NationStates Jolt Archive

So, I'm tired of this seeming belief amongst some that Al Qaeda and the US are equivalent morally. Guess what. They aren't. While the US has done some bad things, it has done far more good things. There's people on these forums who wouldn't blink twice if a claim was made that the US was responsible for Tsunami's. And they might even jump onto the boat. They are clearly mistaken.

Statement: The US is NOT evil. And that's the truth, no matter how some people may try to spin it.

Isn't it nice to be the one and only knower of the absolute truth?

Isn't it nice to be the one and only knower of the absolute truth?
It is, because I wouldn't believe it if it were wrong...*grumps*

Statement: The US is NOT evil. And that's the truth, no matter how some people may try to spin it.

No just unethical. Guatanemo Bay anyone?

No just unethical. Guatanemo Bay anyone?
Who's to say what ethics are? Are you trying to force your morality on me? You better not be.

Hell, we don't even know what's really going on there. Beyond a few pictures, for all we know, the prisoners could play volleyball and relax on the sand sipping non-alcoholic margaritas (they are muslim after all) on a daily basis.

And spell Guantanamo right.

It is, because I wouldn't believe it if it were wrong...*grumps*
Everybody else probably feels the same way. As far as I care, you might all be right simultaneously.

Statement: The US is NOT evil. And that's the truth, no matter how some people may try to spin it.

I agree with you on this. The US and Al Quieda are morally very diffrent. Thats not to say one side is "Good" and the other "Evil" but in terms of morals of war, the latter is very much in the deep end. "Good" and "Evil" are hard models to apply here though.

Hell, we don't even know what's really going on there. Beyond a few pictures, for all we know, the prisoners could play volleyball and relax on the sand sipping non-alcoholic margaritas (they are muslim after all) on a daily basis.

Sounds nice. :cool:

The people of the US? Probably not? The ruling classes of the US? They're not maniacal, per se. They just work to protect their power and their class interests, like everybody else. And if a few hundred-thousand asians or arabs have to die for that at any given time, that's just the cost of doing business, eh?

Pffft.

Who's to say what ethics are? Are you trying to force your morality on me? You better not be.

Hell, we don't even know what's really going on there. Beyond a few pictures, for all we know, the prisoners could play volleyball and relax on the sand sipping non-alcoholic margaritas (they are muslim after all) on a daily basis.

And spell Guantanamo right.
Non-alcoholic margaritas? My god! We are using torture!

So, I'm tired of this seeming belief amongst some that Al Qaeda and the US are equivalent morally. Guess what. They aren't. While the US has done some bad things, it has done far more good things.
I agree that the USA has done some good things, which is why they are better than al-Qaeda (which, to my knowledge, has never done anything other than kill and hurt).

BUT.

Is it more moral to press a button to drop a bomb that kills dozens of people than it is to hack off one person's head while raving "God is great"?

Think about it.

the US was responsible for Tsunami's.
Old news. Knew that already.

Statement: The US is NOT evil.
Yeah right.

Who's to say what ethics are? Are you trying to force your morality on me? You better not be.
No, but I think your country should abide by the morality of the treaties it has signed up to. (In the Guantanamo case that is the Geneva Conventions.)

Isn't it nice to be the one and only knower of the absolute truth?
yes, those of us who have faith in what we're doing and aren't cynical assholes about everything that they don't neccessarily agree with, we think it nice to be the knowers of truth in these situations.

I agree that the USA has done some good things, which is why they are better than al-Qaeda (which, to my knowledge, has never done anything other than kill and hurt).

BUT.

Is it more moral to press a button to drop a bomb that kills dozens of people than it is to hack off one person's head while raving "God is great"?

Think about it.
The difference is that dropping a bomb by and far kills someone who's willing to kill American's. There are instances where innocents are killed, but it is unintentional. Hence, a bomb, espescially a smart-bomb, is inherently a non-random strike, thus it is an acceptable exercise of power.

Chopping off the heads of people on the other hand is completely random. We see that all sorts of different people get their heads chopped off, for no reason at all. Sometimes the people who are executed are even trying to improve other's lives.

Morality is a tricky thing, but there are various ways to show the difference between a non-random act with potential error whose goal is more than fear, and a totally random act whose only goal is to instill fear.

No, but I think your country should abide by the morality of the treaties it has signed up to. (In the Guantanamo case that is the Geneva Conventions.)
We are abiding by the Geneva Accords in Guantanamo. The enemy forces don't follow the convention, and we aren't bound to do so for them.

The difference is that dropping a bomb by and far kills someone who's willing to kill American's. There are instances where innocents are killed, but it is unintentional. Hence, a bomb, espescially a smart-bomb, is inherently a non-random strike, thus it is an acceptable exercise of power.
Ah yes. But if another country was to use such acceptable exercise of power on the US it would still be called terrorism. I guess such acceptable exercise of power only applies to Americans.

We are abiding by the Geneva Accords in Guantanamo. The enemy forces don't follow the convention, and we aren't bound to do so for them.
Convinient isn't it?

Convinient isn't it?
It is.

Ah yes. But if another country was to use such acceptable exercise of power on the US it would still be called terrorism. I guess such acceptable exercise of power only applies to Americans.

The key is the acceptability of it. What's the origination of this incident? Has recompense already been issued? Is the incident actually worthy of a response? And is the target something specific, like, say a military complex? Or is it a random strike against, say the Empire state building.

If it was acceptable, then it would be an act of war, not of terrorism though. There is a difference.

I personally do not believe anything can really be "good" or "evil", because there is no universal definition as to what these are. Al Qaeda takes children with with Downs syndrome and forces them to be human bombs, and still consider themselves good. Americans degrade and torture prisoners, and still consider ourselves good; yet we view each other's actions as pure evil. The U.S. and Al Qaeda are not alone though, because at some point every nation in the world has commited what would be considered an unspeakably disgusting act to others, but would seem perfectly reasonable to them. Can anyone really be truthfully good or evil, if everyone has different opinions as to what these abstract concepts mean? To me, there is no good or evil; only hate.

First of all, I personally do not believe anything can really be "good" or "evil", because there is no universal definition as to what these are. Al Qaeda takes children with with Downs syndrome and forces them to be human bombs, and still consider themselves good. Americans degrade and torture prisoners, and still consider ourselves good; yet we view each other's actions as pure evil. The U.S. and Al Qaeda are not alone though, because at some point every nation in the world has commited what would be considered an unspeakably disgusting act to others, but would seem perfectly reasonable to them. Can anyone really be truthfully good or evil, if everyone has different opinions as to what these abstract concepts mean? To me, there is no good or evil; only hate.
No, no one can be totally good or evil, but you can be varying shades of grey, and I'm saying that the US is a fairly light shade of grey, whilst Al Qaeda is a fairly dark shade of grey.

yes, those of us who have faith in what we're doing and aren't cynical assholes about everything that they don't neccessarily agree with, we think it nice to be the knowers of truth in these situations.
Did you make a point? I feel like you tried, but I don't know what it was.

BUT.

Is it more moral to press a button to drop a bomb that kills dozens of people than it is to hack off one person's head while raving "God is great"?

Think about it.

The big diffrence between Terrorists and US forces are the following. Terrorists are indiscriminate. They dont care who they kill. American forces are only trying to kill the terrorists/insurgents but it is the terrorists bluring the line between combatant and civilian and so it makes it harder for the US to target them. In effect, the terrorists are to blame for all the civilian Iraq deaths.

I agree that the USA has done some good things, which is why they are better than al-Qaeda (which, to my knowledge, has never done anything other than kill and hurt).

BUT.

Is it more moral to press a button to drop a bomb that kills dozens of people than it is to hack off one person's head while raving "God is great"?

Think about it.

Okay. I've thought about it. And no, neither action is morally superior. One is technologically superior, but not morally superior.

Okay. I've thought about it. And no, neither action is morally superior. One is technologically superior, but not morally superior.

Depends who you are killing. Terrorists go around killing/kidnapping/decapitaing every westener they can. Where as the US is attmempting to target the terrorists. Only because the terrorists are trying to blend in with the civilians so much, civilians die too. In effect, terrorists are to blame for all the civilain deaths.

The big diffrence between Terrorists and US forces are the following. Terrorists are indiscriminate. They dont care who they kill. American forces are only trying to kill the terrorists/insurgents but it is the terrorists bluring the line between combatant and civilian and so it makes it harder for the US to target them. In effect, the terrorists are to blame for all the civilian Iraq deaths.
Precisely.

I keep away from morality, and go down to the cold hard facts.

Just a point, if Andaluciae is so ready to state:
Who's to say what ethics are? Are you trying to force your morality on me? You better not be.
in his defense, then obviously the entire argument is stupid. If nobody can state absolute ethics, then it's equally valid to say that Al-Qaeda is morally superior to the US than it is to state that the US is morally superior to Al-Qaeda. In other words, your defense contradicts the premise of your primary argument.

So Andaluciae - are you trying to force your morality onto me? Because I think that Al-Qaeda is equal to the US.

American forces are only trying to kill the terrorists/insurgents.
But they don't care if they hit somebody other then a "terrorist/insurgent" either. Plus their commanders tell them killing is fun. To boost morale of course. So there isn't much of a difference between them.

http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr285/img/gr000020.jpg

I think that sums it up for me.

Statement: The US is NOT evil.

AND apart from M. Moore there's also

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/American_holocaust.htm

I personally do not believe anything can really be "good" or "evil", because there is no universal definition as to what these are. Al Qaeda takes children with with Downs syndrome and forces them to be human bombs, and still consider themselves good. Americans degrade and torture prisoners, and still consider ourselves good; yet we view each other's actions as pure evil. The U.S. and Al Qaeda are not alone though, because at some point every nation in the world has commited what would be considered an unspeakably disgusting act to others, but would seem perfectly reasonable to them. Can anyone really be truthfully good or evil, if everyone has different opinions as to what these abstract concepts mean? To me, there is no good or evil; only hate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_Imperative

We are abiding by the Geneva Accords in Guantanamo. The enemy forces don't follow the convention, and we aren't bound to do so for them.

Do you know u.s. obligations according to the treaties you have signed?

do you really think there are margharitas?

so, the keeping of u.s. pows in vietnam was o.k.?

Statement: The US is NOT evil. And that's the truth, no matter how some people may try to spin it.

Statement: "Al-Qaida is NOT evil. And that's the truth, no matter how some people may try to spin it."