NationStates Jolt Archive

So, I know there have been a few discussion of this before, but it just got brought up in a class, and I am curious as to how everyone views this.

Some of us believe that gender shouldn't be an issue, one way or another, especially not to the government. However, there are many who believe otherwise. My question is this: how do we define gender? Do we use phenotype? As such, how do we treat people of ambiguous phenotype? Do we use genotype? As such, how do we treat people with an anomolous genotype?

While were at it could we also define phenotype and genotype?

While were at it could we also define phenotype and genotype?

Sorry - phenotype refers to physical features. In this case, it would be the presence of a penis or vagina, breasts or no breasts, facial hair or no facial hair, etc.

Genotype would refer to the person's genes - are they XY, XX, XXY, XYY, XO, etc.

[I]Several ladies gather around in a dress shop, Maria at center, Anita holds hand mirror.
[music settles into verse]
Maria:
I feel pretty
Oh so pretty
So pretty and witty and bright
And I pity
Any girl who isn't me tonight.

Thanks, I always used to think that a female bore the young, but with seahorses it is the male that gives birth. So either that's the exception to the rule or the definition is more complex than that.

"Why bother? Why should there be a classification at all?"
gets my vote.

If we just totally stopped identifying people by gender or race, how will people figure out who they hate or allow to marry?

Nay.. There has to be some kind of classification. Not everybody is that open minded to be a disexual. uhhh.. it's late. I couldn't think of the word. :p

Bisexual.. yeah.. Hahah.

We should use chromosomes - XY or XX. A person is not a woman or a man just because they had a sex change opperation.

Oh who honestly cares any more? Let people be whatever they want to be. Whil I was eating lunch the other day I was reading a hilarious story in my wife's brain-off magazine about "a lesbian couple" raising their daughter. But what was interesting about them was they both used to be men. That's right, they'd both had sex changes and then fell in love.

Now that's just gender confusion gone too far. I blame fluoride and mobile phones.

Using chromosomes to define gender makes no sense, as it is not information that is readily available.

"So what gender are you?"
"Hang on a sec, I have the test results right here."

We should use chromosomes - XY or XX. A person is not a woman or a man just because they had a sex change opperation.

How do we classify XXY? Or XYY? Or XO?

Interesting factoid: a woman with Turner's syndrome (XO) may have a large portion of her cells as XY. However, since most of the cells are XO, she presents a basically female phenotype until she hits puberty. How would you classify her?

How do we classify XXY? Or XYY? Or XO?

Interesting factoid: a woman with Turner's syndrome (XO) may have a large portion of her cells as XY. However, since most of the cells are XO, she presents a basically female phenotype until she hits puberty. How would you classify her?

A very sick woman.

P.S.
Men are female at early stage pregancy thats why we have nipples but later on it is our chromosomes that make us into males, same with women.

Oh who honestly cares any more? Let people be whatever they want to be. Whil I was eating lunch the other day I was reading a hilarious story in my wife's brain-off magazine about "a lesbian couple" raising their daughter. But what was interesting about them was they both used to be men. That's right, they'd both had sex changes and then fell in love.

Now that's just gender confusion gone too far. I blame fluoride and mobile phones.
Hey, I prefer women, and I'm transsexual.
:mad:

A very sick woman.

P.S.
Men are female at early stage pregancy thats why we have nipples but later on it is our chromosomes that make us into males, same with women.

Actually, many women with Turner's syndrome have undescended testis. They have *male* body parts. Is she still a woman, then?

Who care? The government shouldn't classify people; and everyone else should just go whatever the person wants. Using chromosomes has problems, as people have pointed out. Phenotype as the same problems, when one considers intersexed individuals. So either don't worry about it, or just go with whatever the person wants.

Actually, many women with Turner's syndrome have undescended testis. They have *male* body parts. Is she still a woman, then?

No, female. A very sick woman.
It is kind of like a sex change opperation, it does not make you into a man or woman depanding on your gender.

No, female. A very sick woman.
It is kind of like a sex change opperation, it does not make you into a man or woman depanding on your gender.

So, even though you *say* we should use chromosomes, you will define someone who is actually, both chromosomally and phenotypically an underdeveloped man as a woman just because that's what they *mostly* look like?

Why does it matter what gender a person is?

not sure about gender dependence on biology, but it is interesting that in the uk and like-minded societies, sexuality is (societally anyway) determined by gender, whereas in Greece and parts of the Mediterranean, gender is determined by sexuality.

No, female. A very sick woman.
It is kind of like a sex change opperation, it does not make you into a man or woman depanding on your gender.

My boyfriend's 11 yr old daughter was born with Turner's. She is not sick. She however will not get much taller than she is now.

Do the research and expand your mind. Eduacation is a good thing.

My boyfriend's 11 yr old daughter was born with Turner's. She is not sick. She however will not get much taller than she is now.

Do the research and expand your mind. Eduacation is a good thing.

Have they checked her for undescended testis? I'm sure they have if she has been diagnosed, but if they haven't, they need to.

I'm missing a psychology/sociology option in the poll.
Gender, in a certain sense, is a social role people play. In some cultures they distinguish more than two genders.

If you're just asking how to determine biological sex, than I'd have to go with phenotype and/or genotype. Of course not all people needly fit in those categories. (As stated, you can have XXY, XYY and XO on the genotype side, and among others hermaphrodites on the phenotype side)

So, even though you *say* we should use chromosomes, you will define someone who is actually, both chromosomally and phenotypically an underdeveloped man as a woman just because that's what they *mostly* look like?

yep that's what he says, wanna know why? Because, like most nationstaters about most topics, he's talking out of his ass about something he isn't in the least bit informed on just to show he has an opinion of his own

Well, as it's recognized in psychology, Gender is the chromosomal definition, whilst sex, on the other hand, is of the individuals opinion.

Well, as it's recognized in psychology, Gender is the chromosomal definition, whilst sex, on the other hand, is of the individuals opinion.
I thought it was the other way around...
Then again, I'm probably confused.

I thought it was the other way around...
Then again, I'm probably confused.
I got it mixed up on a test, and I'm pretty sure this is it.

I'm missing a psychology/sociology option in the poll.
Gender, in a certain sense, is a social role people play. In some cultures they distinguish more than two genders.

If you're just asking how to determine biological sex, than I'd have to go with phenotype and/or genotype. Of course not all people needly fit in those categories. (As stated, you can have XXY, XYY and XO on the genotype side, and among others hermaphrodites on the phenotype side)

The very fact that there is a difference is part of the problem. The government is trying to define gender based on biological sex or biological sex based on gender. Shouldn't they just get the hell out of it and treat everyone the same?

Well, as it's recognized in psychology, Gender is the chromosomal definition, whilst sex, on the other hand, is of the individuals opinion.Huh, strange, because the exact opposite was taught to me here during genderstudies..

The very fact that there is a difference is part of the problem. The government is trying to define gender based on biological sex or biological sex based on gender. Shouldn't they just get the hell out of it and treat everyone the same?I agree, the government has nothing to do with sex or gender, or sex (the act) for that matter ;)

A very sick woman.

P.S.
Men are female at early stage pregancy thats why we have nipples but later on it is our chromosomes that make us into males, same with women.
Of course. For the human race, female is the default setting. Which is why they're so awkward to be around. Think about it, you tend not to use things in their custom settings. If you're driving car you adjust the seat. You don't leave it in it's default position. Thus men are superior to women. :p [/sillyness]

My boyfriend's 11 yr old daughter was born with Turner's. She is not sick. She however will not get much taller than she is now.

Do the research and expand your mind. Eduacation is a good thing.

I am sorry to hear of the 11 year old girl. Truly, it's very sad.
The fact is she is ill. Why do you think that if people do not have a very good understanding of Turners they are not educated? Thats just silly.

So, even though you *say* we should use chromosomes, you will define someone who is actually, both chromosomally and phenotypically an underdeveloped man as a woman just because that's what they *mostly* look like?.

What I am saying is this,
A persons gender should be determined by the chromosomes.
If a person is ill and have Turners the majority of the chromosomes in that person should be considerd the gender of that person. If the majority is male than that person is male.
Like I said if a person has a sex change opperation eg. a man is changed to look like a woman it does not make him a woman. So no, its not what they look like that makes the fact and I never said that.

What I am saying is this,
A persons gender should be determined by the chromosomes.
If a person is ill and have Turners the majority of the chromosomes in that person should be considerd the gender of that person. If the majority is male than that person is male.
But you called someone with Turner's a woman, when they fit your description of male.
Like I said if a person has a sex change opperation eg. a man is changed to look like a woman it does not make him a woman. So no, its not what they look like that makes the fact and I never said that.
:rolleyes:
Wonderful. Now I get to be called a male still!

Well, as it's recognized in psychology, Gender is the chromosomal definition, whilst sex, on the other hand, is of the individuals opinion.
From Dictionary.com


en·der Audio pronunciation of "gender" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jndr)
n.

1. Grammar.
1. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.
2. One category of such a set.
3. The classification of a word or grammatical form in such a category.
4. The distinguishing form or forms used.
2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
3.
1. The condition of being female or male; sex.
2. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.


Usage Note: Traditionally, gender has been used primarily to refer to the grammatical categories of “masculine,” “feminine,” and “neuter,” but in recent years the word has become well established in its use to refer to sex-based categories, as in phrases such as gender gap and the politics of gender. This usage is supported by the practice of many anthropologists, who reserve sex for reference to biological categories, while using gender to refer to social or cultural categories. According to this rule, one would say The effectiveness of the medication appears to depend on the sex (not gender) of the patient, but In peasant societies, gender (not sex) roles are likely to be more clearly defined. This distinction is useful in principle, but it is by no means widely observed, and considerable variation in usage occurs at all levels.

Take that as you will


dictionary.com on sex

sex Audio pronunciation of "sex" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sks)
n.

1.
1. The property or quality by which organisms are classified as female or male on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions.
2. Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, of this classification.
2. Females or males considered as a group.
3. The condition or character of being female or male; the physiological, functional, and psychological differences that distinguish the female and the male. See Usage Note at gender.
4. The sexual urge or instinct as it manifests itself in behavior.
5. Sexual intercourse.
6. The genitals.



I think this boils down to the fact that people are still arguing over it.

Although it seems, upon a closer look, that andaluciae was wrong.

What I am saying is this,
A persons gender should be determined by the chromosomes.


What gender is a person who has XXY then? or XYY? or XO?

But you called someone with Turner's a woman, when they fit your description of male.

:rolleyes:
Wonderful. Now I get to be called a male still!

I must have made a mistake, sorry about that.

-snip-
I'm probably just confused. So, yeah.

I am sorry to hear of the 11 year old girl. Truly, it's very sad.
The fact is she is ill. Why do you think that if people do not have a very good understanding of Turners they are not educated? Thats just silly.

I dissagree. She is not 'ill.' Do the research.


What I am saying is this,
A persons gender should be determined by the chromosomes.
If a person is ill and have Turners the majority of the chromosomes in that person should be considerd the gender of that person. If the majority is male than that person is male.
Like I said if a person has a sex change opperation eg. a man is changed to look like a woman it does not make him a woman. So no, its not what they look like that makes the fact and I never said that.

Gender is not that simple. Again, do the research.

I must have made a mistake, sorry about that.
No, you didn't make a mistake in your post. You didn't refer to me.
What I meant is that you said gender should be defined through chomosomes.
That classifies me as male.
How fun.
:(

What gender is a person who has XXY then? or XYY? or XO?

It was my personal oppinion on how we should define gender.
My guess is that you do not agree with me i'm shore.


XXY Klinefelter's Syndrome
XXY Jacob's syndrome
XO If a sperm cell containing no sex chromosome fertilizes an egg, the resulting zygote will be XO or male.

I dissagree. She is not 'ill.' Do the research.




Gender is not that simple. Again, do the research.


Turners is an illness it does not mean that she is ill in the sence that she lies in bed or cant lead a normal life.

Turners is an illness it does not mean that she is ill in the sence that she lies in bed or cant lead a normal life.

Do you know what Turner's is?

Do you know what Turner's is?

Turner syndrome is a chromosomal condition that exclusively affects girls and women. It occurs when one of the two X chromosomes normally found in females is missing or incomplete. The syndrome is named after Dr. Henry Turner, who was among the first to describe its features in the 1930's.
Turner syndrome is caused by the complete or partial absence of one of the two X chromosomes normally found in women.
Turner syndrome is not associated with any environmental or any other factors generally associated with genetic problems. Despite many efforts, no real causes have been found to be linked to this condition. It appears to be a random event that can happen to anyone.
The most common characteristics of Turner syndrome include short stature and lack of ovarian development. A number of other physical features, such as webbed neck, arms that turn out slightly at the elbow, and a low hairline in the back of the head are sometimes seen in Turner syndrome patients. Individuals with Turner syndrome are also prone to cardiovascular problems, kidney and thyroid problems, skeletal disorders such as scoliosis (curvature of the spine) or dislocated hips, and hearing and ear disturbances.
Other problems associated with having Turner's... Heart problems, kidney problems or thyroid problems are the most frequent health problems that can occur. While they are usually not too serious, they do require good consistent medical care and management by a qualified sub-specialist. Not everyone has every problem associated with this condition.
Turner syndrome is among the most common chromosomal abnormalities, occurring in about 1 out of 2500 live female births. Approximately 60,000 girls and women are affected in the United States, with approximately 800 new cases being diagnosed each year.
There may be some differences in learning style that make verbal learning come more easily and math or spatial problems more difficult. Despite these challenges, women with Turner syndrome can lead productive successful lives in many different types of careers.

I have done my research.

Very good.

Now, research intersexed.

As you can see, gender is no longer a 'black & white' issue.

Asigning someone a gender is not that simple anymore, and perhaps, is actually outdated.

We are all human. This should be what is important. Not the gender of any one human being.

Peace,

~Caff

Why does it matter what gender a person is?

Because depending on what gender you are depends on how much you get paid?

Who care? The government shouldn't classify people; and everyone else should just go whatever the person wants. Using chromosomes has problems, as people have pointed out. Phenotype as the same problems, when one considers intersexed individuals. So either don't worry about it, or just go with whatever the person wants.

The government kind of has to classify people, e.g. criminals. . . You can't talk about building more prisons for the human race can you, (although some governments act like they are running a prison).

The government kind of has to classify people, e.g. criminals. . . You can't talk about building more prisons for the human race can you, (although some governments act like they are running a prison).
I believe Ataloro was referring to gender.

We are all human. This should be what is important. Not the gender of any one human being.So what do you look for in a life partner, if not gender/sex?

I believe Ataloro was referring to gender.

I thought he was referring to governments not classifying people.

Because depending on what gender you are depends on how much you get paid?
Thats going to get you into problems.

So, I know there have been a few discussion of this before, but it just got brought up in a class, and I am curious as to how everyone views this.

Some of us believe that gender shouldn't be an issue, one way or another, especially not to the government. However, there are many who believe otherwise. My question is this: how do we define gender? Do we use phenotype? As such, how do we treat people of ambiguous phenotype? Do we use genotype? As such, how do we treat people with an anomolous genotype?

The phenotype is dependent on genotype so it makes no sense to have them seperated.

i think people should be considered to be whatever gender they want to claim.

it IS important. its so important to some people that they will get sugery to change their gender. its so important to some people that they will dress exclusively in the most stereotypical of clothing of the opposite gender just so people will accept that that is their identity. its so important that the parents of intersexed children will agree with the doctors suggestion that they pick a gender for their child (surgically) rather than let the child be as s/he is.

but its such a personal thing that i have no problem with a "man" deciding that he was meant to be a "woman" and asking people to address him as such. thats his business and im happy to comply.

Because depending on what gender you are depends on how much you get paid?

Isn't that just a good reason for saying that the whole concept should be thrown out as unnecessary and prejudicial.

ill make this simple. If you have at least one Y chromosone you are a boy regardless the number of X chromosones you have (max 2 if you are born with a disease) and a girl has no Y chromosone

ill make this simple. If you have at least one Y chromosone you are a boy regardless the number of X chromosones you have (max 2 if you are born with a disease) and a girl has no Y chromosone
So, do you propose we refer to all people as whatever gender they fit chromosomally?
Transsexuals, me, for example, fight their whole lives to be identified as the gender of their choice. To define gender like this is to crush the hope of thousands.

Isn't that just a good reason for saying that the whole concept should be thrown out as unnecessary and prejudicial.

But femenists and womans rights groups would be a bit dissapointed if it was.

ill make this simple. If you have at least one Y chromosone you are a boy regardless the number of X chromosones you have (max 2 if you are born with a disease) and a girl has no Y chromosone

That could work as a definition of sex, but not of gender. In nearly all cultures, boats are female, i.e. gendered, (not sexed), but they have no chromosones at all.

So, do you propose we refer to all people as whatever gender they fit chromosomally?
Transsexuals, me, for example, fight their whole lives to be identified as the gender of their choice. To define gender like this is to crush the hope of thousands.

no such thing as a transsexual. If it is a hermaphodite then you go by their chrosomes. Most of the hermaphodites are genetically girls and prefer to be as such.

But femenists and womans rights groups would be a bit dissapointed if it was.

Why would they be? If we discarded the concept of gender, there could be no gender dicscrimination. OK they could be disappointed because they had achieved what they wanted and no longer had any purpose or goal, but that I do not think would be a serious problem for them.

no such thing as a transsexual.
What the heck?
You're talking to one right now.
Main Entry: trans·sex·u·al
Variant(s): also tran·sex·u·al /(")tran(t)s-'sek-sh(&-)w&l, -sh&l/
Function: noun
: a person who psychologically identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance (as by changing the external sex organs)
- trans·sex·u·al·ism also tran·sex·u·al·ism /-sh(&-)w&-"li-z&m, -sh&-"li-/ noun
- trans·sex·u·al·i·ty also tran·sex·u·al·i·ty /-"sek-sh&-'wa-l&-tE/ noun

Why would they be? If we discarded the concept of gender, there could be no gender dicscrimination. OK they could be disappointed because they had achieved what they wanted and no longer had any purpose or goal, but that I do not think would be a serious problem for them.

It would be a hard concept to get rid of unless all agreed. Wouldn't it just cover up any discrimination happening by disregarding the idea?

who cares?

to hell with gender roles.

who cares?

to hell with gender roles.
:fluffle:
Go Dakini!

It would be a hard concept to get rid of unless all agreed. Wouldn't it just cover up any discrimination happening by disregarding the idea?

That is the problem. By getting rid of the concept, I do mean really getting rid of it, not just ignoring it. A little bit like the way we managed to get rid of the concept that left handed people were the evil spawn of the devil. A concept that was widespread and accepted as the truth through centuries in Europe and America. (We still have remnants of this in the use of the word sinister, but few people realise this.)

ill make this simple. If you have at least one Y chromosone you are a boy regardless the number of X chromosones you have (max 2 if you are born with a disease) and a girl has no Y chromosone

What would be the gender then of a person who had 2 children, then later is was discovered that 'her' utereus was that of a 12 yr old, and that 'she' also had underdeveloped testes? Physically this person is 'boyish' in stature, yet had given birth to 2 children?

What would be the gender then of a person who had 2 children, then later is was discovered that 'her' utereus was that of a 12 yr old, and that 'she' also had underdeveloped testes? Physically this person is 'boyish' in stature, yet had given birth to 2 children?

That is called a hermaphodite. It depends on the chromosomes. Hermaphodites cant have children.

What would be the gender then of a person who had 2 children, then later is was discovered that 'her' utereus was that of a 12 yr old, and that 'she' also had underdeveloped testes? Physically this person is 'boyish' in stature, yet had given birth to 2 children?

to which Jibea replied:

That is called a hermaphodite. It depends on the chromosomes. Hermaphodites cant have children.

Summary: A person with two children is a hermaphrodite who can not have children.

Using the same logic I declare myself to be an Atheist God.

Using the same logic I declare myself to be an Atheist God.
Can I be Jesus Christ II?
Hrm, what would you suffix to "Jesus" to make it female?
:D

Can I be Jesus Christ II?
Hrm, what would you suffix to "Jesus" to make it female?
:D
Jesa

That is the problem. By getting rid of the concept, I do mean really getting rid of it, not just ignoring it. A little bit like the way we managed to get rid of the concept that left handed people were the evil spawn of the devil. A concept that was widespread and accepted as the truth through centuries in Europe and America. (We still have remnants of this in the use of the word sinister, but few people realise this.)

Gender is a more important aspect of your identity? Transexuals must have a reason besides wanting or not wanting a penis. . .

I guess it doesn't have to matter though. Any idea how they got rid of the idea that left handed people were evil?

Jesa
It could be Jessi!
Jessi Christ!

Can I be Jesus Christ II?
Hrm, what would you suffix to "Jesus" to make it female?
:D

By his logic yes, if you are not a christian one.

It could be Jessi!
Jessi Christ!
Jessi? No way. Jesa Christ is waaay better.

Gender is a more important aspect of your identity? Transexuals must have a reason besides wanting or not wanting a penis. . .

I guess it doesn't have to matter though. Any idea how they got rid of the idea that left handed people were evil?

The point is that it matters at the moment, but it really does not have to matter. It could be something that we are completely indifferent to.

As to how they got the idea that left handers were evil, not the faintest idea. Maybe a new thread is called for.

That could work as a definition of sex, but not of gender. In nearly all cultures, boats are female, i.e. gendered, (not sexed), but they have no chromosones at all.
This depends on the person discussing the boat. One girl in the sailing club a high school referred to the boat as a he.

A little bit like the way we managed to get rid of the concept that left handed people were the evil spawn of the devil.
Although we do tend to be smarter.

So what do you look for in a life partner, if not gender/sex?
lol, are you saying that when you are looking for a life partner you are looking for what they have between their legs? i choose my lovers based on who they are, not based on what parts they have; i fall in love with a PERSON, not with what they've got in their trousers.

and, to expand on Demi's excellent points, there are also individuals who have XY chromosomes in all their cells, but who are female in anatomy and appearance; this is because there is one gene locus, the SRY, that is important for determining sexual phenotype, and abnormal activation or inactivation of that locus will give a phenotype that doesn't match the genotype. to reiterate, their chromosomes are male, but they are anatomically indistinguishable from XX females.

shall we tell these girls and women that they are actually men because of a code hidden deep inside their cells? should we waste our time forcing people to conform to random societal gender roles based upon arbitrary genetic or anatomical characteristics? or should we simply admit that it doesn't bloody well matter? is there any reason, any at all, why we should be concerning ourselves with defining other people's gender? is there any reason we should deny people the right to love and be loved for something other than their genetalia?

ill make this simple. If you have at least one Y chromosone you are a boy regardless the number of X chromosones you have (max 2 if you are born with a disease) and a girl has no Y chromosone
tell that to Megan, a girl from my high school. she was a girl, no doubt about it, and a pretty one at that. she had totally normal parts for a girl, developed just like a girl, hit puberty just like a girl...and yet she was XY. she was in my GLBT group, and was very open about answering questions. she used to crack jokes about how she could never be sure if she was straight or gay because of the inconsistency in people's definitions of her sex; people like you would tell her she was a man, despite all evidence to the contrary, which would mean that she was gay because she was attracted to men, but she thought of herself as female (because she was anatomically female in every way) so that would mean she was heterosexual.

If you want to read some theory of the subject of gender and how it is/should be defined try this book:



It's called [U]Sexing the Body by Anne Fausto-Sterling.

This is the link for the book Sexing the Body by Anne Fausto-Sterling (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465077145/102-2639949-1082533)

I hope that worked this time.

tell that to Megan, a girl from my high school. she was a girl, no doubt about it, and a pretty one at that. she had totally normal parts for a girl, developed just like a girl, hit puberty just like a girl...and yet she was XY. she was in my GLBT group, and was very open about answering questions. she used to crack jokes about how she could never be sure if she was straight or gay because of the inconsistency in people's definitions of her sex; people like you would tell her she was a man, despite all evidence to the contrary, which would mean that she was gay because she was attracted to men, but she thought of herself as female (because she was anatomically female in every way) so that would mean she was heterosexual.

It starts out with a story of a person with similar genetics to your friend who didn't realize it until she was tested to "make sure" she was a woman for the Olympics/

lol, are you saying that when you are looking for a life partner you are looking for what they have between their legs? i choose my lovers based on who they are, not based on what parts they have; i fall in love with a PERSON, not with what they've got in their trousers.No, I'm not looking at what they have between their legs; I'm talking gender here, not sex, even though that does usually correspond.
So, not that it is any of my business, but does this mean you are bisexual? I mean, if gender and sex absolutely do not matter to you. Equal opportunity?

This may sound crude:

Boys have XY chromosomes.
Girls have XX chromosomes.
The rest = freak of nature. But I suppose checking their genitals would be the best way to define gender.

This is the link for the book Sexing the Body by Anne Fausto-Sterling (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465077145/102-2639949-1082533)

I hope that worked this time.
You could have simply edited your earlier post.

No, I'm not looking at what they have between their legs; I'm talking gender here, not sex, even though that does usually correspond.
So, not that it is any of my business, but does this mean you are bisexual? I mean, if gender and sex absolutely do not matter to you. Equal opportunity?

To fall or be in love with someone does not have to imply any form of sexual interaction whatsoever. A lover, however, is generally regarded as a sexual partner so the question stands in relation to lovers but not in relation to being in love.

My head is spinning now.

What's the argument? male is male, female is female and transsexuals really are just marginalised to the fringes of society. Its a system that works. Who gives a fuck about transgenders? They should shut up about their problems and get a penis . Stop boring us with your boasting that you have both things at once!
A) We don't have both things, at least not that I know of, and don't want to.
B) I give a fuck about us, and the rest of society should too. We exist, and we aren't getting equal rights.
C) Shut up about our problems? That is the attitude that drives hundreds of people to suicide.
"Just shut up and deal with it."
Yeah, sure.
:mad:

No, I'm not looking at what they have between their legs; I'm talking gender here, not sex, even though that does usually correspond.
So, not that it is any of my business, but does this mean you are bisexual? I mean, if gender and sex absolutely do not matter to you. Equal opportunity?
Why would it matter to you? I gave everyone a chance and it ends up I'm in love with a woman (I'm a man).

Go grow a penis and maybe we'll listen. No penis or pussy then no rights for you!
Err, huh?
Main Entry: trans·sex·u·al
Variant(s): also tran·sex·u·al /(")tran(t)s-'sek-sh(&-)w&l, -sh&l/
Function: noun
: a person who psychologically identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance (as by changing the external sex organs)
Transsexuals quite certainly have genitalia.
(ps Can we date?)
That was probably the absolute worst time anybody could have asked that.
:p

Why would it matter to you? I gave everyone a chance and it ends up I'm in love with a woman (I'm a man).It doesn't so much matter to me, but you might be surprised to know that some people will only ever fall in love with someone of an other gender. And I would find it odd if such a person would argue that gender doesn't matter, that's all.

To me gender does matter, definitely. I don't know in what degree I should 'blame' society for that though. Certainly there is some biological imperative to procreate, which should decree at least some interest in the opposite sex. But that'd needn't be exclusive (on the contrary, with all the over population it'd make sense to have less people procreating, and more caring)

PS does your mum have a penis? Maybe she can come too!
Are you trying to offend people, or is that supposed to be some sort of joke?

Is anyone still in this discussion?
you are :rolleyes:

It doesn't so much matter to me, but you might be surprised to know that some people will only ever fall in love with someone of an other gender. And I would find it odd if such a person would argue that gender doesn't matter, that's all.

To me gender does matter, definitely. I don't know in what degree I should 'blame' society for that though. Certainly there is some biological imperative to procreate, which should decree at least some interest in the opposite sex. But that'd needn't be exclusive (on the contrary, with all the over population it'd make sense to have less people procreating, and more caring)
I was never out looking for lvoe, in fact I never believed in it, I just had friends, some that sexual tension played in and I saw more sexually than others but I was friends with everyone I ever considered a girl/boy friend.

We done bonzo! Want a gold star?
No. I already have one. Got beer?

From Neo anarchists profile " Locking the target, baiting the line, slowly setting the net, and catching the man."
Are you going to use your penis or pussy on that occasion. Also please let me be that man. Go on you shamale slut!
Fuck off! Stop insulting people.

From Neo anarchists profile " Locking the target, baiting the line, slowly setting the net, and catching the man."
:rolleyes:
It's a quote from a Front 242 song.
Are you going to use your penis or pussy on that occasion. Also please let me be that man. Go on you shamale slut!
Consider yourself reported.

And, for future information, TRANSSEXUALS DO NOT HAVE THE GENITALS OF BOTH GENDERS.

I wish. Got any good transsexual jokes?
Yes but I'm not telling you because you would mutilate them

:rolleyes:
It's a quote from a Front 242 song.

Consider yourself reported.

And, for future information, TRANSSEXUALS DO NOT HAVE THE GENITALS OF BOTH GENDERS.
Hey. Sorry about that guy... He's being a real jerk. Nice to meet you, I'm Matt, I've seen you in a ton of boards just never said hi or anything.

Hey. Sorry about that guy... He's being a real jerk. Nice to meet you, I'm Matt, I've seen you in a ton of boards just never said hi or anything.
Hi Matt!
Hopefully, the mods will get here to deal with this soon.

Touchy! Someones got their male/female/wierd feak crossover underwear in a twist. Calm down and realise what im saying is the only way to treat theses people
Wow, you're a sexist, descriminative bastard.

Hi Matt!
Hopefully, the mods will get here to deal with this soon.
I sure hope so.

By the way I didn't actually mean that stuff, just testing your limits.
I know and that's my limit, so you've tested it, now you can stop.

Stop feeding the troll.

Go grow a penis and maybe we'll listen. No penis or pussy then no rights for you! (ps Can we date?)

Knock it off.

On second thought, that was pretty sustained trolling. 1 week forumban.

Well gender is already defined as an IDENTITY thing, removed from genotype or pehnotype...

People existed for thousands of years without ever worrying about how to figure out whether someone was male or female. In fact, they thought it was pretty easy. You have the baby, the doctor takes a look, and the first thing you hear... “It’s a boy/girl!” Jeez. Of course, back then they did not have to worry about the kid growing up and having him/herself surgically altered. Your birth certificate has a gender on it. You should not be able to change it.

If that offended anyone, well, you asked. I answered. People lived that way for millennia. Learn to deal with it!

People existed for thousands of years without ever worrying about how to figure out whether someone was male or female. In fact, they thought it was pretty easy. You have the baby, the doctor takes a look, and the first thing you hear... “It’s a boy/girl!” Jeez. Of course, back then they did not have to worry about the kid growing up and having him/herself surgically altered. Your birth certificate has a gender on it. You should not be able to change it.

If that offended anyone, well, you asked. I answered. People lived that way for millennia. Learn to deal with it!

What about eunuchs, the third sex?

Learn to deal with it!
Wondeful.
Another person that supports this.
:(

Really i should say there are too many genders, its confusing just thinking of it.

Male
Female
Hemaphrodite (female genitalia operable as it were)
Hemaphrodite (Male Genitalia operable as it were)
Hemaphrodite (neither works really)
Transgender (MTF)
Transgender (FTM)
Eunuch

What do you call all of these, i cant even begin to imagine. He, She... and im stumped.

It honestly should be whatever the person calls themself, so if a man refers to herself as her, then she is. Confusing, possibly, but the only way forward.

What I am saying is this,
A persons gender should be determined by the chromosomes.
If a person is ill and have Turners the majority of the chromosomes in that person should be considerd the gender of that person. If the majority is male than that person is male.
Like I said if a person has a sex change opperation eg. a man is changed to look like a woman it does not make him a woman. So no, its not what they look like that makes the fact and I never said that.

According to you, gender is decided as either XX or XY.

In Turner's, the majority of cells are generally XO. The rest (of varying frequency) can be either XY or XX. XO does not define a gender, so do we determine it by the rest?

And what about XXY? These people often present with sex characteristics of both genders. How do we define them?

XO If a sperm cell containing no sex chromosome fertilizes an egg, the resulting zygote will be XO or male.

XO often results from improper division.

Thus, a perfectly normal X or Y sperm fertilizes the egg. In early division, one of the cells does not divide properly and ends up being XO. All further cells from that cell are XO, while the cells from the others are XX or XY. The person has a mixture of XO and XX or XY.

Turner syndrome is a chromosomal condition that exclusively affects girls and women. It occurs when one of the two X chromosomes normally found in females is missing or incomplete. The syndrome is named after Dr. Henry Turner, who was among the first to describe its features in the 1930's.
Turner syndrome is caused by the complete or partial absence of one of the two X chromosomes normally found in women.
Turner syndrome is not associated with any environmental or any other factors generally associated with genetic problems. Despite many efforts, no real causes have been found to be linked to this condition. It appears to be a random event that can happen to anyone.
The most common characteristics of Turner syndrome include short stature and lack of ovarian development. A number of other physical features, such as webbed neck, arms that turn out slightly at the elbow, and a low hairline in the back of the head are sometimes seen in Turner syndrome patients. Individuals with Turner syndrome are also prone to cardiovascular problems, kidney and thyroid problems, skeletal disorders such as scoliosis (curvature of the spine) or dislocated hips, and hearing and ear disturbances.
Other problems associated with having Turner's... Heart problems, kidney problems or thyroid problems are the most frequent health problems that can occur. While they are usually not too serious, they do require good consistent medical care and management by a qualified sub-specialist. Not everyone has every problem associated with this condition.
Turner syndrome is among the most common chromosomal abnormalities, occurring in about 1 out of 2500 live female births. Approximately 60,000 girls and women are affected in the United States, with approximately 800 new cases being diagnosed each year.
There may be some differences in learning style that make verbal learning come more easily and math or spatial problems more difficult. Despite these challenges, women with Turner syndrome can lead productive successful lives in many different types of careers.

I have done my research.

You missed the part where a good number of the patient's cells can be XX or XY because Turner's can result in improper embryonic division. As such, many Turner's patients have *Testis* that have simply not descended. In case you were wondering, testis are male organs.

The phenotype is dependent on genotype so it makes no sense to have them seperated.

Wow, you have been living under a rock, haven't you?

Many people are born and the phenotype is ambiguous. Others have sex changes. Others present with characteristics of both sexes.

Do a little research.

ill make this simple. If you have at least one Y chromosone you are a boy regardless the number of X chromosones you have (max 2 if you are born with a disease) and a girl has no Y chromosone

What if you have some cells with a Y chromosome, but most of your cells have only an X chromosome?

What if you have some cells with a Y chromosome, but all of your hormones and physical characteristics would be considered female?

Does this mean that a woman who has an organ transplant or bone marrow transplant from a man is now male?

It doesn't so much matter to me, but you might be surprised to know that some people will only ever fall in love with someone of an other gender. And I would find it odd if such a person would argue that gender doesn't matter, that's all.

To me gender does matter, definitely. I don't know in what degree I should 'blame' society for that though. Certainly there is some biological imperative to procreate, which should decree at least some interest in the opposite sex. But that'd needn't be exclusive (on the contrary, with all the over population it'd make sense to have less people procreating, and more caring)

Does gender actually matter to you per se, or do you simply only find yourself attracted to one gender? Is it the attraction that is the force behind it, or the gender itself?

People existed for thousands of years without ever worrying about how to figure out whether someone was male or female. In fact, they thought it was pretty easy. You have the baby, the doctor takes a look, and the first thing you hear... “It’s a boy/girl!” Jeez. Of course, back then they did not have to worry about the kid growing up and having him/herself surgically altered. Your birth certificate has a gender on it. You should not be able to change it.

If that offended anyone, well, you asked. I answered. People lived that way for millennia. Learn to deal with it!

Wow, you are sheltered.

Here's a rare, but common enough occurence. The doctor looks and says "It's a uh, well, it's a, let's check, uh, eh...."

There is also the case where a girl grows up, is supposed to hit puberty, but doesn't. Then they find out she has Turner's and a pair of undescended testes that have to be removed so that she doesn't get cancer.

Though I'm sure this has been stated ad nauseum, gender is a social and grammtical construct. Sex is a biological characteristic. Thus, genotypic and phenotypic characteristics are subjective to culture. I personally think that one should be as free about their gender as they want, and all of them should be treated equally. No special rights to the typical genders or less common ones.

I voted for the second, but I really go for the first and second. Anyone with a mix of both organs...is called an it or a hermaphrodite(is that the correct word?)

I voted for the second, but I really go for the first and second. Anyone with a mix of both organs...is called an it or a hermaphrodite(is that the correct word?)

It really isn't as black and white as all that.

And you can't "go for" both the first and second without getting into some really odd legal inconsistencies. Imagine the case where the government had to define people as both male and female.

Does gender actually matter to you per se, or do you simply only find yourself attracted to one gender? Is it the attraction that is the force behind it, or the gender itself?Well, gender is part of the image I have of a person. The moment I see someone, I'll assign them a gender (and occasionally I'll find out I misguessed). And that will further influence my perception of them. So the idea of gender that society has instilled in me does play a role before I am aware of any attraction.

Wondeful.
Another person that supports this.
:(
Why would you expect anything else?

Why would you expect anything else?
Because I haven't gotten out much and have been slowly losing my connection with reality, that's why.

Grr. Real world=/=fun.

Though I'm sure this has been stated ad nauseum, gender is a social and grammtical construct. Sex is a biological characteristic. Thus, genotypic and phenotypic characteristics are subjective to culture. I personally think that one should be as free about their gender as they want, and all of them should be treated equally. No special rights to the typical genders or less common ones.

The government assumes that there is no difference. As such, it is attempting to define both in the same way.

What about eunuchs, the third sex?
A eunuch is still either male or female.

Wondeful.
Another person that supports this.
:(
I knew you would disagree. I am against sex-change operations. Unfortunately we cannot find common ground here, as our opinions are mutually exclusive. It has been proven time and time again that men and women are different on more than just a physical level. Changing your stuff does not change who you are; it disguises it.

Wow, you are sheltered.

Here's a rare, but common enough occurence. The doctor looks and says "It's a uh, well, it's a, let's check, uh, eh...."

There is also the case where a girl grows up, is supposed to hit puberty, but doesn't. Then they find out she has Turner's and a pair of undescended testes that have to be removed so that she doesn't get cancer.
Those are rare exceptions. They have always existed. Why are we only now having trouble with them?

If we really want a way to distinguish, how about this... if a person is sexually fertile, it should be obvious enough which gender they are. If they are infertile, then at what point in their life did they become that way, and what about before then? At some point in their life their gender was pretty obvious.

Blah, people should be whatever they want to be. Male, female, inbetween, neither, all of the above or giraffe, it doesn't bother me, it doesn't destroy my quality of life, but it does help the other person feel happier. Why would I deny them that? Even if I did have some personal disagreement with the own thing, which I don't, I'd keep it to myself.

Just to debate the most recent post, you say you are against sex changing operations. Why? Why is that such an affront to you that you feel it is morally objectionable? It is their body, and being stigmatised, held in disdain (for some inexplicable reason), and even assaulted, by some people whos ignorance is exceeded only by their intolerance, is not an enlightened course of action, surely?

Most of us long ago realised that there's no real difference between a black person and a white person, and someone who holds racist views nowadays is seen as backwards, and barbaric. How much longer are we going to maintain these backward and barbaric views towards homosexuals and transexuals, when there is no good reason for not treating everyone equally.


Yeah, so my entire post is quite incoherent and rambling. This is something I'm feeling increasingly strongly about, anyhow.

Those are rare exceptions. They have always existed. Why are we only now having trouble with them?

Most of us are not. However, if these exceptions exist, then our definition of gender is faulty. They don't fit in anywhere, and they need to. It has to do with trying to regulate a society based on what gender the government decides that someone is.

If we really want a way to distinguish, how about this... if a person is sexually fertile, it should be obvious enough which gender they are. If they are infertile, then at what point in their life did they become that way, and what about before then? At some point in their life their gender was pretty obvious.

What if they were born infertile and thus their gender was never "obvious"?

People existed for thousands of years without ever worrying about how to figure out whether someone was male or female. In fact, they thought it was pretty easy. You have the baby, the doctor takes a look, and the first thing you hear... “It’s a boy/girl!”

right, and any infants born with abnormal genetalia were left to die of exposure. how humane. intersexed babies are actually relatively common, and it's not like that's anything new...we simply don't believe it is right to murder children who are born intersexed any more, so now those kids get a chance to grow up and start asking for equal rights and respect.


Jeez. Of course, back then they did not have to worry about the kid growing up and having him/herself surgically altered. Your birth certificate has a gender on it. You should not be able to change it.

why not? what do you care if somebody else changes their gender? they aren't forcing you to change yours, so why the hell are you so concerned with it?


If that offended anyone, well, you asked. I answered. People lived that way for millennia. Learn to deal with it!
people also lived with slavery for longer than a millenia. women lived as property, with virtually no rights of their own, for longer than a millenia. humans believed the Earth sat at the center of the universe for at least a millenia, probably far longer. just because something has been done for hundreds of years doesn't mean it is right or good, and it certainly doesn't mean it's the best possible solution.

No, I'm not looking at what they have between their legs; I'm talking gender here, not sex, even though that does usually correspond.
So, not that it is any of my business, but does this mean you are bisexual? I mean, if gender and sex absolutely do not matter to you. Equal opportunity?
yup, i'm bisexual. i've never seen any reason why i should ignore 50% of the hot people in the world :).

Why all the fuss over gender? Let people just pick what they want to be. If someone wants to be a raging queen, transvestite, transsexual, whatever, go ahead. More power to ya.

:confused:

But femenists and womans rights groups would be a bit dissapointed if it was.

Why?

There are very few innate, hardwired behaviour differences between men and women. Such innate differences that do exist mostly have to do with the selection of mates and other behaviour that has directly to do with reproduction; and these differences are not universal either, only common; in either case, while they may be important in people's private lives, they have limited significance to their social behaviour in situations that have nothing directly to do with sex; and no significance to anything that would be in most governments' field of concern.

So when it comes to most social interactions, there are no fundamental, unchangeable differences between how men and women think or act.

While Newer Oxford and many, many others would disagree with the above, the majority of all known evidence actually seems to support the view that male/female behaviour differences stem from social forces and culture, *not* from biology. It's who you interacted with since birth, not how you were shaped before birth, that determines who you are.

So most of the significant social differences are quite changeable, especially from generation to generation. There's nothing in a woman's genes telling her to act stereotypically 'feminine,' nor do a man's *genes* determine his day-to-day behaviour in any significant way.

For a good overview of the supporting evidence, consider the book "Same Difference" by Rosalind Barnett and Caryl Rivers. It is based on analyses of over a thousand studies on male/female social differences; its conclusion is that men and women act out different social roles primarily because of socialization and a power imbalance between them (in most situations, men have the higher position in the social hierarchy; this is what, to a large extent, determines the different behaviours of the genders. And in social interactions in which a woman has the higher social position, such as in the depressingly rare case of the female corporate executive, there is usually nothing stereotypically 'feminine' in her behaviour when she interacts with others, including males).

Given all this, then, there's no particular reason to care what gender someone is, as far as society as a whole is concerned. This distinction might be important in your personal, private life, especially when choosing a partner; but I think in our private lives we should deal with others on more of a case-by-case basis, rather than referring to some overarching, permanent, unbreakable rule to classify all the people we interact with as male/female. I'm certainly not going to use DNA tests to decide how I should deal with others in my daily life; if they want to be referred to as male or female, I don't see why I should offend them by refusing; and at any rate, unless I'm hoping to ask someone out on a date, why should I care what their gender is? I'd probably base my interaction with them on their personality, not on their genes or anatomy or anything else; and, as I stated above, there's good reason to think that there's no such thing as a hardwired 'male' or 'female' personality.

So, in the end, I think the *only* time the question asked in this thread should be really important is when you're considering someone as a potential date. And in such cases, it should largely be a matter of your -- and their -- personal preference; for me, the important factors would be what their own view of their sexuality is, and their phenotypic sex. As far as socialization goes, I certainly wouldn't look for someone close to a stereotypically 'female' or 'male' personality, as people at either of these extremes of behaviour are typically difficult to get along with.

Why all the fuss over gender? Let people just pick what they want to be. If someone wants to be a raging queen, transvestite, transsexual, whatever, go ahead. More power to ya.
you know, i read a book recently in which medicine had advanced to the point where people could get total-body plastic surgery in a couple of hours. people could change their entire body the way we currently can change our hairstyles, and sex changes were a matter of routine; eventually people would get curious about how the other sex lives, or would simply be bored of being their current gender, so they would switch for a while. as a result, gender discrimination and sex roles were totally non-existent because they had been rendered meaningless. people took the roles in society that best suited their personality, and took lovers based solely on personality, because anybody could be any gender they wanted to be whenever they felt like it.

the actual plot of the book wasn't terribly impressive, but that bit was cool.

Women still drive worse than men on average. That's one stereotype that remains true.

I don't really think it should matter. I would lean towards genotype, but there really isn't much of a reason for classification.

Anyone who has both a genotypical and a phenotypical anamoly that would make them genderless is an abomination though, I mean, they are no longer human, they'd either be a degenerate or a super, depending on your point of view.

you know, i read a book recently in which medicine had advanced to the point where people could get total-body plastic surgery in a couple of hours. people could change their entire body the way we currently can change our hairstyles, and sex changes were a matter of routine; eventually people would get curious about how the other sex lives, or would simply be bored of being their current gender, so they would switch for a while. as a result, gender discrimination and sex roles were totally non-existent because they had been rendered meaningless. people took the roles in society that best suited their personality, and took lovers based solely on personality, because anybody could be any gender they wanted to be whenever they felt like it.

the actual plot of the book wasn't terribly impressive, but that bit was cool.
That sounds pretty interesting. I wonder how long before we get there as a society. Shit, who wouldn't want to be a woman for a day? ;)

There are obviously two different types of gender - biological gender and psychological gender.

Biological gender is simply to do with what body parts you have, which isn't always male or female (e.g: Hermaphrodite).

Psychological gender is more complicated, and is more free flowing. Most people, either as a result of social expectations or genetics or both, are roughly the same psychological gender as biological gender. However, some strongly know that they are NOT the same psychological gender as their biological gender. Thankfully, modern medicine can solve this problem, although it is a long and painful process.

I really admire those that do go ahead with their feelings and get a sex change operation - they must have to be really courageous to go ahead and do it. I mean, if I felt like I was a female deep down I don't know if I could admit it and would probably just spend my life conforming to male social roles to make things easier.

Incidently, I think that the webcomic Venus Envy at http://venusenvy.keenspace.com/ is good for helping to understand and get a healthy attitude towards transexuality, and it's pretty funny as well. Don't read it if you are pretty set in your beliefs though - you'll probably just get offended.

There are obviously two different types of gender - biological gender and psychological gender.

Biological gender is simply to do with what body parts you have, which isn't always male or female (e.g: Hermaphrodite).

Psychological gender is more complicated, and is more free flowing. Most people, either as a result of social expectations or genetics or both, are roughly the same psychological gender as biological gender. However, some strongly know that they are NOT the same psychological gender as their biological gender. Thankfully, modern medicine can solve this problem, although it is a long and painful process.

I really admire those that do go ahead with their feelings and get a sex change operation - they must have to be really courageous to go ahead and do it. I mean, if I felt like I was a female deep down I don't know if I could admit it and would probably just spend my life conforming to male social roles to make things easier.

Incidently, I think that the webcomic Venus Envy at http://venusenvy.keenspace.com/ is good for helping to understand and get a healthy attitude towards transexuality, and it's pretty funny as well. Don't read it if you are pretty set in your beliefs though - you'll probably just get offended.


So, since the government seems to think that it has to define these things, do we define a person who has had a sex-change operation by their genotype or phenotype? What about a male who simply has breast implants? What about a pre-op transsexual?

i have a question that's a slight tangent, hope it doesn't hijack much, but...

given that the vast majority of sex change operations are performed on men who wish to become women, what does that say about the theory of Penis Envy?

i have a question that's a slight tangent, hope it doesn't hijack much, but...

given that the vast majority of sex change operations are performed on men who wish to become women, what does that say about the theory of Penis Envy?
:D
http://venusenvy.keenspace.com/comics/20011210.jpg

This is from that "Venus Envy" webcomic somebody suggested earlier. Which I'm now addicted to.
Grr, cute artwork will be the death of me someday...
But it's just so cuuute!
^.^

i have a question that's a slight tangent, hope it doesn't hijack much, but...

given that the vast majority of sex change operations are performed on men who wish to become women, what does that say about the theory of Penis Envy?

Slight Hijack response.

I think that it says that Freud`s Penis Envy theory is as crackpot as the rest of his unverifiable psychobabble.

So, since the government seems to think that it has to define these things, do we define a person who has had a sex-change operation by their genotype or phenotype? What about a male who simply has breast implants? What about a pre-op transsexual?
i think it should be defined by how you LIVE. if you live as a woman, you are female. (as opposed to a man who sometimes dresses up as a woman and goes to a club)

i do think that one should have to CHOOSE and stay with the decision though. no "one day female the next day male" kind of thing. not that you couldnt change your mind, it just has to be a "permanent" decision on the same level as the permanent decision to get married.

Thanks, I always used to think that a female bore the young, but with seahorses it is the male that gives birth. So either that's the exception to the rule or the definition is more complex than that.

I'm sure someone mentioned it before me, but the female seahorse lays the eggs - the male only carries them once fertilized. So the female is still the child-bearer unless you're dealing with something asexual, like a worm or sponge.

So anyway, aside from abnormal cases, the male's got the Y, and that's all there is to it. The idea that gender is a state of mind is pure nonsense, both conceptually, and in the real world.

i think it should be defined by how you LIVE. if you live as a woman, you are female. (as opposed to a man who sometimes dresses up as a woman and goes to a club)

i do think that one should have to CHOOSE and stay with the decision though. no "one day female the next day male" kind of thing. not that you couldnt change your mind, it just has to be a "permanent" decision on the same level as the permanent decision to get married.

Why bother with it at all? What is it that makes a lifestyle as a woman so different from one as a man?

i think it should be defined by how you LIVE. if you live as a woman, you are female. (as opposed to a man who sometimes dresses up as a woman and goes to a club)

i do think that one should have to CHOOSE and stay with the decision though. no "one day female the next day male" kind of thing. not that you couldnt change your mind, it just has to be a "permanent" decision on the same level as the permanent decision to get married.
why? in a marriage you are committing to another person, so it's a contract you have entered into with somebody else; both of you would be involved in ending that contract, so you have an obligation to the other person to carry out the contract in good faith. but your gender is a contract you enter into with yourself, essentially, so why shouldn't you be able to end it whenever you feel appropriate? what the hell do you care if somebody is male on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Sundays, and female on all remaining days? you don't have to date them if you don't want to, they aren't expecting you to perform their sex change, so exactly why should they be forbidden to live in the way that makes them happy?

I guess I will never understand some people. If someone is happy living a certain way or describing themselves a certain way, what's the problem? It doesn't hurt anyone else. Why do people think if you want to call yourself a polysexual shemale it should be any of their business?

I guess I will never understand some people. If someone is happy living a certain way or describing themselves a certain way, what's the problem? It doesn't hurt anyone else. Why do people think if you want to call yourself a polysexual shemale it should be any of their business?

You can call yourself an orange, but it wouldn't change the facts. The topic is still 'defining gender,' but naturally a tiny fraction of people will always suffer from confusion and such.

I think the only problem occurs when transexuals enter into a relationship, either post op or pre op, and the issue of if, how and when to reveal the fact they used to biologically be a guy/girl comes about. Is it, for example, deceit if a post op transexual neglects to tell a guy that she used to be male and has sex with him? What if she really loves the guy and is too scared to tell so continues to not tell? You could, I suppose, say that nobody tells their potential lovers secrets that might put them off - but it is a really big thing for some people. I imagine it would really hurt a lot of guys who do have certain feelings against that kind of thing to find out that their girlfriend of several years was a man, and ditto for girls who find out their boyfriend used to be a woman. They may not be bad people for these feelings - they may be accepting of the way others want to live their life but not really want to get involved themselves.

I don't know - i'm not an expert on the whole transexual world. Maybe they only date those who know from the very start? But i'm sure the issue has come up.

You can call yourself an orange, but it wouldn't change the facts. The topic is still 'defining gender,' but naturally a tiny fraction of people will always suffer from confusion and such.
i don't see anybody being "confused" except for the individuals who can't accept that other adults have freedom of choice. i have known a couple of transexuals, and they aren't "confused" in the slightest; they know exactly what gender they are, and they simply want their bodies to conform to what they are sure of. OTHER people may be confused by their choice, but the transexuals i have met were all quite clear headed on the subject.

just because the idea of more than two set-in-stone genders confuses YOU doesn't mean that the rest of us are so limited.