NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm an occultist. I study the very foundations of reality itself. I know there are christians and there are idiotic people that actually believe that God is vain enough to love a child-molester who believes in him but not an atheist that does social work. These second idiots call themselves christians as well, so I'll add quotation marks to their names for the sake of identification. So... Come get me, "christians". I DARE your petty, vain, idiotic evil excuse for a god to come and get me. I do not believe a god vain enough to allow a child molester into heaven just because said molester believes him, and I will not ever. The truly Christian God would be terribly disappointed to know what you "christians" have been saying in his name, so, again, I dare you to send your "God-that-hates-everyone-that's-not-Christian" after me. Come get me, punks.

Flamebait! However, I would just like to add that, instead of doing this here, wouldn't it be really fun to do it in the middle of mass or something?

A child molester may have done some terrible things, but that does not excuse God not loving them. Loves sinner, hate sin. If the two were inseperable we would all be dead as the wages of sin are death. They are now seprable thanks to Jesus's death. And I am unsure where you get the idea that God hate's everyone who isnt Christian from. If you think he sends us to hell then thats a mistake. We go to hell if we are not saved. He does not send us there. To put it another way, if when climing on a wall we will fall off unless we hold the wall. God is not pushing off those who do not believe in him. He is saving those who do. Hell was not created for Humans, but for the Devil to be punished

Flamebait! However, I would just like to add that, instead of doing this here, wouldn't it be really fun to do it in the middle of mass or something?

Take it a step further, yell it at the Pope.

Flamebait! However, I would just like to add that, instead of doing this here, wouldn't it be really fun to do it in the middle of mass or something?

In Britain at least (Dont know about USA) there is a law protecting the disruption of places of worship.

OUCH

i rolled my eyes so hard i sprained something!

I'm an occultist. I study the very foundations of reality itself. I know there are christians and there are idiotic people that actually believe that God is vain enough to love a child-molester who believes in him but not an atheist that does social work. These second idiots call themselves christians as well, so I'll add quotation marks to their names for the sake of identification. So... Come get me, "christians". I DARE your petty, vain, idiotic evil excuse for a god to come and get me. I do not believe a god vain enough to allow a child molester into heaven just because said molester believes him, and I will not ever. The truly Christian God would be terribly disappointed to know what you "christians" have been saying in his name, so, again, I dare you to send your "God-that-hates-everyone-that's-not-Christian" after me. Come get me, punks.

http://www.picdump.org/albums/dragmire/Troll_XING.jpg

Take it a step further, yell it at the Pope.
The current Pope is too good to get angry at this or anything. From what I've read, he is an incredibly tolerant man when it comes to things like this. However, he also happens to be hospitalised at the moment, so that would also make it a little difficult.

OUCH

i rolled my eyes so hard i sprained something!
Ow, that was my foot!
You sprained my foot!
...
By rolling your eyes!

I think...

The current Pope is too good to get angry at this or anything. From what I've read, he is an incredibly tolerant man when it comes to things like this. However, he also happens to be hospitalised at the moment, so that would also make it a little difficult.

I was kidding.

A child molester may have done some terrible things, but that does not excuse God not loving them. Loves sinner, hate sin. If the two were inseperable we would all be dead as the wages of sin are death. They are now seprable thanks to Jesus's death. And I am unsure where you get the idea that God hate's everyone who isnt Christian from. If you think he sends us to hell then thats a mistake. We go to hell if we are not saved. He does not send us there. To put it another way, if when climing on a wall we will fall off unless we hold the wall. God is not pushing off those who do not believe in him. He is saving those who do. Hell was not created for Humans, but for the Devil to be punished

And you call that fair because...?
Do you really think it's fair for a child-molester that believes in God to go to heaven while a nice atheist doesn't? And I do not have the idea that God hates everyone non-christian, I DO have the idea that there are some idiots that think that and call themselves "christians".

I was kidding.
I know.

I know.

Sorry, I just got the impression that you were taking it seriously.

And you call that fair because...?
Do you really think it's fair for a child-molester that believes in God to go to heaven while a nice atheist doesn't? And I do not have the idea that God hates everyone non-christian, I DO have the idea that there are some idiots that think that and call themselves "christians".

Justification is a very contentious issue for many. One thing the Bible makes clear is you cannot "work" your way into heaven. You are not justfied by the fact that you have done X many good things in your life. That does not cut the mustard. If that were the case then there would have to be all kinds of rules and regulations about what does and does not constitute a good act, and how "good" good acts are reletive to one another. If you could be justified purely by works then there would have been no need for Jesus's death.

a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ

If that were the case then there would have to be all kinds of rules and regulations about what does and does not constitute a good act, and how "good" good acts are reletive to one another. If you could be justified purely by works then there would have been no need for Jesus's death.
If that's true, then I would not want to go to that God's heaven. Isn't it possible to take the less evangelical approach, and say that it should be inehrent or some such thing what is right or wrong, so the Bible doesn't have to say?

Offensive to Christians! Offensive to Christians! Lock it! Edit it! Change, change, change!

Justification is a very contentious issue for many. One thing the Bible makes clear is you cannot "work" your way into heaven. You are not justfied by the fact that you have done X many good things in your life. That does not cut the mustard. If that were the case then there would have to be all kinds of rules and regulations about what does and does not constitute a good act, and how "good" good acts are reletive to one another. If you could be justified purely by works then there would have been no need for Jesus's death.

Okay, so you just admitted it's NOT FAIR. Yet you worship. Very well, you just proved that you don't want a God, you want someone to suck up to. Also, the Bible is not useful in an argument, because then I can read the Quran and use it to say whatever it is that I wish it to. Or a Shinto book, or, put simply, whatever it is that I need to use as "Sacred Book".

Offensive to Christians! Offensive to Christians!
My friends, I believe we have a winner!

My friends, I believe we have a winner!

Do I get a Darwin fish

Take it a step further, yell it at the Pope.
Catholics have "purgatory"- They don't believe that virtuous non-Christians go to hell. He'd smack it down thoroughly.

Do I get a Darwin fish
No, but you do get a Jesus fish (http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/free/Pics/Ichthys.gif)!

I'm an occultist. I study the very foundations of reality itself. I know there are christians and there are idiotic people that actually believe that God is vain enough to love a child-molester who believes in him but not an atheist that does social work. These second idiots call themselves christians as well, so I'll add quotation marks to their names for the sake of identification. So... Come get me, "christians". I DARE your petty, vain, idiotic evil excuse for a god to come and get me. I do not believe a god vain enough to allow a child molester into heaven just because said molester believes him, and I will not ever. The truly Christian God would be terribly disappointed to know what you "christians" have been saying in his name, so, again, I dare you to send your "God-that-hates-everyone-that's-not-Christian" after me. Come get me, punks.
Love is to Hatred
As
Liking is to Disliking
God Loves all but does not like all
There is a difference.
As Neo Cannen said: Hates sin, Loves sinner

Do I get a Darwin fish

Better (http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-Procreate.gif)

If that's true, then I would not want to go to that God's heaven. Isn't it possible to take the less evangelical approach, and say that it should be inehrent or some such thing what is right or wrong, so the Bible doesn't have to say?

To a certian level people can see what is and is not inherintly good. What is difficult is when they do/do not practice it. Also there is a problem with motive. Doing good for good's sake I have no problem with, and I suspect God has no problem with it. What is a problem is when you do good things and recieve/attempt to recieve glory for it. I am not saying it has to be in the Bible for it to be good. The bible is not a book saying "this is good, this is bad, this good is better than that good etc". It is far more simple than that. Justification into heaven is NOT based on works. If we could work our way into hevaven then there would have been no need for Jesus.

Better (http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-Procreate.gif)

I'll take that.

Better (http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/E-Procreate.gif)
Ok, what in the hell was that?!?

Okay, so you just admitted it's NOT FAIR. Yet you worship. Very well, you just proved that you don't want a God, you want someone to suck up to. Also, the Bible is not useful in an argument, because then I can read the Quran and use it to say whatever it is that I wish it to. Or a Shinto book, or, put simply, whatever it is that I need to use as "Sacred Book".
That is correct. you really cannot use the bible in debate unless you are debating other Christians. Same goes to all religious. holy books

Okay, so you just admitted it's NOT FAIR. Yet you worship. Very well, you just proved that you don't want a God, you want someone to suck up to.

*Ahem* No. Let me put it to you this way, if it was based on numbers of good deads and charity effort etc, then you have the problem of someone who has done just barely enough getting into heaven and someone who has only just not done enough getting into hell. It may not be fair by your standards, but you are not God.

To a certian level people can see what is and is not inherintly good. What is difficult is when they do/do not practice it. Also there is a problem with motive. Doing good for good's sake I have no problem with, and I suspect God has no problem with it. What is a problem is when you do good things and recieve/attempt to recieve glory for it. I am not saying it has to be in the Bible for it to be good. The bible is not a book saying "this is good, this is bad, this good is better than that good etc". It is far more simple than that. Justification into heaven is NOT based on works. If we could work our way into hevaven then there would have been no need for Jesus.

So, as you said twice, you believe that God doesn't care for good, but to being sucked up to. You just called your God a vain, evil idiot.

That is correct. you really cannot use the bible in debate unless you are debating other Christians. Same goes to all religious. holy books

Thats not true. You can use the Bible to explain the Christian position on something.

So, as you said twice, you believe that God doesn't care for good, but to being sucked up to. You just called your God a vain, evil idiot.

Of course God cares about Good, but it is not Good/Bad that gets us into heaven. Its faith. I am discussing justification here, not God's opinion of us.

Catholics have "purgatory"- They don't believe that virtuous non-Christians go to hell. He'd smack it down thoroughly.

Precisely why I'd not discuss this with catholics. Because THEIR religion is actually about caring, love, etc, and not sucking up to a vain God.

You just called your God a vain, evil idiot.
Now, now. Don't be too harsh here. He would just be a vain egomaniac.

Of course God cares about Good, but it is not Good/Bad that gets us into heaven. Its faith. I am discussing justification here, not God's opinion of us.

Then you're denying his omnipotence. That or you're stating that it's even VAGUELY acceptable that Ghandi went to Hell and an evangelic murderer didn't.

Precisely why I'd not discuss this with catholics. Because THEIR religion is actually about caring, love, etc, and not sucking up to a vain God.

I am unsure where exactly you are getting this "Sucking up to God" idea from as worship is not what justification is based on either

Thats not true. You can use the Bible to explain the Christian position on something.
You can explain but they just never accept it

Ow, that was my foot!
You sprained my foot!
...
By rolling your eyes!

I think...
ohmy im sorry
ill try to control myself better in the future

You can explain but they just never accept it

If I say that, by the Quran, you'll not go to Heaven unless you worship Allah, will you accept it? No? Then can it.

Then you're denying his omnipotence. That or you're stating that it's even VAGUELY acceptable that Ghandi went to Hell and an evangelic murderer didn't.

I think this may help you understand things a little better

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qrashi.html

Me:
http://members.aol.com/christntz/freak-s.jpg (http://http://members.aol.com/christntz/freak-s.jpg)

I am unsure where exactly you are getting this "Sucking up to God" idea from as worship is not what justification is based on either

What then? Belief? Is your god actually daring to send to Hell two thirds of the world's population because they don't believe him? Wow.

If I say that, by the Quran, you'll not go to Heaven unless you worship Allah, will you accept it? No? Then can it.

I could say though "It is the Christian belief that.....and that is supported by CC:VV in book YYYYYYY". I can support the Christian logic. I cant use the Bible to prove it true obviously, thats what faith is for (Belief that something is true despite an inablity to prove it for certianty) but I can use it to support Christian logic.

If I say that, by the Quran, you'll not go to Heaven unless you worship Allah, will you accept it? No? Then can it.
But since we know the truth it does not matter what the Qu'ran says

What then? Belief? Is your god actually daring to send to Hell two thirds of the world's population because they don't believe him? Wow.

It is FAITH. Honest, true, actual faith. The belief that you could never do anything to save yourself but Jesus has saved you via the cross. Its also being "Big" enough to admit to God that you are in the wrong. That you have sinned and that only he can deal with the sin.

Justification is a very contentious issue for many. One thing the Bible makes clear is you cannot "work" your way into heaven. You are not justfied by the fact that you have done X many good things in your life. That does not cut the mustard. If that were the case then there would have to be all kinds of rules and regulations about what does and does not constitute a good act, and how "good" good acts are reletive to one another. If you could be justified purely by works then there would have been no need for Jesus's death.
of course you cant be saved by only good works but you DO have to behave (or not behave) in certain ways if you are going to get to heaven.
"not everyone who cries lord lord... etc" (i dont know the rest but you do)

isnt there a bit where jesus says that anyone who hurts a child is better off never having been born?

you can be a child molester, be saved, repent and no longer hurt children and get into heaven

if you accept jesus christ as your personal lord and savior then go merrily about your business molesting children, you arent gonna go to heaven.

But since we know the truth it does not matter what the Qu'ran says

But since we know the truth it does not matter what the Bible says

But since we know the truth it does not matter what the Bible says

Et cetera.

Next attempt.

of course you cant be saved by only good works but you DO have to behave (or not behave) in certain ways if you are going to get to heaven.
"not everyone who cries lord lord... etc" (i dont know the rest but you do)

isnt there a bit where jesus says that anyone who hurts a child is better off never having been born?

you can be a child molester, be saved, repent and no longer hurt children and get into heaven

if you accept jesus christ as your personal lord and savior then go merrily about your business molesting children, you arent gonna go to heaven.

I agree with you on this point (Am not sure about Jesus saying anything about hurting Children though). Faith is not simpley a logical belief inside ones own mind. If you believe that Jesus was the son of God, and that he was God (Trinity complex, difficult to comprehend but anyway) then logicaly you believe everything he said to be the word of God. Hence you should do it. If you are intentionaly going about ignoring God, then obviously your faith is very weak/non existance. If you love Jesus, you should be serious about following him. That said, there is nothing you can "do" to end your chance at salvation. Salvation is a promise from God to his people. The Bible does not say "if you repent but do X, Y and Z then you will not be justified".

It is FAITH. Honest, true, actual faith. The belief that you could never do anything to save yourself but Jesus has saved you via the cross. Its also being "Big" enough to admit to God that you are in the wrong. That you have sinned and that only he can deal with the sin.

The same could be said about Allah, about Amaterasu, about anyone. By the way, if, and only if, you believe ME, you shall be saved. There, I just founded a new religion. C'mon, guys, let's go golfing.

I agree with you on this point (Am not sure about Jesus saying anything about hurting Children though). Faith is not simpley a logical belief inside ones own mind. If you believe that Jesus was the son of God, and that he was God (Trinity complex, difficult to comprehend but anyway) then logicaly you believe everything he said to be the word of God. Hence you should do it. If you are intentionaly going about ignoring God, then obviously your faith is very weak/non existance. If you love Jesus, you should be serious about following him. That said, there is nothing you can "do" to end your chance at salvation. Salvation is a promise from God to his people. The Bible does not say "if you repent but do X, Y and Z then you will not be justified".

So, you're saying that God puts in the world this sh*tload of people that never got to HEAR of him and sends them to Hell because they have no faith? Once again you're insulting your god. This time by calling him nothing short of a psychopath.

Et cetera.

Next attempt.
so you dont accept the validity of religious text in the proving of religious points?

none of it is TRUE, not even "occultism". all you can do is argue within the theology set up by any particular religion using their religious texts. yes the hindus will come up with a different answer than the christians. so what?

The same could be said about Allah, about Amaterasu, about anyone. By the way, if, and only if, you believe ME, you shall be saved. There, I just founded a new religion. C'mon, guys, let's go golfing.

I'm sorry, I thought you were discussing the validty of Christianty to itself. I would appriciate you not moving the goal posts. First you were angry that the justification system is not fair. I have explained how that works .Now you want a way of securing Christianity above other religions. Please tell me exactly what it is you want to know?

And you call that fair because...?
Do you really think it's fair for a child-molester that believes in God to go to heaven while a nice atheist doesn't? And I do not have the idea that God hates everyone non-christian, I DO have the idea that there are some idiots that think that and call themselves "christians".

First of all a child molester who "believes in god" isnt really doing what God wants him to do. God still loves him like he loves all people but that doesnt mean he is going to heaven. If this child molester really believed in the God of the Bible then he would cease to be a child molester and ask for forgiveness.

Second, why should an atheist go to heaven? Why should he be allowed to go to a place that he beleives doesnt exist?

So, you're saying that God puts in the world this sh*tload of people that never got to HEAR of him and sends them to Hell because they have no faith? Once again you're insulting your god. This time by calling him nothing short of a psychopath.

That's what the great commision was for. To make sure eveyone heard the word.

First of all a child molester who "believes in god" isnt really doing what God wants him to do. God still loves him like he loves all people but that doesnt mean he is going to heaven. If this child molester really believed in the God of the Bible then he would cease to be a child molester and ask for forgiveness.

Second, why should an atheist go to heaven? Why should he be allowed to go to a place that he beleives doesnt exist?

Because the Christian theology portraits God as a nice guy, and you seem to be intent on stating that he's shallow enough to save "only those that believe in him".

Because the Christian theology portraits God as a nice guy, and you seem to be intent on stating that he's shallow enough to save "only those that believe in him".

If you refuse to believe that a phone company exists, does that mean that they should stop sending you bills?

I'm sorry, I thought you were discussing the validty of Christianty to itself. I would appriciate you not moving the goal posts. First you were angry that the justification system is not fair. I have explained how that works .Now you want a way of securing Christianity above other religions. Please tell me exactly what it is you want to know?

What justification system would screw people over like this and be fair? Do you realize that your belief system includes LOTS of innocents going to burn in Hell?

So, you're saying that God puts in the world this sh*tload of people that never got to HEAR of him and sends them to Hell because they have no faith? Once again you're insulting your god. This time by calling him nothing short of a psychopath.


No, according to the bible, all men have the "Law written on their hearts". THat means they have the same truth written in their hearts. Also, many cultures have similar stories and messianic messages to christianity. Gilgamesh, Queztacotl for example. Those stories are warped, true, but if you beleive that all men descended from noah, likethe bible says, then you can say at one time that they used to know the truth and they distorted or fell away or whatever else you want to call it. It is not Gods fault that they did that. It is their own.

If you refuse to believe that a phone company exists, does that mean that they should stop sending you bills?

They should and they WILL if I have no phone or use other company.

No, according to the bible, all men have the "Law written on their hearts". THat means they have the same truth written in their hearts. Also, many cultures have similar stories and messianic messages to christianity. Gilgamesh, Queztacotl for example. Those stories are warped, true, but if you beleive that all men descended from noah, likethe bible says, then you can say at one time that they used to know the truth and they distorted or fell away or whatever else you want to call it. It is not Gods fault that they did that. It is their own.

So it's the fault of the person that, GENERATIONS later, was born in that culture? Bad, bad God! Go sit in the corner!

They should and they WILL if I have no phone or use other company.

Ok, let me re work this. Say you have a phone, you use it to make calls. Your phone line is BT. But you refuse to believe that BT exists. You believe phones are a free service and that you should not have to pay for them. Does that mean that BT no longer should send you bills and make you pay?

What justification system would screw people over like this and be fair? Do you realize that your belief system includes LOTS of innocents going to burn in Hell?

What innoncents?

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

The only way to deal with sin, is via Jesus. Thats what his death was for

What innoncents?
What about miscarriages in the third trimester?

I agree with you on this point (Am not sure about Jesus saying anything about hurting Children though). Faith is not simpley a logical belief inside ones own mind. If you believe that Jesus was the son of God, and that he was God (Trinity complex, difficult to comprehend but anyway) then logicaly you believe everything he said to be the word of God. Hence you should do it. If you are intentionaly going about ignoring God, then obviously your faith is very weak/non existance. If you love Jesus, you should be serious about following him. That said, there is nothing you can "do" to end your chance at salvation. Salvation is a promise from God to his people. The Bible does not say "if you repent but do X, Y and Z then you will not be justified".
yeah it does
the child one i was thinking of comes from matthew 18 which starts

At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them, 3 and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes! 8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. 10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven
it goes on from there to warn you how you must behave if you are going to get into heaven. if you dont forgive those whoare in debted to you wont get in. as in

Then his lord summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; 33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' 34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

at least thats what it means to ME when i read it.

Because the Christian theology portraits God as a nice guy, and you seem to be intent on stating that he's shallow enough to save "only those that believe in him".

Why should God reward you for not beleiving in him? I hever said he was nice. He is just, and true and good, and love. But not "nice". Being just means that God must follow the law as much as we do. He sent his son as fullfillment of the law. Thats why we only have to beleive in Him to go to heaven. You, who refuse to do even that have no right to demand to go to heaven since you are willfully breaking God's command. It doesnt really seem "fair" to allow you, who does not believe in the God of the Bible as far as i can tell, to go to heaven, when all those Christians over 2000 years have died and suffered much of the time for their faith get not oter reward?

(I am not exempting the Catholic church or many other churches from the persecution that has gone on over history. However i do not beleive the men that comminted those atrocities were really christian, be cause if they were, they would have converted, not killed those who disagreed with them)

Ok, let me re work this. Say you have a phone, you use it to make calls. Your phone line is BT. But you refuse to believe that BT exists. You believe phones are a free service and that you should not have to pay for them. Does that mean that BT no longer should send you bills and make you pay?

In that case I'd SEE the BT people installing my phone. But, if I saw a phone appear out of nowhere or it was installed while I slept, I'd have every right to believe that phones are a free service, or to believe that BT doesn't exist, but ET does, or ST does or TC does, etc. unless BT left me EVIDENCE near the phone saying "this phone was installed by BT, please pay X for it." - in which case it'd be a crime, because offering a service unrequested and charging for it IS a crime.

Justification is a very contentious issue for many. One thing the Bible makes clear is you cannot "work" your way into heaven. You are not justfied by the fact that you have done X many good things in your life. That does not cut the mustard. If that were the case then there would have to be all kinds of rules and regulations about what does and does not constitute a good act, and how "good" good acts are reletive to one another. If you could be justified purely by works then there would have been no need for Jesus's death.
This being why I'm not a faithful Christian sheep.

What about miscarriages in the third trimester?

I am unsure about that one. I dont have any biblical basis but Christian logic would sugest that they are saved. But do not quote me on that.

This being why I'm not a faithful Christian sheep.

What exactly do you mean?

What innoncents?

The BILLIONS of people that were born in cultures that had no mention of the Christian God.

What about miscarriages in the third trimester?

Good question. I do not know. That is up to God to decide. But remember all are born sinful. We do not start out good, then become corrupt, then get saved. only Adam and eve did that, and since then we have been cursed. It sucks but it is true

This being why I'm not a faithful Christian sheep.

I second that.

In that case I'd SEE the BT people installing my phone. But, if I saw a phone appear out of nowhere or it was installed while I slept, I'd have every right to believe that phones are a free service, or to believe that BT doesn't exist, but ET does, or ST does or TC does, etc. unless BT left me EVIDENCE near the phone saying "this phone was installed by BT, please pay X for it." - in which case it'd be a crime, because offering a service unrequested and charging for it IS a crime.

What do you think the Bible is?

Why should God reward you for not beleiving in him? I hever said he was nice. He is just, and true and good, and love. But not "nice". Being just means that God must follow the law as much as we do. He sent his son as fullfillment of the law. Thats why we only have to beleive in Him to go to heaven. You, who refuse to do even that have no right to demand to go to heaven since you are willfully breaking God's command. It doesnt really seem "fair" to allow you, who does not believe in the God of the Bible as far as i can tell, to go to heaven, when all those Christians over 2000 years have died and suffered much of the time for their faith get not oter reward?

(I am not exempting the Catholic church or many other churches from the persecution that has gone on over history. However i do not beleive the men that comminted those atrocities were really christian, be cause if they were, they would have converted, not killed those who disagreed with them)

What was the fate of the millions of people who were born and died before God decided to give us the correct, Christian faith?

The only way to deal with sin, is via Jesus. Thats what his death was for

Or, alternatively - some people considered him a trouble maker, and nailed him to a post.

You are free to believe your story, but what makes it valid?

The BILLIONS of people that were born in cultures that had no mention of the Christian God.

I explained this. This was what the great commision was for.

Good question. I do not know. That is up to God to decide. But remember all are born sinful. We do not start out good, then become corrupt, then get saved. only Adam and eve did that, and since then we have been cursed. It sucks but it is true

So, we're cursed because of the deeds of an idiot that was NOT US. Again: NOT FAIR. Period.

The BILLIONS of people that were born in cultures that had no mention of the Christian God.

Read my post 64. Its the besti can do off the cuff without my bible handy.

Isn't it odd that, instead of focusing on Christ's teachings, most Christians follow the teachings of Paul after him, who was not only not a prophet but also a convert from one of the more extreme anti-Jewish Roman sects? Where Jesus preaches nonviolence, Paul's teachings say that all non-Christians will go to hell. Do I smell bacon? :rolleyes:

Or, alternatively - some people considered him a trouble maker, and nailed him to a post.

You are free to believe your story, but what makes it valid?

Hello again Grave.

There is nothing that can prove it for certianty. Thats what faith is for. But the Bible is where it comes from.

What do you think the Bible is?

A collection of stories written by a variety of people, over a period of more than a thousand years... often under assumed names.

What do you think it is?

I explained this. This was what the great commision was for.

Didn't work, now did it? So you're calling your God inept, too...

So, we're cursed because of the deeds of an idiot that was NOT US. Again: NOT FAIR. Period.


You are so focused on whats fair, yet you want want heaven without having to believe in Jesus or do what he commands? Is that fair? NO. So do not lecture me on fairness.

Also has man really proved himself worthy of heaven? JW, because from whati see, he has not. So even if you take out Adam and Eve , we still suck. Hows that for fair?

On the day of Armmagedeon everyone that has ever lived will be ressurrected and will be judged. There will be the people that will perish from the world forever and the others will be given a second chance at perfection. When this happens satan the devil will be locked in chains for 1000 years. After humans have had the taste of a paradise earth. God will release the devil and satan will try to get as many followers as he can. Then i don't know what will happen because eigher i didnt read it or it was'nt wrote. All this is stated in the bible if you don't believe me then read it yourself. Also only 144,000 people will be going to heaven. These select few will serve as preist and kings from heaven. Everyone else that is saved from armmagedon will help rebuild the earth and live on a paradise earth.There are many sign that the end of this system of things is coming to a end. In the bible it states that weather will become unpreddictable and violent more than anyone has ever seen on this earth now. The most violent and destructive so far has been the Tsunami in East Asia. Im sure we be seeing much more of things like this. I just can't stand when people try to act like they are a true dedicated person person to god and the Lord Jesus Christ. No one is safe in this world and we will never be safe until the day that Jesus Comes down from the heavens and restores order to this world.

You are right about these idiots who call them selfs christians. But i think cathlics are the ones with child molesting preist. Catholics worship false idols. Like the mother mary. When it clearly stats in the bible that no one should worship and give thanks to idols. Instead you should gives thanks to the spirits of these people through Jesuses name. Cathlics must of never read the story of Moses when he went up in the mountains to write the Ten Commandments. After he was done he returned to see that the people were worshiping a golden calf. He was so angry with these people that he threw down these tablet with the Ten commandments writen on them. The tablet were ruined. Another lesson people didnt learn. These christian are the biggest idiots ive ever seen. They will sit there and have premarital relations with people when one of the ten commandments is to not commit adultary. They gossip, they do it all, but worship god.

What do you think the Bible is?

The Bible is the equivalent, in this equation, of a random guy with no uniform or any proof that he belongs to BT knocking on your door and saying that BT installed the telephone. If you'd believe said guy, give me your address, I need to charge you for your domestic appliances, I made them all myself.

Justification is a very contentious issue for many. One thing the Bible makes clear is you cannot "work" your way into heaven. You are not justfied by the fact that you have done X many good things in your life. That does not cut the mustard. If that were the case then there would have to be all kinds of rules and regulations about what does and does not constitute a good act, and how "good" good acts are reletive to one another. If you could be justified purely by works then there would have been no need for Jesus's death.

So Jesus wasn't really serious about that Matthew 25 stuff? ;)

Love is to Hatred
As
Liking is to Disliking
God Loves all but does not like all
There is a difference.
As Neo Cannen said: Hates sin, Loves sinner

I thought that was going to be an acrostic. I am thoroughly disappointed.

You are so focused on whats fair, yet you want want heaven without having to believe in Jesus or do what he commands? Is that fair? NO. So do not lecture me on fairness.

Fair is good deed being rewarded with good, not with burning in Hell over a belief issue.

Isn't it odd that, instead of focusing on Christ's teachings, most Christians follow the teachings of Paul after him, who was not only not a prophet but also a convert from one of the more extreme anti-Jewish Roman sects? Where Jesus preaches nonviolence, Paul's teachings say that all non-Christians will go to hell. Do I smell bacon? :rolleyes:

Well paul was a jewish leader before he converted, so i dont know what you mean by anti jewish. Jesus said noone comes to the father except through me, meaning your going to hell if you dont beleive. Also Jesus said that i came to not bring peace but a sword. So what non violence are you talking about?

Unless you mean that jesus him self never was violent? In which case neither was paul. PAul was jailed and exectued as was jesus. PAuls teachings, while written by paul are still inspired by god. In fact "God" never wrote anyhting. thats what prophets are for. To write and tell his message to others.

Howd a troll post turn into a big thread?

Isn't it odd that, instead of focusing on Christ's teachings, most Christians follow the teachings of Paul after him, who was not only not a prophet but also a convert from one of the more extreme anti-Jewish Roman sects? Where Jesus preaches nonviolence, Paul's teachings say that all non-Christians will go to hell. Do I smell bacon? :rolleyes:

That's because Paul's teachings are more fun and self-satisfying for some.

And just what is any of this hoping to achieve?

On the day of Armmagedeon everyone that has ever lived will be ressurrected and will be judged. There will be the people that will perish from the world forever and the others will be given a second chance at perfection. When this happens satan the devil will be locked in chains for 1000 years. After humans have had the taste of a paradise earth. God will release the devil and satan will try to get as many followers as he can. Then i don't know what will happen because eigher i didnt read it or it was'nt wrote. All this is stated in the bible if you don't believe me then read it yourself. Also only 144,000 people will be going to heaven. These select few will serve as preist and kings from heaven. Everyone else that is saved from armmagedon will help rebuild the earth and live on a paradise earth.There are many sign that the end of this system of things is coming to a end. In the bible it states that weather will become unpreddictable and violent more than anyone has ever seen on this earth now. The most violent and destructive so far has been the Tsunami in East Asia. Im sure we be seeing much more of things like this. I just can't stand when people try to act like they are a true dedicated person person to god and the Lord Jesus Christ. No one is safe in this world and we will never be safe until the day that Jesus Comes down from the heavens and restores order to this world.

You are right about these idiots who call them selfs christians. But i think cathlics are the ones with child molesting preist. Catholics worship false idols. Like the mother mary. When it clearly stats in the bible that no one should worship and give thanks to idols. Instead you should gives thanks to the spirits of these people through Jesuses name. Cathlics must of never read the story of Moses when he went up in the mountains to write the Ten Commandments. After he was done he returned to see that the people were worshiping a golden calf. He was so angry with these people that he threw down these tablet with the Ten commandments writen on them. The tablet were ruined. Another lesson people didnt learn. These christian are the biggest idiots ive ever seen. They will sit there and have premarital relations with people when one of the ten commandments is to not commit adultary. They gossip, they do it all, but worship god.

You've been reading too many of those ridiculous "End Times" novels.

Fair is good deed being rewarded with good, not with burning in Hell over a belief issue.

Do you beleive in hell anyway? If we are wrong then it doesnt really matter right? So why are you so worried about going to hell?

Also, what is good? Is there a somewhere that dictates what is or isnt good. If i do something nice for my girlfriend while shafting my buddies, is that good? Also do i have to more good things than bad to go to heaven? What if im bad all my life except for the last five years? Am i good now? Also, what if my i dea of good is different than yours? Finally what if i do something good but for a selfish or bad purpose? Is it still a good deed?

I've come late to this, and don't really have much interest in sticking around because I've been through this sort of discussion, albeit more lively and intelligent, with the nation called Labrador almost two years ago.

Funnily, she's a Christian now.

No matter. I just wanted to make a few observations on the initial post, and a couple of the ancillary responses that cropped up after it.

I'm an occultist. I study the very foundations of reality itself. I know there are christians and there are idiotic people that actually believe that God is vain enough to love a child-molester who believes in him but not an atheist that does social work.

Well, that's not to say that the actual Christians (I like your use of the term pseudo-Christian, for it is one I have used myself in the past to describe the manner of fool you are here referring to) don't also believe that God loves the child molester, for in plain fact God does. And God loves the atheist as well. That's a relatively easy fact to discern - crack open a conveniently-placed Bible and have a read.

Oh...just for the record, I'm a Roman Catholic.

These second idiots call themselves christians as well, so I'll add quotation marks to their names for the sake of identification. So... Come get me, "christians". I DARE your petty, vain, idiotic evil excuse for a god to come and get me.

A worthy challenge, although I balk at the use of the word 'evil'. I think the important thing to remember about the God of Christian and pseudo-Christian alike is that God is good, righteous, and merciful. That is not really the subject of debate.

The subject of debate is what those three words mean, and to whom they apply. More on that in a second.

I do not believe a god vain enough to allow a child molester into heaven just because said molester believes him, and I will not ever. The truly Christian God would be terribly disappointed to know what you "christians" have been saying in his name, so, again, I dare you to send your "God-that-hates-everyone-that's-not-Christian" after me. Come get me, punks.

It's not that God hates those who are not Christian - quite the opposite, thankfully, for if God should resort to hate then to a man and woman we would all be doomed...for, as the Apostle notes, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

But here is something to consider, and I shall quote the passage in full before I comment on it:

Matthew 22 The Parable of the Wedding Banquet
1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2“The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4“Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

5“But they paid no attention and went off–one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

8“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.

13“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

This is one of my favourite descriptions of how to get into Heaven, likening the kingdom to a wedding feast.

Firstly, there is the invitation, the invitation of Jesus. All are invited. But, as with every party, people can and do choose not to accept the invitation, for whatever reason.

Is the host of the wedding unloving and evil because some people elect not to come to the feast? Of course not - and in fact he is upset by their decision not to come. But he cares for their choice and is bound out of love to respect it, and so he cannot force them to come. The only ones against which the host takes action are those that murder his servants or enslave them, those who do more than refuse and instead resort to evil in some petty attempt at...I'm not sure what, in fact.

Regardless, the invitations are not accepted, so others are invited in their stead.

But even among those who are invited, there are some who are not meant to be there. Who would show up at a wedding banquet proudly holding the invite and yet do so in a disheveled and dirty state? The acceptance of the invitation is not enough - one must also make one's self presentable so as to properly offer respect to the bride and groom. One typically doesn't show up at a wedding reception in torn, paint-stained jeans and a sweaty tank-top. One puts on at least some business-casual attire, if not something more formal.

What Jesus teaches in this parable addresses both the atheist and the pedophile. The atheist simply does not accept the invitation, and so will not be at the wedding (and again, out of love and respect for that unfortunate choice, the host of the wedding will not attempt to forcefully change the atheist's mind). Likewise, the pedophile might accept the invitation, but having not bothered to clean up before attending will also be denied entry, since his actions have clearly disrespected the host, and the bride and groom.

Cheers,
:) Aiera

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteaousness: for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness; sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love yoru enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Just some backing for my previous statements.

On the day of Armmagedeon everyone that has ever lived will be ressurrected and will be judged. There will be the people that will perish from the world forever and the others will be given a second chance at perfection. When this happens satan the devil will be locked in chains for 1000 years. After humans have had the taste of a paradise earth. God will release the devil and satan will try to get as many followers as he can. Then i don't know what will happen because eigher i didnt read it or it was'nt wrote. All this is stated in the bible if you don't believe me then read it yourself. Also only 144,000 people will be going to heaven. These select few will serve as preist and kings from heaven. Everyone else that is saved from armmagedon will help rebuild the earth and live on a paradise earth.There are many sign that the end of this system of things is coming to a end. In the bible it states that weather will become unpreddictable and violent more than anyone has ever seen on this earth now. The most violent and destructive so far has been the Tsunami in East Asia. Im sure we be seeing much more of things like this. I just can't stand when people try to act like they are a true dedicated person person to god and the Lord Jesus Christ. No one is safe in this world and we will never be safe until the day that Jesus Comes down from the heavens and restores order to this world.

You are right about these idiots who call them selfs christians. But i think cathlics are the ones with child molesting preist. Catholics worship false idols. Like the mother mary. When it clearly stats in the bible that no one should worship and give thanks to idols. Instead you should gives thanks to the spirits of these people through Jesuses name. Cathlics must of never read the story of Moses when he went up in the mountains to write the Ten Commandments. After he was done he returned to see that the people were worshiping a golden calf. He was so angry with these people that he threw down these tablet with the Ten commandments writen on them. The tablet were ruined. Another lesson people didnt learn. These christian are the biggest idiots ive ever seen. They will sit there and have premarital relations with people when one of the ten commandments is to not commit adultary. They gossip, they do it all, but worship god.


Sound like Paper Mario:The Thousand Year Door to me...
And the tsunami isn't the biggest natural disaster ever, dipsh*t. Earthquakes have had more deaths. The last figure I have of tsunami deaths was about 750,000 people. One earthquake in Europe killed 1 million in 1400's! The black plague killed more people than that, like 14 million! Then's theres war...

That's because Paul's teachings are more fun and self-satisfying for some.
Indeed.

Just some backing for my previous statements.

True, but those deeds are not what is getting them to heaven. Beleiveing in Christ, who is the epitome of those statements will. Then acting likewise, shows your love for Christ and others.

I've come late to this, and don't really have much interest in sticking around because I've been through this sort of discussion, albeit more lively and intelligent, with the nation called Labrador almost two years ago.

Funnily, she's a Christian now.

No matter. I just wanted to make a few observations on the initial post, and a couple of the ancillary responses that cropped up after it.



Well, that's not to say that the actual Christians (I like your use of the term pseudo-Christian, for it is one I have used myself in the past to describe the manner of fool you are here referring to) don't also believe that God loves the child molester, for in plain fact God does. And God loves the atheist as well. That's a relatively easy fact to discern - crack open a conveniently-placed Bible and have a read.

Oh...just for the record, I'm a Roman Catholic.



A worthy challenge, although I balk at the use of the word 'evil'. I think the important thing to remember about the God of Christian and pseudo-Christian alike is that God is good, righteous, and merciful. That is not really the subject of debate.

The subject of debate is what those three words mean, and to whom they apply. More on that in a second.



It's not that God hates those who are not Christian - quite the opposite, thankfully, for if God should resort to hate then to a man and woman we would all be doomed...for, as the Apostle notes, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

But here is something to consider, and I shall quote the passage in full before I comment on it:



This is one of my favourite descriptions of how to get into Heaven, likening the kingdom to a wedding feast.

Firstly, there is the invitation, the invitation of Jesus. All are invited. But, as with every party, people can and do choose not to accept the invitation, for whatever reason.

Is the host of the wedding unloving and evil because some people elect not to come to the feast? Of course not - and in fact he is upset by their decision not to come. But he cares for their choice and is bound out of love to respect it, and so he cannot force them to come. The only ones against which the host takes action are those that murder his servants or enslave them, those who do more than refuse and instead resort to evil in some petty attempt at...I'm not sure what, in fact.

Regardless, the invitations are not accepted, so others are invited in their stead.

But even among those who are invited, there are some who are not meant to be there. Who would show up at a wedding banquet proudly holding the invite and yet do so in a disheveled and dirty state? The acceptance of the invitation is not enough - one must also make one's self presentable so as to properly offer respect to the bride and groom. One typically doesn't show up at a wedding reception in torn, paint-stained jeans and a sweaty tank-top. One puts on at least some business-casual attire, if not something more formal.

What Jesus teaches in this parable addresses both the atheist and the pedophile. The atheist simply does not accept the invitation, and so will not be at the wedding (and again, out of love and respect for that unfortunate choice, the host of the wedding will not attempt to forcefully change the atheist's mind). Likewise, the pedophile might accept the invitation, but having not bothered to clean up before attending will also be denied entry, since his actions have clearly disrespected the host, and the bride and groom.

Cheers,
:) Aiera

Very well, but then you also acknowledge that the Atheist and the Pedophile won't STAY AT THE SAME PLACE "instead of the wedding". Put another way, any God that would be acceptable would allow the Atheist to either "pick another party" or "stay home and have fun as well" - but not the pedophile. See my point here?

Sound like Paper Mario:The Thousand Year Door to me...
And the tsunami isn't the biggest natural disaster ever, dipsh*t. Earthquakes have had more deaths. The last figure I have of tsunami deaths was about 750,000 people. One earthquake in Europe killed 1 million in 1400's! The black plague killed more people than that, like 14 million! Then's theres war...

Can we avoid end times stuff. That is an entirely different thread sbject.

Can we avoid end times stuff. That is an entirely different thread sbject.
You're right, for once. If ony I had come in earlier... :(
And for the record, he brought it up.

Very well, but then you also acknowledge that the Atheist and the Pedophile won't STAY AT THE SAME PLACE "instead of the wedding". Put another way, any God that would be acceptable would allow the Atheist to either "pick another party" or "stay home and have fun as well" - but not the pedophile. See my point here?

No. Both are not at the party, the party is where it is at. Thats the important point here. Not that the atheist can throw a better party.

Also you beleive the athiest should be allowed in the party even without RSVP. He doesnt have respond, he can just show up. In fact he doesnt even have to like the host. And most importantly he thinks all the other guest who RSVP are jerks because they told him that he should at least tell the host he accepted the invitation.

On the day of Armmagedeon everyone that has ever lived will be ressurrected and will be judged. There will be the people that will perish from the world forever and the others will be given a second chance at perfection. When this happens satan the devil will be locked in chains for 1000 years. After humans have had the taste of a paradise earth. God will release the devil and satan will try to get as many followers as he can. Then i don't know what will happen because eigher i didnt read it or it was'nt wrote. All this is stated in the bible if you don't believe me then read it yourself. Also only 144,000 people will be going to heaven. These select few will serve as preist and kings from heaven. Everyone else that is saved from armmagedon will help rebuild the earth and live on a paradise earth.There are many sign that the end of this system of things is coming to a end. In the bible it states that weather will become unpreddictable and violent more than anyone has ever seen on this earth now. The most violent and destructive so far has been the Tsunami in East Asia. Im sure we be seeing much more of things like this. I just can't stand when people try to act like they are a true dedicated person person to god and the Lord Jesus Christ. No one is safe in this world and we will never be safe until the day that Jesus Comes down from the heavens and restores order to this world.

You are right about these idiots who call them selfs christians. But i think cathlics are the ones with child molesting preist. Catholics worship false idols. Like the mother mary. When it clearly stats in the bible that no one should worship and give thanks to idols. Instead you should gives thanks to the spirits of these people through Jesuses name. Cathlics must of never read the story of Moses when he went up in the mountains to write the Ten Commandments. After he was done he returned to see that the people were worshiping a golden calf. He was so angry with these people that he threw down these tablet with the Ten commandments writen on them. The tablet were ruined. Another lesson people didnt learn. These christian are the biggest idiots ive ever seen. They will sit there and have premarital relations with people when one of the ten commandments is to not commit adultary. They gossip, they do it all, but worship god.

Ah yes, another one of those Revelations junkies. Of course, there are many ways to interpret any given clause of Revelations, and most sane people don't take any of it seriously anyway. To an outsider, Revelations must look rediculous, and that's basically because it is; Saint John The Divine doses on some really heavy-duty mushrooms, and his trip involves the lamb of God, a seven-headed beast mounted by a whore, seven seals, trumpeting angels, vials of wrath, &c. ad nauseam. Fun, interesting, but certainly not credible, any way you look at it.

You're right, for once. If ony I had come in earlier... :(
And for the record, he brought it up.

LOL well being right for once is better than never being right at all.

However i still do not believe in gravity no matter what you "scientists" say...

And i know he brought it up, but your quote was smaller.

No. Both are not at the party, the party is where it is at. Thats the important point here. Not that the atheist can throw a better party.

Also you beleive the athiest should be allowed in the party even without RSVP. He doesnt have respond, he can just show up. In fact he doesnt even have to like the host. And most importantly he thinks all the other guest who RSVP are jerks because they told him that he should at least tell the host he accepted the invitation.

See, equalling a nice atheist and a child-molesting believer is unfair, and no one can believe otherwise and keep any trace of logic.

No. Both are not at the party, the party is where it is at. Thats the important point here. Not that the atheist can throw a better party.

Also you beleive the athiest should be allowed in the party even without RSVP. He doesnt have respond, he can just show up. In fact he doesnt even have to like the host. And most importantly he thinks all the other guest who RSVP are jerks because they told him that he should at least tell the host he accepted the invitation.

Wait, why can't he throw a better party? Is the party he's going to the best? I doubt it, since it doesn't have the most people in it. Gramt it, he isn't, in this case, but he could, with enough people.
Going back into an older subject, if I don't beleive in heaven, I shuldn't go in, correct? Yes, but what if I don't beleive in hell? Should I go there, then? I haven't even done anything wrong, just differntly. Why should I be punished? Why is only Christians are right, and everything else is wrong?

I didnt mean ever. I was saying since the jesus took the throne of earth. I think some people believe he took throne in 1913. Satan's influence has been growing strong in the last 100 years. Hitler is the reason that i believe that the end of this system that is run my the devil has started.

Revolations was put there for a reason.

AUGH! I hate ignorant morons who just spout what their hateful pastor tells them instead of seeking a moment's reason! Lay off the Jack Chick tracts - they're bad for your mental health!

Being a Roman Catholic and a very happy Christian, I can't abide these under-educated fools who say stuff like this, and must respond.

You are right about these idiots who call them selfs christians. But i think cathlics are the ones with child molesting preist.

Ah, yes, clearly only Catholics molest children. Pfffft! Right, try another one. Yes, the Church has had its share of scandal in the recent past, and yes we are trying to deal with it in the best way we can.

Is it the fault of the Church, though? Let's face it, priests are only human, and to attribute to them no human weakness would be a grave injustice to them. Just like you and me they have their temptations to face, and just like you and me, they sometimes fail. And just like when we fail, people get hurt.

Does that invalidate the Church? No. It just means that Catholics are sinners to. Whoa! What a surprise.

Catholics worship false idols.

If God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit (the Blessed Trinity) are false idols, then yes, you are right.

Like the mother mary.

Silence, ignorant fool! You know not of what you speak!

And now, for your edification, I present Aiera's patented ten-second guide the the Hail Mary:

Hail Mary, full of Grace - this is a hailing, a greeting. We're saying hello.
The Lord is with Thee - Mary is in Heaven. The Lord is in Heaven. The Lord is thus with Mary.
Blessed are thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb - straight out of the Bible, this is Elizabeth's greeting to Mary. And just who is the fruit of Mary's womb?
Jesus

Holy Mary, Mother of God - a hugely important tenet of Christianity is the Trinity, the one-ness of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus and God different aspects of the same being, so it is not unreasonable to say that Jesus is in fact God. And Mary, as mother of Jesus, would thus also be the mother of...well, you can figure it out.
Pray for us sinners - We ask Mary to pray for us, to plead for us to her divine Son. Scriptural basis: the wedding at Cana, and Mary's gentle pressuring of Jesus to turn the water into wine.
[b]Now and at the hour of our death, Amen[b] - and we don't ask her to pray for us once, but at all times.

There is is. As you can see, the focus is not on Mary, or on the worship of Mary, but still on Jesus, and on asking Mary to pray for us to Jesus.

When it clearly stats in the bible that no one should worship and give thanks to idols. Instead you should gives thanks to the spirits of these people through Jesuses name.

No, because to give thanks to Mary and the Saints would then be idolatry.

Do you know what an intercessor is, young fool? Scripture tells us that where two or three are gathered in His name, there is the Lord in their midst. Okay, fine, but what about when praying alone? Intercessors are the saints, and Mary, and we do not pray to them to worship them, but to ask them to pray with us to the Lord. In essence, in times of solitude, we ask the saints, or Mary, to pray alongside us so that there might be two or three gathered in Christ's name.

Wow, how very pagan.

Cathlics must of never read the story of Moses when he went up in the mountains to write the Ten Commandments. After he was done he returned to see that the people were worshiping a golden calf. He was so angry with these people that he threw down these tablet with the Ten commandments writen on them. The tablet were ruined. Another lesson people didnt learn.

Oh, I think the lesson was quite well learned by some, but not yourself. What is the greater meaning behind that story? False gods that pull us away from the one true God. Things like greed for money, lust, all the things that are anathema to the Ten Commandments that were broken asunder that day.

Are intercessory prayers directed at false gods? Well, if Jesus is a false god, then I guess the answer is yes.

*sigh* And you call yourself Christian. Pffft!

These christian are the biggest idiots ive ever seen. They will sit there and have premarital relations with people when one of the ten commandments is to not commit adultary. They gossip, they do it all, but worship god.

Yes, people are sinners. What a news flash THAT is!

*sigh* You need to lay off the Jack Chick, and maybe switch pastors too.

:( Aiera

LOL well being right for once is better than never being right at all.

However i still do not believe in gravity no matter what you "scientists" say...

And i know he brought it up, but your quote was smaller.

Quote text is in italics as compared to normal text, which is much smaller.

AUGH! I hate ignorant morons who just spout what their hateful pastor tells them instead of seeking a moment's reason! Lay off the Jack Chick tracts - they're bad for your mental health!

Being a Roman Catholic and a very happy Christian, I can't abide these under-educated fools who say stuff like this, and must respond.

You are right about these idiots who call them selfs christians. But i think cathlics are the ones with child molesting preist.

Ah, yes, clearly only Catholics molest children. Pfffft! Right, try another one. Yes, the Church has had its share of scandal in the recent past, and yes we are trying to deal with it in the best way we can.

Is it the fault of the Church, though? Let's face it, priests are only human, and to attribute to them no human weakness would be a grave injustice to them. Just like you and me they have their temptations to face, and just like you and me, they sometimes fail. And just like when we fail, people get hurt.

Does that invalidate the Church? No. It just means that Catholics are sinners to. Whoa! What a surprise.

Catholics worship false idols.

If God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit (the Blessed Trinity) are false idols, then yes, you are right.

Like the mother mary.

Silence, ignorant fool! You know not of what you speak!

And now, for your edification, I present Aiera's patented ten-second guide the the Hail Mary:

Hail Mary, full of Grace - this is a hailing, a greeting. We're saying hello.
The Lord is with Thee - Mary is in Heaven. The Lord is in Heaven. The Lord is thus with Mary.
Blessed are thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb - straight out of the Bible, this is Elizabeth's greeting to Mary. And just who is the fruit of Mary's womb?
Jesus

Holy Mary, Mother of God - a hugely important tenet of Christianity is the Trinity, the one-ness of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus and God different aspects of the same being, so it is not unreasonable to say that Jesus is in fact God. And Mary, as mother of Jesus, would thus also be the mother of...well, you can figure it out.
Pray for us sinners - We ask Mary to pray for us, to plead for us to her divine Son. Scriptural basis: the wedding at Cana, and Mary's gentle pressuring of Jesus to turn the water into wine.
Now and at the hour of our death, Amen - and we don't ask her to pray for us once, but at all times.

There is is. As you can see, the focus is not on Mary, or on the worship of Mary, but still on Jesus, and on asking Mary to pray for us to Jesus.

When it clearly stats in the bible that no one should worship and give thanks to idols. Instead you should gives thanks to the spirits of these people through Jesuses name.

No, because to give thanks to Mary and the Saints would then be idolatry.

Do you know what an intercessor is, young fool? Scripture tells us that where two or three are gathered in His name, there is the Lord in their midst. Okay, fine, but what about when praying alone? Intercessors are the saints, and Mary, and we do not pray to them to worship them, but to ask them to pray with us to the Lord. In essence, in times of solitude, we ask the saints, or Mary, to pray alongside us so that there might be two or three gathered in Christ's name.

Wow, how very pagan.

Cathlics must of never read the story of Moses when he went up in the mountains to write the Ten Commandments. After he was done he returned to see that the people were worshiping a golden calf. He was so angry with these people that he threw down these tablet with the Ten commandments writen on them. The tablet were ruined. Another lesson people didnt learn.

Oh, I think the lesson was quite well learned by some, but not yourself. What is the greater meaning behind that story? False gods that pull us away from the one true God. Things like greed for money, lust, all the things that are anathema to the Ten Commandments that were broken asunder that day.

Are intercessory prayers directed at false gods? Well, if Jesus is a false god, then I guess the answer is yes.

*sigh* And you call yourself Christian. Pffft!

These christian are the biggest idiots ive ever seen. They will sit there and have premarital relations with people when one of the ten commandments is to not commit adultary. They gossip, they do it all, but worship god.

Yes, people are sinners. What a news flash THAT is!

*sigh* You need to lay off the Jack Chick, and maybe switch pastors too. Or do you not see that in Christ can be found redemption for, and salvation from, those sins?

:( Aiera

Why do people do this? Why do people go out in a deliberate attempt to make other people angry? Next time you want to do something this stupid, sir, just stand in the road until a truck hits you instead.

Hello again Grave.

There is nothing that can prove it for certianty. Thats what faith is for. But the Bible is where it comes from.

No - the bible is where you read the stories thay support the faith you have.

Why do people do this? Why do people go out in a deliberate attempt to make other people angry? Next time you want to do something this stupid, sir, just stand in the road until a truck hits you instead.


He has a diffrent belief waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Cry me a river, poof! You've done an act of god! LYKE OMG U R TEH GODZORZ!!1ONE!1
And PS:afk, food

No - the bible is where you read the stories thay support the faith you have.

So, let me get this straight: You read a book to support the faith that you must have in order to read the book that supports the faith you must have in order to read the book that supports the faith you must have in order to read the book that supports the faith you must have in order to read the book that supports the faith you must have in order to read the book that supports the faith you must have in order to read the book that supports the faith you must have in order to...

Okay, I'm getting dizzy.

Very well, but then you also acknowledge that the Atheist and the Pedophile won't STAY AT THE SAME PLACE "instead of the wedding". Put another way, any God that would be acceptable would allow the Atheist to either "pick another party" or "stay home and have fun as well" - but not the pedophile. See my point here?

Actually, since neither the atheist or the pedophile are admitted to the party, the atheist by choice and the pedophile because of inappropriate attire, they would both be free to seek out another party, should one exist.

Of course, by definition, any other party would also require the atheist to make an acceptance of an invitation, and so unless s/he would change his/her outlook on such things, s/he would continue to not attend such parties.

As for the pedophile...well...there's still the matter of his attire.

Long digression made short, and because I fear I am beginning to ramble, what you say is true and not. The pedophile will likely never gain admittance to any party, should others exist, as long as he's wearing the torn and stained jeans and the sweaty top.

Likewise, the atheist will never gain admittance to any party, should others exist, as long as s/he's sitting at home refusing every invitation that comes his/her way.

Salvation is not something that just happens, but something that you have to desire for. No group of party-revellers is going to just show up and abduct you from your home - you have to choose for yourself to attend the party. That might mean changing your philosophy, or cleaning up your act.

People find that hard to accept, I understand.

:) Aiera

I didnt say that only cathlics are the only child molesters.
And that person that thinks everything i said was wrong when a couple of your responses where dumb. Cathlics are almost identical to Bin lauden religion. They twist religions around to suit there own needs. Actually most religions anymore are doing this now. Thats why i have not found a true honest religion to attend yet. Closest ive found are Jehovah Wittnesses.

Actually, since neither the atheist or the pedophile are admitted to the party, the atheist by choice and the pedophile because of inappropriate attire, they would both be free to seek out another party, should one exist.

Of course, by definition, any other party would also require the atheist to make an acceptance of an invitation, and so unless s/he would change his/her outlook on such things, s/he would continue to not attend such parties.

As for the pedophile...well...there's still the matter of his attire.

Long digression made short, and because I fear I am beginning to ramble, what you say is true and not. The pedophile will likely never gain admittance to any party, should others exist, as long as he's wearing the torn and stained jeans and the sweaty top.

Likewise, the atheist will never gain admittance to any party, should others exist, as long as s/he's sitting at home refusing every invitation that comes his/her way.

Salvation is not something that just happens, but something that you have to desire for. No group of party-revellers is going to just show up and abduct you from your home - you have to choose for yourself to attend the party. That might mean changing your philosophy, or cleaning up your act.

People find that hard to accept, I understand.

:) Aiera


Maybe so, but then you must remember that atheists find pleasure in oblivion, and child molesters don't, but it'd be their only choice. Then - and ONLY then - such a system would be fair.

Revolations was put there for a reason.

Yes, as a message of hope to a people in times of strife, namely the persecuted Christians of the day in which it was written.

Out of curiousity, what does the number 666 mean, silly fool? I'll give you a hint, it's Hebrew numerology.

In ancient Hebrew, in which Revelations was written originally, each letter has a numerical value. If you write out the name NERO in Hebrew, the summed value of the letters that make it up is...surprise...666.

And just who was Nero? None other than the Roman emperor who was at the time persecuting the Christians almost to extinction.

:) Aiera

Maybe so, but then you must remember that atheists find pleasure in oblivion, and child molesters don't, but it'd be their only choice. Then - and ONLY then - such a system would be fair.

Perhaps, but you're still trying to place the blame on the wedding host for not offering you an acceptable party to go to after you've refused HIS invitation in the first place.

If you can't make it to a friend's birthday party, do you call him up and bitch him out for not telling you about another party going on at the local pub that same night?

I hope not!
:( Aiera

I didnt say that only cathlics are the only child molesters.
And that person that thinks everything i said was wrong when a couple of your responses where dumb. Cathlics are almost identical to Bin lauden religion. They twist religions around to suit there own needs. Actually most religions anymore are doing this now. Thats why i have not found a true honest religion to attend yet. Closest ive found are Jehovah Wittnesses.

The JW's DON'T twist religion to suit their needs?!?!? They can't even properly translate the Biblical texts - they add words that aren't there so the message says what they want it to!

You're barking up the wrong tree, young fool, and making very poor debate, so I shall respond to you as Jesus responded to the guard.

a couple of your responses where dumb.

If I have spoken wrong, testify to the wrong.

:) Aiera

Stop whining, you idiots. Nobody is making you be a Christian. What do you hope to accomplish by baiting us? And whats wrong with modern-day Catholics?

Perhaps, but you're still trying to place the blame on the wedding host for not offering you an acceptable party to go to after you've refused HIS invitation in the first place.

If you can't make it to a friend's birthday party, do you call him up and bitch him out for not telling you about another party going on at the local pub that same night?

I hope not!
:( Aiera

No, not the blame, but pointing that if it's a matter of wishing/believing, then it's fair that the atheist enjoys oblivion and chooses it, but the child-molester doesn't. For one, oblivion is a reward, for the other, punishment.

This thread reminds me of the old, "Hex me all you Voodoo, Satanic or other Magic groups". Silly and pointless.

No, not the blame, but pointing that if it's a matter of wishing/believing, then it's fair that the atheist enjoys oblivion and chooses it, but the child-molester doesn't. For one, oblivion is a reward, for the other, punishment.

Ah, then what we're having is a violent agreement. ;)

Because that's what is waiting on the outside the party - oblivion. True death, the destruction of the eternal soul, and a couple of other poetic phrases I could use.

I wouldn't know if the term 'reward' would apply to it.

:( Aiera

Aiera, I got a question for you what does Jesus mean according to the bible?

Aiera, I got a question for you what does Jesus mean according to the bible?

A good question, and one I will reply to in the near future. But not just yet, as I have a couple errands to run first. Be back in a couple hours, and you're first on the list.

:) Aiera

Ah, then what we're having is a violent agreement. ;)

Because that's what is waiting on the outside the party - oblivion. True death, the destruction of the eternal soul, and a couple of other poetic phrases I could use.

I wouldn't know if the term 'reward' would apply to it.

:( Aiera

That assuming there's only "one party". Who knows, maybe there's an atheist party too :)

OK at one time Christianity was persecuted as a cult.. and once there was enough followers of this "cult" they in turn began persecuting all other religions as 'Cults" now, who is to say that thier cult is the right one?

...

Nice to see you again, Silver.

A good question, and one I will reply to in the near future. But not just yet, as I have a couple errands to run first. Be back in a couple hours, and you're first on the list.

:) Aiera

Actually, I have time now, so here it is, plain and simple.

The Apostle's Creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. AMEN.

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

While these two creeds, statements of faith said by every Catholic every time s/he attends any Catholic service, almost perfectly capture what Jesus was, here's my thoughts on it too:

Jesus was fully human and yet fully God, the son of the Living God who came down from Heaven to save sinners, of which I am certainly one. Jesus is Lord of Heaven and Earth, and is one in being with God the Father and the Holy Spirit in the Blessed Trinity, the Three in One.

Jesus suffered and died under Pontious Pilate, taking on the sum total weight of all sin so that in dying he might destroy sin's hold on humanity and free us from the doom it would bring. In rising back to life, he destroyed forever death's hold on our immortal souls and forged the path of salvation and eternal life.

Jesus, as God, is always present and among us, for the Kingdom of Heaven is now.

(said the Catholic)
;) Aiera

That assuming there's only "one party". Who knows, maybe there's an atheist party too :)

Well, admittedly, I cling to the hope of one day meeting Bertrand Russel and Samuel Clements, because I have found their atheistic scholarly works to be just excellent devotional reading. Especially Russel's Why I am Not a Christian.

:) Aiera

Alright, you really flippin pissed me off... how are you gonna sit there and cal us idiodic evil stupid people... what it seems to me is that you are the most stupid of all of us ... God is a loving God he forgives and cares about his disciples.. oh but you probably would not know that... and also you have to belive in him before you are saved and yes he would choose a child molestor over a atheist .... thats all i have to say right now

Alright, you really flippin pissed me off... how are you gonna sit there and cal us idiodic evil stupid people... what it seems to me is that you are the most stupid of all of us ... God is a loving God he forgives and cares about his disciples.. oh but you probably would not know that... and also you have to belive in him before you are saved and yes he would choose a child molestor over a atheist .... thats all i have to say right now

*sigh* Girl, please read my above. Just because you're a Christian child molestor does not mean you're any more saved than an atheist. Yes, you're a Christian, but not all who call themselves Christian will be saved. There's still the small matter of living a life commensurate with the statement of faith you have made.

And let's face it, if you say you're a Christian and you rape kids, then you're actually a hypocrite and you're not going to be saved.

:( Aiera

Nice to see you again, Silver.

heya HR *winks*

BTW, Vetmor, I'm still waiting for you to tell me which of my responses were, as you say, 'dumb'!

Hurry up!
:) Aiera

heya HR *winks*

:) Are you here to stay, or just passing through?

:) Are you here to stay, or just passing through?

Oh I show up here occasionally still... just don't post much anymore... there are few threads that as as fun as there used to be, if there was I probably would post more :(

Oh I show up here occasionally still... just don't post much anymore... there are few threads that as as fun as there used to be, if there was I probably would post more :(

I hear that. Do you ever pop in to the Paradise Club?

Cathlics are almost identical to Bin lauden religion. They twist religions around to suit there own needs.
We have a logical fallacy (http://datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm) here, folks! Your argument is nullified.

It seems to me in the situation of the well meaning atheist and the "christian" child-molester that this atheist who clearly has love for their fellow humans is not an inherantly bad person, and doesn't seem a likely candidate for hell. Here's the thing though. If the atheist openly renounces god and says he doesn't exist, and that the atheist hates all christians with a malice becuase of their beliefs, that's surely aiding a ticket to hell.

But being so well meaning, I hardly think the well meaning atheist would hate someone with different beliefs.

I hear that. Do you ever pop in to the Paradise Club?

No haven't yet.... I keep thinking I should
you hang there?

No haven't yet.... I keep thinking I should
you hang there?

Occasionally. Its not the same as it was in the old days, but it's not bad.

Nothing is ever as it was..lol but i do miss playing in a bar, and now since i am so old school few remember me.... :P

God told Joesph and Mary to name Mary's future child Jesus, which mean "Jehovah is Salvation." (Matthew 1:21, Luke 1:31). Solve...

It seems to me in the situation of the well meaning atheist and the "christian" child-molester that this atheist who clearly has love for their fellow humans is not an inherantly bad person, and doesn't seem a likely candidate for hell. Here's the thing though. If the atheist openly renounces god and says he doesn't exist, and that the atheist hates all christians with a malice becuase of their beliefs, that's surely aiding a ticket to hell.

But being so well meaning, I hardly think the well meaning atheist would hate someone with different beliefs.

Typically, that is true (although I've noticed a decline in the number of well-meaning atheists, according to that definition, on these boards in the last couple years. Mind you, I've also noted a sharp decline in the number of non-pseudo-Christians, according to the definition in this thread, so I suppose that's no surprise).

Of course, that doesn't address the teaching of the parable: how can you attend the party (Heaven) when you don't accept the invitation you've received?

Human pride is a strange and funny thing.
:) Aiera

Nothing is ever as it was..lol but i do miss playing in a bar, and now since i am so old school few remember me.... :P

You could make a reputation among the new crowd if you wanted. It might be fun.

You could make a reputation among the new crowd if you wanted. It might be fun.

*laughs* ah yes my rep.... almost got me in trouble a few times... will have to think about it... will play again more then likely though... i really do miss it and besides Hans would like to play too I bet ;)

I believe God is perfect. Infact i know he is. Nomatter who talks of him, they all agree that he is. Of course, can perfection exist? Can something be so infinitely great that it can no longer be bettered? That i cannot believe. Organised religion portrays their god as perfect, but i cannot believe in organised religion either. All people should have the right to self-determination of their beliefs, and it is on the complete opposite that organised religion is based. I envy those who through contemplation and compiled experience find a true belief, as i have yet to reach such a destination, but i refuse to accept teaching a child a belief with no other contenders as right. I see such 'mass-religions' as impersonal traps for the mind, and although that is mostly oppinion, i feel such traps were meant only to be escaped from. But hey, who am i to judge anyway?

Exactly, Aiera. Which is why it's such a shame to see good honest people (i.e the well-meaning atheist group, which incidentally are represented by the majority of my friends and collegues) turn down the "invitation". All they need is a little suggestion of the good that salvation through Jesus Christ can offer them. That's what I believe Christianity is about: not forcing our beliefs down other people's throats, but rather presenting people with our argument, and allowing them to make their own descisions. (But we know what choice we want them to make, of course =P)

*laughs* ah yes my rep.... almost got me in trouble a few times... will have to think about it... will play again more then likely though... i really do miss it and besides Hans would like to play too I bet ;)

Good. :) I hope to see you both around. Adios!

I believe God is perfect. Infact i know he is. Nomatter who talks of him, they all agree that he is. Of course, can perfection exist? Can something be so infinitely great that it can no longer be bettered? That i cannot believe. Organised religion portrays their god as perfect, but i cannot believe in organised religion either. All people should have the right to self-determination of their beliefs, and it is on the complete opposite that organised religion is based. I envy those who through contemplation and compiled experience find a true belief, as i have yet to reach such a destination, but i refuse to accept teaching a child a belief with no other contenders as right. I see such 'mass-religions' as impersonal traps for the mind, and although that is mostly oppinion, i feel such traps were meant only to be escaped from. But hey, who am i to judge anyway?

Absolutely. Organised religion is not a good idea. Rules and regulations stating what other people think I should believe in? No thanks. Jesus was himself against organised religion. Christianity (for me anyway) is something I've chosen to believe in. The fact that it corresponds to the beliefs of so many other people isn't because I've been opressed. It's all to do with choice.

Oooh, I love all this arguing by analogy. Let's do more of that!

God told Joesph and Mary to name Mary's future child Jesus, which mean "Jehovah is Salvation." (Matthew 1:21, Luke 1:31). Solve...

You really ought to check your translation of the Bible, my friend.

Firstly, the correct translation of Matthew 1:21 is as follows:
She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.
NRSV Translation, http://bible.oremus.org/browser.cgi?passage=Matthew+1

Secondly, the correct translation of Luke 1:31 is as follows:
And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus.
NRSV Translation, http://bible.oremus.org/browser.cgi?passage=Luke+1

No translations of the word there.

Finally, drawing on my own recollections of conversations with friends who are scholars of Hebrew, I must observe that a proper translation of the Hebrew name Yeshua (which is Jesus' proper name, the name Jesus being an Anglicanization of the Hebrew word) is "Salvation", simply put, although the name could be construed as a concatenation of the Hebrew term for "Lord of Salvation".

As well, since we're quoting Matthew, might I dein to quote you Matthew 1:21-23?
She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.’ 22All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23‘Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,’ which means, ‘God is with us.'
NRSV Translation, http://bible.oremus.org/browser.cgi?passage=Matthew+1

Cheers,
:) Aiera

Exactly, Aiera. Which is why it's such a shame to see good honest people (i.e the well-meaning atheist group, which incidentally are represented by the majority of my friends and collegues) turn down the "invitation". All they need is a little suggestion of the good that salvation through Jesus Christ can offer them. That's what I believe Christianity is about: not forcing our beliefs down other people's throats, but rather presenting people with our argument, and allowing them to make their own descisions. (But we know what choice we want them to make, of course =P)

I agree whole-heartedly, and in my own efforts at bringing people to conversion, I'm not ramming my own beliefs down their throats (that's not conversion anyhow, but is more akin to conscription).

Instead, I present what I know as an analog to what they already know to be true, and present God as a greater meaning behind the beauty and wonder they already perceive. The choice rests with them to listen to what I have to say, or to tell me to back off.

:) Aiera

Jehovah wittnesses are the most nicest people ive seen they don't like violence, cursing, sex before marriage. they try to there best to follow god's word in the bible that almost everyone is not following right now. When a Jehovah wittness commits a very bad sin they get the silent treatment. I think they call it Disfellowshiped. Cathlic just go into a booth and confess to a man. And what do you know no punishment. When moses said "I made water come from this rock" he was prohibited from entering the promised land. He was a very dedicated to helping. He messed up one time and he was banished to ever enter the promised land. Cathlic think well ill go steal this or that. Hey they can go to the church and confess to a man, and then he forgiven. I don't know if they twist the words in the bible or its you that is.

Jehovah wittnesses are the most nicest people ive seen they don't like violence, cursing, sex before marriage. they try to there best to follow god's word in the bible that almost everyone is not following right now. When a Jehovah wittness commits a very bad sin they get the silent treatment. I think they call it Disfellowshiped. Cathlic just go into a booth and confess to a man. And what do you know no punishment. When moses said "I made water come from this rock" he was prohibited from entering the promised land. He was a very dedicated to helping. He messed up one time and he was banished to ever enter the promised land. Cathlic think well ill go steal this or that. Hey they can go to the church and confess to a man, and then he forgiven. I don't know if they twist the words in the bible or its you that is.

Way to change the subject when things are looking bad.

Atleast i got the salvation part right. And i didnt care to look up the scripture i said basically what the real thing says.

Atleast i got the salvation part right. And i didnt care to look up the scripture i said basically what the real thing says.

No you didn't.

You also misrepresented the Catholic ritual of confession.

I didnt change the subject someone posted earlier that JWs twist the bible translations around. So i responded.

Salvation is associated with the name Jesus. So no i did get part of it right.

I didnt change the subject someone posted earlier that JWs twist the bible translations around. So i responded.

Even if it were on that subject as you say, JW's being really nice people isn't relevant to whether they have twisted biblical passages to suit their needs, and the Catholic ritual of confession certainly has no relevance to that point.

Revolations was put there for a reason.
By whom? What was their reasoning behind it?
I'd like to see you back up this statement.

Jehovah wittnesses are the most nicest people ive seen they don't like violence, cursing, sex before marriage. they try to there best to follow god's word in the bible that almost everyone is not following right now.

And yet they also do not accept basic medical treatments like blood transfusions, nor do they celebrate Christmas as the birth of the Lord, nor Good Friday and Easter for the death and resurrection of the Lord and the salvation of all.

When a Jehovah wittness commits a very bad sin they get the silent treatment. I think they call it Disfellowshiped.

Yes, exactly...let's just ignore the sinners and throw them out, never speak to them and never give them a chance to repent.

Right. Since you're so quick to make Biblical quotation, show me where the heck it was written that Jesus refused to hang out with the lowly, the sinful.

Oh, that's right, he didn't do that! He dined with the tax collectors, he stopped the stoning of the adulterous woman, he cleansed the lepers. Whoops!

Cathlic just go into a booth and confess to a man. And what do you know no punishment.

How little you understand.

In confessing to the priest, we are stating our sins in the open, admitting our wrongs to the representative of the Christian community of which we are a part. And it's not like we're forgiven out of hand, either. For a true confession to bring about absolution and forgiveness of sins, we must honestly make the effort to repent and "sin no more" as Jesus directed many to do.

You're right about the no punishment bit, though, because God is not a God of punishment and retribution.

When moses said "I made water come from this rock" he was prohibited from entering the promised land. He was a very dedicated to helping. He messed up one time and he was banished to ever enter the promised land.

And yet God so loved the world that He sent his Only Son to live as one of us, experience temptation as one of us, and die in the most brutal manner under the weight of all our sinfulness so that no other person might be cast from the promised salvation.

So Moses was never allowed to enter Judea. Big deal - he still got to Heaven, and what's more important I ask you?

Cathlic think well ill go steal this or that. Hey they can go to the church and confess to a man, and then he forgiven. I don't know if they twist the words in the bible or its you that is.

We make confession to the priest as the representative of the Christian community of which we are a part, and as the intercessor of the Lord. We confess our sins not to the priest but to the Lord in the presence of the priest.

Penance is not meant as a punishment, but instead the prayers we are told to say are meant to foster reflection in our hearts so that we might understand how it is we fell in to sin so that we might not so fall again.

And because of that, even if we screw up, we will still find welcome in the faces of our friends. That's a damn sight better than getting tossed out like a piece of trash.

:) Aiera

Atleast i got the salvation part right. And i didnt care to look up the scripture i said basically what the real thing says.

Ah, so clearly it was correct and on point, then!

Or perhaps you're just pulling shit out of your ass and expecting us not to double-check the facts, thus revealing you to be a fool.

;) Aiera

I'm an occultist. I study the very foundations of reality itself. I know there are christians and there are idiotic people that actually believe that God is vain enough to love a child-molester who believes in him but not an atheist that does social work. These second idiots call themselves christians as well, so I'll add quotation marks to their names for the sake of identification. So... Come get me, "christians". I DARE your petty, vain, idiotic evil excuse for a god to come and get me. I do not believe a god vain enough to allow a child molester into heaven just because said molester believes him, and I will not ever. The truly Christian God would be terribly disappointed to know what you "christians" have been saying in his name, so, again, I dare you to send your "God-that-hates-everyone-that's-not-Christian" after me. Come get me, punks.
*Starts singing* Did I ever tell you you're my hero? You're everything I wish I could be... ;)

I didnt say that only cathlics are the only child molesters.
And that person that thinks everything i said was wrong when a couple of your responses where dumb. Cathlics are almost identical to Bin lauden religion. They twist religions around to suit there own needs. Actually most religions anymore are doing this now. Thats why i have not found a true honest religion to attend yet. Closest ive found are Jehovah Wittnesses.
OUCH
there go my eyes again!

the JW dont even use an accurate translation of the bible

I'm repeating myself here, but...

BTW, Vetmor, I'm still waiting for you to tell me which of my responses were, as you say, 'dumb'!

Hurry up!
:) Aiera

Jehovah's Wittnesses do reinstate people after they have experienced what is like to attend church and to not associate people. Its not extremely long though. I do agree that it does seem that they take a few things and twist them.

Gazzmania Original and Nationally Accepted Dictionary entry:

--"Aiera"--
Quite possibly the coolest person I've seen in my short time on the NationStates forums.

Even if I wanted to become religious, I'm afraid I'd have no interest in worshipping a deity that seemed so insecure. This super being is supposed to be so much greater than humans, yet it bases it's reward system on rather or not you accept it as your leader. It seems less interested in how you treat your fellow beings than it is on rather or not you accept it as the boss.

Even if I wanted to become religious, I'm afraid I'd have no interest in worshipping a deity that seemed so insecure. This super being is supposed to be so much greater than humans, yet it bases it's reward system on rather or not you accept it as your leader. It seems less interested in how you treat your fellow beings than it is on rather or not you accept it as the boss.
cant help but agree with you

but the image of god throughout the ages has been a reflection of the psychology of the men at the top of the theological ladder. that doesnt mean that one couldnt be a christian and have a more rational view of god.

you would just be rather lonely with it.

Even if I wanted to become religious, I'm afraid I'd have no interest in worshipping a deity that seemed so insecure. This super being is supposed to be so much greater than humans, yet it bases it's reward system on rather or not you accept it as your leader. It seems less interested in how you treat your fellow beings than it is on rather or not you accept it as the boss.

HEY! YOU STOLE MY POINT! :)

*Starts singing* Did I ever tell you you're my hero? You're everything I wish I could be... ;)

Sarcasm or not, the joke was good, so you got my respect. ;)

Jehovah wittnesses are the most nicest people ive seen they don't like violence, cursing, sex before marriage. they try to there best to follow god's word in the bible that almost everyone is not following right now. When a Jehovah wittness commits a very bad sin they get the silent treatment. I think they call it Disfellowshiped. Cathlic just go into a booth and confess to a man. And what do you know no punishment. When moses said "I made water come from this rock" he was prohibited from entering the promised land. He was a very dedicated to helping. He messed up one time and he was banished to ever enter the promised land. Cathlic think well ill go steal this or that. Hey they can go to the church and confess to a man, and then he forgiven. I don't know if they twist the words in the bible or its you that is.

You know, Vetmor, I'm not sure entirely which aspect of your personality I dislike more: your total disregard for scientific reality, your hateful closed-mindedness, or your inability to properly complete a sentence.

It's a little harsh to go after people's religions. I mean, calling Christians pseudo-Christians? That is pretty harsh.

OUCH
there go my eyes again!

the JW dont even use an accurate translation of the bible
Oooh, now we're getting into murky waters; are you referring to the Authorized King James Version as "accurate," or what? Accuracy is relative, and factuality is all to often in the eye of the beholder - especially in regards to Bible studies.

It's a little harsh to go after people's religions. I mean, calling Christians pseudo-Christians? That is pretty harsh.

I called CERTAIN christians pseudo-christians. You know, the Fred Phelps, God-hates-fags, God-hates-non-believers, Everyone-else-is-going-to-Hell-but-us style.

Salvation is associated with the name Jesus. So no i did get part of it right.
He's simply pointing out a semantic difference - Yeshua does not *refer to* salvation, it *means* salvation.
Calm down, children, it's only the Bibble-dee-dibble; no need to get excited.

I'm an occultist. I study the very foundations of reality itself. I know there are christians and there are idiotic people that actually believe that God is vain enough to love a child-molester who believes in him but not an atheist that does social work. These second idiots call themselves christians as well, so I'll add quotation marks to their names for the sake of identification. So... Come get me, "christians". I DARE your petty, vain, idiotic evil excuse for a god to come and get me. I do not believe a god vain enough to allow a child molester into heaven just because said molester believes him, and I will not ever. The truly Christian God would be terribly disappointed to know what you "christians" have been saying in his name, so, again, I dare you to send your "God-that-hates-everyone-that's-not-Christian" after me. Come get me, punks.
God loves everyone, and forgives all. If the child molestor truly repents his sins, he shall find forgiveness. God loves the molestor, the athiest, and even you. God does not reject unbelievers.

They reject Him.

HEY! YOU STOLE MY POINT! :)

As slow as I type, you certainly had plenty of chance to get there first. :D

God loves everyone, and forgives all. If the child molestor truly repents his sins, he shall find forgiveness. God loves the molestor, the athiest, and even you. God does not reject unbelievers.

They reject Him.

Again, with that you're either asserting God is not almighty or not righteous.

God loves everyone, and forgives all. If the child molestor truly repents his sins, he shall find forgiveness. God loves the molestor, the athiest, and even you. God does not reject unbelievers.
Then I see no need why I should live the way he (and his church) wants it. I can spit on christianity and then simply regret it after my death, getting free entrance to heaven without doing anything for it.

Then I see no need why I should live the way he (and his church) wants it. I can spit on christianity and then simply regret it after my death, getting free entrance to heaven without doing anything for it.
It's not about regret, it's about repentance. Forgiving is a one-way street, from the harmed to the harmer. Repentance is a two-way street, accepting that you are forgiven. Are you saying you will, in the final moment, finally accept God and admit your existence is a sin?

Then I see no need why I should live the way he (and his church) wants it. I can spit on christianity and then simply regret it after my death, getting free entrance to heaven without doing anything for it.
Which of His churches to do you refer to? They're all the one and only Right Way, and they all assert that you'll burn in hell for going with any of the others. :headbang:

simply regret it after my death,.
And then it will be too late. ;)

Again, with that you're either asserting God is not almighty or not righteous.
How do you figure that?

It's not about regret, it's about repentance. Forgiving is a one-way street, from the harmed to the harmer. Repentance is a two-way street, accepting that you are forgiven. Are you saying you will, in the final moment, finally accept God and admit your existence is a sin?
Whoa, hold up there; if a sinner's very existence is a sin, then the only way for a sinner to be saved is to not exist! Given as all branches of Christianity assert a life after death (in Heaven or Hell), that would make salvation impossible. :p

And then it will be too late
Why? Would I burn in hell for the rest of eternity in this case? I thought that God is merciful?
Besides, I used to be a German protestant. These guys don't believe that there is any kind of hell and that everybody is going to heaven. So, I can spit on them and still escape damnation. :p

Are you saying you will, in the final moment, finally accept God and admit your existence is a sin?
Yeah, I would. And also I would say that he has to let me pass the gates quickly, because it's really boring to wait in the front garden and that I don't want to miss the party.

Oooh, now we're getting into murky waters; are you referring to the Authorized King James Version as "accurate," or what? Accuracy is relative, and factuality is all to often in the eye of the beholder - especially in regards to Bible studies.
we would be in murky waters if thats all it was

they put words in that dont exist in the "originals"

not unlike that "the book" translation of the bible that was popular a few years back (maybe it still is, i wouldnt know) they took incredible liberties in some sections putting things in that just dont exist in the bible.

Why? Would I burn in hell for the rest of eternity in this case? I thought that God is merciful?

He is. He has extended enternal salvation to us all...but not everyone chooses to accept it.

Besides, I used to be a German protestant. These guys don't believe that there is any kind of hell and that everybody is going to heaven. So, I can spit on them and still escape damnation. :p
You're free to try it, but I wouldn't advise it.

Whoa, hold up there; if a sinner's very existence is a sin, then the only way for a sinner to be saved is to not exist! Given as all branches of Christianity assert a life after death (in Heaven or Hell), that would make salvation impossible. :p
That's where the forgiving plays in.

We are all born sinners because of the "original sin" which is passed down the line. There is no one human alive who is not a sinner and requires salvation, in the Christian tradition.

That's where the forgiving plays in.

We are all born sinners because of the "original sin" which is passed down the line.
So could one say "original sin" is genetic? That means I could GE sin out of my descendants! Wooo!!! Coordinators . . . ;)

We are all born sinners because of the "original sin" which is passed down the line. There is no one human alive who is not a sinner and requires salvation, in the Christian tradition
I couldn't do anything to stop Eve from being a bitch, so it wasn't my fault and furtermore I don't feel guilty at all. You can only be blamed for something you've done yourself, not for something your ancestors did.

So could one say "original sin" is genetic? That means I could GE sin out of my descendants! Wooo!!! Coordinators . . . ;)
Haha. Well, not really... sin and salvation are about the spirit, which is immaterial.

I couldn't do anything to stop Eve from being a bitch, so it wasn't my fault and furtermore I don't feel guilty at all. You can only be blamed for something you've done yourself, not for something your ancestors did.
In other words, you do not, and probably would not even on your deathbed, accept God's forgivance. Not even a regret will save you. So you see... it's not him keeping you out of heaven. ;-)

I couldn't do anything to stop Eve from being a bitch, so it wasn't my fault and furtermore I don't feel guilty at all. You can only be blamed for something you've done yourself, not for something your ancestors did.

A fact that seems lost on some christians. Or on their god.

In other words, you do not, and probably would not even on your deathbed, accept God. Not even a regret will save you. So you see... it's not him keeping you out of heaven. ;-)

So let me get this straight: You're willing to accept a god that's INSANE enough to make sin HEREDITARY?

How do you figure that?

If you say he wants to save those that "don't accept him" but can't, he's not almighty. If it's the inverse, and he doesn't WANT to save those that, having led a good life, don't "accept him", he's not righteous. Simple, simple, simple.

So let me get this straight: You're willing to accept a god that's INSANE enough to make sin HEREDITARY?
Spirit is not hereditary. The spirit/soul is unique to each individual human. We do not inherit the sin of Adam and Eve; we are sinners because they chose existence "of the flesh" over the innocent bliss of pure spirit in the Garden of Eden. We live in the same world they chose.

For the record, though, I am not a Christian.

Spirit is not hereditary. The spirit/soul is unique to each individual human. We do not inherit the sin of Adam and Eve; we are sinners because they chose existence "of the flesh" over the innocent bliss of pure spirit in the Garden of Eden. We live in the same world they chose.

For the record, though, I am not a Christian.

But it's STILL insanity to bestow fault upon a person because of where she was born.

But it's STILL insanity to bestow fault upon a person because of where she was born.
Yes, it's not like we have a choice; we are conscious beings living in the phsyical world. But the religion isn't about the physical world, it's about the spiritual one that is "superimposed", if you like, on our physical existence. The spiritual world is subjective.

I couldn't do anything to stop Eve from being a bitch, so it wasn't my fault and furtermore I don't feel guilty at all. You can only be blamed for something you've done yourself, not for something your ancestors did.

Actually, this should go something like "I couldn't help it if Eve had too many brains." This is a case of forbidden knowledge. God is punishing them for going against his orders and getting educated.

In Greek mythology, at least the bringer of forbidden knowledge was a hero, even though Prometheus didn't escape punishment. I have difficulty with a religion that portrays the bringer of knowledge as evil or harmful to mankind. Whether you blame Satan or Eve, Christianity doesn't give them credit due as Greek mythology does Prometheus. To the Greeks he was a hero for going up against the gods for mans sake.

If you say he wants to save those that "don't accept him" but can't, he's not almighty. If it's the inverse, and he doesn't WANT to save those that, having led a good life, don't "accept him", he's not righteous. Simple, simple, simple.
Simple it is, my friend -- simply wrong. God wishes to save all -- He gave up His only Son to do just that. He is not at fault if not everyone chooses to accept His salvation.

If you ask me, Satan was a hero too because he had the balls to call a totalitary, omni-present regime in question.
(Although he got punished too. Very bad thing if your enemy is almighty and invincible.)

Simple it is, my friend -- simply wrong. God wishes to save all -- He gave up His only Son to do just that. He is not at fault if not everyone chooses to accept His salvation.
There can be no freedom if cou can only choose between heaven and obedience on the one and eternal damnation on the other side.

I'm an occultist. I study the very foundations of reality itself. I know there are christians and there are idiotic people that actually believe that God is vain enough to love a child-molester who believes in him but not an atheist that does social work. These second idiots call themselves christians as well, so I'll add quotation marks to their names for the sake of identification. So... Come get me, "christians". I DARE your petty, vain, idiotic evil excuse for a god to come and get me. I do not believe a god vain enough to allow a child molester into heaven just because said molester believes him, and I will not ever. The truly Christian God would be terribly disappointed to know what you "christians" have been saying in his name, so, again, I dare you to send your "God-that-hates-everyone-that's-not-Christian" after me. Come get me, punks.

We are all born spiritually dead. You, me, Hitler, St. Paul. The true message of Christianity, the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ for our sins, washes us clean and gives us new, everlasting life. We cannot earn this through social work. We cannot earn salvation through ANY work. We can only trust in God.

Is this vanity? No. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I am just as perverse as a child molester, just as sinful as a murderer. If we weren't sinners, we wouldn't need salvation. You've just cornered yourself into a Catch-22 where those who need salvation are too impure to receive it, while those who are pure don't need it in the first place. God doesn't work like that. He loves mankind and wants everyone to come to faith.

Simple it is, my friend -- simply wrong. God wishes to save all -- He gave up His only Son to do just that. He is not at fault if not everyone chooses to accept His salvation.

Well, then he's not almighty.

It just doesn't fit into my mind:
Why am I blamed for something I never did?

There can be no freedom if cou can only choose between heaven and obedience on the one and eternal damnation on the other side.

There can be no freedom if one is eternally dead. That's why Christ set us free.

Well, then he's not almighty.
Might makes right? Does having power equate to using it?

Yes, it's not like we have a choice; we are conscious beings living in the phsyical world. But the religion isn't about the physical world, it's about the spiritual one that is "superimposed", if you like, on our physical existence. The spiritual world is subjective.

And we arrive at my point! The so-called Christians believe that the fact that we have no choice and the fact that an omnipotent god is that vain are acceptable things. I don't and neither, seemingly, do you. Of course, I don't believe said fact to begin with, but I state that if it were true, it would be unacceptable.

That's why Christ set us free
Even free to doubt him?

We are all born spiritually dead. You, me, Hitler, St. Paul. The true message of Christianity, the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ for our sins, washes us clean and gives us new, everlasting life. We cannot earn this through social work. We cannot earn salvation through ANY work. We can only trust in God.

Is this vanity? No. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I am just as perverse as a child molester, just as sinful as a murderer. If we weren't sinners, we wouldn't need salvation. You've just cornered yourself into a Catch-22 where those who need salvation are too impure to receive it, while those who are pure don't need it in the first place. God doesn't work like that. He loves mankind and wants everyone to come to faith.

Well, YOU may be as perverse as a child molester and as sinful as a murderer - which explains why pseudo-christianism is one of the religions with least self-esteem. Yes we CAN earn this through social work, unless God is not righteous or not almighty. Your argument can't hold water unless you cancel the almighty or the righteous. So. which will it be?

We seem to have gotten away from one issue within this mess of an argument that I've always been very curious about. That, if the pseudo-Christians end up being correct, I and Heikoku are going to Hell is no big deal (to me at least). I mean, it'll sucks, it's not particularly accepting on God's part, but at least we had a chance to educate ourselves on the issues and make a choice.

But what about all those who never had that chance, the more or less selfless, decent, kind people going to Hell for no better reason than that they never even had the chance to consider turning to Jesus for their sins? The question was brushed off a few pages ago with the excuse that, in a technical sense, they were never innocent (original sin and all that). Someone also brought up the Grand Commission.

But that doesn't really answer the question. The fact is, Grand Commission or no, there are innumerable human beings in the past 2000 years who never had any conceivable chance to hear this offer of salvation. Are they going to Hell simply because they had the bad luck to be born in, say, Central Africa in the 7th century? What's the deal?

If you ask me, Satan was a hero too because he had the balls to call a totalitary, omni-present regime in question.
(Although he got punished too. Very bad thing if your enemy is almighty and invincible.)


There can be no freedom if cou can only choose between heaven and obedience on the one and eternal damnation on the other side.

Aaah, there's the old serve in heaven or reign in hell bit. I'd think anyone with any spine would chose the latter.

BTW, ever read Stephen Brust's "To reign in Hell?" It's supposed to be Satans side of the story. Pretty funny.

we would be in murky waters if thats all it was

they put words in that dont exist in the "originals"

not unlike that "the book" translation of the bible that was popular a few years back (maybe it still is, i wouldnt know) they took incredible liberties in some sections putting things in that just dont exist in the bible.
So what version are you referring to as accurate? Of course, the best way to study the Bible is just to learn Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, but not all Christians have the time on their hands (or the interest) to do that.

Well, then he's not almighty.
Wrong.

That's where the forgiving plays in.

We are all born sinners because of the "original sin" which is passed down the line. There is no one human alive who is not a sinner and requires salvation, in the Christian tradition.

I realize what the post I was responding to meant; I was parodying a mis-written sentence, nothing more.

Wrong.

So he's choosing to condemn good people to an eternity of suffering?

A child molester may have done some terrible things, but that does not excuse God not loving them. Loves sinner, hate sin. If the two were inseperable we would all be dead as the wages of sin are death. They are now seprable thanks to Jesus's death. And I am unsure where you get the idea that God hate's everyone who isnt Christian from. If you think he sends us to hell then thats a mistake. We go to hell if we are not saved. He does not send us there. To put it another way, if when climing on a wall we will fall off unless we hold the wall. God is not pushing off those who do not believe in him. He is saving those who do. Hell was not created for Humans, but for the Devil to be punished

Hypocrite, loves the sinner and hates the sin. Non-belief is a sin. Thats like me saying I love Christian values but hate Christians.

So he's choosing to condemn good people to an eternity of suffering?
They condemn themselves.

Wrong.
Please, don't degenerate this arguement into "Wrong!Wrong!Wrong!" I'd think you had the sense to leave that mode of offense in third grade where it belongs.

Please, don't degenerate this arguement into "Wrong!Wrong!Wrong!" I'd think you had the sense to leave that mode of offense in third grade where it belongs.
Wrong! :p

I hate God.

Aaah, there's the old serve in heaven or reign in hell bit. I'd think anyone with any spine would chose the latter.

Not to threadjack or anything, but I'm not sure I agree.

I mean given (and it's a pretty damn big given) an objectively good, loving, benevolent etc. etc. force, even if it's also controlling and secretive, it's a bit dodgy, in my books at least, to try to tear it all down because someone isn't paying you enough attention. Violent rebellion being inherently negative even without the objective good to contend with.

BTW, ever read Stephen Brust's "To reign in Hell?" It's supposed to be Satans side of the story. Pretty funny.

Haven't read it. A take I've always liked on the issue is Mark Twain's "Letters from Earth". And "Paradise Lost" is pretty kickin' as well.

It just doesn't fit into my mind:
Why am I blamed for something I never did?
Mythologically, the symbolism of the story of Adam and Eve is a story of the birth of consciousness:

"If, however, the myth is understood symbolically --not as an incontrovertible statement about human nature but as an expression of humanity's own experience of itself at the moment of initiation into consciousness --then the meaning changes totally. To bite into the knowledge of good and evil is then to be separated for ever from the state of unconscious unity in which all life is one. Suddenly there are two things, two terms: I and you, I and them, I and it. Division polarizes; discrimination --this is not that --brings with it evaluation: this is better than that; this is good, this is not good (evil). The experience of opposites results in conflict because either both are wanted and only one can be had, or only one is wanted and both are there. Now life comes with death, now pleasure comes with pain, joy with sorrow; or the self comes without the other, the man without the woman, spirit without nature, and the human being without the divine being."

We are not blamed by God, except as a story element; spiritually, we blame ourselves, because we are no longer a part of the unity of life. We are not like the other life-forms on this planet. We, mankind, because of our faculty of consciousness, have placed ourselves apart from nature and at odds with nature. Natural means "made by or in nature"; artificial means "man-made". Nature is "subdued" by man, controlled, beaten back and conquered. God exists in every fibre of nature (to use a metaphor), he is the life-force, and the matter and energy, and the forces that bind the universe together.

They condemn themselves.

And God chooses not to forgive them their short-sightedness?

I hate God.
He still loves you.

He still loves you.

Is it acceptable to torture people one loves?

...

edit: Is it acceptable to torture people whom one loves and who also don't want to be tortured?

But it's STILL insanity to bestow fault upon a person because of where she was born.

God does not bestow fault upon anyone because of where they were born. There is no original sin. Eating of the fruit was not a sin. Little children who are not babtized don't go to hell. This is all incorrect Christian dogma that does not come from the words of Christ. If the dogma can't be connected directly back to the words of Christ it is probably incorrect. The story of Adam and Eve is allegory. Symbolic to the core. Think about it much larger terms than just two people in a garden. The following comes from the Baha'i Faith.


We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings.

We will explain one of them, and we will say: Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions.

The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of *124* bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.

The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary [1] was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity -- that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.
[1 Bahá'u'lláh.]

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 123)

Actually, this should go something like "I couldn't help it if Eve had too many brains." This is a case of forbidden knowledge. God is punishing them for going against his orders and getting educated.

In Greek mythology, at least the bringer of forbidden knowledge was a hero, even though Prometheus didn't escape punishment. I have difficulty with a religion that portrays the bringer of knowledge as evil or harmful to mankind. Whether you blame Satan or Eve, Christianity doesn't give them credit due as Greek mythology does Prometheus. To the Greeks he was a hero for going up against the gods for mans sake.


Wow. I was hoping to make it at least one more page before I stepped in and got involved in this original sin tangent we have going here, but I guess I'll have to start now.

Does nobody understand the greater truth behind the story of the Fall? Does nobody even ask the most important question?

Well, here: WHY, if eating of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was such a BAD THING, did God put the tree IN THE MOST ACCESSIBLE PLACE IN THE GARDEN? Why didn't God just bury it in some far-away, unreachable corner?

Answer: choice. Humanity has the gift of reason, the freedom to choose actions be they right or wrong. God put that tree there to acknowledge that He had, at last, created a being that should rightly be free to choose its own path, even if that path might lead it away from God.

What happened when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree? They gained the knowledge of Good and Evil.

But what does that mean for them, exactly?

Made in God's image, Adam and Eve already had knowledge of Good, because in God there is only to be found that which is Good. Thus, in eating of the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil, Adam and Eve did not gain the knowledge of Good - they already had it - and instead gained only the knowledge of Evil.

And because in that moment Evil was made a part of them, then in that moment they ceased to be beings of Good only, and so were set apart from God. That's all original sin really is, people - an allegory. It's not genetic, it is just an acknowledgement that we can and will give in to the temptation of sin, and doing so sets us apart from God.

But we can take heart, for God was greatly saddened by this seperation and so sent His only Son, Jesus, to redeem us to God.

We pull away, we turn against...and God, in mercy and love, follows after us, sacrifices Himself and suffers unto mortal death for us, so that He might not lose us to our own weakness and pride.

:) Aiera

And we arrive at my point! The so-called Christians believe that the fact that we have no choice and the fact that an omnipotent god is that vain are acceptable things. I don't and neither, seemingly, do you. Of course, I don't believe said fact to begin with, but I state that if it were true, it would be unacceptable.

No, no, no, no!

By our own sinful actions (and if anyone here can claim that they have never done something wrong in their life, they are clearly fooling themself) we are made seperate from God, and in the person and sacrifice of Jesus, God gently calls us back to him.

It is our choice to listen or not. Goodness me, God loves that we have the freedom to choose between Good and Evil. See my previous post - God encourages it.

:) Aiera

Also...

BTW, Vetmor, I'm still waiting for you to tell me which of my responses were, as you say, 'dumb'!

Hurry up!
:) Aiera

It is our choice to listen or not. Goodness me, God loves that we have the freedom to choose between Good and Evil
Then he has no right to punish us for choosing Evil.

No, no, no, no!

By our own sinful actions (and if anyone here can claim that they have never done something wrong in their life, they are clearly fooling themself) we are made seperate from God, and in the person and sacrifice of Jesus, God gently calls us back to him.

It is our choice to listen or not. Goodness me, God loves that we have the freedom to choose between Good and Evil. See my previous post - God encourages it.

:) Aiera

Aaaand my point! As you said, ACTIONS. Not being born, not believing in God. ACTIONS are what should matter.

No, no, no, no!

By our own sinful actions (and if anyone here can claim that they have never done something wrong in their life, they are clearly fooling themself) we are made seperate from God, and in the person and sacrifice of Jesus, God gently calls us back to him.

It is our choice to listen or not. Goodness me, God loves that we have the freedom to choose between Good and Evil. See my previous post - God encourages it.


This is why I've always liked the idea of Purgatory as a compromise between the extremes of Heaven and Hell. It gives God the ability to differentiate between out and out evil (unrepentant child molesters being the example being used in this thread), and day-to-day sin stemming from human blindness, stuborness, carelessness, and so on. It means the God can leave us to make a choice, and not punish to extremes those who screw it up :)

Then he has no right to punish us for choosing Evil.

Nor does God punish us for choosing Evil. But the choice of Evil sets us apart from God, and until such time as we forsake that Evil, we cannot be with God. In life, that is of less concern, but if in death we are still in that state of "apartness" then we are in real trouble.

Much the same way as if I move to Europe from my home in Canada. I am apart from my friends and family, and cannot be present with them until such time as I return from accross the Atlantic Ocean.

:) Aiera

Aaaand my point! As you said, ACTIONS. Not being born, not believing in God. ACTIONS are what should matter.

You missed the fullness of my statement, friend, for I also said God calls us back from our sinful ways, a call we must choose to heed.

Both faith and action determine salvation. Think back to the wedding metaphor:

Faith = Invitation
Action = Attire

:) Aiera

Nor does God punish us for choosing Evil. But the choice of Evil sets us apart from God, and until such time as we forsake that Evil, we cannot be with God. In life, that is of less concern, but if in death we are still in that state of "apartness" then we are in real trouble.
So, why doesn't he just say to people who were bad in life:
"See guys, this is heaven, and I will only let the faithful and the toadies get in. Go and find another place to spare your time."
Why does he has to punish them by letting them burn in hell? That's no freedom of choice, that's more the "Go the way I want you to go or you're really fucked up."-thing.

God loves everyone IMO. Like the way a parent loves their son/daughter, even he/she becomes a thief/murderer/something. Though they may turn him/her in for his crimes, it doesn't mean that they get any measure of pleasure out of it and they still love him/her. Any Christian who tells you God doesn't love a certain group of people is on crack. In fact any Christian who tells you a certain group is going to Hell is on crack because they don't judge. Only God does and this is repeated millions of time throughout the Bible. Unfortunately, some choose to have selective reading. :mad:

There are good Christians out there. Unfortunately, that usually means they are meek and not outspoken about their faith, so the crack-head christians end up giving us a bad name. Oh well, Que sera, C'est la vie and all those other French sayings that make us feel better about a bad situation.

So, why doesn't he just say to people who were bad in life:
"See guys, this is heaven, and I will only let the faithful and the toadies get in. Go and find another place to spare your time."
Why does he has to punish them by letting them burn in hell? That's no freedom of choice, that's more the "Go the way I want you to go or you're really fucked up."-thing.

It may be that there is another place, a third place, for people to go in that eternity. Someone mentioned purgatory, for example - a state of neither the joy of Heaven, nor the suffering of Hell. Perhaps such a place exists.

We are given no information on that place, though, and all we have to go on speaks of Heaven and Hell. So we go with what we've got. Purgatory is not found anywhere in Scripture. If there is going to be any greater understanding on this, it will come at the moment of each of our deaths, and no sooner.

For what it's worth, I will concede that there might be something, since I doubt the wedding banquet is meant to happen in a vacuum. Like any other banquet hall, I'm sure we can remark that it probably sits in the middle of a town or city. Perhaps there is some other place to go, some other open door to be found, in the city. Or perhaps not. That is not for us to know in this mortal hour.

;) Aiera

It may be that there is another place, a third place, for people to go in that eternity. Someone mentioned purgatory, for example - a state of neither the joy of Heaven, nor the suffering of Hell. Perhaps such a place exists.

We are given no information on that place, though, and all we have to go on speaks of Heaven and Hell. So we go with what we've got. Purgatory is not found anywhere in Scripture. If there is going to be any greater understanding on this, it will come at the moment of each of our deaths, and no sooner.

For what it's worth, I will concede that there might be something, since I doubt the wedding banquet is meant to happen in a vacuum. Like any other banquet hall, I'm sure we can remark that it probably sits in the middle of a town or city. Perhaps there is some other place to go, some other open door to be found, in the city. Or perhaps not. That is not for us to know in this mortal hour.

;) Aiera

You just proved with your statement that faith doesn't mean blindness or exclusivity. I am honored to have you as a discussion partner.

It may be that there is another place, a third place, for people to go in that eternity. Someone mentioned purgatory, for example - a state of neither the joy of Heaven, nor the suffering of Hell. Perhaps such a place exists.

I must always think about a demon vampire comic character when I hear the word "purgatory".^^

For what it's worth, I will concede that there might be something, since I doubt the wedding banquet is meant to happen in a vacuum. Like any other banquet hall, I'm sure we can remark that it probably sits in the middle of a town or city. Perhaps there is some other place to go, some other open door to be found, in the city. Or perhaps not. That is not for us to know in this mortal hour.

That would mean that you can't even say if there is a heaven or a hell. Christianity isn't the only religion ever existed. Maybe there is a reincarnation, or an Asgard, or something else which isn't mentioned in Christian mythology? You can't tell me that you never thought about that.

Anyway, I am happy that your are not speaking this "you will burn in hell for your infidelity"-language. :)

I must always think about a demon vampire comic character when I hear the word "purgatory".^^


That would mean that you can't even say if there is a heaven or a hell. Christianity isn't the only religion ever existed. Maybe there is a reincarnation, or an Asgard, or something else which isn't mentioned in Christian mythology? You can't tell me that you never thought about that.

Anyway, I am happy that your are not speaking this "you will burn in hell for your infidelity"-language. :)

Cool, we could go like the D&D planes too! Can I go to the Elemental plane of Air when I die? Pretty please? :)

That would mean that you can't even say if there is a heaven or a hell. Christianity isn't the only religion ever existed. Maybe there is a reincarnation, or an Asgard, or something else which isn't mentioned in Christian mythology? You can't tell me that you never thought about that.

Heaven and Hell I can speak with and be quite certain about, since both are mentioned time and again in Scripture.

What is more, there is room left for interpretation in things like the wedding metaphor to assume that there may be other places. What I am less certain about, however, is whether those other places would match the raw joy that is to be in the Lord's presence.

But again, these are immortal concepts which we cannot hope to fully understand or reconcile in this temporary existence.

:D Aiera

Heaven and Hell I can speak with and be quite certain about, since both are mentioned time and again in Scripture.
But what if they are only metaphers, and used as such in the Scripture?

Cool, we could go like the D&D planes too! Can I go to the Elemental plane of Air when I die? Pretty please?
I dunno. Ask the Lord.^^

But what if they are only metaphers, and used as such in the Scripture?

Scriptural analysis requires a lot of discernment, it is true, but I think it comes down to this: assuming Jesus to be the Son of God (a necessary tenet of Christian faith, to which I ascribe) it becomes necessary to treat as fact both the existence of Christ and the teachings He makes as recorded in the Gospels.

As such, I say with certainty that there is a Heaven and Hell, for Jesus speaks of these places repeatedly. It is as the core of my being to speak as such.

:) Aiera

Scriptural analysis requires a lot of discernment, it is true, but I think it comes down to this: assuming Jesus to be the Son of God (a necessary tenet of Christian faith, to which I ascribe) it becomes necessary to treat as fact both the existence of Christ and the teachings He makes as recorded in the Gospels.

As such, I say with certainty that there is a Heaven and Hell, for Jesus speaks of these places repeatedly. It is as the core of my being to speak as such.

:) Aiera

See, it's what I said about you being great to discuss with: I have no problem with the idea that there's Heaven and Hell - I only have with the idea that there's ONLY Heaven and Hell and that anyone that believes otherwise is going to the second.

See, it's what I said about you being great to discuss with: I have no problem with the idea that there's Heaven and Hell - I only have with the idea that there's ONLY Heaven and Hell and that anyone that believes otherwise is going to the second.

Indeed. In return, though, I hope you keep an open mind and consider fully what I say of such 'other' places. It may be that they do exist...and it may be that they do not exist. In which case, not going to the happy one is a very bad thing indeed.

;) Aiera

Indeed. In return, though, I hope you keep an open mind and consider fully what I say of such 'other' places. It may be that they do exist...and it may be that they do not exist. In which case, not going to the happy one is a very bad thing indeed.

;) Aiera

True, but, then, it may be that the Christian place does not exist. Either ways, I prefer to assume that everything exists. I'd love to visit Asgard, I like thermal springs.