NationStates Jolt Archive

from - http://************/52omw

WASHINGTON, Feb. 1 - Howard Dean emerged Tuesday as the almost assured new leader of the Democratic National Committee, as one of his main rivals quit the race and Democrats streamed to announce their support of a man whose presidential campaign collapsed one year ago.


WOOHOO! This is the best news since Nov.2!

The Democrats will move even further left, assuring themselves to be the minority party for a generation.

I really think they should have picked Nancy Pelosi. She doesn't make any secret of the fact that she's really a Communist.

If the Democratic Party wants to exist, they have to be a real party of the Left. The tactic of clinging to the Republicans is a stupid one.

Clinging to the other party gets these incredibly close elections that are swung by the whim of voters' perception about side issues rather than real issues.

Offer a real alternative, dammit.

Dean might have been anti-war, but in all other respects he's still a Republican. A gun-toting Republican at that.

Hell, as a Republican, I could vote for him, because I know that deep down inside, he wouldn't change a thing - in fact, my gun rights would be just as assured as they are under Bush.

I can see the people at Handgun Control weeping as they see the news of Dean's success.... and the champagne corks at the NRA...

I'm a liberal and I love the guy.

from - http://************/52omw

WASHINGTON, Feb. 1 - Howard Dean emerged Tuesday as the almost assured new leader of the Democratic National Committee, as one of his main rivals quit the race and Democrats streamed to announce their support of a man whose presidential campaign collapsed one year ago.

WOOHOO! This is the best news since Nov.2!

The Democrats will move even further left, assuring themselves to be the minority party for a generation.

I agree. Howard Dean is a loon. I feel sorry for that dwindling number of Democrats who aren't certifiable. :(

Howard Dean's record as governor of Vermont has been called moderate.

When you are governor of a state that continually elects a socialist to congress, Dean is in fact a moderate.

I agree. Howard Dean is a loon. I feel sorry for that dwindling number of Democrats who aren't certifiable. :(
How is actually becoming an opposiution party a bad thing?

Pelosi? BAH!!! The same old hasnt worked in 2000 and in 2004. We (the democrats) need a kick in the butt. Shake some things up. I really do think that Howard Dean could rally the base and draw in more of the blue collar citizens opposed to some of the New England democrats.

I just feel bad for the guy, he was running a good campaign til Iowa and then the news media destroyed him. All he was trying to do is put a good spin on things and rally his base, and apparently that included shouting. Which the media deemed was "weird"

Howard Dean's record as governor of Vermont has been called moderate.

When you are governor of a state that continually elects a socialist to congress, Dean is in fact a moderate.

A state where you don't need a license to carry a handgun concealed can't be too liberal...

The Democrats will move even further left, assuring themselves to be the minority party for a generation.
This is a big neocon talking tactic lately - try to convince Dems and independents that the Dem party needs to move even more to the "right".

The neocons are desperately afraid that the Dems will return to the center-left position that brought them to power so many times before. They can't keep shamelessly milking 9-11 forever, and sooner or later the people will stop being such quivering cowards and start to wonder why our country is suck a wreck...and they will look to the neo-commies of the Bush administration for the accountability that is so alien to them.

Almost as afraid as they are of *real* conservatives infiltrating the communist republican neocon party, but Ron Paul is the only one and they will probably keep it that way...alienating more and more true conservatives.

A state where you don't need a license to carry a handgun concealed can't be too liberal...
The facts are the facts: gun control has not worked anywhere and is unconstitutional beyond reasonable limits (ie, felons and madmen shouldn't carry guns). Check out the crime statistics for states that allow concealed carry, and THEN factor in something they always forget: the numerous instances where a gun owner prevented a crime.

Many, many people go over to Bush because of this one issue, not realizing that the neocons are just as gun-grabbing as the dems.

How is actually becoming an opposiution party a bad thing?
It scares the shit out of the repugs, who have had an easy ride lately. Thus they work very, very hard to convince dems that a return to their real principles would be a disaster. As long as the Dems can be kept in this "republican light" pose, they will lose, and all those smarmy neocons love that.

I'm a liberal and I love the guy.
Yes - repugs are afraid of him becuase he has balls, which dems lately have lacked. The bushies have impressed America (or at least Uh-mur-ka) with their fake-macho posturing; they cannot stand up to a real man like Dean.

I mean c'mon, all these warhawks like Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush...my two year old would kick their asses in a fair fight!

Just picture George Bush running through the crossfire in Fallujah, diving into dark doorways for cover...bwah hahahahahaha! Little ivy league pussy playing cowboy wouldn't last a minute.

This is a big neocon talking tactic lately - try to convince Dems and independents that the Dem party needs to move even more to the "right".

WTF is a "neocon" (other than another stupid lefty buzzword?)

WTF is a "neocon" (other than another stupid lefty buzzword?)
What planet have you been on? These guys labeled THEMSELVES neo-conservatives at least a decade ago, when they began rising like bubbles in the bathtub.

Neocon - noun - NEE-oh-kon
Someone who tries to appeal to traditional conservative principles to get the votes, but then spends like a communist, goes on military adventures like an emperor, and lies like the devil himself. Also known as "fake conservative", by real conservatives such as libertarians.

What planet have you been on? These guys labeled THEMSELVES neo-conservatives at least a decade ago, when they began rising like bubbles in the bathtub.

Neocon - noun - NEE-oh-kon
Someone who tries to appeal to traditional conservative principles to get the votes, but then spends like a communist, goes on military adventures like an emperor, and lies like the devil himself. Also known as "fake conservative", by real conservatives such as libertarians.

Oh, like Nixon. You know, Republican President who turns around and creates the Environmental Protection Agency...

Not too "neo" in my book...

The facts are the facts: gun control has not worked anywhere and is unconstitutional beyond reasonable limits (ie, felons and madmen shouldn't carry guns). Check out the crime statistics for states that allow concealed carry, and THEN factor in something they always forget: the numerous instances where a gun owner prevented a crime.

Many, many people go over to Bush because of this one issue, not realizing that the neocons are just as gun-grabbing as the dems.
Some studies show nevertheless that tougher gun control laws go hand in hand with lower crime rate. Your fact is dubious at best.

As to the part where it's unconstitutionnal: It all depends on your interpretation of what constitute a well-regulated militia. There's argument for both. So your fact is, once again, higly debatable.

Studies show nevertheless that tougher gun control laws go hand in hand with lower crime rate. Your fact is dubious at best.

As to the part where it's unconstitutionnal: It all depends on your interpretation of what constitute a well-regulated militia. There's argument for both. So your fact is, once again, higly debatable.


Tell that to the UK, which is getting increasing violent crime. Tell that to Luxembourg, who despite having all guns being illegal, has a murder rate comparable to the US. Or to Brazil, where civilian gun ownership is severely limited, but their total murders and murder rate is higher than the US.

The Small Arms Survey, an anti-gun international organization, holds that there is NO PROVEN CONNECTION between the rates of gun ownership and the rates of gun murder. They also state that there is a definite impact in the US on the prevention or aborting of violent crime by armed civilians - the only argument is the scale - from 60,000 incidents up to 2.5 million incidents prevented.

33 states in the US have lowered their crime rates faster than the other states - the only difference is that they liberalized concealed carry of guns.

Here in Virginia, a lot of criminals have moved their work to Maryland - in police interviews many say they fled Virginia because they now have no idea who may interfere with their crime - by shooting them. In Maryland, they feel "safe".

Gun ownership in my area has lowered violent crime by 33 percent in the first year of concealed carry - and it still continues to go down - while the neighboring county in Maryland saw a corresponding RISE in violent crime - and it continues to go up.

Howard Dean must agree with concealed carry - you don't even need a license to do it in Vermont.

Tell that to the UK, which is getting increasing violent crime. Tell that to Luxembourg, who despite having all guns being illegal, has a murder rate comparable to the US. Or to Brazil, where civilian gun ownership is severely limited, but their total murders and murder rate is higher than the US.

The Small Arms Survey, an anti-gun international organization, holds that there is NO PROVEN CONNECTION between the rates of gun ownership and the rates of gun murder. They also state that there is a definite impact in the US on the prevention or aborting of violent crime by armed civilians - the only argument is the scale - from 60,000 incidents up to 2.5 million incidents prevented.

33 states in the US have lowered their crime rates faster than the other states - the only difference is that they liberalized concealed carry of guns.

Here in Virginia, a lot of criminals have moved their work to Maryland - in police interviews many say they fled Virginia because they now have no idea who may interfere with their crime - by shooting them. In Maryland, they feel "safe".

Gun ownership in my area has lowered violent crime by 33 percent in the first year of concealed carry - and it still continues to go down - while the neighboring county in Maryland saw a corresponding RISE in violent crime - and it continues to go up.

Howard Dean must agree with concealed carry - you don't even need a license to do it in Vermont.
So?
You showed me that there were studies that came to different conclusions than both studies. Big deal. You are the one who said it was a proven fact. I merely say that your fact is being contested by other studies. Hardly a cold hard fact if it is questionned now does it?

So?
You showed me that there were studies that came to different conclusions than both studies. Big deal. You are the one who said it was a proven fact. I merely say that your fact is being contested by other studies. Hardly a cold hard fact if it is questionned now does it?

The Small Arms Survey say that there is an association between high gun ownership and low violence in some countries, and an association between low gun ownership and high violence in others. They say a general conclusion cannot be drawn.

HOWEVER.

In my area, there is a direct connection between more gun ownership, more concealed carry, and more open carry - and lower violence. In the neighboring jurisdiction, they have a corresponding trend between less gun ownership, no concealed carry, no open carry - and higher violence.

So in my area, the connection is PROVEN. It just doesn't apply to the rest of the world.

Just as any opposite connection, however PROVEN locally, doesn't apply to the rest of the world.

Leave your gun control somewhere else - because we've proven that it doesn't work in Maryland and Virginia.

The Small Arms Survey say that there is an association between high gun ownership and low violence in some countries, and an association between low gun ownership and high violence in others. They say a general conclusion cannot be drawn.

HOWEVER.

In my area, there is a direct connection between more gun ownership, more concealed carry, and more open carry - and lower violence. In the neighboring jurisdiction, they have a corresponding trend between less gun ownership, no concealed carry, no open carry - and higher violence.

So in my area, the connection is PROVEN. It just doesn't apply to the rest of the world.

Just as any opposite connection, however PROVEN locally, doesn't apply to the rest of the world.

Leave your gun control somewhere else - because we've proven that it doesn't work in Maryland and Virginia.
Listen, I have absolutely nothing against your argumentation here. I couldn't care less if there is or not gun control in Virgina, Florida, Canada or Luxembourg.

What I have a beef with is you claiming that it is a proven fact all over the world that blah blah blah. It's not. It has been observed in some regions that yes and in some regions that no. You don't hold universal truth so stop talking like you do.

Nuance is the name of the game when it comes to arguing these things.

Listen, I have absolutely nothing against your argumentation here. I couldn't care less if there is or not gun control in Virgina, Florida, Canada or Luxembourg.

What I have a beef with is you claiming that it is a proven fact all over the world that blah blah blah. It's not. It has been observed in some regions that yes and in some regions that no. You don't hold universal truth so stop talking like you do.

Nuance is the name of the game when it comes to arguing these things.

Then you'll have to take back:

Studies show nevertheless that tougher gun control laws go hand in hand with lower crime rate. Your fact is dubious at best.

Then you'll have to take back:
How so?
Some studies indeed show that. Thereby disproving your point that is was a known fact that gun control doesn't help.
I'll grant you that I should have said *some* studies. Consider it edited...

WTF is a "neocon" (other than another stupid lefty buzzword?)
At its simplest, neoconservatives believe that the best way to world peace is through global American dominance. Almost every US administration since 1945 has had elements of the neocon philosophy in its policies, but the neocons have never been so prevalent as in the Bush administration.

At its simplest, neoconservatives believe that the best way to world peace is through global American dominance. Almost every US administration since 1945 has had elements of the neocon philosophy in its policies, but the neocons have never been so prevalent as in the Bush administration.

I thought the initial United Nations was a neocon idea.

from - http://************/52omw

WASHINGTON, Feb. 1 - Howard Dean emerged Tuesday as the almost assured new leader of the Democratic National Committee, as one of his main rivals quit the race and Democrats streamed to announce their support of a man whose presidential campaign collapsed one year ago.


WOOHOO! This is the best news since Nov.2!

The Democrats will move even further left, assuring themselves to be the minority party for a generation.

You don't really know very much about Dean, do you? Howard Dean's record is one of a fiscal conservative who supports gun rights and is, at best, a moderate Democrat. He opposed the war in Iraq, which is something true conservatives would have understood and done as well if they hadn't sold their souls to the Bushistas.

Let's not turn this into another "guns" thread.

The Democrats will move even further left, assuring themselves to be the minority party for a generation.
Dean is not a left-winger. And if the Dems want to move to the left, good for them. It's better that they have the spine to stand up for something rather than be Republicans-lite.

You don't really know very much about Dean, do you? Howard Dean's record is one of a fiscal conservative who supports gun rights and is, at best, a moderate Democrat. He opposed the war in Iraq, which is something true conservatives would have understood and done as well if they hadn't sold their souls to the Bushistas.

Read back in the thread and you'll find I'm a Republican who already knows this.

Read back in the thread and you'll find I'm a Republican who already knows this.

That's nice. I was replying to Reaganodia.