NationStates Jolt Archive

Four other French citizens once held at Guantanamo were returned to France in late July. Mourad Benchellali, Imad Kanouni, Nizar Sassi and Brahim Yadel are being held in France as part of an investigation into suspected terror-related networks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4786407,00.html

So, the Americans hold you at Guantanamo, they release you, and the French are immediately throwing you in jail pending an investigation.

Hmm. Wonder how long that could take. Then again, the SDECE has a much longer and much more colorful history of torture and horrific interrogation than the amateur Americans with their thongs and dog leashes.

They probably already wish they were back in American hands.

Yeah. Americans aren't that good at torture. It's not their fault, they just need some experience.

Still under the influence of that "300 hundred proofs that god exists" thread.

(1) The french do some bad things
(2) Therefore the US is a great country

Still under the influence of that "300 hundred proofs that god exists" thread.

(1) The french do some bad things
(2) Therefore the US is a great country

Nope. I'm of the opinion that countries do things in their own national interest, morality be damned if it's inconvenient. Just proves I'm right.

It could be the French want to play it safe now. If they just released them right away like the British did with their returned prisoners, they could be ridiculed and sanctioned again. I don't think France can take another 'wine war' with the Americans. They suffered enough the last time.

It could be the French want to play it safe now. If they just released them right away like the British did with their returned prisoners, they could be ridiculed and sanctioned again. I don't think France can take another 'wine war' with the Americans. They suffered enough the last time.

Oh please. The French want to be like the Swiss. They want to win every war, no matter who started it or was involved in it.

The French are just as paranoid about their Muslim population as any other Western nation. They just won't admit that's what it is.

Liberty, equality, and brotherhood - as long as you aren't wearing a headscarf.

OH! I wouldn't know. Just an observation. What I've read here, France will be totally Islamic country by the year 2040... so I guess they have a good reason to be paranoid...

I like france, and I can't understand the problem my countrymen have with it.

Here are the qualities that make france okay in my book:

1. They are open about their hatred of the US. You know exactly where you stand in their world view, and they don't pretend otherwise. After that, dealing with them should be comparatively easy.

2. They are completely useless. So hating france is a bit like hating mexico. Not worth the effort, as it will never accomplish much.

Frankly, I enjoy france, and the crazy anti-anglo actions of the french.

On the other hand, countries like Germany - which clearly despise the US - should not be given the pass that they do. Sure they claim to be saying these things for our "own good", and the rest, but we all know that is not true, they are out to get the english speaking world for having humiliated them twice.

Also the germans are insanely good at causing trouble. (Especially now that they have learned to make their poodles the french act as the fall guy for them.)

So I say to my fellow english speakers, do not worry about the french, but instead concern yourselves over the greatest threat to global security extant today: Germany!

I don't think France can take another 'wine war' with the Americans. They suffered enough the last time.

I don't think the French suffered any thing.. All you seen were a bunch of Americans buying the wine and pouring it down the drain to make a statement. I'm sure French wine makers don't really care what you do with the bottle once you've bought it..lol

To be serious though, I doubt it had any effect on the French except to deepen resentment around the world for America. It was like the not so brilliant idiot that came up with "Freedom Fries" ..LOL

Oh please. The French want to be like the Swiss. They want to win every war, no matter who started it or was involved in it.

The French are just as paranoid about their Muslim population as any other Western nation. They just won't admit that's what it is.

Liberty, equality, and brotherhood - as long as you aren't wearing a headscarf.

ur kidding right about the swiss thing??? i dont think iver ever heard something as uneducated and foolish as that. The swiss wanna win every war???? if u knew anything ud know that the swiss never engaged in anywar and remained neutral and therefore never won nor lost any war. As for the french being paranoid about their muslim population, the french city of MArseilles now has a larger population of arab immigrants than of traditional citizens, wouldnt u be paranoid if ur own culture was being treathened by outside influences. and lets not compare americans to french, "freedom fires" "liberty toast" bunch of propagandic 2 year old bullshit.

Frankly (no pun intended), I believe that the individual nations that make up the EU are going to eventually vanish - much as no one really cares about what happens in Nebraska, or what the Governor of Nevada has to say.

That said, unless the EU is willing to spend the trillions of dollars it would take to have the same ability the US possesses to project military power at will around the globe at a moment's notice, it will not have the political clout that it really desires.

If it doesn't possess that power, then it has to rely on the United States to act or not act as the EU sees fit - and the wishes and actions are not always going to coincide.

The EU does not now, nor does any European nation, possess that power.

It's what upsets Europe more than the actions - the undeniable fact that they have no comparable power and no way to constrain US military action.

I think you are missing the point Legs. Nobody has ever said that the US did not have the right to detain and interrogate suspected terrorists or material witnesses to crimes. People objected to this being done in an extra-legal manner whereby they were denied access to council, access to judicial hearings, the possibility of torture, and the possibility of being locked up for life on a Presidential whim without being granted any chance to proce their innocence.

It is called "due process" and is a fundamental part of your Constitution.

The US has only agreed to release people that it feels they have completely drained of intel, that they are fairly sure represent no threat, and whom have committed no chargable offenses under US law.

Now these men have been released into French custody where they are being held with the full protections of that legal system - something they did not have at Guantanamo, and I don't care to speculate if their actions in Afghanistan violated French Law, or if France simply wants to ensure that they also have the benefit of all available intelligence from these men.

The difference being that they are now in a situation where they have the same legal rights as they would have had they been detained for their actions in France rather than stuck in legal limbo as they were in Gitmo.

In other words, they now have full access to due process.

and that, sir, makes a hell of a difference.

Still under the influence of that "300 hundred proofs that god exists" thread.

(1) The french do some bad things
(2) Therefore the US is a great country

(3) PROFIT!!

I like france, and I can't understand the problem my countrymen have with it.

Here are the qualities that make france okay in my book:

1. They are open about their hatred of the US. You know exactly where you stand in their world view, and they don't pretend otherwise. After that, dealing with them should be comparatively easy.

2. They are completely useless. So hating france is a bit like hating mexico. Not worth the effort, as it will never accomplish much.

Frankly, I enjoy france, and the crazy anti-anglo actions of the french.

On the other hand, countries like Germany - which clearly despise the US - should not be given the pass that they do. Sure they claim to be saying these things for our "own good", and the rest, but we all know that is not true, they are out to get the english speaking world for having humiliated them twice.

Also the germans are insanely good at causing trouble. (Especially now that they have learned to make their poodles the french act as the fall guy for them.)

So I say to my fellow english speakers, do not worry about the french, but instead concern yourselves over the greatest threat to global security extant today: Germany!

To quote the guv:

"You've got to admire the Germans, atleast they're open about their plans, world domination by any means nessecary. Not like you French, you're up to something. Just look at the words you've given the English language: Camoflauge, espionage, er, fromage."

Augh! Whispering Legs is on to us, fellow EUropeans! The only thing we really desire is to build up - and later unleash our military power. That's why many EU countries have voted AGAINST of initiatives to build a common military force for EU. We thought we could fool them... but not WL! Damn!

I think you are missing the point Legs.

The SDECE has a long, and quite colorful history, of kidnapping people from around the world, including from the United States, taking them to French colonial territory, torturing them (in some cases to death), and never giving them access to courts, lawyers, or anything that resembles the faintest hint of due process.

They also just kill people.

What the heck did this guy smoke, eat, inject or drink? I´m just asking, because it really seems to fuck up your mind.

A LOT!


On the other hand, countries like Germany - which clearly despise the US - should not be given the pass that they do. Sure they claim to be saying these things for our "own good", and the rest, but we all know that is not true, they are out to get the english speaking world for having humiliated them twice.

Also the germans are insanely good at causing trouble. (Especially now that they have learned to make their poodles the french act as the fall guy for them.)

So I say to my fellow english speakers, do not worry about the french, but instead concern yourselves over the greatest threat to global security extant today: Germany!

Germans don´t hate the US. We just don´t like President Bush - which is our damn good right.

You might look up some facts and see how many hands we lend you in your little war on terror and your glorious liberation of Iraq, heck,w e even lost a ton of people doing so and it´s expensive as well, you´d better send us a "Thank You" muffin basket (fruit-cake optional) ASAP. It should change your mind, assuming you´re not one of thise hate-filled self-repressed chest-thumping jingoists which seem to be America´s #1 problem.

Four other French citizens once held at Guantanamo were returned to France in late July. Mourad Benchellali, Imad Kanouni, Nizar Sassi and Brahim Yadel are being held in France as part of an investigation into suspected terror-related networks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4786407,00.html

So, the Americans hold you at Guantanamo, they release you, and the French are immediately throwing you in jail pending an investigation.

Hmm. Wonder how long that could take. Then again, the SDECE has a much longer and much more colorful history of torture and horrific interrogation than the amateur Americans with their thongs and dog leashes.

They probably already wish they were back in American hands.

Well I can just say that who's guy's can be really glad that they are from a Egypt or another countries that is regulare use torture. Because fore some Guantanamoprisoners from dictatorship the ordeal is not over after they been realised by the Americans. Because know there countrymen and allies to the USA want to have fun with them.

You might look up some facts and see how many hands we lend you in your little war on terror and your glorious liberation of Iraq, heck,w e even lost a ton of people doing so and it´s expensive as well, you´d better send us a "Thank You" muffin basket (fruit-cake optional) ASAP. It should change your mind, assuming you´re not one of thise hate-filled self-repressed chest-thumping jingoists which seem to be America´s #1 problem.

I guess we shouldn't be too upset at the gas centrifuges we've found over the years in Libya (they gave them to us recently), Pakistan (they admitted where they got them), Iraq (found only a handful - ok), and Iran (seen by the UN inspectors).

They were ALL from Germany. Nope, I guess that was just business as usual. Who cares that they can only be used for ONE thing.

What the heck did this guy smoke, eat, inject or drink? I´m just asking, because it really seems to fuck up your mind.

A LOT!



Germans don´t hate the US. We just don´t like President Bush - which is our damn good right.

You might look up some facts and see how many hands we lend you in your little war on terror and your glorious liberation of Iraq, heck,w e even lost a ton of people doing so and it´s expensive as well, you´d better send us a "Thank You" muffin basket (fruit-cake optional) ASAP.

This is what I am talking about. The hatred of the anglo-sphere is clear.

And last I checked, the only way germany helped with Iraq, was by stealing more than the french.

It should change your mind, assuming you´re not one of thise hate-filled self-repressed chest-thumping jingoists which seem to be America´s #1 problem.


No, no hatred there :rolleyes:

Really now, you might be able to fool the imbeciles who watch NBC sitcoms, but you are not going to put it past me. You and the Canadians are in league. And you both want to see the downfall of the US.

I guess we shouldn't be too upset at the gas centrifuges we've found over the years in Libya (they gave them to us recently), Pakistan (they admitted where they got them), Iraq (found only a handful - ok), and Iran (seen by the UN inspectors).

They were ALL from Germany. Nope, I guess that was just business as usual. Who cares that they can only be used for ONE thing.


No. That can't be true!!!! Germany does things out of love, and out of compassion and respect for their fellow man. It would never be motivated just be profit.

Only the US does that. :rolleyes:

The SDECE has a long, and quite colorful history, of kidnapping people from around the world, including from the United States, taking them to French colonial territory, torturing them (in some cases to death), and never giving them access to courts, lawyers, or anything that resembles the faintest hint of due process.

They also just kill people.

Oh - you mean they are just the same as the CIA.

Gotcha.

Besides, whatever the "long colourful history" is - it is irrelevant to the situation of these men unless you can demonstrate that they are about to be denied access to the courts and tortured.... or treated in any way contrary to French law.

You guys are really taking the mickey out of me, right?

I guess we shouldn't be too upset at the gas centrifuges we've found over the years in Libya (they gave them to us recently), Pakistan (they admitted where they got them), Iraq (found only a handful - ok), and Iran (seen by the UN inspectors).

They were ALL from Germany. Nope, I guess that was just business as usual. Who cares that they can only be used for ONE thing.

The FRG is a FREE nation, wit free trade and corporations which can work without the government spying on them. I´m really sorry, that they are a free democratic nation and NOT a police state which spies on every move of every business-man :eyes:

Those components maybe have been made in Germany, but suggesting that they have been sold explictley to certain nations to built a nuke to drop it on the US is so plain hilarious I have to ask: Did you take your medication?

No offence, I´m just concerned about your health. :eyes:

BTW, please give me some link on those claims of yours.

This is what I am talking about. The hatred of the anglo-sphere is clear.

Please elaborate? I didn´t say anything remotley "anglo-sphere" hating. Actualyl I really don´t hate anyone. heck, some of my best friends are - you´ll love it - Americans, quite a number of them are actually Republicans and conservatives...


And last I checked, the only way germany helped with Iraq, was by stealing more than the french.


Iraq owes us 4 billion in infrastructure, roads and hospitals. Money we no longer want. It´s a FAT gift to the Iraqi people. Saddam ordered that stuff, we built it but never saw ANY money for it. We train Iraqis forces and police, equip their cops and aid them in building a own jurisdictial infrastructure. A number of schools have made partnerships with local Iraqi schools.

We still have a NBC batallion in Kuwait, training Iraqis and Kuwaitis on NBC countermeasures. Exactly the same battallion was there during Desert Storm part II with the option to provice "humanitartian aid" to US forces, should they get under attack of Iraqi chemicals... (go figure).

We still got almost 7500-10.000 troops around the globe pulling rank for your war on terror, we ponyed up our troop contingent on the Blakans tor relief US troops from their duties so they can fight in Iraq. Ou airports and seports have been used as staging ground and fall-back area for your invasion of Iraq.

Last time I checked, we really lend you a hand. :eyes:

Really now, you might be able to fool the imbeciles who watch NBC sitcoms, but you are not going to put it past me. You and the Canadians are in league. And you both want to see the downfall of the US.

Now this is just brilliant. I guess I don´t need to say anything more, sorry. You just disqualified yourself with your comments AND confirmed my fears in one step, be proud, you really are a disgrace to America.

Thank god there are better people than types like you.

And last I checked, the only way germany helped with Iraq, was by stealing more than the french.
Yes, we are a bunch of cowardly thieves, all of us. :rolleyes:
You should double-check next time. (http://www.german-embassy.org.uk/german_aid_for_the_stabilizati.html) But maybe that doesnt fit your view of the world and therefore is irrelevant. Spouting uniformed falsehoods is sooo much easier, isnt it?

On a sidenote, the SDECE is a thing of the past it's been replaced around 20 years ago by the DGSE, a more politically correct organisation now partly composed of civilians.

Torture has been let's say abandonned in favor of more humane and practical techniques a long time ago. We learnt the lessons from Algeria : piles of mutilated bodies aren't politically correct and don't result in anything productive except martyrs and annoying questions.

http://www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=mj98albright

Protecting suppliers
At first, Iraq downplayed the assistance of German centrifuge experts, particularly the aid of Bruno Stemmler and Karl Heinz Schaab. However, in the fall of 1993, Iraq was under growing pressure to provide technical details about its centrifuge program, including new information about German centrifuge experts. Again, Iraq told only part of the story and cleverly hid some key information within otherwise truthful revelations.

At the technical talks, Iraq claimed that it obtained Stemmler's centrifuge drawings without his knowledge. Iraqi officials described a meeting between Stemmler and Iraqi centrifuge experts at a Munich Gasthaus near his home. At the meeting, they said, Stemmler invited them to come to his house to see some documents. The Iraqis added realistic touches to the story--accurately describing the route to the house and details about the kitchen where they met.

Realizing that Stemmler had other important documents at the house, they said, they arranged later for an Iraqi intelligence unit to break in and steal them, including the centrifuge drawings. The Iraqi centrifuge design, the Iraqis said, was based on these drawings.

This statement was made shortly after Stemmler had suffered a severe stroke and could not be interviewed. Stemmler never recovered, and he died a few years later without ever being questioned about it. Team members believed the Iraqis' story was not credible because of various inconsistencies, but they could find no evidence to refute it. And in exchange for telling this "real story," the Iraqis got the Action Team's promise to treat the information as confidential--thereby limiting the story's dissemination and the chance that the lies they had told would be uncovered.

It was only after Kamel defected that the truth about Stemmler and the other German centrifuge experts emerged. The same Iraqis who concocted the 1993 story smiled as they admitted that they had not arranged for the theft of Stemmler's designs. Their 1993 confession had been part of a carefully developed ploy to hide much of the Iraqi centrifuge program and the extent of the assistance provided by German centrifuge experts. In Stemmler's case, the Iraqis said, he had brought classified centrifuge drawings and technical reports with him when he visited Iraq in August 1988. They met with Stemmler at his home a few months later, to see more drawings and ask specific technical questions.

When they were asked about Karl Heinz Schaab in 1993, Iraqi centrifuge experts denied that they knew he manufactured carbon-fiber centrifuge rotors. They claimed to know him only as a middleman. In 1995, they admitted that they bought both extensive classified information and centrifuge components from Schaab.

This new information was so startling that the German government charged Schaab with treason and launched an international manhunt to find him. He is currently being held in Brazil, where he awaits a court decision about extradition.

Yes, we are a bunch of cowardly thieves, all of us. :rolleyes:
You should double-check next time. (http://www.german-embassy.org.uk/german_aid_for_the_stabilizati.html) But maybe that doesnt fit your view of the world and therefore is irrelevant. Spouting uniformed falsehoods is sooo much easier, isnt it?

Hey, germany was in the oil for food scandal, and it buys oil from Iran.

Whatever aid minimal aid germany provides is overshadowed by its other misdeeds.

It could be the French want to play it safe now. If they just released them right away like the British did with their returned prisoners, they could be ridiculed and sanctioned again. I don't think France can take another 'wine war' with the Americans. They suffered enough the last time.
You mean when Americans bought French wines and instead of drinking it they poured it away? That must have hurt the French badly. :D

You mean when Americans bought French wines and instead of drinking it they poured it away? That must have hurt the French badly. :D

You hate the US, right? And you would like to see it collapse wouldn't you?

http://www.isis-online.org/publications/expcontrol/albright1.html

More German fun - they know what you want it for, and will sell it to you anyway...

Khidir Hamza, then the head of the Iraqi weaponization program, led a delegation to Germany in August 1987 to conduct negotiations for a wide variety of items for the weaponization program under the pretense of non-nuclear cover stories.

The main item sought by Hamza's team was equipment to process natural uranium and HEU into nuclear weapon components. For these items, Ali had approached Degussa and Leybold, who were not only interested but were among the best companies within the European Community for these items. Because Hamza had represented Iraq at the meetings of the IAEA, he could not risk being linked to procurement efforts that claimed to be for non-nuclear purposes.

With Hamza kept out of sight, two of his aides met with representatives of Degussa and Leybold in the Iraqi embassy to discuss the acquisition of a foundry. Iraq told the Germans that the foundry would be used to melt, purify, cast, and machine tungsten, a common refractory metal. The Iraqis never mentioned that the actual planned use for the foundry was to process both natural uranium and HEU. The equipment would include vacuum induction furnaces, crucibles, computer-numerically-controlled (CNC) machines, and an iodine-based purification process. Initial estimates put the equipment for the foundry over $100 million. Buildings and personnel training were not included in these rough estimates.

Hamza summarized the reaction of the company representatives:

"During the negotiations, we suddenly realized that the companies were willing to sell these technologies to us. At the same time, they warned us they were complicated, expressed astonishment that we were entering such a field and indicated that the cost would be high. At first, this move on the part of the companies was puzzling for us, since it seemed the companies were prepared even to disregard the requirement for an export license by making special arrangements and packing the equipment under covers, which made the export process seem natural. At the same time, they stated openly that they knew the purpose of the equipment. They even indicated that they knew the equipment was not for peaceful purposes…We were astonished to see that the companies were actually helping us find covers for some of the required technologies."

You mean when Americans bought French wines and instead of drinking it they poured it away? That must have hurt the French badly. :D
Well, I don't know what source you have, but I've heard they were devastated. Not to mention the 'french/freedom fries war'. It practically killed the French potato farming industry.

This is what I am talking about. The hatred of the anglo-sphere is clear.
Well, your not making it very hard.

And last I checked, the only way germany helped with Iraq, was by stealing more than the french.
But no one steals more then the US. Remind me again who's in charge of the oil now? Germany? France? Hmmmm....who is it?



Really now, you might be able to fool the imbeciles who watch NBC sitcoms, but you are not going to put it past me. You and the Canadians are in league. And you both want to see the downfall of the US.
You say it as if thats a bad thing.

You hate the US, right? And you would like to see it collapse wouldn't you?
Well, yeah of course. Who wouldn't?

This thread makes no sense, none-sense!

*unleashes Marquis De Sade at topic-starter*

Hey, germany was in the oil for food scandal, and it buys oil from Iran.

Whatever aid minimal aid germany provides is overshadowed by its other misdeeds.
Like invading a sovereign country under a guise of lies and turning it into a puppet. Oh wait.....

Hmm. Some ask for the links and evidence that Germans sold the Iraqis nuclear technology - and I not only post that - but post evidence that they KNEW they were doing it - and were complicit in concealing it.

And all Von wants to talk about is the stupid dumping of French wine?

Come on, I want to hear the denials! The denials which will now sound completely ridiculous!

Hey, germany was in the oil for food scandal, and it buys oil from Iran.

Whatever aid minimal aid germany provides is overshadowed by its other misdeeds.
And the US buys oil from Saudi Arabia, not exactly the nicest guys in the world, too. Oil-for-food, was there something you wanted to say? (http://mediamatters.org/items/200412080005)

Hmm. Some ask for the links and evidence that Germans sold the Iraqis nuclear technology - and I not only post that - but post evidence that they KNEW they were doing it - and were complicit in concealing it.
And for the first time in this thread I'm being serious... is selling gas centrifuges against NPT? Tell me please, i can't be arsed to google it up...

http://www.isis-online.org/publications/expcontrol/albright1.html

More German fun - they know what you want it for, and will sell it to you anyway...

Khidir Hamza, then the head of the Iraqi weaponization program, led a delegation to Germany in August 1987 to conduct negotiations for a wide variety of items for the weaponization program under the pretense of non-nuclear cover stories.

<snip>

Note the date? 1987? Saddam was EVERYBODY's best friend then - especially the Americans.

This is BEFORE sanctions Legs. Do you need me to point you to your own Senate report that shows which bio-weapon agents were sold to Iraq during that same time period?

Well, I don't know what source you have, but I've heard they were devastated. Not to mention the 'french/freedom fries war'. It practically killed the French potato farming industry.


You mean that the US Congress was buying their potatoes from France and not Idaho???


TRAITORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Note the date? 1987? Saddam was EVERYBODY's best friend then - especially the Americans.

This is BEFORE sanctions Legs. Do you need me to point you to your own Senate report that shows which bio-weapon agents were sold to Iraq during that same time period?
Please do. I want to see him call you a darn bleeding heart liberal who makes stuff up.

Note the date? 1987? Saddam was EVERYBODY's best friend then - especially the Americans.
This is BEFORE sanctions Legs.
Zep, it continues after the sanctions. There is no doubt that these guys did something strictly forbidden. Which is why the were tried for treason and atomic espionage in Germany.

You mean that the US Congress was buying their potatoes from France and not Idaho???


TRAITORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, that's what we hear here in Europe. I can't give you a source though...I'm sure you too know potate sales between nations are strict secrets...

The only thing we know is Poland has a near monopoly...

And the US buys oil from Saudi Arabia, not exactly the nicest guys in the world, too. Oil-for-food, was there something you wanted to say? (http://mediamatters.org/items/200412080005)

That's the second time today I've seen a Media Matters link. i'm bookmarking that site. It's interesting.

Well, that's what we hear here in Europe.......
I never heard of it.

Please do. I want to see him call you a darn bleeding heart liberal who makes stuff up.


Sure. I mean, as long as we are talking about the 80's....

From the Riegel Report (http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/r_1_2.html#exports)

The Riegle Report

U.S. Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual Use Exports to Iraq and their Possible Impact on the Health Consequences of the Gulf War
A Report of Chairman Donald W. Riegle, Jr. and Ranking Member Alfonse M. D'Amato of the Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs with Respect to Export Administration

United States Senate, 103d Congress, 2d Session
May 25, 1994



U.S. Exports of Biological Materials to Iraq
The Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs has oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act. Pursuant to the Act, Committee staff contacted the U.S. Department of Commerce and requested information on the export of biological materials during the years prior to the Gulf War. After receiving this information, we contacted a principal supplier of these materials to determine what, if any, materials were exported to Iraq which might have contributed to an offensive or defensive biological warfare program. Records available from the supplier for the period from 1985 until the present show that during this time, pathogenic (meaning "disease producing"), toxigenic (meaning "poisonous"), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Records prior to 1985 were not available, according to the supplier. These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction. According to the Department of Defense's own Report to Congress on the Conduct of the Persian Gulf War, released in April 1992: "By the time of the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq had developed biological weapons. It's advanced and aggressive biological warfare program was the most advanced in the Arab world... The program probably began late in the 1970's and concentrated on the development of two agents, botulinum toxin and anthrax bacteria... Large scale production of these agents began in 1989 at four facilities in Baghdad. Delivery means for biological agents ranged from simple aerial bombs and artillery rockets to surface-to-surface missiles."

Included in the approved sales are the following biological materials (which have been considered by various nations for use in war), with their associated disease symptoms:

Bacillus Anthracis: anthrax is a disease producing bacteria identified by the Department of Defense in The Conduct of the Persian Gulf War: Final Report to Contress, as being a major component in the Iraqi biological warfare program.

Anthrax is an often fatal infectious disease due to ingestion of spores. It begins abruptly with high fever, difficulty in breathing, and chest pain. The disease eventually results in septicemia (blood poisoning), and the mortality is high. Once septicemia is advanced, antibiotic therapy may prove useless, probably because the exotoxins remain, despite the death of the bacteria.

Clostridium Botulinum: A bacterial source of botulinum toxin, which causes vomiting, constipation, thirst, general weakness, headache, fever, dizziness, double vision, dilation of the pupils and paralysis of the muscles involving swallowing. It is often fatal.

Histoplasma Capsulatum: causes a disease superfically resembling tuberculosis that may cause pneumonia, enlargement of the liver and spleen, anemia, an influenza like illness and an acute inflammatory skin disease marked by tender red nodules, usually on the shins. Reactivated infection usually involves the lungs, the brain, spinal membranes, heart, peritoneum, and the adrenals.

Brucella Melitensis: a bacteria which can cause chronic fatique, loss of appetite, profuse sweating when at rest, pain in joints and muscles, insomnia, nausea, and damage to major organs.

Clostridium Perfringens: a highly toxic bateria which causes gas gangrene. The bacteria produce toxins that move along muscle bundles in the body killing cells and producing necrotic tissue that is then favorable for further growth of the bacteria itself. Eventually, these toxins and bacteria enter the bloodstream and cause a systemic illness.

In addition, several shipments of Escherichia Coli (E. Coli) and genetic materials, as well as human and bacterial DNA, were shipped directly to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission.

The following is a detailed listing of biological materials, provided by the American Type Culture Collection, which were exported to agencies of the government of Iraq pursuant to the issueance of an export licensed by the U.S. Commerce Department:


Then follows a loooooooooooooooooooooooooong list of the exports by date and who they were delivered to. All perfectly legally. All with the express approval of the US government at the time.

And all properly verified in the report.



Y'all have a nice day now.

I never heard of it.
Oh please!!! Don't try to make this go away by silencing it to death!

Well, yeah of course. Who wouldn't?

You see, that's why I like you. You are an old school german. In any case, you prove my earlier point.

Zep, it continues after the sanctions. There is no doubt that these guys did something strictly forbidden. Which is why the were tried for treason and atomic espionage in Germany.


Which at that point means that he has shot himself in the foot trying to indicate that this was official German government policy.

People get caught in illegal trade all the time in every country in the world. He is trying to hint that this was a) sanctioned, and b) a reason that Germany was against the war as it was against their economic interests.

However if Germany was stopping this trade all on their own and prosecuting the offenders, then clearly they were NOT officially sanctioning it.

Well, that's what we hear here in Europe. I can't give you a source though...I'm sure you too know potate sales between nations are strict secrets...

The only thing we know is Poland has a near monopoly...

I wonder if the Irish will invade Poland to protect it's rich potato hertitage?

The first step is always Poland...

Oh please!!! Don't try to make this go away by silencing it to death!
:confused: Eeh what?

Sure. I mean, as long as we are talking about the 80's....
<snip very nice>
Y'all have a nice day now.

Wow. Did we continue that into the 1990s, after the sanctions were in place like the Germans did?

I'm just answering the earlier claim that the Germans never did anything - they never violated any sanction. I believe the exact claim was that they never sold anyone a gas centrifuge that they knew would be used to build a nuclear bomb.

Well, I hate to tell you, but they did know. And they continued to sell after the sanctions were in place. They even helped with the fake companies and concealed transactions so that they could be sure of doing the deals without government interference.

It's one thing to sell something under legal circumstances (something we all do). But to know what it is for, and to continue to do it under sanctions makes me wonder what they were thinking.

In any case, you prove my earlier point.
While you, on the other hand, seem incapable of refuting my points.

Wow. Did we continue that into the 1990s, after the sanctions were in place like the Germans did?

I'm just answering the earlier claim that the Germans never did anything - they never violated any sanction. I believe the exact claim was that they never sold anyone a gas centrifuge that they knew would be used to build a nuclear bomb.

Well, I hate to tell you, but they did know. And they continued to sell after the sanctions were in place. They even helped with the fake companies and concealed transactions so that they could be sure of doing the deals without government interference.

It's one thing to sell something under legal circumstances (something we all do). But to know what it is for, and to continue to do it under sanctions makes me wonder what they were thinking.


I'm sorry, but you have shown NOTHING that I saw that proves that anything was done officially by Germany after Gulf War I regarding WMD - unless you count charging a citizen with treason when they recieved proof of it.


Oh yes, and it's not like there aren't unscrupulous companies everywhere... (http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?source=blq/yhoo&siteid=yhoo&dist=yhoo&guid={4CFAC07E-D176-42B2-A276-EFF1A8B9A452})

While you, on the other hand, seem incapable of refuting my points.

What points. That germans don't like the US? That guy just said it, what more do you want.

What points. That germans don't like the US? That guy just said it, what more do you want.
Yes, Jester, I'm sorry. That guy just said it. It's official. The Germans hate the USA (and when we know France does too... this applies to all of the EU)... cos... that guy said it!

Augh! Whispering Legs is on to us, fellow EUropeans! The only thing we really desire is to build up - and later unleash our military power. That's why many EU countries have voted AGAINST of initiatives to build a common military force for EU. We thought we could fool them... but not WL! Damn!
:D

I'm sorry, but you have shown NOTHING that I saw that proves that anything was done officially by Germany after Gulf War I regarding WMD - unless you count charging a citizen with treason when they recieved proof of it.

Nothing was done "officially" before it, either, because the companies involved did their utmost to conceal their centrifuge trading.
I'm not talking about the official German government. I'm talking about Germans.

Trading with the enemy for oil, etc., is not the same as trading someone for tools to make nuclear weapons. Tools that have only one purpose - to make nuclear weapons.

And it went on for years under the sanctions before the Germans arrested anyone.

:D
It should be obvious that one of the reasons for the EU being started is to try to compete with the U.S. After the Cold War, Europe no longer feels the need for the U.S to protect them. No one likes a lone Super-Power.

What points.
The points that proved you spouted bullshit here:
And last I checked, the only way germany helped with Iraq, was by stealing more than the french.
and here:
Whatever aid minimal aid germany provides is overshadowed by its other misdeeds.
Just keep ignoring facts, it shows what an intelligent, educated individual you are.

Nothing was done "officially" before it, either, because the companies involved did their utmost to conceal their centrifuge trading.
I'm not talking about the official German government. I'm talking about Germans.

Trading with the enemy for oil, etc., is not the same as trading someone for tools to make nuclear weapons. Tools that have only one purpose - to make nuclear weapons.

And it went on for years under the sanctions before the Germans arrested anyone.
So, you aren't talking about the French, Germans, etc at all, you are talking about the business...? The companies did that... so you are just equating the whole peoples with the companies?

The points that proved you spouted bullshit here:

and here:

Just keep ignoring facts, it shows what an intelligent, educated individual you are.

Dude, did you not just read all that excellent material that WL posted about helping Iraq to attemp to develop nuclear weapons?

But I can see, that as you are now attacking me personally, you are getting desperate, because you know I am right.

You should be more honest, like that Von Witzleben.

Tools that have only one purpose - to make nuclear weapons.
While this is surely why the centrifuges were bought, that "only one purpose" is the enrichment of uranium, not neccessarily for bombs. I would never claim that e.g. Iraq needed them for civil uses, but there are such.

So, you aren't talking about the French, Germans, etc at all, you are talking about the business...? The companies did that... so you are just equating the whole peoples with the companies?

No, he's equating them with their governments which condoned these actions.

While this is surely why the centrifuges were bought, that "only one purpose" is the enrichment of uranium, not neccessarily for bombs. I would never claim that e.g. Iraq needed them for civil uses, but there are such.

What's the other purpose of large quantities of enriched Uranium? Are you saying the german companies believed the Iraqis were going to use it as a paperweight.

Dude, did you not just read all that excellent material that WL posted about helping Iraq to attemp to develop nuclear weapons?



As opposed to the nice American folks who would never do such things... like, say, when Mr Donald Rumsfeld was a director of ABB, a European engineering giant based in Zurich, when it won a $200m contract to provide the design and key components for two light-water reactors in North Korea ?

So, you aren't talking about the French, Germans, etc at all, you are talking about the business...? The companies did that... so you are just equating the whole peoples with the companies?

Hmm. I'm not talking about their governments.
Ever wonder why the US thought that Iraq had WMD? It isn't so much that Iraq had WMD (which they did have in terms of chemical weapons in the 1980s with US and other help), but that they were trying to acquire better WMD.

After 9-11, the US was not in a political climate that allows for "wait and see if they set one off here in Miami".

So, we notice that the German companies are selling gas centrifuges. And that dummy companies were set up so that the German government would not know - facts discovered by Americans.

It's interesting to note that Hamza (the Iraqi defector) notes the German knowledge of what they wanted the centrifuges "for". They knew they could never get an export permit for that. Building nuclear weapons.

So we didn't find an intact nuclear bomb in Iraq. Didn't find any plutonium pits for bomb cores.

Good.

It means we got there before they could finish, because we did find the centrifuges.

Unlike the examples that Zepp gave (Americans trying to get rich going around the sanctions with more common items), the German companies were involved in selling components that they and the Iraqis involved KNEW were going to be used to make nuclear weapons.

For which the German government tried the Germans in question for treason.

But the fact that it happened in the first place - that there are Germans willing in a post-911 environment to sell the ability to make weapons of mass destruction to a country like Iraq in violation of sanctions and their own national laws - it says a lot about the German people.

No, he's equating them with their governments which condoned these actions.And I'm sure You are not just with your opinion here. The German.. French covernment condoned this where? Don't get me wrong, I don't usually whine for sources... this is just news to me... I could learn more if I saw sources.

Dude, did you not just read all that excellent material that WL posted about helping Iraq to attemp to develop nuclear weapons?

Yes, interesting read, but no news for me. I concede, those people are criminals from Germany. And as they were caught they faced trials. In Germany. Prosecuted by the german attorney general. Why do you try to construct a scenario where "Germany" did this or that, when it is clearly neither german officials, no one with a mandate, or even the company who holds the patent to the centrifuges sold to the Iraq, ever approved or condoned such a crime?
And i am attacking you personally like you attacked me impersonally along with all germans. And i am getting desperate, that's right. Because it is frustrating to talk with someone who is so thick as you.

What's the other purpose of large quantities of enriched Uranium?
Most enriched Uranium is used in power plants.

I wonder if the Irish will invade Poland to protect it's rich potato hertitage?

The first step is always Poland...
This is a lie I tell you a lie, there is no secret potato war going on between the Irish and the Polish! anything you heard about it false!

P.s: Buy Irish potatoes! Polish potatoes are turnips with potato flavorings (which is made in Ireland)
P.s.s: the polish use nuclear waste and murdered kittens to grow their potato flavored turnips!

As opposed to the nice American folks who would never do such things... like, say, when Mr Donald Rumsfeld was a director of ABB, a European engineering giant based in Zurich, when it won a $200m contract to provide the design and key components for two light-water reactors in North Korea ?

Yes, you are right. The whole world is blameless, except for the US. Only the US and its citizens ever fo anything wrong*. :rolleyes:

But nice non sequitur. Well done.

Really, WL was making a point about Germany, and the actions of the German government, so I fail to see how this means anything.

I could also point out that possibly under German law, it could well be that Rumsfeld may have had very little say in the matter. But, I don't know, and nor do you, so the only reason you saying this is to change the subject back to your usual "US is teh suck" refrain.

*Which arguably is better than Canada - which never does anything at all, except for ignore international law and complain.

Most enriched Uranium is used in power plants.

Hamza said that the Germans knew they were trying to build a bomb.
That's why the Germans in question knew to set up the fake companies and hidden transactions.

Dr. Khan from Pakistan has said similar things about Pakistani acquisition of centrifuges from Germany.

He also said similar things about direct acquisition of help on bomb core design from France and China.

Everyone knew what they were trying to do. Build a bomb.

Most enriched Uranium is used in power plants.

You don't need gas centrifuges to enrich for that, it's very low (approx 4%). Those things are typically used for THORPS, or making weapons.

I am not arguing wether Iran has been developing nuclear weapon, hell, they themselves say they are (if you have followed the news lately).

The only thing I have asked in this thread is proof that selling gas centrifuges is against NPT. And I wasn't even joking... I don't know this time! Is it, or is it not?

I was joking until I saw that claim made about the Germans - "they are just stuffing their pockets in Iraq".

Before that I was just joking... cos let's be clear... the initial post in this thread just asks for it.

But the fact that it happened in the first place - that there are Germans willing in a post-911 environment to sell the ability to make weapons of mass destruction to a country like Iraq in violation of sanctions and their own national laws - it says a lot about the German people.


No, it doesn't.

If you are going to judge a whole citizenry by the actions of a few, then are to judge all americans by the couple that were found to be in league with the Taliban? Or by those you have tried and convicted for treason? Or by Jeffrey Dahlmer?

That is a crappy argument Legs. Casting aspersions on an entier population of millions based on the actions of a few should be beneath you.

No, it doesn't.

If you are going to judge a whole citizenry by the actions of a few, then are to judge all americans by the couple that were found to be in league with the Taliban? Or by those you have tried and convicted for treason? Or by Jeffrey Dahlmer?

That is a crappy argument Legs. Casting aspersions on an entier population of millions based on the actions of a few should be beneath you.

If you take it to mean that the US wanted to go into Iraq to prevent this sort of thing from continuing because the US and not Germany discovered it. If you take it to mean that international agreements (oil for food, sanctions, etc) were not doing anything to really stop the repeated attempts to acquire WMD, then the US wasn't going to wait for WMD to really appear.

It was probably enough for the US to know that it was happenning, again and again, despite international attempts to stop it by peaceful means.

I can't really cast aspersions at the point where the illicit trade is continuing (though I can say the Germans were asleep at the wheel - obviously their world view post-911 hasn't changed at all).

But, for someone to say that we don't have the right to act in our own interests to prevent this sort of thing (in our case, invading Iraq and changing the government) is rather odd.

Everyone knew what they were trying to do. Build a bomb.
I know that as well, as i stated in my first post concerning uranium. It is just that gas centrifuges are used to enrich uranium for civil uses, too. Because they are way more energy-effective and cost less than electromagnetic isotope separation or the classic gaseous diffusion method. I was just pointing out there there isnt a binding logic that equals gas centrifuges and atomic bombs, even if i find it highly likely in this cases.

Here's an analogy that I've tried on another thread.

Imagine that we live in a world with no policemen.

One of the women who lives near you is raped. She reports the horrific act, but the perpetrators are long gone.

She goes out and gets a shotgun and some body armor.

Neither you, nor anyone else, really has a firearm. Even if you did have a firearm, you don't have the willingness to use one, or the willingness to risk being shot.

She warns you about her intention towards rapists (even though you really haven't seen a rapist, and have no relations with any that you can recall), and towards anyone who shows them sympathy.

All in all, you consider her rather paranoid.

Then she shoots someone she claims is a rapist.

Aside from a few other women who say, "well, yes, about 10 years ago he raped me," or "well, yes, about 10 years ago he threatened to rape me" you don't have any other evidence.

But you don't have a weapon and there are still no police.

Are you really going to get anywhere calling this woman a bitch?

Here's an analogy that I've tried on another thread.

Imagine that we live in a world with no policemen.

One of the women who lives near you is raped. She reports the horrific act, but the perpetrators are long gone.

She goes out and gets a shotgun and some body armor.

Neither you, nor anyone else, really has a firearm. Even if you did have a firearm, you don't have the willingness to use one, or the willingness to risk being shot.

She warns you about her intention towards rapists (even though you really haven't seen a rapist, and have no relations with any that you can recall), and towards anyone who shows them sympathy.

All in all, you consider her rather paranoid.

Then she shoots someone she claims is a rapist.

Aside from a few other women who say, "well, yes, about 10 years ago he raped me," or "well, yes, about 10 years ago he threatened to rape me" you don't have any other evidence.

But you don't have a weapon and there are still no police.

Are you really going to get anywhere calling this woman a bitch?
This is an analogy!!?

Zeppistan, you show once again why the rest of the world appreciates Canadians. You're not blinded by idiotic Fox News and such.

For God's sake, Americans! How dare you accuse the EU of going on about you lot when you go on ad nauseum about the French? WAKE UP. 1 in 50 people marched on London to protest against the Iraqi invasion. When you consider how difficult it is to get the capital, you don't have to be a genius to work out how against this directive your "ally", the British people, were.

Tony Blair is attacked daily for supporting the US in the occupation. MOST of Europe was against this attack, including the *PEOPLE* of Britain and Spain. Because our leaders don't have the guts to stand up to Bush doesn't mean we, the people of Europe don't.

We, the British, stand by the French and Germans. So do the Spanish and the Italians and the hundred and hundreds of thousands who marched to say "Not in my Name," just as so many Americans did.

We don't hate you. France doesn't hate you. We hate what you proposed. We hate what (some) of our leaders went along and did.

I can't stand Condoleeza Rice, but I do appreciate her words as she visits Paris this week to make the message clear; the war pulled the western world apart. Let's try and build it up again. Let's try and help Iraq out of this pain.

Start by shutting the fuck up about freedom fries and wine. All of us thought you were mental for that, by the way.

Yeah. Americans aren't that good at torture. It's not their fault, they just need some experience.

we never tried to be good at torture. those abu gahrib and guantanamo bay scandals are bullshit

Zeppistan, you show once again why the rest of the world appreciates Canadians. You're not blinded by idiotic Fox News and such.

For God's sake, Americans! How dare you accuse the EU of going on about you lot when you go on ad nauseum about the French? WAKE UP. 1 in 50 people marched on London to protest against the Iraqi invasion. When you consider how difficult it is to get the capital, you don't have to be a genius to work out how against this directive your "ally", the British people, were.

Tony Blair is attacked daily for supporting the US in the occupation. MOST of Europe was against this attack, including the *PEOPLE* of Britain and Spain. Because our leaders don't have the guts to stand up to Bush doesn't mean we, the people of Europe don't.

We, the British, stand by the French and Germans. So do the Spanish and the Italians and the hundred and hundreds of thousands who marched to say "Not in my Name," just as so many Americans did.

We don't hate you. France doesn't hate you. We hate what you proposed. We hate what (some) of our leaders went along and did.

I can't stand Condoleeza Rice, but I do appreciate her words as she visits Paris this week to make the message clear; the war pulled the western world apart. Let's try and build it up again. Let's try and help Iraq out of this pain.

Start by shutting the fuck up about freedom fries and wine. All of us thought you were mental for that, by the way.

More people protested the ban on fox hunting though.

Zeppistan, you show once again why the rest of the world appreciates Canadians. You're not blinded by idiotic Fox News and such.

For God's sake, Americans! How dare you accuse the EU of going on about you lot when you go on ad nauseum about the French? WAKE UP. 1 in 50 people marched on London to protest against the Iraqi invasion. When you consider how difficult it is to get the capital, you don't have to be a genius to work out how against this directive your "ally", the British people, were.

Tony Blair is attacked daily for supporting the US in the occupation. MOST of Europe was against this attack, including the *PEOPLE* of Britain and Spain. Because our leaders don't have the guts to stand up to Bush doesn't mean we, the people of Europe don't.

We, the British, stand by the French and Germans. So do the Spanish and the Italians and the hundred and hundreds of thousands who marched to say "Not in my Name," just as so many Americans did.

We don't hate you. France doesn't hate you. We hate what you proposed. We hate what (some) of our leaders went along and did.

I can't stand Condoleeza Rice, but I do appreciate her words as she visits Paris this week to make the message clear; the war pulled the western world apart. Let's try and build it up again. Let's try and help Iraq out of this pain.

Start by shutting the fuck up about freedom fries and wine. All of us thought you were mental for that, by the way.

First, noone in the US says freedom fries (that shit was merely a joke), second, i hope you mean to stay in iraq (hopefully not for long) until everything's straightened out in iraq and not just leave it right now and everything we did there was in vain

No they didn't, you moron. Don't try your crap with me. I've followed both protests and the anti-war protest was several hundred thousand more. Now put your head down in shame and read the news articles about the biggest ever protest in Britain. Oi vey.

No they didn't, you moron. Don't try your crap with me. I've followed both protests and the anti-war protest was several hundred thousand more. Now put your head down in shame and read the news articles about the biggest ever protest in Britain. Oi vey.

Hmm it appears you are right:

Fox hunting: 400,000.

Whiney leftist Anti US rally: 600,000.

While we are on the subject though, I invite all keen fox hunters to vaction in the US. We have some most excellent hunts organized in Northern Va. Although you won't get to wear the pink and our hounds may take a little getting used to.

Note the date? 1987? Saddam was EVERYBODY's best friend then - especially the Americans.

This is BEFORE sanctions Legs. Do you need me to point you to your own Senate report that shows which bio-weapon agents were sold to Iraq during that same time period?


I'll be happy to educate you on how those "bio-weapons" were laboratory samples and how the Iraqis with the help of German scientists and a trip to Winchester, UK learned to make those laboratory samples into weapons grade material!

If you take it to mean that the US wanted to go into Iraq to prevent this sort of thing from continuing because the US and not Germany discovered it. If you take it to mean that international agreements (oil for food, sanctions, etc) were not doing anything to really stop the repeated attempts to acquire WMD, then the US wasn't going to wait for WMD to really appear.

It was probably enough for the US to know that it was happenning, again and again, despite international attempts to stop it by peaceful means.

I can't really cast aspersions at the point where the illicit trade is continuing (though I can say the Germans were asleep at the wheel - obviously their world view post-911 hasn't changed at all).

But, for someone to say that we don't have the right to act in our own interests to prevent this sort of thing (in our case, invading Iraq and changing the government) is rather odd.

Holy Wild Off-Topic Tangent Batman!!!

You specifically stated that you could judge ALL Germans by the illegal trading of a couple. I call that bullshit and you come back with this?

Is this the "sling enough muck and hope that some sticks or becomes a sideline discussion" way of dealing with things?

You stated, and I quote, "But the fact that it happened in the first place - that there are Germans willing in a post-911 environment to sell the ability to make weapons of mass destruction to a country like Iraq in violation of sanctions and their own national laws - it says a lot about the German people." And I responded with the direct statement that purile generalizations like that should be beneath you.

And it should be.

Oh, and in your lame analogy, are you really comparing yourself to some poor unarmed bystander at risk from a better-armed psychotic female?

Oh yeah.... the rest of the world was militarily powerless in the face of Saddam.... :rolleyes:

Sometimes, you know, people don't call the cops on the loudmouth in the bar who is acting like a tough guy because they realize that he is just full of bluster and isn't worth bruising their knuckles on.... instead they look for a better way to get him out of the bar without needing to bust up the furniture.

I'll be happy to educate you on how those "bio-weapons" were laboratory samples and how the Iraqis with the help of German scientists and a trip to Winchester, UK learned to make those laboratory samples into weapons grade material!
The German scientists showed the Iraqis how to manufacture WMD in an UK lab? Damn! We need to discuss if we want to join NATO if the flow of info is like that.
And then you attacked Iraq..? Small wonder you knew for sure they had wmd...

OH! I wouldn't know. Just an observation. What I've read here, France will be totally Islamic country by the year 2040... so I guess they have a good reason to be paranoid...


When Elvis Presley died in 1977, there were an estimated 37 Elvis impersonators in the world.
By 1993, there were 48,000 Elvis impersonators, an exponential increase.
Extrapolating from this, by 2010 there will be 2.5 billion Elvis impersonators.
The population of the world will be 7.5 billion by 2010.
Every 3rd person will be an Elvis impersonator by 2010.

When Elvis Presley died in 1977, there were an estimated 37 Elvis impersonators in the world.
By 1993, there were 48,000 Elvis impersonators, an exponential increase.
Extrapolating from this, by 2010 there will be 2.5 billion Elvis impersonators.
The population of the world will be 7.5 billion by 2010.
Every 3rd person will be an Elvis impersonator by 2010.
You are now saying Elvis impersonators are taking over France?! Source, please! I could have sweared I read it here it was gonna be islamists. well...

(btw, what's the maths with mimes or Jerry Lee Lewis impersonators?)

Anti Jihadist Jihad - warned for flaming.

Gurnee - this is not an "official" Moderator warning, but let me make it clear - threads or posts celebrating postcount are spam.

Everyone else - this thread is obviously getting a lot of people upset. Now, I'm not going to lock it as yet - but if you continue to sling insults instead of debating, I may be forced to.

~ Tsar the Mod.

The German scientists showed the Iraqis how to manufacture WMD in an UK lab? Damn! We need to discuss if we want to join NATO if the flow of info is like that.
And then you attacked Iraq..? Small wonder you knew for sure they had wmd...


Following your logic.........

Saddam unilaterally destroyed all his WMDs since he was such the humanitarian.......


Thank you, I needed a good laugh today.

Following your logic.........

Saddam unilaterally destroyed all his WMDs since he was such the humanitarian.......


Thank you, I needed a good laugh today.
Ok... As all my posts in this thread have been jokes (as I stated earlier), I appreciate you laughed... but...what? "following my logic"...what? I thought I made sure I inserted no logic in my post. I just didn't get it from your post + my post you quoted. Please elaborate, I need a laugh too!

Ok... As all my posts in this thread have been jokes (as I stated earlier), I appreciate you laughed... but...what? "following my logic"...what? I thought I made sure I inserted no logic in my post. I just didn't get it from your post + my post you quoted. Please elaborate, I need a laugh too!


Sorry, must have missed that post.

Sorry, must have missed that post.
Why am I not surprised. :)

Yes, you are right. The whole world is blameless, except for the US. Only the US and its citizens ever fo[sic] anything wrong.

Was that really so hard? :D

Holy Wild Off-Topic Tangent Batman!!!

You specifically stated that you could judge ALL Germans by the illegal trading of a couple. I call that bullshit and you come back with this?

Is this the "sling enough muck and hope that some sticks or becomes a sideline discussion" way of dealing with things?

You stated, and I quote, "But the fact that it happened in the first place - that there are Germans willing in a post-911 environment to sell the ability to make weapons of mass destruction to a country like Iraq in violation of sanctions and their own national laws - it says a lot about the German people." And I responded with the direct statement that purile generalizations like that should be beneath you.

And it should be.

Oh, and in your lame analogy, are you really comparing yourself to some poor unarmed bystander at risk from a better-armed psychotic female?

Oh yeah.... the rest of the world was militarily powerless in the face of Saddam.... :rolleyes:

Sometimes, you know, people don't call the cops on the loudmouth in the bar who is acting like a tough guy because they realize that he is just full of bluster and isn't worth bruising their knuckles on.... instead they look for a better way to get him out of the bar without needing to bust up the furniture.

The rest of the world IS powerless to stop the United States in any conventional military conflict.

That's why you're all upset.

You know that Canada can't, without outside assistance, do anything of an international nature. So if the US goes and does ANYTHING that doesn't coincide with Canada's international goals and ties, then it's upsetting. Moreso because you have no way to stop it.

The EU has no ability to project power internationally to stop the United States from intervening anywhere it wants to - unless the UK and France want to use nuclear weapons. So the same applies to them. If, for example, any single EU nation has a problem with the United States wanting to invade any Middle Eastern country, there's NOTHING that they can do about it on any realistic military scale.

Very upsetting. But the US is only acting in its own self-interest.

As was Germany when they violated sanctions in order to sell the tools for nuclear weapons.

As was France when they sold advanced radars, missiles, and artillery pieces to Iraq during the sanction period.

As was Russia, who did the same.

As was China, who sold advanced network software for air defense systems, and designed the most recent air defense system for Iraq just prior to the war.

All of whom, in major exchange, got money under the table from Oil For Food.

Yes, there were companies in the US who traded "with the enemy".

But when you want to see if it applies to official government policy (when individuals in a country are violating sanctions), you should check their UN votes, and see if their government officials have been getting money under the table.

IIRC, Germany, France, Russia, and China all voted consistently against the invasion of Iraq. And the primary reason, despite any protests to the contrary, would be that their government officials were receiving money under the table, and their government officials also knew that their countrymen would lose lucrative military contracts and oil contracts if any invasion took place.

Now of course, you may now say that Halliburton, et al, will be the ones to get lucrative contracts. And that may well be true. Because the US is acting in its own self-interest.

But I can't - for a minute or even a second - buy the notion that the various other major players weren't knee deep in bribes, selling under the table, violation of sanctions, and secret weapons deals - in their own self-interest.

I don't, for a second, buy the notion that any of them were against the war for any high-minded ideals.

And so - because all of those nations (except Germany) have had a long, long record of torture, false imprisonment, international kidnapping, and extreme interrogation techniques - all applied in the absence of official trials - and that those records extend up to recent times, I can't buy the notion that any of them are against those concepts - they would apply them in their own self-interest (and have, and continue to do so) just as the United States is doing.

I can't buy any of their high-minded crap.

Right now, we don't have any documented evidence of the United States targeting a non-violent protest group and assassinating their members outside the United States in current times.

Sinking civilian vessels in commando operations, even though those vessels were never involved in any terrorist act?

Kidnapping civilians, torturing them, and then killing them - all at the hands of French citizens who serve in a military unit composed of men who were not originally French - and doing all of this outside of France, so France will not have its hands soiled?

Do the Russians still torture detainees from Chechnya? Do they operate a long term POW camp, or do they just shoot them after interrogation?

Do the Chinese still imprison people for their religious beliefs, and torture them, and put them in labor camps without trial, or did I miss some moment of enlightenment?

Do the Germans still kill protesters with water cannon? Without a trial?

No, I think that their moral pontification and high-minded statements come from a more base motivation - they wanted to keep Iraq for the monetary reasons - and to devil with any of the consequences.

You are now saying Elvis impersonators are taking over France?! Source, please! I could have sweared I read it here it was gonna be islamists. well...

(btw, what's the maths with mimes or Jerry Lee Lewis impersonators?)

Did Elvis even speak French??

Do the French even speak Elvis??

It could be the French want to play it safe now. If they just released them right away like the British did with their returned prisoners, they could be ridiculed and sanctioned again. I don't think France can take another 'wine war' with the Americans. They suffered enough the last time.

You do know that between the time "wine war" started and today French-American trade increased.

Some people watch too much Fox "news".

Some people watch too much Fox "news".

IIRC, National Public Radio put out various stories and opinions on the recent Iraqi election that seemed identical in content and flavor to the ones I saw on Fox.

They even share some commentators.

So, is National Public Radio something that I shouldn't listen to?

Which one was lying? Is everything put out by Fox a lie, and I'm too stupid to tell the difference?

Does France Telecom not slant the news? I seem to recall the interview of a corporate executive who was being investigated for fraud, and his company was a subsidiary of Thomson. How fortunate! They own a TV network, and did an extremely friendly in-studio interview.

But I could tell the difference, even though my French is not up to native standards. I could smell the rotten stink of corruption.

So am I watching too much Fox? Or do I believe that I should examine every story and make comparisons - try to validate individual stories rather than assume that a whole station is BS?

You do know that between the time "wine war" started and today French-American trade increased.
You tell me. Do I know?

As was Germany when they violated sanctions in order to sell the tools for nuclear weapons.
And here i am sitting and really thought we had an understanding that "Germany" neither did did such a thing nor condoned it. Once again, criminals from a country do not represent official policies and dont receive a mandate from the general population. Why do you stick to "Germany" when referring to a few people who now serve life-terms in jail? You dont see me equating the USA and e.g. Charles Graner. So please stop generalising.

IIRC, Germany, France, Russia, and China all voted consistently against the invasion of Iraq. And the primary reason, despite any protests to the contrary, would be that their government officials were receiving money under the table, and their government officials also knew that their countrymen would lose lucrative military contracts and oil contracts if any invasion took place.
Sorry, but i refuted that pages ago in the case of Germany. No government offcials were involved and ever received money "under the table". Why do you bring it up again. It doesnt became any more true by repetition.

Do the Germans still kill protesters with water cannon? Without a trial?
Yes, on a daily basis. Its easier that way. :rolleyes:
How does "accident" connect to "Without a trial?". If you really want to compare the per capita numbers of police killing innocents by accident during routine work, the US does not look good. Besides, the only death due to a water cannon in Germany is a case from 1985, where the protester was deadly wounded by the truck carrying the cannon, aka traffic accident. Otherwise there is a case in Switzerland and one disputed in Italy. If you have better sources, please correct me.