NationStates Jolt Archive

(Inspired by a great book suggestion)

Socialists, Communists, And other Big Governement advocates...

How would this work with people like me? Doesn't policy require (as is historically validated) killing me since I oppose The State??
I'm not trying to be sensationalist, think it through.
I think these plans sound great inwriting, btw. This is always that nagging question for me.

as long as you pay your taxes the system should run smoothly in a European style socialist society. Communism is a different matter since all the real world examples of communism have incited rebellion by stripping away everyone's civil rights

(Inspired by a great book suggestion)

Socialists, Communists, And other Big Governement advocates...

How would this work with people like me? Doesn't policy require (as is historically validated) killing me since I oppose The State??
I'm not trying to be sensationalist, think it through.
I think these plans sound great inwriting, btw. This is always that nagging question for me.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. There are many socialist countries that don't advocate killing anyone at all, let alone those who oppose the government.

And just because some examples involved killing opposition (a fairly common thread throughout history in any form of government, BTW), it doesn't mean the theory is unworkable.

Um, I'm a communist and I oppose the state too.

as long as you pay your taxes the system should run smoothly in a European style socialist society.
France is running smoothly?

Um, I'm a communist and I oppose the state too.

Ditto.

France is running smoothly?
i haven't heard of any libertarian insurrections in Europe. instead there are protests for more socialism - less work hours, unemployment benefits, etc. Of course you may argue that the stalling Economy in W Europe is due to socialism, but that is another debate altogether. Back to Eichen's original point - the State isn't killing anyone because small government advocates are not disrupting European stability.

France is running smoothly?
That's the enormous elephant in the room these days in Europe. :p

(Inspired by a great book suggestion)

Socialists, Communists, And other Big Governement advocates...

How would this work with people like me? Doesn't policy require (as is historically validated) killing me since I oppose The State??
I'm not trying to be sensationalist, think it through.
I think these plans sound great inwriting, btw. This is always that nagging question for me.



Well, to be quite honest, I don't see why the government would want to kill you.


Unless you were directly opposing it in a serious way (rebel/terrorist/etc), that wouldn't need to kill you. And if you were opposing the government in a small way (not paying taxes/stealing/capitalism), off to rehab/prison with you.

i haven't heard of any libertarian insurrections in Europe. instead there are protests for more socialism - less work hours, unemployment benefits, etc. Of course you may argue that the stalling Economy in W Europe is due to socialism, but that is another debate altogether. Back to Eichen's original point - the State isn't killing anyone because small government advocates are not disrupting European stability.
What about Germany and Italy?

And if you were opposing the government in a small way (not paying taxes/stealing/capitalism), off to rehab/prison with you.
Thanks for the ammo 4 my arsenal. Priceless.

What about Germany and Italy?
What about them? In Germany there are frequent protests in the streets against the Schroeder government's capitalist reforms - tax cuts, limiting unemployment benefits, and such. I don't see why a socialistic nation like Germany would need to execute its citizenry who have paid their taxes and obeyed the laws. Italy has probably the most pro-business government in Europe now, with the merging of government and corporate interests and decriminalization of fraud. The protests and rioting are by socialists and not by libertarians.

It sure is awesome how theres no such thing as tax evasion in the US.

If Communism were to achieve its aim, there'd be no centralized government structure big or small for you to complain about. So what's yer beef?

If Communism were to achieve its aim, there'd be no centralized government structure big or small for you to complain about. So what's yer beef?
Ahhhhh, those were the days. :p

Thanks for the ammo 4 my arsenal. Priceless.
Well I don't think this attempt to portray libertarians as martyrs is very effective, because big government supporters do not feel guilt about throwing tax evaders in jail or some other punishment like fines. Perhaps the talk of imprisonment and punishment by socialists can stir up the audience when you preach to the choir, but to socialists, tax evaders would simply be lawbreakers.

Well I don't think this attempt to portray libertarians as martyrs is very effective, because big government supporters do not feel guilt about throwing tax evaders in jail
Is this a typo, or did you mean to say that? :confused:

Is this a typo, or did you mean to say that? :confused:
I'd assume it's true, because fines and imprisonment are punishment for tax evasion in Europe, and even here in America where many people are allergic to tax.

Under George W. Bush, the US government is the biggest it's ever been.

I'd assume it's true, because fines and imprisonment are punishment for tax evasion in Europe, and even here in America where many people are allergic to tax.
You've stumped me. I just can't think of a way to debate your Libertarians=Big Gov argument.

Under George W. Bush, the US government is the biggest it's ever been.

Ssshh, you'll wake up the prone, sleeping body of the willfully naive Republican Bush apologists...!

You've stumped me. I just can't think of a way to debate your Libertarians=Big Gov argument.
I never said libertarians = big government. You originally asked how a big government society can tolerate libertarians, so I answered that libertarians can gripe all they want about government but as long as they obey the law and don't engage in violent acts socialist governments are not going to go after them.

I never said libertarians = big government. You originally asked how a big government society can tolerate libertarians, so I answered that libertarians can gripe all they want about government but as long as they obey the law and don't engage in violent acts socialist governments are not going to go after them.
I get you now. I pulled the only conclusion I could from your post.
You've read too many of mine, I wasn't referring to libertarianism in any way.
Some of the most "socialist" countries are the most libertarian, by far.

I'm referring to the purest definition of the political philosophy.
I'd like to hear an ideological explaination for such an ideological philosophy.

Realpolitick.

"How would this work with people like me? Doesn't policy require (as is historically validated) killing me since I oppose The State??
I'm not trying to be sensationalist, think it through.
I think these plans sound great inwriting, btw. This is always that nagging question for me."

No, not really.. after a Communist revolution, we wouldn't let you get away with actually taking down the new forms of ownership and class rule we've set up, but you could bitch about it all you liked. Hell, socialist society needs dissent in order to function properly; Stalin taught us that, if nothing else.

And, even with the ability to speak your mind as much as you see fit you find it absolutely, positively intolerable.. I suspect the airports will still be open.

(Inspired by a great book suggestion)

Socialists, Communists, And other Big Governement advocates...

How would this work with people like me? Doesn't policy require (as is historically validated) killing me since I oppose The State??
I'm not trying to be sensationalist, think it through.
I think these plans sound great inwriting, btw. This is always that nagging question for me.


You would have to go to scandinavia and ask the people who live there and run the government about your question.

They are the only people qualified to answer, since they are the most successful socialists.

So successful in fact that their countries are ranked as the best in the world in which to live. Better than the US.

Well I don't think this attempt to portray libertarians as martyrs is very effective, because big government supporters do not feel guilt about throwing tax evaders in jail or some other punishment like fines. Perhaps the talk of imprisonment and punishment by socialists can stir up the audience when you preach to the choir, but to socialists, tax evaders would simply be lawbreakers.

That's what sickens me about socialism... the belief that people are OWED YOUR MONEY. If I'm rich and I don't want to pay, I get thrown in jail because i'm not willing to fund a thousand people's laziness.

hehe

Well the only western democracy I know of having the death penalty is the very capatilistic and small goverment USA:)
(Inspired by a great book suggestion)

Socialists, Communists, And other Big Governement advocates...

How would this work with people like me? Doesn't policy require (as is historically validated) killing me since I oppose The State??
I'm not trying to be sensationalist, think it through.
I think these plans sound great inwriting, btw. This is always that nagging question for me.

That's what sickens me about socialism... the belief that people are OWED YOUR MONEY. If I'm rich and I don't want to pay, I get thrown in jail because i'm not willing to fund a thousand people's laziness.

hehe

Yeah! And if I go and steal from a free hospital or school, I should be ALLOWED, since it is for the disadvantaged and therefore subhuman people, right?

Fooking socialists - next thing you know they'll be saying that helping others is a good thing.

Yeah! And if I go and steal from a free hospital or school, I should be ALLOWED, since it is for the disadvantaged and therefore subhuman people, right?

Fooking socialists - next thing you know they'll be saying that helping others is a good thing.

That wasn't the implication of his post. Besides, a lot of capitalists and small government advocates are alturistic - the only thing is, they want to choose to give money rather than have the government take it forcefully.

Why is it that so many people have the odd belief that Communism requires a state? It confuses me. Communism in itself requires anarchy, just like Capitalism. The only difference is the mind set of the people. Capitalism is individual greed - trying to make yourself as rich as possible; Communism is communal greed - trying to make your community as rich as possible.

Well the only western democracy I know of having the death penalty is the very capatilistic and small goverment USA:)
The US gov't is NOT small . . . and we're not capitalistic so much as corporatistic.

(this coming from a libertarian like myself)

Why is it that so many people have the odd belief that Communism requires a state? It confuses me. Communism in itself requires anarchy, just like Capitalism. The only difference is the mind set of the people. Capitalism is individual greed - trying to make yourself as rich as possible; Communism is communal greed - trying to make your community as rich as possible.

Neither communism or capitalism can possibly prevail without government. Sure, stateless communism would work if everyone felt that stealing, killing, kulak-style hoarding and the like were immoral, but they don't. If there was no government, there'd be nobody to force me to surrender my property except for other people, who I could just kill. After all, who's going to stop me if there's no government?

Capitalism also requires a "don't kill, don't steal" rule to be enforced. Otherwise, even capitalists would embark on a little "freelance socialism", and go force people to hand over their money.

Socialism and Communism came after the XIX century showed that pure capitalism alone was having disasterous effects on the society, due to the massive unbalance between the "upper", richer classes and the workers.
Basically it helps leveling the play field a bit and makes at least the very basic services available to everyone, if not free.
And before someone screams "Welfare = teh laziness" go and tell that to some underpaid labourer who does 12h per day just to pay the bills...
No flaming intended.

Socialism and Communism came after the XIX century showed that pure capitalism alone was having disasterous effects on the society, due to the massive unbalance between the "upper", richer classes and the workers.
Basically it helps leveling the play field a bit and makes at least the very basic services available to everyone, if not free.
And before someone screams "Welfare = teh laziness" go and tell that to some underpaid labourer who does 12h per day just to pay the bills...
No flaming intended.

Pure capitalism never existed in the 19th century. The Russian Revolution was not against a purely capitalist system. The Tsar's Russia was ruled by aristocracy, and involved almost as much social intervention and economic meddling as the USSR did afterwards.

Pure capitalism treats everyone equally under the law, with no special favors to anybody. There's a big difference between that and what the Tsar had running.

You would have to go to scandinavia and ask the people who live there and run the government about your question.

They are the only people qualified to answer, since they are the most successful socialists.

So successful in fact that their countries are ranked as the best in the world in which to live. Better than the US.

Hello all... Scandinavian reporting for duty! :-)

I don't really understand the original question of the first poster.. What does opposing the state mean? Does it just mean, I don't like the politics of party x, and they are in the government, therefore I oppose the state?

Anyhow, certainly in any Scandinavian country, you wouldn't be killed for opposing the state! That's ludicrous, maybe you should just campaign for your views, or join a group that you agree with? I don't know. But, yes, if you didn't pay your tax or perform other duties, you would be punished... but nothing too painful such as killing.

Anyhow, isn't your question relevant for any sort of state?

http://www.mysanthropicasylum.net/?l=room&rid=17

http://www.mysanthropicasylum.net/?l=room&rid=103

My personal opinions on the ideal government if anyone cares to read them...