NationStates Jolt Archive

The thought came up, those illegal aliens are bad, but not all bad. They contribute to our econemy somewhat by working in the fields doing cheap labor and opening up small business's. But they also get tons of free stuff and dont pay taxes and some steal social security and other illegal things in this country.

The BS thing is, the Mexican govt. has challenged Arizona to international court because Arizona voted not to give welfare, medicare and other services to illegal immigrants. I for one aplaud their effort and think it is discusting that the Mexican govt. is saying that we cant decide to do as a people. Its our country not yours!

It's time we put troops on the border and threw out the illegals! :mad:

It's time we put troops on the border and threw out the illegals! :mad:

My feelings exactly. Want to learn how to increase the amount of Americans who have jobs? Put them on the border with guns and tell them to shoot anything darker than the sand, as long as they arent wearing a US uniform that is.

My feelings exactly. Want to learn how to increase the amount of Americans who have jobs? Put them on the border with guns and tell them to shoot anything darker than the sand, as long as they arent wearing a US uniform that is.

Can they shoot eachother? That'd be fun. :D

My feelings exactly. Want to learn how to increase the amount of Americans who have jobs? Put them on the border with guns and tell them to shoot anything darker than the sand, as long as they arent wearing a US uniform that is.
I don't think you could quite shoot them until they tried to cross the border. Otherwise, you're just shooting people in another country that may or may not be doing anything.

On top of that, isn't that a bit extreme of a punishment?

Can they shoot eachother? That'd be fun. :D

No, because they know not to shoot anyone with the US uniforms. Besides with hundreds of Mexicans crossing each day they should be plenty occupied.

My feelings exactly. Want to learn how to increase the amount of Americans who have jobs? Put them on the border with guns and tell them to shoot anything darker than the sand, as long as they arent wearing a US uniform that is.
When most Americans talk about wanting jobs, they're not thinking of the same jobs most illegals work in.

Edit : And no one is going to stand on the border all day and shoot people.

I don't think you could quite shoot them until they tried to cross the border. Otherwise, you're just shooting people in another country that may or may not be doing anything.

On top of that, isn't that a bit extreme of a punishment?

No, you dont see us going down there and closing down their hospitals

You could just hide them in Lake Superior and noone would know.

Edit : And no one is going to stand on the border all day and shoot people.

Yes they will. Go down to those border states, they'll tell you how much they hate illegals.

No, because they know not to shoot anyone with the US uniforms. Besides with hundreds of Mexicans crossing each day they should be plenty occupied.

Oh. They'd have U.S. Uniforms? Too Bad. :( I thought it'd be, you know. Freelance. You could bring in the dead mexicans for a reward. Then there'd be some incentive to eliminate competition. I think it'd make for great television. :)

No, you dont see us going down there and closing down their hospitals

You could just hide them in Lake Superior and noone would know.
1) You've failed to address my first point.

2) What? I don't understand your first line at all.

Yes they will. Go down to those border states, they'll tell you how much they hate illegals.
I don't doubt that they don't like illegals. But it takes a pretty extreme amount of hatred to go to the point of murdering them.

I wouldn't mind a limited number of guestworkers entering the country with proper ID. It's good for the economies of poorer nations and by living here they take back an accurate impression of the USA. I'd like to see the number strictly limited so as not to lower the wages of citizens. I'd also like the INS to keep an eye on who is allowed in to prevent terrorists from entering.

1) You've failed to address my first point.

2) What? I don't understand your first line at all.

Well, Mexicans dont pay for their hospitle services, and so the hospitals get no money so they must close. Not that all Mexicans dont, but a lot of them dont have the money and the govt. wont pay for everything.

The illegal immegrants actually help the economy, and are doing jobs that no americans are willing to do. That being said, I still don't want them here. Just posting guards on the border isn't going to do anything. You can't kill a weed by just cutting off the head, you need to dig it out by the root. The problem is Mexico. The government is corrupt and life sucks down there. If we fix Mexico, the mexicans wont want to come to the US. Another solution is to put harsher penalties on illegals. All we do now is deport them back to mexico, then they just walk right back over the border. It's a very hard dilema, and won't be solved over night, or by rash decisions.

Well, Mexicans dont pay for their hospitle services, and so the hospitals get no money so they must close. Not that all Mexicans dont, but a lot of them dont have the money and the govt. wont pay for everything.
And that justifies murder of all illegal immigrants?
On top of that, you've again failed to address my first point.

Actually people, studies have found that illegal migrants actually contribute more to the economy than they cost. They do pay taxes an stuff. Hang on while I look for the report...


"There are great misperceptions that immigrants are a drain on our economy, but many studies have confirmed that the opposite is true. Even undocumented workers - commonly referred to as 'illegal' contribute more than their fair share to our great country." (Alan Greenspan Federal Reserve Board chairman, congressional testimony, July 2001.)

Alan Greenspan informed Congress that immigrants, including undocumented workers, in essence donate $27 billion to state and local economies. This is the difference between what they pay in taxes ($70 billion) and what they use in services ($43 billion). In Illinois alone, he testified, "Illegal workers pay $547 million in taxes yearly, compared to $238 million in services used." This is a net "profit" for Illinois of $309 million. This phenomenon is the norm, not the exception, in states where undocumented workers pay taxes. Indeed, rather than take money from, undocumented workers donate money to the American economy and thus to Americans.

A recent (February) study by the University of Illinois found that even as undocumented workers paid federal and state income taxes (one study pegs the amount of taxes paid at $90 billion per year), they did not claim the tax refunds for which they were eligible. These unclaimed refunds amount to the donation of billions of dollars to the public coffers.

Another study by the Urban Institute found that undocumented workers contribute $2.7 billion to Social Security and another $168 million to unemployment insurance taxes. Because of their legal status, these workers will not be able to access these programs even if they wanted to. These contributions amount to outright donations to the country's economy. In essence, undocumented workers are subsidizing, to a significant degree, American recipients of these benefits.

In addition to the above tax donations, undocumented workers pay billions of dollars in local and state sales taxes when they purchase appliances, furniture, clothes and other goods. The diatribists are also addicted to the falsehood that undocumented workers come here to get on welfare and utilize other government services.

The reality, as documented by the UI study, is that the overwhelming majority of undocumented workers "do not receive any assistance under government safety-net programs," a fact that was reinforced by Greenspan in his congressional testimony.

No matter how hard the hate-mongers try to distort things, "mooching" simply cannot be squeezed out of these realities. Yet another falsehood to which the poison-penners are addicted is that "them Mexicans" take away jobs from Americans. We don't need Greenspan for this one. This is easily refuted by a simple eyeball test. Drive by the fields where stoop labor in 12-hour shifts for less-than-minimum-wage pay is performed. You'll see no line of Americans clamoring to be hired. Nor is there a single instance of white folks suing growers for "reverse discrimination" for not allowing them the opportunity to be exploited shamelessly. Ditto for the other industries that exploit these workers, primarily by paying less than the minimum wage.

A recent U.S. Department of Labor study noted that the notion that immigrants take jobs away from American workers is "the most persistent fallacy about immigration in popular thought." The reality is that undocumented workers create jobs.

The UI study found that as a result of the immense spending by undocumented workers (their purchasing power in Illinois alone is $18.7 billion, according to Greenspan) and of the founding of small businesses by this group, they create jobs. In Chicago alone, undocumented workers generated 31,000 jobs in the local economy.

It is not all about money: Undocumented workers also bring to our society many things we claim to value, such as solid family structure. Studies show that children of immigrants are more likely to be raised in a two-parent household than are children of native-born Americans.

On another front: Thousands upon thousands of Mexicans crossed the border to volunteer to fight in World War II, Korea and Vietnam. Many of them were killed, wounded or maimed fighting under our flag and saving American lives. Where are the "moochers" in this bunch? In the American lexicon, "donating," "generating" and "paying" are antonyms of "draining" and "mooching." Among other things, the hate-mongers need to work on their vocabularies.

Source (
http://www.ailf.org/pubed/pe_articles_nw062102a.htm)

And that justifies murder of all illegal immigrants?
On top of that, you've again failed to address my first point.

What the hell was your first point anyway? I thought I did.

What the hell was your first point anyway? I thought I did.
I don't think you could quite shoot them until they tried to cross the border. Otherwise, you're just shooting people in another country that may or may not be doing anything.

How are you planning to justify shooting anything you see near the border?

what part of "ILLEGAL" isnt getting through?

Nay! Nay! Nay!

I think a 100 foot electrified fence all along the Rio Grande should do the trick. Then we can massively expand the border checkpoints we do allow, with enough agents to search everyone and do it quickly. Everyone wins. Except of course, the illegal immigrants. They lose. But that is what you get for breaking the law.

I have absolutely no problem with free movement between borders. Face it, you lazy American slobs don't want to go dig ditches in the hot Texas sun unless you make $22.50 per hour with full union benefits.

If the contractor can hire illegals to do it for $6 per hour without benefits except that one day's wage will feed their family back in Mexico for a month, that means my local taxes are lower. Everybody wins.

Let them in. We scream and piss and moan and bitch and whine about how the world needs to be free, but then we spit on people who come to our free land of opportunity so that they can give their poor families the freedom to eat.

Fuckin' hypocrites.

Let them come. Let them do the jobs nobody else here will do. Leave them to it. It's not hurting anyone.

Yea Yea Yea

Illegal imigration is not positive for any nation or the Illegal Imigrant.

Because they are illegal the person will avoid authorities, hence they are exploited in sweat shops, used as prostitutes or even criminal gangs using them for drug running and handling stolen goods (if they are caught who cares).

Immigrants should come through the propper legal channels for thir own protection.

A nation must be able to regulate who enters its borders.

Many people spend years going through the proper process to earn their citizenship here in the United States, and I see those people as my fellow Americans, just as those of us who were born here. Border-hoppers make a mockery of those people, and they should be hurled out of the country until they do it right.

I live on a border state.

And I realize that this is a NATION of immigrants. Saying that we Americans are better than others who wish to be American because we've lived here longer is kind of absurd.

I think most people here realize that immigrants are okay, you know why? Because quite a few of them are recent immigrants.

Oooh ... and one more thing ...

If you hate illegal immigrants so much, legalize all immigration! Then there will be no more "illegal" immigrants! Everybody wins!

Voice: That was stupid, Keru.
Me: Yeah, I know, it's about as stupid as "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" but if it can work for them, it can work for me.
Voice: That's not how the world works. If you're not an NRA dick-sucking Christian, then you have no voice in the US.
Me: What about all those Communists in the US who are running the government?
Voice: What Communists?
Me: You know ... the ones who regulate businesses by telling privately owned companies who they can and cannot sell to or trade with, or telling privately owned businesses who they can or cannot hire. Those same ones who are taking your privately earned money and are about to force you to invest it into "personal accounts" if you want to be able to eat something other than cat food when you're 65 but offer no guarantees on the success of the outcome.
Voice: You mean the Republicans?
Me: Yeah! That's them.
Voice: You said Communists.
Me: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
Voice: Got me there, Keru, but what you said was still stupid.
Me: I know, but if at least one person falls for it, I'll be happy.
Voice: Fair enough. Got any nachos?
Me: Yeah. Brb.

Many people spend years going through the proper process to earn their citizenship here in the United States, and I see those people as my fellow Americans, just as those of us who were born here. Border-hoppers make a mockery of those people, and they should be hurled out of the country until they do it right.

A voice of reason.

Nay, of course. All illegals should be booted out, and our borders should be significantly strengthened. Of course, legals are more than welcome to stay.

We should RFID the illegals we catch; eventually we will get the lot of them.

That or tattoo on their arm, in Spanish, "I tried to sneak into the USA, and all I got was this lousy tattoo."

http://www.vipirg.ca/images/logos/logo_no-one-illegal_big.gif

http://www.vipirg.ca/images/logos/logo_no-one-illegal_big.gif

A-fuckin'-men.

I don't care if they're here, as long as they pay taxes. Since I'm a libertarian, that doesn't say much.

I DONT HEVE LEGGS I HAVE FEELERS! *TWITCH TWITCH*

:confused: :gundge:

I don't care if they're here, as long as they pay taxes. Since I'm a libertarian, that doesn't say much.

:headbang: HA HA YOU WHERE JUST QUOTED :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

I have absolutely no problem with free movement between borders. Face it, you lazy American slobs don't want to go dig ditches in the hot Texas sun unless you make $22.50 per hour with full union benefits.

If the contractor can hire illegals to do it for $6 per hour without benefits except that one day's wage will feed their family back in Mexico for a month, that means my local taxes are lower. Everybody wins.

Let them in. We scream and piss and moan and bitch and whine about how the world needs to be free, but then we spit on people who come to our free land of opportunity so that they can give their poor families the freedom to eat.

Fuckin' hypocrites.

Let them come. Let them do the jobs nobody else here will do. Leave them to it. It's not hurting anyone.
I don't care if they come here to work, they just need to have some kind of ID. No breaking the law.

I don't care if they come here to work, they just need to have some kind of ID. No breaking the law.

What if they have, say, a Mexican driver's license?

I stand not by my country, but by people of the whole fucking world. No fences, no borders. Free movement for all. Fuck the border.

That pretty much sums up my position.

What if they have, say, a Mexican driver's license?
How about they get approved by the government of the country they're in? A Mexican driver's license does not put them in the U.S. database. I think they should fill out a work form, get some form of ID, and be allowed to work.

How about they get approved by the government of the country they're in? A Mexican driver's license does not put them in the U.S. database. I think they should fill out a work form, get some form of ID, and be allowed to work.

Okie dokie ... and what if that takes 8-12 weeks to obtain, but the man's family needs food yesterday and if he could just work for a couple of days, he could get needed nourishment to his children?

Okie dokie ... and what if that takes 8-12 weeks to obtain, but the man's family needs food yesterday and if he could just work for a couple of days, he could get needed nourishment to his children?
Well, I'm sure both men in those situations would be very sad.

I stand not by my country, but by people of the whole fucking world. No fences, no borders. Free movement for all. Fuck the border.

That pretty much sums up my position.

and it has a nice melody too

Oooh ... and one more thing ...

If you hate illegal immigrants so much, legalize all immigration! Then there will be no more "illegal" immigrants! Everybody wins!

Voice: That was stupid, Keru.
Me: Yeah, I know, it's about as stupid as "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" but if it can work for them, it can work for me.
Voice: That's not how the world works. If you're not an NRA dick-sucking Christian, then you have no voice in the US.
Me: What about all those Communists in the US who are running the government?
Voice: What Communists?
Me: You know ... the ones who regulate businesses by telling privately owned companies who they can and cannot sell to or trade with, or telling privately owned businesses who they can or cannot hire. Those same ones who are taking your privately earned money and are about to force you to invest it into "personal accounts" if you want to be able to eat something other than cat food when you're 65 but offer no guarantees on the success of the outcome.
Voice: You mean the Republicans?
Me: Yeah! That's them.
Voice: You said Communists.
Me: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
Voice: Got me there, Keru, but what you said was still stupid.
Me: I know, but if at least one person falls for it, I'll be happy.
Voice: Fair enough. Got any nachos?
Me: Yeah. Brb.


I don't think that's stupid. I think people should be able to go whever they want, without some stupid government telling them where they can and cannot live.

The only thing is, if they want to get government services, they should have to live there for a while and become a member of the community first. A bit like how if I move to california, I have to live and work there for a bit before I can get the instate tution rate for UC Davis law school.

Why is that a bad idea? Or do you think we should just live where the "man" tells us.

Illegal immigrants should be taken out of the country, but once the border is sealed by the US military, a guest worker program should be fine.

I wouldn't have a problem with them if they came through legal channels. But since you specified the illegal type, I'm going with, "T3h U54 4r3 t3h 3v1l w4rm0n63r5!!!!!!!!!111one"

:headbang: HA HA YOU WHERE JUST QUOTED :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

Off topic. Don't spam the thread.

One of the bigger problems with illegal immigration is that the immigrants are not all Mexican. Some of them are Arab and Chechen, and they've done suspicious things like steal crop dusters, which in today's climate is concerning.

There is a reason they are illegal. They don't give us anything the legal ones don't.

I have an uncle who lives in Arizona, and owns a ranch right on the border. He loses thousands of dollars worth of equipment and cattle every year thanks to the illegal immigrants who come across his land and trash things up. The worst part is that he cannot do anything to stop them under current laws.

I don't think that's stupid. I think people should be able to go whever they want, without some stupid government telling them where they can and cannot live.


So do I ... maybe you missed the point ... never mind.

I have an uncle who lives in Arizona, and owns a ranch right on the border. He loses thousands of dollars worth of equipment and cattle every year thanks to the illegal immigrants who come across his land and trash things up. The worst part is that he cannot do anything to stop them under current laws.

Mmm ... cry me a river. 85% of these people coming over barely have a roof over their heads and their children have limited education opportunities and will probably be forced to go to work as young as 10.

Your uncle's insurance probably covers any damage he incurs and he should think about those 10 year old migrant workers next time he's bedding down under a hole-less roof and a warm, fuzzy blanket with lots of nice, soft pillows.

Mmm ... cry me a river. 85% of these people coming over barely have a roof over their heads and their children have limited education opportunities and will probably be forced to go to work as young as 10.

Your uncle's insurance probably covers any damage he incurs and he should think about those 10 year old migrant workers next time he's bedding down under a hole-less roof and a warm, fuzzy blanket with lots of nice, soft pillows.

As a matter of fact, it doesn't. And I don't give two craps about illegal immigrants if all they do is kill cattle, destroy farm equipment, and steal jobs. If they want into the US, they can go through proper channels. Otherwise, they can fry in the desert for all I care.

As a matter of fact, it doesn't. And I don't give two craps about illegal immigrants if all they do is kill cattle, destroy farm equipment, and steal jobs. If they want into the US, they can go through proper channels. Otherwise, they can fry in the desert for all I care.

Good ol' American humanity at its finest! GWB would be proud. Oh no wait ... no he wouldn't ... while he was our governor, he relaxed border restrictions ... go figure.

Tell your uncle to buy some fuckin' insurance.

Good ol' American humanity at its finest! GWB would be proud. Oh no wait ... no he wouldn't ... while he was our governor, he relaxed border restrictions ... go figure.

Tell your uncle to buy some fuckin' insurance.

He has insurance. It just doesn't cover damages by illegal immigrants.

I feel that he should have a reasonable expectation for his property to not be destroyed or stolen.

Tell me, why do you have so much hate for my uncle, who you have never met, when all you know about him is that he owns a ranch and that he has his property regularly messed with by illegal immigrants?

I have no problem with immigrants coming to a country if they have genuine reason to leave their own country, if they are prepared to work and keep themselves in the new country and don't suppose they can impose their norms, values and beliefs on the inhabitants of their new country. By the latter statement, I don't mean that they should give up any of these beliefs - certainly not that. But a number of immigrants in the UK seem to expect everyone to do as they do, which I have a problem with (I have a problem with it in any context, whether a person is an immigrant or not!).

I disagree with illegal immigrants, as in many cases (though I accept not all) it gives money to arseholes involved in 'people rackets', who force the immigrants to work in prostitution and/or drug dealing etc. There are proper channels to get into a country if you have genuine reason for wanting to live there - I know it's a lot of red tape, but it gives you a right to live in said country, thus ensuring you won't be asked to leave like may be the case if it were found that you were illegal; it minimises dangers like people trafficking; it helps to protect the current citizens of the country in question.

Tell me, why do you have so much hate for my uncle, who you have never met, when all you know about him is that he owns a ranch and that he has his property regularly messed with by illegal immigrants?

I don't hate him, I simply cannot abide someone who's only saving grace is the sheer random luck of being born in a certain part of the world. That's it. Everything your uncle has ... everything ... is due 100% to where he was born. Nothing more, nothing less.

All his hard work means dick because if he would have been born just 100 miles south of where he is now, no amount of hard work would have paid off. He would be one of those people risking life and limb to find a better opportunity for himself and his family.

If he doesn't realize that, then I have zero sympathy for his "plight". Fact is, if you eat three times a day at your leisure, then you have absolutely no room to complain about anything on a global scale.

And I don't give two craps about illegal immigrants if all they do is kill cattle, destroy farm equipment, and steal jobs.

well, since that isn't what they do at all, there is nothing to worry about then.

I'm for illegal immagrints for a reason.....

I don't want to stand in 90 degree sun and pick strawberries or dig a ditch. Also, I would be a hippocrite seeing as my great-great-grandfather entered this country illegally as a stowaway from sicily many years ago, and then proceeded to take whatever job he could to feed himself and send money home to bring his younger brother, wife, and sister in law over here because there was no money in Sicily to bring them here.

I have an uncle who lives in Arizona, and owns a ranch right on the border. He loses thousands of dollars worth of equipment and cattle every year thanks to the illegal immigrants who come across his land and trash things up. The worst part is that he cannot do anything to stop them under current laws.
He could set up a lemonade stand on the route they use most. That would help offset the damage they make.

He could set up a lemonade stand on the route they use most. That would help offset the damage they make.

or he could buy the land on the other side of the border and dig a tunnel across. then he could charge a toll for using it. actually, that's not a bad idea. except for the toll part. hmmm...

There are proper channels to get into a country if you have genuine reason for wanting to live there - I know it's a lot of red tape, but it gives you a right to live in said country, thus ensuring you won't be asked to leave like may be the case if it were found that you were illegal; it minimises dangers like people trafficking; it helps to protect the current citizens of the country in question.
It's not only a lot of red tape, it's also a lot of money (often non-refundable if you don't get accepted), low chance of being accepted, and perhaps years before you get an answer.

If the process was faster and cheaper for immigrant prospects, I think you would see a reduction of illegal immigration, even if chances aren't much better but you can afford to apply repeatedly.

You would never be able to eliminate it completely, most people are escaping extreme poverty and as long as it exists they will keep crossing borders.

Mmm ... cry me a river. 85% of these people coming over barely have a roof over their heads and their children have limited education opportunities and will probably be forced to go to work as young as 10.
Cry me a river. Is it America's fault their country is such a shithole? No. They have as many natural resources as we do, if anyone is to blame it's the Spanish. But even then, much of the blame rests with them.

Your uncle's insurance probably covers any damage he incurs and he should think about those 10 year old migrant workers next time he's bedding down under a hole-less roof and a warm, fuzzy blanket with lots of nice, soft pillows.
Maybe next time you log into the internet at $40 a month on your $2000 computer, you can think about how hypocritical you're being when you tell someone to count their blessings. What have you ever done for the 10 year old migrant workers? I would guess a fat lot of nothing. Go troll elsewhere.

Cry me a river. Is it America's fault their country is such a shithole? No. They have as many natural resources as we do, if anyone is to blame it's the Spanish. But even then, much of the blame rests with them.


Maybe next time you log into the internet at $40 a month on your $2000 computer, you can think about how hypocritical you're being when you tell someone to count their blessings. What have you ever done for the 10 year old migrant workers? I would guess a fat lot of nothing. Go troll elsewhere.
Very nice. I couldn't agree more, though I'd add that the current Mexican government has a rather racist predjudice against the mestizos who are the ones trying to cross the border. Vincente Fox doesn't look anything like the guy mowing your lawn for a very good reason...he doesn't share anything except citizenship with him.