NationStates Jolt Archive

Pick!

Freedom, as peace is boring, or even worse, with peace, we might just all be dead.

freedom, thank you

without freedom, what good is peace?

Wasn't there a thread identical to this just recently?

I like Freedom - especially the ZGMF-X10A Freedom . ..

Freedom!

If I had peace, what would prevent me from being free?

If I had peace, what would prevent me from being free?
One could live under tyranny, but during relatively peaceful times.

One could live under tyranny, but during relatively peaceful times.
But how would one stop me from being free, if not by force?

But how would one stop me from being free, if not by force?
Yeah, good point . . . the use of force (against the individual) kinda negates peace.

But how would one stop me from being free, if not by force?
Eh, brainwashing, just out and out having everyone be dead, the usual.

Eh, brainwashing, just out and out having everyone be dead, the usual.
I would say that brainwashing involves force. So, my choices are freedom or death?

Cake, please.

I would say that brainwashing involves force. So, my choices are freedom or death?

Cake, please.
*hands Pythagosaurus a piece of cake*

If I had peace, what would prevent me from being free?But how would one stop me from being free, if not by force?
Yeah...I'm thinking no. Have you ever read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley? That's the first example to come to my head. Not to mention the fact that there can be force without war. States (not in the provincial sense) with slaves and oppressed people(s) do not have to be at war or anything. Oppression does not negate peace at all. In fact, the most effective way to bring about peace is through restriction of freedom. Take the American Civil War, for instance. Freedom was encroached upon in the name of peace and unity.

I would say that brainwashing involves force.
Propaganda is force in only one sense of the word, in that it is an influential entity. It is not force in the sense you're using.

It doesn't matter. I took the cake.

I pick... Peedom!

Peace or Freedom is a very general choice and as with most things "it depends". But I think peace is generally better than freedom. Would you rather be ignorant and happy or be knowing and unhappy. Personally, I think if you're the happy then not much else matters, unless you're putting other people at risk

If I had peace, what would prevent me from being free?

Um ... jails are peacefull too.

Peace = Freedom :D

I wonder how many of the 76% who voted for Freedom support the war in Iraq?

I wonder how many of the 76% who voted for Freedom support the war in Iraq?

I for one do not. Maybe I would have supported it, if the Iraqis had been free to choose if they were invaded. The US did not exactly ask them, their opinion.

Freedom, means freedom form having others impose their rules on you. Any others.

I for one do not. Maybe I would have supported it, if the Iraqis had been free to choose if they were invaded. The US did not exactly ask them, their opinion.

Freedom, means freedom form having others impose their rules on you. Any others.

We aren't "imposing" our will on them---we are helping them transition into their own government.

By saying the "US did not exactly ask them", are you suggesting that Iraqis would rather be under the rule of Saddam Hussein than be occupied temporarily by U.S. troops?

Peace = Freedom :D
How can people be so disillusioned?

YOU CAN TAKE ME LIFE...BUT YE CANNAE TAKE ME FREEDOM!!!!

Well without freedom, there would be no peace. And without peace, you couldnt have freedom.

But how would one stop me from being free, if not by force?
That reminded me of a short story where some aliens conquer earth. They prevent people from fighting back by taking control of the realm of probabilities. They would switch every possible occurance where humans fight back or do something to free themselves with one where they didn't. The teacher at a school likened it to having two doors, behind one is a machine to fight the aliens and behind the other is two more doors; if the humans picked the door with the machine, the aliens would swap the room behind it to the one with doors.

That wasn't elegantly explained, and the whole story is rather fanciful, but I guess you could concieve of something like that to keep people in a peaceful stagnation without freedom.

Well without freedom, there would be no peace. And without peace, you couldnt have freedom.
Really? Because there are plenty of examples of freedom without peace, and peace without freedom. Especially the latter.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

-Ben Franklin

(Journalist, publisher, author, philanthropist, public servant, scientist, philosopher, diplomat, and inventor)

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

-Ben Franklin
Thank you! I need to remember that quote more often, as I've said it many times, just less eloquently put.

We aren't "imposing" our will on them---we are helping them transition into their own government.

By saying the "US did not exactly ask them", are you suggesting that Iraqis would rather be under the rule of Saddam Hussein than be occupied temporarily by U.S. troops?

Point 1. You are imposing your will on them. What choice of government form did they have? If they had wanted, and they probably did given their traditional culture, a clerical theocracy, there was no possibility of the USA allowing that to happen. They were going to be democratic, like it or not. That is imposition.

Point 2. No, I am suggesting that the even the majority of Iraqi dissidents, resident in the UK, France, Germany etc. at the time, did not support a US invasion of their land. To them, remember, not to you or me, but to them, the US is no better than Sadam Hussein. This is not true, but it is what they believed.

Freedom has to include the possibility of being wrong, and of others allowing you to be wrong.

Freedom. Freedom is natural, peace isn't. It's because of striving for peace that we have environmental disasters on our hands. Freedom is the greatest thing because it goes against communality and is all about individuality, which is something nobody seems to have ever acheived, and most people who seem to love it don't know it. Hey, I just realised I am not a commie!

Freedom, since real "peace" is incompatible with spirit-crushing authoritarianism.

Give me freedom, or give me death.

How can people be so disillusioned?
Seems that you might be the one that is disillusioned?

From Encarta:

at peace:

1. in a state of friendship and freedom from conflict

2. deadused euphemistically

3. in a state of calm and serenity

Perhaps you have never experienced any peace?

Seems that you might be the one that is disillusioned?

From Encarta:

at peace:

1. in a state of friendship and freedom from conflict

2. deadused euphemistically

3. in a state of calm and serenity

Perhaps you have never experienced any peace?
Well, the disillusionment I was specifically referring to was the concept that there can be no freedom without peace, or vice versa. It's just ridiculous, and the people who think that any restricting of freedom automatically is unpeaceful...I just can't see how they could possibly think that.

If they're honest, and just say that they prefer to peace to freedom, then that would be different. That's not disillusioned at all, that is just cowardly in my opinion. A completely different argument.

I have occasionally been at peace, but do not value it much. I prefer excitement and stimulation to the monotony of "peace". Sure, I am against things like violence, but I value my freedom far more than my safety.

freedom since obviously you can be at peace but still be ruled by a suppressive tyrant

Well, the disillusionment I was specifically referring to was the concept that there can be no freedom without peace, or vice versa. It's just ridiculous, and the people who think that any restricting of freedom automatically is unpeaceful...I just can't see how they could possibly think that.

If they're honest, and just say that they prefer to peace to freedom, then that would be different. That's not disillusioned at all, that is just cowardly in my opinion. A completely different argument.

I have occasionally been at peace, but do not value it much. I prefer excitement and stimulation to the monotony of "peace". Sure, I am against things like violence, but I value my freedom far more than my safety.
Translation: Gnostikos' bullshit detector was going off, being around so much ideological babbling.

Very good post, too bad it's undervalued these days.

We aren't "imposing" our will on them---we are helping them transition into their own government.

By saying the "US did not exactly ask them", are you suggesting that Iraqis would rather be under the rule of Saddam Hussein than be occupied temporarily by U.S. troops?

100,000 Iraqi civilians have died since we invaded. Saddam never would have killed that many in this amount of time (almost 2 years now). So, yes. I would rather be living under the Tyrannincal, bathist regime of Saddam Hussein than be dead, or have to worry about being blown up every day. They're not better off now. You can't be better off dead than alive, no matter how bad life is. However, this isn't the thread for this argument, so I will make no more posts on it.

Freedom, since real "peace" is incompatible with spirit-crushing authoritarianism.

Give me freedom, or give me death.

I believe the actual quote you are referring to is give me LIBERTY or give me death. Not that it matters. You got your point across in a good way.

I believe the actual quote you are referring to is give me LIBERTY or give me death. Not that it matters. You got your point across in a good way.
Damn! You're right. *blush*

Freedom without peace - violent anarchy.

Peace without freedom - Slavery.


Both exist in some form.

Without peace, what good is freedom?

Without peace, what good is freedom?

Better to serve in Heaven than to rule in Hell ?

Contrary to popular belief, one can have both freedom and peace.

It's not an option, though, so I guess I'll have to go with freedom.

Freedom.
But, making war to "free another countries" is kinda lame. You can make a war to free yourself from something, "freeing" other is just imposing them a new kind of slavery.
Just look how, after the black slaves were free, how long took them to actually stop being slaves (there´s not that much difference beetween slavery and an extremely underpaid job). It took them to go out and fight to trully get their freedom (not like "farmers who want to kick them out of their property because immigrants are more lucrative" vs "farmers who thinks slaves can produce more then italians")

Freedom. Without peace you are left to earn everything. Makes it more valuable.

100,000 Iraqi civilians have died since we invaded. Saddam never would have killed that many in this amount of time (almost 2 years now). So, yes. I would rather be living under the Tyrannincal, bathist regime of Saddam Hussein than be dead, or have to worry about being blown up every day. They're not better off now. You can't be better off dead than alive, no matter how bad life is. However, this isn't the thread for this argument, so I will make no more posts on it.

I have no idea what side of the argument this guy is on. He seems to be arguing with those who say freedom is better than peace, and are using that against the Iraq war, but then his argument against it is that they were better off in a tyranny than dying?

P.S. I chose freedom.

Contrary to popular belief, one can have both freedom and peace.
Nowhere did the original poster say that they were mutually exclusive. This is a 'which would you prefer' poll.

Freedom.

I can fight for my peace, paradox though it may be.

I can fight for my peace, paradox though it may be.

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.
A classic... always loved it, always will --- its just so damned true. :)

Freedom for me! If I am free, I can find peace within myself. If I am free, I am free not to be unpeaceful. If other people want to fight, that's their choice! If I'm not free, there's no guarantee that I'll have peace. If I have peace and no freedom, then....wait, that's impossible. At least for me. That doesn't sound peaceful at all!

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

Not really.

Virginity is a one-time thing. Peace and Conflict rise and fall.

If I kill every living creature on the planet, it'll be nice and peaceful afterwards, so long as the weather or the planet don't go nuts.

freedom.but a better question is happiness or freedom.ask that,should be more fun.

freedom.but a better question is happiness or freedom.ask that,should be more fun.

A better one, I agree.

Trick is, for some, there's not much of a difference, unless you're talking a permanent drugged state or being in to Bondage -way- too much.