NationStates Jolt Archive

Its almost a paradox. One to which few of the allied nations rearly took the time to try and unravel after the first and second world wars. People can be proud of the allied dead quite easily because they gave their lives for what is seen now as a nobel cause, freedom etc. But how exactly do the Germans deal with their loss. They had some of the highest loss to and they can hardly say that they died for "freedom" or in anyway defending Germany. The song in "Team America: World Police" freedom isn't free talks about all the allied lives given for freedom. But what about the sacrifice of the German lives. How do you deal with that?

Its almost a paradox. One to which few of the allied nations rearly took the time to try and unravel after the first and second world wars. People can be proud of the allied dead quite easily because they gave their lives for what is seen now as a nobel cause, freedom etc. But how exactly do the Germans deal with their loss. They had some of the highest loss to and they can hardly say that they died for "freedom" or in anyway defending Germany. The song in "Team America: World Police" freedom isn't free talks about all the allied lives given for freedom. But what about the sacrifice of the German lives. How do you deal with that?

By saying "Tough Shit". They shouldn't have started the war if they didn't want the casualties.

The soldiers themselves still died for their country. Soldiers as a rule don't choose who to fight.

By saying "Tough Shit". They shouldn't have started the war if they didn't want the casualties.

Its not so much they didnt want them, but the fact they are dead. We (the Allies) take pride in our dead becuase they died to defend us. How is that true of the Germans. How do they deal with their war dead when they lost? You cant just dismiss over a million deaths by saying "they started it"

They usualy get ignored. And if they are recognised it's only to villify every last one of them. Anyone who dares to say anything that is in any way positive immediatly get's the Nazi label. It's the same policy that the government uses to deal with criticism of Israel and to an extend of the US.
The only one who get's a little recognition is Oscar Schindler which was approved of by the Jewish council. But no one ever heard of Johan Rabe.

How do they deal with their war dead when they lost? You cant just dismiss over a million deaths by saying "they started it"
Yes you can. Actually thats what they are doing.

As a German I say that I'm ashamed of what happened in this part of history and that my ancestors died for a wrong cause and mainly because of their own fault.

But also I want to add that it really gets on my nerves that in Germany you can't say nothing against the israelic goverment and his policy without being called a Nazi or an Antisemit.

As a German I say that I'm ashamed of what happened in this part of history and that my ancestors died for a wrong cause and mainly because of their own fault.
Ah. So you believe that Kölers speech infront of the Knesset saying the holocaust is a part of the German identity is right? Thereby inderectly labeling every generation to come as guilty.

But also I want to add that it really gets on my nerves that in Germany you can't say nothing against the israelic goverment and his policy without being called a Nazi or an Antisemit.
Don't even dare bring up Dresden.

Ah. So you believe that Kölers speech infront of the Knesset saying the holocaust is a part of the German identity is right? Thereby inderectly labeling every generation to come as guilty.
No, I don't believe that, and I don't believe that my generation or my father's are to be blamed for the Holocaust but I still feel shame when I think of what my country has done between 1933 and 1945.

Don't even dare bring up Dresden.
You're right on that, but what Apfel and his companions did was most ridiculous.

No, I don't believe that, and I don't believe that my generation or my father's are to be blamed for the Holocaust but I still feel shame when I think of what my country has done between 1933 and 1945.
Aha. At least a little common sense. Unlike what I encounter on most German forums right before I get banned.


You're right on that, but what Apfel and his companions did was most ridiculous.
Yes. But what I find even more ridiculouse is that Schröder & Co have the nerve to call them enemies of democracy. And wants to outlaw them when they use the rights they have under the Saxon constitution. Love them or hate them. But in my opinion Schröder is more of an enemy of democracy cause he wants to outlaw a party with an unpopular agenda. It's their own fault that they couldn't do it right the first time. Right now they did nothing illegal as far as I can tell.

Aha. At least a little common sense. Unlike what I encounter on most German forums right before I get banned.
Most odd, because on the German forums I know there are always some pure blooded comrades who swagger all the time that Hitler's ideals were noble and that the fourth Reich will come some day.

But in my opinion Schröder is more of an enemy of democracy cause he wants to outlaw a party with an unpopular agenda.
And first of all, it would do nothing. The voters would simply give their votes to the DVU on the next election.

Right now they did nothing illegal as far as I can tell.
I'm not sure about that. They said that Dresden had nothing to do with the 09/01/39 which is some kind of instigation if you ask me.

i dont see why germans shouldnt honor their war dead. those men fought and died for their country just like the soldiers of the allies did. even when your country is wrong, its still you country and you fight and die to defend it.

Most odd, because on the German forums I know there are always some pure blooded comrades who swagger all the time that Hitler's ideals were noble and that the fourth Reich will come some day.
Yeah. But those are special forums. So far I haven't found one that would let me post freely.


And first of all, it would do nothing. The voters would simply give their votes to the DVU on the next election.
Probably. And they are helping them with this non sense and are too dumb to even notice. :D


I'm not sure about that. They said that Dresden had nothing to do with the 09/01/39 which is some kind of instigation if you ask me.
They said it during a session of the Landtag. The Saxon constitution protects them from legal consequences. So they did nothing wrong.

even when your country is wrong, its still you country and you fight and die to defend it.
Yes, but the Wehrmacht soldiers didn't fight to defend Germany they fought only for the world domination phantasies of some megalomaniacs and to bring ruin to other countries, their populations and their jewish communitys.

i dont see why germans shouldnt honor their war dead. those men fought and died for their country just like the soldiers of the allies did. even when your country is wrong, its still you country and you fight and die to defend it.
Unless your in a Nazi bar I wouldn't say that out loud if you ever go to Germany.

Yes, but the Wehrmacht soldiers didn't fight to defend Germany they fought only for the world domination phantasies of some megalomaniacs and to bring ruin to other countries, their populations and their jewish communitys.
Oh now you sound like a true German. All soldiers are guilty.

They said it during a session of the Landtag. The Saxon constitution protects them from legal consequences. So they did nothing wrong.
Ok, it wasn't wrong, but it was highly to be doubted.

Ok, it wasn't wrong, but it was highly to be doubted.
Bitte wie meinen?

Oh now you sound like a true German. All soldiers are guilty.
I said only that they didn't fight for Germany's defence because there never was a theat to Germany before 1939.

Bitte wie meinen?
You may excuse my bad English. I'm still working on that. I wanted to say that it wasn't moral correct, because it simply wasn't true.

Yes, but the Wehrmacht soldiers didn't fight to defend Germany they fought only for the world domination phantasies of some megalomaniacs and to bring ruin to other countries, their populations and their jewish communitys.

and were the wehrmacht soldiers overwhelmingly nazis who were fighting for the nazi way of life and to exterminate all jews in europe? i have no idea, really. i just doubt that most of those young men had many political beliefs at all

sure they may have longed for the german domination of europe ( or indeed the whole world) but many countries have tried that and failed and still honor their war dead.

are the french ashamed of the napoleonic war dead? are the turks ashamed of the ottoman war dead? should i be ashamed of the US soldiers who were involved in the mexican american war or the indian wars? im NOT even if i am rather ashamed of my country's participation on those conflicts.

those men fought and died for germany and germans should honor them as much as we americans honor our confederate war dead.

I said only that they didn't fight for Germany's defence because there never was a theat to Germany before 1939.
Yet you imply that they were all aware of it.
(Versailles, occupation of the Rhineland by Belgium and France, ceeding of territory, Danzig, Western Prussia, Poznan, crap economy, hyper inflation, mass unemployment, loss of the oversea colonies.) Now tell me you didn't feel threatened even a bit if you lived in those days.


You may excuse my bad English. I'm still working on that. I wanted to say that it wasn't moral correct, because it simply wasn't true.
And what exactly did they say? They called the fire bombing of Dresden a holocaust. I can't say I disagree with that. Since there was no reason whatsoever to do so in the first place. And if you like, it was HIGHLY immoral.
Proof me wrong if you can.

and were the wehrmacht soldiers overwhelmingly nazis who were fighting for the nazi way of life and to exterminate all jews in europe?
Thats what they like us to believe.

How is that true of the Germans. How do they deal with their war dead when they lost?
C'mon, there were no deaths. From 1938 to May of 1945 the entire country was on vacation. Surely you've seen the Family Guy where this was explained by the tour guide.

and were the wehrmacht soldiers overwhelmingly nazis who were fighting for the nazi way of life and to exterminate all jews in europe? i have no idea, really. i just doubt that most of those young men had many political beliefs at all

sure they may have longed for the german domination of europe ( or indeed the whole world) but many countries have tried that and failed and still honor their war dead.

are the french ashamed of the napoleonic war dead? are the turks ashamed of the ottoman war dead? should i be ashamed of the US soldiers who were involved in the mexican american war or the indian wars? im NOT even if i am rather ashamed of my country's participation on those conflicts.

those men fought and died for germany and germans should honor them as much as we americans honor our confederate war dead.
I don't think that you can comparise the harm scale of the Holocaust and the war in russia with these wars.
You may think otherwise, but I see nothing honourable in people killing each other...

Yet you imply that they were all aware of it.
(Versailles, occupation of the Rhineland by Belgium and France, ceeding of territory, Danzig, Western Prussia, Poznan, crap economy, hyper inflation, mass unemployment, loss of the oversea colonies.) Now tell me you didn't feel threatened even a bit if you lived in those days.
At least, not threatened enough to invade and occupate whole Europe.

And what exactly did they say? They called the fire bombing of Dresden a holocaust. I can't say I disagree with that. Since there was no reason whatsoever to do so in the first place. And if you like, it was HIGHLY immoral.
Proof me wrong if you can.
Actually, I mean Apfels sentence:
"There was no coherence between Dresden and the 09/01/1939 or the 01/30/1933."
That's just untrue.

At least, not threatened enough to invade and occupate whole Europe.
And how would they know what was to come? They had all been briefed about the Führers plans? They thought they were getting back the provinces they had been stripped of. And something I never quite understood, people always seem to forget that the Soviet Union lend a helping hand with Poland.


Actually, I mean Apfels sentence:
"There was no coherence between Dresden and the 09/01/1939 or the 01/30/1933."
That's just untrue.
In what way?

And how would they know what was to come? They had all been briefed about the Führers plans? They thought they were getting back the provinces they had been stripped of.
That's a mentality problem I also blame my ancestors for. They "only carried out their orders", they marched into Russia because they "had their orders" they even continued fighting when the Russians were already surrounding Berlin and they were forced to send old men and children into battle, because they "had their orders".

And something I never quite understood, people always seem to forget that the Soviet Union lend a helping hand with Poland.
That's a moral question the Russians still have to face.

In what way?
Without Germany starting the war, the bombardment of Dresden would never have happened.

That's a mentality problem I also blame my ancestors for. They "only carried out their orders", they marched into Russia because they "had their orders" they even continued fighting when the Russians were already surrounding Berlin and they were forced to send old men and children into battle, because they "had their orders".
Pah. Thats a mentality that everyone has. But Germans are in this respect so fucking self centered as if they were alone. Sometimes I think Germans have become a people of masochists. Pretend that Germans only followed orders and forget that they actually had no clue as to what the Führer had in store. Also pretend that there was not a history before 1933. And then pretend that every war that Germany participated in was their fault.


That's a moral question the Russians still have to face.
Aber ja doch. Die Russen machen sich bestimmt nen Kopf deswegen. :rolleyes:


Without Germany starting the war, the bombardment of Dresden would never have happened.
Funny thing is Britain and France declared war on Germany. Not the other way around.

And what exactly did they say? They called the fire bombing of Dresden a holocaust. I can't say I disagree with that. Since there was no reason whatsoever to do so in the first place. And if you like, it was HIGHLY immoral.
Proof me wrong if you can.

Enough of your jackbootery Sir. Dresden was a legitimate millitary operation conducted in accordance with the laws of war. It did not involve wholesale rounding up and illegal execution of civillian populations.

Allied strategic bombing was conducted with the intention of degrading the Nazi war-fighting capability, and Dresden was conducted in the furtherence of that aim. The collateral damage to civilians was unfortunate, but unaviodable, in light of the Germans own refusal to capitulate to allied demands.

This has to be compared to Germany's deliberate policy of wholesale terrorization and slaughter of already subjugated peoples. It is errent nonsense to try and portray any actions by the western allies as in the same moral light as the Nazis.

I also find it telling that you choose to bemoan the legitimate actions of the allies at Dresden, and ignore the brutal reprisal tactics employed by the Russians.

This is no doubt because your natural Germanic antipathy towards the English speaking peoples, and their enlightened liberalism, has clouded you judgment on the matter.

Enough of your jackbootery Sir. Dresden was a legitimate millitary operation conducted in accordance with the laws of war. It did not involve wholesale rounding up and illegal execution of civillian populations.
Why bother rounding them up when you can simply bomb them.

Allied strategic bombing was conducted with the intention of degrading the Nazi war-fighting capability, and Dresden was conducted in the furtherence of that aim. The collateral damage to civilians was unfortunate, but unaviodable, in light of the Germans own refusal to capitulate to allied demands.

This has to be compared to Germany's deliberate policy of wholesale terrorization and slaughter of already subjugated peoples. It is errent nonsense to try and portray any actions by the western allies as in the same moral light as the Nazis.

I also find it telling that you choose to bemoan the legitimate actions of the allies at Dresden, and ignore the brutal reprisal tactics employed by the Russians.

This is no doubt because your natural Germanic antipathy towards the English speaking peoples, and their enlightened liberalism, has clouded you judgment on the matter.
I can't tell wether your seriouse or not. :confused:

Why bother rounding them up when you can simply bomb them.

I can't tell wether your seriouse or not. :confused:
He's a troll. No feeding please.

Pah. Thats a mentality that everyone has.
Maybe I'm an idealist, but I don't believe that other people like the British or the French would have gone this far. Unconditional obedience had a long history in Germany.
(Actually I mentioned that in my Abitur. I wonder which party the correcting teacher votes for. If it's the CDU, I'm doomed. I'm hoping for a Green voter of the '68 generation.^^)

But Germans are in this respect so fucking self centered as if they were alone. Sometimes I think Germans have become a people of masochists.
Maybe. But better masochists than war-mongers. :p

Pretend that Germans only followed orders and forget that they actually had no clue as to what the Führer had in store.
Actually, he had all his plans written down in "Mein Krampf".

Also pretend that there was not a history before 1933.
Actually there was one, and there was one after 1945,and that's the reason why I can be proud of Germany.

And then pretend that every war that Germany participated in was their fault.

WW2 was definitely Germany's fault. You can only blame the Allies for reacting too late on the German aggression.

Aber ja doch. Die Russen machen sich bestimmt nen Kopf deswegen.
Naturally, people tend to displacement if they aren't forced to face their demons.

Maybe I'm an idealist, but I don't believe that other people like the British or the French would have gone this far. Unconditional obedience had a long history in Germany.
(Actually I mentioned that in my Abitur. I wonder which party the correcting teacher votes for. If it's the CDU, I'm doomed. I'm hoping for a Green voter of the '68 generation.^^)
I could name a few examples where the French and Brits went above and beyond. But as long as you bash Germany hard enough you should pass the Abi with flying colours.
Unless he's a NPD voter of course.



Actually, he had all his plans written down in "Mein Krampf".
But how many people actually read it.


Actually there was one, and there was one after 1945,and that's the reason why I can be proud of Germany.
Carefull. You could be considerd a holocaust denier by admitting this.


WW2 was definitely Germany's fault. You can only blame the Allies for reacting too late on the German aggression.
Yep. Not like Canaris didn't pleaded with them.

I could name a few examples where the French and Brits went above and beyond.
Above and beyond the Holocaust and the casualties of WW2?

But as long as you bash Germany hard enough you should pass the Abi with flying colours.

The subject was about the question why the Weimar Republik failed. Very difficult to answer without bashing Germany.

But how many people actually read it.
None, but that doesn't excuse everything. Or do you really believe the "Wir haben doch überhaupt nichts davon gewusst"-story?

Carefull. You could be considerd a holocaust denier by admitting this.
You know what? That already has happen. An Israeli once called me so after asking me why I don't hate Germany. You can imagine what I give on those people.

You may think that I'm a Germany-hater with inferiority complexes. I don't care.

I don't think that you can comparise the harm scale of the Holocaust and the war in russia with these wars.
You may think otherwise, but I see nothing honourable in people killing each other...


im not arguing that the nazi cause was good or honorable. it wasnt

im just saying that no german should be ashamed of having a grandfather or great granfather who fought in ww2. that they fought for germany doesnt mean they were horrible people. some were. most were just soldiers fighting for their country no different than the americans, french, british, etc.

the evil came from the top not from the bottom. the german people of the 30's and 40's were not more evil than any other people, they got seduced into an evil government that quickly took control and overhwhelmed the good.

This is my take on the morality of Dresden.

1) The allies wanted to be CERTIAN of victory. They wanted the Germans to have no chance of being able to defeat them, or to come back to power in any significent way

2) Dresden was a significent industrial centre for munitions as well as various other things. It's destruction was key to the allied victory

3) There were civilian casulties, and these casulties were considerable, but the Germans did the same thing to Britian in trying to end their attacks on them.

4) The bombing of an key millitary/industrial city as part of a tatical plan of war is in no way simmilar to the extermination of a nonsubversive race of people on the grounds that you believe that that race is inferior to your own.

dresden...The bombing of an key millitary/industrial city.in that case every big city is a legitimate bombing target,
Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Kaboul, Bagdad, Falluha, Teheran, NewYork, Washington, Houston, Jacksonville, etc

1) The allies wanted to be CERTIAN of victory. They wanted the Germans to have no chance of being able to defeat them, or to come back to power in any significent way
The victory was already a certainty.

2) Dresden was a significent industrial centre for munitions as well as various other things. It's destruction was key to the allied victory
Please!!! Dresden was swamped with refugees and had nothing that could in any way considerd a key element.

3) There were civilian casulties, and these casulties were considerable, but the Germans did the same thing to Britian in trying to end their attacks on them.
More German civilians died in one night then British civilians in the entire war.

4) The bombing of an key millitary/industrial city as part of a tatical plan of war is in no way simmilar to the extermination of a nonsubversive race of people on the grounds that you believe that that race is inferior to your own.
Nothing in Dresden was of any tactical importance. They didn't even had any air defences. Some important city huh?

Above and beyond the Holocaust and the casualties of WW2?
Haiti, Witu land, the Boer war, the Napoleonic wars, the Indians in N America, Algeria.


The subject was about the question why the Weimar Republik failed. Very difficult to answer without bashing Germany.
Like I said. Bash it enough and you'll probably end as the best student of the class.


None, but that doesn't excuse everything. Or do you really believe the "Wir haben doch überhaupt nichts davon gewusst"-story?
So. Jetzt mal eben klartext. Ich habe diese lügen bis hier oben. :mad: Nein. Sie haben es nicht gewusst. Es gab vielleicht gerüchte. Aber wer glaubt schon gerüchten. Besonders solche ungeheuerlichen. Aber keiner der nicht direkt damit zu tun hatte konnte es wissen. Und wenn dir deine lehrer irgendwas anderes eintrichtern wollen sind sie entweder bescheuert und sollten sich ihr lehrgeld zurück zahlen lassen. Oder aber sie lügen euch einfach die hucke voll. Denn es ist ja nun mal so das Deutschland hass in der heimat schon in der schule vermittelt wird. Das dritte reich hatte die am besten organisierte propaganda die es je gegeben hat. Und das alle eigentlich davon wussten ist nichts weiter als der erfolgreiche versuch den mythos der deutschen erbschuld an die nächste generation weiter zu geben. Scheint bei dir ja gefruchtet zu haben. Und um Deutschland auch in zukunft künstlich unten zu halten. Das neueste beispiel dafür ist Kölers rede vor der knesset. Wie auch schon einige Israelische journalisten bemerkten wünschen sie sich endlich eine normalisierung der beziehungen wie sie zwischen zwei souveränen staaten sein sollten. Aber solange solche pflichtbesuche mit dazugehörenden schuldbekentnissen statt finden werden die Deutsch-Israelischen beziehungen nie normal sein.


You know what? That already has happen. An Israeli once called me so after asking me why I don't hate Germany. You can imagine what I give on those people.

You may think that I'm a Germany-hater with inferiority complexes. I don't care.
You threw yourself at his feet and begged for forgiveness crying crocodile tears.

C'mon, there were no deaths. From 1938 to May of 1945 the entire country was on vacation. Surely you've seen the Family Guy where this was explained by the tour guide.

Hahaha, yeah I laughed my ass of @ that one. The only other episode in which a german person appeared was the Sausage vendor at the Schnitzel fest who beat up the Polish and the Czech sausage vendors and took over their stands.

Do you think the makers of Family Guy hate Germany or do they just want to portray Germany as the favorite American stereotype?

im just saying that no german should be ashamed of having a grandfather or great granfather who fought in ww2. that they fought for germany doesnt mean they were horrible people. some were. most were just soldiers fighting for their country no different than the americans, french, british, etc.
I'm not ashamed of my grandfather. I'm ashamed of what my country did in those years.

@Neo Cannen:
The bombardment of Dresden was nothin more than an act of revenge.

@Von Witzleben:
Believe what you want, Kollege. The best organised propaganda ever existed couldn't hide that people in Germany disappeared from one day to another. To say that nobody did know anything isn't better than to say that everybody was a fanatic Nazi.
It seems that for you, one can only be ashamed and guilty or neither the one thing nor the other. Call me a traitor of the fatherland if you want. Sure, we can say that this whole thing lies in the past, that we have nothing to do with it and that is the best not to talk about it (like we did until '68). Maybe in 100 years we will have forgot any kind of historic responsibility. Than we can feel free to persecute ethnic minorities again.

Its almost a paradox. One to which few of the allied nations rearly took the time to try and unravel after the first and second world wars. People can be proud of the allied dead quite easily because they gave their lives for what is seen now as a nobel cause, freedom etc. But how exactly do the Germans deal with their loss. They had some of the highest loss to and they can hardly say that they died for "freedom" or in anyway defending Germany. The song in "Team America: World Police" freedom isn't free talks about all the allied lives given for freedom. But what about the sacrifice of the German lives. How do you deal with that?


When I was in london for new years I met a german who spoke excellent english.

We had some very interesting conversations about how in germany, according to him, pride in german culture and history is forbidden and taboo.

If there are any germans who can elaborate or give your impression on this, I would be quite appreciative.

I must add, not to defend the actions of germany but rather defend to a small degree some of its citizens in those days that people will do terrible things if the government tells them to.

Look to america today, americans shoot and bomb untold scores of civilians in iraq and torture prisoners.

My grandfather took serious injuries fighting for the allies, then later looted the shattered hulk of Dresden. Putting aside that I didn't see any profit from that particular action, I still don't really feel pride or anything in the wider conflict. I might have found it interesting to hear more of his opinions on the matter, but he's been dead for over a decade, so that's out.

In the end I'm not into this whole nationalism gig. When I stop for a moment and think about the good and brave things that some Germans did during the Nazi era* (be they in resisting the Nazis or in saving comrades on the field of battle, regardless of political leaning) and realise that I'm not supposed to feel proud of them, much as I may be allowed to respect them, I realise how absurd it is to feel proud of Britons for similar actions. Shaming a nation or a generation is absurd.

How do the families of dead criminals remember or cope? Patriotism be damned, on to the human.

*I say Nazi because I wrote this in mind of the second rather than the first war. In the first, I'm not absolutely sure that it's right to blame the German state more than any other (putting aside what I've said about the absurdity/futility of blame in this context anyway), or to consider them beaten- that sort of thinking helped the second into being, eh.

... people will do terrible things if the government tells them to.

Look to america today, americans shoot and bomb untold scores of civilians in iraq and torture prisoners.exactamente.

@Von Witzleben:
Believe what you want, Kollege. The best organised propaganda ever existed couldn't hide that people in Germany disappeared from one day to another. To say that nobody did know anything isn't better than to say that everybody was a fanatic Nazi.
Bzzz...not just dissapearing like that. Relocation was the name of the game here. Officially at least. And they had the propaganda movies, of those relocated, happily plowing their fields to proof it.

It seems that for you, one can only be ashamed and guilty or neither the one thing nor the other.
Well, thats the way it is.
Call me a traitor of the fatherland if you want.
Your words. (And unless your also Kybernetia not mine. But I believe he was a Frankfurter.)
Sure, we can say that this whole thing lies in the past, that we have nothing to do with it and that is the best not to talk about it (like we did until '68). Maybe in 100 years we will have forgot any kind of historic responsibility. Than we can feel free to persecute ethnic minorities again.
I didn't say anything about forgetting. Just about stopping with the self flaggelation. As for the historic responsibility part, thats the line which is always used to trie and excuse policies that cannot be excused otherwise. Our only responsibility is to remember it and don´t let it happen again. Which doesn´t mean we just have to take shit for everything cause it´s our "historic responsibility". Like not beeing allowed to utter criticism at Israel without getting instantly branded as a jew hater. Or having to accept Turkey as an EU member out of "historic responsibility".

Where I am there seems to be peace with the idea of German losses in WW2 because of distinction being made.

Simply put; there were Nazi dead and German dead, two different groups.

The Nazi's were the ones who did the atrocities, who were idealistic fools who killed for the wrong reasons and died for an ignoble cause. They are identified by their service records; kind of "proving them guilty" based on what units they were in.

The German soldiers were commonly thought of as all those people rounded up in the mid-war drafts and recruitments, who shared nothing in common with the idealogy of the Nazis and simply tried to save the lives of their fellow Germans. They are seen as the innocents sacraficed to the meglomania of Hitler and the Nazi party.

In this way we can honor those who died for Germany, and not forget the horrific nature of the Nazi war machine and the idealogy that spawned it.

We had some very interesting conversations about how in germany, according to him, pride in german culture and history is forbidden and taboo.

I wouldn't say that any kind of pride is forbidden. We have the central council of the jews in Germany who are crying all the time that every kind of German pride is to be judged as a sign of Antisemitism but nobody in the society takes them really seriously. (Although some politicians tend to bow before them.)
In fact, because of the unemployment situation and the socalled "Hartz IV" reforms, the atmosphere in Germany isn't very good at the moment. Some parties are even trying to motivate the people by appealing on their national pride.

Bzzz...not just dissapearing like that. Relocation was the name of the game here. Officially at least. And they had the propaganda movies, of those relocated, happily plowing their fields to proof it.
I've seen some of this propaganda movies. I can hardly believe that everybody believed this nonsense. They showed people who were frightened to the bone and in the same moment they talked about the "bloodthirsty and evil" expressions on their faces.

Well, thats the way it is.
That's how you see it. I say that one can feel shame without being guilty or thinking that he is guilty.

didn't say anything about forgetting. Just about stopping with the self flaggelation. As for the historic responsibility part, thats the line which is always used to trie and excuse policies that cannot be excused otherwise. Our only responsibility is to remember it and don´t let it happen again. Which doesn´t mean we just have to take shit for everything cause it´s our "historic responsibility". Like not beeing allowed to utter criticism at Israel without getting instantly branded as a jew hater. Or having to accept Turkey as an EU member out of "historic responsibility".
What shall I say? I totally agree with you in that point. It got on my nerves that the armenian genocide is to be banned from the history lessons in German schools and that Köhler said that the new Antisemitsm in Germany manifest itself in Israel criticism.

in that case every big city is a legitimate bombing target,
Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Kaboul, Bagdad, Falluha, Teheran, NewYork, Washington, Houston, Jacksonville, etc

Yes they are, during a real war, if you intend to disrupt industrial supplies to the frontlines or intend to destroy millitary instalations. Terrorists dont do that, they just want to kill civilians.

Yes they are, during a real war, if you intend to disrupt industrial supplies to the frontlines or intend to destroy millitary instalations. Terrorists dont do that, they just want to kill civilians.

Watch it, someone might just say that 9/11 was an attack on a financial infrastructure, and 3000 dead were just collateral damage..


About the topic.. well, I have family that fought on our colonial war. Pretty stupid, useless conflict. Our fault. But not the fault of the soldiers. They aren't cowards, victory isnt a measure of courage. They were fighting for the wrong causes, but it is the politicians that sent them there, that are to blame, not the footsoldier. And about responsibility.. well, we have, in my opinion, the obligation to make up for the wrongdoings of the past, but that doesnt mean that we will bow down, or feel ashamed, or sacrifice our future because of our errors in the past.