NationStates Jolt Archive

All of you musical geniuses who are fond of saying that come in here and explain it to me.

I am but a simple man who enjoys Rap, and all of this time, I have thought it was music. :confused:

People talking about the same stupid unrealistic stuff to the same beat in an endless loop isn't music.

I think it's music. Just not very good music. Very little talent is used in the actual music-in general it's very simplistic. Rap is more focused on the lyrics and vocals.

People talking about the same stupid unrealistic stuff to the same beat in an endless loop isn't music.
i guess republicans are HORRIBLE at music

Main Entry: mu·sic
Pronunciation: 'myü-zik
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English musik, from Old French musique, from Latin musica, from Greek mousikE any art presided over by the Muses, especially music, from feminine of mousikos of the Muses, from Mousa Muse
1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony
2 a : an agreeable sound : EUPHONY <her voice was music to my ears> b : musical quality <the music of verse>
3 : a musical accompaniment <a play set to music>
4 : the score of a musical composition set down on paper
5 : a distinctive type or category of music <there is a music for everybody -- Eric Salzman>
Much as I hate rap, it seems as though it fits under 1b.

People talking about the same stupid unrealistic stuff to the same beat in an endless loop isn't music.

When is the last time you heard a mainstream rock song that didn't go:

Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Verse
Bridge
Chorus

Music is generally repetitive, it's called a hook, and what does unrealistic stuff have to do with anything?

Whether you like rap or not, it's still music in the same way as nu-metal is music. To actually rap well takes alot of talent, it isn't just talking (well maybe The Streets) as anyone whose been to a Kareoke night can probably testify.

When is the last time you heard a mainstream rock song that didn't go:

Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Verse
Bridge
Chorus

Music is generally repetitive, it's called a hook, and what does unrealistic stuff have to do with anything?

You missed out the crapy guitar solo!!!

To actually rap well takes alot of talent, it isn't just talking (well maybe The Streets) as anyone whose been to a Kareoke night can probably testify.

The Streets aren't so bad. Some of their stuff is awful (Original Pirate Material *spit*) but their latest album is pretty good.

I think it's music. Just not very good music. Very little talent is used in the actual music-in general it's very simplistic. Rap is more focused on the lyrics and vocals.

Do you actually think that it doesn't take much talent to make the flows and word play that the best MC's use? And just because rap producers don't use instruments doesn't mean they can't be talented musicians.

Good at instrument = good musician when good at calculator = good mathematician.

People talking about the same stupid unrealistic stuff to the same beat in an endless loop isn't music.

That's a terrible thing to say about Gregorian chant.

Do you actually think that it doesn't take much talent to make the flows and word play that the best MC's use? And just because rap producers don't use instruments doesn't mean they can't be talented musicians.

Good at instrument = good musician when good at calculator = good mathematician.

When I say music, I generally mean the instruments. What I meant was that the instruments, the backing, the beat, the tune etc is usually simplistic without much talent because rap focuses on lyrical and vocal talent.

That's a terrible thing to say about Gregorian chant.
pwnd

When I say music, I generally mean the instruments. What I meant was that the instruments, the backing, the beat, the tune etc is usually simplistic without much talent because rap focuses on lyrical and vocal talent.
a good dj is as good as a band, see several of Run-DMC's stuff.

pwnd

Ta.

Rap is music by the deffinition of music. You can trace it's origins to both African Drumming and to the iambic foots of the metaphyscial poets (for example, one of Shakespeares sonnets would make a perfect rap).

Just because you don't like it dosn't mean it isn't music.

a good dj is as good as a band, see several of Run-DMC's stuff.

I'm not saying that a band is better than a dj. I'm saying rap's main focus is usually the lyrics and vocals.

And I would hardly use Run-DMC as an example of good....

I'm not saying that a band is better than a dj. I'm saying rap's main focus is usually the lyrics and vocals.

And I would hardly use Run-DMC as an example of good....
oh i would love to see wth you would point out as examples if you dont like run-dmc

oh i would love to see wth you would point out as examples if you dont like run-dmc

Examples of good music?

Based on instrumental skill... bands such as Dream Theater, Symphony X, Opeth, Children of Bodom, Porcupine Tree... Mahivshnu, Ynwgie Malmsteen, Steve Vai, John Williams...

Based on lyrical skill... writers such as Suzanne Vega, Carole King, Opeth...

Based on vocal skill... singers such as Bill Withers, Al Green, Ella Fitzgerald, Stevie Wonder...

Based on melodical skill (the effect of a tune, catchiness, emotional value etc).... writers such as Gary Moore, Eric Clapton, Hendrix...

Based on originality, experimentation... Godspeed you! Black Emporer, Sigur Ros, Explosions in the Sky...

Based on various others things... industrial bands, techno bands, neo-classical bands....

Run-DMC may have talents. Talents at becoming popular, of writing and playing popular songs etc But the skill they use to play their instruments, which was the skill I was talking about, seems fairly limited.

Examples of good music?

Based on instrumental skill... bands such as Dream Theater, Symphony X, Opeth, Children of Bodom, Porcupine Tree... Mahivshnu, Ynwgie Malmsteen, Steve Vai, John Williams...

Based on lyrical skill... writers such as Suzanne Vega, Carole King, Opeth...

Based on vocal skill... singers such as Bill Withers, Al Green, Ella Fitzgerald, Stevie Wonder...

Based on melodical skill (the effect of a tune, catchiness, emotional value etc).... writers such as Gary Moore, Eric Clapton, Hendrix...

Based on originality, experimentation... Godspeed you! Black Emporer, Sigur Ros, Explosions in the Sky...

Based on various others things... industrial bands, techno bands, neo-classical bands....

Run-DMC may have talents. Talents at becoming popular, of writing and playing popular songs etc But the skill they use to play their instruments, which was the skill I was talking about, seems fairly limited.
i meant rapper you dimwit.

and run and dmc were the vocalists, it was jay who ran the turn tables and he was good at it.

i meant rapper you dimwit.

and run and dmc were the vocalists, it was jay who ran the turn tables and he was good at it.

Unfortunately the art of turntablism has left most mainstream hip-pop. A shame, really.

Unfortunately the art of turntablism has left most mainstream hip-pop. A shame, really.
too right, some one who could use the turntables was badass. jurassic 5 does a bit of turntable stuff but not much

Unfortunately the art of turntablism has left most mainstream hip-pop. A shame, really.

It continues to proliferate in the margins and the underground, though which is where the interesting stuff has always been happening. Consider the brief rise and fall of turn-tablism in mainstream music as just another passing fad to titliate the masses with its novelty.

i meant rapper you dimwit.

and run and dmc were the vocalists, it was jay who ran the turn tables and he was good at it.

No need to call me a dimwit. You didn't specify. I said I wouldn't call Run-DMC good. You said to give examples of what I would call good.

I don't know any examples of good rappers. I don't like any rap that I have heard. Still keep an open mind to maybe finding some one day though.

I don't like any rap that I have heard. Still keep an open mind to maybe finding some one day though.

In that case I have ten words for you: It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back.

Originally Posted by Merriam-Webster's
Main Entry: mu·sic
Pronunciation: 'myü-zik
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English musik, from Old French musique, from Latin musica, from Greek mousikE any art presided over by the Muses, especially music, from feminine of mousikos of the Muses, from Mousa Muse
1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony
2 a : an agreeable sound : EUPHONY <her voice was music to my ears> b : musical quality <the music of verse>
3 : a musical accompaniment <a play set to music>
4 : the score of a musical composition set down on paper
5 : a distinctive type or category of music <there is a music for everybody -- Eric Salzman>Much as I hate rap, it seems as though it fits under 1b.

Although it would seem to contradict severely part 2a of the definition!

Although it would seem to contradict severely part 2a of the definition!

De gustibus non est disputandum.

That's a terrible thing to say about Gregorian chant.
Damn right! Given as I was just listening to "Chant Gregorien - Repons en Monodies Gallicanes" by The Deller Consort, I must give this a hearty amen.

Although it would seem to contradict severely part 2a of the definition!
Something doesn't have to fit all parts of the definition. Those are separate sections.

I'm not saying that a band is better than a dj. I'm saying rap's main focus is usually the lyrics and vocals.

And I would hardly use Run-DMC as an example of good....

How about a rap group that was a full band: guitar, bass, drums, keyboard, human beatbox, and MC, such as The Roots?

De gustibus non est disputandum.

Have you ever considered a career as a rapper who performs in Latin?

In that case I have ten words for you: It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back.
if he doesnt like run-dmc he wont like any rap


and glitz, i assumed we were talknig about rap, you know gonig by the threads topic

I don't think it's music anymore than recited poetry of other types would be concidered music...this just happens to be poetry recited to a background of music. Doesn't mean it doesn't take talent to do it, although I think there are a lot of artists who are pretty bad.

Although it would seem to contradict severely part 2a of the definition!
wrong, that is up to a matter of taste. you cant go around disqualifying music by that definition, especially since it doesnt pertain to music as a literal


euphony - Agreeable sound, especially in the phonetic quality of words.

you've got one person saying something mostly incoherent about drugs, sex, you know, whatever, to an annoying beat, and you call it music? maybe it could be a bit of poetry, or an art of some sort, but not music. it takes talent to be able to write a good song with a message and be able to put it to good music, not just repetative words to a repetative beat

Have you ever considered a career as a rapper who performs in Latin?

If these guys can do what they do and get away with it, then rap in latin could just work...

http://www.sabbatum.com/

Rap Music is music it is just doen differantly.. and it isnt all done in a long loop. it depends on the song. the song has meaning the reaosn its rap isnt because it all rymes or some black guy sings it.. its because rap music is easier to express the pain in your voice and words while your singing it. and also it isnt all about the guitar playing its 3 minute solo its all about the beat. and the feeling the artist puts with it.... prime example... listen to Eminem "Mockingbird" or even better listen to "toy soldier" if you listen to the words tyou find the reason for the anger and all.. but i tell you now.. its very artistic

I'm a classical musician and I think rap sucks. HOWEVER, music is a means of communicating emotions, not some theoretical notion, and if rap does for you what Bach does for me, its music. Enjoy it, and don't worry about what anybody else thinks :fluffle:

you've got one person saying something mostly incoherent about drugs, sex, you know, whatever, to an annoying beat, and you call it music? maybe it could be a bit of poetry, or an art of some sort, but not music. it takes talent to be able to write a good song with a message and be able to put it to good music, not just repetative words to a repetative beat

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8130824&postcount=11

you've got one person saying something mostly incoherent about drugs, sex, you know, whatever, to an annoying beat, and you call it music? maybe it could be a bit of poetry, or an art of some sort, but not music. it takes talent to be able to write a good song with a message and be able to put it to good music, not just repetative words to a repetative beat
i call THAT an uninformed intolerance

please look up these songs
Jurassic 5 - What's Golden
Jurassic 5 - Quality Control
Run-DMC - Tricky

All of you musical geniuses who are fond of saying that come in here and explain it to me.

I am but a simple man who enjoys Rap, and all of this time, I have thought it was music. :confused:

I primarily listen to "rap" - more underground hip hop. I'd have to agree with those who are ignorant that the shit on the radio sucks. Sure it's music, I suppose. But I am also a simple man - I like basic things, and hip hop to me is a version of folk in many ways - it tells stories, creates a visual.

Examples of hip hop that fits the "quality" spectrum:

Living Legends (Grouch, Eligh, Scarub, Murs, etc)
Haiku D'Etat (Aceyalone, Mikah 9, Abstract Rude)
Del
Sage Francis
Jurassic 5
Jedi Mind Tricks (7L, Esoteric)

Just my 2cents. These people generally talk about life, living life, loving life, searching for a deity or what they have found in a deity, freemasons, the government, etc. Not booty and guns. That's crap rap

Rap is crap.

Rap is crap.

Care to elucidate?

Anyone know who Fettes Brot is? They have everything, from rap to even a reggae song, and excellent instrumentals. It helps if you speak German though :)

I primarily listen to "rap" - more underground hip hop. I'd have to agree with those who are ignorant that the shit on the radio sucks. Sure it's music, I suppose. But I am also a simple man - I like basic things, and hip hop to me is a version of folk in many ways - it tells stories, creates a visual.

Examples of hip hop that fits the "quality" spectrum:

Living Legends (Grouch, Eligh, Scarub, Murs, etc)
Haiku D'Etat (Aceyalone, Mikah 9, Abstract Rude)
Del
Sage Francis
Jurassic 5
Jedi Mind Tricks (7L, Esoteric)

Just my 2cents. These people generally talk about life, living life, loving life, searching for a deity or what they have found in a deity, freemasons, the government, etc. Not booty and guns. That's crap rap
have you heard optimus rhyme or frontalittle? i need to check out JMT



Rap is crap.
she sells sea shells by the sea shore
stuff that rhymes is great no?

I'm a classical musician and I think rap sucks. HOWEVER, music is a means of communicating emotions, not some theoretical notion, and if rap does for you what Bach does for me, its music. Enjoy it, and don't worry about what anybody else thinks :fluffle:
^^Prety much what I was going to say.

And yay, another manc! :fluffle:

How about a rap group that was a full band: guitar, bass, drums, keyboard, human beatbox, and MC, such as The Roots?

It really depends on whether the band are any good. Having a band doesn't necessarily make something good or talented. I haven't heard much rap with full bands though so I'll check it out and see what I think.

i call THAT an uninformed intolerance

please look up these songs
Jurassic 5 - What's Golden
Jurassic 5 - Quality Control
Run-DMC - Tricky

If he truly wants high musical quality and non-linear song structure, I would recommend Madvillian.

If he truly wants high musical quality and non-linear song structure, I would recommend Madvillian.
havnt heard of them

How about a rap group that was a full band: guitar, bass, drums, keyboard, human beatbox, and MC, such as The Roots?

I've seen The Roots live, and they're one of the best live acts I've ever seen. Very very talented.

^^Prety much what I was going to say.

And yay, another manc! :fluffle:
Soon we can start the revolution :D

wrong, that is up to a matter of taste. you cant go around disqualifying music by that definition, especially since it doesnt pertain to music as a literal

and

Something doesn't have to fit all parts of the definition. Those are separate sections.

It was a little joke, a casual, back-hand snipe at rap. It was not intended as a masterpiece of logical reasoning!! Awaken your sense of humour, and do not take everything literally!

if he doesnt like run-dmc he wont like any rap


and glitz, i assumed we were talknig about rap, you know gonig by the threads topic

I would prefer it if you didn't make me appear as close-minded when I'm not. I wouldn't judge a whole genre of music, in all its forms and varietes of talent, on one band or on the mainstream style of that music.

If someone reccomends a band, I will listen to them. By all means, people, prove me wrong about rap being bad.

Ok. And I assumed we were talking about music in general.

BTW I'm a girl.

As much as I hate rap, its probably the only current music that doesn't require someone to use a computer to make your voice sound better...

I would prefer it if you didn't make me appear as close-minded when I'm not. I wouldn't judge a whole genre of music, in all its forms and varietes of talent, on one band or on the mainstream style of that music.

If someone reccomends a band, I will listen to them. By all means, people, prove me wrong about rap being bad.

Ok. And I assumed we were talking about music in general.

BTW I'm a girl.
either way i was making the ponit that if people hate rap they usually like run dmc still

If someone reccomends a band, I will listen to them. By all means, people, prove me wrong about rap being bad.


I strongly recommend taking a listen to Public Enemy - a rap band almost universally loved by rockers the world over.

either way i was making the ponit that if people hate rap they usually like run dmc still

I know plenty of people who don't like good rock yet like crappy 'rock'. It could be that in this case, the band reccomended were good whereas Run-DMC arent but are just popular. It's more likely that people will enjoy the less skillful music. Popular music tends to be less skillful because it makes it easier to listen to. I like music which is skillfull and generally harder to listen to-my musical taste consists of underground bands.

I'm glad someone used my idea of quoting the dictionary. It's music, now, whether you like it or not, that's your choice to make. Yet, fact remains, it's music!

I strongly recommend taking a listen to Public Enemy - a rap band almost universally loved by rockers the world over.

Ok, so Public Enemy, The Roots and Madvillian? Any more reccomendations?

I know plenty of people who don't like good rock yet like crappy 'rock'. It could be that in this case, the band reccomended were good whereas Run-DMC arent but are just popular. It's more likely that people will enjoy the less skillful music. Popular music tends to be less skillful because it makes it easier to listen to. I like music which is skillfull and generally harder to listen to-my musical taste consists of underground bands.
you still seem to strike me as a person who has listened to any Run-DMC

^^Prety much what I was going to say.

And yay, another manc! :fluffle:

Lets hear it for Mancs!!

*Raises Boddies in tribute to fellows*

you still seem to strike me as a person who has listened to any Run-DMC

Do you mean hasn't listen to any Run-DMC?

Well, seeing as they are three of my friends favourite band I've been subjected a fair bit of them. But whether you choose to believe me... I really am not that bothered. Why would I lie anyway? It would make this whole discussion fairly pointless, even more pointless than it already is.

have you heard optimus rhyme or frontalittle? i need to check out JMT


I might do that - I've heard MC Frontalot, lol, nerdcore!

I'm not sure that the issue is that rap as a medium is lousy, so much as that there's an overabundance of mediocre performers thereof. The subject matter (nihilistic, violent, posturing) is often a turn-off as well.

To Glitz: Mos Def is an artist who often appeals to those who don't, for the most part, like rap (Such as myself :) ).

I might do that - I've heard MC Frontalot, lol, nerdcore!
frontalot is good but frontalittle does alot more stuff and its usually pretty damn funny, but check out optimus rhyme

Eh, I'd say rap is music. Most of it isn't to my taste, but that's irrelvant. I Wub Cypress Hill though!

And if anyone likes the streets, check out the Hilltop Hoods. W00t for dodgy Aussie rappers, from Western Sydney I think. (I'm allowed to make fun of westies, cos I'm one. :p )

Damn. A first-poster just called everyone in this thread who dislike rap music fucking racists. Seems pretty strong language to use for a first post!

interestingly, I've been sitting reading these quite disturbing posts by racists who believe all rap is terrible
thread here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=395530&page=2&pp=15)

What. An. Asshole.

Damn. A first-poster just called everyone in this thread who dislike rap music fucking racists. Seems pretty strong language to use for a first post!


thread here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=395530&page=2&pp=15)

What. An. Asshole.

In an ironic way, he's racist, because he's assuming that rap is 'black music'.

In an ironic way, he's racist, because he's assuming that rap is 'black music'.
That's true. Also, assuming that musical taste has anything to do with racism is pretensious. I can't stand flamenco or polka, but that doesn't mean I'm a xenophobe.

the thing is, most people are stupid and untalented. this isn't somehow unique to rap music. if it sucks, then it sucks, the style doesn't really matter.

and if we're talking about mainstream, commercial rap, then yeah 9 times outa 10 it is not very good. it's music, it just doesn't have any value or intelligence. a lot of people that are looking at it from the outside tend to generalize and say that it's all trash

but there isn't a single "genre" of music that will automatically make a person using it smarter or better. the popular rap music out now comes from people that are not only stupid to begin with, but uneducated and young. so i can see where these critics come from, and i agree with them that the music is terrible

however..

dr dre and snoop dogg, the chronic... it's a classic, it's great music

tupac made some great music. so did rakim, nas, KRS-1, and many others

today, if you can see past the money and marketting, there is A LOT of significance in hip hop, particularly indie hip hop. artists and groups such as sole, atmosphere, dose one, alias, odd nosdam, buck 65, aesop rock, qwel

some extremely talented artists are out there, and i personally think good hip hop is some of the best music available because it's driven by intelligence and thoughtful lyrics, over beats that amplify the mood and improve the song

whether it's got a message, or is an expressing an attitude, it's interesting stuff

but like i said, if the person sucks the music they make will suck. regardless of the kind of music

nice little thread, thanks for makin it. and take care!

~mr popular