NationStates Jolt Archive

Since Grade 5 (my political beginnings) people told me, "When you get older, you make peace with the system, and become more conservative". It always annoyed me, because I doubted my political ideas would change so much, but I was patted on the head, and told, "You'll see". So my question is:

When is this conservatism supposed to start? I'm 27 now and I'm more radically left each passing year, not less. No one I know who had strong political beliefs has grown more conservative.

How about you? Do you believe conservatism or 'making peace with the system' is an unavoidable part of 'growing up'?

I for one want to be a Raging Granny...

Yeah. Accept the way things work, and move on. I have, and I'm 16. Sounds like you're behind ;)

You've "made peace with the system" already. The "system" is not conservative by any stretch.

How about you? Do you believe conservatism or 'making peace with the system' is an unavoidable part of 'growing up'?
well i have a friend who was once incredibly conservative but, through my oh-so-subtle influence has swung round to much more liberal ideas over the last few years (putting him as a centrist)

i had the opposite, really. well, i never really knew where my politics lay until i was around 17, but before then whatever my political pursuasion was at the time i was always far more radical than i am today. its partly (for me) because i have come to realise that the system can't be fought against, but 'grown toward' a new goal from the inside...

You've "made peace with the system" already. The "system" is not conservative by any stretch.
Then you and I have a different definition of conservate in mind.

Have I "made peace"?

I don't feel peaceful...

I am also 27 and i have gotten slightly more liberal as i have gotten older. I used to believe in the death penalty, now i don't. I also used to be pro-life because i don't think i myself would ever have an abortion, but since i have gotten older, i have become pro-choice because i eventually realized that i don't have the right to enforce my personal choices on other people. I was actually pro-choice before i became pro-life, so i fluctuated with that one. It was a very short period of my life when i was pro-life. I've always been liberal in everything else, but as i grew up i did come to understand myself better.

Yeah. Accept the way things work, and move on. I have, and I'm 16. Sounds like you're behind ;)

:p Now THAT'S a short political career!

when i was younger i was more "left wing" because i bought into the luvy-duvy theory of Communism; i knew that i wanted to always have stuff, and i knew i didn't like it when other kids had lots of stuff and i didn't have any, so i liked the idea of making them give me some of their stuff. once i was on my own, once i experienced poverty, and once i had to work for a living, i became much more fiscally conservative because i realized that i prize freedom more than stuff, and i have greater respect for people who earn their own way than for people who complain until somebody else pays it for them.

however, as far as social issues (freedom of speech, equal rights, drug laws, etc) i am every bit as liberal as i have ever been...in some fields, more so. when i was little i was always told how drugs were bad and prostitution was bad, so i figured it made sense for there to be laws against those bad things. then i grew up and realized that adults should take responsibility for their own actions, and that we don't get to be kindergarteners for our whole lives. i learned some history, and figured out that prohibiting citizens from choosing what to consume or who to have sex with is simply not effective, and will actually increase the dangers and deaths from the prohibited behaviors.

just as my real-world experience made me more fiscally conservative, it made me more socially liberal, and for exactly the same reason: as i have grown up i have placed increasing emphasis on individual responsibility, and i have held my fellow citizens to higher standards than i held my grade-school peers. adults are responsible for supporting themselves, for choosing their paths, for caring for their bodies, and for building their own lives, so i don't agree with any system that moves these responsibilities onto the government.

Since Grade 5 (my political beginnings) people told me, "When you get older, you make peace with the system, and become more conservative".

i've always thought of that line as either a way for people to deal with the fact that they 'sold out' (i didn't sell out, i bought in), or to feel smug about their silly reactionary views.

Nope, as a libertarian I don't feel like making peace with da system yet....

well i have a friend who was once incredibly conservative but, through my oh-so-subtle influence has swung round to much more liberal ideas over the last few years (putting him as a centrist)

i had the opposite, really. well, i never really knew where my politics lay until i was around 17, but before then whatever my political pursuasion was at the time i was always far more radical than i am today. its partly (for me) because i have come to realise that the system can't be fought against, but 'grown toward' a new goal from the inside...
I believed that too for a long time...that change had to be done from the 'inside'. Now (which is actually how I felt before, just without a good analysis of why), I don't think that one can work within a system so inherently corrupt without becoming co-opted by it.

To me, that whole maxim about "making peace" with the system means sitting back and letting things happen because "I can't do anything about it anyway". I don't think it's inevitable, just likely...because people get tired of fighting and losing over and over again. The idea of "making peace" though, to me, is way of feeling okay about giving up the fight.

Then you and I have a different definition of conservate in mind.

Have I "made peace"?

I don't feel peaceful...

When the establishment and the media call Jorge Bush the face of conservatism, it is quite obvious how Far Left the "system" is.

when i was younger i was more "left wing" because i bought into the luvy-duvy theory of Communism; i knew that i wanted to always have stuff, and i knew i didn't like it when other kids had lots of stuff and i didn't have any, so i liked the idea of making them give me some of their stuff. once i was on my own, once i experienced poverty, and once i had to work for a living, i became much more fiscally conservative because i realized that i prize freedom more than stuff, and i have greater respect for people who earn their own way than for people who complain until somebody else pays it for them.

however, as far as social issues (freedom of speech, equal rights, drug laws, etc) i am every bit as liberal as i have ever been...in some fields, more so. when i was little i was always told how drugs were bad and prostitution was bad, so i figured it made sense for there to be laws against those bad things. then i grew up and realized that adults should take responsibility for their own actions, and that we don't get to be kindergarteners for our whole lives. i learned some history, and figured out that prohibiting citizens from choosing what to consume or who to have sex with is simply not effective, and will actually increase the dangers and deaths from the prohibited behaviors.

just as my real-world experience made me more fiscally conservative, it made me more socially liberal, and for exactly the same reason: as i have grown up i have placed increasing emphasis on individual responsibility, and i have held my fellow citizens to higher standards than i held my grade-school peers. adults are responsible for supporting themselves, for choosing their paths, for caring for their bodies, and for building their own lives, so i don't agree with any system that moves these responsibilities onto the government.

Yeah big business men do a lot of hard work. :rolleyes:

To answer your question, no.

When the establishment and the media call Jorge Bush the face of conservatism, it is quite obvious how Far Left the "system" is.
wait, let me guess, Hitler wasn't fascist enough for you, either :).

When the establishment and the media call Jorge Bush the face of conservatism, it is quite obvious how Far Left the "system" is.

He is conservative....there's nothing wrong with labeling him as such. The system isn't left....nor is it right. It's where it should be. Accepting it is just a part of going through life.

wait, let me guess, Hitler wasn't fascist enough for you, either :).
Don't get started on that storybook again....

Yeah big business men do a lot of hard work. :rolleyes:

having worked as an intern in a high-profile company (as basically a personal assistent to a "big business man") i can tell you that many of them do work quite hard. but then, your "rolleyes" emote tends to suggest that you are one of the many people who will never believe that anybody with money has earned it, nor will you ever believe that somebody can be both wealthy and hardworking.

He is conservative....there's nothing wrong with labeling him as such. The system isn't left....nor is it right. It's where it should be. Accepting it is just a part of going through life.
Who is conservative? Jorge Boosh?!

At 19 I have made peace with the system by which Norway and Sweden and other successful countries are run, and become aware that the US is, until a great crisis, beyond salvation.

Who is conservative? Jorge Boosh?!
Tenete / Defensor, we all know that's you - your 'Jorge Boosh' is a dead giveaway

you get more conservative as you age because the world catches up to the liberal ideals.

today's radical is a conservative 30 years down the road if they keep the same ideas.

when i was younger i was more "left wing" because i bought into the luvy-duvy theory of Communism; i knew that i wanted to always have stuff, and i knew i didn't like it when other kids had lots of stuff and i didn't have any, so i liked the idea of making them give me some of their stuff. once i was on my own, once i experienced poverty, and once i had to work for a living, i became much more fiscally conservative because i realized that i prize freedom more than stuff, and i have greater respect for people who earn their own way than for people who complain until somebody else pays it for them.

however, as far as social issues (freedom of speech, equal rights, drug laws, etc) i am every bit as liberal as i have ever been...in some fields, more so. when i was little i was always told how drugs were bad and prostitution was bad, so i figured it made sense for there to be laws against those bad things. then i grew up and realized that adults should take responsibility for their own actions, and that we don't get to be kindergarteners for our whole lives. i learned some history, and figured out that prohibiting citizens from choosing what to consume or who to have sex with is simply not effective, and will actually increase the dangers and deaths from the prohibited behaviors.

just as my real-world experience made me more fiscally conservative, it made me more socially liberal, and for exactly the same reason: as i have grown up i have placed increasing emphasis on individual responsibility, and i have held my fellow citizens to higher standards than i held my grade-school peers. adults are responsible for supporting themselves, for choosing their paths, for caring for their bodies, and for building their own lives, so i don't agree with any system that moves these responsibilities onto the government.


When you say 'fiscally conservative', I think you should be saying, 'self-reliant'. That isn't necessarily a conservative ideology, especially in our age of neo-liberalism, where we are encouraged to consume far beyond our needs, and far beyond our wants. Self-sufficiency should be the goal of all humans, and yet so many are forced away from self-sufficiency (indigenous peoples, and others who once provided for themselves by growing their own food, making their own shelters and so on) to complete dependency on the market. We in the West are particularly dependent...not one of us can live outside the monetary system and completely provide for ourselves anymore. We lack the skills, and we lack the freedom to do so...even if you tried to build a cabin in the middle of nowhere, you would be hunted down for tax purposes, tagged with a social insurance number and tossed back into the melee. Self-reliance doesn't exist anymore...we buy everything. The fruits of our labour gain us nothing concrete or real...just money with which to buy things we once produced.

Anyway...off track...

Don't get started on that storybook again....
don't know what you are talking about, cuddles. but hey, if you want to tell us more about how Bush is left wing and all the heretics will burn et cetera et cetera then please feel free.

It really doesn't start until you're married with kids. At about that point biological drives kick in that make you more supportive of the system, whether liberal or conservative (note this is a general analysis, many don't fit the mold). The reason this happens goes back to our evolutionary past: when you're a teen you're wandering around in the woods in loose groups trying to get the silverback's females. When you get enough females and kids to become the silverback your goal is to keep those you have. Thus, you rebel when young and defend when old.

having worked as an intern in a high-profile company (as basically a personal assistent to a "big business man") i can tell you that many of them do work quite hard. but then, your "rolleyes" emote tends to suggest that you are one of the many people who will never believe that anybody with money has earned it, nor will you ever believe that somebody can be both wealthy and hardworking.

You can be wealthy and hard working but i doubt most big business men are.. how do they make their money?

When the establishment and the media call Jorge Bush the face of conservatism, it is quite obvious how Far Left the "system" is.
You lost me on that one.

Tenete / Defensor, we all know that's you - your 'Jorge Boosh' is a dead giveaway
The Latin name, traditional Catholic ideology and nuttiness wasn't enough?

It really doesn't start until you're married with kids. At about that point biological drives kick in that make you more supportive of the system, whether liberal or conservative (note this is a general analysis, many don't fit the mold). The reason this happens goes back to our evolutionary past: when you're a teen you're wandering around in the woods in loose groups trying to get the silverback's females. When you get enough females and kids to become the silverback your goal is to keep those you have. Thus, you rebel when young and defend when old.
I'm married with two kids, and I'm a hell of a lot more radical BECAUSE of it. I don't want my kids eating GM foods, hormone-injected meat, drinking polluted water, being brainwashed by corporate greed and indoctrinated in the under-funded school system. It's exactly BECAUSE of my children that I've begun to act on things that once outraged me in a very abstract sense. This IS my sense of survival of the species...change is needed desperately because the current system in unsustainable...

You can be wealthy and hard working but i doubt most big business men are.. how do they make their money?
Whenever someone tells you they got rich (not well-off, not middle class, but RICH) from hard work, always ask them whose.

(I ripped off that quote from someone whose name I don't remember)

Whenever someone tells you they got rich (not well-off, not middle class, but RICH) from hard work, always ask them whose.

(I ripped off that quote from someone whose name I don't remember)

lmao

The Latin name, traditional Catholic ideology and nuttiness wasn't enough?
You see, to defeat an illogical person one must use illogical points . . . ;)

I'm married with two kids, and I'm a hell of a lot more radical BECAUSE of it. I don't want my kids eating GM foods, hormone-injected meat, drinking polluted water, being brainwashed by corporate greed and indoctrinated in the under-funded school system. It's exactly BECAUSE of my children that I've begun to act on things that once outraged me in a very abstract sense. This IS my sense of survival of the species...change is needed desperately because the current system in unsustainable...

Last time I checked, it's sustained itself for more than 200 years, don't see why it would fall apart anytime soon....

You lost me on that one.
On one simple sentence.... :rolleyes:
Liberalism at work...

You can be wealthy and hard working but i doubt most big business men are.. how do they make their money?
well, if you are my great uncle, you come to America because you are fleeing Hitler's murder of gypsies. you and your three brothers work for about 15 years to earn enough money to buy some land, and you begin growing grapes for wine. you sleep roughly 5 hours a night for 10 years or so (none of you marry or have children until you are in your late 40s), earning a reputation and buying up more vineyards. by your 65th birthday you are a multimillionaire, and upon your death ten years later you leave your entire fortune to the great-nieces and great-nephews that your brothers have provided you...you were too busy growing the business and supporting your siblings' families to ever have a family of your own.

or you could be like my mother's brother, who had 4 patents by the time he graduated college. you then found your own company at the age of 23, and make your first million by 30.

or you could be like the man i interned with, who worked his way out of the South Chicago neighborhoods and build a manufacturing company. he chooses to keep his company based near his old neighborhood so he can provide jobs to the people who live there, even though it would be much safer (and, consequently, cheaper) to run his business from a more distant location.

i could go on with anecdotes, because i personally have met and befriended at least 2 dozen hard worked wealthy people in my short life. but i doubt you will care, or it will make the slightest impact on your views. i know you have decided that rich=lazy=big meanies who won't share, so you aren't going to be convinced by a paltry thing like reality.

Last time I checked, it's sustained itself for more than 200 years, don't see why it would fall apart anytime soon....


The way the country works today isnt the way it worked sixty years ago, which wasnt the way it worked forty years before that, or before that, or before that.

lmao
I'm sorry...what is Imao? (a name, an acronym...)?

Last time I checked, it's sustained itself for more than 200 years, don't see why it would fall apart anytime soon....

Do you ever look at the location, or do you just assume everyone is American?

Needless to say. The American system today is markedly different to what it looked like 200 years ago.

I'm sorry...what is Imao? (a name, an acronym...)?
LMAO= Laugh My Arse Off

Last time I checked, it's sustained itself for more than 200 years, don't see why it would fall apart anytime soon....
200 years isn't that long...

Depends on your ideas of 'falling apart'.

It already 'fell apart' for my people (the Native Cree)...

I'm married with two kids, and I'm a hell of a lot more radical BECAUSE of it. I don't want my kids eating GM foods, hormone-injected meat, drinking polluted water, being brainwashed by corporate greed and indoctrinated in the under-funded school system. It's exactly BECAUSE of my children that I've begun to act on things that once outraged me in a very abstract sense. This IS my sense of survival of the species...change is needed desperately because the current system in unsustainable...

FIrst: I didn't say more conservative, just more part of the system than against it. Your drive is to preserve, not change: preserve your children's access to safe food, ability to think freely (yes, free thought is promoted by the system of today, mostly because they think it will reach the same conclusions). I know you're fighting the political system, but in some ways deep down you're doing this to preserve the rights you thought you already have, not because the system is inherently bad by being the system.

If I'm totally off the mark, remember I did say some are able to preserve the drive to rebel though not exactly normal, some don't feel done growing for a while, and some just have morals (I still don't get how those work).

By the way, If you're married with kids, why are you on NS? NS seems like something a bit too immature for established adults.

well, if you are my great uncle, you come to America because you are fleeing Hitler's murder of gypsies. you and your three brothers work for about 15 years to earn enough money to buy some land, and you begin growing grapes for wine. you sleep roughly 5 hours a night for 10 years or so (none of you marry or have children until you are in your late 40s), earning a reputation and buying up more vineyards. by your 65th birthday you are a multimillionaire, and upon your death ten years later you leave your entire fortune to the great-nieces and great-nephews that your brothers have provided you...you were too busy growing the business and supporting your siblings' families to ever have a family of your own.

or you could be like my mother's brother, who had 4 patents by the time he graduated college. you then found your own company at the age of 23, and make your first million by 30.

or you could be like the man i interned with, who worked his way out of the South Chicago neighborhoods and build a manufacturing company. he chooses to keep his company based near his old neighborhood so he can provide jobs to the people who live there, even though it would be much safer (and, consequently, cheaper) to run his business from a more distant location.

i could go on with anecdotes, because i personally have met and befriended at least 2 dozen hard worked wealthy people in my short life. but i doubt you will care, or it will make the slightest impact on your views. i know you have decided that rich=lazy=big meanies who won't share, so you aren't going to be convinced by a paltry thing like reality.

He decided to give jobs to people in his old neighborhood how much does he pay them and how much does he actually work? How much do they work? How does he make the money?

Big Business men may have worked hard at one time, before they were big business men.

Whenever someone tells you they got rich (not well-off, not middle class, but RICH) from hard work, always ask them whose.

lol, that's actually pretty durn funny. and i fully realize that there are plenty of people who get rich off the sweat of other people's backs, but i have also met plenty of people who got rich through their own efforts. i don't think being rich makes you a good person, and i don't think being rich automatically means you are a nasty leech on society who is out to stomp the poor working man. wealth and character are neither reliant upon one another nor mutually exclusive.

I believed that too for a long time...that change had to be done from the 'inside'. Now (which is actually how I felt before, just without a good analysis of why), I don't think that one can work within a system so inherently corrupt without becoming co-opted by it.

To me, that whole maxim about "making peace" with the system means sitting back and letting things happen because "I can't do anything about it anyway". I don't think it's inevitable, just likely...because people get tired of fighting and losing over and over again. The idea of "making peace" though, to me, is way of feeling okay about giving up the fight.
my thinking is kinda 'somebody, somewhere has got to care about the system and to work for a better future...may as well be me'. main problem is though im lazy and have no idea how to begin trying to change stuff. one of my dream jobs though would be in the UN (nice & high up of course ;) )

*snip*
I can't speak for anyone else, so I'll just speak for me...

I don't equate rich with lazy. Nor do I equate hard-working with rich. The one does not guarantee the other. You could work like my father-in-law as a janitor for 25 years, doing 18 hour days or more, and never get ahead. Some people have better opportunities than others, and in many cases, you are born into luck, or privation, and social mobility can be very limited...otherwise we'd see a lot more billionaires around the world instead of the handful that exist...

LMAO= Laugh My Arse Off
Oh. *sheepish*(duh!)

Oh. *sheepish*(duh!)
Don't worry. I spent ages trying to figure LoL out originally.

I had no idea that it was even an abbreviation.

He decided to give jobs to people in his old neighborhood how much does he pay them

depends on the work they do for him. for standard entry level manufacturing i know he takes the standard industry minimum wage and doubles it (when you include the health care he provides, at a loss). for higher level positions it is based upon the work, the qualifications required, et cetera/


and how much does he actually work?

when i was there he was in the office working non-stop from 7:30 am to about 7:00 pm. hence his need of an intern...i was literally responsible for making sure he remembered to go home at night. he did take an hour and a half for lunch, but usually spent it glued to his conferance calls, trying to work out finance issues or deal with zoning crap (which is a big problem in that area of Chi).


How much do they work?

that would depend on who "they" happens to be. not all workers perform the same task; there are manufacturers, managers who help make sure the manufacturers are doing their jobs well and according to specifications, higher level managers who coordinate areas of the plant and coordinate between other plants...like i said with the wages, it really depends on the job that a person is doing.


How does he make the money?

running the company. if you don't think that's hard, try interning with somebody who does it...i guarantee you will have new respect for the stress of that job.


Big Business men may have worked hard at one time, before they were big business men.
like i predicted: nobody who is rich can be hardworking, nobody who is rich can be anything but a nasty old miser who screws over us poor working slobs, boo hoo poor me they have more toys than i do.

forgive the vitriol, but i find it so tiresome.

might i ask: how old are you? how many jobs have you held? have you ever lived below the poverty line?

FIrst: I didn't say more conservative, just more part of the system than against it. Your drive is to preserve, not change: preserve your children's access to safe food, ability to think freely (yes, free thought is promoted by the system of today, mostly because they think it will reach the same conclusions). I know you're fighting the political system, but in some ways deep down you're doing this to preserve the rights you thought you already have, not because the system is inherently bad by being the system.

If I'm totally off the mark, remember I did say some are able to preserve the drive to rebel though not exactly normal, some don't feel done growing for a while, and some just have morals (I still don't get how those work).
Ah...gotcha.

Yes, I am fighting to preserve the freedom I have, as well as fighting to expand it both for myself, my decendents, AND the rest of the people on this planet who were not born into plenty. You know, the majority of humans:)

As for the system NOT being inherently bad...I disagree...neocolonialism, raised at the teat of colonialism is the Western system and it is being pushed globally. We are forcing people into that system, promising them 'plenty' once consumerism has brought prosperity. In the meantime, we exacerbate inequality, push people into poverty they can't get out of and tell them they'll be happier in the end. Sounds like religion...suffer now, heaven's bounty awaits. Natch.

The 'system' isn't that old...it began in the 16th century with colonialism, and only in the last century has it become a truly global phenomenum with the creation of a 'global' market. All empires had similar aspirations, but never the reach...we are in the middle of a great and terrible experiment, and I'd like to see the ethics committee about it:).

I can't speak for anyone else, so I'll just speak for me...

I don't equate rich with lazy. Nor do I equate hard-working with rich. The one does not guarantee the other. You could work like my father-in-law as a janitor for 25 years, doing 18 hour days or more, and never get ahead. Some people have better opportunities than others, and in many cases, you are born into luck, or privation, and social mobility can be very limited...otherwise we'd see a lot more billionaires around the world instead of the handful that exist...
now THIS i can agree with. if only more people had this practical, realistic perspective.

we also have to remember that many people don't become rich because they CHOOSE not to become rich; not everybody is a sub-millionaire because the world screwed them over. for instance, my mother's brothers both became wealthy due partly to their own brilliance, partly to their access to education and job mobility, but largely due to their drive to become wealthy; meanwhile, my father will never be a wealthy man because his brilliance happens to be in a field that won't get anybody rich...he's a researcher, and does what he does with a passion because he loves it, not because he will ever be rich off of it. my mother, similarly, choose a path that will never get her rich, but she is highly respected and extremely accomplished in her field.

personally, i don't know if i will ever be willing to make the sacrifices necessary to become a multimillionaire. i'm not going to pout when i meet people who decided they were willing to choose money over the other aspects of their lives, because i don't feel like i am getting a raw deal at all. not everybody values money more than happiness.

By the way, If you're married with kids, why are you on NS? NS seems like something a bit too immature for established adults.
Established? Hah.

I love debate...and if that's immature, I'll be an immature, toothless old woman eventually:).

Seriously though...there are plenty of us on here...

my thinking is kinda 'somebody, somewhere has got to care about the system and to work for a better future...may as well be me'. main problem is though im lazy and have no idea how to begin trying to change stuff. one of my dream jobs though would be in the UN (nice & high up of course ;) )
ARRGGGHHH!!!! NOT THE UN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kind of one of those "the system is too corrupt to change from the inside" issues at play here...

Well although I doubt I'm old enough to give an informed opinion on this (I'm 20), not being informed have never stopped me giving an opinion before so...

I think I am gradually getting more left wing. However you should ask me in 10 years time about that. But at school it was always the most conservative teachers that would claim that you become more right wing with age. But it always seemed to be done in a way as to say, no matter how hard you try, no matter how much you learn, I [meaning the entire establishment and conservatives in general] will win and you will be assimilated. Muahahaha.

OK, maybe not quite that sinister. But I hope you get my point. However I was bought up in a fairly conservative world (no idea how me and my sister became so left though) and there was always a sense of fatalism that the chosen ideology would win through (also possibly why 'teenage rebellion' was so tolerated too).

Damn, it 3:00AM, I'm rambling and completely sober.

now THIS i can agree with. if only more people had this practical, realistic perspective.
Believing all rich people are pigs is no more ridiculous than believing in the "American Dream", yet people fight wars to defend the one... :p

Well I gotta fly, but don't let that stop ya...

As for "just being 20"...I'm only 27, and let me tell you the only difference is that you learn from your mistakes, and you fight a little nastier:). Keep debating and figuring out where you stand on things...it makes you a fuller person, and much more confident. There is nothing worse than being patronised by someone older than you who has a better argument, one that you KNOW deep down is wrong, but can't refute...

and there is nothing better than wiping that smug smile of someone's face with a really well thought out counter argument...

It's my addiction. I guess it's cheaper than heroin!

By the way, If you're married with kids, why are you on NS? NS seems like something a bit too immature for established adults.
Perhaps he likes debate with individuals who share his interests.

Perhaps he doesn't waste his time barking at immature n00bz.

He decided to give jobs to people in his old neighborhood how much does he pay them and how much does he actually work? How much do they work? How does he make the money?

Big Business men may have worked hard at one time, before they were big business men.
That's pretty funny[/sarcasm]

Don't you think it takes some skill to keep a large company running in the black? Jack Welch isn't a slacker, well he wasn't when he ran GE, anyway. The heads of large and small companies have a tremendous amount of work to do.

when i was younger i was more "left wing" because i bought into the luvy-duvy theory of Communism; i knew that i wanted to always have stuff, and i knew i didn't like it when other kids had lots of stuff and i didn't have any, so i liked the idea of making them give me some of their stuff. once i was on my own, once i experienced poverty, and once i had to work for a living, i became much more fiscally conservative because i realized that i prize freedom more than stuff, and i have greater respect for people who earn their own way than for people who complain until somebody else pays it for them.

however, as far as social issues (freedom of speech, equal rights, drug laws, etc) i am every bit as liberal as i have ever been...in some fields, more so. when i was little i was always told how drugs were bad and prostitution was bad, so i figured it made sense for there to be laws against those bad things. then i grew up and realized that adults should take responsibility for their own actions, and that we don't get to be kindergarteners for our whole lives. i learned some history, and figured out that prohibiting citizens from choosing what to consume or who to have sex with is simply not effective, and will actually increase the dangers and deaths from the prohibited behaviors.

just as my real-world experience made me more fiscally conservative, it made me more socially liberal, and for exactly the same reason: as i have grown up i have placed increasing emphasis on individual responsibility, and i have held my fellow citizens to higher standards than i held my grade-school peers. adults are responsible for supporting themselves, for choosing their paths, for caring for their bodies, and for building their own lives, so i don't agree with any system that moves these responsibilities onto the government.
:fluffle:

That's pretty funny[/sarcasm]

Don't you think it takes some skill to keep a large company running in the black? Jack Welch isn't a slacker, well he wasn't when he ran GE, anyway. The heads of large and small companies have a tremendous amount of work to do.

how much compared to all the workers, and if the workers do work just like the owners isnt that just as important? so shouldnt they get payed the same amount?

Btw I am 17 never had a job and live below the poverty line, but I have had enough experience in my opinion watching my mom and dad work and struggle and not get ahead while business men keep getting richer and richer they can barley pay the rent.

how much compared to all the workers, and if the workers do work just like the owners isnt that just as important? so shouldnt they get payed the same amount?

Btw I am 17 never had a job and live below the poverty line, but I have had enough experience in my opinion watching my mom and dad work and struggle and not get ahead while business men keep getting richer and richer they can barley pay the rent.

Here's the trick: Why would anyone ever work -extra- hard if there was no chance at making any extra money?

Here's the trick: Why would anyone ever work -extra- hard if there was no chance at making any extra money?
Because he likes what he does.

I'm married with two kids, and I'm a hell of a lot more radical BECAUSE of it. I don't want my kids eating GM foods, hormone-injected meat, drinking polluted water, being brainwashed by corporate greed and indoctrinated in the under-funded school system. It's exactly BECAUSE of my children that I've begun to act on things that once outraged me in a very abstract sense. This IS my sense of survival of the species...change is needed desperately because the current system in unsustainable...

You are pleading for change, and when change arrives you reject it as it may be dangerous. GM foods, and hormone injected meat represent change. These are part of the way the world functions and moves on from one point of contention to another.

Drinking polluted water, being brainwashed by corporate greed, and indoctrinated in the underfunded school system are all things that all of us (with the possible exception of the scandinavians) have gone through, as did our parents and their parents etc. Back at least to the late 18th Century.

Be radical, by all means, but do it with some reasoning. Do not just accept the latest bugbear as being the thing to attack. Do you accept fluoridation of your drinking water now? Ten years ago this was a hot topic. How about the spray cans you have in your pantry, what propellant do they use? I bet you don't know right now, without checking. What has happened to the hole in the ozone layer that was going to destroy us all by frying us with UV?

As you get older, and I have a few years on you, you do tend to think a little more before you jump. It is not that your anti-establishment ideas go away, it is just that you learn that screaming and jumping up and down about the state of the world very rarely achieves anything. More effective protest develops, mostly to do with selective purchasing, applying your tiny force to the communal financial lever. When this adds to the rest of the ex-radicals, the force is considerable and actually gets some things done.

Also, you have less energy as you get older. I think it was that bastion of right wing thinking, R.A. Heinlein, that made the best comment I have ever seen about this: "It's amazing how much mature wisdom resembles being too tired."

I sure hope it doesn't work like that.

I see myself becoming more active as I get older, hopefully.

And I too would like to be a raging granny. :p

I sure hope it doesn't work like that.

I see myself becoming more active as I get older, hopefully.

And I too would like to be a raging granny. :p

It sure would be nice if radical protest produced results. Then us older folk could relax in peace and live our lives. However radical protest has only had any effect a very few times (suffragettes is the last case that comes to mind).
No-one is saying that you have to become less active, it is just that you find more effective means.
When you retire, then, if you want to, you can go back to being a raging granny.

However radical protest has only had any effect a very few times (suffragettes is the last case that comes to mind).

that's funny, i seem to recall radical protest toppling a fair few governments in the past few years. and i also seem to recall that the g7 is now at least talking about debt forgiveness - which wasn't even on the radar until a worldwide series of occassionally radical protests.

Since Grade 5 (my political beginnings) people told me, "When you get older, you make peace with the system, and become more conservative". It always annoyed me, because I doubted my political ideas would change so much, but I was patted on the head, and told, "You'll see". So my question is:

When is this conservatism supposed to start? I'm 27 now and I'm more radically left each passing year, not less. No one I know who had strong political beliefs has grown more conservative.

How about you? Do you believe conservatism or 'making peace with the system' is an unavoidable part of 'growing up'?


Depends on how much you've seen and learned. It's a matter of life experiences, not age. I'd say quite honestly that I now realize I had no clue about politics (or history, or human nature, or religion, or many other things) until long *after* I graduated from college, even though at the time I was quite certain I knew it all. Over time, things gradually became clear through experience, not theory... and now (many years later, and having lived in four different countries) I feel I have a pretty good grasp on things, but they're by no means set in stone. I continue to try to learn as much as possible, by talking to people in different walks of life, reading history books voraciously (something I never ever did when I was 20) and taking every chance to debate in order to test my opinions.

Now, of course, what *direction* your particular life experiences would move you in is an open question... but I think "classic liberal" is probably the most common. Sort of what Bottle described earlier. That is not exactly the same as conservative, but it's close, in the present circumstances it's more right than left although neither label fits well.

Since Grade 5 (my political beginnings) people told me, "When you get older, you make peace with the system, and become more conservative". It always annoyed me, because I doubted my political ideas would change so much, but I was patted on the head, and told, "You'll see". So my question is:

When is this conservatism supposed to start? I'm 27 now and I'm more radically left each passing year, not less. No one I know who had strong political beliefs has grown more conservative.

How about you? Do you believe conservatism or 'making peace with the system' is an unavoidable part of 'growing up'?

I for one want to be a Raging Granny...

It doesn't seem to me that conservatism (lower-case in this instance, referring the desire to conserve that which was in the past rather than any genuine political movement. . .and no, they are not necessarily the same thing) is in any way a natural faculty. It has to do with whether you have control over (to borrow from Marx' language) the political means of production. The baby boomers were pretty damn radical right into their late 20's, early 30's before they settled into "conservative" mode in '80. Why did they do this? It wasn't so much a function of age as it was one of their ideology winning out: boomers, whether left or right, have always opposed any sense of civil connection as a relic of the wistful fantasies their parents had about the 50's. Ronald Reagan, however, with his "government is the problem" mantra, was very much in synch with the ideology of the new dominant political age group. Thus, they had control of the political means of production, so they stopped riotting in the streets.

Gen Xers were despised as lazy in the 80's (which had the practical effect of keeping them from taking political power from the boomers), but hey, the system seemed to pay out well if you knew how to game it, so they ducked under and played along. Gen Y people have never known a world other than the one espoused by their culture, their political system, their parents, their friends, and their media (except of course for vague memories of the "failed" doctrine of Marxism), so they don't really have the necessary tools to revolt, even though they seem increasingly willing to do so.

Now, however, we're starting to see the end stages of the free market ideology the boomers developed, and it isn't good. As the means of production aren't producing for the people, the people are naturally starting to radicalize against it. It isn't age; it isn't culture; it's economics that's driving this, pure and simple.

It doesn't seem to me that conservatism (lower-case in this instance, referring the desire to conserve that which was in the past rather than any genuine political movement. . .and no, they are not necessarily the same thing) is in any way a natural faculty. It has to do with whether you have control over (to borrow from Marx' language) the political means of production. The baby boomers were pretty damn radical right into their late 20's, early 30's before they settled into "conservative" mode in '80. Why did they do this? It wasn't so much a function of age as it was one of their ideology winning out: boomers, whether left or right, have always opposed any sense of civil connection as a relic of the wistful fantasies their parents had about the 50's. Ronald Reagan, however, with his "government is the problem" mantra, was very much in synch with the ideology of the new dominant political age group. Thus, they had control of the political means of production, so they stopped riotting in the streets.

Gen Xers were despised as lazy in the 80's (which had the practical effect of keeping them from taking political power from the boomers), but hey, the system seemed to pay out well if you knew how to game it, so they ducked under and played along. Gen Y people have never known a world other than the one espoused by their culture, their political system, their parents, their friends, and their media (except of course for vague memories of the "failed" doctrine of Marxism), so they don't really have the necessary tools to revolt, even though they seem increasingly willing to do so.

Now, however, we're starting to see the end stages of the free market ideology the boomers developed, and it isn't good. As the means of production aren't producing for the people, the people are naturally starting to radicalize against it. It isn't age; it isn't culture; it's economics that's driving this, pure and simple.
You write well.
Like somebody that could write for a magazine or a newspaper.

Since Grade 5 (my political beginnings) people told me, "When you get older, you make peace with the system, and become more conservative". It always annoyed me, because I doubted my political ideas would change so much, but I was patted on the head, and told, "You'll see". So my question is:

When is this conservatism supposed to start? I'm 27 now and I'm more radically left each passing year, not less. No one I know who had strong political beliefs has grown more conservative.

How about you? Do you believe conservatism or 'making peace with the system' is an unavoidable part of 'growing up'?

I for one want to be a Raging Granny...
For me it was pretty much the opposite. Although lately I'm less conservative. There just isn't just one political direction that fully appeals to me. But all have their merits. So my political views are largely clutterd with stuff from both camps.

As you get older, and I have a few years on you, you do tend to think a little more before you jump. It is not that your anti-establishment ideas go away, it is just that you learn that screaming and jumping up and down about the state of the world very rarely achieves anything. More effective protest develops, mostly to do with selective purchasing, applying your tiny force to the communal financial lever. When this adds to the rest of the ex-radicals, the force is considerable and actually gets some things done.

Your "more effective protest" sounds a lot like complacency to me. So yeah, the Heinlein quote definitely applies. :(

that's funny, i seem to recall radical protest toppling a fair few governments in the past few years. and i also seem to recall that the g7 is now at least talking about debt forgiveness - which wasn't even on the radar until a worldwide series of occassionally radical protests.

Please do not confuse radical protest with revolution. Protesting is a single issue thing. You protest against GM foods, or Trade barriers for African Cotton, or whatever issue you choose.

Toppling governments, is not just a matter of protest, it is a matter of revolution. You are saying that you do not trust the whole political system. The only recent example I know of this, however, is the Ukraine.

Debt forgiveness. How old are you? This was a subject on the radical agenda at the end of the sixties and into the seventies. It then fell off the radar screen, and entered the calmer, more effective protest phase. It is back on the agenda because it has become an election issue in some countries (UK particularly). The recent radical protest at the WTO meetings etc, however was not just for debt forgiveness but for the removal of trade barriers and for debt forgiveness.

Half a cake is better than none.

Don't get me wrong. Radical protest has its place and is essential in changing society. Without it, the protest would not exist to evolve inbto more effective measures. Radical protest also raises the public level of awareness. At times falsely, at times not.

You write well.
Like somebody that could write for a magazine or a newspaper.

Thanks.

Your "more effective protest" sounds a lot like complacency to me. So yeah, the Heinlein quote definitely applies. :(

Complacency would be to sit back and say sod it, nothing can be done about it. That is what a lot of people do, and you would be right to criticise them for it, but complacency is not any form of protest, let alone the application of internal presure on the system from the middle management layer and upwards, nor the application of financial pressure, both directly by personal boycot or indirectly through the stock markets buying and selling acording to more than just financial criteria.
Look at what financial power and management positons has achieved for various groups that were discriminated against. The pink dollar has changed the social landscape in the USA, and the reactionary guard are currently fighting back in a lost cause.
No, my young friend, it is not complacency. The Heinlein quote can be interpreted that way, but I interpret it to mean that as you get older you find more efficient, less flashy ways of doing things.

Interesting; I too feel that over the years my radicalism (or lack thereof) has changed.

But I don't think it is mere age that does it. It is your life and what happens to you in those intervening years.

Those who talk of being less and less radical as they get older, those who make peace with the system. Their lives have moved in a different direction than those who get increasingly angry with the state of affairs in this world.

Its amazing how much life affects politics, if you're with child, middle income, forced to work all day to support your loved ones; you become sedentary. Massive protest are harder for those who have to make ends meet, who have diapers to change. Its POSSIBLE, but it thins the field of potential protesters.

We've often talked about those without Jobs getting more and more radical. Since time immemorial we've seen the effects of bored young people. Unemployed is almosts synonymous with "outside the system."

Those outside the system wish to become part of the system, or shape a new system. And thus they radicalize increasingly as society prevents them from doing so. We see that almost everywhere, how many revolutions come from down and out workers? How many unemployed or underemployed people were assassins? Where do current radical political groups and terrorists get their recruits from?

Please do not confuse radical protest with revolution. Protesting is a single issue thing.

then nearly all of the protests i have ever been involved in were not 'protests'.

Toppling governments, is not just a matter of protest, it is a matter of revolution. You are saying that you do not trust the whole political system. The only recent example I know of this, however, is the Ukraine.

that wasn't much of a revolution then - they got the guy who apparently actually won the election in to power. that'd be like calling it a revolution if gore had become pres in 2000.

i was actually thinking of argentina. which again wasn't exactly what i would call a revolution.

Debt forgiveness. How old are you? This was a subject on the radical agenda at the end of the sixties and into the seventies. It then fell off the radar screen, and entered the calmer, more effective protest phase. It is back on the agenda because it has become an election issue in some countries (UK particularly). The recent radical protest at the WTO meetings etc, however was not just for debt forgiveness but for the removal of trade barriers and for debt forgiveness.

that's interesting, as the debt crisis didn't even exist until the 80s. though it did get its start in the 70s.

and the wto is different than the wb/imf or the g7 or the wef, etc. at wb/imf protests, the main idea is drop the debt (except with my people, who tend to chant things like "fuck the debt, cancel the state!"). the main unifying factor of all of these big protests is that all of them are against neo-liberalism. you cannot tell me that the 'washington consensus' was even up for debate before it was being visibly opposed in the streets.

I'll be 44 next week, the political compass test puts me more left and liberal than Ghandi or Mandella. I've managed to keep my convictions while holding a job and raising a family for the last 25 years. Whoever told you that you get more conservative with age wasn't speaking for all of us. Sounds more like wishfull thinking than a fact of life.

You can be part of the system and still seek to change it. Don't ever give up, give in or sell out.

You are pleading for change, and when change arrives you reject it as it may be dangerous. GM foods, and hormone injected meat represent change. These are part of the way the world functions and moves on from one point of contention to another.
Ah...the apparent contradiction...let me make myself more clear. The kind of change I am 'pleading' for (actually working towards, really, because talking gets you only so far) is a paradigm change from the current unsustainable, corporate ideology, to one that respects human rights and the environment. I don't reject ALL change, just out of habit, nor do I harken back to the days when my people were hunter-gatherers. (ok, just a bit, but in fantasy form)

Drinking polluted water, being brainwashed by corporate greed, and indoctrinated in the underfunded school system are all things that all of us (with the possible exception of the scandinavians) have gone through, as did our parents and their parents etc. Back at least to the late 18th Century. So that makes it an old problem, and dealing with it conservative? It is not the problem itself I attack, it is the way of dealing with it. The current model pushes for economic growth at all costs, human and environmental. THAT is what I want to change...how we deal with these age-old problems.

Be radical, by all means, but do it with some reasoning. Do not just accept the latest bugbear as being the thing to attack. Do you accept fluoridation of your drinking water now? Ten years ago this was a hot topic. How about the spray cans you have in your pantry, what propellant do they use? I bet you don't know right now, without checking. What has happened to the hole in the ozone layer that was going to destroy us all by frying us with UV?
It's frustrating that all you know of me is what I write here...but that is the nature of the beast. The last thing I am is a talker in real life (no, I DO talk, but that's not my function:)). The projects I involve myself in, my politics, are all things that are REAL. That have concrete existence. My environmentalism, I tackle by using alternative energy and involving myself in green community projects. My interest in immigration I deal with by helping new immigrants through the convoluted process. My politics on gender I deal with first at home, and then on a wider scale through volunteer work with international women's movements. I began a bullying program in my community. I have applied for and been accepted into the LLB program so I can better deal with the legal issues surrounding labour, immigration, and other civil issues that have long bothered me. My radicalism is tiring beyond belief:), but it works better than it did when I only protested, or had 'meetings' with other 'radicals'. My radicalism is smarter, keener and more effective.

By the way, I don't have any spray cans in my pantry...nor do I use plastic bags, and there isn't flouride in my well water:(.

As you get older, and I have a few years on you, you do tend to think a little more before you jump. It is not that your anti-establishment ideas go away, it is just that you learn that screaming and jumping up and down about the state of the world very rarely achieves anything. More effective protest develops, mostly to do with selective purchasing, applying your tiny force to the communal financial lever. When this adds to the rest of the ex-radicals, the force is considerable and actually gets some things done.
I know it seems like I do a lot of screaming and jumping, but mostly on NS it's just a way to solidify my ideas. Yes, I think more before I jump, and I plan better. That way, what I do has more impact. That doesn't mean I'm less radical...just smarter about it. However, going back to my first post, I don't equate 'thinking before jumping' with 'making peace with the system'.

Also, you have less energy as you get older. I think it was that bastion of right wing thinking, R.A. Heinlein, that made the best comment I have ever seen about this: "It's amazing how much mature wisdom resembles being too tired." Oh believe me, I understand this. I live in exhaustion...but I wouldn't have it any other way!

How about you? Do you believe conservatism or 'making peace with the system' is an unavoidable part of 'growing up'?

I for one want to be a Raging Granny...
No. I know so many people of all ages and political stripes.

I am convinced that age has nothing to do with your politics.

People don't as a rule get more conservative as they get older. Some get more liberal.

Believe it or not, I used to be a conservative socialist!

Since Grade 5 (my political beginnings) people told me, "When you get older, you make peace with the system, and become more conservative". It always annoyed me, because I doubted my political ideas would change so much, but I was patted on the head, and told, "You'll see". So my question is:

When is this conservatism supposed to start? I'm 27 now and I'm more radically left each passing year, not less. No one I know who had strong political beliefs has grown more conservative.

How about you? Do you believe conservatism or 'making peace with the system' is an unavoidable part of 'growing up'?

I for one want to be a Raging Granny...

There are no garuantee's that anyone will change, but I'd say Chruchill's quote, "Show me a young man who is a conservative and I'll show you a man with no heart. Show me an old man who is a liberal and I'll show you a man with no brain." is germaine to the subject. Perhaps you just haven't grown up enough yet. Usually, kids tend to opposite authoritarian parents and sometimes remain rebelious forever, but it usually has more to do with parental relationships than actually political ideology. Those who move beyond the rebelion against authority tend towards centrism, in my experience, picking and chosing sides of specific issues on the basis of personal experience.

my thinking is kinda 'somebody, somewhere has got to care about the system and to work for a better future...may as well be me'. main problem is though im lazy and have no idea how to begin trying to change stuff. one of my dream jobs though would be in the UN (nice & high up of course )


ARRGGGHHH!!!! NOT THE UN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kind of one of those "the system is too corrupt to change from the inside" issues at play here...
oh, shit. i wrote that while really quite stoned ( :( ) and reading it now it kinda sounds like a load of ideolistic crap :headbang:

Since Grade 5 (my political beginnings) people told me, "When you get older, you make peace with the system, and become more conservative". It always annoyed me, because I doubted my political ideas would change so much, but I was patted on the head, and told, "You'll see". So my question is:

When is this conservatism supposed to start? I'm 27 now and I'm more radically left each passing year, not less. No one I know who had strong political beliefs has grown more conservative.

How about you? Do you believe conservatism or 'making peace with the system' is an unavoidable part of 'growing up'?

I for one want to be a Raging Granny...

People seem to mistake apathy for growing up.

Always question the system and, if you find something wrong, try and fix it. just don't get so used to the railing that you make things up that need to be fixed just to have something to do. =)

Ah...the apparent contradiction...let me make myself more clear. The kind of change I am 'pleading' for (actually working towards, really, because talking gets you only so far) is a paradigm change from the current unsustainable, corporate ideology, to one that respects human rights and the environment. I don't reject ALL change, just out of habit, nor do I harken back to the days when my people were hunter-gatherers. (ok, just a bit, but in fantasy form)

At the risk of going seriously off topic, given your enviromentalist position, what do you have against GM foods?

So that makes it an old problem, and dealing with it conservative? It is not the problem itself I attack, it is the way of dealing with it. The current model pushes for economic growth at all costs, human and environmental. THAT is what I want to change...how we deal with these age-old problems.

I was just examining the types of issues you cited, some new, some old.


It's frustrating that all you know of me is what I write here...but that is the nature of the beast. The last thing I am is a talker in real life (no, I DO talk, but that's not my function:)). The projects I involve myself in, my politics, are all things that are REAL. That have concrete existence. My environmentalism, I tackle by using alternative energy and involving myself in green community projects. My interest in immigration I deal with by helping new immigrants through the convoluted process. My politics on gender I deal with first at home, and then on a wider scale through volunteer work with international women's movements. I began a bullying program in my community. I have applied for and been accepted into the LLB program so I can better deal with the legal issues surrounding labour, immigration, and other civil issues that have long bothered me. My radicalism is tiring beyond belief:), but it works better than it did when I only protested, or had 'meetings' with other 'radicals'. My radicalism is smarter, keener and more effective.

Which pretty much coincides with the point I was making. Here on the forum all one can do is talk, but in RL there are many options to do something more effective, but these are generally less noticable than the placard waving radical student protest.

By the way, I don't have any spray cans in my pantry...nor do I use plastic bags, and there isn't flouride in my well water:(.

Good for you :p
I bet though that there are many radicals from the eighties who have forgotten all about these things.


I know it seems like I do a lot of screaming and jumping, but mostly on NS it's just a way to solidify my ideas. Yes, I think more before I jump, and I plan better. That way, what I do has more impact. That doesn't mean I'm less radical...just smarter about it. However, going back to my first post, I don't equate 'thinking before jumping' with 'making peace with the system'.

Oh believe me, I understand this. I live in exhaustion...but I wouldn't have it any other way!

The problem is one of profile. The effective campaigner tends to be talking things through behind closed doors, not making a big hooha in the local press. As you get older you do not become less radical necessarily, you do become more efficient and experienced, or you die of exhaustion when you add family responsabilities on top of the radical protest.

I've found myself becoming more liberal over time for the last few years, and then, all of a sudden, I stopped. Since the middle of the summer I have either been staying quasi-libertarian or even becoming more conservative. Who knows.

Since Grade 5 (my political beginnings) people told me, "When you get older, you make peace with the system, and become more conservative".
I personally know two radical communists who are well over 60 years old, and I'm guessing they would strongly disagree with that statement.

As for myself, I began as a slightly left-of-center social democrat when I first got interested in politics (back when I was 16 years old), and now I'm a communist. 'nuff said. :)

I don't think it is necessarily true that people become less radical as they get older although this may be the case with some people. I am 16 and have been a radical Communist for over a year. Before then I was probably a social-democrat and supported regulated private enterpise. I don't expect my political views to change as I get older and I hope I always remain opposed to the capitalist system which is driving millions of people into poverty and misery and is tearing society apart in the interests of private profit.

When the establishment and the media call Jorge Bush the face of conservatism, it is quite obvious how Far Left the "system" is.
wait, let me guess, Hitler wasn't fascist enough for you, either :).
He uses the official Fox News political chart:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/EdricO/PolitCompFoxNews.gif

This reminds me of something Winston Churchill once said:

"If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."

I think it's true. You get conservative as you go on. I find this happening to me at age 19.

A Liberal is a Conservative that hasn't been mugged yet.

The statement probably comes from the fact that some people learn to hate taxes once they get jobs. As they hate taxes, they start hating the causes those taxes go to that do not immediately benefit themselves (i.e. why feed the hungry when think you'll never go hungry yourself).

I used to more conservative, or rather, authoritarian, when I was younger...I was pro-life for some time, supported the death penalty, believed in outlawing sex outside of marriage, believed that gays should keep to themselves, was uncomfortable around people of other races, and generally only associated myself with Christians. One issue I believed more strongly in was that children should be given more credit, since i thought children were always given the short end of the stick.

Now, I am pro-choice (or rather, more pro-choice...I don't count myself as either pro-life or pro-choice really), oppose the death penalty, believe in thorough sex education but no laws regulating sex (outside of rape and age of consent, of course), believe in gay rights, and associate with people of any race and religion. I am a bleeding-heart liberal and an avid Bush hater, and while I once would have supported kicking Saddam out of Iraq, when Dubya announced he wanted to do it, I opposed it. I am not an isolationist by any stretch of the imagination. I just don't think we need to go killing dictators willy-nilly just for the oil. Especially when I understand that someone worse can prop up in his place.

If we went into Iraq "just for the oil" why is gas 2 dollars a gallon? Can't you Liberals come up with a new slogan for the war with Iraq?

Since Grade 5 (my political beginnings) people told me, "When you get older, you make peace with the system, and become more conservative". It always annoyed me, because I doubted my political ideas would change so much, but I was patted on the head, and told, "You'll see". So my question is:

When is this conservatism supposed to start? I'm 27 now and I'm more radically left each passing year, not less. No one I know who had strong political beliefs has grown more conservative.

How about you? Do you believe conservatism or 'making peace with the system' is an unavoidable part of 'growing up'?

I for one want to be a Raging Granny...
Dude(tte?), same thing here. I'm all, "Man, the government sucks wild monkey butt!", but apparently people think I'll become more conservative with age. Ha! I'll probably become more radical just to prove them wrong! I'm stubborn like that. ;)

There are no garuantee's that anyone will change, but I'd say Chruchill's quote, "Show me a young man who is a conservative and I'll show you a man with no heart. Show me an old man who is a liberal and I'll show you a man with no brain." is germaine to the subject. Perhaps you just haven't grown up enough yet. Usually, kids tend to opposite authoritarian parents and sometimes remain rebelious forever, but it usually has more to do with parental relationships than actually political ideology. Those who move beyond the rebelion against authority tend towards centrism, in my experience, picking and chosing sides of specific issues on the basis of personal experience.
That sentence exactly descibes what I'm asking about. The idea of 'growing up' or 'maturing' meaning an eventual sliding into conservatism. Why is that assumed? I understand the centrist appeal...most people are conservative on some points, and liberal on others, but overall, I don't believe most people are smack dab in the middle politically or economically...they usually lean overall to one side or the other. Do you personally believe that centrism, or conservatism or lack of 'rebellion' is a hallmark of maturity, and do people who age without becoming less 'rebellious' remain 'immature'? Or do people just get tired of fighting and live with things the way they are?

People seem to mistake apathy for growing up.

Always question the system and, if you find something wrong, try and fix it. just don't get so used to the railing that you make things up that need to be fixed just to have something to do. =)
Oh come on...like the "All you can eat crab leg night" ISN'T a major issue that needs action NOW! :p

Note: action to be planned...serious binge eating...

At the risk of going seriously off topic, given your enviromentalist position, what do you have against GM foods?
Seriously? Okay. My big problem with GM foods is that we don't know the effect of this food in the long run (on humans), we don't know how natural cross pollination is going to affect indigenous plants (some cases of causing seed sterility have already been found), and GM foods often are 'geared' to work only with specific pesticides or expensive chemical 'starters', making organic farming of some strains impossible. There is also the issue of patenting genes...Monsato was recently awarded a patent on an indigenous sorghum variety which had been carefully cross-bred by the local population over many generations. That's like going into your house, grabbing your kids and saying, "I'm patenting their genes. Now you have to pay me for your child." Just weird. A farmer in Saskatchewan recently lost a case in which GM seeds had 'blown' onto his land and he allowed them to grow, refusing to pay the company that accused him of stealing. He lost, because the courts decided he should have figured out which seeds were patented and plucked them out, or paid up. (There were a small portion of these plants, spread out amongst his own crops, which lends credence to his defense that he didn't deliberately steal or plant them.)

The problem is one of profile. The effective campaigner tends to be talking things through behind closed doors, not making a big hooha in the local press. As you get older you do not become less radical necessarily, you do become more efficient and experienced, or you die of exhaustion when you add family responsabilities on top of the radical protest.
I can agree with you here, that this is the reality. I don't think it is the implied meaning of saying you 'make peace with' the system as you age. I think the implied meaning is you learn you can't win, and you give up, and we'll say that's maturity so we don't feel bad about not doing anything.

Protest has limited functionality. Agitation alone does very little. Just like talk.

Then again, we can't do much else in this context...so just picture me acting on these issues in your head:).

You get conservative as you go on. I find this happening to me at age 19.
Is that inevitable? Or even desireable? Who is to say you won't change your politics to more leftist as you get older?

If we went into Iraq "just for the oil" why is gas 2 dollars a gallon? Can't you Liberals come up with a new slogan for the war with Iraq?
:rolleyes: Another deluded individual who foolishly thinks that they would somehow share in any 'booty' from Iraq.

Sorry DP, one thing the oil companies won't let happen is for the price of oil to fall. Iraq's oil was secured for the oil companies benifit, not the consumers.

I can't believe how many of you Bush supporters use that same lame arguement. Like the oil companies would somehow give up billions in potential profit. You obviously don't have a clear grasp on the concept of profiteering.

You know what it all boils down to? I dislike being told that optimism and working for change is a 'young' or 'immature' thing, and that pessimism and inaction are 'mature'. Most of the people who have said such things to me are the ones who complain about EVERYTHING, yet get upset if you suggest that maybe those things they don't like could be changed.

I'm far from old...I'm just worried there is some speed-trap out there in old age land that will catch me, hold me down and brand me a conservative some day...
:eek:

I'm far from old...I'm just worried there is some speed-trap out there in old age land that will catch me, hold me down and brand me a conservative some day...
:eek:They don't 'catch' you, you surrender to them. As long as you don't do that you'll be fine. I have a couple of Aunts in their 60's who are far from conservative. At work we're spit into two camps, the Fox news lovers and those of us with a brain. The split is about equal and nobody's under 40.

:rolleyes: Another deluded individual who foolishly thinks that they would somehow share in any 'booty' from Iraq.

Sorry DP, one thing the oil companies won't let happen is for the price of oil to fall. Iraq's oil was secured for the oil companies benifit, not the consumers.

I can't believe how many of you Bush supporters use that same lame arguement. Like the oil companies would somehow give up billions in potential profit. You obviously don't have a clear grasp on the concept of profiteering.
I can't believe how many of you liberals try to jam the war for oil crap down our throats. Where is your proof?

I can't believe how many of you liberals try to jam the war for oil crap down our throats. Where is your proof?
NO! Do not hijack this thread! Make another one for this particular pissing contest, please!

Maybe people get grumpier as they get older, and that makes them more conservative. Of course, some liberalism may be based upon naïvity, and will be lessened as the person gets older and becomes less naïve. I think I have got more right-wing economically, but more left-wing in social issues.

Arguably, when you're young you have the energy, passion and inner fire to crusade for causes, to change the world and conquer it at the same time. As you get older, ennui, a sense of content and a preoccupation with other things in life - in addition to your body slowly failing you and in some cases your mind as well - may take these qualities away from you.

One could then make the argument that it is these qualities that feeds the progressive fire. Young idealists are often associated with progressivism, reform and fighting to change things [although ironically, it's the old, distinguished, establishment-ized men already in government that are needed to really change things]. Maybe that's because they're the ones with the right combination of energy, naivete and confidence to try it, whereas the middle-aged corporate slave is more concerned with paying off the mortgage and finding a cure for male pattern baldness.

Really, just musings. We can never know the answer to this question; we can only speculate. Who, after all, can truly know the workings of the human mind and spirit?

Usually, kids tend to opposite authoritarian parents and sometimes remain rebelious forever, but it usually has more to do with parental relationships than actually political ideology. Those who move beyond the rebelion against authority tend towards centrism, in my experience, picking and chosing sides of specific issues on the basis of personal experience.
any radical rebeliousness i feel wasn't/isn't through rebellion against my parents' authority - i never had anything to rebel against as they have always treated me with respect. so while this may be the case for some, it is not necessarily 'growing up' or 'maturing'. because i never went through my rebellious phase, and yet am (perhaps not revolutionary, but) still a fairly radical left winger - with ideas becoming more radical year-on-year (clicky (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=396064&page=1&pp=15)). does this mean i am immature?