really ever know.

How about less from the believers and more from the non-believers? The whole reason I posted that was so that you can provide your own points to counter.

You can't prove that god exists, nor can you prove that it doesn't exist. 'Sides, it's pretty pointless to argue about the proof of a thing that only exists in myths so far.

I think god is as real as Zeus, Jupiter, orcs or goblins.

Also... "Some of the many evidences of their being a God (the Christian God, the only God....the rest are made up)."

Mhmmm... So Christianity has the only real god? Riiiiiiight... If that's the only real god, then I say fuck him. Then again, prove that it's the only god and the rest is made up. Honestly... sometimes I really hate those western religious zealots.

Honestly... sometimes I really hate those western religious zealots.

You and me both. I'm an American and I can't stand the big ones (especially the televangelists... they just anger me).

As G.K. Chesterton said, Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found hard and not tried. The Cat-Tribe, this one's for you :)

How very special. I would think people have tried to prove Christianity is rational for over 2000 years.

:cool: As European Republic said, the burden of proof lies on you (the atheist). :cool:

Why? If this is a game of tag, you're it.

Some of the many evidences of their being a God (the Christian God, the only God....the rest are made up).

Any evidence your God is real and the rest are not.

... I didn't think so.


The impossibility (not improbability) of the spontaneous generation of information and knowledge out of nowhere (we call it DNA). The impossibility (not improbability) of a cell 1/10 the size of the smallest cell, being spontaneously generated. All statistics on spontaneous generation, no matter how optomistic, and no matter what they focus on, all exceed 1/10^50 by large margins...and anything that has a chance of 1/10^50 is considered impossible. :cool: The 2nd law of thermodynamics. Disorder increases, order decreases in the universe (and the open system argument doesn't work). Therefore, once this mystical Big Bang occured....you'd get all the mass in the universe, after it magically ignores the laws of gravity, fly apart evenly in every direction...planets, stars, solar systems, and galaxies would not form. Then, there's the fact that evolution can't work. Natural selection keeps evolution from happening, and the lack of mutations that add genetic information stops it, and the fact that there exists norms in kinds of animals...breed, for example, a fruit fry to have more or less hairs....and after a certain limit, it will go sterile. And, to end this...well, where the matter come from? If it were eternal, and always was, the universe would already experienced heat death....and nothing would be happening....even Einstein discovered that the universe had a beginning while working on relativity...he added a constant though to get rid of the fact since he was a deist.

And to the where did God come from-He is eternal, and always was, and always will be.


I won't even bother with the many scientific and factual fallacies in this silliness.

As your last statement recognizes, the flaw in your entire argument is that none of the things you identify are more "impossible" or less probable than the existence of God.


As God says, "the fool says in his heart, 'there is no God.'"

A quote from a fictional being. How persuasive. :rolleyes:

I don't have to prove - I know!

I'm a believer. I was talking to SB. Don't get overly zealous to the point that you don't read the whole post.

And still, I've yet to see any hard reasoning (or fact, for that matter) that God doesn't exist. A good debater doesn't open an arguement without an opposing viewpoint. If you can't back up your side, why should we back ours? We have our faith, and that's good enough for us.

I'll tell you why I believe in the Almighty (and I'm a liberal democrat, natch): there are too many good things that have happened in my life for there not to be a God. I have a wonderful family, a wonderful church, and many wonderful opportunities in my life. Now, you're probably thinking, "Shouldn't God give that to everyone?" In my opinion, He does, or at least He tries. However, humans are given free will by His grace, and either they or Satan will mess things up. Look to Genesis with the Garden of Eden; all it took was an apple and human stupidity to screw us over.

Do you want a concrete example? OK, I'll do my best. My family is related to nobility in Poland/Russia/Lithuania, many of which were killed in the Russian Revolution and previous uprisings. We had given up most of our hope in solving our case because we couldn't bind some of the facts together. So, we prayed and prayed and prayed to God for some help to get our case moving again. A few days (and prayers) later, I just typed in our name in Google and there was a new link at the tope of the first page to a book pretty much outlining our history. I contacted the Library of Congress, and they sent us a copy. We can now make our case over in Europe. This is only one of many reasons why I believe in God.

You don't believe, and that's fine. According to free will, you can make that decision for yourself. Do I think you're going to go to Hell simply because you don't believe? No, I don't. If you're a good person, then I'd think that'd be enough to see the Kingdom. Some of the more militant Christians will disagree (and I use the term losely after seeing some past comments from them), and they can because, again, free will.

Want something else? Look at the Pope. If there's anyone who showed what the power of faith and God could do, John Paul II did.

That's my arguement. I'd be happy to hear your points.

Wow, I have NEVER seen 'Google' used as 'evidence' for 'god' before.

Personally - I'd say that was better evidence for the existence of 'Google', but, hey - whatever floats your boat.

Wow, I have NEVER seen 'Google' used as 'evidence' for 'god' before.

Personally - I'd say that was better evidence for the existence of 'Google', but, hey - whatever floats your boat.
No kidding specialy when I know how thoes algorithms work just wow (the act of looking for your name sets off a bot) very logical actualy

If I exist, so does God... no man has the power to create life... he cannot control his fate. everyone has a destiny and it cannot change... God does exist.

-Shinn

Ok, heres my proof-

1) God is love

2) Love is blind

3) Ray Charles is blind

4) Thus: Ray Charles is God

5) Thus: God Exists!

No kidding specialy when I know how thoes algorithms work just wow (the act of looking for your name sets off a bot) very logical actualy

Well, I'm willing to believe in the existence of 'Google'. :)

No kidding specialy when I know how thoes algorithms work just wow (the act of looking for your name sets off a bot) very logical actualy

That's what I thought at first too. But, that was the first time I'd ever seen that link before, and I'd searched for the family by name many times. Usually, the same results pop up in the engine in the same order according to how they match, but this is the first time I've seen that link and I've not seen it since.

Besides, I've still yet to see anything that proves the contrary of my point. Where is your proof? Where are your examples? Your arguement is just as hollow as you claim ours to be.

Can I give you solid proof one way or the other? No, but neither can you. So what exactly is your point here?

That's what I thought at first too. But, that was the first time I'd ever seen that link before, and I'd searched for the family by name many times. Usually, the same results pop up in the engine in the same order according to how they match, but this is the first time I've seen that link and I've not seen it since.

Besides, I've still yet to see anything that proves the contrary of my point. Where is your proof? Where are your examples? Your arguement is just as hollow as you claim ours to be.

Can I give you solid proof one way or the other? No, but neither can you. So what exactly is your point here?

The entire Google search engine counts as evidence, I would suspect, for the capacity of Google to search... it does it day in, day out... that is what it 'does'.

Try typing in a Google search now, on any word you care to try... repeat as many times as you wish, with as many words as you wish.

Each time that Google throws one or more responses, or even a negative respone - that could be taken as clear evidence that Google is an algorithmic functionality that searches data, and finds responses based on frequencies and iterations.

I'm not sure what evidence you COULD generate from a Google search which would ACTUALLY be any kind of evidence for a 'god' interaction.

That's what I thought at first too. But, that was the first time I'd ever seen that link before, and I'd searched for the family by name many times. Usually, the same results pop up in the engine in the same order according to how they match, but this is the first time I've seen that link and I've not seen it since.

Besides, I've still yet to see anything that proves the contrary of my point. Where is your proof? Where are your examples? Your arguement is just as hollow as you claim ours to be.

Can I give you solid proof one way or the other? No, but neither can you. So what exactly is your point here?
You wish me to post the outlines of a google search? I was not making a direct arguement therefore did not prepare myself for any arguement rather a flippant comment

But if you wish I could go through their pigon ranking system and prioritizing by search key but some of the stuff I cant go into because of coppyright issues on their searching technology (used to run one of the sub servers "pigions")

Ok, heres my proof-

1) God is love

2) Love is blind

3) Ray Charles is blind

4) Thus: Ray Charles is God

5) Thus: God Exists!

Congratulations! You have just proven that God is dead...

I challenge anyone seriously willing*! Prove the existence of God, using this forum and your wits alone, to a heathen such as myself.

Who cares? Seriously. If you truly believe in god, or the universe, or luck, or your immortal soul, then you believe in it, and you know its true. It's faith. It's not logic, and posting a statement like that is ridiculous.

Congratulations! You have just proven that God is dead...
How about

DORE'S ARGUMENT
(1) I forgot to take my meds.
(2) Therefore, I AM CHRIST!!
(3) Therefore, God exists.

If you truly believe in god, or the universe, or luck, or your immortal soul, then you believe in it, and you know its true.

No, believing in something does not make it true.

No, believing in something does not make it true.
I believe it's pascal's wager?
There's two possibilites. There's something after death or nothing.
Now, if there's something after death, whoo-hoo!
If there's nothing, that's sad. So I'll say there's something after death, because if I'm wrong, I'll never know.

If you believe in something like this, it might as well be true, because if you're wrong, you'll never know.

I'm just sharing a personal experience, that's all. To me, the fact that I hadn't found the book before and then suddenly did is good enough for me, as well as other events where things just fell in place.

I'm not trying to convert anyone here, actually quite the opposite. I hate the people who try to sound all high-and-mighty and try to guilt someone into believing, and so I try not to do that. One asked to try to prove God exists, and I'm trying to do that using my "experience and wits" as they put it. I'm just trying to answer a question.

And, for the final time tonight as I have school tomorrow, could I please have an example of where God doesn't exist? Can I have a personal story or proof that there is no God? I'm being serious, not arrogant. I genuinely want a counterbalance to some of the things people have said here.

I'm just sharing a personal experience, that's all. To me, the fact that I hadn't found the book before and then suddenly did is good enough for me, as well as other events where things just fell in place.

I'm not trying to convery anyone here, actually quite the opposite. One asked to try to prove God exists, and I'm doing that using my experience and wits. I'm just trying to answer a question.

And, for the final time tonight as I have school tomorrow, could I please have an example of where God doesn't exist? Can I have a personal story or proof that there is no God? I'm being serious, not arrogant. I genuinely want a counterbalance to some of the things people have said here.

Of course, the most obvious one is all the natural disasters that cause so much death and distruction, however most religions have some sort of explanation so it's worthless.

Still would be my evidence, I'd guess.

There's a point within all this babbling.
Actually, two of them.

One: No one can "prove" that God exists.
Two: No one can "prove" that God doesn't exist.
Three: All posters who start threads with titles like "I need proof that Christianity is real" should be shot.

..right. That was three points.

Congratulations! You have just proven that God is dead...

I just about posted that. Heh.

I'm just sharing a personal experience, that's all. To me, the fact that I hadn't found the book before and then suddenly did is good enough for me, as well as other events where things just fell in place.


But do you know how many pages are added to google in a single day? the chances are great that new material is added all the time ESPECIALY if people are searching for it

The more intrest in a topic directs bots to look for pages with thoes topics ... it is just a matter of time from when a serch is instigated to when a page is added

(I got the distributed source to one of these "bots" if you wish to reivew their addition routines) but that just seems like such a non significant event that it would not convince me in the slightest

Congratulations! You have just proven that God is dead...

Hahahahaha. Thats great.

Of course, the most obvious one is all the natural disasters that cause so much death and distruction, however most religions have some sort of explanation so it's worthless.

Still would be my evidence, I'd guess.

And I could say that natural disasters are proof that Earth's jet streams and weather patterns collide, or plates shift, or atoms collide, ect., but it still doesn't prove there's not a God. It just proves that meteorology is a science (although, I have lost faith in the weatermen... ;) ). How is that different from Google? You can predict both based on the past and on structures, but you know that some random things are going to pop up once-in-a-while.

I believe it's pascal's wager?
There's two possibilites. There's something after death or nothing.
Now, if there's something after death, whoo-hoo!
If there's nothing, that's sad. So I'll say there's something after death, because if I'm wrong, I'll never know.

If you believe in something like this, it might as well be true, because if you're wrong, you'll never know.

Why should i believe just for the sake of believing? If God wanted me to believe in him, he could do a better job than he is currently doing.

But do you know how many pages are added to google in a single day? the chances are great that new material is added all the time ESPECIALY if people are searching for it

The more intrest in a topic directs bots to look for pages with thoes topics ... it is just a matter of time from when a serch is instigated to when a page is added

(I got the distributed source to one of these "bots" if you wish to reivew their addition routines) but that just seems like such a non significant event that it would not convince me in the slightest

I'll take your word for it, and thanks for the help. However, as I said, I searched for it since then and nothing has come up (I get random pages about the family, but no book). I even just went to the Library of Congress site where I found the book, and it doesn't show up there. I do have all of the information on it if you'd like, but I haven't found it since that day.

And I could say that natural disasters are proof that Earth's jet streams and weather patterns collide, or plates shift, or atoms collide, ect., but it still doesn't prove there's not a God. It just proves that meteorology is a science (although, I have lost faith in the weatermen... ;) ). How is that different from Google? You can predict both based on the past and on structures, but you know that some random things are going to pop up once-in-a-while.

Because nothing can be done unless there is permission built into the algorithems ... there is NOTHING about it that is not understood or un perdicted

The only really random factor is human searching but once we recive an input all is perdictable after that point

I'll take your word for it, and thanks for the help. However, as I said, I searched for it since then and nothing has come up (I get random pages about the family, but no book). I even just went to the Library of Congress site where I found the book, and it doesn't show up there. I do have all of the information on it if you'd like, but I haven't found it since that day.
IF the site that did contain it changes the content that is reflected instantly in the search
it is all up to what the website publishes

There's a point within all this babbling.
Actually, two of them.

One: No one can "prove" that God exists.
Two: No one can "prove" that God doesn't exist.
Three: All posters who start threads with titles like "I need proof that Christianity is real" should be shot.

..right. That was three points.

A common cop-out.

1. There is no evidence that God exists. In the absence of any evidence of God, belief in God is illogical.

2. Most conceptions of God are inherently illogical or contrary to undeniable evidence.

3. To believe in something in the absence of any evidence of its existence and in the face of logical counter-indications is illogical. With any subject other than "God" it would be considered evidence of mental illness.

4. By the standards applied to any other concept, therefore, God does not exist.

I believe it's pascal's wager?
There's two possibilites. There's something after death or nothing.
Now, if there's something after death, whoo-hoo!
If there's nothing, that's sad. So I'll say there's something after death, because if I'm wrong, I'll never know.

If you believe in something like this, it might as well be true, because if you're wrong, you'll never know.

Of course, Pascal's wager has been called heresy. Believers in God would reject Pascal's wager because God rejects "belief" based on such a wager.

More importantly, it assumes there are no negative consequences to maintaining a false belief in God during one's life.

Of course, Pascal's wager has been called heresy. Believers in God would reject Pascal's wager because God rejects "belief" based on such a wager.

More importantly, it assumes there are no negative consequences to maintaining a false belief in God during one's life.

Doesn't maintaining a belief in Go, even if it is false, have many positive consequences? The belief that you are loved and cherished by someone, all the time, is a powerful one. Granted, there are many that take their belief to the extreme, however I would say that I gentle and open minded belief in God is unhealthy, irregardless if there is a god or not.

Doesn't maintaining a belief in Go, even if it is false, have many positive consequences? The belief that you are loved and cherished by someone, all the time, is a powerful one. Granted, there are many that take their belief to the extreme, however I would say that I gentle and open minded belief in God is unhealthy, irregardless if there is a god or not.
(I think you ment *not unhealthy)

And just because it could be benificial does not make it truth

Doesn't maintaining a belief in Go, even if it is false, have many positive consequences? The belief that you are loved and cherished by someone, all the time, is a powerful one. Granted, there are many that take their belief to the extreme, however I would say that I gentle and open minded belief in God is unhealthy, irregardless if there is a god or not.

Those benefits could also be pure illusion.

Ok, so, I'm not going to prove God exists, but I am going to complain.

FAITH AND LOGIC ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!
Those who say (and there a great many of you who say this) that proving God's existence would make God not exist, are making a logical leap.

If you prove something exists, it becomes a fact. If it is a fact, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist anymore, it means that the said object, concept, idea, being EXISTS. But it means that the Faith in the being is close to being futile. You don't need faith for a fact (you can have it, just not needed). But if its not a fact, you need faith to believe in it.

So, please quit it! Its REALLY misleading, and that kind of thought leads people into a "spiritual dark age" much like the dark ages of science when Europeans believed science to be against God.

Do we need another St Thomas Aquinas to make people NOT make a huge logical leap?


If I wanted to prove God existed, I don't think I could think of any other arguement that hasn't already existed, and thus been lame. All I can pretty much refer to is Murphey's Law: "Everything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong." that goes with the idea that...
If there is an infinitely small chance for something to go wrong
as the amount of repititions approaches infinity, the chance for it to happen in one of those times approaches 100%.
Now, it isn't a nice way of "proving" God exists, and isn't even proof at all, but we can say that
If I can think of it, there is a probability that it exists, thus, there is a chance God exists... And thats where I stop, but maybe I'll be able to complete this thought when I'm not being distracted.

*30 Minutes Later*
Yeah I think my thought came to a horrible horrible stop, but, Murphey's Law is badass.

*15 Minutes Later*
It doesn't seem possible to prove God exists. The best I can say is that there is a chance that he exists, but, just like Induction, Gravity, or anything else, it seems impossible to give a 100% certinty proof that God infact does exist.

*15 Minutes Later*
Ahh...the proof would be soo nice...I want to do it but there so many flaws!

*15 Minutes Later*
Ok, so, I keep going on mental tangents, but...I challange you to prove to me that the Earth exists, if you can do that, I can prove God exists. :D

*5 Minutes Later*
I think I need to get a life and stop sitting here pondering this so intently, but lets just suppose you believe God doesn't exist. If God existed, how would that change your perceptions of reality even if you didn't have proof? And suppose you believe God does exist, and he realy doesn't, how would that change reality?

I dunno if it would...either way...reality seems to be reality...? Anyways, the bigger the change, the chances tending towards such to be the truth would are less likely, because it would deviate reality so much. So I dunno...you can't actually give a quantitative result for it, it'll just merely be speculation.

But, lets say that science spawns a few questions every time a question is answered, as it does, this creates a situation with infinite complexity.
Science is under the presumption that a system has finite complexity, thus is solveable.
If science creates more of such complexity, then to be sciences partner, IE: The completion of science, would be something irrational, something that can answer infinite complexity. God can answer infinite complexity. Thus science needs God to prove it self valid.
That seems sufficient enough. I'm glad I pondered. I'll ponder more later so I can make it better!

(I think you ment *not unhealthy)

And just because it could be benificial does not make it truth

I'm sorry, it's late and I haven't articulated my point very well.
It's irrelevent if a god exists or not, because it can be benifical. Since it's impossible to prove the existance of God, and it's impossible to prove that there is no God, I say choose whichever makes you happy, and let that be your truth.

I'm sorry, it's late and I haven't articulated my point very well.
It's irrelevent if a god exists or not, because it can be benifical. Since it's impossible to prove the existance of God, and it's impossible to prove that there is no God, I say choose whichever makes you happy, and let that be your truth.



Any delusion is OK so long as it makes the believer happy?

So, if believing that I am a divine being and all others are here to serve me is OK if it makes me happy?

Ok, so, I'm not going to prove God exists, but I am going to complain.

FAITH AND LOGIC ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!
Those who say (and there a great many of you who say this) that proving God's existence would make God not exist, are making a logical leap.

If you prove something exists, it becomes a fact. If it is a fact, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist anymore, it means that the said object, concept, idea, being EXISTS. But it means that the Faith in the being is close to being futile. You don't need faith for a fact (you can have it, just not needed). But if its not a fact, you need faith to believe in it.

So, please quit it! Its REALLY misleading, and that kind of thought leads people into a "spiritual dark age" much like the dark ages of science when Europeans believed science to be against God.

Do we need another St Thomas Aquinas to make people NOT make a huge logical leap?


If I wanted to prove God existed, I don't think I could think of any other arguement that hasn't already existed, and thus been lame. All I can pretty much refer to is Murphey's Law: "Everything that CAN go wrong, WILL go wrong." that goes with the idea that...
If there is an infinitely small chance for something to go wrong
as the amount of repititions approaches infinity, the chance for it to happen in one of those times approaches 100%.
Now, it isn't a nice way of "proving" God exists, and isn't even proof at all, but we can say that
If I can think of it, there is a probability that it exists, thus, there is a chance God exists... And thats where I stop, but maybe I'll be able to complete this thought when I'm not being distracted.

*30 Minutes Later*
Yeah I think my thought came to a horrible horrible stop, but, Murphey's Law is badass.

*15 Minutes Later*
It doesn't seem possible to prove God exists. The best I can say is that there is a chance that he exists, but, just like Induction, Gravity, or anything else, it seems impossible to give a 100% certinty proof that God infact does exist.

*15 Minutes Later*
Ahh...the proof would be soo nice...I want to do it but there so many flaws!

*15 Minutes Later*
Ok, so, I keep going on mental tangents, but...I challange you to prove to me that the Earth exists, if you can do that, I can prove God exists. :D

*5 Minutes Later*
I think I need to get a life and stop sitting here pondering this so intently, but lets just suppose you believe God doesn't exist. If God existed, how would that change your perceptions of reality even if you didn't have proof? And suppose you believe God does exist, and he realy doesn't, how would that change reality?

I dunno if it would...either way...reality seems to be reality...? Anyways, the bigger the change, the chances tending towards such to be the truth would are less likely, because it would deviate reality so much. So I dunno...you can't actually give a quantitative result for it, it'll just merely be speculation.

But, lets say that science spawns a few questions every time a question is answered, as it does, this creates a situation with infinite complexity.
Science is under the presumption that a system has finite complexity, thus is solveable.
If science creates more of such complexity, then to be sciences partner, IE: The completion of science, would be something irrational, something that can answer infinite complexity. God can answer infinite complexity. Thus science needs God to prove it self valid.
That seems sufficient enough. I'm glad I pondered. I'll ponder more later so I can make it better!

Would you care to try to make sense? Or would it not change your world view either way?

Any delusion is OK so long as it makes the believer happy?

So, if believing that I am a divine being and all others are here to serve me is OK if it makes me happy?

The difference is that everyone KNOWS you're not a divine being. Because the existance of God cannot be proven or disproven, I see no problem in choosing whichever gives you the most peace.

I say choose whichever makes you happy, and let that be your truth.

Wait. re-write: "I say choose whichever makes you happy, and let that be your belief."

Wait. re-write: "I say choose whichever makes you happy, and let that be your belief."

No, I stand behind my original statement.

Eh, I'd go back and clean it up to make sense, but didn't I already say I was done writing that for now? Read the end paragraph, thats the closest you'll get to any proof.

I'm sorry, it's late and I haven't articulated my point very well.
It's irrelevent if a god exists or not, because it can be benifical. Since it's impossible to prove the existance of God, and it's impossible to prove that there is no God, I say choose whichever makes you happy, and let that be your truth.

hypothetical argument: My god says that any who do not believe in him will suffer in hell for all eternity. This makes me happy, and its my truth. If you do not believe in my god you go to hell. Is that true for you?

Truth is not relative. If something is true, its true for me and for you. Believing in something does not make it the 'real' truth.

hypothetical argument: My god says that any who do not believe in him will suffer in hell for all eternity. This makes me happy, and its my truth. If you do not believe in my god you go to hell. Is that true for you?

Truth is not relative. If something is true, its true for me and for you. Believing in something does not make it the 'real' truth.

Truth is relative, it's facts that aren't.

Truth is relative, it's facts that aren't.

Is that statement relative or absolute?

Is that statement relative or absolute?
Probably more relative than absolute, I have a bad habit of doing that. But truth, to me, implies honesty over factuality.

Probably more relative than absolute, I have a bad habit of doing that. But truth, to me, implies honesty over factuality.

You can be honestly mistaken.

The statement: "Truth is relative." This cannot be true unless it is absolute. If it is absolute it shows that truth is not relative.

You can be honestly mistaken, however in that case I'd say the person was speaking the truth, as he or she saw it.

You can be honestly mistaken, however in that case I'd say the person was speaking the truth, as he or she saw it.

The person would be speaking what they 'thought' to be the truth. If they were wrong it would not be the truth being spoken, only what they think is the truth.

Does it matter if god does exist or not ? Humankind has to believe there is anything after death. It keeps people going thinking that there is a something after. If not then whats the point ? Why put up with this pathetic existence if there isn't anything? You need to believe in something to keep you going god,aliens,a large space hamster called george,anything. :)

The difference is that everyone KNOWS you're not a divine being. Because the existance of God cannot be proven or disproven, I see no problem in choosing whichever gives you the most peace.

Fine.

My invisible pooka friend Harvey is a divine being. All creatures are here to obey him.

You cannot prove Harvey does not exist. Belief in him makes me happy.

Now prostrate yourself to Harvey. Tommorrow we shall start our campaign to convert or slaughter unbelievers.

(You have simply assumed that belief in God has no deleterious effects on either the believer or the rest of us. History teaches us that believers don't keep their belief to themselves.)

The person would be speaking what they 'thought' to be the truth. If they were wrong it would not be the truth being spoken, only what they think is the truth.

Yeah, We have different connotations of the word truth.

Fine.

My invisible pooka friend Harvey is a divine being. All creatures are here to obey him.

You cannot prove Harvey does not exist. Belief in him makes me happy.

Now prostrate yourself to Harvey. Tommorrow we shall start our campaign to convert or slaughter unbelievers.

(You have simply assumed that belief in God has no deleterious effects on either the believer or the rest of us. History teaches us that believers don't keep their belief to themselves.)

Believers may not keep their belief to themselves, however I have mentioned this eariler in the thread that religion and belief in God is benefical if taken gently an with an open mind.
Nice reference to the movie/play, by the way

Okay, go with me on this

If God exists you would be able to see Him/Her/It somewhere, possibly right?

So therefore God doesn't exist? Right?

I can't see any of your brains,

So, by that logic, those don't exist either... I actually can't see any of you guys. There is absolutely no proof that any of you exist. You can be one complicated aim bot.

My wits win...





As Emily Dickenson (My English Teacher, on the first day we were studying Emily Dickenson, began class by saying, "I Love Emily Dickenson. Ergo..." She indicated to us and we chanted, "We love Emily Dickenson." She made us memorize this as a class... 10 minutes later she randomly asked my friend Stan, "What's a fine invention." He said "Microscopes." He hasn't yet lived that one down. She sometimes in the middle of class asks him, "What's a fine invention?") says,

Faith is a fine invention,
When Gentlemen can see,
But Microscopes are prudent
In an emergency

I actually have this poem memorized, so I'm not looking a book, please forgive me if my indiscrimitory capitalization, punctuation (I seem to have a shortage of dashes. It really doesnt look like an EMily Dickenson without those), and amount of lines are off

Believers may not keep their belief to themselves, however I have mentioned this eariler in the thread that religion and belief in God is benefical if taken gently an with an open mind.
Nice reference to the movie/play, by the way

If you or any believer is happy with a "justification" of belief that (a) hinges on them keeping it to themselves and (b) equates belief in God with any other delusion, then so be it.

Seems a pretty paltry justification for overthrowing reason.

Hey, introducing something new here. Unlike Christianity, which believes God is like a man, the Islamic view is that God is unimaginable to humans, but signs of his/her (God is neither of these) existence exist in nature (aka Science)! Therefore, here is evidence based on two scientific facts:

1. Big Bang:

1) The big bang occurrance is factual because of so much evidence to support it.
2) The origin of the big bang is based on a point with ZERO VOLUME but all the mass and energy in the universe. Let's looks at
3) ZERO VOLUME = NOTHING!
4) If nothing existed before the big bang, then some entity (God) must have created the energy and mass which exists in the Universe.

Therefore God exists.

2. Perception of Material World

1) It is fact that our senses are electrical signals to our brain.
2) Seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and feeling an object isn't external, but inside a brain according to proposition (1).
3) If everything we sense is really an electrical impulse to our brain, then we are not necessarily witnessing a material world. EG. When we are dreaming, our perceptions are similar to when we're awake, but WE AREN'T REALLY WITNESSING ANYTHING MATERIAL AS IT'S IN OUR MIND.
Non-science but based on the previous scientific points:
4) Based on dreams, we can conclude that MATTER IS ONLY IN OUR MIND.
5) Our brains our matter, as our senses can perceive it as well. Therefore, OUR BRAIN IS ALSO IN OUR MIND.
6) Since matter doesn't exist based on the previous propositions, nothing exists but some form of consciousness, aka a SOUL.
7) Soul is a creation of God.
8) Since only a soul exists, then God must exist.

I'm finished the messaging here, the rest is up to you. Just wanted to add something new to the board.

1) The big bang occurrance is factual because of so much evidence to support it.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, stop right there, Jack. While the big bang is a great theory, and there's lots of evidence to support it, it's still slightly debatable as to if it happened and quite debatable as to how it happened. Your first argument is built on shaky ground.

3) If everything we sense is really an electrical impulse to our brain, then we are not necessarily witnessing a material world. EG. When we are dreaming, our perceptions are similar to when we're awake, but WE AREN'T REALLY WITNESSING ANYTHING MATERIAL AS IT'S IN OUR MIND.
Okay, stop again.
"Not necessarily" is key here. Most likely, we are witnessing something - some form of stimulus.

6) Since matter doesn't exist based on the previous propositions, nothing exists but some form of consciousness, aka a SOUL.
7) Soul is a creation of God.
8) Since only a soul exists, then God must exist.
No. Not necessarily. You're working off of a ton of presupposed religious ideas here. "Soul is a creation of God" is a massive, massive leap. How do we (or I, for that matter) know that everything percieved isn't an illusion, and there's only one consciousness? Wouldn't that make that individual soul - the only bit of consciousness in existence - the closest thing to God? I mean, since you say the mind creates all matter... isn't God supposed to be some sort of Creative force?

I don't know. You can't prove God. You can't disprove God. It's futile to try.

And now to LOGICALLY prove that God created Earth

1) All Gods created Earth
2) There are no Gods
3) God created Earth

And now to LOGICALLY prove that God created Earth

1) All Gods created Earth
2) There are no Gods
3) God created Earth

http://www.the-gateway.net/fun/whatyoupost.jpg

http://www.the-gateway.net/fun/whatyoupost.jpg
Wtf? Bill and Ted?

Wtf? Bill and Ted?

http://www.the-gateway.net/fun/kickoffinternet.jpg

:D

Okay, go with me on this

If God exists you would be able to see Him/Her/It somewhere, possibly right?

So therefore God doesn't exist? Right?

I can't see any of your brains,

So, by that logic, those don't exist either... I actually can't see any of you guys. There is absolutely no proof that any of you exist. You can be one complicated aim bot.

My wits win...

Ive seen an autopsy. Therefore, I know brains exists, because I have seen them.

"1. Big Bang:

1) The big bang occurrance is factual because of so much evidence to support it.
2) The origin of the big bang is based on a point with ZERO VOLUME but all the mass and energy in the universe. Let's looks at
3) ZERO VOLUME = NOTHING!
4) If nothing existed before the big bang, then some entity (God) must have created the energy and mass which exists in the Universe."

If you use big bang to support demostration that god exist it means that you don´t understand big bang


If anyone try demostrte god exist it means he doesn´t understand god



The best demostration i have never read is one that said a famous mathematician when his king told him he must demostrate it, he said


( a + b ) ^2 = a^2 + b^2 + 2 a b and then god exist


all other demostrations are as serious as this one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonely Voice
As G.K. Chesterton said, Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found hard and not tried. The Cat-Tribe, this one's for you



How very special. I would think people have tried to prove Christianity is rational for over 2000 years.

^^^It has been tried-I just doubt very seriously you tried it...read any of the good apologists? ....probably asked a kid just out of Sunday School.

And to the statement that everyone worships the same God-yes, and no. Yes, many religions believe in a supreme being, but no, they are not worshipping THE God...they are worshipping what they think God is...and since none of them believe in the only thing that can save you-that Jesus died for them and He is Lord, then they need some help :)

"If you use big bang to support demostration that god exist it means that you don´t understand big bang"

Well, I don't believe that there was a big bang...but it does. If God didn't make matter, than matter must be eternal, and if matter is eternal, it would have experienced entropy, and would be unable to do any work (such as exploding). All the matter would just be in one point in space, weighing an awfully large amount, capable of nothing.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashan
Okay, go with me on this

If God exists you would be able to see Him/Her/It somewhere, possibly right?

So therefore God doesn't exist? Right?

I can't see any of your brains,

So, by that logic, those don't exist either... I actually can't see any of you guys. There is absolutely no proof that any of you exist. You can be one complicated aim bot.

My wits win...



Ive seen an autopsy. Therefore, I know brains exists, because I have seen them."

The real version of that illuminating joke uses mind, not brain. The mind is not a physical organ, nor it is an epiphenomenon (spell that right?). It is a supernatural entity (psychology arguments? Unity of identity. While our physical body ages, and new cells are made, etc....our self concept stays the same....and the fact that memories aren't found in the brain-just areas where processes concerning memory (retrieval for example) exist). So, the joke is saying that, if the atheist is going to say that God doesn't exist because he doesn't see Him, then neither does the atheist's mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonely Voice
As G.K. Chesterton said, Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found hard and not tried. The Cat-Tribe, this one's for you

How very special. I would think people have tried to prove Christianity is rational for over 2000 years.

^^^It has been tried-I just doubt very seriously you tried it...read any of the good apologists? ....probably asked a kid just out of Sunday School.

LOL. :D

Dear child, you should not make assumptions about others in these Forums, particularly assumptions you base an argument.

I have studied Theology. Have you?

I have a minor in Philosophy. Have you?

I've studied St. Thomas Aquinas's writings. Have you?

I've studied Descartes, Kant, Aristotle, Leibniz, etc. Have you studied any of them?

I've read a great deal of C.S. Lewis, Alvin Plantinga, and other apologists. Have you?

I think my point is made. I do not hold myself out as an authority. But I do know a bit more about the subject than the average Sunday School student.

Many great minds have tried to prove the existence of God for centuries. They have failed.

And to the statement that everyone worships the same God-yes, and no. Yes, many religions believe in a supreme being, but no, they are not worshipping THE God...they are worshipping what they think God is...and since none of them believe in the only thing that can save you-that Jesus died for them and He is Lord, then they need some help :)

As far as I can tell, this is not directed at anything I said. It is rather arrogant of you, in the absence of any proof of your God, to assume all other religions are in error and have been for centuries upon centuries. You have not a shred of evidence that you are right and they are wrong.

"If you use big bang to support demostration that god exist it means that you don´t understand big bang"

Well, I don't believe that there was a big bang...but it does. If God didn't make matter, than matter must be eternal, and if matter is eternal, it would have experienced entropy, and would be unable to do any work (such as exploding). All the matter would just be in one point in space, weighing an awfully large amount, capable of nothing.

:headbang: Entropy would not result in stasis.

Regardless, you assume God is eternal. Why? How is God exempt? Where did God come from? And on what does the turtle stand?

6) Since matter doesn't exist based on the previous propositions, nothing exists but some form of consciousness, aka a SOUL.
7) Soul is a creation of God.
8) Since only a soul exists, then God must exist.

circular argument, doesn't work.

even though i don't believe in a god, here is a puzzle i can't seem to figure out: scientists ideas for how a teleportation machine would work is where it would take a person and completely make a copy of the person and destroy the old one. this new person would be exactly alike in every way(assumming the brain and there is electricity would be the same), but they aren't the same person, what is it that separates them! i can't figure it out, my friend says it's the soul, but that doesn't make sense. I have another example though, if it was a rock being put in that machine, it wouldn't be the same rock as the other one either, would it?

Where did God come from? And on what does the turtle stand?

"It's turtles all the way down."

Seriously, that argument has always messed with my brain's logic centers (which are, admittedly, already messed). If everything requires a causer/creator, that includes God - unless God is not part of everything, and therefore nothing.

Meh, I'll never understand some people.

even though i don't believe in a god, here is a puzzle i can't seem to figure out: scientists ideas for how a teleportation machine would work is where it would take a person and completely make a copy of the person and destroy the old one. this new person would be exactly alike in every way(assumming the brain and there is electricity would be the same), but they aren't the same person, what is it that separates them! i can't figure it out, my friend says it's the soul, but that doesn't make sense. I have another example though, if it was a rock being put in that machine, it wouldn't be the same rock as the other one either, would it?

In terms of 'design' the rock would be identical to the original, but where did all the components come from? Does it MATTER that the materials are different?

Theoretically - your first rock is 'destroyed' in creating the 'pattern' for your duplicate - so the second rock MUST be different.

The same would apply to a human - the original human would be broken-up in the process, so you COULD argue that, whatever appears at the other end, it ISN'T the same person.... just a very good copy.

Assuming, of course, that 'teleportation' is achieved through means of electron-entanglement. Any form of teleportation that worked on the 'hypothesis' of deforming space, could (theoretically) have ONE entry and exit entity.