NationStates Jolt Archive

Can you tell me where these quotes come from:

And they who believe on God and his Apostles, and make no difference between them--these! we will bestow on them their reward at last. God is Gracius, Merciful!

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

There is only one eternal law:
Hate never destroys hate; only love does.

God has created us all human, and all countries of the world are parts of the same globe.

By Me, Unmanifest in form,
This whole universe was spun:
In Me subsist all beings,
I do not subsist in them.

Can you tell me where these quotes come from:

And they who believe on God and his Apostles, and make no difference between them--these! we will bestow on them their reward at last. God is Gracius, Merciful!

The Koran

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

The Bible

There is only one eternal law:
Hate never destroys hate; only love does.

The Dham-mapada

God has created us all human, and all countries of the world are parts of the same globe.

Bahá'í

By Me, Unmanifest in form,
This whole universe was spun:
In Me subsist all beings,
I do not subsist in them.

Jnaneshvari

I :fluffle: Google :p

The Koran



The Bible



The Dham-mapada



Bahá'í



Jnaneshvari

I :fluffle: Google :p

awesome. i eat google out, when she lets me.

There is only one eternal law:
Hate never destroys hate; only love does.
nice one.

Um, I don't have a good background in the Dham-mapada or others, but I think you are misrepresenting the Bible and Koran *just a little* there.

A more apt selection might be...

(from the Koran)


When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a
great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters.
...
For the Infidels we have got ready chains and collars and flaming fire.
...
And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with
God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait
for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe
prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is
Gracious, Merciful.
...
They desire that ye should be infidels as they are infidels, and that ye
should be alike. Take therefore none of them for friends, till they have fled
their homes for the cause of God. If they turn back, then seize them, and
slay them wherever ye find them.
...
Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of
it God's.

(and from the Bible)

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with [=beside] me: I
kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that
can deliver out of my hand.

For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on
judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward
them that hate me.

I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall
devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the
captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.


I would have to say that the Bible is somewhat better in that regard. Both promise hell to the infidels but only the Koran repeatedly instructs believers to kill, behead, enslave, burn, rape, and chase away infidels. Still, not exactly the religions of mercy, peace and brotherhood.

I do wonder what exactly Muslims mean when they say Allah is "all-merciful" or when they wish you "peace". Must be an *entirely different* idea of mercy and peace.

Um, I don't have a good background in the Dham-mapada or others, but I think you are misrepresenting the Bible and Koran *just a little* there.

A more apt selection might be...

(from the Koran)



(and from the Bible)

I would have to say that the Bible is somewhat better in that regard. Both promise hell to the infidels but only the Koran repeatedly instructs believers to kill, behead, enslave, burn, rape, and chase away infidels. Still, not exactly the religions of mercy, peace and brotherhood.

I do wonder what exactly Muslims mean when they say Allah is "all-merciful" or when they wish you "peace". Must be an *entirely different* idea of mercy and peace.

On the bright side muslims never ran an inquisition :D

Um, I don't have a good background in the Dham-mapada or others, but I think you are misrepresenting the Bible and Koran *just a little* there.

A more apt selection might be...

(from the Koran)



(and from the Bible)

I would have to say that the Bible is somewhat better in that regard. Both promise hell to the infidels but only the Koran repeatedly instructs believers to kill, behead, enslave, burn, rape, and chase away infidels. Still, not exactly the religions of mercy, peace and brotherhood.

I do wonder what exactly Muslims mean when they say Allah is "all-merciful" or when they wish you "peace". Must be an *entirely different* idea of mercy and peace.

Both are nationalistic tools designed by man to justify death and murder.

When killing they can fall on one of these "inspired" books to justify the slaughter.

On the bright side muslims never ran an inquisition :D

Not true: they did, it was called the Al-Minha or "Divine Dispensation". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Hanbal) and killed a lot of people they considered apostates (mostly Sufis).

In the present, it hardly seems to be necessary since *all of society* fulfills the same function... consider the Afghanistan Taliban, or many other muslim societies such as Algeria, "a country where a woman wearing lipstick could result in an entire family, elderly women and children included, having their throats cut." (http://frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9000)

If that is not Inquisition, what is?

You may want to watch this movie or at least read the reviews http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001IXTDG/

Not true: they did, it was called the Al-Minha or "Divine Dispensation". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Hanbal) and killed a lot of people they considered apostates (mostly Sufis).

In the present, it hardly seems to be necessary since *all of society* fulfills the same function... consider the Afghanistan Taliban, or many other muslim societies such as Algeria, "a country where a woman wearing lipstick could result in an entire family, elderly women and children included, having their throats cut." (http://frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9000)

If that is not Inquisition, what is?

You may want to watch this movie or at least read the reviews http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001IXTDG/
Thank you for pointing that out. And if you think about it, regimes like Saudi have been running a Muslim inquisition for many years, with their disallowing of proselytizing from other religions, and their harsh punishments in those cases.

Um, I don't have a good background in the Dham-mapada or others, but I think you are misrepresenting the Bible and Koran *just a little* there.

A more apt selection might be...

(from the Koran)



(and from the Bible)

I would have to say that the Bible is somewhat better in that regard. Both promise hell to the infidels but only the Koran repeatedly instructs believers to kill, behead, enslave, burn, rape, and chase away infidels. Still, not exactly the religions of mercy, peace and brotherhood.

I do wonder what exactly Muslims mean when they say Allah is "all-merciful" or when they wish you "peace". Must be an *entirely different* idea of mercy and peace.

Could you please send the reference for your quotes. I did a search and couldn't find those quotes in the Qur'an. Following are two that better represent the teaching of Muhammed.


Verily, we will take vengeance on the sinners!

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 32 - Adoration)

God pardons bygones; but whoso returns, God will take vengeance on him, for God is mighty and the avenger.

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 5 - The Table)

Could you please send the reference for your quotes. I did a search and couldn't find those quotes in the Qur'an. Following are two that better represent the teaching of Muhammed.

GoodThoughts: Certainly, I can provide references. I'm using the J. M. Rodwell translation, dated 2001, which is available through the Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext01/koran10.txt).

9:5 and 47:4 are probably the most famous "verses of the sword". Also most of Sura 8, from which I only picked a couple verses.

Beware of abrogated verses (mansukh) and abrogating verses (nasikh). In cases of contradiction it is conisdered that later verses completely cancel earlier ones. A lot of the relatively moderate verses in early suras (2.256, 4:95-96, etc) are so cancelled by 9:5, for example.


(Sura 47 - Mohammed, verse 4)
When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a
great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters.

(Sura 9 - Immunity, verse 5)
And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with
God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait
for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe
prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is
Gracious, Merciful.

(Sura 8 - Spoils, verse 39)
Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of
it God's.

(Sura 8 - Spoils, verse 12)
When thy Lord spake unto the angels, "I will be with you: therefore stablish
ye the faithful. I will cast a dread into the hearts of the infidels." Strike
off their heads then, and strike off from them every finger-tip.

(Sura 8 - Spoils, verse 60)
Make ready then against them [infidels] what force ye can, and strong squadrons whereby
ye may strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy, and into others
beside them whom ye know not, but whom God knoweth.

(Sura 76 - Man, verse 5)
For the Infidels we have got ready chains and collars and flaming fire.

(Sura 4 - Women, verse 95)
They desire that ye should be infidels as they are infidels, and that ye
should be alike. Take therefore none of them for friends, till they have fled
their homes for the cause of God. If they turn back, then seize them, and
slay them wherever ye find them



(Note: the 4:95 verse is shown as an example of an early "moderate" verse, it merely commands expelling the infidels, and only killing them if they try to return. It is of course abrogated by 8:12, 9:5, and so forth.)

Other verses that are worth a look: 9:73, 17:16-17, 21:11-15, 48:29.

I am not sure what you mean when you say your examples "better represent" Islam. Could you clarify? In particular, do you mean that they only advocate taking revenge for an actual wrongdoing or transgression?

GoodThoughts: Certainly, I can provide references. I'm using the J. M. Rodwell translation, dated 2001, which is available through the Gutenberg Project (http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext01/koran10.txt).

9:5 and 47:4 are probably the most famous "verses of the sword". Also most of Sura 8, from which I only picked a couple verses.

Beware of abrogated verses (mansukh) and abrogating verses (nasikh). In cases of contradiction it is conisdered that later verses completely cancel earlier ones. A lot of the relatively moderate verses in early suras (2.256, 4:95-96, etc) are so cancelled by 9:5, for example.


(Sura 47 - Mohammed, verse 4)
When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a
great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters.

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 47)


(Sura 9 - Immunity, verse 5)
And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with
God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait
for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe
prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is
Gracious, Merciful.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 9)


(Sura 8 - Spoils, verse 39)
Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of
it God's.

(Sura 8 - Spoils, verse 12)
When thy Lord spake unto the angels, "I will be with you: therefore stablish
ye the faithful. I will cast a dread into the hearts of the infidels." Strike
off their heads then, and strike off from them every finger-tip.

(Sura 8 - Spoils, verse 60)
Make ready then against them [infidels] what force ye can, and strong squadrons whereby
ye may strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy, and into others
beside them whom ye know not, but whom God knoweth.

(Sura 76 - Man, verse 5)
For the Infidels we have got ready chains and collars and flaming fire.

(Sura 4 - Women, verse 95)
They desire that ye should be infidels as they are infidels, and that ye
should be alike. Take therefore none of them for friends, till they have fled
their homes for the cause of God. If they turn back, then seize them, and
slay them wherever ye find them



(Note: the 4:95 verse is shown as an example of an early "moderate" verse, it merely commands expelling the infidels, and only killing them if they try to return. It is of course abrogated by 8:12, 9:5, and so forth.)

Other verses that are worth a look: 9:73, 17:16-17, 21:11-15, 48:29.

I am not sure what you mean when you say your examples "better represent" Islam. Could you clarify? In particular, do you mean that they only advocate taking revenge for an actual wrongdoing or transgression?

I put two quotes from another translation of the Holy Book the Qur'an just to show the differences of meanings some subtle others not so subtle. Rodwell is considered, I have been told, a good translation in its day, but there are better ones now in existance. It is important to under stand the times and culture of age in which Muhammed revealed the Qur'an. The following is from the introduction to Rodwell's translation.

"But to return to our own view of the case. Our difficulty in appreciating the
style of the Koran even moderately is, of course, increased if, instead of
the original, we have a translation before us. But one is happy to be able to
say that Rodwell's rendering is one of the best that have as yet been
produced. "

I share the following with you as a member of the Bahai Faith that has lost thousands of co-religionist to the fanatical elements of Islam. The Islam that is protrayed by that actions of the fanatics is not the religion of Muhammed anymore than the Christians who commit horroble crimes in the name of Christ really represent the teachings of Christ.

A common criticism from western people has been that Muhammed was violent and bloodthristy, that Islam only grew because it put to the sword those who stood it's way. During the life of Muhammed He took only defensive actions to protect Himself and His followers. It was a very violent world that Muhammed and Islam came into. Islam would eventually grow into a Civilization that would far outstrip the west. Proof of who Muhammed is is found in His words and the Civilization that grew up around His teachings after He departed this world. Islam and Christianity are in their purest form and essense one religion. Christ and Muhammed spoke with one voice.

I am quite certain that this will not convince you that all of the Divinely Revealed religions have come from God. They have been corrupted by humanity and then God sends a new Messenger to revive God's religion again. It happens from age to age and it has happened again with the coming of Baha'u'llah.

I put two quotes from another translation of the Holy Book the Qur'an just to show the differences of meanings some subtle others not so subtle. Rodwell is considered, I have been told, a good translation in its day, but there are better ones now in existance.

I looked up some of the different translations, here is a comparison (from a Sunni perspective) http://www.islam101.com/quran/transAnalysis.htm

In general, there seem to be translations done by western scholars (such as Rodwell), muslim scholars (such as Yusuf Ali), and non-mainstream sects (Rashad Khalifa).

I am not so sure that the muslim translations are the best, partly because of their inclination to portray things in a better light than they really are. Conversely, the western translations have a tendency to portray things as worse than they really are. I think what the text *literally says* is closer to the typical western translation, but the way it is *commonly understood by muslims* is closer to the typical muslim translation.

Of the western translations, perhaps Arberry's is among the best, and Rodwell is about average.

Of the muslim translations, Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Muhammad Asad, and Ahmed Ali stand out, with Yusuf Ali being the most popular but not necessarily best.

However, there is no truly literal translation.

I share the following with you as a member of the Bahai Faith that has lost thousands of co-religionist to the fanatical elements of Islam.

I'm somewhat surprised at this, do you mean that people convert from Baha'i to (extreme) Islam?

Unfortunately, the fanatical elements are the mainstream. Most muslims would consider you to be an apostate, and therefore worse than an unbeliever. The Koran says you should be killed. Most will not kill you themselves, but they wouldn't have a big problem if someone else did it. Hard to have a debate about religion in those circumstances, is it not?

I think the biggest failing of Islam is that the moderates are so poor at restraining the extremists.

The Islam that is protrayed by that actions of the fanatics is not the religion of Muhammed anymore than the Christians who commit horroble crimes in the name of Christ really represent the teachings of Christ.

I'm not sure that is a fair argument. I tend to be very skeptical whenever anyone says "... but they are not *true* Muslims/Christians/whatever". Certainly "they" would say the same of you? A religion is whatever *all* of its followers say it is, including the good, bad and ugly. As long as there is a clear descendance of them from the same source, they are all a part of the same religion.

A common criticism from western people has been that Muhammed was violent and bloodthristy, that Islam only grew because it put to the sword those who stood it's way.

He was, and it did - take this from someone whose people have been suffering forced conversions to Islam for about five centuries. However, that is not particularly remarkable, the exact same criticism applies to Christianity.

To be fair, Muslims *were* remarkably tolerant towards people of certain other religions who lived amongst them, during a portion of their history (Jews in Constantinople, for example). At the same time they were utterly barbaric towards anyone outside (Ottomans in Europe, Arabs in Sudan, etc).

Islam would eventually grow into a Civilization that would far outstrip the west.

When? ;)

Not to be flippant, but I don't see much evidence of Islam growing. Ijtihad is considered heresy, a huge step back which happened a long time ago and from which Islam has never recovered in my opinion. Taqleed is about as bad for growth as you can get. Progressives in Islam are killed or threatened with death. The only "growth" occurs when a state takes control of the religion, as in Turkey.

Islam and Christianity are in their purest form and essense one religion. Christ and Muhammed spoke with one voice.

And I'm sure there are many people on both sides who would like to kill you for saying that.

I am quite certain that this will not convince you that all of the Divinely Revealed religions have come from God. They have been corrupted by humanity and then God sends a new Messenger to revive God's religion again. It happens from age to age and it has happened again with the coming of Baha'u'llah.

No, you will certainly not convince me but I appreciate the sporting effort. I think most major religious traditions contain at least some truly admirable currents - perhaps the Sufis in Islam, and the Puritans and Gnostics in Christianity. They also contain the barbaric, and the downright evil. The majority of adherents are somewhere in between ;)

However, "by their fruits you shall know them". How well are predominantly-Islamic countries doing today, compared with predominantly-Christian ones? Would you not say that Christianity has largely transformed itself into a religion consistent with modern humanism, while Islam has to date utterly failed to do so?

Can you tell me where these quotes come from:

And they who believe on God and his Apostles, and make no difference between them--these! we will bestow on them their reward at last. God is Gracius, Merciful!

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

There is only one eternal law:
Hate never destroys hate; only love does.

God has created us all human, and all countries of the world are parts of the same globe.

By Me, Unmanifest in form,
This whole universe was spun:
In Me subsist all beings,
I do not subsist in them.
Umm...the Satanic Bible?